So, let me get this straight:
On this site, in order to vote, you need to achieve certain rankings and exhibit skill in the meta. Doesn't this incentivize a kind of an insular mentality? If the only people who can affect change in the meta are people who are already good at it, what motivation is there to change and adapt? Additionally, aren't voters incentivized to keep things the same to preserve their own skill?
t. Literal newbie
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maybe, but the other option (letting literally any random moron vote) is so much worse that it's not even really an option at all.
I'm not saying that, my point is that it's a system that doesn't motivate people to actually improve things but rather uphold a status quo that immediately benefits them
not really. if I cared I could pretty easily go and get reps to vote on shit, and not a single person on smogon recognizes my tag. if you care enough to get good and understand the meta you can vote, you don't have to be an eceleb or a pillar of their community
Again, how does this system prevent people prioritizing preserving a meta that allows them to succeed over actually making things fun and adapting to change? If you fail to address this another time I'm just going to assume you're refusing to answer becuase it makes you uncomfortable
If enough people that wanna change Smogon's voting habits get a high enough ELO to vote, then Smogon will change, simple as.
Okay, but if the people voting in the meta are voting in a way that preserves the given meta, how are people who dislike it supposed to be able to enter the system to change it?
I guess that's less austere than I first thought, I am kind of new to all of this, (only got back into the game recently), and I'm sort of coming at this topic tabula rosa
By being good enough at the game. You don't have to like the current state to be good at it.
>how are people who dislike it supposed to be able to enter the system to change it?
They aren't. They can go make smogon2, or whatever, and have their own rules. If it proves popular people will switch to it. That's basically what VGC did. Modern VGC started in 2009, years after Smogon, but over time more and more people have switched to playing it because they find it fun. If people don't want to play your meme format then it's because it's not fun.
You're digging too deep, friend. I don't even play comp pokemon anymore, I never posted on their gay website, and I have 0 reason to defend smoggies. Anyone can play and reach required elo. Even if you don't post on smogon, they have a big ol banner when you log into showdown saying "hey gays, we're thinking about banning this". Then, everyone who cares does it. Yes, some drones will listen to ecelebs like Joey and Blunder and just do what they say. Yes, some drones will look at finch defending stall and parrot his vote. Voting is like that everywhere. Now, if Ive been completely misreading you, and you're actually trying to say you think they're too ban happy now...I'm sorry to say, friend, but gaming has turned to this since we entered the era of active updates. Imagine if shit like Melee git active updates. People don't want to adapt anymore.
>You're digging too deep, friend.
I mean, you're probably not wrong, I just am curious how they both prevent their metagame from devolving into gibberish without creating an echo chamber
>you're actually trying to say you think they're too ban happy now
I don't really know, I'm looking at this from a pretty uninformed perspective. I don't know pokemon much but I can understand the potential issues with this kind of community system as I understand it, if that makes sense
>Again, how does this system prevent people prioritizing preserving a meta that allows them to succeed over actually making things fun and adapting to change?
Because Smoggies do not stand for adapting. The ban system exists for them to extricate elements of the actual game which they hate.
The only reasons suspect tests are called for is because Smoggies want to ban something that is preventing them from winning.
Nothing is stopping the council from using 600 bst mons though? This is why banning things make no sense. Like why limit OU to stall mons? What fun even is that?
It's not fun, they just use it to jerk off their egos
>Like why limit OU to stall mons? What fun even is that?
Because a Smogonhomosexual's ideal of Pokemon is where you can have an answer to every threat in front of you at all times, and thus never have to take any risks or incur needless stress. You can switch forever until eventually the opponent has been worn down to nothing. Breezy.
Stall is easy to play. Powerful offensive threats invalidate stall as a playstyle to unviability. Without stall, they're forced to legitimately outplay their opponents---can't have that.
Stall is the most skillful, high IQ playstyle out there
Hyperoffense is braindead grug shit
>hurr I boost then attack over and over
Yawn
>Stall is the most skillful, high IQ playstyle out there
You have a bright future in comedy
>Like why limit OU to stall mons? What fun even is that?
Because they want Gen2 meta in all gens.
>thing bad
>no i don't have any idea how it could be done better
l-lol?
this would maybe be true but most suspects do result in bans. If people weren't interested in changing status quo, this wouldn't be the case... nothing would be banned.
I'd be interested to see what percentage of bans in a given generation are new pokemon
nta but the “status quo” here doesn’t mean “the exact same mons legal” but rather “use the exact same playstyle with no innovation for years”
stall hasn't been relevant in a long time
It’s not a system.
>It’s not a system.
It’s not a system.
Even in a homosexual semantic sense it is, what are you on about? Why is this even something you'd argue about, system isn't a four letter word.
Are you high?
>anon is getting flashbacks to the gen v days of how to ban blaziken speed boost
>letting people vote in the first place
>letting literally any random moron vote
The only morons are people like you and them
why would you want brand new people who have barely played the game dictating what is "fair" and "balanced" without ever taking time to learn how to deal with certain things
because it smells
Just play custom game?
>here's a flaw in X
>don't do X
Yes, that's a solution for me as an individual, but offering an alternative doesn't invalidate a criticism
If you don’t have some rank or skill on the platform, offering an alternative is completely useless. In other words, the higher ups don’t care about input from some rando
Your criticism is bad and you're stupid for suggesting it
How so? I could say the same about what you just said with equal validity
Because you're trying to argue against meritocracy. If you want an opinion, get good. Nobody cares about the opinions of shitters
It's not a true meritocracy if a cabal of people can manipulate the concept of merit you dipshit
Shitter opinion. Anyone can get ranked highly enough to vote if you're opinion is worth hearing. There's not a limited number of spots for voters
>communism is great! we need to prevent the rise of capitalism
>t. soviet inner party member
Communism is literally the one thing that can save the world and stop wars and hunger forever.
You say this while communist countries have been the most hungry and most bellicose nations in the world over the past 100 years.
It's because of the embargoes, my minimum wage starbucks barista said so.
It's more like what would happen if you made everyone take a civics/history test before they could vote.
>Write down the entire 2nd amendment - word for word - from memory or you don't get to vote on gun legislation
but with Pokemon instead of rooty tooty pop and shooties.
There should be iq tests or some sort of vetting to be allowed to vote for anything really. It's how you avoid giving stupid people opinions and having to listen to them
I agree, actually. Or at least to an extent. Maybe make a standardized civics/history/general intelligence test, and the better you do on it the more your vote is weighted. Someone who aced the test's votes would count 20x as much as someone who completely flunked the test or never took it.
they would never do this because it's far far easier to either
>A. bribe poor people with hand outs
or
>B. govern over a mostly empty area and bribe farmers and old people with hand outs
add in some kneeling for israel and you have the entirety of the american political machine
Why the frick should morons who don’t know what they’re talking about have a say in gun legislation?
>B-but I don’t wanna memorize one part of the bill of rights!!
Tough fricking shit. Even that is too easy. You should at least have an understanding why gun rights are important.
>sub 1400 elo opinion
Disregarded
Meant to respond to this
Don't give smoggies any attention. They're shizophrenic troony homosexuals and their HRT has rotten their brains. They sit around playing homosexual candyland fanfic pokemon battles on the computers with their discord sisters they got groomed by. As if playing pokemon on a gameboy wasn't already gay enough lol. Fricking homos
This is what playing a meta without any bans does to a motherfricker. It rots your brain and makes you troon out. If only Gen 1 had ban votes he wouldn't have become a looney troon.
NOOOOOOOO THIS YOUTUBER LOOKS DIFFERENT FROM HOW PEOPLE USUALLY LOOK HELP ME JOE NOOOOO
Everything he's doing with his appearance screams attention seeker. Idgaf about the girly shit for that reason, but he's obviously doing it to provoke some response and I find that vapid
Why do you feel the need to make up some stuff just to get mad at some youtuber? Its weird.
mental illness
Yeah, he probably does have one
im talking about you little man.
Elaborate so that I can laugh at you
shut the frick up smoggy, this is why no one likes you sodomite homosexuals
yes and everyone likes incel losers on Ganker
>"DON'T GIVE SMOGGIE ANY ATTENTION"
>Pic is of some autistic who only plays formats which smogon has no say in
Stop sucking Black person slong.
I love how that c**t was dick riding so hard until the Volcarona ban.
Even the bootlickers are beginning to wake up to the horseshit council.
>fanfic
>the official way to play the game until GF realized singles balance is fricked beyond belief and they can't shill Ubers without it being extremely unbalance so they shift to doubles
I'd frick xir
The score you need to vote on a suspect test isn't particularly high. They're not asking you to be super good at it, just prove you've familiarized yourself with the meta.
You'd be surprised how many smogongays can't even bother to do that, then complain when the results weren't what they wanted.
Oh, that does change things, how "difficult" would you say in a general sense it is? Admittedly my thought was that it was a certain upper echelon only
>you can't criticize things
homie
NTA but it's pretty easily doable if your average elo is ~1600 or above. (for reference, 1500 is "basic competence" level, and you're not really "good" until 1800.)
>1800
whoops, meant 1700.
>how "difficult" would you say in a general sense it is?
It's more tedious than it is difficult. You have to play a minimum of 50 games (down to 30 if your winrate is high enough) and have a good "rating".
Smogon came up with its own mathematical formula to determine the probability of a player winning a random match. The required is 80, which might seem high, but it's based on the average from the mid ladder. You can easily reach it if you just keep at it.
It's a voting system that favors people who play a lot more than win a lot.
>Smogon came up with its own mathematical formula to determine the probability of a player winning a random match
ELO comes from chess anon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system
I'm talking about GXE. It's a vote requisite.
Oh my bad, sorry. ELO does sort of encompass the outcome of a match so I misunderstood
That's why suspect tests have a time limit. You can get reqs in a small amount of games if you play safe. Bulky offense is generally the best playstyle if you want to get reqs because hyper offense is prone to matchup fishing and you can run into 3 guys in a row with a counter to your team, switch your team up to get a counter for the counter, and then not face anyone with said counter for the rest of the evening.
Smogon is only the illusion of a democracy. Most people playing on Showdown don't even have a Smogon account or at the very least are not active on the forum. The people who are, also tend to participate in its tournaments, which Smogonites will tell you is the only thing that matters. Thus the people likely to achieve the ratings and vote form a privileged aristocracy of players, who are indoctrinated in Smogonism.
The system is designed for voter suppression of "casuals" and otherwise good players who don't actually care for Smogon as an entity. There is no need for usage of the forums when making a custom room on Showdown would suffice.
>If the only people who can affect change in the meta are people who are already good at it, what motivation is there to change and adapt?
You can, in fact, get reqs without being a smogon elite. I got reqs for Kingambit and I'm frickin ass at mons.
> Additionally, aren't voters incentivized to keep things the same to preserve their own skill?
Not always. If the thing that's being tested is a grab bag of usability, like Moody, or something that can let the enemy reverse sweep you without having good recourse, like Kingambit, there's incentive to ban things. And sure, there are people who only vote to ban things that they lose to. Hell, that's why Kyurem got the boot in Gen 8, thanks Finch, but there are still people who vote to ban shit that's broken that they exploited themselves.
>Caring about competitive
>At all
the way smogon does things is actually p cool in theory but also differs from tier to tier. voting is balanced easy if you are dedicated.
the problem is that the current OU council seems to be borderline moronic & biased asf about some of their decisions. They quickbanned things that were not meant to be banned which got thing banned on the suspect that shouldn't have been banned. They also picked the wrong suspects - which got Gliscor banned when it should have been Dhengo.
Overall smogon minus the trannies and corrupt council leaders is fine most of the cool people are banned or inactive
Short answer: bans happen so your premise is wrong
> If the only people who can affect change in the meta are people who are already good at it, what motivation is there to change and adapt?
Pokemon is a game where you don't rely on a single team member, therefore people are open minded about bans. It's not like banning a fighting game char that would frick up who plays it as main
>Additionally, aren't voters incentivized to keep things the same to preserve their own skill?
As above, pokemons can be substituted quite easily. Anyone who's got a good grasp on the meta should be able to assess that a mon is not fair. Even people who can get easy win with a min will eventually want to ban it after losing to it a few times
>bans happen so your premise is wrong
That contradicts precisely nothing that I said though
Yes it does. OP's premise is predicated on the idea of people NOT banning things to maintain a status quo. If bans are occuring- and they occur more than they don't- then this can not be true.
>OP's premise is predicated on the idea of people NOT banning things to maintain a status quo
It isn't though, he never even mentioned bans. He quite literally only criticized the voting mechanisms
You are too stupid to be manipulative, get a new hobby
Black person voting is only done to ban something. Just stfu if you are this oblivious to the matter
>let everybody vote
>a computer will take the highest elo your account has ever been and add it to a weighted average
>your vote will be worth a number in between 0 and 1 dependent on the highest elo of the voters
>whatever the computer determines to have the higher score (between ban and no ban) is the decision made
There, I fixed it
There should be a ban on how many things you can ban in OU.
bring back natdex ag
No one wanted to play it.
>Gen 9 creates broken combinations due to Terastallization, Revival Blessing, and so on
>Pokemon and moves removed from the game to allow the new stuff to not be as broken still exist
>This creates a terrible meta that no one likes playing
>Smogon create Nat Dex Ubers where all the broken shit is banned
>Everyone switches over to Nat Dex Ubers because they don't like dealing with Revive cats or Tera Electric Shedinja
>Population of Nat Dex AG dips to the point where it's not even worth having a ladder for anymore
>Nat Dex AG gets removed from ladder
It was an organic end to the tier.
People bringing up tera as a balance issue is so fricking moronic. The most they can argue is that it exacerbates existing specific issues with mons, but that varies literally mon to mon. I've also seen people argue tera blast is bad and therefore tera is broken, but that's literally an issue with the move itself. The anti-tera shitflinging is literally fueled by low IQ morons that are angry that gamefreak added a gimmick that has strategic value that they need to account for rather than some super saiyan finisher move bullshit that is mindless as hell.
I would frankly be thrilled if tera became a permanent part of the game.
I used literally way too many times in my post and I apologize for that but nothing else
Tera IS imbalanced. Yes, good Pokemon can abuse it more than bad Pokemon, that's the same with every gimmick that isn't Pokemon-locked like Megas. Being able to cheat your way out of a bad matchup and get a 3rd STAB type is bullshit. It causes sweepers to become dangerously OP, and the only thing holding them back are the 3 incredibly strong Pokemon gifted Unaware this generation.
It making existing problem Pokemon even more problematic isn't an argument for it.
Name a single shitmon that becomes consistently good with tera
That's not a metric for a mechanic being broken.
Then you should have no qualms answering the question
>Game has been out for over a year
>He still believes this bullshit
For one, the premise that only “top tier” Pokemon abuse it was proven false with Regieleki (which otherwise got nerfed) and by extention Shedinja.
Second is that being “top tier” doesn’t always mean you’re the best Tera choice for your team. Since Tera is so customizable, your best Tera is always situational and match up dependent. Sometimes you want to defensively Tera one of your walls, sometimes you want to offensively Tera to eliminate a threat. Sometimes its defensively teraing an offensive threat just to survive for a turn possibly. What ever the case is, its hardly going to be the same one 90% of your games.
Third is that defensive play was severally nerfed this gen all around and anything but HO will struggle anyways. Without defensive Tera it would actually be harder to deal with many of these set up sweepers defensively. Suddenly you can’t become a Fairy type with decent bulk to stop a Roaring Moon sweep, you have to load Dondozo or strong priority (which is nerfed because you can’t Tera Normal extreme speed). And honestly leads to next point.
Do you honestly think Pokemon like Roaring Moon and Chien-Pao would be perfectly fine without Tera? Aside from previous gen Pokemon like Regieleki and Volcarona, every Pokemon banned “because of Tera” has been over the fricking top broken. Set up sweepers with 139 Atk with a x1.3 boost to Atk, set up sweepers with x3 Def with Veil and Snow up, Pokemon with slightly worse stats than Zacian-H but better abilities and movepool? The most recent ban was a fricking weasel that is only outsped by fricking Scarf Regieleki and Swift Swim Barraskewda, while also having incredibly strong Atk and busted move in Dire Claw. People will blame Tera without even looking at the Pokemon and hate the mechanic because it “breakes Pokemon”, which isn’t true. Shit is simply busted.
>Third is that defensive play was severally nerfed this gen all around
this is never mentioned enough
GameFreak activately wanted to kill stall and stallgays
I’m not going to ban tera. Prove my point tera was fine. Then go back to tera being unbanned because of you so shut the frick up.
>Yes, good Pokemon can abuse it more than bad Pokemon
You can say this about literally every mechanic in the game.
well said
Wrong, natdex ag was very active
I was running no guard fissure machamp and it was amazing
If their bans are keeping a playerbase to keep playing. It makes sense for the bans. You’re a moron for fighting a system you don’t like.
>tfw I’m not a smogony but a battle facionado
One big giant orgy.
>skill
>KNOWLEDGE
Hyper offense.
Knowing when to click Flamethrower over Fire Blast. I’m very subtle about it.
The expectation value of fire blast's damage is 93.5, and flamethrower's is 90. So in that sense you want the latter, however fire blast has less PP, so in practice the variance you experience in regard to the actual damage will be quite high
Yes, but you almost never run out of PP unless you're fighting a stall team or specific Pokemon (Pressure Corviknight).
They should just go Orange Islands on that hoe.
I literally only use it to find the better coverage options for my in game pokemon.
Kingambit avoiding the ban is proof of this.
Top players are so used to build around that busted thing, banning it would render their top teams obsolete.
The majority of top tier players wanted it banned. It had a 56% ban vote. It needed 60% to get banned. A lot of the people who voted against it were the typical "Smogon bans too much", "I'm voting no ban so you're forced to ban Tera instead", and "just adapt lmao" crowd. I'd say maybe half of the people who voted DNB actually didn't think Kingambit was OP.
>Kingambit avoiding the ban is proof of this.
or Lando-T in past gens, even then they keep popping up when you play them at ELO ranks above 1800
Lando-T never was overpowered. It's a utility Pokemon with subpar utility in exchange for better defensive and offensive ability. Gluemons like Swampert in Gen 3 - 4 or Landorus-T in Gens 5 - 8 will always exist. That's what Great Tusk has turned into.
>Utility Pokemon can't be OP
Swampert is a hyperspecific check to a select few top threats, with relatively middling stats. It does not fit your example.
I told the heads of Pokemon. Stop writing so much on why you think something is good, homosexual. You want something banned because it’s being spammed on the ladder. That’s it.
Oh great, another inclusiongay
Oh great, another regulargay
Smogon votes and the general consensus of it being a good thing died when Gen 4 banned Garchomp btw. A literal mon with an 4x weakness to ice in a gen where Mamoswine/Weavile was introduced, which HP Ice being ran on every fricking thing ever.
Their requirements are pretty low so no.
People who decide what vote options are, on the other hand, are morons
>literally israeli fanfic meta rule-lawyered by confirmed child groomers
>caring about comphomosexualry at all
?
Unless the council just bans something because they're moronic and they lost to it, yes.
>Volcarona
>Sneasler
>If the only people who can affect change in the meta are people who are already good at it, what motivation is there to change and adapt?
What the frick are you talking about
Idk what you're smoking on this one, if someone is bad at adapting to certain types of metas, they wouldn't be able to hit reqs to vote.
The system literally exists to filter out the type of morons that you're describing.
You can answer surveys too.
I feel for you OP. Try to have a simple discussion and a bunch of illiterates come screeching.
I can't tell whether people are ignoring the crux of what I am saying on purpose or if they're just moronic
>in order to vote, you need to achieve certain rankings and exhibit skill in the meta
Are you just now learning that participation medals don't count in real life?
When will these moron bend the knee and introduce item clause?
Half of the metas/bans in gen 8 and 9 were because of stacking the same item
Chud iconography
We need a way to bet on Pokemon matches