I liked having a CRT available when I was young. Once I moved out and got a proper home entertainment setup I really had no desire to have a second, shittier setup just for certain games. I have comfy seating, excellent speakers, furniture, all the cables well organized and managed. I don't really feel like doing that again for just a portion of the content I consume, I'm still gonna play modern games and watch movies and Vietnamese cartoons on the big OLED. If that's cope I guess it is. I have a spare room I could make into a retro game space but that would honestly just make me never use the fricking thing. I'll probably just make it a gym or something.
That said """premium""" scalers are fricking moronic just line double to 480p and get a TV that can handle 480p properly
This. I feel a lot of the cope defending scalers is from bug people who live in pods and can't fit in a CRT. Sour grapes.
at the end of the day the average person can only process a certain number of frames per second and in some cases aren't really going to notice the difference unless either someone points it out to them or it becomes noticeable to the average person and the same applies to input lag. someone will notice a second delay but they aren't going to notice a fifth of a millisecond delay.
however the people that would notice this type of discrepancy are either unironically autistic or at the very least on the spectrum.
Not really. I'm not that Anon, but I can definitely notice the introduction of a slight lag when using my controller in Bluetooth mode, on my Steam Deck, but the only time it seriously impacts me in games is when exact timing is important. I don't like playing Demon's Tilt or Pinball FX3 on screens/systems with noticeable input lag, because it throws off the timing for shots, and I can't parry in DMC3/4 as effectively when there's lag, but at the same time I'm able to play a game like Symphony of the Night just fine with the bluetooth controller lag.
I also wanted to add to his point about processing a certain number of frames per second, as the PC I play modern games on can usually max things out to 144 fps, for my 144 hz monitor, and I'm not super well versed in graphics jargon, but in laymans terms it's like >"I can notice if the time between frames gets choppier, because it seems less smooth" >"If the frame time is steady, then I have a hard time noticing it dip down to anything greater than or equal to 90 fps"
Don't get me wrong, I can definitely still see the difference between 90 and 144 fps, but it's way less of a jump than even 60 is to 90, or 30 is to 60. And having played with wildly fluctuating frame times and frame rates on my previous GPU, a rock solid 45 is genuinely better than a wildly fluctuating in timing and number of frames 90-144 fps
>adds up
So it's not the scaler that's the problem?
I'm not going to disagree about that. my retrotink 5x has 5ms of lag with filters on (i think i can get it down to 3 without, but who gives a frick), but that 5s more than my HDTV which probably has a frame minimum worth of lag
But if you're gonna call something out, call it out right.
It depends. I've beaten Ninja Gaiden on a laggy modern console and on a real NES and noticed no difference at all. But then the Megaman X modern ports are incredibly laggy to the point of being unenjoyable compared to a real SNES.
Then there's modern Sonic ports where the jump noise plays at the peak of the jump instead of when the button is pressed; actually unplayable.
>But then the Megaman X modern ports are incredibly laggy to the point of being unenjoyable compared to a real SNES
That's because Mega Man X has two frames of input lag even on real hardware, so it feels extremely laggy when you add even more input lag
>That's because Mega Man X has two frames of input lag even on real hardware, so it feels extremely laggy when you add even more input lag
No that is not the reason.
The emulation in the legacy collection by Capcom is actually horrendous
If you emulate on SNES9x without any adjustments you get much faster response
People notice easily, kiddo. You're laggy and your shitty scaler is trash. Just because you shot your nerves huffing VCR head cleaner doesn't mean other people can't tell the difference.
There is lag in all parts of the chain you moron.
When everything is said and done, most games on LCD panels have 2-5 frames of lag. So really, more like 30-80ms of latency.
This isn't just display latency, but also just the natural latency of the system it self, the controller sending it's messages, the scaler, the display presenting the image, etc.
This is why you have a "gaming mode" on your TV, to help remove the latency in that step, and scalers to remove latency from that step. Sometimes removing just a few ms can be enough to push you under another frame of latency. Thats not even going down the rabbit hole that is frame pacing.
You are both fricking moronic. >Playing retro games through a consumer TV like morons huehuehue
Maybe if you're a fricking moron. Like (you)
My display has 4ms of lag at 2160p. Add RT4K lag and it's still under 1F. Absolutely nobody is going to notice, "kiddo"
Arrogant Dunning-Kruger wienersuckers like you truly should be pushed out of the nearest window. Suck a shit covered dick you dumb bastard.
There is lag in all parts of the chain you moron.
When everything is said and done, most games on LCD panels have 2-5 frames of lag. So really, more like 30-80ms of latency.
This isn't just display latency, but also just the natural latency of the system it self, the controller sending it's messages, the scaler, the display presenting the image, etc.
This is why you have a "gaming mode" on your TV, to help remove the latency in that step, and scalers to remove latency from that step. Sometimes removing just a few ms can be enough to push you under another frame of latency. Thats not even going down the rabbit hole that is frame pacing.
>it all adds up
No it doesn't. It's 5ms of lap per frame. Each new frame enters the world with 0ms of lag and the 5ms is added to that. Then it resets back to zero for the next frame and 5ms is again added to that. It never adds up.
CRTs don't come in 100" sizes and scalers add less input lag than whatever shit upscaler is built into most TVs. 5ms is a third of a frame.
Modern TVs don't even have any analog inputs nowadays, just maybe RF. So you need a way of inputting HDMI, and you may as well get a decent scaler cause native HDMI cables (that just have scalers in the cable) for consoles cost $50 a pop.... so if you have many consoles, a decent scaler is a good investment.
besides even shit like the OSSC is getting stupid expensive, I used to buy mine for like $100 or something, now they go for $180... so, a good investment.
It also gets worse when you are tired. Some games I just have to play when I'm rested for best results. It's one of the reasons I think it's kinda stupid how drunk driving is persecuted as hard as it is. Someone who goes behind the wheel when they haven't slept much is just as dangerous but will get a much lower penalty if they cause an accident just because they didn't drink.
I'm pretty sure this is the good one that I have. The description has some info about it being a scaler but I don't think it works that way in my use case. Either way, this one is outputting a nice clean signal from the component out. The lack a audio L/R is annoying. It need to break those put elsewhere but this thing does well as a scart through component transcoder.
There are other which include L/R plus VGA output but I haven't tested them out yet. Those could be good. But not the one from my prior post. That one sucks.
I don't have this one so I can't tell ya if its any good or not.
I'm pretty sure this is the good one that I have. The description has some info about it being a scaler but I don't think it works that way in my use case. Either way, this one is outputting a nice clean signal from the component out. The lack a audio L/R is annoying. It need to break those put elsewhere but this thing does well as a scart through component transcoder.
There are other which include L/R plus VGA output but I haven't tested them out yet. Those could be good. But not the one from my prior post. That one sucks.
Because I already have a nice media setup with a nice couch, surround sound system, and a 65" OLED. Not going to have a second, shittier setup for a <30" CRT. Only CRT I still use is my 21" computer monitor, which I use every day.
Because they often induce significantly LESS input lag then the scaling that is built in to your TV
There will always be lag in the chain, how much is the question
I'm kinda good at noticing input lag (not so good at audio lag), so I spot it pretty easily. However, to mind it is another thing. Within a certain threshold, I can comfortably endure input lag, granted that:
1. It's not more than a few frames.
2. It's consistent. Meaning it's always the same amount of lag, no variation whatsoever.
The problem used to be much worse back then. In fact, everything was. LCD didn't have a good start, whereas Plasma fared a bit better (but had its own set of issues). Nonetheless, I think there's still a considerable need for improvement, specially regarding motion clarity. Lag is fine nowadays, not perfect, but fine. There's a chance it will get much closer to what we had on CRTs.
None of you losers are good enough at games to notice 5ms difference anyway. You don't even play games, you just argue about autistic shit on the internet all day.
It isn't about input lag in itself, it's the level of perceptability. If the amount of input lag exceeds your eyes transmitting the information to your brain then to your hands to react then it's too much. Well-made scalers keep this within tolerances for average humans.
I'm thinking of getting a retrotink so I can use my consoles with the screen centered in my home theater setup. If the crt shaders on the 4K look as good as the HDR megatron shaders I don't really care if it adds a few ms of lag.
>IS THAT..... 5 MILLISECONDS OF INPUT LAG????? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH IM GOING INSANE SAVE ME Black personMAN
I'm a crtgay but this is moronic.
>5 MILLISECONDS OF INPUT LAG?
Yeah, that is unacceptable, because it all adds up and fricks up the timing of everything.
This. I feel a lot of the cope defending scalers is from bug people who live in pods and can't fit in a CRT. Sour grapes.
I liked having a CRT available when I was young. Once I moved out and got a proper home entertainment setup I really had no desire to have a second, shittier setup just for certain games. I have comfy seating, excellent speakers, furniture, all the cables well organized and managed. I don't really feel like doing that again for just a portion of the content I consume, I'm still gonna play modern games and watch movies and Vietnamese cartoons on the big OLED. If that's cope I guess it is. I have a spare room I could make into a retro game space but that would honestly just make me never use the fricking thing. I'll probably just make it a gym or something.
That said """premium""" scalers are fricking moronic just line double to 480p and get a TV that can handle 480p properly
at the end of the day the average person can only process a certain number of frames per second and in some cases aren't really going to notice the difference unless either someone points it out to them or it becomes noticeable to the average person and the same applies to input lag. someone will notice a second delay but they aren't going to notice a fifth of a millisecond delay.
however the people that would notice this type of discrepancy are either unironically autistic or at the very least on the spectrum.
Sounds like cope from a scaler seller.
Not really. I'm not that Anon, but I can definitely notice the introduction of a slight lag when using my controller in Bluetooth mode, on my Steam Deck, but the only time it seriously impacts me in games is when exact timing is important. I don't like playing Demon's Tilt or Pinball FX3 on screens/systems with noticeable input lag, because it throws off the timing for shots, and I can't parry in DMC3/4 as effectively when there's lag, but at the same time I'm able to play a game like Symphony of the Night just fine with the bluetooth controller lag.
I also wanted to add to his point about processing a certain number of frames per second, as the PC I play modern games on can usually max things out to 144 fps, for my 144 hz monitor, and I'm not super well versed in graphics jargon, but in laymans terms it's like
>"I can notice if the time between frames gets choppier, because it seems less smooth"
>"If the frame time is steady, then I have a hard time noticing it dip down to anything greater than or equal to 90 fps"
Don't get me wrong, I can definitely still see the difference between 90 and 144 fps, but it's way less of a jump than even 60 is to 90, or 30 is to 60. And having played with wildly fluctuating frame times and frame rates on my previous GPU, a rock solid 45 is genuinely better than a wildly fluctuating in timing and number of frames 90-144 fps
>adds up
So it's not the scaler that's the problem?
I'm not going to disagree about that. my retrotink 5x has 5ms of lag with filters on (i think i can get it down to 3 without, but who gives a frick), but that 5s more than my HDTV which probably has a frame minimum worth of lag
But if you're gonna call something out, call it out right.
Why would shaders add lag?
Is the 5x that underpowered?
On PC emulation shaders add 0 lag whatsoever
It depends. I've beaten Ninja Gaiden on a laggy modern console and on a real NES and noticed no difference at all. But then the Megaman X modern ports are incredibly laggy to the point of being unenjoyable compared to a real SNES.
Then there's modern Sonic ports where the jump noise plays at the peak of the jump instead of when the button is pressed; actually unplayable.
>But then the Megaman X modern ports are incredibly laggy to the point of being unenjoyable compared to a real SNES
That's because Mega Man X has two frames of input lag even on real hardware, so it feels extremely laggy when you add even more input lag
>That's because Mega Man X has two frames of input lag even on real hardware, so it feels extremely laggy when you add even more input lag
No that is not the reason.
The emulation in the legacy collection by Capcom is actually horrendous
If you emulate on SNES9x without any adjustments you get much faster response
And thats in game mode.
There are 16.67ms in one frame. 5ms is less than 1/3rd of a frame. I promise you nobody is gonna notice. Shut up.
People notice easily, kiddo. You're laggy and your shitty scaler is trash. Just because you shot your nerves huffing VCR head cleaner doesn't mean other people can't tell the difference.
You are both fricking moronic.
>Playing retro games through a consumer TV like morons huehuehue
Maybe if you're a fricking moron. Like (you)
My display has 4ms of lag at 2160p. Add RT4K lag and it's still under 1F. Absolutely nobody is going to notice, "kiddo"
Arrogant Dunning-Kruger wienersuckers like you truly should be pushed out of the nearest window. Suck a shit covered dick you dumb bastard.
>Dunning-Kruger
Go back to
you moronic Black person
There is lag in all parts of the chain you moron.
When everything is said and done, most games on LCD panels have 2-5 frames of lag. So really, more like 30-80ms of latency.
This isn't just display latency, but also just the natural latency of the system it self, the controller sending it's messages, the scaler, the display presenting the image, etc.
This is why you have a "gaming mode" on your TV, to help remove the latency in that step, and scalers to remove latency from that step. Sometimes removing just a few ms can be enough to push you under another frame of latency. Thats not even going down the rabbit hole that is frame pacing.
>it all adds up
No it doesn't. It's 5ms of lap per frame. Each new frame enters the world with 0ms of lag and the 5ms is added to that. Then it resets back to zero for the next frame and 5ms is again added to that. It never adds up.
homie some old games require fast reflexes, like the Contra games or Mike Tyson's Punch Out.
If you're playing some stupid puzzle game then yeah, input lag wouldn't matter
It's a legitimate concern when a lot of old games rely on single frames for information, light guns being the obvious problem up front.
I'm learning about the topic. Is there another case were input lag is critical? So far, I've only learned about light guns.
CRTs don't come in 100" sizes and scalers add less input lag than whatever shit upscaler is built into most TVs. 5ms is a third of a frame.
Modern TVs don't even have any analog inputs nowadays, just maybe RF. So you need a way of inputting HDMI, and you may as well get a decent scaler cause native HDMI cables (that just have scalers in the cable) for consoles cost $50 a pop.... so if you have many consoles, a decent scaler is a good investment.
besides even shit like the OSSC is getting stupid expensive, I used to buy mine for like $100 or something, now they go for $180... so, a good investment.
RT4K has very little lag
People wanna play on their 65 inch TVs
Of course you can use an Emulator with a +240hz G-Sync monitor and that way you have way less lag than 60hz CRT
Your nervous system has input lag too. And it gets worse as you get older. Only mlg pro gaymers need to worry about this dumb shit.
It also gets worse when you are tired. Some games I just have to play when I'm rested for best results. It's one of the reasons I think it's kinda stupid how drunk driving is persecuted as hard as it is. Someone who goes behind the wheel when they haven't slept much is just as dangerous but will get a much lower penalty if they cause an accident just because they didn't drink.
I'm an RGB addict and use scart through component transcoders.. no lag.
I just ordered this one. It sucks avoid it!
I hooked my scart to it and it output a image full of interference. It was bad. It's not usable.
>AlaBuBu
Why are you so stupid mate?
I'm pretty sure this is the good one that I have. The description has some info about it being a scaler but I don't think it works that way in my use case. Either way, this one is outputting a nice clean signal from the component out. The lack a audio L/R is annoying. It need to break those put elsewhere but this thing does well as a scart through component transcoder.
There are other which include L/R plus VGA output but I haven't tested them out yet. Those could be good. But not the one from my prior post. That one sucks.
I don't have this one so I can't tell ya if its any good or not.
I own a tink4k and an 83in oled and I much prefer playing older games on my 20in PVM
And. Last one.
Open a black document and draw something else. Your faces are funny.
OK. I guess it's like a wojack but shittier.
Love it.
Based OC creator
These are fun to make. Ok one more.
Because I already have a nice media setup with a nice couch, surround sound system, and a 65" OLED. Not going to have a second, shittier setup for a <30" CRT. Only CRT I still use is my 21" computer monitor, which I use every day.
No one can tell 1/3 of a frame of input lag.
Because they often induce significantly LESS input lag then the scaling that is built in to your TV
There will always be lag in the chain, how much is the question
I made another
I'm kinda good at noticing input lag (not so good at audio lag), so I spot it pretty easily. However, to mind it is another thing. Within a certain threshold, I can comfortably endure input lag, granted that:
1. It's not more than a few frames.
2. It's consistent. Meaning it's always the same amount of lag, no variation whatsoever.
The problem used to be much worse back then. In fact, everything was. LCD didn't have a good start, whereas Plasma fared a bit better (but had its own set of issues). Nonetheless, I think there's still a considerable need for improvement, specially regarding motion clarity. Lag is fine nowadays, not perfect, but fine. There's a chance it will get much closer to what we had on CRTs.
None of you losers are good enough at games to notice 5ms difference anyway. You don't even play games, you just argue about autistic shit on the internet all day.
There's no reason for a scaler to lag more than 3-5 scanlines and less for simple pixel doublers.
thats why I bought a $600 mister. No more lag for me
It isn't about input lag in itself, it's the level of perceptability. If the amount of input lag exceeds your eyes transmitting the information to your brain then to your hands to react then it's too much. Well-made scalers keep this within tolerances for average humans.
I'm thinking of getting a retrotink so I can use my consoles with the screen centered in my home theater setup. If the crt shaders on the 4K look as good as the HDR megatron shaders I don't really care if it adds a few ms of lag.