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this gen is such a fricking meme can we skip it already
It's only going to get worse buddy
>fanfic garbage
how is this relevant
Hey verlisify
Relevant to what? Fan content isn't allowed on /vp/? Since when?
t. furgay cucked by Smogon
The only other alternative is a format that exists solely to goad you into spending money to fly around so that TPC can directly advertise Pokemon products to you and siphon even MORE money from your wallet.
I'm glad they're finally allowing Pokemon to drop several tiers at a time.
Only for Pokemon that were previously in that tier
Clearly not because Wyrdeer has never been tiered before.
They only do that for the first month of the meta.
>Cress, Mew, Diance, Ena-T, Goodra-H and Breelom dropping to UU
Jesus christ power creep was really a mistake
Mew was UU as soon as it was released from Uber.
This is more of a comment on how Smogon usage has tiers that are way too bloated more than anything.
Nearly all of these pokemon are still viable in OU, I mean clearly with how things like Basculegion and Thundurus have been. There's just TOO MANY strong Pokemon for the tier to fit them properly, so anything with a more niche purpose, while playable, wont find the usage numbers. OU-UU cutoff no longer has the implications it did years ago.
UU and lower Pokemon being viable in OU has literally always been the case. The game also has fewer Pokemon to tier than it did 17 years ago
>UU and lower Pokemon being viable in OU has literally always been the case.
Yes, but the difference now is significantly more dramatic. In older gens, up to about Gen 4 or so, there were a hand full that you could say that about, with even tier kings of UU often not being viable in OU. In later gens, its virtually all of UU with only a few exceptions where things are outclassed, and even dipping into RU.
>The game also has fewer Pokemon to tier than it did 17 years ago
Right, that's the point. There's just more Pokemon period. Not being OU isn't a death knell like non-players on /vp/ seem to think
>Yes, but the difference now is significantly more dramatic. In older gens, up to about Gen 4 or so, there were a hand full that you could say that about, with even tier kings of UU often not being viable in OU.
No, moron, usage has never equated to viability ever. Usage = viability is the most common noob trap there is. I also don't know why you picked DPP, that gen specifically is known as the one where just about everything is viable in OU.
>Right, that's the point. There's just more Pokemon period.
No, that's not the point at all? There are fewer Pokemon period.
>No, moron, usage has never equated to viability ever.
Literally my point I was making, moron-kun.
>Literally my point I was making, moron-kun.
>OU-UU cutoff no longer has the implications it did years ago.
seems like you were saying the opposite bro
Alright, let me be super clear then, to clear any misunderstanding for you or anyone else.
As you know, Smogon tiering philosophy is that instead of ranking pokemon into tiers manually, where biases, misunderstood potential, and sheer workload issues are concerns, they use (almost) purely usage stats to determine this, with the idea being that Usage has a VERY LOSE correlation with viability. People will use what will give them the best odds at winning, and so good Pokemon will naturally rise.
This correlation is extremely lose, however, even without counting manual efforts like bans and what not, so they are strictly listed as USAGE tiers as a result.
However, due to the lose correlation of tiers and viability, lesser viable things will be, on average, in lower tiers still. The difference in the viability-to-tiers amount changes gen to gen, and especially with amount of Pokemon. In Gen 1, most things in UU and below were pretty clearly not cut out for OU play, due to the lower amount of Pokemon (though there were still exceptions, like Lapras, Golem, etc...). In a modern game, where power levels tend to be very high across the board, this aforementioned difference is significantly less noticeable between tiers, to the point where UU is basically an OU#2 in terms of viability.
This is the point that I'm making-- Mew isn't in UU because its unviable for OU play like a lot of anons think, it's in UU just due to the sheer amount of good pokemon in the game at the moment, and it's more niche role.
Also, as for
> I also don't know why you picked DPP
It's not a clear cut "this gen now has UU pokemon viable, this gen doesnt", but a slope. Gen 4's obviously got things like Clefable and Nidoqueen and whatnot, but its also an old gen where tiering doesnt shift anymore. Even though clearly incorrect, Clefable was thought to be unviable in the earlier days in Gen 4.
It's not a loose correlation, it's pretty strong. Meta shifts a lot, and some Pokemon that might've previously been viable lose steam and fall off until the meta shifts in their favor again. We've seen it a lot in Gen 8 where Rain (and Hail) would frequently dance in and out of OU. Rain would rise, rain counters would rise to give non-Rain teams a better shot, and then Pelipper and Barraskewda would fall to UU. Same thing has happened multiple times in Gen 9 already. When everyone is packing a Rain counter, Rain is dead in the water and thus completely unviable.
>No, that's not the point at all? There are fewer Pokemon period.
>Gen 1 - 151 Pokemon to tier
>Gen 9 - 514 Pokemon to tier
???
Usage isn’t a straight 1:1 to viability, but there is a massive correlation between the 2.
>Cress
Cresselia has always been a low tier hero in real Pokemon. It's much better in doubles because Trick Room is much better in doubles. That and Cresselia eats shit to Toxic, which is (was) common in singles while being never seen in doubles.
>Mew
Mew has been UU before. Twice. It has had as many OU placements as UU placements.
>Diancie
Absolute shitmon without its mega evolution.
>Enamorus-T
Enamorus-I is just flat out better, and species clause prevents you from running both.
>Goodra-H
We told you it really was not that good. Goodra is a shitmon, and giving it Steel type can only help it so much. It still has no sweeping potential, doesn't have utility to make it using in spite of its lackluster offenses, and it doesn't match up well against some of the most common offensive types in OU currently (Fairy, Fighting, Ghost, Dark, and especially Ground).
>Breloom
This happened in Gen 7 and it got banned to UUBL. Breloom dicks on UU harder than Staraptor used to.
Real shocker is Hisuian Avalugg not going straight to ZU.
Its likely because of Tera removing the horrible typing.
UU will be unplayable next month
>Hisuian Sliggoo already rose to NU
I knew it
skeledirgebros…
meowscaradabros...
She couldn't escape the frog forever
So Cinderace is the only Protean user, I guess Court Change and him being able to keep his ability after a Pyro Ball is that good.
"Protean user" isn't a niche. Cinderace is used because of how it interacts with hazard control, Court Change in particular, with the string cheese shitter running around. Having offensive capabilities alongside that is just a nice bonus.
Also fast Wisp lets it actually do something relevant into Tusk
Her dropping from the top 10 of OU to UU is fricking hilarious.
Literal fall from grace, Pokemon Home fricked her in the ass
Quaquaval and Skeledirge have always been better. Meowscarada got fraudchecked by all the good players returning to have fun with Home.
Tornadus-T without Knock Off is absolute garbage, kinda incredible how losing one move killed an entire mon
That can be said about a lot of drops. Rillaboom and Mew especially.
UU looks fun as frick. And what's up with Sandy Shocks? Are people realizing Gravity is fun as frick or is it just the combo of Earth Power/TBolt? The thing folds to Tusk so easily so it must have some non-obvious gimmick
What's Gravity for? Hitting flying mons with EP while having accurate Thunders?
Sandy shocks went up due to screens being fricking broken.
This is also the reason why dragapult went second, since he is the best screen setter in the game right now.
It does make me laugh that screens were this extremely rare if not gimmicky strategy in the original generations, but thanks to stuff like Aurora Veil and Prankster Grimmsnarl they have become so ubiquitous. But they've existed forever which is hilarious you just didn't lean on them so much. Really wondering if they get nerfed next gen
Screens were pretty common in Gen 4 for a while. Claydol was even OU by usage because of them. They just fell out of favor because the payoff wasn't usually that big. Your hard hitters were usually very frail, and Reflect isn't going to stop Weavile from eating absolute shit to stray hits like U-turn
>252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Weavile through Reflect: 268-316 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
What changed is that bulky offense became a lot more viable thanks to fat fricks like Ursaluna, Kingambit, Dragonite, Zamazenta, and Great Tusk as well as obscene set up sweepers like Baxcalibur, Dragonite, Volcarona, Magearna, and Sneasler. Before that, Espathra, Chi-Yu, Annihilape, and Chien-Pao made screens great again and had to eat bans for it.
aside from messing with light clay I don’t see anything being done to screens without removing it from grimmsnarl and alolan ninetales
Shocks is a popular HO lead just because Dual Screens + rocks
>Hoopa above Roaring Moon
Lol?
Landobros...
Game Freak nerfed our cute little lion buddy too much.
what's funny is that the genies are as good as ever in vgc
Genies didn't need Toxic, Knock Off, or Defog to work in VGC. Tornadus-I is flat out better in VGC because of Prankster Tailwind. Tornadus-I is an Articuno-tier shitmon in singles. Meanwhile, Landorus-I is the only banned genie in singles, while Landorus-I is never seen in Doubles because Landorus-T is so prevalent.
Difference between Sheer Force and Intimidate
One is unholy only in singles, while the other is just great everywhere. You dont ever see sheer force nidoking in vgc even if it was one of the best mons
Sheer Force has potential to be good in either mode, but Intimidate is hands-down the best ability in doubles.
I wouldn't say Intimidate is the best ability in Doubles. Drizzle, Drought, and Prankster are all better.
>The samurai starter is top 5 in OU
>The ninja starter is top 5 in UU
FRICKING b***h ASS ENAMOROUS.
This obnoxious piece of garbage sent Meowsca to UU.
Why does Game Freak keep making these garbage ass genies?
All of them are ugly as frick and always a pain in the ass to deal.
Landonrus is competitive aids, Tornadus is as frick obnoxious with regenerator, Thundurus ruined VGC and t-wave, confusion and prankster had to de nerfed because of this piece of trash.
Now you have this garbage ass Enamorous with this bullshit Fairy + Ground coverage that hits poison, steel and fire, the only shit that resist Fairy. This shit has no switch ins and has the one of the best defensive types with ground immunity and x4 fight resist.
>troonycat lover seething at actual 100% female mon
Memes reflect reality lmao
unironically defending Unova cancer genies, a.k.a. the worst mons ever made.
Cope about it moronic gatogay
It's a moronic sinnoh genie, thank you very much
And while it's AIDS nothing is worse than troony yiffshit.
Lol.
Lmao the furgay is seething
Maybe Meow should've just been a better mon.
Rest in shit Waifu cat, what an embarrassment of a Shillmon, couldn't even stay OU in it's own Gen and falling off the face of the Earth in VGC.
Hisuian Samurott did more damage honestly. Why use a Protean Spikes set that is easily walled when you can use an unblockable boosted Ceaseless Edge?
Meowsca role is not being a spiker. It's meant to break fat grass-weak shit like Garg, Dondozo, Rotom and Ting-Lu
Spikes has been used somewhat often and even then you have better Grass Pokémon to use.
Genuinely, have you tried Zapdos? It should be bulky enough to capitalize on the flying half of Fairy/Flying without immediately dying
>Zapdos
Most Zapdos are phys def and I'm sure it can't switch on moonblast
252 SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 186-219 (48.4 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
Nice "check"
>This obnoxious piece of garbage sent Meowsca to UU.
why would you be upset about this, it just means you can use meowsca in another tier that isn't ou or above
for those who do not understand you WANT your pokemon to be considered shit
for 2 reasons: 1 you can use them wherever, whenever and 2 winning with them or even using them causes more salt and confusion of compgays
>Iron treads never dropped to uu
>Rising in usage after home dropped
We gonna make it bros
Based Iron Treads enjoyer
>IT'S DA INFERIOR VERSION OF GREAT TU -ACK
Kek
Iron treads is in a rough spot.
Too good to drop, but still outclassed by his grandpa.
Iron Treads fills a nice niche on Rain teams
>Electric immune
>Rock resist
>Fast
>Volt switch for momentum
>Rapid spin to save Pelipper's ass
>Forms a decent defensive core with Pelipper
>Can be offensive or can go for more utility depending on the rest of the team
What an age for Poison.
Fairy type was a mistake.
>sandy wieners ou by usage now
Well I guess they don't have to suspect him anymore. Even amoung the drops it beats most of them.
>None of starters are OU anymore
Anyway, cat has any hope of climbing back to OU or sharing a tier with Talonflame is her dead end?
>Ubers Top 5
I feel like vomiting
>Ubers is a bunch of cool cover legends, dragons and gods and shit, and then ugly ass Calyrex
Glad this wienersuck is gone. Curious to see how itll look after. I'm surprised about Giratina-O though, as someone who hasn't touched Ubers in years, whats it doing exactly? Didnt Griseous get nerfed?
>Cyclizar #3
Love to see it. People seemed really mixed on this guy after it lost Shed Tail, but I've always held onto the firm belief that it has really strong utility qualities outside of that, even in OU.
is a bunch of cool cover legends, dragons and gods and shit, and then ugly ass Arceus
Fixed
>Sandy Shocks goes to OU by usage %
>Scizor does not because....
because ou is based on ou usage and uu is based on uu usage, moron
Ban Miraidon. It's more broken than prenerf Zacian.
Lmao ubers looks like turbo aids
If it's any consolation, Calyrex Shadow Rider got kicked to Anything Goes
>different held items count as different usage stats so one mon can rank multiple times
Wow what a stupid dumbass design.
Arceus forms have always been ranked separately. Same with Silvally, which actually matters for it because it's a ZU/PU/NU hero depending on its form and not permabanned like Arceus.
Because they are technically different forms. The item alone is not why.
Forms are all tiered separately because they oftentimes have different viability. Deoxys-D is not the same as Deoxys-A.
Yeah and a sashed mon may be fundamentally more viable than the same mon with lagging tail, but you wouldn't rank them separately.
>technically
Ok? Should we tier shinies separately too? That's a different form, technically.
>It's always been wrong, so it should stay wrong
Stupid argument, not even worth a counterargument. Waste of a post.
No Pokemon change their form while holding a Focus Sash.
One argument can't be used to answer an unrelated one. Sash brought up as a counterargument to the viability defense, not to the forms defense.
>One argument can't be used to answer an unrelated one
What unrelated argument? Forms are all tiered separately.
It's not wrong. Separate forms have always been ranked seperately, even if the differences are really minor. Arceus Ground and Arceus Bug have as much in common as Muk and Alolan Muk. Why would you count them as the same Pokemon?
No, Muk forms are definitely more different. Arceus is only as different as Kecleon utilizing color change. It's just a different tier for a held item, which is stupid.
Read.
Arceus can never change its type like Kecleon can. The forms are as different as Alolan forms are from their Kanto counterparts. That's why they're tiered differently.
Not being able to change is irrelevant, I said that's how deep the difference runs, that is not at all. Do you tier mons with different terra types differently? Obviously not, that would he stupid.
Yeah and like I said, just because you've always done something wrong isn't an excuse to not do it right. Pokemon with different movesets are differently viable, and that can't change mid battle, does each set have a tier? No, thats obviously fricking stupid.
What is wrong by tiering different forms independently?
It's just nonsensical when the only difference is a held item. No different stats, movesets, ability, nothing. Just a held item and a type. It seems pointless and stupid to split it up, and artificially makes the mon look like it has less usage than it does.
the typing makes a massive difference
The game treats them all as independent forms, which are practically new Pokemon entirely that just share a dex number with something else.
Should every Deoxys form be treated identically? Or Gorgeist form?
Or Indeedee form, or Meowstic form, or Zacian form, or Zamazenta form, or etc. After all, the only difference between the Zamazentas is their item.
>flat out lying
It shows that even you think you're wrong when you do that, yknow. It shows that you know the truth isn't enough.
I didn't say it didn't. But so do held items, so does a moveset. You don't tier a pokemom differently for using a different set, it makes no sense to do it for holding a different item. How many times do I have to say this?
Arecus' forms are married to their respective held item. You can't remove the held item in battle, nor can the form change. For all intents and purposes, they're new Pokemon.
How does this offer a response to anything I said? Are you just conceding those points to jump to the next excuse?
>How does this offer a response to anything I said?
Because plates on Arceus aren't the same as changing the held item or moveset on any random Pokemon. They give it a new form, so that new form is tiered accordingly. The only difference in this example compared to others is that every Arceus form is in Ubers to begin with. There are plenty of examples in lower tiers where such a distinction matters. You being moronic and not being able to understand this concept after having it spelled out to you a half dozen times means nothing.
>inb4 muh ad homosex, you lose!
But why isn't it the same? On a technicality, for no reason other than consistency? That's just the "we've always done it wrong so we have to keep doing it wrong" argument again. Give an actual real reason for splitting it up.
>There are plenty of examples in lower tiers where such a distinction matters
Ok, so we're back to "the impact of the difference is what's meaningful" when you deny that a different moveset can have insane swing on a pokemons viability. You thing Dragopult would he good if peoplenjist put scratch and growl on it? Should we tier scratch sets separately than darts sets? Obviously not, so the plates being differently viable shouldn't matter.
Different forms are treated effectively as new Pokemon, why does there need to be any more reason? Steel Arceus isn't the same as Fairy Arceus.
>plates being differently viable
That's not it, it's the different Arceus forms as a whole. Arceus can't be separated from a plate when it's holding one, so it's a new Pokemon. There was also gen 7 when Arceus could change form with either a plate for Z-Crystal.
>first paragraph
"It's always been wrong so it has to stay wrong"
>second paragraph
So what about an itemless mon, for example for Acrobatics? Does that deserve to be tiered differently than a more typical set with an item? You can't knock off a no item, so it should be It's own tier, yeah? Because it's differently viable and has different strengths/weaknesses from another strat?
>It's always been wrong
So every Rotom, Silvally, Gorgeist, Meowstic, Indeedee, and regional form should be tiered the same as their other forms?
Reductio ad absurdum.
Explain how.
Different forms act as different Pokemon.
Yeah, except when it's Arceus and it changes basically nothing that Kecleon wouldn't change. Arceus doesn't get different stats, a different ability, different movepool, nothing that a true alternate form like a regional would get to deserve being tiered differently. It's just a held item that changes the type.
Kecleon changes its type in battle, Arceus changes its form in a menu.
In battle Arceus’s form does not change and starts out as said form.
It’s similar to the reason why Giratina Origin is classified separately from Giratina Altered.
Yeah so since you're repeating that, should I just repeat the same reply I've been giving to it? Can you literally ever offer an actual argument, or read mine and actually reply to them? This whole time all anyone has offered me is "it is what it is" or "but it's a form, technically!" Which I've already replied to both.
In Kecleon’s case, it is literally just the effect of an Ability, it is not treated internally as an alternate form, and the Pokémon starts off as its default Type. It’s like Protean Greninja vs. Torrent Greninja.
Arceus’s forms are all treated as separate internally, stays as that Type for the duration of the match, cannot lose said Type because Plates are impervious to item removal or manipulation, and Judgment’s Type changes.
It is treated like the Origin Formes and later on Silvally’s RKS System,
>This whole time all anyone has offered me is "it is what it is" or "but it's a form, technically!"
>it is not treated internally as an alternate form
>but it's a form, technically!
>hurrr it form tho!!!
I ask again, can anyone who isn't an NPC and has an original thought for fricking one actually reply to me? It's literally just the same two dumbass circular thoughts on repeat from you people. You literally can't say anything else.
>>it is not treated internally as an alternate form
Yes it is.
Did you think I said it wasnt? Lord please, anyone who's literate, I mean any response at all besides the same two. I'm begging here, anyone who isn't an NPC like this dumbcuck who LITERALLY JUST REPEATED THAT ITS A FORM IN RESPONSE TO ME ASKING FOR ANY ARGUMENT BESIDES JUST REPEATING THAT ITS A FORM. Holy frick how hard can this be...
>Different forms are treated effectively as new Pokemon,
wrong, toxcricity forms are merged
>toxcricity forms are merged
No they're not.
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/pokemon/toxtricity/
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/pokemon/toxtricity-low-key/
we're talking about usage stats aren't we?
toxcricity in usage stats is not split into high key and low key
Wrong. Stay mad incel scrub.
>You don't tier a pokemom differently for using a different set, it makes no sense to do it for holding a different item.
What are Mega Stones?
What is Soul Dew?
What about lagging tail? What is burn orb? What are scarf?
What about them
Mega Stones are a Pokémon-specific form change, like the Arceus plates. You cannot have a Mega Kangaskhan that isn't holding a Kangaskhanite. You cannot have a Arceus-Bug that isn't holding an Insect Plate.
Soul Dew is precedent for banning a Pokémon based off an (exclusive) held item that doesn't change its form.
None of the examples you cited are Pokémon-specific. You have nothing left to back up your position. I accept your concession.
It's not a concession, it's consistency with what I've said all along. You're just too illiterate to notice. Let me highlight it for you
>Arceus doesn't get different stats, a different ability, different movepool, nothing that a true alternate form like a regional would get to deserve being tiered differently
Now, let's think about this, what do megas have, that I say arceus forms don't have, that would make them fundamentally different and not at all what I'm talking about? Hmmm... That's a thinker...
Do you play ubers?
Do you have a counterpoint?
I just entered the thread, I just want to know if you actually play ubers.
So your answer is no, then.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, I literally just want to know whether you actually play the tier you're commentating on.
well he's complaining about smogon on /vp/ so the answer is only about as predictable as a sunrise
I'm not commenting on a tier, I'm commenting on the graph organization and presentation. But anyways, I'm not in the habit of answering questions where the answer changes nothing. The only reason you're asking is because you've decided that I haven't, and if I say yes you won't believe me anyways. Questions like that, I just ignore. So, no counterargument, go frick yourself.
>Questions like that, I just ignore.
>you can tell i ignore questions like this because i've responded to every last one of his posts
... Are you SURE you're literate?
>claims to ignore questions like
>responds to question anyway
are you?
Yes. See how I replied, but not to answer the question? That means I ignored the QUESTION, but not the PERSON. I didn't say I ignored the person. So I ask again, are you sure you're literate?
You're so mad
Absolutely seething
Were so BTFO that as a final cope you're shitposting in circles and avoiding the original conversation out of desperation
I was literally insisting on an on-topic argument while ignoring questions that were off topic. In the two posts you just highlighted last post, it's someone talking off topic, and me asking to get back to it. You are actually fully illiterate, there's no other excuse.
>They should change X
>Do you actually play X?
>That's not relevant to my suggestion.
Yeah again, I'm not arguing to change the tier. The complaint is with the graphic. Like I already said, if you were literate.
You can't change how usage statistics works in the way you're suggesting without treating all arceus forms as one pokemon, which smogon does not do.
... Yes. That is the issue.
You are arguing to change, not just the tier, but how smogon fundamentally works. That's not just about 'the graphics.'
>doesn't count doesn't count doesn't count lalalalalalalala
poking morons like (You) is fun
>I can't come up with any real argument, so I'll act moronic on purpose and then when you can't argue against my moronation it means I win
Cope.
keep wasting your time replying to me
You have to know that this just proves me right, right? That your goal is to act stupid and waste time, that that acusation is accurate and is exactly what you're doing? That's not a W for you, that just makes you look mad that you have no counterargument, and are just running away to shitpost.
>yes i know you're just baiting me! that's why i just keep replying to it anyway!
lol
>you look mad that you have no counterargument
what are you even arguing about again
i'd go look myself but a. i don't feel like it and b. we both know you can't help but reply to this
Yeah it's called mocking you. You're smearing shit on your face until I leave, and I'm staying so you smear more shit on your face. Congratulations, you got me.
If thats it's actually usage, then yes.
you know the whole "i'm better than you" thing only works if you don't stoop to my level right
you're sitting here replying to me because you're obsessed
i'm sitting here replying to you because i have nothing better to do
we are not the same
Yeah, I didn't. I'm not pretending to be moronic because I got triggered that i was proven wrong, like you are. That would be stooping.
>you're just baiting and i am fully aware of that but i'm gonna keep replying anyway so i win
i mean if you really wanna sit here and jerk me off all night i'm not gonna tell you to stop but i would think a guy as smart as you want people to think you are would have stopped wasting his time on this by now
Hey man, if telling everyone you're wrong and mad about it gets you off, more power to you.
I'm not. Arguing to change the tier would be advocating for a ban or a move to another tier, which I never said. It's just stupid to artificially split the usage stats to lie about how much Arceus is used.
>you're wrong and mad about it
mad about what? i'm only here to waste your time
the fact that you keep replying to me means i'm getting exactly what i want
>Arguing to change the tier would be advocating for a ban or a move to another tier
You are arguing for something that would have massive implications should the topic ever pop up. Right now as it is, if players wanted a specific arceus form to get banned because it was too broken, it would be possible to just ban a specific form while the others remain. If arceus is treated as one pokemon, then you would have to ban either every form or none of them. In the eyes of competitive, the different arceus forms may as well be different pokemon and as such their viabilties and usage are judged differently. There is no reason to treat usage and usage only differently and introduce such an inconsistency. You do not play smogon, stop talking about it like you know better because if you actually played you would know how that what you're suggesting has way more implications to it than what you seem to think. Do you think both Urshifu forms should be treated the same as well?
They've done specific bans before if they needed to, there's nothing stopping them. But even so, this doesn't make sense to argue. If a hypothetical pokemon is only broken with Huge Power and not ots other ability, would you say "we have to tier the two abilities separately, so we can target ban only Huge Power sets!" no, that's stupid.
Because doing something like that would be a complex ban which smogon does everything they can to avoid. Treating the different forms are if they were different pokemon means that banning a specific form would be a simple ban and not a complex ban. You wouldn't argue to treat both Urshifu forms are one pokemon, why do that with Arceus?
You should specify that a complex ban is anything that contains the word "but."
>ban Speed Boost on Blaziken
>ban Last Respects on Houndstone
Behold, a simple ban!
>Blaziken is legal, but not with Speed Boost.
>Houndstone is legal, but not with Last Respects.
Anything more than 1 variable is too many.
Funnily enough if only 1 mon has the ability, you can ban that ability no problem.
>Supreme Overlord is banned
No ifs, ands, or buts
Moves or abilities only get banned if they break an existing clause or if more than one Pokemon gets it. Otherwise it's just the Pokemon.
>its this way because its always been done this way
Youre just like the idiots that gay wad sperging about.
It depends, actually. Signature moves/abilities don't get banned if nothing else has them. That's why Houndstone ate a ban before HOME, and that's why Cinderace ate a ban instead of Libero. Abilities usually only get banned if it's demonstrable that they break the majority of Pokemon that they're on, see: Arena Trap, Shadow Tag. The only signature abilities that get banned are the ones tied to alt forms like Power Construct.
Yep, everything up to and including lying about usage stats, apparently. I don't care if they don't want to do it, they're perfectly capable of it, and it's a hypothetical anyways. You wouldn't even need a complex ban, just ban the plate. Done.
>Huge Power doesn't change a Pokemon's type, which has a huge effect of viability
This argument again... If changing type matters BECAUSE it has an impact on the viability of the pokemon, then anything that has that huge impact should be tiered differently in your logic. Each moveset should have a different usage ranking because scratch sets are more viable than extreme speed sets. It's not consistent logic, it's just ad hoc justification for the way things already are.
Are you are...?
Yes, it is obviously first, which is why I know that the graphics which says its 4th is wrong. Is it really so much to ask to expect usage stats to reflect actual usage? You're arguing again for not releasing any usage stats because everyone can already intuit them anyways.
>Is it really so much to ask to expect usage stats to reflect actual usage
You have the "actual" usage and more specific. It's ridiculous that you're arguing for less info on a chart that's supposed to be relatively lots in little space.
>If changing type matters BECAUSE it has an impact on the viability of the pokemon, then anything that has that huge impact should be tiered differently in your logic.
That is not the case. If there existed a Pokemon that had 2 forms that were entirely identical except one had Prankster and one had Infiltrator, they would also be ranked separately.
Oh wait, that already happened.
And I'm not arguing for them to be combined, am I?
>just ban the plate
Are you not even aware that other pokemon can use the plates as well? Not to mention that Arceus-normal, which currently has the most usage of all the Arceus forms, doesn't use a plate at all.
Who uses the plates besides Arceus? Or are you already aware that it's no one and are just grasping at straws.
Is dark arceus the issue or were we talking about ground.
Does it matter? You asked if other Pokemon used plates.
Zero difference to using Black Glasses for everyone but Arceus
>moving the goalposts
No? Banning plates is inconsequential because every type has an item that is exactly the same for non-Arceus Pokémon.
Fairy doesn't.
And plates have higher Fling damage.
What's wrong with that system? You can't isolate something like Supreme Overlord because there is nothing else which uses it.
You can isolate it precisely because nothing else has it. No other mon can have that ability, so if whatever has it is a problematic mon, it is almost certain that the ability is why.
Pokemon don't get broken down into their individual parts, because that completely undermines the entire tiering system.
Now do it for fairy.
>Because doing something like that would be a complex ban which smogon does everything they can to avoid.
Is that why, instead of banning all sleep moves, they're still clinging onto the sleep clause mod which hasn't been usable in real games for years?
Huge Power doesn't change a Pokemon's type, which has a huge effect of viability. It's why the ScRotom forms are ranked differently. They have 1 move and 1 type that's different from the other forms, but we don't count Heat, Mow, or etc as the same Pokemon. Arceus forms are just as different.
>If thats it's actually usage, then yes
But the people who actually play don't seem to think so, so what is more useful?
Because it artificially makes Arceus seem like it has more lower usage. If the actual stats showed the reality, which is that arceus has +2x the usage of the second place spot, you're telling me that wouldn't change your perspective?
>Because it artificially makes Arceus seem like it has more lower usage.
Not really because it still shows its other forms. Anyone with a brain would know what that means.
>If the actual stats showed the reality, which is that arceus has +2x the usage of the second place spot, you're telling me that wouldn't change your perspective?
No, because I, and anyone who plays ubers, already know that it's by far the most popular. Most people would rather see the different forms.
Your argument here is that the graphics are pointless because everyone already intuits the information anyways. So what, they should be abandoned altogether? Or should we have them, with accurate information? Or, secret third option, we should just make up whatever bullshit we want for graphics and throw them up just because? Because that's what we have no, and it seems the worst of 3 options.
Mad that I bullied you and called you illiterate too many times? I don't know what triggers spergs, but you definitely snapped, and scoured welcome to keep smearing shit on your face for it for as long as you want.
>Mad that I bullied you and called you illiterate too many times?
no, i just like poking morons
... By intentionally saying moronic thing? Which is what you said you're doing yourself. So if someone disagrees with moronic things, that makes them a moron... Right... Keep smearing the shit on your face, bud.
>By intentionally saying moronic thing?
yes
because as much as you like to pretend it's beneath you, you keep wasting your time replying to my stupid posts
>So if someone disagrees with moronic things, that makes them a moron...
i'm starting to think you might not know what bait actually is
>Keep smearing the shit on your face, bud.
you've spent more time replying to me than you have arguing about what you started posting here for in the first place
Your argument is that they should have less info because people who don't know better will get confused. I don't care about them and they don't care about the data so why should it be made worse? What practical purpose does combining every form into one data point serve?
Less correct info is better than more false info.
I'm still having a discussion, you're not taking my time. You're the only one putting your sole focus on this, but ok. Cope.
It's not false info.
It literally is. Arceus is not the 4th most used pokemon, it's the 1st. Saying it's the 4th is false info.
Arceus + arceus ground + all the other forms is obviously first, and like I already said, anyone that actually plays the tier knows this. It's only false info to people who don't play, and why should whoever made the picture care about them?
You're more of a homosexual than he is by far at this point.
you fell for it too
>you're not taking my time
>he said, having spent more time writing his reply to acknowledge me than he would have otherwise
>You're the only one putting your sole focus on this
the fact that you're paying any attention to me at all means you're losing
>Not being able to change is irrelevant,
lol
Oh man if only you were literate enough to keep reading where I give a specific example for why I say that. Darn. I guess we can't all be geniuses who can read, sorry.
It doesn't matter as much for Arceus, but like another anon said earlier in the thread- something like Silvally's different forms each have different viability and fit into different tiers. They're all functionally different Pokemon because you can't change any of their forms mid-battle.
>arceus 85.19%
Wow so informative and helpful.
This. Silvally is fricking cancer in every low tier and "Arceus bug" has 0% use
Why are there parentheses around Grumpig?
It was banned and still had enough usage beforehand to make the list
TY Smogon knower
Based pige holding it down
Grumpig giving Floragato a ride to NU
JUST
>Sneasel stronger than Luxray
What the frick
It has setup options, setup opportunities afforded by Eviolite, and Poison/Fighting is a disgustingly good offensive combination. Especially in lower tiers where Gholdengo doesn't exist.
>rises
>almost exclusively defensive mons
>drops
>almost exclusively offensive mons
Typical.
>shocks
>indeedee
>gardevoir
>mini sneed
>lux 'no good stab' ray
>defensive mons
Even Dunsparce is arguably not that passive.
basculegion is literally capable of violating entire teams, how tf did he fell off to UU?
falling by usage is so fricking stupid.
>falling by usage is so fricking stupid.
Why? It's wholly objective. There are better teams to run than rain right now.
You can only use one Basculegion per team and usage is split between both forms, which are tiered separately
Idk why this makes you mad though, the pokemon doesn't become weaker or stronger based on how much people use it
LUXRAY
IS NO LONGER UNTIERED
What are people doing with Garde in UU
Is it the scarf set or calm mind?
Try explaining to me why Tera isn't a dumb skilless mechanic that benefits stupid players by surprise value over actual skill?
pic unrelated? tera isn't contributing to this interaction at all
>inb4 b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-but it's a water type it should resist!!!!!1!!!
oricorio has 70 base spdef and this braixen is at +2 and in blaze range, it was never going to survive that attack
garchompbros really are trying to delay the inevitable huh
Poketubers started all memeing about UU Garchomp so people started using him because meme value.
basically like how joey got ambipom to ou once
how long can they keep this up? aside from garchomp finding a better niche
Garchomp will probably settle in OU for the time being. DLC will probably knock it out unless it gets Scale Shot back, or maybe even Dragon Dance. Scale Shot would most likely shoot it to top 10 in OU just like last gen, while DDance might just make it Ubers worthy again.
Would DDance really make Chomp THAT thrratening?
The Tera mechanic will definitely break it.
Dragon + Ground + Fire/Ice (Tera) is practically perfect coverage. No Pokemon resists them and well over half of all Pokemon eat SE hits. Dragon Dance condenses its speed and attack boosts into one turn. Its defenses are incredibly high for a setup sweeper, and it doesn't necessarily even need to run sweeping sets since it can still run a hazard set, a scarf set, or ol' reliable TankChomp.
Basically, Garchomp with DDance is just physical Volcarona that resists Stealth Rocks and thus doesn't need cutie patootie booties.
so UU is just previous OU now
Rip my homie ceruledge you did good to hold out for so long
In the end all three Paldea starters fell from OU.
>In the end
The end's not here yet
There is absolutely no way Skeledirge is staying in UU
That's what people said about Quaquaval. Skeledirge is staying UU unless OU sees several bans.
Skeledirge has too much of a niche against OU threats with will-o + ghost typing + unaware
>Will-o-wisp
Thanks for boosting Ursaluna's attack for free
>Ghost typing
OU is rife with Ghost and Dark types. Not to mention its Fire typing making it eat shit to all the Ground and Water types.
>Unaware
Clodsire and Dondozo are better for this.
>OU is rife with Ghost and Dark types. Not to mention its Fire typing making it eat shit to all the Ground and Water types.
You do realize that Dirge is an excellent Tera abuser, right? Tera Fairy and/or Water make it nightmarish to deal with for certain teams
That's exactly why its usage dropped. Why waste your Tera on Skeledirge when there are far better abusers now? Garganacl is one thing, but Kingambit, Dragonite, Baxcalibur, Zamazenta, Lando, Heatran, and Ursaluna all exist. Pokemon that eat up your Tera slot aren't as popular because they're competing with absolute monsters that want that Tera more.
Why not? Most of the UU top 10 shits on it.
>Decidueye is still UU
I miss Gen 8 OU already. Tyranitar fell out of OU, and soon Garchomp and Landorus-T will join it.
I miss Melmetal.
Baxcalibur is a better Godzilla mon than troonytar, so good riddance.
carried by tera
lol
Tera Ice
Piracy of Pokemon games is morally sound and justified.
Until Game Freak makes a good game again, you are morally obligated not to buy their games. This is why Smogon and Pokemon Showdown are Chaotic Good. VGC, conversely, is Lawful Evil.
Stealing from corporations is always justified.
I really really really fricking hate Baxcallibur
>OU now revolves around the ghost-dark-fighting-fairy matchups
Grim
>Remove Pursuit
>Remove Knock Off from 90% of Pokemone
>Ghost Pokemon rise in usage
Game Freak is amazing at balancing.
Don't forget Last Respects, Rage Fist and creating a Ghost that's immune to all status moves.
>i'm not obsessed, you are!
Say if screens are that good why is Grim so low? Is he not as good as other screen setters I guess?
I see it all the time in UU now
It's probably going back up
Grimmsnarl is the best Pokemon at getting screens up, but it doesn't do much outside of that. Dragapult has speed control, Sandy Shocks can also set hazards and volt switch, Magearna was Magearna, and Regieleki - back in Gen 8 - combined the best parts of Dragapult and Sandy Shocks
I hope Grimmsnarl gets Knock Off some day.
Grimmsnarl does have more than screens. I wonder if it would be possible to make use of an alternate moveset. Maybe something like Thunder Wave + Parting Shot + Sucker Punch + Spirit Break. He's so frail without screens up, but technically as great Attack if you could get around it. It might be able to catch people off guard.
Its weaknesses are very common in the lower tiers and its role requires you to build a team to support it, seeing as Grimmsnarl wasn’t designed to be a support mon due to how its stats are allocated.
>different type + looks different = own ranking
It's that easy
It's even easier than that. If it's a unique form that you decide to use in the teambuilder, it gets its own ranking.
>delphox in RU
fricking how? The damn thing pretty much got every move it could want, It has no business in OU but RU just seems too low.
RU is fine for it. Look at the shit in UU right now - all of them were OU staples in the past or have the stats of Legendary Pokémon.
Good, but not great, stats. Useless ability. It's effectively a stat stick without anything to set it apart from other Fire or Psychic types. How is it going to compete with H-Typhlosion, Skeledirge, Azelf, or G-Articuno for a slot?
Meowscarada bros...
>Thought this was UU new viability ranking
>Until I noticed Glimmora
Fricking LOL, this generation is a joke
Game Freak did everything in their power to make Gen 8 and Gen 9 the worst possible generations to play. The games are worse than R/B/Y, an astonishing feat considering the age gap, and competitive has only gotten worse as moves and Pokemon got cut.
I don't get the joke, Glimmora's a passable OU mon.
>H-Lilligant is the most viable grass type
Based
Ting-Lu and Amoonguss are both higher
>Ting-Lu
>Grass
Tera doesn’t count
Oh no no
I actually just flat out missed Amoonguss when I checked the viability list, my bad.
I am more shocked at how bloated D-rank is and how some Pokémon are technically ranked there. I thought D was only for Pokémon that are in OU by placement and not actually viable. Why the hell are shit like Masquerain ranked?
Sticky Webs. Some people still insist on using it.
It's the best webs setter so technically is has a niche, even if it isn't a very good one
I thought niche Pokémon are C and C-. I guess the definition of what D means has changed over the years.
I don't know where you are getting D rank from, the forum post doesn't have a D rank
Slither Wing, Tyranitar, Toedscruel, Gastrodon, and Azelf are all D rank on the post home ou viability rankings
D-ranks in current gen OU are mons that have hyper niches that require basically a full team of support and may not even work anyways.
D-ranks in past-gen OUs is what you just described: bad but still OU by placement. this is why theres been some changes in tier updates near the end of generations so shitmons arent stuck in a tier they shouldnt be in for the rest of time (usage does not dictate tier placement anymore once the gen is no longer current)
Bros I made #1 on a ladder (not OU), I'm happy, even though it was a niche one.
Can some smoggie explain why every slowbro and slowking uses future sight over psychic? I don't get it. Whenever someone uses it I just go "Oh...I guess I'll just swap into my dark type or special wall in few turns" and it never seems to be worth the damage I deal to mon in return.
I believe it is because it deals more damage and it helps get around recovery by dumping on a lot more damage at once. Think of it as nega-Wish.
I guess I can understand it as opposed to running a calm mind set which is what I usually think of for Slowbro and Slowking since mons with Unaware are such a big deal in SV, but it's so predictable that it hardly ever seems worth it. You fire off a nuke that I have time to play around and are left with presumably slack off, chilly reception, and some other coverage that's either STAB or flamethrower. I can't say I've ever felt pressured by it but that's probably because I play hyper offense
>I just go "Oh...I guess I'll just swap into my dark type or special wall in few turns"
The step after Future Sight is pivoting into a strong Fighting type such as Iron Valiant, Great Tusk or Sneasler that makes the Future Sight too risky to absorb. If someone is using ChillySight Slowking without having a scary wallbreaker waiting in the wings he is mindlessly copypasting sets from the strategy pokedex.
The point of Future Sight is to switch into a strong Fairy or Fighting type (or both with Iron Valiant) to force progress. Your Dark/Psychic/Steel types that can eat the Future Sight won't withstand a Close Combat.
>Future Sight
>Teleport (or Chilly Reception) as they switch into something
>Send in a strong physical attacker
>Opponent better hope they can take a Close Combat/Wicked Blow/Earthquake/whatever + Future Sight as the same time or they lose a Pokemon
>Slowtwins regenerate most of the damage they took using Teleport and Future Sight
That's the point. You force them to switch
>Blissey NU
Stallbros?
Stall died in Gen 9
What it does to ghost-types?
I wonder how different gen 8 would have been if Dyna wasn't banned. Tera is essentially what's making all these crazy tier shifts possible.
What are your thoughts on Quick Claw?
Based on Galarian Slowbro
Cringe on everything else
I think it's something nobody really cared for previously, and doesn't really have any reason to stay in the game. The only use for it is fishing for priority, it's just rolling dice. Same as Brightpowder or King's Rock.
The difference between Brightpowder and King's Rock when compared to Quick Claw is that thy essentially make you waste your turn. Sure, Quick Claw can frick you over, but missing and being flinched are agonizing because it is a wasted turn.
This. They negate your turn but also:
Brightpower was banned due to the Garchomp Sand Veil+Bright poweder combo, reaching like 30-40% dodge
King's rock was banned because multihit attacks, you could reach 40-50% flinch chance.
Quick Claw in comparison is a meme.
Completely ignoring the most important stat in the game is arguably bigger than missing a turn. So many Pokemon have low speed as their sole downside.
You'd think theyd ban the much better item before Kings Rock if they were so intent on getting rid of luck sack items. It's all the more reason why at a certain point you have to tier ladder and tours differently.
Cloyster is such a bastard I love him. Got two entire classifications of items banned.
They did.
UU is very fun atm, lots of strong unique mons there this gen that would have been OU powerlevel 2 gens ago.
Kleavor, Lilligant, Basculegion, Meow etc
I have been using a hazard stack with AV Kleavor, Basculegion for spinblocking Tork/Quack and Talonflame+Meow
Also my boy Articuno is amazing for once in his life.
Calm Mind+Agility+Stored Power+Tera Blast. UU tier has a lot of priority but he manages 2~ kills
The funniest thing I've been doing against moltres and articuno since they always go for agility is to use mirror herb and copy the boost for my thundurus
*shits on your entire UU team*
>shitmon with horrible type get hard carried by tera
Its gonna be ZU in gen 10
What does scarfed recoiless flare blitz and head smash have to do with tera
It absolutely shreds most of the tier and has espeed for good measure
Hi Arcanine-Hisui
>unzips grass blast
Bye stallmon
>Basculegion used Surf!
>It's not very effective...
>(The opposing Alomomola lost 53% of its health!)
Very funny UU mons
Without Giga Donphan cucking him, Kleavor is great. I wonder if he will see use in VGC as the first user of stealth rock in that format.
Some Ting Lu's used Stealth Rock as well. I feel like Kleavor probably isn't impressive enough to see much use on VGC. I could be dead wrong, but it's hard to see him excelling due to hazards, when he seems okay at best in the Hazards metagame that is gen 9 OU
In a hyper offensive meta such as VGC, the 12.5% for getting OHKOs or 2HKOs matters, but it was not worth wasting a move on.
His problem in OU is being outclassed as a SR setter and walled by the most used mon. Samurott meanwhile outclassed the other spike setters that's why he got used.
For VGC purposes he has tailwind as well, Samurott lacks any VGC utility and spikes aren't as good when no one is running boots anyways.
>he has tailwind
oh so maybe he will be good. Feels random for him to have that move.
it's more of a holdover from Scyther than anything else
>paraflinch
Based and fair
>random status abilities
Should have played around it
>kings rock
REEEEEEEEEEEEE