As a big "Elric saga", "Eternal Darkness" "Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell " fan, I love the Warlock concept of "getting your powers from some evil being" and I also used to play Warlock on my Wow years ago.
I love the concept of a Dark magic user, edgy and willing to do anything for power, compared to the nerdy and academic thing wizard got going on.
While wizard has crystals and shinny things, Warlocks get candles, tomes and magic sigils.
So I really hate how popular the meme "Warlocks get their power from a sugar daddy" got and how it damaged people's views on the archetype.
Most people see Warlocks as just a dude who got some dark powers in a deal. And I don't think that's a good or strong archetype.
So to me, what should be done to fix the sad state warlocks are is:
-Ditch Charisma, a guy who deals with evil or unknowable beings and is covered in slime or brimstome SHOULD NOT be the face. Besides Wizards are the only Int class in 5e so this would fix that unbalance.
-Int fits more the theme of someone who makes pacts and summons fey/demons, historically those things were "done" by old magicians and not charming sexy guys.
-Make so that the Warlock pact is hard to come by, rare and unusual. Every Warlock is someone who made a pact but not everyone who make pacts are warlocks, some farmer who sold his soul to not starve in the winter is not a warlock, he is just a devil worshiper or someone who made a bad supernatural deal when no other option was available. The Warlock pact is an special pact that only someone versed in demon/devil/far realms/fey lore would know how to do (reinforcing the int aspect).
-Re-fluff the pact itself, it's not just a simple contract, it's the deluxe package where the Patron get a part of their "infinite power spark" so Archdevils and the like are not that happy doing this sort of pact and this is the reason they don't do so often, they still have infinite power befiting an archfiend or archfey or whatever, but it's less infinite now, how that work is best left to the sages... But empowering an warlock takes a great price to the Patron so the pact must be good since it's a gamble and a great risk.
-Contextualize the cantrip "Eldrich blast"
There is no avoiding it, Eldrich blast is not a core part of the warlock identity in D&D, but it often reduces this dark and brooding dark magic user to a gloried arcane archer, blasting the same spell over and over again. So if we go with the fluff that the pact consists in the patron severing part of their "spark" and sealing it in the Warlock's body (similar to the Dragonhear movie) and now the warlock has a fragment of infinite ever burning spark of power, we could explain Eldrich blast as the "excess energy residual" of the spark, since the spark is there glowing and radiating the extra radiation generated by it can be redirated as blast, and since it's infinite and ever burning (unlike other magical sources) the warlock can cast it without limits over and over again.
-Make the powers permanent.
Once the spark and the soul are merged, that's it. It's onde, it can't be undone, that soul is empowered a small portion with of infinite forever. Even if the patron dies, even if the patron loses it's position of power, even if the patron betrays or changes sides against the warlock. It's done. It can't be undone. Some Devils may teach evil fire spells to naive evil wizard and the wizards would soon realize that those spells DON'T affect their former mentors, the same DOESN'T happen with Warlocks, if they want to use their new found powers against their former masters they can.
-The spark and soul merge remains even if they die and become a lost soul or a being form other planes, it's for existence, some savvy patrons may stipulate some contract classes to revert the process, but is rare to find a warlock who would fall for that, and the process itself is very complicated to reverse.
-Make the process rare, special and dangerous.
All those new facts make the pact a lot more complicated to the patron, and you could even play with the meaning of the word Warlock. A lot of people associate that word as simply "male witch" but the original meaning of the word is "Oathbreaker" so we could play this as two things, mortals breaking the unspoken oath of not dealing with devils, demons, fey and beings from the far realms but as well as the potencial for the Warlocks to betray their patrons and use the powers of the pact to their own goals.
-Make the Warlock an asset.
So why would a patron make a pact? Well, that mortal must be very cunning, intelligent and versed in forbidden lore to the point of being viewed by their patron as potencial asset and not a liability. Not someone to trust but someone with the potencial to do much if only they had a little... Spark.
In the end the ideia is to make the Warlock not a hot sexy guy who failed at real magic but a master of dark magic and lore who learned via forbidden tomes and dreams the right incantations to force some great power to fuse his soul with theirs. This connection now empowers him to greatness.
He is ruthless, smart, ambitions and will do anything for MORE POWER.
>Make the powers permanent.
>Once the spark and the soul are merged, that's it. It's onde, it can't be undone, that soul is empowered a small portion with of infinite forever.
This is literally how it already works. A warlock whose powers can be taken away by pissing off sky daddy is just a goddamn Cleric. Once bestowed a patron's power cannot be revoked, otherwise every goddamn Fiend patron would just immediately renege and frick over the people who made a deal. The patron's power can't be taken away anymore than a bard's college professor can show up and revoke his degree in music theory. Warlocks bargain for powerful and dangerous knowledge from powerful and dangerous sources (even celestials are still powerful and dangerous) and once learned cannot be unlearned.
The gays who try to take away warlock powers is merely the 5e continuation of the "That Guy DM" trend of forcing Paladins to fall in earlier editions. But now paladins are powered by narcissism and personal oaths specifically because people got sick of arguments and "YOUR PALADIN FALLS!" situations. So now those same people just try to do the same with warlock
>This is literally how it already works. A warlock whose powers can be taken away by pissing off sky daddy is just a goddamn Cleric. Once bestowed a patron's power cannot be revoked.
Is that so? Can I ask a source on this? Since it's not in the players book, it's even stated that this could happen in 3.5 and it's implied in Baldur's gate 3 which will shape many people's ideas on how Warlocks work (damn you Wyll).
Literally the Player's Handbook but it's also been repeatedly and explicitly stated over the years since.
>Warlocks are seekers of the knowledge that lies hidden in the fabric of the multiverse. Through pacts made with mysterious beings of supernatural power, warlocks unlock magical effects both subtle and spectacular. Drawing on the ancient knowledge of beings such as fey nobles, demons, devils, hags, and alien entities of the Far Realm, warlocks piece together arcane secrets to bolster their own power.
A Warlock's Invocations don't even come from the patron, either, which is something many people ignore or purposefully play otherwise, that's why every warlock has access to every invocation, they're fragments of forbidden knowledge the warlock has sought out on their own. Your celestial Patron is not the one granting you the tomb of levistus and beast speech.
>PHB p105
>In your study of occult lore, you have unearthed eldritch invocations, fragments of forbidden knowledge that imbue you with an abiding magical ability.
>Pact Magic PHB p105
>Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1221978854119460866?lang=en
>A D&D warlock isn't required to be on good terms with their patron. They made a magical transaction, and now the warlock has power.
>The patron can't take away abilities, but will likely send agents or omens to harass/punish
https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/693243514423873536
Warlocks are not just "cleric, but with a shittier and weaker god."
Clerics are divine casters. Warlocks are arcane casters. Compare warlocks with the Cleric PHB description.
>Harnessing divine magic doesn't rely on study or training. A cleric might learn formulaic prayers and ancient rites, but the ability to cast cleric spells relies on devotion and an intuitive sense of a deity's wishes.
Warlocks seek out knowledge. Clerics get down on their knees and pray.
are seekers of the knowledge that lies hidden in the fabric of the multiverse. Through pacts made with mysterious beings of supernatural power, warlocks unlock magical effects both subtle and spectacular. Drawing on the ancient knowledge of beings such as fey nobles, demons, devils, hags, and alien entities of the Far Realm, warlocks piece together arcane secrets to bolster their own power.
This does not spell out the idea that they are not directly empored by their patron, which is in my view the most (moronic) common intrepratation.
Glad to know it's not the case, but it doesn't hurt to re-interate that in my refluff. Adressing a common and moronic interpretation is important even if it's not official.
Thanks anon.
>and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells.
This right here is what confuses most people I think, this and dumb youtubers.
Still all this study doesn't strike me CHA as their most important skill, don't you agree anon. I think this may be yet another cause for confusing.
They should be int casters with this studying, arcane power and reading.
>Still all this study doesn't strike me CHA as their most important skill
Frankly there's decent arguments to be made for all three mental stats.
>Wisdom is used for perception and mental fortitude to resist hostile influence, and an arcane wisdom caster is an unfulfilled niche, if they're meant to be literally seeking out and finding lost scraps of knowledge in forbidden ruins and shit the ability score for Perception fits.
>Given the repeated emphasis on knowledge, research, and study, Intelligence makes sense and allows you to be a lovecraftian hermit piling up forbidden times and peering at outer gods as your mind unravels with forbidden secrets, Investigation and Arcana are also INT based and the patron literally teaching you makes it a learned skill
>Bards are ALSO taught formal magical education at bardic colleges in the way warlocks are tutored by a patron, and are Charisma based, and Charisma is also force of personality and ego, and is used to resist banishment and possession. Charisma is also useful for the process of NEGOTIATING a pact even if it maybe doesn't fit with the subsequent study and research, but then again Bards literally have a fricking degree, also fits with silver tongued devil and enchanting fae stereotypes.
the OneD&D play test ran into this same conundrum and in one iteration made Warlock a "choose your key ability score" class the way martials can pick STR or DEX for their DCs as a battlemaster and shit. They walked this back and just went with CHA in the end, in the DNDNext testing for warlock they were INT based before being changed to CHA to match 3.5 as well. I think if you consider the patron's tutelage equivalent to a bardic college (and bardic knowledge) that CHA is a "fine" compromise as long as you keep in mind Beholders and Pit Fiends have high charisma, it's ego and strength of soul as much as it is being confident or hot or whatever
>Wisdom
There is nothing wise to selling your soul to devils or demons, getting ANYWHERE NEAR the fey or even THINKING about the far realms. If anything wisdom should BE the lowest stat for Warlocks as a rule.
>There is nothing wise to selling your soul to devils or demons, getting ANYWHERE NEAR the fey or even THINKING about the far realms
okay, what about being wise enough to secure infinity years of peace and happiness in the afterlife by bargaining with a Solar, or having the good sense to know it's fricking moronic to spend 40 years studying magic in a tower and being reliant on a spell book that can be lost or stolen when you could just marry a noble eladrin who'll teach her husband how to hack reality?
Literally straight from the PHB
>Stories of warlocks binding themselves to fiends are widely known. But many warlocks serve patrons that are not fiendish. Sometimes a traveler in the wilds comes to a strangely beautiful tower, meets its fey lord or lady, and stumbles into a pact without being fully aware of it.
>What kind of relationship do you have with your patron? Is it friendly, antagonistic, uneasy, or romantic? How important does your patron consider you to be? What part do you play in your patron's plans? Do you know other servants of your patron?
"I found a noble genie's lamp and pulled an Aladdin freeing him/her from their prison in exchange for being taught magic and gifted a bellydancing sprite familiar" is a perfectly valid warlock pact. What about that strikes you as unwise?
"I'm literally in an ongoing romantic and sexual relationship with one of Corellon Larethion's Empyrean daughters since that elven manprostitute can't keep it in his pants, she visits me in my dreams every night like a clingy girlfriend" is similarly valid (although everyone at the table will smack you)
>okay, what about being wise enough to secure infinity years of peace and happiness in the afterlife by bargaining with a Solar
Is it a bible accurate Solar?
>Charisma is also useful for the process of NEGOTIATING a pact even if it maybe doesn't fit with the subsequent study and research
I think magicla pacts are a lot more about true names, secrets, bindings and magical words and less like selling an used car.
>Warlocks are not just "cleric, but with a shittier and weaker god."
That's how most people play them. Granted most people are dumb. But still.
>They made a magical transaction, and now the warlock has power.
That makes 0 sense since the thing is clear on going as they keep getting new spells.
This just shows how this class concept is dumb and not well thought out.
>the thing is clear on going as they keep getting new spells
I can adress this in my refluff as the spark "growing" and adapting to the warlcok soul so he gets more and new powers.
>That makes 0 sense since the thing is clear on going as they keep getting new spells.
a bard also continues to get new spells as he levels up despite his bardic college education being in the past. warlocks and bards are taught a way to do magic, that knowledge can't be taken away (barring your patron sending a fricking intellect devourer or literally feebleminding you into a moron, of course, they aren't limited in prime material interference the way gods are, but also can't just turn off the faucet.)
I
>a bard also continues to get new spells as he levels up despite his bardic college education being in the past.
Not all bards need to go to bard school, and besides they can just use what they learned to experiment and make new discoveries but the CHA is more about the performance and not the information. Unlike Warlock who si all about info.
>that knowledge can't be taken away
That point was more about the new information, new secrets, You need your patron (and be in good terms with him) to get new secrets, while a abrd, once they know the basics of how to play a harp (what they leanr in school) they can explore and experiment.
Arcane secrets of the universe? Not so much,.
Warlock was always kindof a dumb class.
Whether you get turned into an artificial sorcerer, trained in arcane secrets, or granted spells by you sugar daddy who can taketh them away - every flavor of Warlock is better as a member of another caster class.
A pact should just be a minor ability you get as payment for a service performed. New service? New pact boon. Treat it as an invisible magic tattoo type item. 1/day SLA? Sure why not. +1 to DCs for one school? Sure. Etc.
Discard Warlock class, dole out its few original features to whomever.
Cleric / Sorcerer / Wizard / Bard of Mephistopheles? Ok.
Shut up and frick you.
Aww, muffin! Brilliant reply.
>Background or feats
Yeah pretty much. Or maybe pact subclasses for all kinds of classes.
>Give sorcerer the short rest casting.
Eh. I'm alright without it. Not like 5e has a bunch of alt. magic systems. We didn't get 5e psionics or 5e mtg mana-channel-casting. But sure, if you like.
I do agree the sorcerer/wizard divide is pretty flimsy once *nobody* prepares their spells anymore.
I will say that within 5e, Warlock is good for being a distinct form of spellcaster, being based around cantrips, at-will spells, and short rests, rather than just having the same progression as every other full caster.
But flavor wise, it would be much better to shift those mechanics to Sorcerer to make it more distinct from Wizard, and then make Warlock into some sort of background or feat chain that could represent more specific pacts/boons.
Or they just take the arcane secrets given to them and use them as the basis for further study and development. Otherwise it'd be like learning French in high school and being completely unable to expand your knowledge of French grammar and vocabulary once you graduate.
Again a lenaguage is commin knowlodge arcane secrets of the universe are not.
It's nit like those secrets can be just reiterated once learned. Ever heard of mystery cults in ancient times? They were build around this fact. Secret societies too.
It's NOT the same as a skill such as playing a lute, mining or glass making.
You can see by the reactions to those tweets those are not common interpretations at all.
Everything regarding Wyll in BG3 revolves around his patron jerking him around by the strictures and stipulations of his pact to manipulate him. He's also far closer to the farmer who sold his soul to survive than a traditional D&D warlock, especially when compared to the PC warlock.
>-Make the powers permanent.
>Once the spark and the soul are merged, that's it.
I like this part. It reminds me of the magical pact in Drakengard.
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Why is anime stuff so cringe? Specially when it tries to do medieval stuff.
>Ditch Charisma, a guy who deals with evil or unknowable beings and is covered in slime or brimstome SHOULD NOT be the face. Besides Wizards are the only Int class in 5e so this would fix that unbalance.
Black person have you never heard of John Constantine? Even Elric was basically a fricking manprostitute and nobody could deny he had extraordinary force of personality, his official stats in Deities and Demigods gave him 18 fricking Charisma.
You would probably be better off making the freaky deep one fish fricker insular eldritch cultists and Cthulhu knockoffs a separate int-based class, like the Pathfinder Occultist, because Charisma is absolutely fitting for the Warlock archetype
>John Constantine
He doesn't have a connection with an evil being. He is literally a wizard from cape shit. A detective and would fit a Sorcerer a lot more than a Warlock as it stands on D&D lore.
>Even Elric was basically
An Sickly albino who was versed in lore and dark magic but could barely fight and comand his troops? Yes. And got healthy only via dark rituals and after getting Stormbringer via drinking the souls of his foes? Indeed. He was very intelligent but unwise and uncharismatic, literally an weirdo albino.
>Pathfinder Occultist
Isn't that a psionic (urg) clas s focused on items? It has nothing to do with anything. besides they don't get Eldrich blast which is a big part of the re-fluff to explain the use of a perfil blast of energy that can be used all the time. Which was the whole point of the refluff since that always bothered me.
Skyrim does has some good Warlock content with those Deadric princes or whatever they are called.
>Skyrim
Elder scrolls*
The fact int is not warlock casting stat is absurd.
Oh yeah darkest dungeon has some great Warlcok inspiration.
Fear and hunger too! Great game for the mood and inspiration.
They even got a celestial pact covered... A more dark twist to it.
Those aren't real DD comics you FAKER.
They are from mods. Very good mods.
>-Make so that the Warlock pact is hard to come by, rare and unusual. Every Warlock is someone who made a pact but not everyone who make pacts are warlocks, some farmer who sold his soul to not starve in the winter is not a warlock, he is just a devil worshiper or someone who made a bad supernatural deal when no other option was available. The Warlock pact is an special pact that only someone versed in demon/devil/far realms/fey lore would know how to do (reinforcing the int aspect).
Is this...not already the case?
PCs are inherently extraordinary people. They're the exceptions, the standouts. So fluffwise you're okay.
Ruleswise, there's not much to do to change class likelihood without going full WFRP career table.
>Let me rework from the ground-up an archetype that shouldn't be a standalone class to begin with
It's D&D having hyperspecific archetypes (barbarians, rangers, paladins, warlocks, bards, etc...) next to generic as vanilla ones (fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric, etc...) that lead to situations like yours OP.
It's all generic or all specific, not both.
Why?
You can have both using some artifice to make meaningful their distinction, for example in older d&d specific classes had more stringent requirements compared to generic ones. As is doesn't make sense for a barbarian to exist next to a fighter because what's the fighter supposed to represent? A gladiator? A man-at-arms? a samurai? Maybe, but only until a specific class for these archetypes gets introduced making the fighter more and more meaningless
That's a solution for having more targeted archetypes but you should do the same for all the other generic classes
I didn't mean to say warlocks shouldn't exist period, i mean that they doesn't make sense to exist next to more general archetypes.
>It's all generic or all specific, not both.
Wizard should be divided into a class for each school of magic. I'm not joking.
Technically they were in 2e; they weren't even kits, they were sort of subclasses.
Look at all the exemples I posted. There is more than enought precedent for Warlocks to be a dtand alone class and not be resuced to a feat.
Intimidation is charisma
My party's warlock picked skill expert for intimidation and it has been gorgeous.
He's def the party face, and creepy as hell