Remember when you could go into an action RPG knowing bosses would have hitstun when it made sense for them to?
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Remember when you could go into an action RPG knowing bosses would have hitstun when it made sense for them to?
HUMANOID bosses is a pretty important detail. I agree.
I like break gauge mechanics in turn based games like Octopath and unironically Neptunia Rebirth
The one in Star Rail can eat my dick
>refills as soon as it's emptied if it breaks right before their turn because frick you
Bro? Your banjo?
What's better game design: Making infinites/near infinites impossible, or just implausible, only allowing for people who know the mechanics and frame data inside and out, to pull them off?
So the P2W game is being even more explicitly P2W?
so don't do that
They're fine in JRPGs because they add complexity to combat and usually require specific strategies to take full advantage of. They suck massive dick in action games though.
Break/Stagger/Meme shit in JRPGs is fake gameplay.
I know this is difficult for some to stomach, but it is literally a handholding measure implemented by devs who have zero faith that the player can play the game "correctly" without literally being forced into doing so.
Based
I don't even think you should have stagger meters for non-humanoid bosses, you should have some kind of exhaustion mechanic
Why not give humanoids complex AI that can space, dodge/block/parry, and punish just like a player can?
Because no AI can actually convincingly act like a person and it's better to be uncanny and inhuman while still posing the right degree of challenge than to be more "reasonable" and be a pushover.
Fighting games do it for their campaigns.
Fighting game bots input read you and make reactions normal players wouldn't dream of, that's the only way they catch players out. They don't actually have humanish AI, they cheat out the nose. Every racing game cheats like hell too for the record.
All RTS games too. The AI ignores fog of war, can spawn additional units, and has extra or even infinite money on higher difficulties.
I completely quit the RTS genre when I realized this. I was in civ 5 or heroes 6 maybe and I had conquered everything but one town and they just kept cranking out units despite a total blockade and no access to resources. Cheating ass AI can go to hell. I refuse to buy any RTS until they code one with real AI that plays by the same rules as the player.
Wouldn't that be more fair with party members to spread out aggression? If not, they could just bring it down to slightly less than how Elden Ring does it, which that AI punishes on the first frame of you sipping or casting.
Especially if each AI controlled party member could read the boss's inputs, too?
>read input
>add a basic algorithm to determine if the boss should react or not (based on how many times the same move was used before, if in a row, health bars, desidered challenge level etc.), how long it will wait and what counter it will use
woah that was hard
You're a moron
That's how they implement the different difficulty levels. On easiest difficulties, the AI just might not ever block, while on higher difficulties it will do punishes and reactions that are impossible by human standards. In the middle they just randomly decide to be dumb or brilliant, the degree of which can vary by game. In some older games, they just out right cheated.
Ultimately, single player fighting game AI tends to boil down to finding some sequence of inputs that triggers a specific response from the AI that you can exploit to win.
Holy shit this video is so good.
I knew I wasn't salty for no reason. I feel like justice has been made.
Playing against the AI in fighting games is the least fun thing imaginable.
Fighting game single player part is absolutely garbage
You've never played a fighting game against an actual human that's decent at it.
Not an action rpg, but DMC 4 had a pretty cool boss battle against an AI controlled Dante. He can be cheesed probably and he reads the player's inputs, but it felt like a fair fight.
He reacts perfectly the same way every single time. He can't be fought normally.
He only has very specific weak points which you can exploit without fail every time. He can only be cheesed.
Souls games do a pretty good job of it. I get regularly parried by the npc invaders
Devs have touched on this in the past if they make the AI too good no one will play the game so they have to make AI dumb on purpose so the player gets his dopamine fix
How are F.E.A.R. and Halo 2 on Legendary regarded as masterpieces, then?
Sadly you mentioned 2 niche things.
FEAR is niche in general despite how popular it was back in the day. Halo 2 itself is more renowned for it's multiplayer, sadly most players couldn't complete the campaign on legendary. As you guessed, the AI was too strong for the average moron.
Don't get it twisted I love both games, but I would be foolish if I said most people liked the campaign of eother game on hard/legendary. Keep in mind we're talking about players in general and not just hardcore gamers.
Bullshit, the AI in Jedi Academy were creepily realistic. Like when you would stop for a moment to take a breath in an intense fight with some sith and they would just stare you down or do a taunt/emote thing before charging back into the fray.
because AI isn't magic and the more complex it gets, the more likely players are to brush up against the rough corners and exploits to cheese rather than genuinely engaging the system
Difficulty is like pressure - there's only so much a game's systems can support before they buckle and break. The possibility space for a realistic, human like boss fight is just way too large even before you start introducing concepts like build variety
its a lot easier said than done, but yeah i hate how devs are so not eager to try to make enemies that feel like real fights
Sekiro was cool in how enemies actively try to clash with you, but a lot of aspects like how their hp is massive, how theyre universally worse at punishing and counter attacking, and the player's offense being a bit too repetitive holds it back
Dude just implement something thats stupidly difficult to make.
It becomes an annoying balancing act. Either you make it too easy and people complain or you make it too hard and people complain. You're never going to get it just right.
Bayonetta did it well, Jeanne boss fight is the best fight in the game
A lot of the design in these games likely happens with placeholder models and animations at best and those get filled in by different teams as the development of the game progresses.
It's easier to make everything work if you just have a pre-defined stagger bar.
Because AI is too good at actions that can be easily automated but unconvincingly miserable at actions that can't be broken down into chunks that can be easily automated.
If they put enough effort into breaking things down into chunks and tuning the AI to be able to use them, then that is something that they will also need to constantly revisit, test, redesign and test against everything else every time they change something meaningfully enough, which just doesn't really work in the kind of production environment of these major studios where steps might happen months apart and might be outsourced. For them the best design choice is one that they will not have to go back to.
>Just add another thing that needs to be tweaked and tested with every iteration
They're not going to do that.
Malenia is a meme. Like a lot of ER, the fight is just a massive health stat check.
>Like a lot of ER, the fight is just a massive health stat check
Hey now, I liked most of ER, Malenia in particular is just shit. RNG-heavy behavior that can lead to shit like Waterfowl Dance being thrown out two inches from your face when you don't have time to get out of range is just not fun to fight.
There's nothing RNG or random about Malenia.
The only reason she filtered millions is the fact that you can't ever allow yourself to spam attacks mindlessly but have to constantly read her hitstun state.
How do you tell the difference between the slow and fast version of the multi-slash attack meant to punish backwards rolls aside from after the fact? Alternatively, is there a way to guarantee the slow one? What are the exact rules behind when she can pull out WFD aside from "below 75% HP"?
What the HELL was that WFD dodge?
I never considered myself to be "spamming attacks". I waited for attacks I had seen the most consistently bad recovery times on and tried to punish them. But I mostly had to get lucky for her to even use those attacks, at least when I myself was open to attack in return. I never wound up trusting hitstun to save me because of how many of her attacks outright prevent it.
>How do you tell the difference between the slow and fast version of the multi-slash attack
I think with one of them, she leans forward more at the start of it or something, but I am pretty sure there is a tell.
People would just b***h about the game reading inputs.
Every soulslike game is based around getting your hits in when the enemy has "overextended" and just given you a window to hit it freely.
An AI acting like a human would stick to spamming the fastest attack and never give an opening to hit.
This wouldn't be so much an issue if Souls games weren't designed with a comical degree of difference between bosses and regular enemy encounters. You could have a defense option to counter spammy fast hitboxes. But defense just would not work against a boss several hundred times your size, so it can't really be all that powerful.
>People would just b***h about the game reading inputs.
No, people b***h about input reading when it's blatantly and lazily implemented, like Elden Ring.
the very simple answer is flawed human ego cannot handle robot doing something well
effort spent making AI with realistic, delayed, human reactions is all wasted because first human that will get their ass whooped by it will cry that it's cheating
designing videogame AI is riddled with lobotomies, cut features and countless compromises made to account for feedback from focus tests
this is the same board that hates invaders and doesn't play fightans.
if they ever develop the perfect "human-like" AI, you guys would shit your pants and make up every excuse under the sun.
I think invaders can frick right off, but I love stuff like F.E.A.R.
I want to play fighting games very much, but I've never been able to keep what I learn about the characters straight while I actually fight. I always just turn into a button mashing ape. Doesn't happen when I go through the exact same scenarios in singleplayer, so I think I'm moronic.
Play Tales. Streamlined controls with similar overall mechanics.
Fighting games are dead because human opponents aren't fun to fight. Victory is one of the only pleasures a fighting game player knows. The scrub gets mad when an opponent spams the same move, and though he is a scrub who needs to get better, he's right to be mad. Another human being has decided that another was not worth anything more than one spammed move over and over. Instead of offering a unique and interesting encounter, he gives him Sonic Boom spam. He plays this game every day, and today he does the same thing as he did yesterday; Sonic Boom spam. He is an actual blight upon the community, not because he's filtering scrubs, but because he is a boring individual that nobody should waste their time playing with.
it really has been too long since anybody hit me with something so based i had to stand up out of my seat and kneel
This is why fighting games are most fun when played with a bunch of friends who barely know how to play them.
invader souls play is for literal homosexual losers like yourself lmao
What I'm reading here is:
Input reading
Input reading
Input reading
Input reading
Input reading
If I get blocked by a real person I think "Nice Block"
If I get blocked by video game AI I do not think "Nice Random Number
Adventure of Link did it right.
Just make the control janky for the player while making the AI the master of jank control as a big frick you.
God Hand solved this with most of its human fights in 2006. Azel, the two Black person homosexuals, Tigger Joe. Games are literally moving backwards.
God hand sucks shit like every other d list dead series capcom game
How about just letting things attack
>I hit you that means all the momentum in your swing suddenly vanishes LMAO
Hate this shit.
>give humanoids complex AI that can space, dodge/block/parry
because it would rely on input-reading and frame-perfect inputs. and if by some kind of miracle it didn't, you bet people will still b***h that it does.
then there's the bigger problem: if you give them a moveset similar to the MC, it will be impossible to punish the AI. bosses are given attacks that lead to guaranteed punishes so the player knows that any deaths stem form mistakes instead of the AI outplaying him.
>because it would rely on input-reading and frame-perfect inputs.
Not if you're smart about it and have it run off proper event flags and understanding timing as opposed to having them do the same instant reaction every fricking time on frame one of your animations.
>bosses are given attacks that lead to guaranteed punishes
While this is true, this exact reasoning is why stagger is a necessary part of good combat. With stagger, you don’t need to make every single attack punishable. A good player will be able to recognize a stagger opportunity. When you game has stagger, you create a more free-flowing game that rewards player skill.
Easy example is head sniping a tigrex. Before a charge
>A good player will be able to recognize a stagger opportunity.
you just contradicted your post. if the boss provides no openings for a punish, you'll never be able to hit it at all, let alone stagger it.
There's no way to do "intelligent" combat AI without it simply being an input reader that has to be programmed to do the wrong thing once in a while.
welcome to the appeal of fighting games
God, you're a fricking idiot.
instead of seething I am going to give you a real answer.
because when you introduce complex AI it ends with easy to abuse gimmicks, similar to how real players behave, but imagine if this one player had a strategy guide made for how you can exploit his complex AI to make it trivial.
So the better alternative is to just make a response and reaction type system which provides some artificial challenge.
I have tried to implement some algos into my AI which makes the AI do things as if the player was doing them. Basically made a schizo AI, which is just random, and not really fun or challenging.
They did this with DMC4 Dante boss fight and it wasn't particularly fun.
He's fine until he switches to Royal Guard.
With his input reading, he'd always perfect guard and counter you for an instant kill. It was best to just stall for time when he was in that style.
wdym it was hella fun
No, because in any game where there isn't a meter I just can't fricking trust hitstun at all.
>oh yes I want my attack to go from safe to unsafe because the boss had one frame to transition into a move that they don't take hitstun during
FRICK you.
Learn to manage the boss' combo breaker mechanics and don't get greedy with your openings.
Souls games have bosses with bursts too, but a lot of people seem to hate them for some reason.
what do you mean by bursts
AoEs that are used to escape being juggled.
No anon, my experience with this is bosses with ordinary neutral moves that still have super armor because frick you, so a perfectly innocent opening can just become death.
If a move has a super armor property it's not a safe opening no matter how much you'd like it to be.
>boss ends attack
>go in to attack
>one frame before my actual hitbox touches boss, super armor move (which is non-deterministic and can't really be predicted aside from "probably won't spam it") comes out
>I get hit
It's not my fault your game is designed badly. That doesn't have much to do with a stagger meter versus a combo breaker mechanic for humanoid bosses. I might as well argue for attacks that ignore stagger buildup or some other nonsense but that's a different discussion.
The point is that a stagger meter is explicit and consistent while most players are trained to expect a hitstun mechanic to simply turn off as soon as the boss wants it to.
The stagger meter is just usually visible while the revenge value often not. How you design your game for both obviously matters since you can frick both up.
for something like kingdom hearts 2, when people know the RV they just math out exactly how many hits they can do before it triggers and the game becomes rote and boring
it's better to have to earn the stun and do whatever combo, rather than getting stuns easily and having to earn not-being-unsafe-on-hit
It's all very relative. Does the boss simply get hitstun staggered to death after your combo? Is your combo infinite or limited by stamina or the moveset having a finisher? What happens when a boss breaks your combo? Is there a chance for you to dodge the next attack etc.
Because that system allows for humanoid bosses to get hitstunned and not tank hits until a meter is filled? It's tied to hitstun from the OPs picture.
We're approaching this issue from opposite sides. You're concerned with the boss getting combo'd to hell because that's what you've seen a ton, I'm concerned with the player landing hits at times when they're SUPPOSED to land hits and still getting punished for it because that's what I've seen a ton.
I'm only "concerned" if you want to put it that way with humanoid bosses lacking the visual feedback of a nice hitstun when you punish their openings with your attacks. Systems that use stagger meter mechanic don't really avoid that issue while systems that use a combo breaker mechanic tend to do better. Both can be designed and balanced horribly and end with situations like you described. Ultimately both systems are similar in a way because they try to deal with the issue of a boss being able to be stagger locked to death. In the first case you have to earn your right to stagger but when does your opening end after that? Unless you implement a system where you limit a player's attacks you then end up implementing a system for a boss to be able to escape; similar to the second case. It all depends, stagger ending or a boss reaching its combo breaking point doesn't even have to be very punishing to the player. Vergil in DMC3 just deflected your attack, gained DT and some frame advantage but the game was reset to neutral. If you mashed after the clear deflect animation that was then your own fault.
I'm sorry, maybe I'm stupid but I don't understand how your point applies to mine. I am telling you very clearly that in my own personal experience, hitstun is a fricking lie and will fail you whenever the boss decides it's inconvenient, not when you've genuinely been too aggressive. I am not going to be able to shake this impression easily, and thus am not prone to trust "just use hitstun bro!" arguments.
My answer to your point was just "i can see it happening when it's designed badly"
Not much else to tell you other than that, i don't view it as an inherent flaw of every system using hitstuns like you do.
>systems that use a combo breaker mechanic tend to do better
do they? mortal kombat shaolin monks has the enemies break out of hitstun to interrupt you with a counter move. however, you can cause them to whiff it and continue to juggle them like ragdolls as if nothing had happened
>doesn't land perfect execution mechanics 100% of the time but still does them consistently
that's a huge caveat. sometimes people pull off superhuman feats, be it an insane prediction, an inhuman reaction, or a godlike read. whenever any of these happen people will b***h like there's no tomorrow. and if they don't, then you couldn't say it's human enough.
Why do you keep bringing up the revenge value when this discussion explicitly started on hitstun and has been trying to recenter on hitstun every fricking reply? How can you be this dense?
>every boss has a super armor move
>they can do it as a reaction to being hit
gg
Translation: Just play like a little b***h, waiting for two attacks which have openings so you can do tiny amount of poke damage.
This is how Malenia works and she's universally considered the greatest boss in video game history with no real competition
Malenia is fricking shit.
Malenia is the best and hardest boss ever and LMSH is the most skilled gamer of all time
>(Malenia is) universally considered the greatest boss in video game history with no real competition
You could have said 'controversially' or 'debatably' but I respect you had the balls to outright lie so brazenly confident to try and prove your point.
name just three (3) better bosses in video game history. And I WILL be judging your answers
he posted one
>she's universally considered the greatest boss in video game history with no real competition
The funny thing is some Fromdrones actually believe this.
I've always seen more praise for Friede than Malenia.
Then you haven't been on the Internet since Elden Ring released. Welcome back, anon.
>she's universally considered the greatest boss in video game history with no real competition
Play more games, seriously.
Not even close troony
there's good stagger meters (nioh) but a bunch of games are ruined by it
arise and ff16 definitely frick it up
Nioh was one of the first action game if not the first that had it. Sekiro came after, put their own spin on it, and popularize it in their own way. I think stagger in armored core was implement well as well
Most action has a "stagger" meter since forever though, just hidden.
It never bothered me all that much in Nioh and I don't know why. I guess it's because they designed a lot of mechanics and stats around it? Against humans there's moves that work really well at breaking guard and if you time your offense well you're rewarded for it. Then most Yokai have something like a horn to break or another weak spot to instantly hit them with a lot of ki damage. After a while it stopped bothering me that they could get their stamina back so fast.
I never really bother me in most game with it so far. For nioh, that stagger period is fairly brief and the combo/ execution is also quick and satisfying so it doesn't interrupt the flow of the fight. I am aware that almost all games, such as monster hunter, dmc, or Mgr has a hidden stagger bar anyway.
It's been a while since I touched Nioh, but wasn't one of the main mechanics of the games based on managing your stamina/ki bar by timing your actions just right to recover what was spent, which also damaged the enemy's bar in the process?
You're thinking of Ki Pulse, if you pressed the stance button after an attack you would cancel the animation and recover Ki, with how much you recover being based on how long you wait until doing it. It didn't do anything to enemy Ki though, unless you used that one Onmyo talisman that let you emit shockwaves on Ki Pulse which was pretty fun.
How about a boss that can fully reset its stagger meter at will? Or one that ignores you filling up the meter if it doesn't feel like going down?
If the game cheats, then so do I.
*Turns off damage, enemy parries and stamina drain*
>Y-you d-didn't bea-
I didn't ask.
You didnt beat her.
Malenia isnt even hard when you learn movement. I beat the whole game as a level 1 wretch, the people complaining about difficulty just suck at the game and didn't learn how to time a parry
The Nioh games have stagger meters. The only people that complain about them are idiots.
?si=U6aI43uw-l6k3aqu
>2 seconds in
>dodge into a laser beam
>no damage
shit game
she clearly dodged under it chud
>boss stands around tanking 99 slashes from the player like nothing after some of his attacks, in an idle pose
>barely feels like a real fighter and just does some fancy moves that dont really care about your position once every few moments
i always got mad with that
I wish this game had no random loot bullshit.
wasn't Rise of the Ronin supposed to be the Nioh-like game without the random loot explosions?
jesus this looks like complete ass
I too judge games just from a 280p webm anon.
How about a boss that, instead of being staggered when you fill the meter, counterattacks with a instant move with oneshot potentail?
>Nerg already in the animation before you attack
>calls it a counter attack
>falls for it 4 times
Granted, it is stupid how crazy fast it comes out, but maybe try not being greedy when you know it's going to come out at any time?
yeah what
said.
you're just not respecting the threat.
>VIDEOGAMES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO [THING]
homosexual thread, go make your own game
mindbroken schizotroony thread
Aren't From games the biggest victim of the T-Virus besides New Vegas and Ultrakill?
fromgames dont even compare to ultrakill
ultrakill in particular is remarkable. If it released like 5 years earlier then Ganker would be treating it like the peak of FPS
>If it released like 5 years earlier
So, 5 years from now instead of 10?
kek ur right
i dont even mentally consider EA to be "unreleased" anymore. Its just code for "we want to release the game unfinished"
If you care so much about genuine challenges and skill, why not play fighting games against human opponents?
You are not gonna find that in your jrpg slop.
I don't want early onset arthritis over a video game and I don't like black people.
Why are we discussing a problem that KH2 fixed almost 20 years ago?
KH2 had dogshit fight mechanics though? there's literally an invisible meter that when it's full the boss just decides to frick you over ignoring all the rules.
you just a) attack less than the RV threshold or b) reflectga when they counter
it's not a problem in practice
>KH2 had dogshit fight mechanics because I couldn't just mash attack to kill my enemies.
Holy fricking shit take.
>actually had to learn fights
>this is somehow bad
modern gayming has rotted your brain
>learn
>autistically having to count your attacks to track the invisible rage meter is good design according to anon
random counters are always bad, and while it doesn't need a meter onscreen to warn you, there should be some kind of visual tell if a boss is building up rage and getting ready to break the rules on you.
>visual tell
>with all the other visual clutter on screen
nah, I'll take a deterministic RV I can plan around and align specific combos to specific damage windows, which takes much more skill than mashing the damage button until the boss does a simon says to get you to stop
You might prefer a turn based RPG if you want to keep a spreadsheet of your moves and plan out your attack order like that, that shit doesn't belong in real time gameplay.
What you are talking about is absolutely not KH2 in any way shape or form. RVs do not change based on specific attack windows, they are one size fits all for each individual boss. And the only way to actually recognize their presence ingame and to work backwards to have an idea of the values on each attack is to mash the damage button until the boss does a simon says to get you to stop, then change it slightly next time, except the values themselves aren't variable enough to matter in that regard. There isn't even any fricking visual clutter in the game as it has a very clear artstyle to it. RVs are a smart idea but as a system they were unfinished and with people like you horrendously misinterpreting what makes them interesting they never will be.
>What you are talking about is absolutely not KH2 in any way shape or form. RVs do not change based on specific attack windows, they are one size fits all for each individual boss
that's a complete fricking lie
Give 5 examples
It's the complete fricking truth. Let me guess, you're confusing someone attacking often enough to not let them reset with the limit being suddenly different.
>learn an arbitrary value where the boss breaks the rules of the fight and can instant counter you
>bonus points if you abuse mechanics with firaga and reflega spam
I love KH2, but revenge values are fricking dogshit.
Reflega doesn't have any notable interaction with RV unless you're really going to count "using the counter attack when the enemy attacks you" as a big deal. The damage can be moronic but that's another matter. The irony is that Final Form Firaga and Ars Arcanum as 0 RV moves are the lone aspect that makes the system more interesting, because you can spend a resource to further extend the combo in ways that let you manipulate and control RVs, even if it's as simple as attacks that don't add to it. KH3 then improved on this in more sensible interesting ways by adding more 0 RV moves, some more situational attacks and resources and most importantly not making your most efficient RV combo also be the strongest and simplest to do. It's still not finished though.
Nioh's Ki system is extremely well balanced by how enemies act and how your moveset is designed with a high variety of attacks that cover different situations on top of health and Ki damage. Ki breaks are naturally big payoffs but you're still rewarded for damage before them, and at the same time you still have reasons to consider Ki damage after the break and need to juggle both well. It also still relies on you actively making the most of the Ki break and has further mechanics around maximizing damage like the rear damage bonus.
>Reflega doesn't have any notable interaction with RV
No, it just lets you avoid the punishment part of the attack when you know it's coming and how long the string is.
>that makes the system more interesting,
That's not interesting. Random moves that skip the shitty arbitrary number counter is just more bad mechanics. On top of the concept of revenge values being moronic, hiding it all behind invisible numbers with no indication makes it irredeemable.
Ignoring the part where it's explained to be interesting doesn't stop it from being interesting when the attacks that come with 0 RV have significant resource/situational factors to their use. But yes, hiding it behind invisible numbers with no indication is a bad move. NEO:TWEWY also improved on RVs by having very clear distinctions for when the enemy hits their RV limit, on top of a second RV limit state if the enemy is in the air where they gain stagger resist until they land, and hitting them again when they land is when their retaliation gets triggered. It also has multiple status effects that you can apply to temporarily negate RV buildup but which can't be relied on.
They don't have superarmour for 90% of the fight at all, and some yokai don't have it at all and behave differently. But yes that sounds fine, especially since there are also some limited ways of staggering through their Ki.
>Ignoring the part where it's explained to be interesting
I'm not ignoring it. In fact, I explained exactly why it isn't interesting and why it's fundamentally shit, but you ignored that. Hiding the value makes it worse, but it's still not a good system.
>okay that's enough attacks for now, I'm going to hit back and possibly one shot you
That's dogshit no matter how you frame it. In games with action combat, things should have more mechanical and systems and less strictly numerical effects.
Saying it's shit because "it's just bad mechanics" is not the explanation you think it is. You should not be able to easily infinitely combo bosses to death without some kind of method that keeps you in check. Now some bosses in KH2 do have revenge attacks that come out a bit too quickly and with too little warning for how the game works that's true, but that is a problem with those bosses than the system itself.
>things should have more mechanical and systems and less strictly numerical effects.
Anon please this is really funny how do you think all these things are programmed into every game to begin with? It's hidden numbers all the way down. I don't even disagree with the sentiment either, but KH2's biggest issue is that the numbers are just nonsense half the time which makes them mostly impenetrable, combined with that not even mattering because your general basic combo with abilities slapped on is almost always best in terms of both RV and damage. There's nothing that pushes you to vary combos based on situation in spite of RVs which is why the system feels unfinished.
>Saying it's shit because "it's just bad mechanics" is not the explanation you think it is.
>That's not interesting. Random moves that skip the shitty arbitrary number counter
>hiding it all behind invisible numbers with no indication
>In games with action combat, things should have more mechanical and systems and less strictly numerical effects
My fault for replying to you after you brought up both KH2FM and TWEWY. The overlap in those fanbases are the biggest morons and pseuds when it comes to JRPG fans. It's clear you're a moron who's going to turn everything I say into "Well that's subjective so it's not bad" while also taking everything you say to an illogical extreme.
>Anon please this is really funny how do you think all these things are programmed into every game to begin with? It's hidden numbers all the way down.
Yup, and there it is. No shit it's governed by numbers on some level because it's software. Bringing this up and pretending you don't understand what I mean doesn't make you sound clever. What you're doing is the same as getting mad that someone says old XCOM is better than nuCOM for being a simulation instead of numbers to hit because according to you it's all just numbers anyways. You'll get no more replies from me, no matter how much you pretend to have had a point.
it's mildly annoying in kingdom hearts to get hit by a revenge attack
but you're also gaining information that you need to try a different combo
a lot of the time you can reflectga on reaction
if not, you just adjust your combo to the boss
having a Revenge Gauge onscreen might help a little but the problem you're describing is very minimal in practice
>but you're also gaining information that you need to try a different combo
Simon says fights are dogshit. If a behavior is completely arbitrary then it's not fun to learn. That's why all KH3 bosses suck.
in kh3 you can cancel anything into a block or dodge at any time including mid-air or pop a formchange or do a shotlock or do any of the million other options in that game that make you safe. how are you getting hit by revenge attacks
KH3 Simon Says isn't bad because of revenge value counters, it's bad because all the DLC bosses are a game of Simon Says to figure out when they have a random break in their hyper armor.
throw out projectiles to try and get a combo going and when they come close you mash block > counter slash > block > counter slash through their whole combo until they stop being super armored
or you can do one of the form changes that has dodge attacks and just keep rolling through them until it picks up
you never have to just sit there defending
>you never have to just sit there defending
No, but you can't damage them beyond chip damage or flinch them at all if they're in a hyper armor phase, and the openings are just randomly placed into their movesets that you have to figure out by guess and check. It's some of the worst boss design I've ever seen.
There are plenty of combat systems I love. Sometimes different does mean worse, and with KH3 it does. Having arbitrary holes in hyper armor is just shit design. There's a difference between something being just a preconceived notion vs an affront to common sense.
>actually learning what the game's mechanics allow you to do.
I beat all the data fights and Yozora on critical. They were terribly designed.
Very impressive beating the bosses while ignoring the very straightforward, sensible and often obvious moments and methods where you're able to combo them.
>while ignoring the very straightforward, sensible and often obvious moments and methods where you're able to combo them.
Yeah like when Yozora does his 3 count teleporting standard combo or his vacuum thing and he whiffs and is exposed so you can combo him? Oh wait, he still has hyper armor after those and instead you need to do shit like bump into him on his second iai slash and make him jump back then air slide to him for vulnerability. Very sensible vulnerability window.
The fights are dogshit and you're mentally moronic for defending their design.
Why yes, moving towards him to attack and punishing his attempt to dodge after his attack is pretty sensible. Play more videogames.
>moving towards him to attack and punishing his attempt to dodge
Only on the second one. Not the first one or the third one all of which have identical animations. Fricking idiot. There's no amount of mental gymnastics you can do to make it sound not moronic. This isn't even considering the fact that running into him during just about any other move will get you one shot despite that one being vulnerable.
Oh now I see what's going on here, you can't even fathom games being different to your preconceived notions and instead have to label them away over actually learning what the game's mechanics allow you to do.
>the subject you were talking about specifically was revenge values
>"how fricking dare you reference the two games that prominently feature them!"
That's still not even the most ironic part of this post though, I pick the part where you get mad and accuse me of all sorts of random shit I never even alluded to despite me outright agreeing with you on multiple aspects. But hey, if you want to throw a fit and say you're moronic then I'll just have to agree with that too.
Sekiro did it perfectly where the boss actually blocks your attacks and your primary goal is to guard break them, with it being easier to do so if you get hp damage in, and the bosses countering/dodging if you hit a few times.
Better for both gameplay and visuals than a boss that pretends like you aren't hitting it until it hits an arbitrary amount of damage taken.
How would you adjust that for a game with an emphasis on combos, particularly ARPGs? Just giving bosses a Smash/SoP style block meter that depletes quickly enough to not be the main goal of the fight?
>Sekiro did it perfectly where the boss actually blocks your attacks
you hit sekiro bosses frequently but each hit does like 1% of their health
it's not any more realistic than a typical action game. you slice a man across the chest with a katana, he loses 40 litres of blood and then goes right back to beating the shit out of you
>and your primary goal is to guard break them,
sometimes it's better to not guard break them because it fills the posture gauge faster
the posture gauge is just a stagger meter but without the fun part of getting to do a combo
>doing a combo where the enemy is a completely defenseless unengaging punching bag
i wouldnt really call this fun. Its much more fun to combo an enemy that is actually capable of fighting
By definition, a combo is when the enemy that's unable to fight back. If they can, it's not a combo.
thats more like specific terminology for fightan vidya, but semantics aside, you get the point
Its far more interesting to get repeated strikes against an enemy that is actually trying to defend itself. Enemies turning into defenseless punching bags upon filling an arbitrary bar is really boring
Thats why sekiro's posture was better than AC6's
>sekiro's posture is more of a secondary healthbar
>you still have the overall enemy fight being a pure fight where theyre actively defending, and staggers/knockdowns are things you actually earn with your own strikes
>damage is damage, you wanna frick up the enemy in general
AC6
>reducing boss hp bar entirely boils down to waiting for stagger with 90% loadouts
>instead of feeling like youre constantly fighting the enemy for the sake of truly fighting, you only think about filling an arbitrary bar 99 times over that makes the enemy take much more damage,
>the best feeling of "moment of opportunity" are gained by filling some gay bar instead of actually fricking up the enemy in some manner
>damage isnt sheer damage, sometimes dealing huge hits will deal frick all on the long term, it all boils down to creating the window where theres a massive arbitrary damage multiplier
it gives the fight an ebb-and-flow
the boss starts out able to super armor through all your shit and you have to play defense
when you get a stagger, now you're controlling the pace and you get to aggress
it also allows you to use those high-commitment moves that would be unsafe on hit normally
late reply
>the boss is able to super armor everything, until the game gives you an arbitrary moment where suddenly the boss can be beaten up with zero skill or effort whatsoever
that just sounds like a very boring and lazily made enemy
>high commitment moves that are unsafe on hit unless during a meme stagger
that just sounds like an atrociously bad player moveset
I only got past the monk. But I thought you're supposed to get posture damage in, instead of doing any hp damage? What do you mean by guard breaking?
hp damage makes their posture meter drain slower, you need to do both hp and posture damage to kill most enemies.
Literally no one actually understands how Sekiro works beyond R1L1 or at most R1L1 Firecracker Mortal Blade which is impressive when Fromsoft games are relatively simple to begin with including Sekiro. You can kill anything by either health or posture damage. The lower their health the slower their posture will recover. That anon used guard break to refer to posture because just using the names of mechanics is too hard for people. All your attacks will deal both health and posture damage, while deflecting deals posture damage. This actually means you want to be hitting them as often as possible, which is possible by dodging and punishing, and deflecting mainly when they do strings of multiple attacks where the resulting posture damage would be more than if you just hit them. Prosthetics and Combat Arts play into this further by giving you many ways to deal more of both types of damage, including doing health damage through guard.
this tbqh. Just play Kannagi Usagi if you want simple Sekiro combat seriously play it if you haven't, it's free and awesome
Yeah stagger meters are so tiresome. They're fricking everywhere nowadays. They made sense in Sekiro because when you stagger someone you can just murder them (or delete a boss's health bar), in most games with stagger it just makes you do more damage. Hell even Fromsoft fricked this up in Armored Core 6, has probably one of the worst examples of stagger and it was directed by Sekiro's lead designer! I don't know how that happened, you need Miyazaki as a tard wrangler I guess.
AC6's stagger was fricking awful. The game would be genuinely so much more fun if the stagger bar was deleted & attacks against unstaggered foes dealt some more damage
>copying fromsoft
You mean FFXIII, which somehow wound up becoming one of the most influential jrpgs of the past 15 years
XIII's at least was relegated to a turn-based action hybrid, where you're not expected to have full control of your character anyway.
It's because Lightning made herself real and then went into game development.
Like the Tokyo Team's newest member, Stellagay.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. FFXIII is not a bad game, morons only hated it for reasons outside the game itself. And others hated it because they never played it.
It's not a bad game but it's definitely a flawed one. The complaints about it being hyperlinear are absolutely valid (and even when you get to Pulse most of the content there is for post-game). Combat-wise you spend half the game without control over your party composition, and you can't switch your party leader mid-fight, and there's no way to customize the AI. Storywise there's too much to list, suffice it to say it's full of moronic moments and even at its best is wasted potential. It looks very nice, has a great soundtrack, and the combat has its moments, but it's not a masterpiece by any means.
Square were up their own ass at the time and FFXIII is a perfect illustration of that, they thought they were making this grand new cross media universe that will last a decade, FFXII feels unfinished and misguided. At least we got XIII-2 and LR which were excellent, especially LR, it's easy in the top 5 FF games. It's a shame everybody skipped it because Lightning hateboner.
XIII is and always was dogshit, and we always used to joke that one day moronic children would be nostalgic for it. Here we are.
I finished XIII. I didn't finish XIII-2 because it's clear they learned nothing and Toriyama was incapable of directing a good game.
I've said it once and I'll say it again: you're a homosexual.
I hate the game because I played it. XIII-2 and especially LR were also terrible
The 2018 Spider-Man game and its sequels are egregiously guilty of this.
I can't think of any game before demon souls that did what you're implying. Maybe DMC?
Notice something there?
That there wasn't a better option previously? I don't know what you're trying to point out.
DMC never did that for its humanoid boss fights
You can bait him to do certain attacks precisely because he input reads. He's kinda cool the first time but not really that fun of a fight imo.
dmc doesn't really let you combo the bosses
he name drops "revenge value" which is kingdom hearts 2, a game where you can juggle the humanoid bosses but usually* can't infinite them
there's also a pic of a tales of game so he's probably an old tales gay. all of those games were riddled with infinites though so not a good comparison
ninja gaiden sometimes lets you combo the bosses but it's weird and you get pseudo-infinites via AI loops
after demon's souls you have like mgr revengeance where you can launch the bosses at certain times
The worst part of Arise and FF16's implementation is STILL not letting you juggle/combo bosses when they're staggered. Can't even have your cake, let alone eat it.
I mostly played Vesperia before it, and while I think there are a ton of exploits in it and the series in general, Arise was an overcorrection in every way,
vesperia is one of the ones where you get stupid easy infinites
also you can juggle the human bosses in arise
the problem in that game is the moronic accuracy/penetration/whatever system which they've been using for 15 years
you only get a stagger if you're statistically way stronger than the boss, which means you'll just kill them in 10 seconds anyway
all they need to do is cap the boss's resistance so they can actually be staggered and comboed without having to invest a billion hours in a gimmick build
The only bosses that was actually fun to fight in terms of their movesets were probably Dohalim and the second Vholran fight.
Couldn't the frustration of input reading be somewhat mitigated by delaying the AI's reaction to the average human response time?
Maybe set difficulty settings by the frequency of input reading (Like "Very Easy" only reads your inputs 50% of the time)?
Or have it happen later in an animation, approximately when a player would be able to realize what they're doing.
Ideally, the means of filling up an enemy's stagger meter should be contingent on a multitude of factor. I'll give a spectrum starting from 0, with 0 being the easiest...
0 - Stagger meter builds regularly upon damaging enemy. Stagger does not deplete but holds steady until a further increase.
1 - Stagger needs a "trigger" in order to start building, such as a technique, guarding against an enemy's attack, the enemy's elemental/weapon weakness, etc.
2 - Stagger is sequential, another part of the enemy, especially larger ones, needs to be damaged or destroyed before meter can build
3 - Stagger needs constant pressure and attacks to build, difficulty is in how quickly the meter may deplete over time
4 - Stagger can only start to build if player attacks enemy in a narrow time window.
5 - Stagger can only start to build if player perfectly dodges/parries/blocks any of the enemy's attacks and attacks within a narrow time window.
6 - Another strategy that may not only be difficult, but unintuitive to the player. May require a unique weapon or item, or attacking within a narrow window before or after an enemy attack that does not alert the player. May have to talk to an NPC or do a side quest to learn about the enemy/boss stagger trigger.
If anyone can improve upon this or add to it, I'd like to know.
5 sucks. It doesnt encourage unfiltered offense and arbitrarily requires something different from hammering the enemy. Delete that and its fine, just have counter attacks help for stagger by the sheer nature of being organically powerful
I should tell you that the spectrum is not my personal ideal, just conditions that I notice when playing games that have a stagger system. Usually 5 is most prominent in boss fights, they filter players because the only time to pressure the boss is right after a tricky to avoid attack or combo. If the player gets hit, they are stunned or knocked down, which guarantees they'll miss the window to pressure. So the player will have to get walloped a few more times before they get it.
I can't believe this thread's still up.
If there's one reason I still come to Ganker, it's because I can't ever get enough talking about gameplay mechanics with other people, it's good to get honest opinions. From what I'm reading, the issues Ganker (as represented in this thread) has with most stagger systems are...
1) Too easy to exploit (mash mash mash).
2) Enemies, especially human enemies, don't display enough defensive behavior to where hacking and slashing at them constantly to build up stagger would make sense
3) Time window or damage multipliers on enemies during stagger state. Players would prefer to test loadouts and techniques to figure out ways to best keep juggling enemies and bosses to better gain a feeling of having "earned" doing that much damage to the enemy.
4) Not enough indicators to when a boss battle will change phases, leading to wasted resources since boss HP will not deplete beneath a certain threshold before the next phase begins.
That sound right so far? In regard to the third point, I would say a battle system would have to take inspiration from Final Fantasy XII's Gambit system. To save as little time as possible or to guarantee a combo, say your main character has a "Super Slice" technique. Your technique leads into a lot of offensive options, but only if the enemy is getting juggled, too. Say you have another party member, a caster. So you would set it to where every time you use "Super Slice", the caster immediately follows up with their spell to juggle the enemy to lead into your combo. This is extremely precise in terms of dictating AI-controlled party members (if the player has not switched over to playing them in a battle), so I don't know how good that sounds to Ganker. Thoughts?
Seems like a more refined version of Arise's mechanic. Each character has an assist that mini-staggers the enemy, though they forgot to let you juggle them afterwards, and is pretty simplistic with what ones to use.
Maybe I could compromise. Say the boss does have a time limit on the stagger, BUT the stagger stops briefly if a character uses a technique on them or even slowly fills back up little by little depending on how well your party can juggle the boss. Of course, for extremely skilled players this would technically mean it's possible to infinite a boss to death.
Wtf I ain't reading all that
Keep in mind a large proportion of the complaints boil down to "it's not realistic!" or "it's been done a lot!" rather than direct issues with the mechanic at hand. But those are reasonable enough takeaways to consider how best to implement a stagger system. The point of them existing is largely to cover two areas: allow enemies to have varied threatening phases while giving the player a fun payoff to build up to where they can turn the tables without infinites, and to add greater value and uses to attacks beyond damage, speed etc. for additional depth in combat. As for the suggestion, it sounds very familiar though I can't place it exactly since a bunch of games do similar things, but I also feel like the more obvious continuation of such a mechanic would be an assist button, where you either set an attack for the party member or which one used is context-based, and they'll do it when you press the button. Then the act of finding when you prefer to use it is still left in the hands of the player, rather than it being automatic even if you might not want it. Assists are also a pretty common mechanic but for good reason.
Shit, you're right. An assist button is way more intuitive. Good idea.
>Keep in mind a large proportion of the complaints boil down to "it's not realistic!" or "it's been done a lot!"
I don't think anyone's said that in this thread. Everyone has given specific reasons they don't like certain mechanics.
>hourly seething about FromSoft thread
Not even directly them. It's about people taking the wrong lessons from them, and not stuff like level design with interesting arenas for encounters and a bestiary to match older JRPGs where they could get away with insane enemy variety since they were just a single sprite.
Stop presenting everything with the template of a preexisting meme you fricking moronic lazy homosexual.
>Arise chases the FromSoft and Platinum crowds
>forgot to have the stellar enemy and boss design/variety they're known for
>tales of
>stellar enemy variety
I'm a Tales fan but come on now. Those games are riddled with recolors and most games have very similar enemy rosters, sometimes even reusing assets from previous games
I was saying they should've copied that aspect of Bayonetta and Bloodborne/DS3, if they were going to steal perfect dodge and other mechanics form them. Vesperia wasn't bad about this, from what I remember, though.
>and most games have very similar enemy rosters, sometimes even reusing assets from previous game
This isn't a problem as long as you're always adding more.
Nioh does it best and did it before it was popular
>those that genuinely like a game and understand how it works implements a mechanic properly
>those that just go with trends get it wrong
Tale as old as time.
Only shitters like stagger bars.
because years of for honor has given me the idea that focus test groups are shit on games on purpose and challenge beyond one attack button is considered beyond challenging for casual players
>Do damage normally
>Fights are typically paced well for the damage you deal
>Give everything a stagger meter
>Now everything is padded out because you need to do piddly b***h damage for three minutes before you're allowed to do real damage
I have always hated stagger meters and I'm glad some people on Ganker understand my hate. I think I've only ever liked this in Sekiro, I hate it in pretty much every other game that has it. And I ESPECIALLY fricking hate it in JRPGs.
I'm not a game developer but wouldn't animation reading be better than input reading? Like if a boss recognizes that the player animation is partway through "Block.whateverfilename" the boss does an action. On a scale of 1 to 10 how moronic is this
Elden Ring does exactly that and this place is still whining and moaning about it since the years ago.
You just can't please people.
It is a bit too early in the animation, to be honest, but it's not a terrible idea. From's biggest problem with their recent games is giving the enemies and bosses DMC-tier stuff while the player isn't even at Dragon's Dogma level
>from's problem
>highest selling game they have made
>highest quality game they have made
kek, Gankeriggers are funny
Stagger is fine too if it's used well tbh
Are League, FC [since they lost the rights to FIFA] and MW3R good games?
>ignores one line
holy KEK
seethe harder Gankerigger, I'm sure your slop will one day catch on with other 20 IQ hispanics
>le muh speed
filtered shitter
I like the stagger mechanics in MH games, but the stagger meters in modern arpg like FF16 can suck a dick.
How does stagger work in MH?
Each body part has it's own value you can deplete with damage. When you reach the threshold you get a reaction. Usually if you aim for the legs the monster falls down. If you go for the head the monster flinches and if you aim for the tail you can cut it. MH is a bit more complicated with things like monster stamina and exhaustion and different damage types like K.O damage or elemental damage etc.
Of course, a thing you have to remember is that MH is 100% specialized into fighting large and nonhumanoid bosses. Most games with a generalized stagger meter are splitting the difference between all "weight classes" with one mechanic, whereas in MH the part-based design makes scale work naturally but forces them to design small monsters as annoyances at worst and would make duel-ish combat near impossible to enjoy.
It also doesn't really serve the same purpose. Most people argue for stagger meters or hitstun or something to give the player more control and agency within the fight, whereas MH is really focused on predictive play and the monster setting the pace, with the staggers being a significant reward mostly akin to how stagger meters are used now. (Albeit far, far more intricately designed.)
What is stagger meter?
Can someone explain?
Thoughts on the stagger mechanic in Stranger Of Paradise?
it's just nioh but you go straight to the next phase
so, basically nioh
also you do way too much stagger if you even attempt a decent build
I didnt like that it was mutual. i really enjoyed that mechanics like wall bangs, crits, weakness exploit, and sweet spots increased break more than physical damage as a way to make aggressive combat more rewarding than chipping and playing safe. You can really see how most jobs benefit from staying in combat rather than playing defense/neutral even though your own tools to keep you in combat will lower your break gauge as well. Chaos mode makes breaks almost mandatory because enemies take so little HP damage, it really ruins those fights with enemies that dont flinch when you hit them like the lightning dog things or ogres because you have to beat them in one fluid engagement or else they just get all their break back and still have most of their hp.
>bosses
Honestly i dont see the point of break on bosses. I would never take a class like berserker, breaker, black mage, etc into a boss fight anyways. i like to slowly chip the bosses down with basic attacks and spam buffs
>Chaos mode
>enemies take so little HP damage
I knew I should have left this thread 5 posts in with how much dumb shit I've read through but this is the straw. Besides that obvious falsehood when the game only starts recovering from having enemies be far too weak at maybe Bahamut mode, all your abilities do max Break damage for a reason. Lightbringer gives you huge max Break damage on everything and refills your own Break gauges for a reason. If you're ignoring your tools that's your problem. The actual issue with Break is that it offers an instakill which is the most boring form of this mechanic. The bar becomes just another health bar, it doesn't change the flow of the fight or how you can approach in a meaningful way and this doesn't add new interesting ways to make use of your abilities to make for a greater sense of back and forth between the enemy or a satisfying payoff of damage that you yourself create. Now, Stranger of Paradise is an extremely good game, so it's well designed enough to make up for this in many other ways, but it doesn't change that if Break was treated more like Nioh's Ki, and maintained a constant balance between doing HP and Break damage that can be informed by the fight, then it would be even better than it is now.
>dude now you get to mash the button for a few seconds
Sekiro is the only game with a good stagger system
What makes you say that?
You're actually right.
Feel like Monster Hunter does it best in a way that makes it feel "natural". You knock the frick out of the monsters and can now frick them up. A literal stagger bar feels so fricking scripted. When I see the bar, I feel like I'm just fighting the bar, not the boss itself.
>Feel like Monster Hunter does it best in a way that makes it feel "natural". You knock the frick out of the monsters and can now frick them up. A literal stagger bar feels so fricking scripted.
You do realize that the stagger bars have always existed in MH games, only that it's invisible, right?
The act of seeing changes anything a human does dramatically moron. Unless you want to argue say flying a plane without gauges is just like flying it with gauges
Not really, stun gauges are fun anyway
>revenge values or combo breakers
These are way worse mechanics
extremely schizophrenic post and complaint but it sounds like you just want to play fighting games.
>humanoid enemies always get stuck in a combo until you drop it, and only very rarely tank your hits using armor, if the character even has that as an option
most fromsoft games dont' let you stagger enemies beyond 1-2 hits with the exception of elden ring, and in most arpgs the amount of hits you get for a combo isn't long. ARPGs pretty much always let you only get a few hits in after the enemies miss their telegraphed attacks, that's how the genre works. You really should trying playing Yakuza if this bothers you in other ARPGS, or just switch to DMC or fighting games if you want something that lets you combo as much as you want
Of what I've seen of stagger bars in Square Enix games, they were definitely extremely annoying downgrades compared to just fricking having a boss fight with a cool moveset to weave through to slap the boss down with your weapons like a normal game.
I also didn't like it in FFXIII, for similar reasons.
It becomes too monolithic a mechanic, and all strategy boils down to "fill stagger bar as quick as possible, do as much damage as you can while it is full"
I think FF7 Rebirth has the best stagger system, you read what opens up the enemy (pressure) then fill up stagger quickly and melt their hp. It's not as shit as it was in Remake or other games with stagger imo.
Rebirth also lets you juggle enemies when they're just pressured and not fully staggered which is nice, enemies aren't vulnerable only when staggered.
Shame it also has enemies that have like 3 second long counter animations that they trigger every single time you swing your weapon close to them except for when they're doing specific attacks
>I think FF7 Rebirth has the best stagger system
Does it still have a visible meter and the objectively dogshit design where arbitrary thresholds make the enemy invincible during "cinematic" phase changes that waste their stagger and any ATB and limits you used?
yep, I used an attack that crit the boss straight into invincibility once with over half the stagger left. Felt bad
Then I definitely don't feel bad missing out on the gameplay because I want nothing to do with the shit writing.
the consequences of this singular 7/10 game have been an absolute disaster
How much shit nobody likes did it popularize aside from stagger meters?-
Is it really XIII's fault? I might be wrong but I don't remember thinking about the combat system to be particularly revolutionary, also I'm pretty sure I saw similar mechanics somewhere before. Also isn't adding stagger bar mechanics a fairly new phenomenon relative to how old XIII is?
Stagger bars quite literally did not exist pre-FFXIII. At least not in the way they used it.
No one will admit it but KH3 ReMind perfected boss combat and I will not apologize for saying it.
Also FRICK Tales of Arise combat. The most shameless hpSponge bs in any game on earth.
The data fights were shit. Yozora was shit. Poke of death where you're spamming dodge roll to avoid strings that one shot you combined with bosses that have arbitrary hyper armor and super defense is objectively dogshit design, and on top of it the air slide step ruins any sense of spacing. It's literally a game of waiting and simon says.
All enemy a.i should function like the second dante boss on dmd from DMC4.
I really wish I was good at NiOh
Stagger meters existed before Sekiro you fricking moron.
Where'd this weird autism come from? Acting like all systems must be the same and simply not playing games with systems you dislike is an impossibility
How come there's no Tigrex version of this, it actually does jump out of the zone like that
Action/ARPGs to be homogenized like third person shooter, all over the shoulder look with slow movement for cinematic so no one gets left out and everything can be enjoyed by everyone.
am I the only one who thought AC6 handled stagger extremely well? You weren't gimped if you couldn't stagger a boss, it was just a nice bit of bonus damage every once in a while
the stagger bonus was like 3x to 4x damage. you were absolutely gimped if you couldn't stagger them
you will run out of ammo if you aren't staggering
>you were absolutely gimped if you couldn't stagger them
>you will run out of ammo if you aren't staggering
nah, I'll just bring more bullets
The problem with AC6's stagger is just that the stagger damage is too overtuned, and most regular enemies are already weak enough.
Also hardlock lol
>Also hardlock lol
softlock is superior in every way though, so it's not a huge deal
I shit on ibis and ayre with laser weapons just pew pewing, not going for staggers at all.
You stupid? You were absolutely gimped if you didn't stagger enemies. Fighting them without staggering them makes you run out of ammo, and when you get staggered, you can get one shot.
You can do fine with low stagger build, if you consistently deal damage, know your damage window, and just don't mindlessly hold down the trigger when most of your shot will miss
You'll still get some stagger, while doing more raw damage per hit, and basically kill boss in reasonable time anyway
your damage window is when the boss is staggered
For burst damage strat sure, but you can still do decenr damage during non-stagger window with some weapons
That's pretty much how I played with an energy heavy build. A lot of fights were probably way harder than they should have been, but it was doable.
The game is beatable, but it's way too much of a slog, and certain fights like ayre are damn near impossible without stagger cheesing since you'll run out of ammo. The game was clearly balanced around the stagger, which makes it feel like an inauthentic AC game.
this is a build specific thing, like a high energy build which is typical awful for stagger
and these builds are usually a bit subpar for some of the more significant bosses. theyre definitely more fun though
RPG mechanics and its consequences has been a disaster for the action game genre
RPG mechanics are what make action games fun. No one wants to play an action game where you have your character's full moveset and all weapons/abilities unlocked from the start.
>"Progression is.....fun?"
yes dipshit
if an action game isn't fun without leveling up and making numbers get bigger it's a bad action game
sure, bad ARPGs fall into that hole, but good ARPGs make a fun action game foundation and augment it with the RPG progression system
>but good ARPGs make a fun action game foundation and augment it with the RPG progression system
there is no agumentation, it can only make the balance and polish worse, it only appeals to gamerbrained dopamine addicts who should just transition to playing clicker games instead
>there is no augmentation, it can only make the balance and polish worse
source: my ass
Im not a fan of stagger at all, just make the enemy compelling and dangerous and theres no need for two bars.
BUT. Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth has the best stagger system I’ve seen yet. Stagger bar doesn’t always mean you can’t do damage, its that your damage is heightened by 1.5x, 2x, 3x. How you stagger your enemy is almost always different, asking for different elements, different attacks, status effects and such. It requires you to engage with all of the games systems much more thoroughly when you have to figure out what the boss wants you to do in order to stagger.
Personally, I don’t think it’s necessary. But when it’s there, I want it to be like Rebirth.
>actually listing revenge values as a good mechanic
Easily the worst and most arbitrary shitty mechanic in KH2.
>Fromsoft invented stunning
Well they invented christianity, architecture, video games, the concept of storytelling, and art so I'm not surprised they get the credit for that too
Revenge values fricking suck though.
What would you say works better to make bosses constant threats while still offering combo potential in flashier games? I'd be fine with a stagger bar that doesn't take minutes on end to fill, at the cost of maybe depleting either a bit per hit, or instantly if you drop a combo.
Like people have said, Nioh 1 and 2 got this shit down to an artform right away. The only thing they need to fix/expand on is giving human bosses faster Ki recovery as they're Ki broken over time to prevent infinites. That way they can stay unique rather than just taking Ronin's way out of essentially giving them hybrid Yokai Ki, even if that works just fine.
Nioh gives yokai super armor for 90% of the fight. Is that really what you want?
Armored core system is also fairly similiar to Nioh 1/2's yokai ki. It's just that weapons were kinda poorly balanced on release with the best weapons doing too good stagger AND health damage. Though, people might just simply complain about armored core because it is a from game.
>Nioh 1 and 2 got this shit down to an artform right away.
No they didn't, they are all over the place. With enemies that have living weapon you are constantly backpedaling and playing passively to fast movesets. If they don't it's farily easy to stunlock them because of the stamina cheating mechanic
You already know what I'm going to say before I say it. Skill issue, you have far more to learn about bosses and your moveset, considering he's the simplest to approach. For a start, you never want to use default grapples on humans unless you need the iframes or they'll die from it. It does substantially less damage than a dedicated combo, let alone pressuring by keeping their Ki at 0 for as long as possible.
>it's a skill issue that you can perma stunlock bosses
stop using words you don't know the meaning of
B-b-blacksuke?! n-not the Black personino
>What would you say works better to make bosses constant threats while still offering combo potential in flashier games?
Resets to neutral and pushback after your combo finishers or certain linkers. Also just don't have infinite combos.
Make it a constant thing. Instead of a big stagger for a big pay off, make it smaller. Like imagine a basic 3 hit combo, it will do enough stagger to make the enemy flinch on the third hit. But if you try to attack through one of their attacks you'll get punished. That's all it would be, a flinch.
At the end of the day I want something that's more of a back and forth interaction rather than hit some arbitrary meter and do my big combos. And give risk/reward to using bigger damage attacks that take a while to do.
That's kind of Wuthering Waves and the new GoW games do. They have a layer of super armor to get through before you can juggle them for a couple seconds.
every single action game ever made has had a stagger system. you can't actually name 1 that doesn't
>revenge values
These were NEVER fun.
TWEWY, NEO TWEWY and Sekiro do not have this problem. Play better games
Why not merge stamina and stagger together, with "elite" AI [bosses and AI party members] automatically blocking or dodging until it runs out, unless hit when animation locked where they can break out after about 3 hits?
>doesn't take forever to break when you know what you're doing
>makes sense IRL
>allows for whiff punishes and generally rewarding you for proper spacing
>naturally prevents infinites on your end
Rise of the Ronin expands on the shorter guaranteed combos that Nioh had on humans with the panic system and Counterspark, an attack that works like a deflect. Normally after a time period of about 2 hits enemies will block their way out if another attack is coming fast enough, in Ronin if you deflect their attacks they become panicked and this increases their stagger so that they can't block for longer until it runs out. This is on top of having a Ki system for greater openings though along with rewards for aggression and positioning, and neither take long to break.
It's a skill issue if you can't even do that, and particularly a skill issue if you think you have to constantly play passively on the few Living Weapon bosses in the game. If that webm is indeed you, you didn't use a single skill or Yokai Skill to try and bring down his Ki. Well, you accidentally used the stance swap skill once.
Lies of P has realistic human boss fights. Another loss for fromsoftware trannies.
>hit regular guy [the boss in the small room in the factory/sewer level] with the Wo Long collab spear during recovery animation
>no hitstun
"Realistic" my ass.
the glaive isnt a heavy weapon, only high hitstun attacks it has is the 3 bar weapon art and square square tringle helm splitter
I thought Lie of P was about people starving on a boat or something
Threads reeks of dragonirian
Stagger aka pressure meters are just the newest "gimmick" in a long line of mechanics that were ok in games they were built for that are now being shoved in everywhere.
See also: dodge roll, estus, refilling health, 2 gun limit, ect.
If you think stagger bars are not overused at this point, and devs really need to take a step back, I would like to point out to everyone that they even put a stagger meter in the newest nhl. Goalies have it and you can't really score until it's filled.
Stagger meters aren't a gimmick. A lolcow is lolcowing.
They are in sports games now, they are officially a gimmick.
>dodge roll
Said it before, I’ll say it again, instant i-frames have been an unequivocal disaster for enemy and boss design for like the entire last decade.
Correct. Though to me, the issue stems from getting too many iframes on-demand with little commitment so that it becomes a universal defensive option. If you take positioning out of the equation, then perfect dodges with <10 frame windows can be a healthy option for a game. No, this isn't the same thing as stupid deflects which completely nullify attacks when absorbed.
Sadly that's a conversation most people aren't willing to have at this point in time
Based. Other issues aside, I really love Itsuno's design philosophy and what he did with DD2 combat fundamentally.
forget dodge rolls, DD2 has abilities that make you invincible for 10+ seconds
Like what? DD2 doesn't have the same kind of iframes 1 did. I've been hit out of pretty much every move in multiple scenarios.
Mystic Spearhand has a bubble skill that makes your entire party invulnerable for about 8 seconds. In that 8 seconds you can regen enough stamina to use the bubble again. If you keep casting it and not wasting stamina (normal attacks use no stamina and allow you to keep regenerating) you can stay invulnerable for as long as you want. No enemy in the game has an answer to this.
Another one is a Thief self-buff that slowly consumes stamina while making you invulnerable. It can't be kept up indefinitely, but takes like a minute to eat all your stamina.
When you said abilities I thought you meant plural. But yeah, the spearhand bubble is fricking stupid. That said, it's still not complete iframes because you can be staggered by certain moves.
you can just eat potatoes in your inventory to keep the thief invincibility up forever, can't you?
If you have infinity potatoes
In addition to the gamebreaking literal invincibility skills (Mirour Shelde and Formless Feint) there's also iframe attacks and parries like masterfull kill/tidal fury or the dodge slash on fighter. Plus fighter's shield spin that is basically a balanced version of Full Moon Slash from the first game. I do wish Riotous Fury gave you iframes once the combo started though.
AI being "too good" != AI acting like a real person.
A perfect AI would be one of the least humanoid players. At least shitty dumb AI still sort of plays like a moronic person would, no human plays like a theoretical perfect game AI would.
Actual "good" AI in a game would mean that it has a believable human reaction time to everything, doesn't land perfect execution mechanics 100% of the time but still does them consistently, doesn't dodge/block perfectly 100% of the time but still does so consistently, and actually uses some form of strategy in fights instead of just mindlessly attacking the player.
Outside of the spearhand bubble and maybe formless feint (I didn't play thief much), you can be hit out of those, and even the spearhand bubble can be staggered. And calling a timed parry like tidal fury iframes is silly because it you mistime the start up you lose stamina during the animation and then are vulnerable after. The game operates on moves giving you increased defense and stagger resist, which is great and much better than universal iframes buttons. Spearhand shield not withstanding. That move is dumb.
The counter moves are great and reward you for good timing while punishing you for poor timing. Personally I prefer using the dragoon jump on spearhand over the shield because the shield is boring and the jump is good offensively even without the damage buff from evading.
Formeless Feint and Mirour Shelde are a bit broken to say the least, but they really only need higher stamina cost to justify it, or some other form of duration limit/cooldown. Formless Feint doesn't let you get staggered, but when you get hit it does interrupt what you're doing to make you teleport. I also don't remember if it works while climbing, I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
Fighter's shield spin works while you're staggered and makes you effectively invincible for the duration. It does have an appropriately high stamina cost as a tradeoff unlike feint or mirror shield. Hindsight slash is also pretty good although I prefer to only run one of the two.
I feel like all the invincibility skills in DD2 are pretty well done besides mirror shield and formless feint. My main issues with the combat are lack of skill slots (even just one more would do wonders) and how gimped Sorcerer is. The only spell worth casting most of the time is Bolide or Maelstrom since they took away all the other tier 3 spells and the tier 2 spells in this game suck dick. Whoever thought Thundermine and Salamander were good spells, especially compared to Brontide and Comestion, needs to get raped by a horse, and whoever thought it was fine to remove Gicel and Fulmination from the game entirely should have a lego set inserted into their urethra one piece at a time while plague rats gnaw on their testicles.
>The counter moves are great and reward you for good timing while punishing you for poor timing.
Yes, and that's not a universal iframes button. That's a counter, which is good.
>My main issues with the combat are lack of skill slots
My biggest complaints are that you get 12 kinds of stagger from everything, they removed secondary combos despite adding some stuff like tusk toss being a hold square, and then the lack of skills after that. I can't be too mad at the lack of gicel when frigor is so fricking fun.
>Actual "good" AI in a game would mean that it has a believable human reaction time to everything, doesn't land perfect execution mechanics 100% of the time but still does them consistently, doesn't dodge/block perfectly 100% of the time but still does so consistently, and actually uses some form of strategy in fights
fricking this. i desperately need a game with an AI like this
also hopefuly an AI that is capable of getting hit by predictable normal counter attacks, but keeps track of if its being countered in the same intended manner repeatedly & stops using it if the player is good at punishing it.
If Mr. Freeze can counter ways to stun him in his fight in Arkham City, I don't see why there couldn't be something similar in a regular action game,
What are some good games with no I-frame dodges and the sharp hitboxes to match? [So no DS2]
Ys: The Oath in Felghana. The only invincibility is a magic attacks that costs 1/3 of your MP and leaves you wide open at the end of the animation, plus you only get it before the semifinal dungeon. It's more of a get out of jail free card in exchange for a resource you could be using on damage than a "use this to avoid everything" move like dodges are in standard action games.
Felghana also has the best healing system in any ARPG (none).
I like having dodges as, like you said, repositioning tools and being able to avoid damage entirely with good timing, though.
Felghana also has wind magic for gliding, the earth magic has a dash, and you have a dash attack for moving quickly while attacking, plus unlike most action games you move are insanely agile at a base rate. Adol moves at mach fricking speed when you unlock dashing and you have full aerial mobility for avoiding hits. It's all based on your skill and reaction times rather than pressing an invincibility button.
Oath in Felghana was so fricking tough goddamn. Still proud of beating that game.
oof, that's gonna be a yikes from me dawg, looks way too difficult
Oath is a perfect example of "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
You got one combo, three spells, and a jump.
Nothing complex, but when paired with enemy attack patterns it creates an fun dance for the player.
Dodges itself aren't the problem, it's the amount of I-frames that are. Make the player have to make sure they don't actually get hit by something, since accurate hitboxes have a five-click solution nowadays.
Nah, universal iframes suck. Dodge rolls should be for repositioning as well going under high attacks. A dodge roll shouldn't phase you through a fireball no matter how well you time it.
the only game i've ever seen to bother with this is viewtiful joe
vj3 never
I actually really liked how RE4 implemented the ducks and I hope more games do stuff like that. Capcom games usually take cues from fighting game mechanics which is why so many of them end up so good.
>A dodge roll shouldn't phase you through a fireball no matter how well you time it.
Why not? I-framing through a fireball is functionally rolling under it. And any fire attack that touches the ground like some fire tornado or some shit can almost never be I framed
>Why not? I-framing through a fireball is functionally rolling under it.
Because it's not a "high" attack. It's a fireball inches off the ground.
>And any fire attack that touches the ground like some fire tornado or some shit can almost never be I framed
It's like you've never actually played a From game. You can iframe roll through a fricking gravity AoE hold. That's how I beat all the fallen star beasts in ER.
There's not much wrong with having iframe dodge mechanics. It only becomes an issue when there is far too many iframes that are able to cover any and all attacks with not enough of a cost or recovery to warrant them, especially if there are other potential options available that would be more valuable or have more to them like attacks that naturally avoid things by jumping/ducking. This demonization of iframes as a whole though is a moronic kneejerk reaction to them being badly implemented to the detriment of said other options.
Assault Spy still has my favorite way of handling bosses with stagger meters in any action game.
Bosses start out the fight with a full meter. You have to play hit and run with them to lower it. Using high risk attacks does more damage to the meter. Once the meter empties, the boss "breaks" and is now completely vulnerable to juggles and hitstun the same way the regular grunts are for a limited time until it refills, meaning you can go to fricking town on them.
It encourages highly aggressive play, forces you to know good combos to maximize damage in the shortest time possible and to learn the attack patterns to avoid damage.
game looks cool
your description also matches nioh's system word for word which is why people like it
I agree. I'd prefer that it if the Stagger mechanic is tied to the HP meter. Instead of having it's own dedicated meter.
Just imagine if they ever make an ARPG. Should make it LMBS so they can keep it 2D.
Project Moon is in a much better place just focusing on their gacha game for now.
Doing this would make combat favor multihit skills overall.
>Hit enemy with one big attack
>They stagger, but all of that damage was done at once so there's no boost
>Hit an enemy with multiple medium attacks that add up to the big attack
>They stagger in the middle of the attack, multiplying the rest of the hits
The way to balance that would be to make multi-hit attacks hard to pull off or have some kind of drawback. Like the Rip Space attack you posted.
I mean, not necessarily. Limbus stagger is still tied to damage, if you do 5 hits but they all do 1 damage, you're still only going to do 5 hits.
Not quite, from what I can remember. If there is an opponent with 10 HP and has a stagger bar at 8, then the damage is a lot more for the 5 1 DMG hits.
>5 damage attack staggers the enemy and reduces it to 5 HP
>First two hits stagger the enemy, next three hits do double damage and reduce the enemy to 2 HP
A 1 Coin attack does 100 damage by default. A 5 Coin attack does 100 damage by default.
Once an enemy is staggered, they begin to take 1.5x damage. If you hit them with the 1 Coin attack, it does 100 damage and the enemy becomes staggered. If you use the 5 Coin attack, the first tick does 20 damage, but that tick staggers the enemy, and the next 4 coins do 30 damage each doing a total of 140 damage. In any other game this is intuitive; in AC6, you want to PUNISH with the Pilebunker because it will do way more damage than hitting them raw, so you have to hit them with a pistol or a shotgun instead first.
And that's how you balance it, you make singular attacks really good at obliterating staggered targets, or give it a Tremor Burst functionality that raises the % of HP the stagger threshold is.
Even in Limbus there is a tradeoff because single hit skills are notably more consistent in clashes at high sanity.
So less damage but better odds of winning a clash.
Extrapolating that to other games takes creativity but can be done in several ways.
'Single hit' are maybe more faster and more consitent while 'multi hit' will tend to miss some (if the enemy isn't staggered) or get you stuck in an animation for longer.
>there is a tradeoff because single hit skills are notably more consistent in clashes at high sanity.
But losing clashes is why everyone hates single coins???
It was a much bigger thing at the start of the game when max sanity only gave a 70% heads chance, which made the multi coin more likely win because after losing a coin removing the rest was unlikely (a 24% chance vs 4 coin extra)
But at the current state where heads is a 95% chance at max sanity if you put a single coin skill vs a 2/3/4 coin multi coin skill that roll the same max value the single coin skill is likely to win and remove all the remaining coins (an 81% chance vs 4 coins extra)
Eternights isn't a combo game, but I like it's implementation. Basically you have a special attack that you usually need to use 2-3 times to break the shield and charges up by performing normals and perfect dodges. Afterwards the boss takes damage and hitstun.
Specifically in party-based ARPGs, why not have support mages that can grant super armor to other characters on a team, with there being a rival party to test how you'd deal with your own tactics turned against you?
>Specifically in party-based ARPGs, why not have support mages that can grant super armor to other characters on a team,
this exists in final fantasy 13 and its sequel and works pretty well
Spergs like OP think that their stupid, unpopular opinions should be taken seriously.
Sekiro is the best action game ever made and Armored Core 6 was a masterpiece.
Fromsoftware specifically prides itself of making highly dynamic enemies that don't rely on broken poise values.
>highly dynamic enemies
If their behavior is predictable and you can get it to repeat the same way every time, then it's literally not dynamic.
No. There were exactly 2 types of bosses pre-souls. Ones you could not stagger at all, and ones that were invincible while staggered.
Boy, I sure LOOOOVE having nothing meaningful change about the way the game plays other than having boss HP move like a windows progress bar instead of depleting at a normalized rate! It's really great when my action game is designed to make my attacks feel pitiful and useless 90% of the time! Especially in games that are almost universally designed to prevent the player from being able to attack for most of the duration of combat!
God I hate Final Fantasy XIII for popularizing this garbage. The revenge system in KH2 would be perfect with slight tweaks (either a revenge meter or listing revenge buildup on the player's attacks and maybe a skill to see enemy revenge values) and I'll never forgive SE for just dumping it after one game.
Shazamtrannies will b***h about about anything and blame FromSoft for it.
Elden Ring is a great game, but what other games than either FFXIII or DS1 could've sparked this trend?
Kek. What ARPGs do you like?
>Tales of Arse
>Genshit Incel
>Final Fart
frick revenge values and frick combo breakers
i WANT to beat my enemies' fricking skulls in until they die or i slip up. that's my whole point.
real and true
stagger meters are somewhat acceptable if the game is 80% RPG and 20% Action but otherwise frick right off with that shit
even massive enemies, it's much more fun to do it like monster hunter and tie it to partbreaks
>Look at what developers poorly copying FromSoft
This moron actually thinks FromSoft invented stagger meter systems in videogames.
As if DMC3's moronic DT stagger system that came out half a decade before Demon's Souls didn't exist.
As if Monster Hunter hasn't had invisible topple systems in place since forever.
you don't get it m8. They didn't invent stagger mechanics, but other devs are copying their implementation of stagger mechanics.
i dont agree with this
Sekiro's stagger was completely different from the stagger mostly described ITT. AC6's stagger is horrendous but its so recent that you cant call it responsible for the trend
monster hunter is a Souls clone
>Ganker forgets that someone can mean a game mechanic or art style was POPULARIZED by a developer, and not wholly invented, for the umpteenth time
yea I fricking hate stagger so much
Such an anti-fun mechanic when it's just some shitty gauge to fill on an otherwise unflinching enemy. Almost as bullshit as invulnerable phase.
This is why Tales of Arise si fricking dogshit. I turned difficulty to Easy because EVERYTHING IS FRICKING SPONGE, EVEN MOBS
Also, we had reactivity of boss battles on the fricking NES. There is no excuse for this shit in the current age. You hit a boss and it would flash and show its damage sometimes. You could blow parts off. Now? Just keep pushing x until you win.... or some shit.
Stagger system is shit, I got filtered playing FF since 13
Did classic resident evil games copy From Software for its zombie knee stagger mechanics?
>Ganker makes a game
>it has homosexual meters
Based, make it so that when the homosexual meter hits its limit the character troons out and you frick them into submission.
This can happen to the player as well.
I like stagger meters, when properly implemented they act as a reward system for playing well for a certain period of time. Games dont have to have them but they are great for big fancy showoff moves that most games like to have and most players like to use.
Revenge / Counterattacking enemies are too hard for most gamers. It's much simpler to just have the knockdown gauge. I'm not saying this is a good thing - I hate it. It's just a fact that the gaming industry tends to cater to normies now.
>OP
>get his butthole FRICKED meter
I don't mind it. Infact the only game I think did it really badly was Final Fantasy 13. Having the whole fricking combat system centered around it was dumb.
>he hasn't played Tales of Arise, Nioh, or Sekiro
Just smile and nod boys, smile and nod.
I don't play weeb shit anymore, except for Sekiro but I liked it in that game
>20/20/20/20/20 good
>5/5/5/5/80 bad
Yes
Did you try to get some point across with this post or are you just adding to the bump limit
the point is anyone thinking there is a difference is moronic.
Yes there is
Imagine a boss has 30 HP left
>20-40 - 2 hit kill, 10 HP overkill
>5-10-15-20-100 - 5 hit kill, 70 HP overkill
Stagger and punishment is HP padding from hell that forces attack rotations on cooldown, not combos
Holding back attacks because you are about to stagger an enemy and you need to maximize your damage during stagger to justify even having the attack at all, instead of just fricking killing them, really fricking sucks
And not to mention that you can possibly squib the punish, resulting not in 5/5/5/5/80 but 5/5/5/5/50 or someshit because the attack that you hit the boss with to send them into stagger can't be used again during the stagger vulnerability window.
There's also the fact players can, as a fluke, one-two cycle lots of bosses because something is really busted at stagger punishing, making it 5/5/5/5/500 or some shit. Killing a boss quickly before it has a chance to use all of its moves cheapens the whole encounter, especially if it's something a new player can just fricking pick up and do.
what is that game on the right?
I have no problem with difficult boss fights that make you fight them multiple times but
A)There cant be significant RNG. It's extremely frustrating to just have to keep spamming the fight until the enemy AI decides to let you win.
B)There should never be a walk back to the boss. Just let me fight the boss again. That's the real content, that's what I want to engage with. I don't want to spend 80% of the time walking to the boss and 20% fighting him. Time is very valuable so if a game is intentionally wasting my time like that I'm not going to keep playing it and the developer is dead to me.
>B)There should never be a walk back to the boss. Just let me fight the boss again. That's the real content, that's what I want to engage with. I don't want to spend 80% of the time walking to the boss and 20% fighting him. Time is very valuable so if a game is intentionally wasting my time like that I'm not going to keep playing it and the developer is dead to me.
I am kind of torn on this. On one hand, there should be some kind of punishment or setback for failing/dying. On the other hand, boss walk backs usually add nothing except time, and I guess having to re-try the boss already fulfills the same purpose to an extent.
Incorrect may may usage
Did you seriously make a shitpost into a seething rage image?
I like stagger meters. They work great in MH, Nioh, and Elden Ring. I can't think of an example of it being done badly.
It holds back AC6 to be quite honest
Just feels like mechanics for the sake of mechanics and it doesn't even play into anything
In 4/4A there was primal armor, which you would get fricked if you lost, but there were ways besides taking damage that would make you lose PA and that was mechanically interesting and you just get a fricking bar, a stun, and a damage multiplier in the mean time and you do frickall damage besides
I believe you, but I haven't played AC6 because I'm a poorgay.
I don't know. Stagger meters are pretty cringe only if you can see them. A fight is much more epic if you have to keep track of the current stagger value in your head yourself. Invisible stagger meter > visible one.
the current stagger that you don't know because nothing indicates how much stagger your moves do? great mechanic
stop stagger meters and start swagger meters
I wish games had something like an anime 覚えたぞ meaning: Ah now i got you figured out meter that triggers once an enemy stayed too long in the same fighting style letting the player connect more hits than before. This would be pretty epic. Simple trash mobs would only have one fighting style so any player of any skill level could fight them. But more advanced enemies and bosses would get multiple styles which they would switch to once they got hit a few times due to the players 覚えたぞ meter. Also imagine combining this with a stagger system. A competent player could manage to stagger a boss often, keeping them from switching fighting styles which in turn lets the player kill them faster.
I liked the stamina/yokai meter mechanics in Nioh. Devs just need to give us ways to actually deal with it instead of just making it a glorified super armor meter.
Sekiro was shit and I’m so tired of everyone pretending it wasn’t.
Disregard stun meter mechanics.
Embrace enemy bull charging at you but you jump over him so he hits his head on the wall and then you hit his butt while he is stunned.
>genshin screenshot in the middle
That's not a stagger meter you dumb fricking moron, that's a phase change meter