Say you've got a rifle with an effective range of about 300 meters, right? You're standing in an open field, with your gun, and you're prepared for Red Rocket, the speediest man in America, and you're gonna send a wave of bullets at him the moment he shows up. You prep an action to do a multi-attack at him, automatic fire, as soon as you see him - which you're guaranteed to since he doesn't hide as he's charging at you.
He shows up, you fire. He dodges every attack because his super speed lets him react to bullets almost as if they were standing still. He punches you in the fricking face, and then he's just GONE. He's a mile away already and you just blew a whole bunch of bullets for nothing. You do it again? Super reflexes. He dodges again. You get another punch in the face.
So you drop the gun, and try to grab him on the next pass. He can't run away again if you just get your hands on him, right? Well, he just dodges again, because your grabby little hands are moving even slower than the bullets to him. But now you've put an idea in his head; grappling.
So the next time he comes at you, he spends less than a second to circle around you, and grabs you from behind the leg. He now has two options - either he can flip your legs into the air and beat the everloving shit out of you at lightning speed as you're falling, or he can just drag you with him as you're pulled along behind him at mach 2, your face making a nice divot in the soft loam. Many games have rules for damage for being dragged like that, so you've basically just lost a significant chunk of your head to friction, strewn across the ground at high speed.
Games nerf speedsters and limit their powers so that people have a chance to fight back. Super speed is legitimately busted in almost any context, especially when they have physics attached.
>implying super speed gives you super agility
He's just gonna run into my bullets faster.
OP seems to imply everything about the character is faster. Kind of like how Barry Allen could even perceive and mentally act on things faster simply by virtue of his super speed. This usually is reduced in most contexts because having to have everything happen within a fraction of a fraction of a second to surprise the speedster is a bit limiting
The flash draws from the speed force he has to use the speed force actively leaving him what ever the base creature using the speedforces reaction time to suprise him.
he just runs to the side no need to be agile
If it doesn't then it's kind of useless beyond a fast sprint, since even in an open plain you'd stumble on something and bust your head open.
That's like superstrength without super durability, you'd just tear your body apart trying to lift anything beyond what your body could ordinarily handle.
He's gonna run into a fly and get instantly gibbed. Only flash has speedrun hacks to nuh uh that one.
At supersonic speeds you're essential pushing into a wall of air. The moment you break the sound barrier your dead. I mean pressure alone would blow your eardrums, cause you to fall due to the sudden disorientation and probably skid for a mile leaving nothing but a bloody mark, not to mention you couldn't even breath. And if you go fast enough, you'd be riddled with atomic holes, which doesn't sound too bad, but when molecules are an atomic distance away you're destroyed. And yea, punching someone, you'd die.
Hey! Been a while since I've seen this. Thanks for reminding me. Gonna need to catch up.
You aren't talking about superspeed. You're talking about three superpowers, all completely disconnected, yet complimentary.
Super speed helps you move fast, it doesn't help you dodge something unless you can react to it, though. For that you need super reflexes. And no, one does not imply the other. They might go together in comic books, but you claimed to be using realism as the foundation of your argument, not comic books.
It doesn't stop there, though, because if the super speedy super reflexy dude weighs 180 lbs, travels at 3,000 feet per second (roughly the speed of modern rifle rounds,) and punches through someone that's about 1 foot thick in the chest, it will produce 226,235,380 Newtons of force.
Now, Newton's Third Law says that for every force there is an equal and opposite force.
Therefore, your super speedy and super reflexy dude also has to be super durable, if he doesn't want to atomize himself by punching someone.
And your great revelation is that a superhero with three superpowers is overpowered.
This is why you don't mix realism and superheroes. It sucks all the joy out of things. Just have fun zapping villains with eye laser beams and shit. Or running really fast, if you want to be boring.
>your super speedy and super reflexy dude also has to be super durable
Tornadoes can impale trees with tiny-ass fence posts, and the post is fully intact. Which is toucher, a 2x1/2" piece of dry wood, or a foot-thick living tree? Yet which one gets fricked by velocity and which one is unharmed?
it is almost like you have no understanding of physics, structural engineering, material science, or biology. a fence post would concentrate its force (mass x acceleration) into the very small surface area of its probably pointy end when it impales that big old tree, which is easily penetrated, because it is designed to resist sway and break forces, not being penetrated.
>implying humans are designed to resist penetration
Diff. Blatant lies, jesusgay. Even actual designed humans like Black Widow give every appearance of NOT resisting penetration. Pic as proof. The day you think she is resisting penetration is the day you need to rethink your life. Checkmate, creationists.
>Or running really fast, if you want to be boring.
Are you telling me that every quicksilver scene from Days of Future Past is more boring than any time a superhero has shot a laser beam at the villain that wasn't a beam struggle?
To do super speed shit, you'd need an equally impervious body to withstand it. Speed alone would instakill you if you can't withstand it, and at that point, you're pretty much invulnerable to literally everything if you can. The logic of it is indeed very broken. Super fast, unkillable, and with strength and thought that scales with your speed.
You would also need super fast reflexes to not crash into something while running
You also need some supernatural force to keep your feet on the ground otherwise your first step would blast you straight up into space
>Realistic super speed
According to xkcd you turn into a fusion warhead https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/
What game are you talking about?
Friendly reminder to not watch trash.
I hate capeshit for being so stupid, but something even stupider than capeshit is arguing about the holes in capeshit logic. "Ackthchually super shpeed would kill you!" NO WAY, you just broke the Marvel Universe! I'll remember that next time I see The Flash do The Flash shit, regardless of the fact that you're fricking supposed to watch capeshit with your brain turned completely off. Congratulations you autistic mongrel, here's your Reddit Gold.
The whole fricking genre was sold to 7 year olds in the 60s, it had to appeal to the tastes and intellect of barely literate 7 year old burgers, we're talking barely above cow level intellect. It's not fricking literature where you're supposed to have standards (at least that was the case before the internet made everyone moronic), it's fricking nothing.
>I'll remember that next time I see The Flash do The Flash shit, regardless of the fact that you're fricking supposed to watch capeshit with your brain turned completely off
None of it really works for the flash in any case, he doesn't really have super speed he's tapping into a extra universal concept of speed that effects his entire being and allows him to break the laws of physics.
I hope you realize that sounds even more moronic
>some author figuring out how to head off my nitpicky bullshit before I was born is so moronic!
The Flash can make pants of out GOES FAST.
>a extra universal concept of speed
Yes and no, the speed force is the barrier around the Orrey of Worlds that separates the multiverse from the godsphere/Fourth World where Darkseid lives. DC is wacky.
DC established a long time ago that the Speed Force protects Flash and the world from the side effects of his speed. It's part of why he's considered faster than Superman, he doesn't have that same benefit, he has to hold himself back.
Yeah, I get what you mean and while the Flash explicitly doesn't have those issues the image OP used is kind of symptomatic of it. Like, A-Train wasn't really shown to have super toughness but he runs into someone and explodes them without taking any damage in return?
Shows that *start* you deconstructing the supers, instead of just accepting that the flash can go fast, just run the risk you'll keep going and find plot holes.
All supes in The Boys have some measure of baseline power, A-Train was strong enough to punch the Female through a concrete wall without breaking his own arm. He has several powers, it's just that speed is the most prominent.
Yeah, enough to explode a person and not take a scratch though? Like I said, not a major thing but not a can of worms I'd want to open.
Ye would only need the strength of a tire to plow though a person, and you can stab a tire.
Clearly yes, because we saw it happen.
>A-Train wasn't really shown to have super toughness but he runs into someone and explodes them without taking any damage in return?
That's like his establishing scene in the show, and therefore is the one that shows him to have super toughness
It's like how people are surprised that Annie can survive being thrown through marble pillars despite the fact that she took multiple AMR rounds to the breasts a couple seasons ago
And that in her training scene at the very start she's punching holes in brick walls and lifting cars. If she wasn't super touch she's hurt herself trying, no matter how strong she was.
>A train wasn't shown to have super toughness but
Him running into her and taking no damage shows the super toughness. What autism is this?
Broken knees, torn tendons. Speedrun to get hospitlized/10
>Realistic super speed
It's like how being Batman isn't advisable unless you got a perfect and rapid recovery factor and are baseline tough enough to face tank being punched by Superman without getting more than bleeding gums.
I was expecting for Homelander and Soldier Boy to form a duo that ultimately curbstomped everybody including A Train and Deep, who reluctantly joined our of sheer self-preservation and then at the end, Dylan to be the one who saved the day.
When Noir died everything became chaos, they had wholly abandoned following the comics in any way.
Super speed is not time manipulation.
Momentum alone would make him eat the bullets or he'd break his legs shifting direction, assuming he even has muscles left after they tear from being overworked or shut down from the acid buildup.
You're talking about games nerfing speed yet you handwave how on it's own extreme speed would just kill the user.
>Put blades made of see-though material all over my house.
>Taunt the superspeedster into attacking me
>Laughs as they gibs themselves into bloody chunks.
Speedster combat just means you need to win before the fight even starts
>speedster is so fast he feels his body make contact with the blades but changes direction too fast for them to actually cut
Flash does the same thing with bullets, he feels them touch, and he's fast enough to vibrationally phase through them before they penetrate.
Anybody can find usable superspeed useful. Only a brainlet would say this
https://youtube.com/shorts/C8h4CjwmAOA
>realistic super speed
Is subject to friction, and Dog wiener would burn himself to a fricking crisp if he tried any of that shit.
Why am I standing in an open field waiting to be illegally assaulted by a superfreak?
That doesn't make any sense.
If rain drops hurt him at superspeed, why wouldn't dust particles and air?
"Realistic super speed" is an oxymoron and you're an idiot for not noticing until now. Every superpower is a set of plot devices and narrative conventions that make no sense outside of the fiction they're used in.
>OP hates that hedgehog
SNOO PINGAS USUAL, I SEE
Literally every vs debater already knows this. We like to use Metroman's speed scene in Megamind as a simple reference point, "what if he instead spent all that time punching the other guy in the face as hard as he could over and over?"
>vs debater
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Mr._Bambu/D%26D_Calc:_Dodging_Actual_Light
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Dragonstitch/D%26D_4e:_Light_Dodging
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Basilisk_(Dungeons_and_Dragons)
>FTL (Capable of moving fast enough to somewhat dodge spells such as Anger of the Noonday Sun, which generates actual sunlight) with FTL+ reactions (Capable of tagging people who can react to Dazzling Starlight and Radiant Wings)
According to VSBattles standards, all D&D characters and creatures, even a common basilisk, have FTL speed and FTL+ reactions, because they can evade actual light.
How did nobody realize this for so long?
Vs debaters don't give a shit about that wiki, it's run by morons who don't know what aim-dodging is.
>Vs debaters don't give a shit about that wiki
They do though.
We don't, at all.
>According to VSBattles standards, all D&D characters and creatures, even a common basilisk, have FTL speed and FTL+ reactions, because they can evade actual light.
That's dumb. First off, 5e already fixed this by making sunbeam a constitution save instead of a dexterity save. But let's say it was still a dex save. You can dodge it for the same reason you can dodge a hit scan projectile in a video game. Moving around randomly fricks up people's aim.
>Red Rocket
That's either a Russian or an Ganker poster.
Don't try to apply the laws of physics to things that implicitly ignore them or you'll end up with an A vs. B portal thread.
>Realistic super speed
>He dodges every attack because his super speed lets him react to bullets almost as if they were standing still
kys moron
There’s an unbeatable solution to this “OP” problem
>superspeed gay prepares to attack you from 300m
>sidestep
>he physics-kills himself because you have frick-all traction at this high of a speed unless your shoes are made of an unfathomable supermaterial
If you handwave the material, you handwave realism. Don't mix reality and nonreality, you ape.
That is, unless you argue that realism is the appearance of being realistic instead of actually being realistic, in which case you should have a nice day posthaste.
Any attemts to portray the general variants of superspeed while maintaining some semblance of physics have to deal with the fact that moving fast implies three things:
>Strength and strength to mass ratio
Acceleration is basically force divided by mass. To move faster you have to either output more force or be ligther. Cheetahs are fastest runners and their whole bodies are minmaxed to be as light as possible and to put most of their muscles to work on running faster, to the point where they are actually fairy weak at other applications of strength. Making speedster who just runs faster is basically about focusing on the muscles used for running, but even then you end up with the enchanted leg musculature.
>Reflexes and information processing
Basically, if you don't want your speedster to randomly run into obstacles he has to be able to process special information faster than normal. This is pretty fine ability, as long as you keep it limited enough to not turn into general accelerated thinking speed and as long as you actually remember that how big part of human movenment is subconscious activity.
>Durability
Moving fast requires being tough enought to survive that. Most of the speedsters are so fast that they require the extra protection against not only friction but also the straight up shockwave they are producing. As with my previous examples, the durability is a problem only if you make it into a general purpose power. Cheetahs and falcons, two paragons of speed in atmosphere, aren't super durable. They are light and aerodynamic precisely to minimise the forces that would hurt their bodies, so their most durable parts are those that are most exposed to the actual collisions. This means that, while speedster of super heroic proportions would be toughter than normal human and very resistant to the effects of acceleration and moving fast in atmosphere, he likely wouldn't the the general purpose super tank.
Oh look, it's another shill thread for a tv show
Realistic super speed would fricking kill you if you didn’t also have a dozen other powers
Isn't that most super powers? This shit isn't science fiction, they're SUPER POWERS. I think the majority of supes have powers that can fulfill the basic fricking concept of the power without killing the user.
Yes, that's why superpowers and realism don't mix.
The real issue with super powers is they're usually stupid as frick and had no thought put into them further than "wouldn't it be cool if a dude did X"? Which is totally fine for silly kids comics books, there's nothing wrong there. The problem is the guys who write them are now a bunch of frickheads who really want to be taken seriously suffering from being big fish in the little pond of superhero comics, but minuscule fish in the big pond of writing.
So 60's comic icon pushes-the-planetman who solves problems by pushing the entire planet away from them is now supposed to operate in a realistic gritty world that has obama in it, and the nerds were finding it steadily more troublesome to explain the physics of pushing an entire planet by just putting your hands on the ground and grunting a lot. It's always gonna be a bunch of shit like him surrounding the planet in a gravity bubble, and he is secretly actually moving the whole solar system at the exact same time, and he's actually pure concentrated "force" just resembling a human form which technically makes him even stronger, even though none of this has anything to do with actually pushing planets any more and is infinitely more stupid, less cool, and surprisingly actually harder to believe than just saying "lol it's a kids comic who cares?".
And then some other writer who doesn't like him is gonna have him get defeated by trips-heroes-down-stairsman anyway.
Bruh, we all know Superman's tactile telekinesis was lame, but they redeemed the idea by actually showcasing Superboy using it, so chill.
I'm just kind of saddened at the general untapped potential of speedsters.
>look at me, i'm fast, which means I'll use this to run real fast
Imagine if they used something like a simple sling to throw stuff. A rock moving at mach 8 would be pretty devastating.
That's a side power you can get in M&M, your speed ranks become a super machinegun/shotgun when you throw small objects at people. HERO fricks it up though by letting speedsters break action economy. Which does make sense, they can do that, but from a game design standpoint it's dumb as frick, concessions to the medium have to be made.
The character you're describing has several different powers. Yes, that *suite* of powers is OP but super speed by itself isn't.
> Supers game
> Player picks super speed as many times as he can, dumping all BPs into it.
> Goes first every fight, 3-4 actions before anyone else can go.
"What do you do?"
"Err... I hold my action"
It's not even the only time I've heard of a precrastinator but it was enlightening to see it in action. He did live long enough to get some martial arts, then get himself disintegrated.
>Realistic super speed is OP as frick
Realistic super speed causes gamma ray bursts anon, you're talking about unrealistic super speed.
i played in a weaverdice game where one of the players had super speed but only in his body, his mind could not keep up and still processed information at normal speed.
so he was only able to use his super speed for 1 second at a time before he had to reset to figure out where he was again and if he even hit the person he was trying to punch.
sometimes he would commit to staying in super speed for a few seconds and ending just punching the air where the villain was because the villain teleported away and he did not realize it.
>precognition
>speedster runs into your fist
>it comes flying off
>along with his head
frick off
>Tries to outrun my super sonic bullets
>Rips all his skin off from wind resistance and bleeds out at super speed
Super Speed only works if you throw out physics.
Super speed only exists if you throw out physics, dingus. Capeshit is no place for realismgays, begone.
OP stated super speed was over powered,
>especially when they have physics attached
Which it clearly isn't. If you apply physics it stops working entirely.
If you ignore physics it's as weak or powerful as the plot dictates in Cape media. It's as weak or powerful as it's mechanics dictate in table top.
Your gonna post this shitty copy pasta again aren't you?
Flash has better reflexes than that.
>Flash has better reflexes than that.
Could have fooled me.
It's called plot induced stupidity, where a character is written inconsistently on purpose to facilitate the needs of the story.
One of his main enemies is the boomerang guy. Flash has been defeated by the boomerang guy before. Boomerang. Not arrows, not bullets, not energy blasts. Boomer-fricking-rangs.
In fact I'm pretty sure Green Arrow has probably hit Flash with arrows before.
>Flash has better reflexes than that.
Not actually the most fair comparison, I wouldn't blame Flash's cails on the plot, for that occasion.
Realistic superspeed?
"Your character accelerates to 4000mph and instantly combusts due to the friction through the air. Take 10d6 damage."
OP is right. This is why games with western superpowers are usually about narrative over fine-detail crunch-- so that there's flexibility in how you handle these things.
Why the frick is a supes thread that has nothing to do with traditional gaming doing on /tg/? Go back to Ganker.
its about power levels. Superspeed is not inherently OP, but it is OP in superhero comics because writers cant into physics and throw out buzz words
>muh fempto second reaction time
>muh speed of light.
>experiences 9 g's of force, blacks out and curb stomps his own head into the pavement
many such cases!
The extra energy to move the body quickly has to come from increased respiration rate. That implies faster O2 inspiration and faster CO2 expiration, both of which are confined by the mouth, nostrils and trachea, bronchioles. Under high demand exercise air is already travelling through the trachea at a peak close to 20 m/s. At superhuman speeds inspiratory and expiratory rates mean you're having somehow deal with internal supersonic shockwaves without the benefit of a deflection cone like ramjet engines have.
Blood has to flow faster to transport the glucose, ATP, ADP, (de)oxyhaemoglobin, lactic acid, etc to enable respiration. Aside from the speed of heart rate and blow flow, you reach trouble with these molecules needing to perfuse from the blood into the muscle cells and vice versa at rates faster than occur in nature.
The virutal incompressibility of blood is going to create supersonic shockwaves and cavitation from hearbeat, both of which are going to wreak havoc on the heart itself and blood vessels.
Then there's the heat produced from that respiration. It can't escape fast enough. People already die from heatstroke but at superhuman speeds people will be cooking their own proteins.
So realistic superspeed, not as fast as you're describing.
Realistic super speed doesn't exist.
Realistic super speed detrimentally warps perception.
The closer you get to [time-stop] levels of speed the less information your senses can realistically receive. Once you hit that threshold, light, sound, and scent cannot travel - you are stuck running through an abyss filled with invisible obstacles.
Hope you have a real good memory.
Here's a Power set I use for my speedster in M&M, where time slows around him, so it appears he moves at super speed.
POWERS (74 PP)
o Chronal Costume: Impervious Protection (sustained), Immunity (aging), Feature: Chronal Bulwark; Level 8 (18pp).
o Slowed Time Perception: Senses (rapid, all senses, sustained); Level 3 (15pp)
o Supersonic Force: Enhanced Strength (boosts to strength 4 = 800lbs/57 stone, sustained); Level 3 (6pp).
o Temporal Attacks;
- Temporal Rapid Strike: Damage (multi-attack on strength-based); Level 5 (14pp)
- Temporal Redirect: Deflect Level 7 (reflect, limited to kinetic attacks) linked Ranged Attack 7 (1pp)
o Time Reduction (sustained): Quickness (subtle 1) Level 9, Speed (subtle 1) (1,000 mph/2,000 kph); Level 9 (20pp)
You'll note first he can manifest a costume that armours his body against his own supersonic strength, it also freezes him as a point in time so he doesn't rapidly age whilst speedstering. He has super fast senses that he can toggle on and off to react to fast-moving things and see things in slow-mo when speeding around.
Then he has rapid-fire attacks representing a flurry of punches delivered in a single round, along with a redirect of kinetic attacks to let him essentially catch projectiles in mid-air and throw them back (works on ccq attacks too, like knife stabs).
Other things;
The velocity change whilst using Time Reduction's Speed is enough to overpower inertia of things he interacts with; he can
Pick up and Throw an average person a distance of -120ft- if he wanted to.
In 1 second, he can move a distance of metres creating a velocity of Mach 2.915 (rounded). This is half a mile per second.
The outfit is a surrounding field of temporal energy forming a protective chronal anomoly. It slows down kinetic force, making most collisions less damaging or completely negated.
>run in the rain
>Die from having the equivalent of machine gun fire tear through your body.
Superspeed is only good if you're immune to environmental hazards.