Favorite DLC campaign?
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Rain World Downpour
Favorite DLC campaign?
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Definitely Rivulet.
fpbp
Awesome movement. Turning one of the most stressful mechanics into one of the best. Neat, short-lived gimmick (that I honestly wish I could use more). Cool areas. The initial challenge is mitigated after a certain point, signalling progress and catharsis.
Rivulet is simply well-designed, balanced and fun. Rivulet is also cutest slugcat. uwu
Rivulet.
Currently getting mad at Saint for trapping me in the Farm arrays because there's no fricking food anywhere and I'm forced to wait for deer every time I die.
with the new map additions you can skip all of the deer sections
i wrote up an essay on why i think saint is moronic and cringe
https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/view/+VQ+mLmf6gcwHn37wXlb3yqe1dnm1gNoMbRX+aTRlVE/
let me know your thoughts. i'll keep posting this as the threads die out
have a nice day
you're welcome to argue anything that i wrote. or maybe you're just a moron yourself and bandwagon the game because, well we all know
How can you write an entire essay about Rainworld lore without knowing anything about Buddhism.
The entire Saint's plot significance is someone with a slightly better knowledge of Buddhism looking at the original lore and say "This is stupid and not Buddhism, a Bodhisattva comes in and cleans everything up to reset the setting to 0."
nobody cares when the ideas and themes presented in the game are what they are. it doesn't have to be buddhism exactly, and a bodhisattva existing, especially as a slugcat and in the context of the world, is moronic
Bretty gud, anon
thank you sir. funnily enough i thought about posting it in the discord because they have that meme about writing a 5 page essay on saint, but the discord is a cesspool and somehow worse than this place so
Your essay is posted to Ganker where everyone will suck your wiener and it'll never be seen by the actual developers. Congrats, moron.
is it impossible for some random person on here to read it and argue? is it my problem if anybody who actually cares enough to read it and discuss stuff like this actually agrees with me? post it yourself in the discord then, i'm not touching that place
So much of this is spent arguing shit that you just misunderstood. Saint is not an Echo. You go on a fricking multi-paragraph long tangent about how it makes no sense that he is an echo and you are correct, he is not an echo. We saw the process of what its like to become an echo (Artificer) Saint is quite explicitly not an echo, he is something new. The final dialogue from Moon to Saint, "What have you become?" the final dialouge from 5P to Saint, "What a horrifying destiny you've found." Does this sound like he simply became an echo to you?
but he is? otherwise his end art wouldn't explicitly show him as an echo (literally same appendages, same color scheme and scales, everything) and his ending scene wouldn't have the same echo ripple effects. if you want to argue that he "isn't an echo," then tell me what he is, because there's a lot more to show that he IS one than isn't
>then tell me what he is
I just told you, he became something new. Just because he shares some visual elements as echoes doesn't mean he is the same kind of echo as the ones we meet. The ancient echos lost their shape entirely and just became tentacle balls. The Saint keeps its original shape, indicating, in my opinion, that unlike every other echo it still retains control and isn't just a floating orb occasionally monologuing at rodents. Even Moon is literally asking, "WHAT have you become?"
>there are now different kinds of echoes... for reasons
The plot is so convoluted now. Vanilla Rain World was clean and elegant. Shit mod, shit character
is that all you got? I thought this was going to be an actual discussion. Sad!
>bro just uncritically accept the mangling of the lore by inferior writers bro
Shut up homosexual. It's your job to justify them in a thematically resonant way.
>vanilla rain world story
>good
>elegantly written
It was already written by morons who cannot grasp basic Buddhism and wrote shit full of holes and leaps of logic. Anyone praising a game on its story is a ficking moron.
We both know you don't read books or have ever studied Buddhism in any real capacity, don't larp.
I accept your concession.
>plot holes!!!
>muh basic logic!!!!
Cinemasins-tier. Reddit Black person
Explain death and cycles.
Explain why a way of suicide as moronic as what Five Pebbles does was even a thought.
Explain why a small moronic slugcat, and slightly more intelligent mammal, can even ascend despite gameplay not supporting it in any sense regarding abandoning the Natural Urges.
Only a few of the issues with the """""plot""""" you pseuds like to jack off to.
>didn't even understand the plot
>explain it back to me
lol
moron
is it that farfetched to think Moon is taken aback that saint is in some limbo state, half ethereal, half corporeal, like other echoes? five pebbles' dialogue isn't really proof either, "what a horrifying destiny" can literally just refer to being an echo since it IS a shit and horrifying destiny. also, the ancients still mostly looked like that if you look at the art of the karma murals, they all had those long ass snouts and the echoes have legs that are curled up.
but ok, he's something completely new rather than what we already know that's in line with the story and all the evidence we see. he's a different, special echo
lol
also, even if he is some special echo, it literally would not matter since he'd still have to become one in the first place, which doesn't make any sense as per my essay. so whatever
I'm surprised you didn't mention the reddit Echo who tells Saint to just appreciate the present bro :'*~~))
i did, sort of
>I did not have the will to depart, not the desire. Why did they always search for escape, as if we were imprisoned? What offering from the void could usurp the gift of life already given?
this is part of that echo's dialogue. i think that entire echo is really dumb but i wanted to focus on this part specifically. but yes, i do think having some rebel echo who goes against the natural urge of every living creature and the culture of its civilization to say "nuh uh, LIFE is what it's all about" is dumb (as if the ancients didn't appreciate life and its experiences, see farm arrays echo and lore pearl about echo ascending and leaving behind memories)
ancient ascending, not echo ascending* my bad
Original game's themes were too austere for the Black person homosexual reddit troony audience. The SAME thing happened with Attack on Titan and Armin's "just like... go to the park and play catch with your bros, bro :''''')" no jutsu. I hate the media landscape so much, man. There is nothing out there for my sensibilities. Where is MY representation you Black folk?
Make your own game then.
It's the Japanese understanding of the samsara cycle. That's why nihilism is so common an enemy in JRPGs, and why they always spout the "just hard work bro, and life will be great ;)" and the "bro, life is just, cool, just like, live!" messages because they hate the end state of Buddhism and the afterlife of Shintoism was not very optimistic either.
What's the afterlife of shintoism like? I know about the cave myth but thats about it. Is it just some dank hell like orphism?
>is it that farfetched to think Moon is taken aback that saint is in some limbo state, half ethereal, half corporeal, like other echoes?
I mean kinda yeah? I'd consider her reaction strange if Saint was just an echo. Again, if he is like all other echoes, why is she asking him what he has become? Echoes have been a thing since the beginning of time for Iterators and were the main reason why they were created in the first place. She seems genuinely baffled, not as much taken aback in a concerned kind of way. Again, same logic goes to 5P's choice of words. If he were an echo, you'd think one of them would have simply said something along those lines. Considering how much knowledge they had at that given moment, with how much they were able to see, there is no way they would be that taken aback if Saint were just another echo.
And I mean, what exactly is wrong with Saint being a "special" echo? Echoes are created when a creature fails to fully ascend due to some karmic failing. Saint had no such karmic failing, as why he is labeled "The Saint" he chose instead to reject ascension. A fully attuned karmic being rejecting ascension had never happened before. This is what makes him "special."
the dialogue of moon and fp i'll just say is left up to interpretation. even before i wrote the essay, when i first read it and then did the ending i thought they were just referencing the fact that saint is an echo stuck in some time loop. so i'm gonna agree to disagree because i just can't see it your way
as for the second point, you're right in that he had no karmic failing, and presumably no ego issues either (a slugcat having an ego, lol). so then how did he reject ascension the FIRST time? his powers don't make sense unless they're directly echo related, and so he wouldn't have had them and been able to ascend the void worm. so then what?
>a slugcat having an ego, lol
I'm going to bed after this but I mean is THIS that farfetched? We see slugcats make drawings on walls. If they are able to draw, they are much more intelligent than your average rodent. Slugcats have a decent base-level intelligence and aren't just a dumb rodent running around acting on instincts. Even the original game implies their high level of intelligence.
The main end-game goal of the original game is just to sit and listen to Moon tell you stories. Even without the drawing shit Downpour added at the end of Gourmand, I think this is already implying Slugcats are genuinely intelligent creatures capable of curiosity. Slugcat isn't brining Moon pearls just because they are shiny, he is brining her pearls because he wants to learn as much as he can about the world.
Anyways I know thats sort of off topic but I just thought you saying that was interesting because I think especially with DP slugcats are implied to be pretty decently evolved creatures intelligence-wise, even moreso than scavs. I think a sluggo having an ego issue is actually kind of feasible based on what we know about them even before Downpour, but especially with Downpour.
the intelligence is a good point but it's hard to imagine them having a pompous ego so vast and great that they are refused ascension. i mean it's shown that the ancients had pretty large egos themselves but i think it's safe to assume that the majority of them were able to ascend, otherwise we'd have quite a few more echoes. plus, saint isn't shown having this trait at all, unlike gourmand with his fat ass and artificer with his hellbent revenge plot, so i do think it's a bit farfetched.
>saint isn't shown having this trait at all
i know we agree with each other at least that Saint is in fact a Saint. I don't like this idea that he committed some sin of ego (gay), and that put him in an eternal karmic loop, (even gayer). He wouldn't be called the Saint if he weren't the fricking Saint. Personally I believe that the Saint CHOSE his fate. 5P does use the wording," What a horrifying destiny you've FOUND." implying to me that this is something the Saint at least discovered himself. To me this is what Saint ascending the void worm mainly symbolizes, this is something Saint originally chose. Also I do not believe that Saint became an echo, or if he did he is clearly not like the other echoes. The justification for why he is not like the other echoes is that he is karmically attuned yet rejected ascension. I think we see this actually happening when we see him karma blast the void worm. As for how he originally got the power to ascend other creatures which would be crucial to his ability to reject ascension? I have no fricking idea.
your last sentence is why i have an issue with it. whether saint is specifically an echo or not doesn't matter much at the end of the day because in my essay my main problem is that saint got to that point in the first place when it makes absolutely no sense at all. the devs just did whatever they felt like without actually thinking about how it ties into the world.
honestly, thinking about it more, and considering the inclusion of challenge 70 despite being non-canon, i wouldn't be surprised if the original vision WAS saint being sliver's solution, and that she created it to go on a mission to ascend every other iterator. i like getting closure for sliver, but i think the idea is ultimately dumb
saint is just a mess man
Dead on, Americans are brainlet subhumans so they can ONLY interpret spirituality as zealotry, ie jrpg bullshit. Downpour sucks
I'm a dum dum when it comes to lore, but I read through the essay and the discussion and I have some questions:
Would it make sense for Saint to have some sort of a cardinal and impossible to get rid of sin that doesn't allow him to ascend? Presuming he was born with some defect that made him unable to ascend, would that explain why he then tries way more than any other slugcat to ascend and still fails? I'm not saying this explanation makes sense, as I don't know what the sin could be, but if there was such a sin, would the rest make sense?
It seems to me that Void Worms and Echoes are different but similar in some ways. Could it be that Saint is more like a Void Worm rather than an Echo or am I just moronic here?
Lastly, when it comes to understanding Downpour lore, I am not sure on what the motives of the developers were when they writing it. Do you think that there is some sort of a logical explanation, good or bad, to why he exists and what the ending means, or do you think that it's enough to say that everything that happened was just really poorly thought out? I'm not here to say that the writers are perfect and I can see why things like the echo dialogue you mentioned in the essay are stupid, but the Saint campaign doesn't seem like it's a mistake but moreso that they decided not to explain everything, such as why Saint is in a loop when he's so attuned.
Dev commentary confirms he's stuck in a karmic loop. Look, you can't cross the absolute horizon of life and experience what is on the other side because you're outside of experience by definition. You can't cross the Limit of your subjectivity and rejoice on the other side that you are finally free; 'you' have been abolished as a matter of fact.
The Saint is an organism that HAS done that, and for some reason in the Rain World universe, it gives him the power to ascend all beings. He is like the electron that is both wave and particle, he exists in a superposition of states. You can read about some of these concepts in Lacan.
Of course, instead of leaning into this in an evocative and thought-provoking way, the Black person troony modders settled for dude loops lmao. Make of that what you will
hey thanks for reading, i'll go over your points one by one
1) i'm not exactly sure what sort of device it would even have to be to prevent saint from ascending. hunter is technically born with a defect but is able to ascend (well, i guess that's based on how you interpret its ending). as for a sin, the 5 natural urges the karma symbols represent parallel shit like the 7 sins, so i don't really think there could be anything untold that would prevent the saint from ascension. but technically, if for example the saint was so horny and hellbent on fricking every female slugcat, yes it wouldn't be able to ascend. artificer cannot because of its wrath, so being held back because of a "sin" (natural urge) is of course possible. though, again, saint doesn't exhibit any of these traits. so i don't know
2) void worms and echoes aren't similar at all. echoes are just beings that failed ascension and so are stuck in some sort of limbo state in the world. we really have no clue what void worms are and what they're capable of beyond being what i imagine to be guides into ascension? they live in the void sea, seem to evaluate you, then drag you all the way down. you raise an interesting point in that the void worms' abilities and saint's line up with ascension. but i don't think saint becomes a void worm, i think there'd be more parallels and evidence, along with the ending being different. as it stands, with the save file art, and the ending scenes, i think it's clear the saint becomes an echo (or echo-like being as someone argued earlier)
i'll continue in another post
Thanks for the answers. One question I have is that I'm not sure what makes you say that Saint chooses to ascend. Again, I'm probably a moron that missed something in the ending or in this discussion, but if you post your essay tomorrow, you could also explain what makes you think he chooses to ascend, since, at least for me, it's not clear that he does.
And if he does, perhaps after becoming an echo, he realizes how much the world sucks and comes back to ascend them? However, as he cannot do so for every creature, he just keeps coming back to try again?
3) i guess this is just person preference. how you interpret the story and whether you think it's good and fits with base rain world. remember, this dlc started off as a mod, made by fans, so for all intents and purposes it literally is just fanfiction made canon. i think that when creating all these campaigns, especially the saint's, they wanted to create stuff that was unique, and would advance the story in more obvious and extreme ways (rivulet and saint have very drastic world changes and rivulet's campaign interacts with the story in very direct ways, sort of like hunter but even moreso). and i think they just didn't have enough time or didn't care enough to reflect further and try and think about things more once it got picked up as official dlc. the devs have stated in the discord that you can think of all the dlc campaigns as alternate universe stories if you want, but that just seems like a cop out for lazy writing to me.
i just realized i didn't fully answer your first question. i think you are misinterpreting saint's campaign as trying to ascend. it's not stuck in a time loop out of its inability to ascend. it's CHOOSING not to ascend, it makes a conscious choice at the end to ascend the void worm and start the loop over again. why? we don't know, and there's nothing even really up for interpretation since it's so random. but it not being able to ascend in the first place because of some cardinal sin wouldn't change the story in any way. it still becomes an echo, it still gains ascension powers, it still rejects ascension at the end. again though, we won't fully know the saint's real mission or anything like that. but i'm sure that it's not actually about normal ascension like the other slugcats, just doomed to fail over and over again
anyways, essayanon signing off and going to bed. if there's a new thread up tomorrow, i'll post my essay again and we can continue discussion. or feel free to post it and share it yourself, idrc. let the discorders seethe about it if that's what you want
Nobody cares
None of them. Only Survivor is canon, everything else, including Monk and Hunter, are OC memecat non-canon garbage.
everyone agrees theyre not canon and not as interesting in plot but theyre exceptionally fun gameplay wise and thats why people care
>everyone agrees
Horseshit. They're canon because they're official, and if you got in contact with the original Videocult devs they'd say so too. You can cope all you want but Downpour is canon.
>ratio world
What are you even supposed to do as Gourmand
go to five pebbles then go west
eat b***h
>Pain world
>Playing as gourmand
>Sky islands
>Wanders for 15 minutes (extended cycle)
>vulture fricks
>escape from them and get to the big corridors
>dead end (1 floor below from the height required to the jump
>go back
>misses the stupidest easiest jump in the game
>dies
Why do i even play this game?
how the frick do i get through unfortunate development i've had it up to here with being nigged by these spiders
Get good or go back and go through the Underhang
ascend
i keep trying to do this but one of the fricking wall spiders just decides to reenact its favourite tentacle doujin every time i reach the top screen there and it's driving me insane
Go back and find the way to recursive transformer arrays. No one deserves to suffer through unfortunate development.
You'll know you're getting close when you start seeing the bug zapper looking things.
Reminder that it's impossible to discuss Rain World from now on
>Ganker despises the mod, muh loops, "diluted art", OC slugcats, etc
>official Discord is dominated by trannies and homosexuals who won't shut up about how slugcats are nonbinary they/thems
>OG Videocult devs post Five Pebbles gay catboy shit on their own Twitter, showing even they don't really care about how their game is perceived
It's over.
1st time playing the game. Went up through the sky islands and around though the farm arrays and somehow ended up back in the outskirts where I've already been and now I have no idea where the FRICK I'm going. I'm not asking for help. Just posting my blog is all. The game is neat but definitely a bit tedious in my opinion.
I finally completed Gourmand's food quest and now I'm on Artificer. So is this just "Born to Die" mode?
Only if you are bad at the game, else you will die less.
world is a frick
410,757,864,530 DEAD SCAVS
i made it through the hellhole, i have no idea if the red worm things were deadly afterwards but i somehow made it through unscathed
what the FRICK is this game
>i have no idea if the red worm things were deadly afterwards
I thought the same thing my first time through and I was so stressed out by the time I finally got to 5P. Turns out they're not actually dangerous, they're like floating ropes you can grab.
not surprising considering the first time you encounter them there's danger music because of a tentacle shitter hidden on a different room separated by pipes
bros what the frick is going on
Well, what does it look like is going on?
this bit was nice, but god i hate the chimney canopy, that and i genuinely have no idea what to do after meeting five pebbles, do i go back to looks to the moon and throw one of the neurons i picked up over at his place at her?
That'd be a good place to start.
sure, or follow his advice. if you don't remember the dialogue, look on the wiki, it's like one or two lines. there's not much to do at moon unless you want to lore hunt
he mentioned going west, but i'm not sure if that means i need to go further west beyond the wall or head down from these hellish sky zones and then go west
... as i wrote that i realized how moronic i am, i'll just warp back to the top of the wall and make my way westward
you're in chimney canopy, you're fine. just head west! unless you do want to give moon the neuron
you got it anon, just gonna pass the frick out so i can wageslave away tomorrow before i pick it up again, i really appreciate the advice you guys have given me
good luck bros
slug cat sexxo
I think saint is a cool little dude and I enjoyed his campaign.
have a nice day, troony.
play the game, Black person.
i did, downpour is a disaster and ruined everything good that was left since the 1.0 release.
I highly doubt you actually enjoyed playing the game to begin with.
That's a good image. Fluffy.
hot take
arguing with no one in particular about how twitter/discord has ruined rain world discussions has done more damage to rain world discussions than the aforementioned
That's a pretty lukewarm take, honestly. I'm pretty sure any reasonable person would agree with you.
>bargain bin Buddhism
>amerimutts go insane and think it's the deepest shit and the most meaningful game they've ever played
Rise up, NirvanaCHADS, we won.
It isn't, it's just refreshing to see in the medium. Sick of you homosexual nerds who act like anything less than the game namedropping Nagarjuna and Bodhidharma means it's "bargain bin." You don't know how to tell stories
It's bargain bin because it is extremely common for games, especially shit out of Japan, to include cycles and reincarnation shit and then do nothing with it. Games only ever take the samsara cycle then do nothing with it. To Rain World's credit, they include the asceticism and transcendence part but also go to lengths showing the Ancients as morons who somehow ascended despite fricking over anything and everything else.
Read the pearls, moron. It's anything but bargain bin.
Got filtered for the second time. The first time I played 2 hours and quit for 2 years, now I played 15ish, got to 5P, got to chimney canopy (to go down, I don't have a teleport) and I'm so fricking bored. I'm sorry fellow slugcats I failed you all
you were supposed to go left, not down. fruity pebbles even told you to keep going left
I met moon already if that's what you're telling me to do
left. go LEFT
Your other left.
Where can I find a cyan lizard as Gourmand? I've been to every zone BUT didn't see one, and murdering blue lizards over and over isn't making them spawn yet.
industrial i think. probably pipeyard as well
Thanks m8 I'll try there
one on the precipice too
what's the deal with the precipice anyway, it's so small
meant to connect fp and moon in spearmaster's campaign. that's literally it. i'm pretty sure not even hunter is able to use it properly
You aren't coming to it at the right time.
I've figured it out! Saint contains void fluid. That's why he can gravitybomb things.
please stop making exact equivalents between a real world religion and a fictional alien video game world's cosmology before i die of an aneurysm
From the people that brought you catboy five pebbles.. (not really)
I love bullying lizards
Good shit, anon.
Continued saint propaganda.
I think there is a misunderstanding of Saint's theme of being an echo. The final seconds of their ending shows their original form, something that the other echoes can't or don't do. Even if you are quick to cry non-canon challenge 70 is a scenario that ties up the lore pretty neatly. It is not far-fetched to imagine Saint on a repeating journey to release iterators from the cycles and let life move on as Moon describes.
it's not crying non-canon, it literally isn't, it was stated by the devs. whether you agree with it or not doesn't matter
also, if saint was sliver's solution, why did she fight it, and why didn't she detail it in her broadcast. if it wasn't, then how did she broadcast it in the first place, and where the hell did saint come front
Before the killing blow there is a stage where she repeats a two word phrase in iterator speak. You don't need to know where Saint comes from, just that they parallel the Buddha's journey towards enlightenment. Once enlightened they spread their teachings (in this scifi world where karma is quantified) by forcefully mindblasting your spirit past the rubicon.
this buddha interpretation is moronic
Yeah, just ignore all the themes at play anon. Even if the devs didn't 100% have it all penned out it's not too hard to see the artistic direction. I'm sorry the void ocean and cycles are too ambiguous for you.
Dude what the Saint doesn't parallel the Buddha's journey, the Buddha searched for an end to the miseries of aggregated existence by visiting teachers, starving himself, and eventually, sitting down and shutting the frick up until he untied the knot of desire.
How much more kino would the ending have been if we just got a time lapse of all the cans breaking down over thousands/millions of years as it's implied that Saint was successful in his mission.
The same Black person troony homosexuals who complained about the ending of the second Ori games are the reason why the devs/modders could not commit to a definitive ending
>How much more kino would the ending have been if we just got a time lapse of all the cans breaking down over thousands/millions of years as it's implied that Saint was successful in his mission.
Thats what happens but without the time lapse of cans breaking. The ending shot is of all of the cans broken down in the distance. What the do you think that is implying?
And then Saint wakes up where he started. It's gay. If we got the GLOBAL counterpart to Survivor's PERSONAL ascension then it would have been the perfect capstone to the 'saga.' Instead we got.... bro you ever seen Looper????
>mindbroken by looper
the cans could just have degraded from time rather than saint's ascension. iterators can't maintain their cans themselves. why would the saint start in the local region upon a reset of the time loop if they had travelled so extremely far to the other iterators?
This is some bullshit
How did you get there? That's a mod, right?
It's challenge 56.
Yeah, im on it. Already got a 80 point run and another 75.
Ah, I see. I was just confused since that's the original name for Rubicon.
Ah that challenge took me a little while. The trick is to grab some firebug bombs and camp the lava pits. I once got 65 points with one eggbomb because a bunch of red lizards just fell right on in. Seriously the eggbombs are fricking nuts, use them.
Finally got it. Just got #69 to do before I unlock the final challenge I've heard so much about.
What is the intended route to take as Rivulet? I got to 5p via the wall, got the power cell, but taking either way through the underhang seems impossible and I don't want to have to go back through 5p to get out.
You go back through 5p to get out. And/Or passage out, if you have one.
what's the easiest route to get to Moon after I leave 5p then? I've already fricked myself multiple times with DLC cats by taking routes that clearly weren't intended.
Easiest? Passage out.
If you don't have one of those, though, CC>Industrial>Shaded>Shoreline, assuming you can meet the I>SC karma requirement (5) and have a lamp.
Replace shaded with garbage wastes if you don't meet those requirements.
Going shoreline to industrial, I know you can get through (almost all of) shaded citadel in a single cycle as riv, so I'm pretty sure it should be the same the other way around too.
hi
Never played rainworld before, can I play as any as the DLC characters on my first playthrough? If so is there any reason I shouldnt?
Yes, but you need to unlock them in the menu. (Otherwise, you have to finish base to unlock.)
Technically, it makes some things more impactful in the DLC cats if you play base first - they're fully-fledged campaigns, not just character swaps.
only play survivor your first playthrough. After that, you can play anything you want.
Survivor -> Hunter -> Spearmaster -> Artificer -> Rivulet -> Saint -> Gourmand -> Survivor/Monk Encore is my recommendation.
any route tips to complete the gourmand eating quest.
eaten everything on citadel currently at shore line looking for that smoke screen squid.
I don't think I've ever seen any hazers in shoreline (maybe someone else has?), but I have seen at least one in Industrial.
There are two hazers in shoreline but they're just so pointlessly out of the way.
can't you just regurgitate/craft hazers then eat them? that's how it was with lily pads for me
you HAVE been taking notes and compiling a crafting chart, right?
jesus christ Echoes are literally pretas, beings bound to the world by their nostalgia for sensual life after death. The parallels aren't supposed to be clear but no, bodhisattvas are not pretas or Echoes in the same sense
Obviously most Echoes are supposed to be Pretas but coming back as an Echo after rejecting the Ascension is the solution to the iterator's problem. The Saint may have willing came back because that shit isn't true Enlightment and he just slammed the door shut to others trying to go down that path.