That is, imo, the weakest part of BioShock. >yeah, you don't even have to kill the little girls because you'll get more plasmids anyway!
Hope that Levine will actually make a good morality system in judas, if there'll even be one to begin with.
Such a dumb argument. You have literally have no idea until your second playthrough at the earliest that you get more adam for being good, and even then the idea that “morality doesn’t pay off initially, but ultimately pays off with strong commitment” is a fine idea
Morality only pays of in fantasy stories, irl morality only really gets you fricked with nothing to show for it.
Look at the most successful people and tell me that they follow a strict morality.
There was a study done on this. Basically evil only pays off in infrequent increments. If you're evil all the time then everyone turns on you and you get nothing or worse. If you're good all the time then everything is balanced but it's also easy for evil people to steal from you. So you have to be just evil enough to gain more than you should have but good enough to where everyone doesn't turn on you.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Ok yeah that makes sense. If you are evil in stupid ways then obviously you're gonna be fricked.
It's more about accruing power and allies with people who share your interests and at that point you can pretty much do whatever you want.
Also it's more about appearing good rather than actually being good. Just look at all those 'charities' from bill gates and friends that are just vehicles to propagandize and invest in the stock market.
This is the major problem.
It's supposed to be you choosing to do good but go down a rocky path for it or go down the bad boy path for easy and quick power.
Instead it's the other way around essentially punishing you for doing what the game even tells you is the more logical and easier thing.
>”this is a major problem” >”…even though I have no idea this happens when I’m actually sitting down and playing the game and the only reason I even know the game treats adam distribution this way is because the internet told me”
Doesn't Dragons Dogma Origins has you having to pick between killing morrigan (I think that was her name) or IMPREGNATE her but then she runs away with your child in her belly?
Yeah but you can reunite with her at the end of the Witch Hunt DLC. If you're nice you then leave with her and the child as a family, if you're a c**t you stab her
>Is there a game with evil choices that are necessary to actually beat the game?
Dishonored, maybe? But in that case the morality system is moronic because the game gives you dozens of tools that help you kill people while constantly forcing the Batman-tier "killing le bad" rhetoric down your throat. I want to rescue my adoptive daughter and rid the imperial government of corruption, I couldn't give less of a shit about a bunch of thugs wearing uniforms.
Dishonored has one of the best moral stories in the industry, unironically, and only people that don't get it are brainlets. >I want to rescue my adoptive daughter and rid the imperial government of corruption
And you can do exactly that and keep Low Chaos >I couldn't give less of a shit about a bunch of thugs wearing uniforms
Then you're just abusing your power like the Regent before you and the Loyalists after you, making excuses when you have the upper hand then acting surprised when you influence the desolation and plague on the city
>guard looks at 1 (one) unconscious body for 0.2 seconds >high chaos, you are literally irredeemable >Then you're just abusing your power like the Regent before you and the Loyalists after you, making excuses when you have the upper hand then acting surprised when you influence the desolation and plague on the city
The High Regent killed others for his own gain, Corvo does it do restore order to the Empire.
>guard looks at 1 (one) unconscious body for 0.2 seconds, high chaos you are literally irredeemable
You can kill 140 guards in the entire game without reaching High Chaos >Corvo does it do restore order to the Empire
There's no "Empire" remaining when you're done butchering the streets, turning civilians into weepers and safe zones into plague ridden dens
4 months ago
Anonymous
Weird. I passed multiple levels without triggering any fights, but apparently some guards finding unconscious bodies made the result chaotic.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Other actions can raise Chaos, like poisoning the elixir with rat guts for Granny Rags. Also in the base game only killing "groups" of guards ie four or five raises Chaos, and Chaos raised by spotting unconscious enemies pales in comparison to the Chaos caused by actually taking lives. Likewise actions like saving Curnow, branding Campbell or saving the plague survivors in the Flooded District decrease Chaos
I don't like immersive sims that give you the option of non-lethal and then make non-lethal the option that gives best narrative outcomes and also most efficient and then make lethal have all of the funnest shit. I missed dishonored 1 and 2s combat which looks great because I played non-lethal.
Well, you still save the day in the end. It's just tougher, and more blood is shed. But as the Outsider himself puts it >"What will history tell us? That the daughter of a murdered empress ascended the throne up a mountain of corpses, carried by an assassin named Corvo?" >"No. They'll say that little Emily Kaldwin the First came to power in an age of terror and corruption, and that she did her best in a world that is not kind to little girls, or Empresses."
Ultimately, years and history down the line, the plague still ends and Dunwall is still saved. It's only in the short time that more mayhem ensued as you partook in the same system of violence that influenced someone like Daud >I missed dishonored 1 and 2s combat which looks great because I played non-lethal
If it makes you feel any better even people playing High Chaos miss these games' combat because they do the killing stealthily. Even when murdering, doing it in a calculated manner over sprinting in the middle of a room and shooting everything that moves still makes the player feel better
I legit don't even know how the Harvesting animation plays out in either game. I've done High Chaos in Dishonored more than I've harvested Little Sisters in BioShock
>I legit don't even know how the Harvesting animation plays out in either game
think of it like reaching deep into your pocket for your wallet and your wallet is REALLY stuck inside to the point that you have to rip your pocket open just to get to your wallet,
The only iteration of them I considered to be ugly were the ones in BaS (even the cured ones in the end cutscene looked weird). BioShock 1 also has the excuse of being released in 2007.
Absolutely. It’s such short but succinct and to the point ending that I just got overwhelmed with emotions I didn’t think I could possibly have about the topic. Master class.
I'd like Bioshlock 2 a lot better if I actually felt like a Big Daddy and not a thin sheet of paper up against a crazy broad who talks too much. Big Sister fights were cool though
The Alpha Series had lighter armour that wasn't grafted to the subjects' skins, so that was fine for me.
>muh morality shouldn’t pay off
Such a dumb argument. You have literally have no idea until your second playthrough at the earliest that you get more adam for being good, and even then the idea that “morality doesn’t pay off initially, but ultimately pays off with strong commitment” is a fine idea
Not to mention it also
Then why even have the option to harvest them? You could have morality pay off by giving the player special tonics and plasmids, but only like in every second level and at the cost of directly harvested ADAM.
it should boil down to how quickly you reach your maximum potential instead of being a critique on how not being a Black person only rewards you handsomely in video games
i will reiterate >it should boil down to how quickly you reach your maximum potential instead of being a critique on how not being a Black person only rewards you handsomely in video games
I didn't play Bioshock 2 until last year and was fricking amazed at how GOOD it is. Better than the OG definitely, and Infinite by miles. I had such a good time stomping around icedrilling everything, racing my drones to get kills.
Have you coincidentally been in a thread that went
">moggs Infinite by having better gameplay, story, endings, and DLC
Nothing personal, Ken"
Because someone said something similar to your post. If yes, good to see you again, fellow BioShock 2 enjoyer (I was the OP).
You ended up with less ADAM and cool gubbins if you fist the slug out of them, which is pretty moronic honestly
Bioshock fricking sucked it was railroaded as frick, yet people have the gall to call it an immersive sim to rival System Shock
homosexual hack devs stealing the -Shock suffix like it was a worthy successor
Frick you
Sure you've got good environmental storytelling, the game looked gorgeous if you had the hardware at the time to see it properly, and it sounded fricking phenomenal if you happened to be gaming with a surround sound set up back then, but otherwise it was nothing remarkable at all
People should get over this franchise, it's shit
maybe at one point in development it would have been an open ended immersive sim like prey. i feel like they had to substantially dumb it down into corridor shooter slop because of it releasing on the hexbox
BioShock 1 might've been dumbed-down compared to SS, but calling it "corridor shooter slop" is extremely harsh. The levels are still pretty open-ended and you have to use weapons/plasmids wisely to effectively kill enemies by utilizing the stuff in your environment.
This is literally the problem with every single western rpg ever. >be presented moral choice >evil action gets you some cash, which is entirely worthless because you are constantly swimming in that stuff >good action gets you an unique item/weapon that can't be obtained anywhere else and also needed for 100% cheevo
No one ever claimed that BioShock 1 lived up to System Shock, at least not on Ganker. And I wouldn't exactly call it "railroaded", it may have been more linear than SS, but it still had good level design. The reason they simplified it was mostly because they wanted it to appeal to regular FPS fans on console, and I don't mind as it introduced and is still introducing a good number of people to ImmSimms.
It WAS railroaded though
You HAD to take the electro bolt plasmid
You HAD to take the telekinesis plasmid
You HAD to kill this big daddy for adam
You HAD to take the incinerate plasmid
You HAD to research this gay to get this code
You HAD to go a specific way to enter this area, only one way, not other way
The fact that it had levels to explore does not make it any less railroaded than any other game, and there were plenty of other games out there like Resident Evil or Silent Hill that let you freely explore environments but were never considered -Shock clones or even "immersive sims"
Bioshock was and is a shit game and only first time console owning plebs of that era with no experience with anything else or tastes could possible think otherwise
And even if, what's the problem with people liking it? It's not an ImmSim, it's a shooter with RPG mechanics, and as that, it does a good job. The gunplay might be outdated, but the plasmids make up for it.
Also >only first time console owning plebs of that era with no experience with anything else or tastes could possible think otherwise
You could just say >people who like what I dislike are dumb because I say so
Why the frick would you? They act like not killing them is a hard-core mode, but it's extremely easy to beat the game without them even on the hardest difficulty. Not only that, their gifts are actually better than what you get from killing them.
ToT
they owe me sex for saving them
Did what?
harvest their 'adam' (that kills them)
In my innumerable replays of this game, I have NEVER hurt a Little Sister, I always save them. Their little smiles are payment enough.
yeah, same, i always save them
you literally get more adam if you save them though
That is, imo, the weakest part of BioShock.
>yeah, you don't even have to kill the little girls because you'll get more plasmids anyway!
Hope that Levine will actually make a good morality system in judas, if there'll even be one to begin with.
>muh morality shouldn’t pay off
Such a dumb argument. You have literally have no idea until your second playthrough at the earliest that you get more adam for being good, and even then the idea that “morality doesn’t pay off initially, but ultimately pays off with strong commitment” is a fine idea
Not to mention it also
Morality only pays of in fantasy stories, irl morality only really gets you fricked with nothing to show for it.
Look at the most successful people and tell me that they follow a strict morality.
There was a study done on this. Basically evil only pays off in infrequent increments. If you're evil all the time then everyone turns on you and you get nothing or worse. If you're good all the time then everything is balanced but it's also easy for evil people to steal from you. So you have to be just evil enough to gain more than you should have but good enough to where everyone doesn't turn on you.
Ok yeah that makes sense. If you are evil in stupid ways then obviously you're gonna be fricked.
It's more about accruing power and allies with people who share your interests and at that point you can pretty much do whatever you want.
Also it's more about appearing good rather than actually being good. Just look at all those 'charities' from bill gates and friends that are just vehicles to propagandize and invest in the stock market.
This is the major problem.
It's supposed to be you choosing to do good but go down a rocky path for it or go down the bad boy path for easy and quick power.
Instead it's the other way around essentially punishing you for doing what the game even tells you is the more logical and easier thing.
>”this is a major problem”
>”…even though I have no idea this happens when I’m actually sitting down and playing the game and the only reason I even know the game treats adam distribution this way is because the internet told me”
Same
The game didn't give enough of a reason to be evil. Is there a game with evil choices that are necessary to actually beat the game?
>Is there a game with evil choices that are necessary to actually beat the game?
unironically overlord
Doesn't Dragons Dogma Origins has you having to pick between killing morrigan (I think that was her name) or IMPREGNATE her but then she runs away with your child in her belly?
Frick, I meant Dragon Age origins
Yeah but you can reunite with her at the end of the Witch Hunt DLC. If you're nice you then leave with her and the child as a family, if you're a c**t you stab her
>Is there a game with evil choices that are necessary to actually beat the game?
Dishonored, maybe? But in that case the morality system is moronic because the game gives you dozens of tools that help you kill people while constantly forcing the Batman-tier "killing le bad" rhetoric down your throat. I want to rescue my adoptive daughter and rid the imperial government of corruption, I couldn't give less of a shit about a bunch of thugs wearing uniforms.
Thats literally a “good” implementation of morality in games though according to this thread.
Dishonored makes you feel really disadvantaged by being the good guy
Dishonored has one of the best moral stories in the industry, unironically, and only people that don't get it are brainlets.
>I want to rescue my adoptive daughter and rid the imperial government of corruption
And you can do exactly that and keep Low Chaos
>I couldn't give less of a shit about a bunch of thugs wearing uniforms
Then you're just abusing your power like the Regent before you and the Loyalists after you, making excuses when you have the upper hand then acting surprised when you influence the desolation and plague on the city
>guard looks at 1 (one) unconscious body for 0.2 seconds
>high chaos, you are literally irredeemable
>Then you're just abusing your power like the Regent before you and the Loyalists after you, making excuses when you have the upper hand then acting surprised when you influence the desolation and plague on the city
The High Regent killed others for his own gain, Corvo does it do restore order to the Empire.
>guard looks at 1 (one) unconscious body for 0.2 seconds, high chaos you are literally irredeemable
You can kill 140 guards in the entire game without reaching High Chaos
>Corvo does it do restore order to the Empire
There's no "Empire" remaining when you're done butchering the streets, turning civilians into weepers and safe zones into plague ridden dens
Weird. I passed multiple levels without triggering any fights, but apparently some guards finding unconscious bodies made the result chaotic.
Other actions can raise Chaos, like poisoning the elixir with rat guts for Granny Rags. Also in the base game only killing "groups" of guards ie four or five raises Chaos, and Chaos raised by spotting unconscious enemies pales in comparison to the Chaos caused by actually taking lives. Likewise actions like saving Curnow, branding Campbell or saving the plague survivors in the Flooded District decrease Chaos
I don't like immersive sims that give you the option of non-lethal and then make non-lethal the option that gives best narrative outcomes and also most efficient and then make lethal have all of the funnest shit. I missed dishonored 1 and 2s combat which looks great because I played non-lethal.
Well, you still save the day in the end. It's just tougher, and more blood is shed. But as the Outsider himself puts it
>"What will history tell us? That the daughter of a murdered empress ascended the throne up a mountain of corpses, carried by an assassin named Corvo?"
>"No. They'll say that little Emily Kaldwin the First came to power in an age of terror and corruption, and that she did her best in a world that is not kind to little girls, or Empresses."
Ultimately, years and history down the line, the plague still ends and Dunwall is still saved. It's only in the short time that more mayhem ensued as you partook in the same system of violence that influenced someone like Daud
>I missed dishonored 1 and 2s combat which looks great because I played non-lethal
If it makes you feel any better even people playing High Chaos miss these games' combat because they do the killing stealthily. Even when murdering, doing it in a calculated manner over sprinting in the middle of a room and shooting everything that moves still makes the player feel better
Harvested on my first run because I was being edgy, always saved them otherwise.
I legit don't even know how the Harvesting animation plays out in either game. I've done High Chaos in Dishonored more than I've harvested Little Sisters in BioShock
chaos corvo is fun
sucking slugs from little girls who actively try to escape your grasp not fun
same
to this day I don't know what the animation looks like
>I legit don't even know how the Harvesting animation plays out in either game
think of it like reaching deep into your pocket for your wallet and your wallet is REALLY stuck inside to the point that you have to rip your pocket open just to get to your wallet,
Well that's rude
>you get more adam and extra rewards if you save them instead of killing them
why would i kill them?
always save
>You've been sleeping forever daddy!
They didn’t even make them cute, who cares?
The only iteration of them I considered to be ugly were the ones in BaS (even the cured ones in the end cutscene looked weird). BioShock 1 also has the excuse of being released in 2007.
They're cute-ish in 2
They're cute in BS1 too, even if they're not pretty like in 2
>It's okay to kill kids if they're ugly
Anon... none of us would be here if we followed that logic
>..I…
lel
No
I'm daughtermaxxing
*hits 5 pipes*
I legit cried like a gay at this ending
Absolutely. It’s such short but succinct and to the point ending that I just got overwhelmed with emotions I didn’t think I could possibly have about the topic. Master class.
this but the good ending in 2
how dare that violin flute combo be so goddamn good
This was the ending that got me because my daughter looked so sad and I wanted so bad to comfort her but I can't
I FRICKING LOVE MY DAUGHTER
FRICK YOU SOFIA YOU c**t
>let me make one thing clear anon, Eleanor is MY daughter
Drown you c**t
Must say Sofia was an interesting villain
AAAAH NOOO
Is getting ripped apart by a weirdo who wants to get the slug in your stomach a worse fate than becoming a single mother?
>Evil choice has no benefits whatsoever
What's the point
The storytelling medium was still relatively young in the industry so you could go for the low hanging fruit of bad is bad.
I'd like Bioshlock 2 a lot better if I actually felt like a Big Daddy and not a thin sheet of paper up against a crazy broad who talks too much. Big Sister fights were cool though
The Alpha Series had lighter armour that wasn't grafted to the subjects' skins, so that was fine for me.
Then why even have the option to harvest them? You could have morality pay off by giving the player special tonics and plasmids, but only like in every second level and at the cost of directly harvested ADAM.
Drill build helps
Kids are evil Jack...
AND I LOVE MINORS
cure them of their sickness? of course.d
The 300 extra Adam you get from killing them really doesn't make that much of a difference.
>The 300 extra Adam you get from killing them
Doesn't exist because you get even more from gifts they give you after you rescue some of them.
Once to check if there is an achievement
>game has a "morality" system
>always get rewarded more for being the good guy because I DONT WANT TO BE LE HECKIN EVIL!!! t. qa testers
>game rewards you for being moral by withholding benefits until later in the game
WOW talk about objectively bad game design
it should boil down to how quickly you reach your maximum potential instead of being a critique on how not being a Black person only rewards you handsomely in video games
Every game with a morality reward system is made by absolute pussies
KOTOR showers you with loot for constantly rejecting selfishness
i will reiterate
>it should boil down to how quickly you reach your maximum potential instead of being a critique on how not being a Black person only rewards you handsomely in video games
I didn't play Bioshock 2 until last year and was fricking amazed at how GOOD it is. Better than the OG definitely, and Infinite by miles. I had such a good time stomping around icedrilling everything, racing my drones to get kills.
Have you coincidentally been in a thread that went
">moggs Infinite by having better gameplay, story, endings, and DLC
Nothing personal, Ken"
Because someone said something similar to your post. If yes, good to see you again, fellow BioShock 2 enjoyer (I was the OP).
I dunno but good on you schizo-kun. It has all those things better.
Who do you think was ballsy heh enough to get through Lamb's psichology bullshit enough times to bang her?
Always save dicky, no matter the game.
You ended up with less ADAM and cool gubbins if you fist the slug out of them, which is pretty moronic honestly
Bioshock fricking sucked it was railroaded as frick, yet people have the gall to call it an immersive sim to rival System Shock
homosexual hack devs stealing the -Shock suffix like it was a worthy successor
Frick you
Sure you've got good environmental storytelling, the game looked gorgeous if you had the hardware at the time to see it properly, and it sounded fricking phenomenal if you happened to be gaming with a surround sound set up back then, but otherwise it was nothing remarkable at all
People should get over this franchise, it's shit
maybe at one point in development it would have been an open ended immersive sim like prey. i feel like they had to substantially dumb it down into corridor shooter slop because of it releasing on the hexbox
BioShock 1 might've been dumbed-down compared to SS, but calling it "corridor shooter slop" is extremely harsh. The levels are still pretty open-ended and you have to use weapons/plasmids wisely to effectively kill enemies by utilizing the stuff in your environment.
This is literally the problem with every single western rpg ever.
>be presented moral choice
>evil action gets you some cash, which is entirely worthless because you are constantly swimming in that stuff
>good action gets you an unique item/weapon that can't be obtained anywhere else and also needed for 100% cheevo
>This is literally the problem with every single western rpg ever
Or AAA games with inflated budgets that can’t risk players feeling disadvantaged for any decision they make ever
No one ever claimed that BioShock 1 lived up to System Shock, at least not on Ganker. And I wouldn't exactly call it "railroaded", it may have been more linear than SS, but it still had good level design. The reason they simplified it was mostly because they wanted it to appeal to regular FPS fans on console, and I don't mind as it introduced and is still introducing a good number of people to ImmSimms.
It WAS railroaded though
You HAD to take the electro bolt plasmid
You HAD to take the telekinesis plasmid
You HAD to kill this big daddy for adam
You HAD to take the incinerate plasmid
You HAD to research this gay to get this code
You HAD to go a specific way to enter this area, only one way, not other way
The fact that it had levels to explore does not make it any less railroaded than any other game, and there were plenty of other games out there like Resident Evil or Silent Hill that let you freely explore environments but were never considered -Shock clones or even "immersive sims"
Bioshock was and is a shit game and only first time console owning plebs of that era with no experience with anything else or tastes could possible think otherwise
And even if, what's the problem with people liking it? It's not an ImmSim, it's a shooter with RPG mechanics, and as that, it does a good job. The gunplay might be outdated, but the plasmids make up for it.
Also
>only first time console owning plebs of that era with no experience with anything else or tastes could possible think otherwise
You could just say
>people who like what I dislike are dumb because I say so
I rescued all of them. They were too cute to kill.
there are tens and tens of cuties like eleanor hiding behind their heavy big sister armor
just imagine
Isn't Eleanor the only sane Big Sister?
yes but maybe a bunch of headpats will be enough to make a big sister stop trying to kill you
we must test it
How do you purchase things in the Gatherer's Garden. From what I've gleamed ADAM is a liquid substance. Do you pour ADAM into the machine?
Yes anon, you pour your freah hot load into the machine directly
Just squeeze a snail in the opening
Why the frick would you? They act like not killing them is a hard-core mode, but it's extremely easy to beat the game without them even on the hardest difficulty. Not only that, their gifts are actually better than what you get from killing them.
>ooooooh such a moral dilemma... do i kill the children or do i save them and get better rewards (the game lies to you)
h*lla fr*ggin epic