Remember when we thought this was gonna be the best game ever?
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Remember when we thought this was gonna be the best game ever?
Remember when we thought this was gonna be the best game ever?
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it was
>redditfrog
have a nice day
>
it was #
>have a nice day
I appreciate you
Fippy bippy
out of the traditional 3D zelda's yeah.
it was fun!
It was
I may honestly put SS over this pile of stinky OoT wannabe shit
but enough about WW
WW has more character than TP will ever have.
This game is structured absolutely nothing like OoT and I'm tired of people making this comparison based on marketing. OoT is a spread open hub with keyhole props you unlock with items to gradually expand the world. Multiple directions will open up at once to start but ultimately only a few of them can have their sequence completed to fruition to a new level or area without hitting a dead end, based on whatever part of the game you're at. It's basically structured like LoZ and ALttP, except there's cutscenes and a hint partner that coerce you in the right direction to complete a sequence without hitting a snag. If so inclined, you could tell these elements to blow off and go exploring on your own, and be surprised at how much you can actually do--and finish--before the game explicitly tells you to do them. Or you could do something like collect every tunic as soon as you're an adult, leaving certain keyhole sequences partway through, just because they're there.
Twilight Princess offers none of this freedom. Everything is roped off by being at a certain point in the plot that you can only reach by fulfilling the objectives the plot gives you in their specific order. It might as well be a Sony moviegame that cheaped out on environment design to make you go back and forth through four Hyrule Fields taped together. Any pretense of keyholes, or "gated progression" as some call it, might as well be thrown out the window, since whatever exists of these is a contrivance to fit in with the series and do little to affect progression. Entire portions of overworld will be arbitrarily cut off by twilight or by some goron perpetually chipping at some rocks and will only open once you watch the carrot-on-a-stick cutscene for fulfilling an objective.
Good post.
Bad post.
shitty millennial hot topic 2006 slop.
i hate tp so much it's unreal
no, it was always too little too late. If it came out before Wind Waker than people would have thought better of it.
but people were excited precisely BECAUSE it came after calarts Zelda
but with 20 20 hindsight, TP would have been a bit of a differently designed game and would have come precisely when people wanted it, and not with the faux hype generated from going from disappointment of WW into excitement of TP
everyone wanted TP when they wanted it, then were given WW, then they were finally appeased but by then the type of game design wasn't the same as if it had come out before.
it's the perfect revisionism, it forces you to consider the spectrum of possibilities.
Stop pushing this historical revisionism, zoomie. People of the time were hyped as frick and valued TP more after the fact because it felt like a return to form after WW made people shit themselves with anger.
Nobody likes tp
Objectively wrong.
bitch
Was so hyped for a mature, grim Zelda game with adult themes and gritty art style.
Got a kid's game with gray filter.
What are your thoughts on Final Fantasy XVI?
The last FF I played was 6. Wasn't there an MMO FF game that flopped? I don't know, I don't pay attention to FF anymore.
>Wasn't there an MMO FF game that flopped?
version 1.0 of FF14 flopped but got saved with version 2.0
>mature, grim Zelda game with adult themes
What a homosexual you are.
They dont make good Zelda games like it anymore
twilight princess is fricking dope, maybe not the best ever but still. I wish they still made zelda games like this
It was ok overall, still enjoyable.
In a weird way, not sure if it's just me, it felt way more constrained (definitely) than Wind Waker, but even OOT or MM.
Something about TP just didn't give me any incentive to explore much, somehow the world felt more dead than previous titles. But anyway, still a very decent game I should give another playthrough at some point.
Certainly better than SS and everything that's come afterwards.
Best zelda game. Why?
The tone is spot on. Best visuals for the gamecube. It's long as FRICK. Lots of interesting stuff to do and many side quests. Big open area to explore without ubisoft style crap. Horseback combat is good and fun. Wolf link segments keep it from getting monotonous. Still has moments that feel genuinely mysterious 17 years later (such as hyrule castle rooftops and descent into Lake hylia). Has both serious and silly moments. Cool sword fights. Great game.
I'm going to dedicate a post to completely dismantling your points one by one. Hold on a sec.
Yep. Playing it on the Wii when I was like 12 was revolutionary, it’s still one of my favorite games. The scale of the boss fights and the world, how it feels like a long epic journey is why it’s my favorite
It really does feel like a big adventure. Not just a series of levels.
And then skyward shit made people retroactively appreciate WW. No matter what happens or happened in the series nothing is quite SS bad.
>And then skyward shit made people retroactively appreciate WW. No matter what happens or happened in the series nothing is quite SS bad.
Well stated.
Wold link parts WERE monotonous. I did not like at all to have my precious items yoinked away. Midna was a slight balm to my wound
>it has to be the same all the way through or it's monotonous
lmao
Intro fricks up this game way too much imo.
Hyrule Field is completely devoid of life and anything interesting. It really gets too long and those kids are annoying.
Not a bad game per se, but a victim of its time.
>and those kids are annoying.
They're highlights. So much soul.
Let me explain:
Talo: Lead bully and hot head. Learns patience and duty and becomes a guard.
Beth: Spoiled entitled brat. Learns compassion, and takes care of the sick.
Colin: The weakling of the bung. Learns bravery and becomes a protector.
Malo: Comes up with a catchy song and dance.
They all have really sweet character arcs. It's good to see characters actually grow over the course of the story.
It's got some pretty good stuff.
But dear fricking lord the first hour or two.
What’s the matter with the first two hours? Have you played any Japanese adventure games? They almost always start out slow and idyllic before all hell breaks loose. It’s appropriate for a game as long as TP to have a lengthy introduction in a peaceful village
it IS
better than anything that came after it
Maybe not the best or as great as OoT but i will always regard it as a good game. 8.8 is still a good score.
It was fun but difficult to replay due to the tutorial and wolf sections being a little drawn out. The first time playing I found the town of Ordon to be very charming and the amount of time I spent with those character made me care about the kids being okay later on in the story. Seeing those characters react to the Twilight and the fear they felt towards what was going on was cool.
Ilia was cute and I miss Epona.
Twilight Princess was bad for many reason
>1. It came out after we had seen lots of Xbox 360 and PS3 gameplay, so the ugly graphics and art style were particularly jarring. It didn't have a distinct style like Wind Waker or Okami to overcome the technical limitations.
>2. The story, characters, and writing are all shit or wasted. Midna is okay but no one else has a personality, so she sticks out like a sore thumb. Zant was mysterious for a while, then confirmed to be shit.
>3. The twilight realm and wolf mechanics were BAD
>4. Hyrule Field and Gerudo Desert are huge but feel empty and dull
>5. Bad music
>Zant was mysterious for a while, then confirmed to be shit.
I remember back then the general sentiment towards him was
>don't be ganon, don't be ganon, don't be ganon
>FRICK, it's ganon
And any hope for original writing went out the window.
You just described OOT
>the story and characters were all shit
The story and characters of every 3D Zelda game is identical. There's some big bad that Link has to gather the power of magic things to beat them.
>Bad music
Holy shit Black person, wrong.
Twilight princess is fine.
Quit yer b***hin.
>>5. Bad music
So many bad points but this is the worst.
The only good things about TP’s music were the Midna and Link motifs and Hidden Village. The boss and enemy music sucked. Maybe Ordon Village and Illia’s themes were okay.
>the only good things about TP's music are this song, that song, this other song, these other songs, and that one song
Just admit the music is good, Black person
4 songs do not make the entire soundtrack good
name one zelda where the entire OST is a banger
MM OoT WW OoX MC
Wind Waker
Link's Awakening especially the remake
I used to have Majora's Mask soundtrack on my mp3 player and then my ipod. I will be listening to hiphop and suddenly stuff like stonetower temple or woodfall temple or greatbay temple will come on right after, LOL
there are 2 good songs in TP, Midna's Lament which gets constantly interrupted by riding next to random shitters and the 5 seconds in Hyrule Field theme, you know which I mean
honestly don't remember anything else and I replayed it like a month ago
It unironically saved the Zelda series, since Wind Waker almost killed it
People love Wind Waker, but the climate was completely different in the late 90s and 2000s, people were into dark and "edgy" stuff, and were disappointed that WW looked nothing like OoT
only a moron would rather take shit game that sells instead of masterpiece that's forgotten
and still WW sold decent, was just a consequence of GC doing poorly
Wind Waker a masterpiece? It's a shitty, incomplete, kiddy game that nobody wanted.
>slurping up Nintendo's im 10 and wanna kill myself OoT rehash
yikes
It's the best Zelda ever though
I wish Zant had stayed cool headed and menacing. That sound when he suddenly appears after you restore Lanayru is engraved in my mind and his character design is just so cool, both with and without the helmet.
it was pretty good but it was basically just "OoT: again"
you get less credit for being the second go-round
And we were totally right? Sucks about Hackabayashi.
Zelda was never meant to be grimdark. WW understood the tone of Zelda better.
No it literally did not, OOT and Majora’s Mask have been the only games to perfect the Zelda aesthetic, TP is the only game to have come close.
OoT has nothing on the first 4 games.
And TP isn't like either of those, it's more like Skyrim than Zelda.
Implying. After smash bros melee and soul caluour 2 everyone thought we'd get the mature Zelda, but it never happened
Those people were moronic millenial soibois.
The best aesthetic Zelda has is BotW and TotK by far. It has has that cartoon celshading, but the style isn't childish. There's a great deal of detail density that a lot of people don't appreciate, because all they see is cel shading, and think it's a kiddy style. Literal boomer opinions.
>cel shading
Not the problem, the problem is that they continue to use the Windwaker aesthetic but since they don’t use chibi character designs anymore apparently that makes it ok
I would much rather have a zelda game that looks more like these artworks
>they continue to use the Windwaker aesthetic
Literally WHERE?! Only the Koroks look like they come out of WW. But they're literally woodland sprites. I think they get a pass. What else looks like WW?
>I would much rather have a zelda game that looks more like these artworks
That's what you're getting pretty much. More or less.
>where
Mostly in enemy designs and the environment, it’s not straight up windwaker but it’s definitely closer to it than other Zelda designs.
>that’s what you’re getting
Nope
You are just gay and like sidon fricking link
Nah, I just googled "tears of the kingdom temple" and selected a photo that looked cool.
I can see how the new enemies designs are *slightly* more cartoony than the older ones. However, to call them WW designs is just plain bullshit. You're telling me that these guys, with shoulders, and ribs, and fully fleshed muscle anatomy, are the same as the blobby forms from WW? Bullshit.
Those guys, look like these guys?
Except for the gibdo, yes
You're a fricking joke. And the crazy thing is, I met real people who really think like you. So I'm not even sure you're trolling. But regardless if you're being genuine or not, you're still a joke.
I Liked SS. But sorry, TotK has it beat. I mean, look at this ugly as frick bokoblin design. WW's is too cartoony. TP's is too gritty. SS's is too ugly. BotW's it just right. The perfect mixture of cute and ugly. Not too gritty, but not too clean. The Goldilocks one.
SS bokoblin is literally an onii. Which fits the theme that Ganon and his forces were demons all along.
I think you mean oni. And I literally do not care about thematics, if the design is ugly to look upon.
The best zelda aesthetic was skyward sword. Too bad it was in service of a dogshit game.
>It has has that cartoon celshading, but the style isn't childish
Oxymoron.
>The best aesthetic Zelda has is BotW and TotK by far.
Wind Waker though, BotW and TotK have the WW HD look to them, that everyone claims to hate. but beauty is that WW has two aesthetics now, and they're both good, you must acquit.
>BotW and TotK have the WWHD look to them
You're blind. BotW and TotK don't have all the forced bloom and lens-flare shit, they're just straight cel-shading. It really is the perfect art style for the series, or at least the perfect base to work off of. An OoT or MM remake in that style, but with solid black shadows, would look fricking phenomenal and just like the illustrations for those games.
it's not blindness, it's literally playing them back to back every night. I can see them and they share a look to them, they have graphical parity.
You are blind.
The games are not even shaded the same. WWHD uses soft lighting inside of shadows. While TotT uses hard lighting in shadows. In TotK, occassionally lighting circumstances will cause more than 1 light source to touch characters, at which point, and a new hard surface of light is added to the model.(You can see it clearly on the fairies sometimes.) Where with WWHD, you don't have that. In TotK, there's a persistent rimlight on characters, WWHD doesn't have that.
even if you think they're different you still have to admit that WW is a good looking game.
GCN Wind Waker looks phenomenal. WWHD is one of the worst looking games I've ever seen.
you're such a homosexual
The lighting they use on WWHD makes it stop looking like a cartoon and start looking like some cheap Unity indie game. It's supposed to be flat colors and solid shading, you konw, like cel animation. You're not supposed to be able to see polygons.
they turned the bloom up to fricking 11 in the hd edition. I'd much rather emulate the original on Dolphin
Holy terrible take
You are so far off my friend
Post a piece of scenery from TP that has more detail than either BotW or TotK. You can't. Because they're about the same level of detail density. In fact, it can be argued that BotW has more detail due to all the bump mapping it has, that TP doesn't. But anyway, go ahead and post even a single image with greater detail, and I'll be sure to match it. So choose wisely.
There is no Zelda game that is grimdark. If you consider MM, or especially TP, grimdark, you are an actual toddler.
We thought it would be the realistic bloody Zelda game ever wanted. Instead we got a game even more kiddy friendly than OoT, MM, and WW. Really it was such a step down in maturity compared to the N64 zeldas it was the safest, most kiddy friendly zelda ever.
Remember him?
>that French r34 comic where one of the farm children fricks his wife
I remember learning French just so I didn't have to wait for shitty English translations.
Yes. I will never forget the hype from E3 2004. I followed this game religiously, read all the developer interviews in Nintendo Power for months leading up to its release. I'd fricking print out articles from Gamespot and bring them to school to talk about with my friends. Then it came out and it's the most disappointed I've been with a game ever. At least I learned a lesson about buying into the hype train. Haven't gotten burned since.
Zant is my favorite Zelda villain, but it wasn't until Hyrule Warriors that I realized it.
TP Link was the best
It's the best Zelda, yeah
Can't do that in TOTK
I'm still salty we can't pet the dog
It's bizarre, because they made a whole mechanic where you befriend dogs, and they find treasure for you. There's an npc dedicated to explaining the mechanic, and a quest to accompany the mechanic. And yet, they don't let you actually pet the dog. I didn't even bother to do the quest properly, because I wasn't getting good feedback from the dog. I was getting the pink glow to show up multiple times, and yet the dog didn't go looking for treasure. I tried leading the dog over to the buried chests with a trial of food, but it would just get bored arbitrarily and walk back to its starting positions. So I said "frick it", and pull up the treasure myself, box by box, until I found the quest item.
It's like the antithesis to Miyamoto's design philosophy. Which is to give the player tactile feedback for their actions. Dogs give you nothing, and you can't give them pets. A complete failure in game design.
Were you feeding them 3 raw meat? and I don't think every single dog will sniff out treasure for you, but I know it has to be three pieces of meat when it does work.
Not him, but I did. Nothing happened so I was confused and pulled the chests up one by one.
Theres not that many stables so its actually really inconsistent and unintuitive that not every dog will lead to treasure. Really odd design on top of so much other weird choices
I don't remember how much meat exactly. At least 1, because obviously a dog would like meat. I might have tried a second or third perhaps. I also tried apples.
Look like Mario Odyssey concept art from before they went photorealistic with everything.
It still is
*takes deep breath*
>linear as frick and tons of handholding
>cringeworthy cutscenes
>little to no innovation, doesn't even improve the formula from the N64 games
>Link isn't as mobile as in previous games (Wind Waker Link could crouch and hide)
>filler tear segments
>shitty tryhard atmosphere for grimdark Black folk
>too much expository dialogue
>artstyle that aged like milk
>swimming feels awful
>non-existent difficulty even by 3D Zelda standards
>final boss was predictable and boring
>dungeon design is basically on rails
>worst looking bokoblins in the series
>most enemies are beaten in pretty much the same way: look for an opening, rapidly hit the B button until it recovers from the assault and guards again, rinse, repeat
>crappy story, failed to explain anything in a compelling manner
>NPCs are soulless and not engaging, you can't even interact with most people in Castle Town
>worst battle music in the series, which also ruined the Midna's Lament track
>barely any sidequests
>basically no interconnected areas except for Lake Hylia
>Death Mountain Area is a fricking line with no branches or secret areas
>LITERALLY A FRICKING LINE
>item usage was limited
>potions, fairies, upgrades, and the like are useless and offer no variety
>babby tier puzzles (open the door by shooting an obviously placed eye switch, woooow)
>dull soundtrack
>both the overworld and villages are shallow and not dynamic
>no free-roaming, gotta wait for the plot to explore other areas
>I hate it
>I dislike it
>I do not like it
>I despise it
>I abhor it
>I hate it
>I dislike it
>I do not like it
>I despise it
>I abhor it
>I hate it
>I dislike it
>I do not like it
>I despise it
>I abhor it
But enough about Skyword Sword!
forgot to mention the atrocious fetch quest before city in the sky but yeah, this guy gets it
You had to be there
>*takes deep breath*
Go back.
>babby tier puzzles (open the door by shooting an obviously placed eye switch, woooow)
But enough about OoT.
Oldgay here, this game was a knee jerk reaction to the same people who hated the Star Wars Prequels hating the Wind Waker. Stupid neckbeard millenial and Gen X edgelords throwing a shitfit for internet clout. All those people are dead now from their own stupidity.
TP is just Ocarina but good. Come at me frickers, I don't care.
The blades didn’t quite bleed like I thought they would, but I still enjoyed it.
shields did shatter though but not for another ten years
I only played the HD Wii U version, and I don't get what all the b***hin was about. The wolf parts kinda suck, but it has some of the best dungeons in the whole series. After BotW and TotK, I actually want to go back and play it again.
best 3D zelda
too poor for Switch, understandable and have a nice day anon
no? I have one, plus BotW on Wiiu
For the record TP as a whole is pretty bad but why did they go from Midna to AI chatbot in SS?
Because Aonuma is a hack and Midna was an accident.
SS almost comes off as a cynical parody of a Zelda game, which sounds like a cynical take in itself. Except that "Fi" is pronounced with a long i sound, as in WiFi. As if she's symbolic of players just looking things up in internet if they were to make a game where players might get stuck so they just streamlined the game and made GameFAQs an NPC
I agree. During that second robot escort mission where you have to take him up Death Mountain it honestly felt like the developers were trying to waste the player's time as much as humanly possible, for laughs.
Isn't SS the game they released in tandem with Hyrule Historia or whatever, too? Where they "officially" acknowledged and introduced the timeline. Alongside the exact same game that confirms there's no continuity because it co-stars the first Zelda who was already a thing in Zelda 2 and has zero overlap with its lore or backstory.
>draws absolutely massive hype at e3
>it wasn’t even a game at that point, just some cobbled together movie
>Aonuma only made it because the series was dying
They really should’ve asked for help with this game. Part of me wishes it bombed just so Aonuma could he booted elsewhere.
>series was dying
Dude, Nintendo was drying up as a whole. The GameCube had literally nothing in the pipeline beyond multiplat bullshit.
Yeah I know. That e3 with Wind Waker was pretty much inviting the other companies to shit on them.
What, seriously? Did Miyamoto vouch for him or something?
>I am Shigeru Miyamoto
>today I must conduct interviews for new talent
>who is this grown man with a slice of life anime protagonist haircut
>what the frick is that he has with him
>where the frick am I for that matter
>it's a puppet
>I like puppets. Watching it makes me feel young again
>I do not listen to a word this man says. I can only look at puppet, and smile.
>who is this person
>oh right. But wait. Shit. More people.
>More people is bad. I do not remember more people. I hardly remember person. Only puppet.
>Ha ha. Puppet
>I hire puppet man
the above post is an embellishment but not altogether removed from the truth
Fujibayashi got the director's seat for SS purely for proposing Motion+ which is such a flimsy rationale I can't help but think Nintendo had already gotten sick of Aonuma. I mean the DS itself sold like hotcakes and the Zelda games on it did *terrible* where there was actually a drop from PH to ST.
I am so excited to replay this, I haven't since 2015 and this time I am playing natively on Wii U. I need to finish one of the games I am on I reckon.
They should've stuck with the monochrome world, I say.
Thank god we went from 20ish hour really cool experiences that I want to replay every couple years or so to open world slop that i sink 100 hours into once and never want to touch again in my life
>he wants to ever replay TP
seek jesus
TP was made explicitly for the Western audience and it shows. It's very linear and cutscene heavy, and also very spectacle-focused with lots of scripted sequences (like the horseback battles on the bridge). Replaying it right after OoT and MM, it really felt like the Zelda team trying way too hard to cater to Western design sensibilities.
It isn't a misgiven direction since Zelda historically got the bulk of its (high, for the time at least) sales from the Western audience. And from all appearances, it paid off. Twilight Princess was the highest selling Zelda before BotW, by a good margin.
While it did make a lot of sense from that perspective, it turns out that Zelda doesn't work very well as a linear, scripted action game, which is what TP is at its core. Zelda only really works in a format where the impetus is on the player to progress things, rather than following a set path. TP's pacing is fricking terrible as a result, because all the things that used to be open to the player to do at their own leisure (like the trading quest) were forced into the main quest, and completely disrupted the flow of the game. SS is the epitome of that. It's funny that people say shit like "TP is an OoT clone" and "BotW and TotK break the OoT formula" when in reality TP completely missed all of the design decisions that made OoT great, and BotW and TotK actually build on OoT's strengths. OoT is semi-linear with a couple bottlenecks, but after you time travel, you can do the dungeons and quests at your leisure. BotW and TotK just took the structure from that segment and applied it to the entire game. TP and SS are the completel opposite of that.
>because all the things that used to be open to the player to do at their own leisure (like the trading quest) were forced into the main quest
What's funny to me about this is that this is essentially how Link's Awakening works, right down to having a trading quest that's mandatory. But in LA it actually *works* because while the world progression is meted out in predetermined sequence, it's offered in chunks that present some gameplay prerequisite that still make it feel like you're making it through on your own wits or gumption. It's usually simple like collecting so many of this or uncovering that, but they build on and complement, and since it still works on the player's ability to discover, it never feels like a departure.
It's been a while since I played LA, but isn't the trading quest only half mandatory? Don't you get the boomerang at the end of it? Or is that for getting all the secret shells?
I think you're right. I'm currently juggling a replay of LA with the second quest of Zelda 1. I haven't played LA in nearly 20 years, so it's mostly fresh, and it's a nice experience especially with the remake but ESPECIALLY with mods to make it 60 fps and get rid of the "fog of war". I just remember some part where you have to give one of the trading quest items to an NPC to open the way forward (and get something else to keep the quest going).
I think you have to give bananas to a monkey to open the bridge to Kanalet Castle, and iirc that's the very start of the trading quest.
That's the one. I couldn't remember how long the mandatory part of the quest was. I remembered having to get a few things before it, but maybe I overestimated? There's the bow to the little chainchomp girl, then the dog food to the banana hoarding alligator who collects canned food, then the bananas... Does it start with giving the yoshi doll to the young couple or am I thinking of something else? I actually can't remember if that's how you get the bow.
I can't remember either, honestly. Yoshi Doll may be first, that sounds right.
If you had a discussion about what open-world Zelda would be like circa, say, 2010, not one person would ever even think to suggest a game where you don't get new, UNIQUE items throughout the fricking game. NOT ONE.
This is the "OoT formula" that BotW and TotK violate. You get all your unique items in the tutorial, everything beyond that is just a better (cheaper, more effective, bigger) expression of some functionality you've had access to since the tutorial.
The feeling of progression being tied to acquiring new tools was the innovation that fricking FOUNDED the Zelda series. Zelda wasn't unique because it was open world in a sea of linear, it was unique because you progressed by getting new tools in a sea of games where you progressed by moving right. The rare cases where you did get something that was just a better version of a previous item, it also felt special, because it was a rarity.
OoT is semi-linear with a few bottlenecks, but removing the bottlenecks is impossible because if you remove the bottlenecks there's no progression at all aside from getting more fricking heart containers, and that doesn't feel good. It just fricking doesn't.
>If you had a discussion about what open-world Zelda would be like circa, say, 2010, not one person would ever even think to suggest a game where you don't get new, UNIQUE items throughout the fricking game. NOT ONE.
I can agree there. It would have been more like ALBW except instead of renting all the items from a shop, they're still in dungeons, just that you can go to them at any time.
>This is the "OoT formula" that BotW and TotK violate. You get all your unique items in the tutorial, everything beyond that is just a better (cheaper, more effective, bigger) expression of some functionality you've had access to since the tutorial.
For me BotW and TotK's feeling of progression comes from Link getting progressively more powerful, sort of as a badge of honor or proof of how much of the world you've explored. BotW and TotK are a lot more about the journey than the destination (to sound cliche as frick), where you're running around exploring shit for the exploration in and of itself, and aren't really tied to having to collect magical trinkets to feel a sense of accomplishment. As much as I miss formal dungeons, once I realized BotW and TotK take all the puzzle-solving you'd be doing in dungeons and incorporate it into the moment-to-moment gameplay, they really started to click for me. If you just group shrines together by which abilities they use you could easily string together a set of traditional Zelda dungeons, but keeping them bite-sized like that keeps the gameplay variety up while questing and also opens the game up like crazy by letting the player do everything at their own pace. The traditional Zelda gameplay didn't go anyhwere, it just became less separated between overworld/dungeons to where just playing the game is a mixture of both at all times.
>OoT is semi-linear with a few bottlenecks, but removing the bottlenecks is impossible because if you remove the bottlenecks there's no progression at all aside from getting more fricking heart containers, and that doesn't feel good. It just fricking doesn't.
The only bottlenecks the game really needs is requiring the 3 spiritual stones to become an adult, and requiring the medallions to open Ganon's castle. It could be completely nonlinear in those two segments with a few minor changes (removing the boulders at Zora's Domain makes the Child section nonlinear, and opening Shadow Temple without needing Forest/Water/Fire medallions makes Adult section nonlinear). This wouldn't ruin the sense of progression at all and would actually make the game even better. It's the only real flaw in the game's design.
not just removing boulders, but alternate paths in dungeons where you come in from another with the item from those dungeons would be premium.
deku tree, yeah do it first then let the player lose.
then let them go to either jabu jabu or dodongo, and if they come to dodongo with boomerang, it accounts for that. and if they come to jabu jabu with bombs, it can account for that too.
would love something more like ALBW, but with some branching dungeon paths. hell - make it so you can return to some dungeons and explore entire segments or floors that were walled off with other items.
frick - pull a Banjo-Tooie and connect some dungeons together and loop them into one another, if there'sa child water dungeon, maybe the adult dungeon flows into it and opens it up further, and in fact maybe the child dungeon IS part of the adult dungeon.
turn the bottom of the well into the whole game, access it from hyrule castle, have it lead to water temple and to shadow temple,
super mario bros wonder got me off my ass
>not just removing boulders, but alternate paths in dungeons where you come in from another with the item from those dungeons would be premium.
this kind of already exists. You can do Fire to completion before you go to Forest, and you can use the hammer to knock the skulltulas off the vines before you get the bow.
TP is pure comfycore
It had a lot of pacing issues and lacked overworld depth but it was still the last 3D Zelda that felt like "Zelda" aside from ALBW.
BotW and TotK feel more like proper followups to OoT than the games in between. The MM - SS era will be remembered as the dark ages of Zelda. I don't think zoomers realize how huge and expansive OoT's Hyrule felt when it came out. BotW is the first game since to recapture the feeling of playing OoT when it was released.
I thought BoTW was more like LOZ? You homosexuals need to make up your mind
>MM lumped in with fricking SS of all things
also oot wishes it was as good as botw
OoT's hyrule didn't feel big because of the giant patch of nothing in the center of it. It felt big because they knew how to create a game world that generated the feeling of more existing beyond its bounds. Why do you think there were so many hoaxes about extra areas you needed to do some obscure sequence of actions to reach?
This exact same property (sizable but mostly tightly-designed actual game world FEELS much bigger because it feels like a small part of a larger, functioning world) is also what made Pokemon so special initially, and is why it feels so lifeless now.
But Aonuma is incredibly literal-minded. He didn't pick up on how big OoT felt. He had to be told by other people that part of OoT's appeal was exploration. Wind Waker, BotW, and TotK are attempts to "brute force" the feeling of scale by just having hugely scaled game worlds, at the expense of those game worlds being filled with dead air. It doesn't work nearly as well, but as far as Aonuma cares, it's the thing people will describe OoT as being like.
TP and SS, on the other hand, are what Aonuma thinks OoT was like. Genuinely. He'll fake it if you ask him straight up, but the truth is that he cannot feel any difference in the design of OoT and Skyward Sword. He doesn't know what was wrong with Skyward Sword, on a deep level, he'll only repeat what people told him- if that.
I completely disagree on BotW and TotK. Those games, to me, feel like all the things I imagined OoT's Hyrule had (secrets around every corner, all kinds of weird mysteries and NPCs if you just looked hard enough, etc.), but they actually put it all in the game. I spent years as a kid playing OoT every day just running around the world looking for secret shit because, as you said, OoT gave you the feeling that there was something more if you just explore. TotK especially feels like all the secrets that I imagined OoT's Hyrule to have are actually there. It fricks up on feeling as mysterious as OoT's Hyrule still due to the lore and storyline being all fricked up, but in terms of Zelda being fundamentally about the sense of discovery, BotW and TotK fricking nail it. I'm not one of those homosexuals who pretends there's some kind of radical divide between "old Zelda" and "new Zelda". BotW and TotK feel like a return to form to me after the Aonuma games shit the bed for 10 years.
That's fair, I guess. To me, I just find BotW and TotK pretty disappointing on the "discovery" aspect because the thing I was imagining in OoT was something fundamentally distinct from the rest of the game. I wanted a new item, a new functionality, a new type of puzzle, a new enemy, a new boss, a new dungeon. And the lion's share of BotW's secrets feel like grottoes. There's a few that feel like minigames that give, like, a bigger quiver or something, and those are nice. But most aren't. That's... not what captured the imagination of a younger me.
>BotW and TotK are a lot more about the journey than the destination
You know, it's funny. I can't stand BotW. I gave it the benefit of the doubt for awhile, but time after time I explored in good faith, expecting to find something unique, and got a bokoblin camp whose loot was a weapon only distinguished by a bigger number. The journey makes you feel stronger, but by making all that strength come from strengthening things you can already do, I feel that something beautiful is lost.
TotK injects enough variety that I actually like it overall, and bulks up the dungeons, though it's still missing that unique property.
Also, apparently this is just a me thing, but variety of order doesn't do anything for me. Maybe in an RPG, where higher levels mean more varied tactics to use and to watch out for... but when the puzzles and enemies are going to act the same no matter what, why bother? If it doesn't change the challenges you face, or how you face them, then changing the order feels pointless.
Also, making every bit of gameplay bite-sized (yeah, like shrines) feels like it hurt the design for me. If you took the core design of a shrine and stretched it over the space of, like, a dozen shrines, made it roughly linear, and made it build up in complexity on the same handful of ideas over time, then you'd have something going. But as of now, it just feels like they stop before they really get going.
>I wanted a new item, a new functionality, a new type of puzzle, a new enemy, a new boss, a new dungeon
Most of what I imagined was smaller-scale secrets, not unlike the caves and shrines in TotK, but ones that would add further context to the lore or the world. For example, maybe there would be a secret cave somewhere that would have something that gleans more light into who owned the house where the well in Kakariko is, or shed more light onto Hyrule's "bloody past of history and greed". TotK has things sort of like that because some of the items you find have lore implications, and that's all I was really looking for. More substantial ones like finding a way to unfreeze Zora's Domain would have been cool too, but some of TotK's sidequests feel like they're sort of like that, unlocking new things that have an impact on the world. I became a huge Soulsgay after being so immensely disappointed in Zelda games after TP, and taht satisfied a lot of the itch I had for secrets and lore from OoT.
That's fair, then. I admit there is some lore, although at this point I'm sort of over it. Zelda lore has not only stopped caring about consistency, but has expressed an open contempt for almost everything that really gave it a unique tone originally, so... It's hard for me to enjoy it as much.
For me, I didn't really touch on it well I think, but what I feel the Aonuma games failed at was developing on OoT too- just in the opposite of the way you seem to have wanted. I wanted them to take Majora's Mask as the gameplay blueprint for future games: More demanding, more intricate, more unique. WW, TP, and SS didn't fail because they were too linear, they failed because as a whole they were all too easy. Instead of taking OoT as the baseline and elaborating, they took OoT as the standard and slapped a gimmick onto it. Three sidegrades of something that was meant to be upgraded.
>What's that? You enjoyed doing that puzzle? Too fricking bad. The only way you'll ever do anything like it again is if you set it up yourself for no reason since no place in the overworld will ever actually call for it (totk exclusive) or replay the shrine.
I liked the ideas behind a few shrines, yes. I will freely admit that. But the fact that Nintendo is allergic to using any of those ideas for more than five minutes at a time weakens even the best ideas.
For me they failed at developing the right parts of OoT. I think Aonuma only has a very surface-level understanding of the games in general, and he didn't understand what made OoT a good game. Instead he only saw superficial things, like having a set of dungeons and some cutscenes and quests in between, and he just made those things bigger and more bloated, while completely ignoring the exploration and player-driven aspects of it. MM was the definition of a mixed bag for me. It's a cool little game since its development was so rushed, and because of that it feels really haphazard and ferenetic in its design, which really works to its favor since that plays into its themes. But as soon as Aonuma was able to get more structured and take more time, he gave us TWW, which really missed the mark on what made OoT so good. I think Fujibayashi is a much more talented director with a much better understanding of game design. I'm willing to chalk SS up to not having a clear vision during its initial development, and Miyamoto forcing the team to integrate the Wiimote into it, really limiting what the team was able to do. The Oracle games and BotW/TotK prove that Fujibayashi can make great games, so SS is kind of an anamoly.
>I think Fujibayashi is a much more talented director with a much better understanding of game design
How so? OoX are diametric opposites to the spirit of the series and BotW is a glorified tech demo. The only game there that really deserves its rep is unironically TotK.
OoA has the best dungeons of any 2D Zelda game, and arguably any Zelda game in general. The only one taht gives it a run for its money is OoT in that department.
And I guess that's where we're never going to see eye to eye. OoT had a SENSE of exploration without ever really backing down and saying "okay, go explore now". The sense of exploration was not what was valuable, the ability to design a game to feel like an adventure while still retaining a driving pace and a lot of variety was. The games following MM fail to deliver on this not because they don't have enough freedom, but because they're not designed nearly as well. WW is too tiny to pick up momentum, TP's pacing is beyond stilted, SS is downright insulting. They failed to develop gameplay that needed development, and then failed to create emotions OoT almost seemed to create effortlessly.
>making every bit of gameplay bite-sized (yeah, like shrines) feels like it hurt the design for me.
funny way to say you liked it and wanted more
>I wanted a new item, a new functionality, a new type of puzzle, a new enemy, a new boss, a new dungeon
Same. I’m tired of impermanent items and buffs.
>Also, apparently this is just a me thing, but variety of order doesn't do anything for me.
You're definitely not. Unless the non-linearity actually adds something to the game, there's no point.
Good things about TP:
>best aesthetic for the series
>best horse controls and combat in the series
>best combat mechanics in general
>best visual design of Link and Zelda
>solid dungeons
>Midna and Link's relationship is really well-done and the only one in the series that feels properly fleshed out
Bad things about TP:
>linear to a fault
>things that used to be optional content are now inserted into the main quest and are mandatory, fricking up the pacing between dungeons
>lots of cool mechanics are one-time scripted events only and never expanded on properly, like Goron wrestling
>most of the cool beta shit that got shown in 2005 shows a way more open game, and it all got cut
>tacked-on waggle controls in the Wii version
>Link being a righty int he Wii version made him permanently a righty for some weird fricking reason
>disjointed overworld full of loading screens and bottomless chasms for no reason
>ridiculously easy, which undermines the new combat mechanics because there is no challenge to combat whatsoever
Overall I'd give it 8.8
>best combat mechanics in general
I always see this paraded around, but the combat is barely any different, it's still just the same "wait for enemy to have the super telegraphed opening then attack"
It looks cool but it's not super engaging
>8.8
Are you a fricking computer?
>nu-Ganker is too young to remember 8.8
We must remind them.
It's funny because in hindsight, 8.8 is a really fair score. I'd personally give it like a 7.
this is old gamefaqs?
I remember there was a board website with black background and maybe green highlights that I used as a kid for animal crossing GC item codes and smash bros character unlock guides. never found it since then. I'm sure that the thread list was aligned to the right-side of the website.
bump someone please answer this
it was full of lies and fake stories of characters that didn't exist in smash
no thet game blows ass
ya
Yes. I remember. I had no idea the good times were ending so soon after.
> Have you ever seen it, Anon?
> The high bridge of Lanayru, reaching out like the wing of great eagles.
> Its arches turned white by the morning sun.
> Have you ever been called home…by the clear ringing of temple bells?
This guy always throws me for a loop. Not my first go at the second quest, but I keep forgetting this dude is there.
OoT > TotK > LADX > OoA > BotW > MM > ALBW > OoS > TWW > TP > ALttP > Zelda II > Zelda I > PH > Shit > SS
>skim list to see where Zelda 1 is
>it's low
>I don't read your list
TP is neither edgy nor grimdark. It constantly lightens the mood.
Honestly I would say TP has a problem with tension at times.
They don't know what those words mean. Tell me with a straight face that you would find Malo Mart in an edgy or grimdark setting.
I love how people talk about "padding" like the tears fetch quests. Bruh EVERY Zelda story is a fricking padding. Half of every game is doing some shit or going after some shit that ends up being worthless halfway through the game. Gameplay variety is all that matters.
I thought it was great
Still the best Zelda game ever. The two switch games are childish popular rpg clones instead of being original like Zelda used to be.
TP is by far the least original Zelda game
My main problem with the sandbox games and one area where I feel like my understanding is diametrically opposed with their philosophy was the fact that, in BotW at least, any time a shrine required solving some riddle or completing some task to reveal itself, it was always either a Blessing or a Test of Strength. Like the game thought I was tired or something. No man, give me the BIG levels after doing something like that.
Twilight princess was the most badass looking Link. Now he looks like that kid Brayden who hangs out at the beach all summer and doesn’t work because his parents are well off so he’s up on all the latest zoomed fashion trends.
From what I recall, everyone saw that shitty demo that Nintendo showed off before Wind Waker and though Zelda was going to be a mature-darker game for its next entry.
You gotta remember this was the like the 90s/00s, so a lot gamers wanted more dark-grittier-edgy-mature stuff. So people got pissed at Nintendo for Wind Waker thinking it was a game for kids. Then when TP got showed off, everyone was like finally this is the real dark Zelda we want.
I really don't miss the 90s/00s everything has to be mature-edge phase the media had.
>I really don't miss the 90s/00s everything has to be mature-edge phase the media had.
It's coming back.
No. I never wanted to play as a homosexual dog. It was like a 3 hour thing just to get the fricking game started then "whoops, dog again, lol".
This and skyward sword sucked wiener and balls. Fricking Wii with it's gay fricking motion controls. I hated the whole goddamned thing.
I still think it's great.
way too linear
That is one of my favorites. Maybe number 3 on my list.
>Majora's Mask
>Ocarina of Time
>Twilight Princess
>A Link to the Past
>Seasons
>Tears of the Kingdom
Thank you Jesus for good vidya.
>there are people posting on Ganker RIGHT NOW who were born after the 8.8 apocalypse
I want major studios to do their own spin on past Zelda titles. I’ll go first
>Twilight princess
From Software
>Skyward Sword
Santa Monica Studio
I can’t think of anything else. OoT is off limits for me, I would never allow that game to be sullied.
Remember when 8.8 happened and nintendo fans suffered complete mental breakdowns?
Midna