>released at the advent of 3D
>huge complex 3D levels that test both your platforming and navigation
>gives you such consistent and absolute control of playable character in 3D space that people get filtered by its controls
>introduced lock-on in 3D space
>tons of secrets that actually reward you for paying careful attention to level layout and/or performing challenging platforming sequence and feel natural and aren't just stupid obscure and illogical secrets that need a guide to figure out.
>underwater sections that can genuinely be tense and difficult to navigate and also feel good due to best underwater controls that properly take advantage of the 3D space that doesn't feel like you're fighting with controls.
>unmatched atmosphere and sense of immersion. due to restrained use of ost only for big and important moments to create tension or add to awe of discovery.
>best videogame of its era period in terms of how well it uses 3D.
>Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy 7, Mario 64, Resident Evil, and Ocarina of Time are remembered more and talked about more due to YouTube video essayist
when did you personally realize that Ganker was fake?
reward for reading this far: https://youtu.be/q1SE9oDb8qM
The controls are shit, nothing is done particularly well, the games are boring.
They don't hold up past the novelty of their time, that's why.
It's like Mortal Kombat being huge at it's time only because of gore and digitized graphics, nowadays no one gives much of a shit when compared to Street Fighter and other fighters that are objectively superior of that era.
Tomb Raider was a novelty and nothing more.
>It's like Mortal Kombat being huge at it's time only because of gore and digitized graphics
>likens tomb raider to mortal Komat lmao
>not even a real 3d game
>downplays what tomb raider does despite it being more of a 3d game than ff7 and mgs, two games that are literally the exact reason movie games are a thing
>skips over the fact that Tomb Raider has actual level design
>controls that give full and indepth responsiveness and consistent control to the player?
>game with actual indepth underwater section only arguably matched by M64 which has inferior underwater controls anyway
I'm just convinced that Ganker is fake and unironic normies in wolf's clothing. Imagine Ganker COMPLAINING about controls and not being able to see further than that and appreciate how it lends to a unique and genuinely engaging sense of platforming.
Not being able to give credit to ZERO handholding, something even your beloved Ocarina of Time and Mario do extensively, even interrupting gameplay to explain the controls instead of letting you naturally figure it out.
No linear levels, everything Is this huge and varied platforming puzzle box
It's genuinely crazy to think that Ganker gets filtered so hard by this game. This is the game that exposes Ganker all the "you need to be high iq to use tank controls" threads about resident evil, are only because resident evil controls are so easy that you don't even need to worry or think about verticality with tank controls, it's all just running down a straight corridor, nothing ever more complex.
Ganker is shallow and fake.
"bad controls" is just Gankerspeak for i'm lazy and demand instant gratification lol. i can hardly think of any games i would consider to have bad controls
>i can hardly think of any games i would consider to have bad controls
this. I think people forget how subjective the experience of controls are. So many like to act and pretend as if you can objectively say controls are bad or not. Infact I used to be like that until tomb raider showed me how much potential you could bring out of a unique or different control scheme.
Now I think there's no such thing as bad controls, if you just think about it rationally.
If a games controls respond to your inputs, and allow you to perform consistent actions...then how can they even remotely be considered objectively bad? They work exactly as they should. You just don't like them/can't acclimate to them.
Personally, I hate how Mario controls in Mario 64, his jumps are a lot more faster and immediate and...jumpy for lack of better word, but the way he turns, and how his momentum works is SO fricking gross. ESPECIALLY in water, holy shit his water controls are so fricking atrocious. But despite that, so many people laud it as great while shitting on Tomb Raiders controls.
I personally just think it's do to TR giving you too MUCH control over Lara's individual actions, you're expected to put in way more inputs before you actually execute a jump successfully than Mario, it's so much more careful and involved, and the average normie simply isn't going to be comfortable being expected anymore than "press forward and press (a) to jump" Mario is easier to control, even if he gives you less control.
when people say bad they mean unintuitive
>how can they even remotely be considered objectively bad?
In TR's case: they're too restrictive leading to very rigid gameplay where you just repeat the exact sequence planned out by the developers. It's a cinematic platformer in 3D, cinematic platformers are like normal platformers only they sacrifice good gameplay for pretty animations.
>they sacrifice good gameplay for pretty animations.
Mario 64 literally has more animations than Tomb Raider. Genre labels literally rot the brain. You unironically have zero idea what you're talking about.
Is dark souls a cinematic action game because it has rigid and robust gameplay? That attempts to initiate some semblance of real life grounded combat? Holy shit you morons are literally babies that need to throw around ironically RESTRICTIVE (hm I think somebody here used that word to describe something hmm) labels to reductively mask the true nature of a certain type of gameplay.
I thought Ganker was smarter than the redditors that can't appreciate slow placed and thoughtful gameplay and need their games to hold their hand give them every convenience in moment and combat. Hm guess not, guess Ganker is just fake
>Mario 64 literally has more animations than Tomb Raider
It was made over a longer span of time by a much more experienced and larger team. The number of animations is not as relevant as how they effect the gameplay. The overly rigid design of TR makes the game into a slog. By the end the game is having you jump between sliding ledges over and over while grabbing onto things that you shimmy across. Basically any and all ability to play the game outside of a very specific route designed by the developers is made impossible.
>Basically any and all ability to play the game outside of a very specific route designed by the developers is made impossible.
God, you guys are all a bunch of b***h homies.
>Basically any and all ability to play the game outside of a very specific route designed by the developers is made impossible
besides the fact of this not even being really true.
yeah, it sounds like the game actually expects you to...play the game and engage with its systems properly and effectively, and has level design and grounded areas meant to facilitate that. If that's too hard for you, we understand, that's why games like Fortnite exist, endlessly replayable, tons of variety in weapons and playstyles. Zoomers just can't play slow methodical games, that's why the gaming industry has become redundant. New experiences are possibly too "alienating" we don't want to actually scare away gamers by making games that might be too hard because challenge comes from rules and restrictions.
Gaming should all be the same! No level design, so that players can play however THEY WANT! No restrictions on abilities or movement, so that they don't need to learn and understand how the game and character works so as to engage themselves and learn to become better at playing. This is the way gaming MUST be no...this is what gaming SHOULD be.
Tomb Raider is objectively the most unique and distinct game to come out of that era. With a sense of scale and atmosphere unmatched. A game that chose not to copy Mario 64, and a game that precedes Ocarina of Time and remained it's own thing even thereafter. It went against contemporary trends of making games more movie based, handholdy and stripping you of player control. It's a game that deserves respect. You surely. Do not.
>besides the fact of this not even being really true
Stop being a cringe pseud for one post and prove it.
>Stop being a cringe pseud for one post and prove it.
I can't prove against something you didn't prove in the first place lmao???
Plus, you conveniently hyper fixated on only one part of my entire comment because you obviously can't prove against anything I said, so frick off with that high and mighty shit. The burden of proof is just as much on you.
Most of your comments are pseud ramblings nobody will ever care to read. You could easily demonstrate different ways to solve late game sections if it was possible, but it isn't since the game is linear shit.
>but it isn't since the game is linear shit
tomb raider.
linear.
compared to FF7, MGS, Mario 64, and Ocarina of Time.
holy fricking shit. we've gotten to THE take. it's joever. I don't even know what to say to somebody who has clearly never played the games, and also shifts the burden of truth for a claim he made initially.
btw, the reason why you need to justify yourself is that, if I were to provide evidence, and you were to say "that's still too restrictive" it would be unfair for me because I took on all the burden for proving something that was more difficult for you to arbitrarily shut down, because you've presented no proof or argument, I can't show that you're right, even tho I have proof, because you're just asserting your subjective opinion and nothing else, and I have to take that as valid.
Just as you asserted your subjective opinion of Tomb Raider being linear with no proof or substantiation, and I technically can't say anything substantial either other than "No" despite you getting to imply something objectively wrong.
I'm just going to call you a moron because there really is no point in arguing with this. Like, the game has many fantastic, open ended levels, but the final part of Atlantis specificlaly is absolutely linear in how it expects you to progress through it's rooms, while fricking OoT and Mario 64 are absurdly non-linear in general.
>admits most levels are open ended but the final part of Atlantis specificlaly is absolutely linear
>cherry picking the final level when shadow temple exists
am I being fricking trolled???
>am I being fricking trolled???
NTA but I fricking hope so, I just got here and I am mad as frick
I'm comparing it to mortal kombat because it's a perfect example of something that was inferior to it's contemporaries and only was popular for the wrong reasons. Once the novelty wore off and people compared it's actual quality it was forgotten.
I played the game, it was boring, the animations and controls are clunky, not conducive to 3d platforming, the environments are big but empty with nothing much to do in them, you can't even do smooth linking of move sets together it's slow one move at a time controls.
yeah, and it's a reductive and lazy analogy because the entire point is that Tomb Raider offered more than it's contemporaries in every category they tried to match lmao, I cannot believe I am seriously being told that FF7 and MGS have better gameplay, scale, level design and variety than Tomb Raider, holy fricking shit Ganker Is lost.
you morons are unironic redditors pretending to be better and different.
It's like saying "Skittles are bad because much like grapes, they're sweet and only beloved for their bite size" Despite the fact that skittles offer a wider variety of flavour and more compact size, as long as not getting messy with fruit juices. Your analogy is shallow on surface level. It's inconclusive.
>you can't even do smooth linking of move sets together it's slow one move at a time controls.
so the controls aren't babbys first game that essentially play themselves and I love how you skipped over Tomb Raiders level design and the fact that objectively speaking, due to its grid based design, the platforms are a lot more intractable than any other platform released in that year. Honestly it just sounds like you're a zoom zoom that facts fast, easy and immediate gameplay that tells you "yes you're so cool triple jumping into rolling meaninglessly around non challenging or hard to navigate levels" look, if that's the case, I get it, some games are just too hard and require more thought and patience, like deus ex, thief, and Tomb Raider.
Just don't pretend you're better than any average redditor lmao.
Every 3d game in the last 20 years owes 90% or more of its dna to Mario and Zelda
In cases like Soulsborne it's more like 99%
Tomb raider simply did not have that kind of impact
>It's like Mortal Kombat being huge at it's time only because of gore and digitized graphics, nowadays no one gives much of a shit when compared to Street Fighter and other fighters that are objectively superior of that era.
This however is cope, SF has always coasted on its reputation of being "the first" and has never been exceptionally good in any era.
>Every 3d game in the last 20 years owes 90% or more of its dna to Mario and Zelda
Dan Houser is not a game dev. Nothing he says about game design matters. There's a reason actual game devs don't say the nonsense you parrot that you read on a Wikipedia article that a tendie edited.
The controls are great and very precise if you use the d-pad instead of the stick.
i have a feeling id appreciate tomb raider more if i went back to it today but i didnt really appreciate the controls as a kid. i never got that far.
Nah, I tried to get into it lately (played and beat TR3) but it felt like the kind of game that you 'had to be there' to appreciate. If I played those at least 15 years ago, I'd enjoy them more.
i picked up 1 and 2 for the sale and i am expecting to enjoy them
also has anyone else noticed that all the games with good swimming are from 5th gen?
>Tomb Raider
>Spyro
>Majora's Mask
>I think Ecco for the Dreamcast is supposed to be good
did devs just forget how to make swimming fun?
Tomb Raider sucks, that's the issue. Also 3D graphics have been a thing way before it ever came out, the game was only praised so much because Lara had big breasts and it had "pretty" graphics for the time
The controls are easy once you get the hang of it. it's pretty simple to pick up how it works if you spend a bit of time in training, it just asks for a little more patience with learning it's systems. Once you start figuring how the movement works on the grid system it's a piece of cake. The only real problem is the vehicles in the games, which is harder to defend because that was genuinely bad.
"easy" is a bit disingenuous, they can be learned and understood, I mean shooting a basketball is "easy" but playing a basketball game and shooting consistently is not. Tomb Raider is more challenging than 90% of the games from that era, like significantly and meaningfully so, it just has a learning curve you have to actually become comfortable to be rewarded with a satisfying sense of mastery...much like a sport actually, for anybody whos played any sport in depth and understands what it's like to learn how to use your body In a different and effective way.
I think I agree with your broader point, anybody can kick a soccer ball or shoot a basketball, just like anybody can pick up and learn Laras controls, but it's the level design and grid based system bringing that out to its true and ultimate potential as opposed to something much simpler in a movement sense like Resident Evil that's the difference. I don't want to discount that.
In regards to vehicles tho...I'm just gunna say that's a subjective thing and I haven't heard too many people complain about them, I've heard some I guess, but then again I'm pretty sure TR2 is widely the most beloved online, and that game has the most vehicle shit...
this is what she actually looked like
Only in the first game, subsequent ones gave her the ponytail which she was always meant to have
SM64 isn't talked about nearly as much as it deserves (or for the right reasons).
They did so much with so little, even the animations outclass so many modern games.
Just don't quick save lol.
>SM64 isn't talked about nearly as much as it deserves (or for the right reasons)
...literally what? how? huh? there's literally like a 1.6 million view "video essay" (and dozens more, on top of its speedrunnig popularity) on how it's "more than a game" that's how fricking deep down the broad gaming cultures throats Nintendo and Mario is.
wtf are the right reasons???
I don't dabble in your gay youtube shit, I mean real discussion about how it perfected 3D platforming in 1996 and how little the genre actually adopted from it moving forward.
>how little the genre actually adopted from it moving forward
...que? spyro? and every 3D platformer being a collectathon? *sigh* please don't say something stupid like "that's not the essence of Madio 64!!!!" I don't want to have to quibble over arbitrary subjective opinions of a games identity, all I know is that, the collectathon is literally it's entire gameplay loop, everything hedges on it because it has no actual level design or platforming to stand on...but of course I'm sure you're going to disagree somehow even though it's literally objectively true *sigh*
>how little the genre actually adopted from it moving forward.
because the genre advanced beyond having to line yourself via grid to make a jump. things got smoother. then PoP Sands of Time came out and Laura just did that instead.
nobody has, will or can replicate Tomb Raider since, so I don't even really get this point. Nothing about Tomb Raiders gameplay was ever the standard, and it doesn't take triple digit iq to understand why. Its the same reason dark souls 1 didn't even sell 1 million. Luckily for dark souls, it was born in the time of the internet.
castlevania 64 has less rigid platforming than the first few TRs
? I'm confused, what's the point? It's nothing like Tomb Raiders platforming, and I'm not sure it even takes from it. It looks like a poor and haphazard attempt to translate 2D castlevania platforming LITERALLY with no proper thought or consideration for 3D interaction.
>It's nothing like Tomb Raiders platforming
yeah, i know! you can be turned slightly to the side by 15 degrees and still catch the ledge!
I'm sensing an aura of skill issue somewhere...
>They did so much with so little, even the animations outclass so many modern games
if I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure the OG team was literally lime less than 10 people or something. I might be wrong since I'm mostly basing this off a team photo with like 6 or 7 people and just rounding up on possibly missing people out sick or something. The point is that it's crazy to think that amount of people made such a unique and ambitious game to this day all on their own... what would basically be a decently sized indie team (Im guessing?) today
The Tomb Raider games are just boring. Everything is so slow and leaves very little room for improvisation or creativity. The reason nobody cares about them today is because they are shallow and dull.
Nope, Tomb Raider is a classic.
Not really. More of a fad.
>a fad
>a series with almost 30 years, with game still coming out today, multiple movies and spin-offs, and an all-time classic videogame heroine
You're a moron
>still coming out today
There hasn't been a new Tomb Raider game in 5 years.
>mobile game
>in-app purchases
Is it a gacha as well?
Unironically the last good tomb raider game
Kino soundtrack.
Even if you're not fond of the platforming. The best part about Tomb Raider is probably level progression and problem solving. It's probably the least handheld experience in a good way in my own opinion. You're always looking through the environment on how to progress, it really emphasizes the idea of scanning everything and making sure you haven't missed an area otherwise you will hit a wall on progression quickly. Some people may absolutely despise that, but it's something missing from modern gaming about making you think while you're playing. What you haven't done, where you haven't been. It's very deliberate about how it wants you to approach it and it wants you to constantly figure out what the level design is doing and is expecting from you. Some people may call that lack of direction today, i just think people are too spoonfed now.
the world was a uniform grid of 3D tiles. platforming was trivial and mostly taken care of by the game itself due to this grid construction. It was just to make things easy for the developers but the consequences persisted for the player.
>platforming was trivial and mostly taken care of by the game itself due to this grid construction
??? the only thing you can objectively say is that platforming was consistent and robust, aka the developers knew and understood everything the player could do or would do, based on how grid based geometry limited how and where you could move...much like real life ironically...
but that's besides the point, because who in their right mind thinks that Tomb Raider is a trivial and easier game than literally any of the games listed in the OP or literally any other platformer from that time lmao what? Have any of you actually even played a Tomb raider game? There are people that cry to this day about TR3 being too hard, and TR1 late game levels couldn't be completed by 90% of normies today. Frick off with that "trivial" bullshit, you barely understand the game lmao, making the right jumps, along with timing and proper navigation actually matter. Something not present in any other game of that time to a degree such as TR.
Tomb Raider turns into QTE tier interactivity when it tries to be hard.
Are the QTE's in the room with us right now? Where they present in 1996? Please elaborate, this is all very troubling.
kid, I beat the first 4 tomb raider games before you were even swimming in your dad's nutsack
>gives you such consistent and absolute control of playable character in 3D space that people get filtered by its controls
Consistent control yes. Absolute control no. The controls are extremely limited and clumsy. The series died as soon as Dual Shock games became the norm.
>Consistent control yes. Absolute control no. The controls are extremely limited and clumsy
Yes. Absolute control. You can control exactly how far she walks, how far she can shimmy to the side, whether to grab on to a ledge or not. Whether to jump or swan dive. Exactly how far she can jump. She can swim sideways without having to turn her whole body. Turn 180 degrees immediately. Backflip, Sideflip.
Human beings have a limited moveset. They can't fly, they can't turn their head 360 degrees. They can't breathe underwater, they can't bend their back as far back as they can forward. They can't run effectively on all four limb. The human body is rigid and restrictive, and despite that, the most capable and nuanced body in all of the animal kingdom. What makes human beings unique is how much control they can extert over specific and individual body parts. They can bend their fingers, pull their arm back and accelerate it forward for a punch in a controlled and deliberate manner. We have more control than any animal. Absolute control. Despite having no control over the ability to turn our head 360 degrees, or bend our backs all the way back.
Tomb Raider is a grounded and realistic adventure. And Lara is a grounded and realistic playable character that gives more control over her individual actions and the exact way she can act than any other game of that time. You are expected to learn to use her effectively as you do your body. That's what makes her unique, that's what makes her special.
>Exactly how far she can jump
You specifically don't. She has very limited and specific jump arcs that you can only fudge to a very small degree, and her jump timing is delayed by a particular amount so you auto jump near ledges. She doesn't have the same kind of control flexibility Mario does, you can't get a jump that's halfway in between a standing jump and a forward jump, or a forward and a running jump, or have her parkour hop off walls.
You can make that work for you though, it's all part of the system. just step back from the ledge a bit or vary the timing of your jump, the auto jump isn't completely rigid. Also you totally can parkour off things, they just have to be slopes. Anyway the parkour move is only used a handful of times in 64 and because of the fairly specific requirements to do it it pretty much requires locking the camera to basically 2d mode. It's overrated
>She doesn't have the same kind of control flexibility
I literally just proved how variance of ability ≠ control.
It doesn't matter that Mario technically has more varied moveset if 1 the level design doesn't take advantage of or expect it to be used in any meaningful capacity, it might aswell be fricking worthless. The reason why humans can't fly is because they don't fricking need to to survive, wings would be unnecerssary wasted/excess energy and get in the way of the other unique characteristics humans have. And Tomb Raider follows the same principle.
All of Laras moveset is utilized to greater degrees in all her levels, you are expected to control more of her specific jumps. More goes into one single jump for Lara than I ever have to think about for Mario.
The "auto jump" shit is bullshit, because falling off of a ledge is so much more punishing and easy in Tomb Raider. It's a loss of control in one sense, so that consistency can be maintained. It's also why our hearts beat automatically, so that we can have consistency in heart rate. But that doesn't mean managing the heart is easy, we still need to consider how we use our body, and not to strain it.
Just like you have to consider whether you have enough space for a running jump, whether you'll overshoot the jump or under shoot itwhether you can even do a running jump on a slope or jagged platform, and most importantly, whether you even have time to wastez setting up a running jump. It's not as if the game is only about running jumps anyway.
If you can't understand this, I don't know what to tell you, I went fairly indepth, made sure to present many analogies, and be fairly nuanced. You guys simply do not understand and cannot appreciate slower paced and more thoughtful gameplay. Mario 64's platforming can unironically be summarized as "Press forward and (a)"
how can one autist opine so much on the complexities of such a simple platformer?
Because I genuinely think Tomb Raider is a insanely impressive game that isn't truly understood or appreciated for its complexity and genuinely careful design. This game should literally be considered like Dark Souls, for being different and unique from the industry, preferring slow and methodical, alongside complex navigation/exploration and genuine attempts at being diverse and varied in its levels.
I literally think Tomb Raider is the best designed game of that era, and the only thing that holds it back for me is that I have a hard time rationalizing a game that old, being that good.
Because that's what autists do? Platforming in TR is mathematically precise, consistent and boring, so as long as you perform a precise set of key presses Lara will do exactly what she's supposed to do. That's why they can't get enough if it.
I'm not fricking autistic moron, literally everything can be reduced to Mathematics to some varying degree, and I never even implied anything mathematical, my analogy was fluid and grounded and related to human biology and anatomy more than anything.
PLUS Mario 64's primary current day relevance is its speedrunning and how many UNIRONIC artists obsess over it, so frick off with the baseless label, if anybodys an autist it's a Mario 64 fanboy glazing all over nintendos normie targeted game design.
I've been playing this game over the past few days. Got to the last level today. I love everything about the original Tomb Raider except for the combat. Some of these enemy encounters in close quarters are brutal, especially when there's more than one enemy at a time, or you're surrounded by hazards. The late game enemies move very fast and they can take a lot of bullets. The margin of error is slim and the controls are too awkward for the combat imo. I'm filtered.
But I think the level design is brilliant. It really demand that you fully explore and get familiar with the environments. I miss this style of intricate mazelike levels.
Yeah...the combat controls vs the Platforming controls are actually exactly the same, the reason why lock on is a thing is because the game expects you to focus on positioning solely and use Laras movement options to dodge and weave and roll, there were a couple times where I would move Lara perfectly just like I was in Platforming and combat felt exhilarating and like i was literally Lara...but and here come some big butts...The encounter design can be genuinely bullshit and moronic, sometimes enemies will literally spawn right behind you with no warning, Jumpscare you around a corner, or hump you in tight spaces. And all these make it really hard to position Lara effectively and be acrobatic like she is.
So yeah, despite the combat being really interesting and having great potential in theory...in practice it's pretty shit. Especially against human enemies. Luckily combat isn't that frequent + literally every other game at that time had just as shit, or worse combat.
Depends on where. In Poland for example, consoles were virtually non-existing due to higher prices of both systems and games compared to PCs. So everyone growing up in 90s knew about Diablo, Baldurs Gate, Age of Empires or Tomb Raider but almost nobody recognized Metal Gear or Octarina. Pokemons were exception due to easy emulation of GBC/GBA and how you could hold both emulator and GBC game rom on fricking floppy disk.
Yeah, it seems like Tomb Raider seems to just have a greater impact on Europe in general, I'm convinced 90% of Lara's cultural relevance came from their. Man...how the mighty have fallen though, does Europe even remember Lara in any meaningful capacity anymore?
Lock on is Ocarina of Time. In fact OoT just does everything TR does but better.
OoT is the game Crystal Dynamics *wish* they had made
>Crystal Dynamics
They were making fricking Gex at the time, no shit.
>Crystal Dynamics *wish* they had made
Aren't we talking about Core Design here? tendies already getting the developers mixed up in usual fashion when talking about games they haven't played.
the studio acquired by edios in like 96?
Core Design were not Crystal Dynamics you moron. Eidos being the parent company does not change the fact that you got completely different studios mixed up.
>In fact OoT just does everything TR does but better.
It doesn't.
It IS the better and more ambitious game that achieves a wider variety of things to a higher level of quality, but Tomb Raider focuses specifically on isolated tomb crawling exploration and does that particular thing better than any of Ocarina's dungeons do.
>It IS the better and more ambitious game that achieves a wider variety
Oot ambitious? Variety? In Level Design? A game that straight up apes from its 2d Predecessor and isn't a largely new foray into 3D gaming that plays like nothing before it or even after it?
Man, Nintendo bringing gaming back to America will truly never be forgotten huh? They've got every American mentally on lock now huh?
>nintendogays
>A game that straight up apes from its 2d Predecessor
Ocarina of Time is only superficially like its predecessor.
I liked the first 6 or so levels then it becomes annoying obtuse bullshit, and the save system was garbage.
>then it becomes annoying obtuse bullshit, and the save system was garbage.
you know... I feel I've heard this about a certain type of games...I think they start with dark and end with soul...hmmm or maybe? Was it actually starts with "Fear" and ends with "Hunger"? Or maybe starts with "Patha" and ends with "Logic" hmmm maybe it was actually starts with "Resident" and ends with "Evil" aghh who cares, I must be mistaken
Have you ever won an argument with that ?
yeah, I just did. seeing as I received no counter. it was too poignant and true to be acknowledged, you know, when people don't like the truth they usually, shun, hide, censor and delegitamize it. suggesting it as something that shouldn't be valued or expressed, rather than challenging its basis as true. Because if you pretend that what's there, isn't there, aslong as you can effectively do so, you can continue to live the white lie that yes. Everything is all right.
I don't argue with morons, all you've done is proven that you're a moron.
The only thing I remember about Tomb Raider is locking the butler in the fridge. That was basically a requirement for me and my friends whenever we played the game: load up the mansion, lock the butler in the fridge, quit and play the actual game. We never did finish it.
I bet her pussy muscles are so strong she could cut off circulation to your dick
its animations were ahead of its time. let's be honest. despite it being tank controls, it feels incredibly fluid to play, and some of that has got to be how developed and clear the animations look. I love her swan dive animation and the animation she makes when she leaps off a ledge with her hands stretched out to grab onto another. Just feels so nice and clean.
Thank God TRLE exists to keep the series on life support
just make a youtube video already
I'm not good at being creative + I'm poor and can't afford good audio processing stuff
nobody cares about classic tomb raider, the hypothetical YouTube video would flop, isn't that the entire point of this thread and what OP is complaining about?
the worst thing about nu-lara is how hard it is to find classic lara porn anymore
NuTomb Raider is absolute trash, giving her a bow and feminism killed the franchise again
what killed it the first time?
Angel of Darkness, but Core was already on thin ice after The Last Revelation. It was release raped and a buggy mess at release.
It moved to Crystal Dynamics who did Legend , Anniversary and Underworld, that sold poorly.
Rebooted after Squeenix bought Crystal Dynamics who made the Survivor trilogy with all the gore and shapeshifting Lara.
Squeenix now offloaded the IP to the Embracer Group, heard rumours of an Amazon tie in show and a Tomb Raider multiverse.
It is utterly fricked.
this is just a random thought but this nuLara look reminds me so much of the hunger games b***h, it's got me thinking...why don't we have a hunger games type game? No battle Royales don't count, I'm talking true hunger games with the survival esque aspects and the weird dangerous natural hazards and beasts... I feel like a game like that would be insane.
You're 10 years too late for that realization. All games around that time had bows because Hunger Games was the shit then
why did nu lara game 1 have so much fricking gore fetish jfc
every fricking bad end beautifully animated jfc
was it the director's fetish?
were trannies so jelly of her looks that they wanted to kill as much as possible?
>tons of zelda indie clones
>no Tomb Raider indie clone
Lara Croft lost once again
I legit don't understand why everyone jerks off to OoT so much, people act like it invented 3D gaming when It came out in the late 90s as a poor adaptation of 2D zeldas and did nothing new at all. I guess being stuck on the N64 which has like 2 good games only does that to you
>people act like it invented 3D gaming
the whole narrative around OoT legit makes me feel crazy. There is literally NOTHING that game does well or exceptional aside from its music and arguably its aesthetic presentation. Literally NOTHING from a gameplay perspective. It also, along with FF7 and MGS, contributed more to the advent of movie/story heavy games more so than introduce any interesting ways to use 3D. I just don't get it.
It seems like a "you had to be there" sort of thing, but then again, I wasn't there for Tomb Raider and can still look at awe at the game for how crazy ambitious and different it was, so I'm pretty sure the "you had to be there" thing is cope. I can believe my mind would have been blown (although my younger self 1000% would have been filtered by the controls so maybe I wouldn't have gotten far enough to appreciate it) back then, because it still is now for the most part.
Compare it to the average 3D RPG back then, and you understand why
okay yeah, I get this, but a triple AAA company with tons of game making experience shouldn't get credit for making a moderately playable 3D game compared to nobody's who are just learning and getting started with 3D and probably have 10x less of the resources because they didn't save gaming for America and sell 50 million units for their console.
if anything, people like core deserve credit for making the transition to 3D as their first venture and getting so much right, and so much exemplary. While also obviously not apeing off of Nintendo. For God's sake, there are unironically people trying to discredit Tomb Raider having lock on because the small team of like 10 people company didn't have absolute polish in that regard. Nintendotards are so out of touch with reality is crazy.
So? A game like Outcast was released less than a year after OOT, and it completly destroy it
Yeah and specially insane since Half life and Thief came out in the same year and both feel like 5 years newer in mechanics and scope
How is it an rpg lmao. It's an adventure game with heavily scripted gameplay. Even as an rpg it feels way weaker than older games like Kings field or die by the sword
die by the sword was too good for this world and filetered millions
I come from the universe where the first Tomb Raider never had the fricked up body horror Atlantis stuff. Nobody ever talked about the meat centaurs or womb temple walls.
four words.
level variety. and juxtaposition/contrast (count these as one word)
Shit took all of recess to load and crashed. Never touched it again.
??????????????
Hot Take: nuLara design was actually pretty cool and interesting in theory. "Smaller" breasts and all (even though her breasts are still huge comparer to average lmao) It's just that they were NEVER going to pull off the writing because it was somewhat politically motivated redesign from the start, so it could be raw and real enough.
I genuinely wish we could have gotten to see a younger Lara in a survival context learning and developing into the crazy, cool and charismatic cold blooded adventurer she was in the classics in an interesting and indepth way.
I love and have beaten all of the classic Tomb Raiders more than once, but the reason they're not as talked about as so many other games of the era is simply because they're ball bustingly hard. Like it or not, the controls are so detailed/"clunky" that by the time they throw instant death puzzles at the player, most people haven't fully learned how to do the right type of jump on command. On top of that, the margin for error is fricking TINY, compared to every other bing bing wahoo platformer of the time.
It, Rayman and Abe's Odyssey exist in this area where everyone remembers the early parts but got filtered by the later ones.
If they ever go back to classic style game design and expect people to stick them out, they need to come up with a way to make the skill floor lower. IMO something like a belay climbing system would work. Give Lara the ability to anchor a rope anywhere so that players can attempt a "safe" jump or climb so that falling means they just have to shimmy back up to their first position. But then add more timed stuff like doors closing, breakable platforms that you can only land on once before they crumble and force you to take a different route, then mostly just emphasise time and grace in how you complete a level. That way babbies can use the belay as a crutch just to beat it, get their D rank and move on, while true chads play it like the classics, free climbing and only using the belay to swing and find even riskier paths.
>where everyone remembers the early parts but got filtered by the later ones.
hence why I've been calling bullshit on everybody in this thread saying the platforming is trivial and played itself or was just about looking animated. Like there's simply no way they played the game any further than St.Francis Folly or the Colosseum if they're saying that.
Which leads me to belive that Tomb Raider might genuinely be more complex, or at the very least, less...obviously and straightforward for lack of better word. So much so, that even people that play it will make borderline objectively wrong or misunderstanding statements. I don't even mean to toot my own horn, but like seriously look at the thread and tell me any of these people sound like they've even played the games???
I think the levels are open and complex, but the solution to each one is fairly linear. You'll press a switch or get a key and you'll see a new door open up in the central room then just bee line to it. But if you either get confused or put the game down for a bit in those moments, you can get lost doing circles very easily. I distinctly remember getting to Venice in TR2 as a kid and coming into a room where the solution is to move a pushable block inside a fire place, but at the time I somehow got turned around and was stuck for hours before using the level skip cheat. Playing it now that whole section is pretty linear so the pushable block is more obvious. So long as you keep in mind that no new area is a dead end, you should be able to figure out what to do next.
Though, I remember some levels throughout the series having extremely difficult to spot pickups that would blend into the background, so that always sucks.
I loved the grappling hook in that one, but it was super contextual and could have normally been replaced by a stage object. I think the belay idea would be a crutch, but so long as you can let people speedrun levels by playing it like the classics (down to stuff like landing cleanly on a ledge would men Lara can pull herself up instantly, where a sloppy landing would force her into a longer animation where she has to scramble a bit) I think both parties would be happy. I can almost imagine a good run looking like a Tony Hawk combo.
>I think the levels are open and complex, but the solution to each one is fairly linear
this is literally every game ever, there's always one thing you need to absolutely complete to progress that you need to do in some way, whether it's multiple ways, unclear etc. There has to be some clarity and consistency in every videogame.
But I'd argue this isn't even necessarily true, you can open up all the switches out of order. That's what I did in St.Francis Folly for example, because I'd see the door open and not know where it was or which one it was, so I'd just go looking for the next switch and do everything basically out of order. This was the case in Palace of Midas too since there are like 4 different directions you could go In, although I think this level is actually a bit linear as I remember everything I did Flowing naturally into the next thing. Cistern is a better example I think. Then there's the level with the 4 bridges too
>If they ever go back to classic style game design and expect people to stick them out, they need to come up with a way to make the skill floor lower
have you seen the recent only up game? I've been watching speedruns and stuff of it recently and it gives me mega classic Tomb raider vibes, if it could just have some polish, and some tighter level design that doesn't rely on the crutch of falling through a bunch of levels till you do them all right in one go + some exploration and it genuinely looks like a solid foundation imo.
your belay idea is giving me LAU flashbacks though, I'm sure I'm just misinterpreting, but those games were...more than a crutch is all I'd say...
>If they ever go back to classic style game design and expect people to stick them out, they need to come up with a way to make the skill floor lower.
It's called playing on PC. I'll be honest, I have always played them on PC and saved before every jump. I imagine these games are quite frustrating with save crystals or whatever the PS1 versions, but to a savescummer like me they are simply comfy games
What’s the best way to play the games on pc nowadays? I know that for AoD you have to emulate the PS2 version, but that’s it
tombati
/thread
(although I'd personally say to emulate them on ps1 due to no convenient quick save which really makes you have to think carefully about the jumps you're going to be committing to.)
Isn’t that just for the first game though?
All of them have a working GOG version.
you such consistent and absolute control of playable character in 3D space that people get filtered by its controls
>controls so good, everyone hates them
What kind of delusion is this?
>controls so good, everyone hates them
I guess because everybody hates math, it must be useless and finicky right?
God, you people are genuinely so fricking unintelligent it's unbelievable. I can't believe we're still in first grade on this site and thing appeal to popularity arguments are valid. FRICK. No wonder this place is full of shitty bait threads and coomer spam, it's literally so that the lowest common denominator can thoughtlessly participate in discussion and feel good about themselves.
>I guess because everybody hates math, it must be useless and finicky right?
Math would've been useless and finicky if its main purpose was entertainment.
most of old Ganker are console homosexuals who think N64 was revolutionary
also
>original TB
>no marked edges so you had to try out shit for yourself
>new TB
>every ledge and platform you can jump to is obviously marked out for you
absolute cancer
>every ledge and platform you can jump to is obviously marked out for you
As long as it isn't too intrusive with how it's presented i don't see a problem with this(ie, no bright yellow paint showing you what you can grapple onto).
I don't really understand the issue, even in the LAU games you can sometimes fall to your death because what seems like an grapple point - isn't, and then you gotta replay the whole section again for a fault that wasn't your own.
Lara was too based for gamers also it doesn't help that they butchered both the game and her in the reboot so yea..
laura helped.
it worked on me. in 1997, tomb raider was being talked about so much i bought a copy of 2, because i figured i had better get in on it.
revisiting TR2 as an adult, i understood why i thought it was difficult as a kid.
the grid layout worked well enough for me as an adult, but the rigidity and precision filtered me as a child. laura's stiff.
>laura's stiff
laras human imo. something about playing her feels more involved and real than any other platformer idk, it's weird to say, but I felt like I was her while playing, like I was genuinely connected to the experience of jumping and exploring.
which is why I always argue against the term "clunky" it's just too reductive and doesn't allow enough highlight for the good that the controls can contribute to the whole experience. Not that you're even necessarily saying that, just wanted to inject some perspective.
how far into TR2 are you? I hear the game gets progressively harder later in the game, that would seem to track with the first game lmao, game always surprises you with the next area in complexity and puzzle solving.
>how far into TR2 are you?
i used a gameshark to beat it in '97.
i went through it legit sometime after the millennium.
wow OP really likes Tomb Raider, going by the countless lengthy posts
I just want to say that Lorne Lancing spoke about this game by saying that at the time, everyone was saying that Tomb Raider looked beautiful, but he decided to stick to 2D and make Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee unlike other devs trying out 3D on the PS1
he took the piss out of TR and said it looked awful and aged poorly which I'd have to agree with; I admire the devs that laid out the groundwork for 3D games on the PS1 but damn are some of them ugly and bad
>he took the piss out of TR and said it looked awful and aged poorly which I'd have to agree with
that's just a narrow minded perspective man, I mean yeah, the textures obviously don't look the greatest, but thats only one aspect of the visual design...look what they did.
I see the appeal, but it's not beautiful in the same way Oddworld is to me. I have to suspend my disbelief a bit and say it's pretty, but only for the time, or that it's 'interesting' to look at
>but he decided to stick to 2D
too bad he didn't
sometimes I wish I could post multiple pics in one reply, but imagining the disaster that Ganker would become tempers that.
.
TR1/2 are a bit rough but the colorful lights and particle system in 3 are really neat on a good screen.
There are modern games that don't have gunsmoke that sway in the wind or bullet casings that bounce off walls and splash into water.
That's some MGS tier detail.
>>huge complex 3D levels that test both your platforming and navigation
you such consistent and absolute control of playable character in 3D space that people get filtered by its controls
lock-on in 3D space
>>tons of secrets that actually reward you for paying careful attention to level layout and/or performing challenging platforming sequence and feel natural and aren't just stupid obscure and illogical secrets that need a guide to figure out.
sections that can genuinely be tense and difficult to navigate and also feel good due to best underwater controls that properly take advantage of the 3D space that doesn't feel like you're fighting with controls.
Holy shit this sounds awesome what game is this?
Montezuma Return
So I've played TR 1-3 and are currently playing through 4.
For me, 3 is by far the best. The India and London levels of 3 were fricking kino.4 is too big.
>The India and London levels of 3 were fricking kino
>somebody who actually likes the London levels
ohnonononono I can't tell if this is a troll or not, I literally hear nothing but shit talk against TR3 and was planning on skipping it for 4 right after 2. DONT TEMPT ME
You didn't find exploring a freemason lodge under a train station and the museum to be kino? Are you all moronic? India also had the best platforming sections, especially that part where you have to climb up the waterfall.
No, I didn't. London looks like shit and the level design is terrible.
And what is good level design? Please don't say Venice
And why not?
>freemason lodge under a train station
kino
why...and how did you like London? really? London!? and it's not just "i liked it" its "it was kino"
>liking London
you need to see a doctor, have have brain tumor
Circlejerk control the online narrative
The moment they claimed Golden Sun was the peak of JRPGS.
This is a shitty satanic cult game made to press innocent youths into the service of PADO
I've been replaying classic TR games for a year now and like them, but how come we have nearly daily threads about it currently? Did something get announced? Some youtube "retrospective"?
Gear Solid, Final Fantasy 7, Mario 64, Resident Evil, and Ocarina of Time
theyre all great too except maybe resident evil. i think part of it is that most people just think of lara coom when they think of tomb raider, kind of sullies its legacy a bit. the more recent games being boring doesnt help its image either. also although you might dismiss the controls, if they filter a lot of people then its seen as a blemish. perhaps its more true than for metal gear solid and resident evil where you arent jumping all the time. my personal opinion is that it feels no worse than mario 64 which is also horrible by todays double (good) analogue sticks and keyboard + mouse consensus but im not allowed to say that
anyway youre right tomb raider easily deserves its placement along with those games
>my personal opinion is that it feels no worse than mario 64
make laura run in a circle
Why do you people write "laura" but can handle mario just fine? Why not Maurio?
because i hear her name more than i read it and laura is the common spelling.
Laura is the common spelling for Laura, Lara is a different name.
could you pronounce it for me
Here.
what region are you from that theyre pronounced the same way? itll be one of those quite geographically limited vowel mergers
are you telling me i should have been calling her lay-rah this whole time
no im suggesting that your way of pronouncing the 'au' sound in laura has probably merged with an 'ah' sound so you dont notice a difference between laura and lara. shit like this happens variably in every dialect. where i live people pronounce 'her' and 'hair' the same
like CAR-a
now how does the other one sound
lara is queen of bing bing wahoo
Yep, pure unfiltered soul
PC or PSX for playing them nowadays? If PC, should I use Open Tomb or TombApi?
Duckstation
So PSX, got it.
PS1, and don't turn up the resolution. The games natively run at the wrong aspect ratio so you will need to stretch them to make them look right, Retroarch is ideal for this.
Its cool, aspect ratio should not an issue since I have resolution options on MISTer
i'm using OpenLara since it's downloadable and you can rip levels from PSX images
>YouTube video essayist
You're implying that none of those were remembered at all before YouTube.
tank controls are shit
stop pretending they don't
Funny how pre-2013 Lara is somehow less sexualized compared to post-2013 Lara despite their intent.
What is very top left Lara from?
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Lara_Croft
Digging Virtua Fighter Lara in the top middle, where is it from?
Lara Croft GO
>clumsy girlboss with gore porn has the smallest boobs
3 might be my favorite for the variety in atmosphere and level design
>We will never have an acrobatic Lara again
It's truly over
too bad these moves served no purpose gameplay wise
It's SOVL.
These games are highly regarded in Europe. Its just America and Japan who doesnt seem to hold them in high esteem.
nevada outskirts pure kino but sadly the jail level itself is probably one of the worst levels in the series
i want to get the bonus levels alongside the main game, how would i be able to do this?
Tomb Raider was culturally impactful, but most of if not all of the pioneering 3D gameplay was flat out obsolesced by what came later. It is fact that the earliest Tomb Raiders were and are clunky and clumsy to play. No-one copies that for a reason.
Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy 7, Mario 64, Resident Evil, and Ocarina of Time all absolutely shit on this game you disingenuous homosexual
All technically true. However, the gameplay was just boring (at least for the first 2 games, it got noticeably better by 3), so it's not very replayable and that's why it's not as fondly remembered.
Anyone else watched that Lara SFM porn where she gets fricked by the mechanical dildo? Kino
will i spoil myself on 1 if i play anniversary before it?
no
not really, story sure but that's not important
while the general layout of the levels is the same they are different in the details of how you traverse them.
Anniversary is shit, don't waste your time on it, just play the originals
Terminal contrarianism.
>caring about consensus opinion
You belong on reddit.
The first couple Tomb Raider games were definitely phenomenons on release.
They were on the "oh, shit, so this is where video games are going" level of awe.
It was such a new concept that every successor could easily outclass them in every facet of gameplay.
Mud huts were groundbreaking advancements in human civilization but that doesn't mean we all want to reminiscence about or Black person-tier historical significance.
Tomb Raider themed porn was still being produced well after the game was relevant, if you want to measure it by the one category that matters for that specific game.
Yet here we are with linear Snoyslob that won't let you explore and ruins puzzles with auto hints before you even realize there is something to think about.
I take mudhuts over torturejails thank you.
Core should just modernised Lara’s movement while keeping the exploration aspect the same.
Btw to the dude who compared TR with MGS or RE, Core ripped off elements from MGS 2 and RE for AoD.
Tomb Raider platforming plays like a 3D Prince of Persia, which gave it a rigid & dated feeling compared to the platforming of SM64. Then MGS & Zelda blew it out of the water in terms of everything else. So at the time it always seemed like a shitty series that people wanted to like more than they actually did.
In hindsight, the methodical platforming precision of Tomb Raider actually makes for a satisfying experience, and I was too critical of it when it was new. Shame there won't be more games like it, but with modern improvements in third-person combat, and maybe some streamlining for some platforming actions to make it easier to play with analogue controls (i.e. jumping from a ledge aligns you to the next one if you're within a certain range of degrees). Maybe some indie dev will do it though eventually.
> 3d prince of persia
pretty much the best point of comparison. Prince of Persia at least had significance because the field of 2d kinematic platformers is pretty interesting, but Tomb Raider attempting that in 3D was awful. If you wanted 3D platformer exploration games stuff like Thief did a much better job on their first try.
you're trying way too hard
Thinking classic TR gameplay is bad is an unironic skill issue. You instantly out your complete and utter lack of skill for all to see.
Pretending the TR games have good gameplay is pure 100% pseud nonsense. Midwit at its finest.
filtered and skill issues
Nobody is going to be filtered by slow boring games with bad controls. They're going to stop playing them out of boredom though.
keep coping boy
I knew Ganker was fake when it came to any for media for quite some time.
I just pressumed the worst when i finally reached Ganker. :DDd