So Vampires can only make Vampires that are crappier than themselves and the only way for a Vamp to up their power level is to drain another vamp dry, which is a big no no in vampire town and liable to get a Vampire SWAT Team sent after you if you try?
That means that Vamps are in the long term a self correcting problem. Kill the older ones (or wait for them to kill themselves in their blood sucking gang wars) and you'll end up with shittier and shittier vamps until you're left with guys which can barely walk and dissolve into red goop if you throw garlic bread at them.
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Arguable the higher generation vamps are a bigger issue, since you're approaching a situation where you'll have immortal vampires that can go out in daylight.
Aren't they extremely shitty tho.
Compared to better vampires, sure. Nearly indistinguishable from humanity, except for being long lived.
Compared to proper vampires? or to humans?
bruh, they can hit three diy disciplines during the day. couple this with the spy warfare of keeping a FRICK TON of thin bloods who can be equipped for the same thing while keeping them in the dark as to the upper gens and you have a lifelong problem that gets passed to the next generation.
the most difficult part of killing a coven of vamps isn't the assault, logistically. it's the hunt where they lay low for your entire lifetime and get away time and time again from your order that's difficult, until generations pass and you can't get a breast on them anymore.
couple this with the fact that time of them are kept on perpetual half-life specifically so bigger ones can come back and coin in on lost vitae and potence in case things get hairier than they anticipated.
gWoD is moronic and should not be taken into consideration in a thread started on the premise of oWoD
just as God intended cursed to fail
>just as God intended cursed to fail
And all the innocent people that suffer because of vampiric machinations? What about them? Are they just collateral?
That is part of the curse.
The Christian God doesn't give a shit about suffering in the world because it's just a temporal thing. You aren't even supposed to defend yourself or others ("offer the other cheek"). You just do your best and eventually you're saved for eternity.
If anything, seeding the world to with murderous monsters is just speeding up people's arrival to heaven, so it's a net positive.
That's a common misinterpretation of the saying and its meaning, seeing as to how people used to basically backhand slaves and criminals but normal slap people of equal or higher value. It was rebelling, forcing others that harmed you to treat you as a person and to dare to consider you an equal if they wished to harm you. Anyone who ever took offer the other cheek as a submissive thing is fricking moronic really.
Where do the ten commandments, or anything that Jesus said, go in the direction of harming anyone, even in self defense?
Thou shalt not kill is mistranslated as it truly is Thou shalt not murder. Christianity is defensive but its not pacifistic, and it does not defend being trampled for the sake of being trampled, it welcomes all and asks that you give others a chance but not that you let yourself be murdered. That was the sacrifice of your messiah, not yours to try and replicate in your arrogance. Also I never said it was to harm someone else, it was to rebel, you can be anti authority without throwing c4 bricks into police vans like half of the WoD fans wished they could do.
>you can be anti authority without throwing c4 bricks into police vans
CAMI SCUM
IIRC the "meek shall inherit the earth" part of the bible, in it's original greek version, more closely translates to "those who carry their swords but use them sparingly shall inherit the earth" or something along those lines
bro the meek shall inherit the earth is from 2112, not the bible. its the opening line.
He does explicitly care, but there is a bigger picture that needs tending to. Of course if we are talking WoD God instead of the Biblical one then who honestly knows.
God is more or less out of the picture in world of darkness. I think it's one of the hunter books or maybe demon, but the throne is empty and people aren't sure of God's just on break or has abandoned the universe
>but the throne is empty
Seems to be a consistent plot point across works.
it's a major plot poin in demon the fallen, nobody has seen god or loyalist angels and god might be hurt by the shit the demons did during the rebelion because he had to interact with the world directly which is something god doesn't like to do at all which why he made the angels in the first place
but god does shows up several times in wod however he needs someone (adam, saulot, micheal being used in the gehenna book) to channel his divine power through, the watchers who create imbued are revealed to be loyalist angels in the time of judgment (apparently a imbued is a reverse thrall) and micheal shows up in gehenna
the time of judgement book also has the final revelation that no everything in wod is going as god planned even the demon rebelion, the fall, the flood, the vamps, the mages, the shitshow that is the underworld, the impergium and all the other horrors of wod are just part of the plan because the real shit that matters is apperntly the "second world", but nobody in the first world of wod knows what that is about
>obody in the first world of wod knows what that is about
Presumably because when this one ends their souls are going to be destroyed.
Is this second world supposed to be nWoD?
no nwod is created in a ending of a mage time of judgment scenario where the players crash a ancient magic alien city into a new universe and cause magic to exist in it, the second world is wod's version of a unknowable heaven and has been around since before the fall
The Demon: The Fallen novels by Greg Stolze are quite funny in that regard. At one point, a demon sees a vampire and goes "Caine? What the frick are you do in New Jersey?" The vampire, a Gangrel hitman, is just as shocked.
>"Shit, Caine had kids? You mean he learned how to pass the buck? Share the wrath of the Almighty God?"
This is old testament god we're talking about here.
>Are they just collateral?
yes. in fact have you read the old testament? God, aka the LORD, is a massive fricking c**t. hell just look at the world he made and you can tell that God is clearly a malevolent deity.
Hell, just look at Noah's Flood. You're going to tell me that EVERY man, woman, and child was irredeemably evil to the point a hard reset was necessary?
wait till you hear that caine could end it all just by saying he is sorry or how that would lead his 1 humanity ass to still go to heaven after all he has done and all he has caused
god is biased as frick in favor of his grandson
Reminds me of The Strain where the Master got to ascend to Heaven despite the millennia of evil shit he'd pulled.
>that would lead his 1 humanity ass
Caine’s humanity is way higher than 1. Humanity 1 vampires are only barely more than animals; they have some ego and personality but everything they do and think about is just about food. Max Schreck in the movie Shadow of the Vampire is a good example of a Humanity 1 vampire.
Every depiction of Caine in VtM has shown him as more than capable of acting like a basically normal person. Curmudgeonly, maybe, but not animalistic. Caine’s Humanity realistically can’t be much lower than 4.
you are confusing humanity 0 with humanity 1 and no low humanity vampires are perfectly fine in acting like people and having plans outside of food augustus was humanity 2 during the giovanni chronicles before the diablery and 1 after it which we are also told is also the humanity where the vast majorities of elders end up as and channing the beast describes the decent to humanity 1 in great detail you it makes one mentally ill and unhinged, but how you are still a person after all vampires with humanity 1 still need to self aware enough to decide to remodel their life after concept like honor, relgion and study depending on certain paths of enlightments
caine's official joke stat block also has his humanity at 1 and we are told that he can't interact with humanity anymore because the world is too alien for him and he is too much of a monster in the gehenna book which i don't like to use as source that much, but it is the only book he shows up in
>you are confusing humanity 0 with humanity 1
No, I described it perfectly. Humanity 0 is “Must kill. Must eat. Must survive.” Pure Beast, and *no* ego or personality left. Can’t speak or hold a conversation, can’t think or plan above the level of an animal, can’t perceive anyone as anything other than food or threat.
>which we are also told is also the humanity where the vast majorities of elders end up
My copy of Vampire Revised, at least, defines Humanity 1 as basically having completed the slide into the Beast with only some tattered shreds of ego remaining, and degeneration to humanity 0 is virtually assured.
> Humanity 0 is “Must kill. Must eat. Must survive.” Pure Beast, and *no* ego or personality left.
but hummanity zero who aren't hungry can go after their old "hobbies" and people can be bought back from that with certain disciplines and rituals we even has humanity zero vampires in the books who are still following millenia old plans and do politics: louhi for example is humanity 0, not on a path, following lasombra's plan for endless night for millenia, has a revenant familly and allied with the anarch recently, it's just means that as soon as she is hungry NOTHING else matters in her mind
>My copy of Vampire Revised
yes i know all core books do, but as soon as you get out of the core rule book and see actual stated vampires this falls appart especially if you look at dark ages where not only are there teachers of the road of humanity and the vampire who regains humanity is not another person than the vampire who lost the same humanity it was even standard to bring your childe down to humanity 1 to bring them on a road and again they are still the game people as before
Well that sounds moronic. I vastly prefer how the core books handle it.
i don't think louhi is meant to be a normal wright, not even because of the wright having still plans things(that could be explained by lasombra dominating her) but she is using "something like thaumaturgy" and wrights aren't meant to be able to do that
I know you gays aren't out here suggesting there are sins beyond God's capability to forgive.
Anon the whole point of Christianity is nobody is beyond redemption and anyone can enter Heaven as long as they accept God into their heart. There isn't actually some arbitrary level of depravity that bars you from the pearly gates.
do people really not understand the purpose behind saying "im sorry"? do people really think that people just say it to get out of trouble and not as a sign of humility that you are willing to accept that you did wrong and are willing to accept whatever happens next, good or bad?
>Make universe
>Make shitty things happen to people
>Punish them if they get upset
Objectively they are a villain, dooming souls to a physical existence and using it to torture them.
The problem isn't even that, it's the concepts themselves. "God" didn't have to make anything in opposition. Up doesn't mean down had to exist.
>Up doesn't mean down had to exist.
Provide an example where things can be more something but not less something.
Otherwise you're basically going "noooo, if you don't name something it means it's not real!"
>Give an example how, as a being capable of creating existence, you can make more of something without having less of something.
Like a constantly expanding Universe?
he is a jealous god and there exists no god but him
Ho ho ho, Anon has just discovered "the problem of evil."
This is Old Testament God we're talking about, meaning he's perfectly fine with a ton of collateral damage so long as his point is made.
Yes.
Yes, god is an butthole but can grant powers now you're getting it.
The problem is you can't. Not realistically, you need to pull plot out of your ass.
No, before you start typing, no (You) can't. The 3rd generation, the clan starters, are all either "dead" or basically untouchable plot points you cannot realistically kill. A methuselah is basically not going to get killed by any Hunter ever, and even something like a fifth generation is strong as frick. The First Generation, Caine, ruined the universe by committing the first murder and basically ruptured reality being given ultimate plot bullshit contrivance. A strong enough vampire has 10 points in a discipline which makes it a Plot Point, 10 Fortitude lets you shrug off nuclear blasts and other stuff is equally insane.
There's also some obscure ass lore that even if you somehow wiped out an entire generation the lower ones just bump up anyways, you got guys like Tzimisce who even if killed just reappear from one of their descendants and take over because its his bloodline, you got gehenna and whatever, really you need to asspull even with Reality Diddlers like Mages to make it even happen.
This just makes me think the setting should have stopped when Chicago by night released.
Anon its a personal horror story setting where you died and are an animated by blood corpse who stays forever as their form, roleplaying surviving a cripplingly shit system as a form of rebellion, trying to survive adversity in a world of darkness while not losing your humanity. Do you think the vampiric society with actual blood magics would be in any way better than the non blood drinking society?
Werewolf The Apocalypse is catered to ecology kids who want to literally fight the system, Vampire is catered to the goth kids who want to be mopey and gothic in a shit world, Changeling is for the artsy quirky kids, Mage is for schizophrenic dreamers. We don't talk about the others because they're shit, but nice trips.
Orpheus was pretty good (needed better execution perhaps). Hunter had its fans.
Oh those are fine yeah, but I more so meant the *other* stuff. Ghost players aren't quite as unhinged as shit like Beast the Primordial or Demon the Fallen
KOTE is GOAT and Mummy is.. funny? Honey?
>no Hunter 20th Anniversary
>get H5 instead
I am still annoyed.
Try being a mummy fan.
I have no problem with that since I ST the game myself.
i tired, but there was not enough substance in owod mummy to keep me obsessed
In practice, it's Goth X-Men
>Werewolf The Apocalypse is catered to ecology kids who want to literally fight the system, Vampire is catered to the goth kids who want to be mopey and gothic in a shit world, Changeling is for the artsy quirky kids, Mage is for schizophrenic dreamers. We don't talk about the others because they're shit, but nice trips.
Which ones have the best lore?
VTM, MTA, CTL, and HTR imo. I'm not personally a fan of CTD, Beast, or Promethean and this they have the weakest lore. Deviant is the most open-ended. Mummy is probably the most restrictive. Werewolf is Werewolf and you either really like it or really don't, it's probably the skubbiest game line in both WoD and NWoD since some people simply don't like the concept of werewolves as a secondary pseudo native american culturally hominid species with magic powers rather than something you can become after being bitten
Mummy has hilarious stuff like a basic starting character doing shit like 'roll five dice, a single six makes the sun rise over Rhode Island at midnight' or 'three successes? The ritual worked, chose the state to obliterate with the asteroid strike'
How does it even make sense for starting characters to be capable of doing shit that antediluvians would be jealous of with just a lucky roll?
Not every game line played with the same power levels. A basic starting werewolf could rip most ancillae to shreds with ease, nevermind neonates. Vampires overall are at the bottom of the pack in terms of WoD power level. It’s just that:
1) there’s a whole Hell of a lot more of them;
2) they’re contagious; and
3) the key word is “overall”. Once you get to the methuselahs, the antediluvians, and Caine himself, you are now dealing with top-tier movers and shakers whose power is exceeded only by extremely powerful mages who exist only in a theoretical sense (and not even them in Caine’s case).
Here is a general overview of the power scales for context.
>you sick frick
w-what?
You don't ghoul kids, do you?
Of course not, what kind of sick monster do you think I am?
I embrace them.
Ghouled child would be more powerful that mortal child. That's ghouled toddler.
Why wouldn't I?
Because they can literally bend reality, anon. Honestly I disagree with the chart, because fledgling being equal to adult humans (it's probably stupid to sort humans according to age to begin with) feels jank as frick, but also because archmages should probably be even higher. That said, the distance between apprentice and adept should probably be tighter, while the distance between master and archmage much wider.
Archmages are plot-tier... *things*, and I think that Mortals, Imbued ("Hunter") and Awakened should probably not all be on the same scale. Nothing says that a recently-awakened apprentice mage isn't a complete moron, his abilities largely dwarfed by a human at peak condition and ability, and certainly nowhere near a vampiric ancillae or even a capable ghoul or imbued or fae king.
ghoul is what happens when a vamp makes a human its servant?
A ghoul is what happens when a human is fed vampiric vitae. It is highly addictive and blood-bonds the recipient (a "thrall", in this case a specific kind of thrall called a "ghoul") to the vampire the blood came from (the "regnant", in this case specifically called a "domitor").
Ghouls are for all intents and purposes highly servile humans that are better than humans in every possible way. Long-term ghouls may take on minor aspects of their domitor's specific bloodline. Also they age very slowly.
I think the real reason the masquerade is in place isn't to stop humans from killing off the vampire race. Its to stop the humans from realizing how fricking DELICIOUS vampire blood is so the hunters wont become the hunted.
Yes I know it makes humans subservient, but that wears off the longer they don't have it and they might try to find another master.
It's definitely part of it, because there's definitely hunters out there that actively hunt for vampires to drink the shit out of them.
If you kill a vampire, you can't be blood-bonded to it. So if you drain a vampire, kill it, and drink the vitae, it's a victimless crime.
I recall seeing in another thread something about vampires feeding on their babies and/or feeding their babies vitae. What the frick sort of scenario would result from that? Based on the ageing part, would adolescents not be able to hit puberty?
>cont.
In wanting to protect their child (whether out of habit or some vestigial bond or out of self-preservation) they could very well feed the child vitae to strengthen and preserve it, but this also creates a blood-bond, making the child literally addicted to the blood of the mother, while also subservient in a way that will not go away around puberty, and there will be no teenage rebellion or parental weaning - if the child even gets to that point, as ghouls age *extremely* slowly, if, indeed, at all (some sources imply that ghouls do not age at all, but I prefer the interpretation that their aging is merely slowed to a crawl).
If you're remotely normal, all of this should be fairly disturbing, and even vampires generally recognize that this is all pretty fricked up, and a "mother" walking around with their actual child through the centuries while in a demented co-dependent relationship that at the very least borders on overtly sexual, with one part becoming increasingly soulless and unfeeling and the other more devoted and obsessed even as they are driven to hate their domitor from pure addiction, etc. is le bad.
The Giovanni is a "funny" exception to this, as the entire clan/family is heavily into incestuous abuse, recruiting ghouls from within the own family, and some of those ghouls then later becoming embraced to join the clan elders. They're (literally) balls deep into this thing and depend on it as a cultish pyramid of abuse built over generations and centuries.
I thought it was referring to ghoul animals
why are mages so strong wtf
Once you start getting to the higher power levels of Mages they cannot exist in the physical world and instead have to exist as more conceptual beings.
They alter reality.
Apprentice mages are way overrated here, at that level they have 1 or 2 dots in their highest sphere. A neonate would tear one to shreds.
Yeah, exactly. An appretice mage could very well just be an overweight grocery store clerk that awakened a year ago and now he's a born-again Christian "templar" with the power to make long-distance phone calls at will (but only as long as no-one sees him do it without a phone).
Do the kuei jin not have 3rd generation counterparts?
Not really, closest thing is probably the Yama Kings, but they aren't kuei-jin, they're the rulers of the 1000 hells that kuei-jin escape from before they take their second breath. You can make deals with them to gain power if you make a bunch of really difficult occult and legal skills checks. Also I wouldn't take that power scaling too seriously, a lot of the stuff on it is totally moronic
>We don't talk about the others because they're shit, but nice trips.
b***h you better show some respect to Geist.
HEY. I LIKE DEMON.
Wraith: the Oblivion is an underrated classic.
The story is quite good.
hell in the week of nightmares, the technocracy had to use 2 magickally enhanced nukes to pull it off, and even then he was super weakened by fighting 3(?) bodhisattivas (the azn version of a clan founder) kuei jin.
clan progenitors are just essentially plot points or forces of nature. now while it might be "possible" for one of the other supernatural factions to take one down, the amount of resources and collateral damage would guarantee it will pull everyone else in.
The Kuejin were the equivelant of Methusulahs not Antis. And the Void Engineers were the main reason Ravnos died. It also wasn't just 2 magical nukes. Iirc They used a space station and a mirrors to orbital strike Ravnos with the sun.
>The Kuejin were the equivelant of Methusulahs not Antis.
Boddhis are much stronger than any Methuselah ever shown. They have to avoid interacting with anyone because even just their presence is deadly even to Kindred. If you reread the encounter from the point of view of the lizardman thing that accompanies them and watch the whole thing, its pretty clear the killing blow was the Void Engineers, yes, but it would not have landed had the Jade Lady or whatever had not just let herself die right at that moment so the shadow storm could lift.
Of course. Simply kill the strongest, most powerful leaders of this species, all of whom are either hidden away in places they never leave or surrounded by dozens to hundreds of subordinates and subverted humans. Then do that again, and again, working your way down the hierarchy until only the worst, most disposable foot soldiers remain.
Careful though! You can't ever miss one, because each one can create a theoretically infinite number of subordinates only slightly weaker than themselves. Also all of this needs to happen simultaneously or you will destabilize the delicate balance of power between the factions, and possibly promote unity in the face of an existential threat.
They've gone down before. Hell the Second Gen's already out of the picture.
Yeah but third gen, at least a couple of them, are nearly impossible to kill. The weakest one Ravnos needed a nuke dropped on it and had to be hit with a solar mirror. And it took a literal act of God to stop Tzimeze
> The weakest one Ravnos needed a nuke dropped on it
Several nukes, actually. The first just pissed Zapathasura off. Also they weren’t normal nukes, they were enchanted up the wazoo by the Technocracy. Also it’s worth noting that he was slowly winning a protracted fight against three extremely powerful Kuei-Jin bodhisattvas at the same time, *and* when the sun started to come up he just conjured a massive typhoon to blot it out so that he wouldn’t have to waste effort on tanking it (I.e. normal sunlight couldn’t kill him, but it could hurt him, and he didn’t want to be bothered by that). Also in the process of waking up he drained the blood of like ten million people psychically, and by the end of the fight he’d psychically drank so much blood that Bangladesh kind of didn’t exist anymore. And finally the sunlight that killed him wasn’t normal sunlight, the mirrors concentrated it to be like a hundred times brighter than normal.
And again: he is by a significant margin the weakest of the original 13 Antediluvians that survived to the modern day (Tremere and Giovanni are way below him but then they’re also way younger and not the originals). He at least still has a physical body that can be targeted and eventually killed.
The situation was bad enough that the Technocracy authorized their…I forget what the threat level/response is called but it basically goes “no limits on resources, no limits on sacrifices, and it doesn’t matter how many Sleepers see it happening because if we don’t stop this RIGHT NOW then it won’t matter if the Consensus changes to something we can’t control, we’re all dead.”
Don't forget the Nagah who woke up just to fight him.
"Ah!, finally the prophecized evil we were created to kill!"
>Several nukes, actually. The first just pissed Zapathasura off. Also they weren’t normal nukes, they were enchanted up the wazoo by the Technocracy
Heh...nothin personnel, mortals
From all the weapons in the world one would expect the hydrogen bomb to be the antivampire weapon per excellence.
Its white wolf, so of course their OC donut wouldn't be effected at all
Why? The vampires of oWoD are not affected by ultraviolet radiation and the like. The sun burning them is a supernatural effect imposed by the curse.
>I forget what the threat level/response is called
I believe it's Ragnarok Protocol, or something to that effect, but yeah, very cool.
It actually kind of helps with the perception of the Technocracy as being the closest thing the WoD has to genuine Big Goods, the fact that they do in fact have a defined point past which saving lives is more important than preserving their control over the world.
Granted the logic is probably something to the effect of, "we can always seize control of the Consensus again later, AFTER we've saved the world, we've done it before after all". But the point is that the Technocracy are not moustache-twirlers who'd rather let the world burn than give up their control of it.
> *and* when the sun started to come up he just conjured a massive typhoon to blot it out so that he wouldn’t have to waste effort on tanking it
I thought it was the Kuei Jin that summoned the storm.
It was, the sun would have killed them much faster than him. They went down to the nukes though, IIRC.
Ah, thanks Anon. It's been a good while since I read the Gehenna book on a lark. I'm also amused how the gangrel antediluvian can have a moment of making everyone go "oh shit!" and have it lock in step with how if they die nothing really bad ever goes back on the clan itself.
I've only entered this thread out of curiosity and had no interactions with this game or setting before, but this sounds fricking cool. Where can I read about the stuff you described?
Also, if that guy was the WEAKEST of the 13, how broken are the rest?
Every single one of them each can end life as we know it on modern day Earth, their powers are literal plot devices
>Also, if that guy was the WEAKEST of the 13, how broken are the rest?
I think some of them are implied to not even have physical bodies anymore, like Malkav being theorized to have become one with the psychic network formed by all of his vampiric progeny (who are cursed with different forms of insanity spliced with clairvoyance). You can't harm him in any way unless you somehow annihilate the entirety of his clan at once.
Well, running down the list of the ones I know:
Brujah
The clan founder Ilyes is dead…but Ilyes was NOT the actual antediluvian, she just founded a particularly potent and expansive bloodline. The actual founder was Troile, and he can travel through time at will. You can’t kill a time traveler. Temporis 10 basically let’s him do anything related to time travel that he can imagine.
Gangrel
Ennoia earthmelded with the planet and one of two things happened: either she died after sinking into the mantle; or she is in a very literal sense the actual planet right now. Ennoia IS Earth, and you can’t kill her without cracking the planet.
Malkavian
Malkav is literally the madness infecting his Clan. As long as one Malkavian exists, Malkav exists. Think of him as being like if the Joker was an Agent from The Matrix, but limited to just Malkavians rather than literally anyone.
Nosferatu
Absimmilliard is physically frozen in Antarctica (and being worshipped by a tribe of werewolves there). However he is psychically directing the Nicktuku to wipe out the Nosferaru. Apparently he is so hideously ugly that reality itself warps around him and is corrupted when he’s awake. Fortunately he doesn’t seem to have a grand master plan beyond killing all his progeny and then killing Caine.
Toreador
Akriel/Ishtar is known to be alive in Greece, but not much else is known about him/her (his/her sex has been forgotten by the Clan, he/she isn’t trans, there just isn’t surviving information or, rather, there is competing information. Personally I’m leaning towards a trap). With Presence 10 and Auspex 10 he/she is pretty much aware of anything that happens the moment it happens, can perceive anything he/she wants, and also every word he/she utters is something that people would Milm themselves to follow and obey.
Tremere
Holy shit. Okay. So Tremere made himself a vampire and then diablerized Saulot (founder of the Salubri). This killed Saulot’s body but his soul went into Tremeres. Tremere and Saulot basically spent the next thousand or so years fighting for control of Tremere’s body or, more accurately, Tremere spent a millennium trying to kick out Saulot while Saulot just said “no”. Tremere eventually headed up a ritual intended to wipe out all Tremere antitribu and secretly intended to remove Saulot from his body. Tremere succeeded in the former for the most part but his soul ended up in the body of his onetime apprentice (who’s own soul ended up trapped in a mirror), while Saulot got full control of Tremere’s body. Long story short, Tremere was never, ever, ever as powerful as he thought he was.
Ventrue
Ventru himself is almost certainly dead. Surely. But then they never found a body, and killing an antediluvian has usually resulted in the clan being nearly wiped out, but the Ventrue are doing just fine. So…who knows?
Lasombra
Lau-Som-Bheu is definitely 100% dead for sure, as any Lasombra can tell you. He is definitely is not an all-consuming literal black hole that has been sighted at various war zones and places of devastation that just sucks everything into it, never to be seen again.
Tzimisce
Lugoj is literally the Cathedral of Flesh that the Tzimisce occasionally gather inside, not that they know that. He is also a massive mass of flesh and organic material that lies beneath the tri-state area. He is ALSO a kind of virus that infects everyone that knows the Vicissitude Discipline. He can manifest from any of these.
Assamites
Haqim is known to be alive, but literally cannot be found if he doesn’t want to be. Quietus 10 can also let him kill or unmake literally anything, possibly up to the point of concepts (I.e., he could “kill” your loyalty to someone).
Followers of Set
Bad news, Set/Typhon is 100% dead. The Setites are wasting their lives.
Ravnos
See Zapathasura, above.
Giovanni
Augustus Giovanni 100% killed Cappadocious, and did a better job of it than Tremere did with Saulot. The problem is that killing Cappadocious just pissed him off. In the sense of “ceasing to exist”, it’s quite possible that Cappadocious literally cannot die. His spirit will always persist and always linger somewhere near the top of the pyramid of most powerful ghosts. As for Giovanni himself, well, he’s orchestrating a ritual that if he pulls it off will basically erase the difference between life and death while simultaneously giving him ultimate power over both. He just needs something like ten billion souls to pull it off, and he’s like ninety percent of the way there.
Basically the moral of the story: antediluvians, even fake ones, are hot shit unless they’re named Tremere. Then they just spend eternity jobbing.
It's good that Tremere got dabbed on, that makes me happy
Yeah the Tremere talk a big game, but I think one of the Brujah’s stereotype quotes about them sums them up perfectly:
>”Its like someone embraced a bunch of D&D nerds and told them their spells were real.”
That plus they got themselves organized into a swell little pyramid structure which means it’s so easy to frick them up: kill one of them and you start a power struggle among all the lower tiers that messes them up way beyond what just the one death caused.
The Toreador also consider them tied with the Malkavians as the most dangerous clan in the Camarilla, likening them to stick-up prigs in high school who figured that since they weren’t getting any, no one else should either. They also have a frightening combination of brilliance and stupidity that means that they’re the sort of people who come up with a plan that looks absolutely brilliant on paper, but falls apart at the first touch of reality, and when that happens the Tremere insist that the plan was perfect and they were perfect, it’s REALITY that’s wrong. The worst part is that they do have serious power behind their arrogance, but that power only lets them frick up in ways that other clans can’t even dream of.
Pretty interesting summary anon.Any books I could read covering some antediluvian shenanigans?
Isn't one of the end of days scenarios involving The Eldest (tzimisce) that he decides to become everyone on Earth and just makes it happen instantly?
Yes. And *if* I remember right, God smites his ass for it.
Kind of, though it’s not quite that simple and it involves Tremere being a frickup (again).
See when the Tremere turned themselves into vampires, they did it via a ritual that invovled stealing blood from Tzimisce elders. They weren’t technically Embraced but it does mean that for the purposes of bloodlines, they’re descended from Tzimisce.
So Tremere (in Goratrix’s body) has meanwhile been trying to learn the True Name of Humanity itself, and he’s done it in this scenario via the human genome project. So he tries to enact a ritual - with the help of the PCs - that will give him total control over all humans and anything that used to be humans, like vampires. He totally promises no takesbacksies to let the PCs in on the rulership thing, for real, isn’t he trustworthy, don’t you trust a guy like Tremere?
Well the good news is the PCs never get a chance to find out if he was going to betray them or not; the bad news is that it’s because mid-ritual Lugoj/The Eldest/[Tzimisce]/whatever basically goes “hey that’s a neat idea, childe of mine. If I can make a *slight* adjustment, however…”
And Lugoj hijacks Tremere’s (or really Goratrix’s) body and shreds Tremere’s soul to pieces in the process, killing him. Saulot he ain’t. So then it’s Lugoj doing the ritual.
Of course then Saulot (in Tremere’s body) shows up to the PCs and says “don’t worry: I have a plan. It’s called prayer. And it’s totally going to work.”
And then depending on PC actions it either does (and God smites Lugoj) or it doesn’t.
You know, the Gehenna stuff was a big moronic, and I'm not a fan of the Week of Nightmares either, but I do love the whole Tremere/Goratrix/Saulot/Tzimisce frickery. It's just so hilariously fricked up.
Just trying to explain it without references is like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8598cxa99SQ
Personally my favorite part is the fact that no matter what happens or how hard he tries, Tremere loses every time he ever tries to do anything.
This is moronic, how is time travel a vampire power? No, seriously, how did they create a vampire with TIME TRAVEL powers?
Kono Dio da
The exact relation between Temporis and Celerity isn't ever made entirely clear, but the thing is that vampires to some degree seem to exist completely outside of the natural order, and thus can do things without needing an Avatar to frick interact with the world. From a meta perspective, it actually makes more sense that "time travel" would be a Vampire power than it would be an Awakened power, strange as it sounds.
That being said, I don't necessarily disagree, creating a vampire (or anything) with time travel powers was probably moronic. With THAT being said, the exact extent of high-level Temporis (just as with most disciplines) is never made clear. Literally all the highest-level Disciplines are plot points with potentially apocalyptic consequences, and
is just theorizing when stating that Troile (if he is even around and not dead) can "do anything related to time travel that he can imagine".
The highest-level disciplines are less about what a particular character can imagine and more about what the writer can imagine. Dominate, for example, can theoretically dominate their entire bloodline to do their will, or influence entire cities. 10 points in anything is defined as "plot device" for a reason.
I'm the ST and 10 dots only has as much as hard coded mechanics give it. Respect my autism, b***h.
Hahaha... yeah imagine a vampire with time powers...
>Nosferatu
Absimmilliard is physically frozen in Antarctica (and being worshipped by a tribe of werewolves there). However he is psychically directing the Nicktuku to wipe out the Nosferaru. Apparently he is so hideously ugly that reality itself warps around him and is corrupted when he’s awake. Fortunately he doesn’t seem to have a grand master plan beyond killing all his progeny and then killing Caine.
Where is this stated? I was under the impression
1. Abs is actually in the Marianas Trench, wanting nothing to do with anything.
2. He's one of the most suicidally depressed people in the history of the universe, but too much of a pussy to kill himself.
3. He's so good at Obfuscate the universe forgot he existed. And will never remember, even if he wants it too. No one is CAPABLE of even knowing he exists, much less interacting with him.
4. He wasn't actually ugly, physically speaking.
>Lasombra
Lasombra is currently made of the same shit the abyss the fallen angels are/were imprisoned in is made of. For those of you who never read between the lines Obtenebration is basically contacting and manipulating Hell. It's more satanic than dark thaumaturgy.
>Giovanni
I think he was last seen going on a snape hunt in the underworld to track down and kill Cappadocious.
>Ilyes is dead…but Ilyes was NOT the actual antediluvian, she just founded a particularly potent and expansive bloodline. The actual founder was Troile
Strike that, reverse it. Ilyes is the real clan founder and Troile was the founder of the Brujah as we know them. Otherwise this is accurate.
Similar thing with Absimiliard; the Nosferatu as we know them were founded by his childe Baba Yaga, while Abby considers the Niktuku to be his real progeny.
And also this basically happened with Augustus Giovanni and Cappadocious. And sort-of-kind-of with Tremere and Saulot.
This sounds really stupid, if I didn't know it was true.
Where was it said he was the weakest? I do not recall that.
>the Second Gen's already out of the picture
You believe that? Ha
Actually there is evidence two of the three survived, and one version of gehenna has Lilith show up with what may or may not be half a dozen previously unknown 2nd gen vampires.
They keep up the masquerade because they KNOW that if humans know about them they are as good as dead.
Our tribe mindset is antithetic to how they operate as a society of backstabbing blood suckers.
Were humans to have target for all shitty things that are wrong with modern times, an enemy with a face and a way to distinguish them from us they would have they days counted.
Absolute nonsense. Vampires would absolutely dunk on humanity with trivial ease, simply by being so entrenched in our infrastructure and having total information advantage.
Thats not even considering the supernatural powers.
There is nothing humans can do vampires can't do, but the reverse isn't even close to true.
No, the subtext of the maskerade, for non morons, is that it would be a bigger hassle to rule over humanity openly when thisnworks much better for them.
They tried ruling openly before. Didn't work.
>There is nothing humans can do vampires can't do
Go out in the sunlight. Also Mages, sorcerers, and the technocracy exist
werent the humans able to destroy an antedellivian in the old lore with the help of the mages?
using a combination of an anti-magic nuke specifically designed to destroy vampires and finished off with an orbiting solar ray
the gehenna supplement mentioned that, if the masquerade hadnt prevented them from developing anti-vampire counter-measures, they could have actually stopped gehenna using sheer mass of conventional firepower
but even when they are eventually overwhelmed by the antedelluvians and their vampire hoard, they still manage to destroy several 4th generation vampires despite going into battle unprepared
They supposedly killed Zapathasura, the Ravnos antediluvian with the help of some Kuei-Jin. However, it's a pretty popular theory that Zapathasura didn't actually die, given that the Ravnos unique clan discipline is all about creating powerful illusions.
>given that the Ravnos unique clan discipline is all about creating powerful illusions.
That, and he should have 9 dots in Fortitude. Theoretically, his 9 dots in Animalism could have also let him put his beast into an illusion he created for extra shenanigans, or to let it pass further magic scrutiny.
>Go out in the sunlight.
Eminence of Shadow, just as one example. Not even thinking of the legions of bloodbonded slaves they can use for anything that would need that.
>Also Mages, sorcerers, and the technocracy exist
Who get raped by reality if they try to use their powers openly, while vampires have no such restriction. Not to mention they literally tried that and the Technocracies "oh shit lets go" plan couldn't even kill 1! completly insane and almost mindless Ante.
They tried multiple times and it got fricked by other vampires every single time, not humans.
The fact that paradox exists and that the technocracy isn't omnipotent does not invalidate the fact that vampires cannot be true mages, as they have no avatars/souls, a fact that *does* negate the claim that there is nothing that humans can do that vampires cannot.
>There is nothing humans can do vampires can't do
Change. One of the fundamental underlying horrors of vampire is that vampires cannot truly change, whereas humans can reinvent themselves over time.
>muh infrastructure
Nobody said society wouldn't crash with no survivors. It's mentioned a couple of times that this is just further reason why the Camarilla maintains the masquerade, as they have no desire to return to the dark ages.
>simply by being so entrenched in our infrastructure
Here's the truth of the matter: they're not. For all that vampires go on about how they control the mortal world, the fact of the matter is that even the most influential vampire can't do much more than small pushes here and there. The human world moves too fast and is too vast and complex. Vampires don't "control" anything, they just create an impressive illusion of control. And humans can and do keep secrets from them all the time without even really meaning to, but instead just as part of humanity's normal security measures. Vampires were totally blindsided by the Manhattan Project, for example, having no idea that it had happened until the bombs fell on Japan.
>Vampires were totally blindsided by the Manhattan Project, for example, having no idea that it had happened until the bombs fell on Japan.
Considering how much info about the Manhattan Project got leaked by spies and clueless scientists, this makes the Vampires look extra incompetent.
One major aspect of this is the whole "vampires cannot truly change", along with elders calcifying over time. A big part of vampire society is that elders are very powerful, but they have troubles with the rapid shift in technology, do not understand new modes of operation or organization, and can sometimes not even overcome language barries *within the own language* without assistance. These are tremendous hurdles to direct control, compounding over time.
I think the elders' inflexibility would especially be a problem in modern times, as opposed to several centuries ago. Technology and culture moves much, much faster than it used to compared to earlier centuries. Elderly people in our time struggle to adapt to the internet or new technology. Can you imagine explaining how to use a computer to a guy whose brain has become a slab of bone and has been around since the fall of Constantinople?
the PC game does explicitly mention cameras ,the internet, and other modern technology as reasons why the masquerade is more important than its ever been before because hiding from the humans now requires a coordinated effort instead of just disappearing into the night
the gehenna supplement also leans into this, with the vampires getting unmasked on television leading to the masquerade being broken permanently
nothing the elders can do can actually stop technology and the spread, since their response is to either become deniers or to flood out the internet with "vampires, yeah right"
and it comes to naught as for every vampire they silence are two more who are willing to sit on the conan o brien show for 15 minutes of fame
All the unmasked vampire pics and vids are just AI generated slop
Thats one of those things that end up weird with all the other books because technology doesnt exist its just magic made up by a group of mages that humans belive work
russian troll farms confirmed for being a nosferatu psyop
Funny you shoiuld say that because IIRC ShreckNET is a thing where Nosferatu share info, especially on Nictuku sightings.
Yeah, it's not like magic could be in plain sight and on cameras and people still wouldn't call it out as fake. Nevermind Technocracy botnets and censorship algorithms having a vested interest in maintaining the Masquerade as part of the Consensus.
>File deleted
Proved your point a lot harder than intended.
Frick, you're right. It was just a soi-faced joke about people crying "fake" or w/e, and I didn't expect troonyjanny to be upset over it in the context of what was posted, but I suspect that there's someone deeply butthurt and just sitting and following the image feed (mods have access to what is basically just all the images posted in a single feed, which was probably intended to scan for pizza, not this kind of moderator abuse), but honestly just the fact that this exists, along with algorithms that auto-filter places like YouTube and the like, really just drives the point home.
I mean if this was oWoD, is anyone really in doubt that there'd be multiple nossie moderators, with a group of jannie ghouls in their basement? And that's before we get into the Virtual Adepts and their manipulation of the flow of information wholesale.
Eh? Vamps got their collective asses kicked way back in the Middle Ages, when all humanity had were fire, True Faith, and numbers. Nowanights, humanity has dragonsbreath rounds, a massive technological edge, and a 100,000-to-1 numerical advantage. Not even the Sabbat are arrogant or stupid enough to vampirepill mankind.
Mandatory naked noonday identity parades.
Unless you have D on speed dial, it's not practical.
>People in power wanna keep the status quo intact
Who would have guessed
>and you'll end up with shittier and shittier vamps until you're left with guys which can barely walk and dissolve into red goop if you throw garlic bread at them.
Thats not how it works. The Thin-Blooded generations are just less powerful as vampires and more human, so some of them get to eat food and walk in the sun for a bit. They still have superpowers, just less than regular ones.
Culling the weak ones is orders of magnitude easier than the really low-generation ones though. You're not gonna touch the guys who are stone melded somewhere in the alps and mindbreak you with their Auspex 6/Dominate 7 when they feel like it.
Vampire isn't about power wank. And generations aren't d&d class levels. You could let a 13th Gen neonate diablerise down to 3rd generation in order, in a single night and the next day he'd be the same character with higher maximums.
The ONLY tangible instant benefit you get from being lower generation is spending more blood per turn, everything else requires a shitton of XP.
Eating an Antediluvian doesn't make you even a fraction as powerful as them, you still need to spend thousands of years powerlifting in the hyperbaric time chamber.
Vampire just isn't about increasing in personal power, even in years long chronicles your character won't get orders of magnitudes stronger
>You could let a 13th Gen neonate diablerise down to 3rd generation in order, in a single night and the next day he'd be the same character with higher maximums
The neonate would probably just end up being consumed internally or used as a puppet by the more unfathomably ancient vampire he consumed anyway
>You could let a 13th Gen neonate diablerise down to 3rd generation in order, in a single night and the next day he'd be the same character with higher maximums.
There's a player in my game who want to do that.
He's 9th Gen now and an Alastor. He's hunting down Alexis Sorokin (6h Gen) and one thing he's going to do with the Trophy is diablerize her. But first he wants to diablerize an 8th and 7th Gens.
We are playing in Chicago, so 8th Gen can be easily found between Lodin's children, and Maxwell did mass embrace and not every one of his children were killed, so I can easily create a 7th Gen in hidding.
But damn. The dude really has an autistic strategy.
Tell him to watch his back.
7 ate 9.
While RAW you are correct every single bit of the lore around diablerie suggests more tangible and instant benefits, people who practice it being just straight up more powerful after the fact. I remember in 2nd gen there was a mook NPC "diablierist" and one thing that stuck out was he had one or two dots in literally like a dozen disciplines, including several clan only ones.
You’re not wrong, but the problem is killing the older ones. Particularly in VtM, older ones tend to be essentially gods.
Requiem is better, but unfortunately it's a moot point as the game itself is filled with gen-x grognards who refuse to let go of their crappy metaplot so the setting is stagnant at the very best and outright dying from a more realistic perspective.
>That means that Vamps are in the long term a self correcting problem.
A central theme of the setting is that is that there is no long term, and the end of the world is imminent.
Is Gehenna a vampire-only apocalypse that doesn't apply to humans (until the vamps involve us somehow) or is the world actually straight up ending?
depends on the scenario, the book has several there are two where it's a vampire only apocalypse, one in which humanity being butchered back into the dark age is the best outcome possible and one in which madmax with mutants and and living planet that sometimes terraforms itself out of boredom is the best possible outcome for humanity
the meta-barons were involved in the Gehenna too
what do you know
>That means that Vamps are in the long term a self correcting problem.
Yeah, about that. The vampires have this thing about their weakest generations, the thin-bloods. They are prophesied to be a sign of the vampire apocalypse, and enough powerful vamps are spooked that culling the thin-bloods is not uncommon in the modern nights. This has the unintended effect of waking up the oldest and most powerful vampires who--whoops--had a psychic link with all their progeny. Including the thin-bloods, whose genocide acted as an alarmclock. Cue vampire apocalypse.
>That means that Vamps are in the long term a self correcting problem.
Yeah, but the by the team they tap out the world expires as well.
>That means that Vamps are in the long term a self correcting problem. Kill the older ones (or wait for them to kill themselves in their blood sucking gang wars) and you'll end up with shittier and shittier vamps until you're left with guys which can barely walk and dissolve into red goop if you throw garlic bread at them.
Yes, that's literally the entire point of Gehenna and why vampires freak the frick out at the existence of thinbloods.
>That means that Vamps are in the long term a self correcting problem.
No
> Kill the older ones (or wait for them to kill themselves in their blood sucking gang wars)
oh just kill the older ones, that's a good one.
>you'll end up with shittier and shittier vamps
If older vampires are killing each other then they are definitely diablerizing, the vampire power is not removed from the game it's just moved around to different blankbodies. Good luck finding any of them. There's also the issue of the really older ones, who even the old vampires can't find.
>That means that Vamps are in the long term a self correcting problem.
how long term do you want to talk about? because vampires in wod are literally older than human history
>Kill the older ones
good luck idiot
>Vampires can only make Vampires that are crappier than themselves
it makes them valuable, important and unique, if they could just make a copy past of themselves or a potent vampire each time then it woudl be pointless.
if everyone is special nobody is.
Hey. Does anyone have that material that detailed a Vamp b***h's notes on what dating each clan is like? As a guide to young vamp b***hes looking to frick their way to higher positions, I mean enjoy the fullest of their unlife like the independent vampgals they are?
How do you feel about v5 versus the old style, in terms of disciplines and the not-worthlessness of thinbloods?
Malkavians losing Dementation is my big no no
So nah.
correct yes.
"Just kill the oldest ones & work your way down" is easier said than done though.
As is just waiting for all the Methuselah to kill eachother.
VTM 1E was much more interesting than what it ended up with by the time Revised finished.
Ruleswise, Revised/20th Edition were btter, but 1E seemd to have a looser and less top-heavy setting.
reading week of nightmares. doing research for some fan fic and i can't help but think, ravnos dying killed millions in Bangladesh due to the methods used to put him down. but what about the times that antediluvians got whacked earlier in history, why didn't that require methods that could kill thousands??
augustus' giovanni, and lasombra come to mind.
>whacked
>giovanni
>lasombra
Haha, yeah, about that...
On a more serious note, though, they didn't wake up crazed and hungry. They were "victims" of clandestine conflict. Even ignoring the fact that Cappadocius and Lasombra both either didn't die or actually actively wanted to "die", the situations were just plainly different.
okay, then what about set or ventrue?
IIRC whatever happened to their antes is largely or entirely unknown. They might still be out there, they might not be, but odds are pretty good that they found a way to keep on keeping on. I don't think there's a single antediluvian that is completely confirmed to be dead-dead-forever-dead outside of those killed by other antediluvians; certainly all that managed to found or usurp clans are at least implied to potentially still be around in one form or another.
Even as 3rd gens they didn't have roughly five thousand years worth of XP. They weren't AS powerful in the bronze age.
It's also entirely possible killing Ventrue caused the biblical flood or something.
Ravnos in particular can make the impossible possible through illusion. He's described as psychically eating millions of people, whatever the frick that means. And vampire "magic" in the case of Giovanni and Tremere just doesn't seem that strong outside of complex rituals.
>He's described as psychically eating millions of people, whatever the frick that means.
Vitae is about life-force (possibly as a type of Quintessence). I would posit that Ravnos psychically "ate" the lifeforce not through the blood, but by drinking the Avatar (i.e. their soul) of people through their fricking minds, as oWoD in general seems to assume a connection between consciousness and soul. At last that's my take on it.
>Vamps got their collective asses kicked way back in the Middle Ages, when all humanity had were fire, True Faith
It should also be noted that if humanity was truly vampirepilled (which is something I question if it would even be possible in oWoD), Consensus could rapidly shift, and Consensus defines reality to a great degree in oWoD. A shift towards a more magical and religious Consensus could change a lot of things in the world, such as an increase in True Faith, a larger number of Numina and Sorcery in general, a potential resurgence of Fey, etc., because if Vampires are on the table, what else?
This is one of the key reasons why the Technocracy is willing to go to bat for the Camarilla and the Masquerade, even though Mages and the Technocracy in general detest or dismiss vampires.
>Consensus defines reality to a great degree in oWoD
Mage isn't canon to Vampire.
The separation between Vampire and the rest of oWoD.
Like VtM (Vampire) is heavily associated with DtF(Demon) and MtR (Mummy) and all three can be played within the same sphere fairly easily.
Meanwhile WtA(Werewolf) introduces the Wyld Weaver and Wyrm as its primary background point but thematically conflicts with the Christian Oriented Focus of VtM and its fellows.
Meanwhile MtA(Mage) while trying to bridge all gamelines naturally falls more inline with WtA the VtM on account of the focus on ascension.
Likewise CtD(Changeling) by its thematic focus falls into the WtA sphere of Inlfuence.
Meanwhile WtO(Wraith) is just kind of there and can be slotted into any afterlife system easily while HtR(Hunter) while slotting more with the VtM sphere is best served by a wide swathe of Gamelinse to draw from.
Overall I would say that Mage is not cannon to Vampire but Vampire is Cannon to Mage and Mage is the de-facto over-setting for WoD which means Vampire is along for the ride whether its fans like it or not.
Then Gehenna happens and the Mages have to watch Big G come out of nowhere and kick down the doors of reality while they can't do jack about it. Realistically, each gameline takes place in a separate alternate universe where it is canon and there are lesser, incorrect versions of the other gamelines present.
Honestly I think I would be a fun project to look at all the different writers and see what they worked on and how they refer to the various game lines within their work.
Like Rein-Hagen was one of the original Vampire writers who also worked directly on Werewolf and Wraith but not Mage and left the company in the mid 90s.
So how did he frame the setting compared to say a later writer?
>Rein-Hagen
fun fact he's on record as saying vampire was supposed to be a 90's cultural time capsule and the apocalypse of Gehenna was always supposed to be put off while feeling like it was coming soon but never actually happening.
When Mages first started being mentioned in VtM 1E it was A implied they were the same as the Ars Magica mages and B they just used the thaumaturgy rules but I’d have blood as the source and focus of their spells.
Is there really anything preventing Vampires from knowing or learning Numina? The way I understood it, it was never dependent on having an Avatar, because Sorcerers and Psychics and whatnot aren't necessarily Awakened.
And Blood Sorcery is just something that straddles Sorcery and True Magic, while also substituting Vitae for Quintessence and access to an Avatar, but also seems to be able to truly access True Magic and its effects, merely replicating it through Sorcery. Which is why I hate how Thaumaturgy and (Vampiric) Necromancy are treated as Disciplines in VtM, because in reality it implies that some clans like the Giovanni and Tremere only really have two "real" in-bloodline disciplines, which is narratively/thematically fricking weird when everyone else gets three.
But I've never really seen it explored, but I also love the idea of some hedge wizard or psychic sleuth being turned into a vampire. I wouldn't mind playing a supernatural detective turned vampire, using things like Psychometry.
In the case of the Tremere it makes sense. Note that their “clan weakness” of all being one step blood bound to Tremere Central isn’t a clan weakness at all, it’s self-imposed since it happens by the Tremere drinking blood from the clan elders, rather than being something passed down via curse. The Tremere don’t actually have a real clan weakness because the Tremere aren’t a real clan - they’re Caitiff with delusions of grandeur.
Why do magegays have such a hard time understanding their stupid wizards aren't always relevant?
Because they want them to be relevant. There's a reason VtM sits on top of white wolf games.
It has the most consistent tone and an aesthetic that simply no other game has out there. It fulfills a power fantasy while also making it into a b***h to deal with. It's also steeped in archetypes of vampires that simply other games don't have. Like quintessential archetypes, which is part of why I don't like werewolf much. Mage really only has concepts. The problem with mages is they don't have clear archetypes in the cultural consciousness of people, we don't think too deeply about different variants of magic outside gothy witches vs. Harry Potter and Gandalf.
Like mage has cool organizations and is neat, but the real draw of vampire are these clear literary archetypes, regardless of the fact they weren't in the original iteration of the game and added for the purpose of 'classes', people like to mantle archetypes.
Mage just doesn't have enough in that category imo. Like, you can make a pseudo tarot card deck based on the vampire clans, you can't do that with the mages. It just doesn't work the same.
Nothing in at least one of the posts you reference insists that mages are always relevant, nor am I a magegay - my favorite splat by far is Vampire, autismo.
That being said, I like all of oWoD, I don't discriminate or get my panties in a bunch over any particular splat.
Wrong, moron. Both of those posts tried to downplay Vampire's eternal supremacy over Mage, which has no relevancy to it.
Because the Technocracy struck the killing blow on Ravnos which not just in this thread but within the greater tabletop sphere its the big "hey check out of wild this setting gets" example on top of the sever difference in mage's power level in comparison to the erst of the splats.
Therefore people who are basically WoD secondaries naturally gravitate towards it as an over setting when trying to parse out all the game lines.
>the Technocracy struck the killing blow on Ravnos
This is what secondaries actually believe.
Exactly
>Mage isn't canon to Vampire.
Yes it is. It's all in the same universe, anon. Just because they each recognize the mutable reality of the setting, allowing for multiple mutually exclusive myths to be simultaneously true doesn't change that. All of oWoD operates on unreliable narration by design and for *very* good reason.
>It depends on which oWoD cosmology turns out to be real
Ignoring unreliable narration (in that no-one in-universe can really can know) they're *all* real. It's one of those really fricky aspects of oWoD.
>I'm the ST and 10 dots only has as much as hard coded mechanics give it.
The hard-coded mechanics say "plot device". :^)
This has always struck me as odd, because everything in how Vampire is structured seems to favor clans being used in this fashion, building different "classes", but at the same time, the free-form format means breaking a mold is both encouraged and trivial, and from a narrative perspective it almost never truly makes sense to have a group of people from different clans, and certainly not neonates (which was always the default assumption, AFAIK).
I guess it could be that the clans were created just to appeal to different fans of different "classes" or archetypes, but it's almost weird how well that ends up lining up with the different kinds of vampires depicted in fiction, especially as some depictions were very new at the time of The Masquerade's conception (The Lost Boys coming to mind especially; which other depiction could possibly fill the "Fighter", for example?).
This is genuinely one of the things that do bother me in Vampire. The only way to truly progress beyond a certain point is through diablerizing, which is simultaneously depicted narratively as something that you absolutely shouldn't do for a multitude of reasons, potentially derailing any kind of ongoing scenario for DECADES, your aura being blackened in a very literal sense.
>The hard-coded mechanics say "plot device"
So it doesn't do anything.
>Yes it is. It's all in the same universe, anon. Just because they each recognize the mutable reality of the setting, allowing for multiple mutually exclusive myths to be simultaneously true doesn't change that. All of oWoD operates on unreliable narration by design and for *very* good reason.
The writers don't agree with you.
Oh I like that screenshot, it's true too. The question should never be 'how does this fit with mage' it should always be 'how does this fit with vampire' (if you are asking that question)
A reasonable philosophy. I like when a game writer trusts the players to work things out according to their own tastes.
Whatever you think that post says, it doesn't say what you think it says, nor does it conflict with what writers have said prior, should their opinion even matter (it doesn't).
What's described is exactly what was discussed prior.
Cope
I accept your concession.
Anon is right, unfortunately. Your post does read as fueled by copium. It would behoove you to expound on your objections.
Their objections are "la la la I can't hear you"
I'm already accepted your concession, you can stop prostrating yourself.
>Anon is right
Trying to samegay at this point just comes across as desperate, anon.
>expound on your objections.
That's just it, though, I have no objections. In no way does anything "Patrick O'Duffy" wrote conflict with other statements by the writers (even if their opinions would matter, which they don't) or by myself.
The fact that you seem to think this post is some kind of "gotcha" that says something it doesn't is really not something I can do anything about, should I even care to do anything about it (I don't).
I'm not samegayging. Hard as it may be to believe, at least two separate anons found your objection to lack teeth or basic merit. And this one no longer cares enough to keep listening.
See? Told ya.
It depends on which oWoD cosmology turns out to be real, which in turn depends on which apocalyptic endgame scenario goes down as they are all mutually exclusive between gamelines.
One of the problems is if you actually diberize a set of elders it is almost 100% because a stronger elder set it up as part of a plan he started hundreds of years ago and as much as he thinks its his plan his Methusalah sire has actually set it up so he can eat them at the right time and extend his own life a bit more
for people who think that is unrealistic remember that the capital city of the us is where it is because a pre historic lasombra methusalah wanted her roman childe to get the us nuclear launch codes
and she somehow planned this centuries before nukes been a thing
The issue with this kind of masterminding in fiction is it only makes sense if a character is telepathic or can see into the future. It especially doesn't make sense when elders have fossilized brains and zero ability to adapt to new information.
>The issue with this kind of masterminding in fiction is it only makes sense if a character is telepathic or can see into the future.
good that auspex is a common discipline then
>It especially doesn't make sense when elders have fossilized brains and zero ability to adapt to new information.
i mean where do you even get that? like the second part comes up sometimes, but the first? vampires don't become senile and most of them have enough mental stats to use computer based on the logic alone a guy with 8 int and zero dots in computer is gonna roll the same as a mortal computer specialist with 4 in both after all
the amount of boomerism with the leaders have been downplayed over time
acting more like vampire disco dans
they arent totally out of the times and are at least broadly aware of modern technology, but are anywhere between 20 to 200 years out of date in how they think humans dress up as
Unless you are an Ante that has plotline based info and is canonically setting up all the events happening with other vampires. Done right it can be good shit like the Chicago by Night stuff being two 4th Gens fighting through proxies
>a character is telepathic or can see into the future
>elders have fossilized brains and zero ability to adapt to new information
These things are not mutually exclusive to any meaningful degree, and one does not negate the other. Prophetic visions and oracular abilities are *relatively* common in the World of Darkness. Also, the statement that they have zero ability to adapt to new information is wrong; they plainly do have some ability. They are just shit at personal change and end up working through multiple intermediaries.
If anything, the ability to process vast amounts of information even while in torpor ultimately becomes essential to methuselah as they have to act through their web of childer to achieve anything at all. It has been implied multiple times that elders exhibit at least indirect control and knowledge of (and from) their grandchilder, and that torpor doesn't interfere with this ability, but may in fact be fundamental to it.
>Chicago by Night
Man, remember when the US was more than just Los Angeles and israelite York? It's insane how fricking incestous American pop culture has gotten since the 90's, when everything from sci-fi to detective shows to soaps and subsequently also TTRPGs were set in Chicago, Detroit, Dallas, Miami, or literally just on the fricking roads in the South or Central US.
Today it's token at best, like "Uuh, what about Detroit, can we do something with it?" Even when we get something, it's usually some regurgitated stuff, nothing truly new, like the Magnum P.I. show for Hawaii.
That's just business
Hell even NY is out of the picture now, at least as more than a default background city. Which makes sense as most of the iconic parts of the city have been gentrified to hell and back.
You still see nondescript route 66 proxies sometimes though.
tons of cartoons take place up near the great lakes, though
minnesota is really popular as a setting as an in-joke, since it looks a lot like canada and a lot of cartoons are made in canada
>and then theres kiff, which takes place in a fictional land inspired by south africa
I assume that because of the state funding for the arts in Canada as a long standing part of their initiative to prevent American Culture from consuming theirs they make a lot of cartoons and use Minnesota to appease the American audience while keeping things culturally Canadian enough for the funding standards?
johnny test comes to mind
it was created in the US but production moved to canada after the first season
the town of porkbelly never officially has its location shown, so that it could be seen as either canada or the US
but the town is within driving distance from mounties, everyone plays hockey, and its prone to heavy snow, and confusing things further both ontario and californian flags show up
so everyone assumes its Minnesota
Yeah I almost caught myself and kind of wanted to exclude New York, but I still think it crops up enough in the public conscious to qualify, but yeah I agree, it's not a default city anymore, which is fricking crazy; not because it's not a default city, but because within my lifetime, there didn't use to be any "default city" *at all*. And I'm not even American!
We see slightly more diversity when it comes to cartoons and animated stuff in general, I guess, but in those cases it is more common to have made-up cities/towns "inspired by" than actual backdrops, and they will default to something like Los Angeles at the drop of a hat even while pretending that it's, like, a faux-New England town or something.
I just think it's fricking boring. The U.S. is huge, and when you start to (re-)watch old shows and look at old material, there's such genuine diversity in locales and sensibilities, and there's just not anymore. Everything today comes across as Californian navel-gazing, an inability to relate to others, and constructed faux-diversity, and it's sad and tiresome.
Californiafication has been a problem for a very long time. I'm inordinately fond of Shadowrun for sticking to Seattle and continuously fricking California over.
Vampires don't change in the sense that their personality and mindsets are set in stone. Even if my throw away Brujah somehow survives to be a thousand years, he's still just going to be an LA gangbanger from the 1980s. He will probably understand the basics of how his space station works and how to download the latest data dump from extra-solar colonies to stream the "new" season of his favorite show. They don't grow as people, but they can still learn through rote memorization.
Near Dark does a great job playing with the threat levels of vampires. At night, of course they're terrifying. If you meet a vampire in a dark alley and live, it's because they let you. But it plays around with the sunlight so much. Being burnt by sunlight fricking sucks and there's a hundred different ways it could frick you up, and most things just go "uh they board up the windows, all scenes take place at night" or "oh no, they just found the vampire den where they kidnapped the chick, and it's ten minutes until nightfall!". It's handwaved when it should be used.
Of course different vamps, different rules. Still it's a good explanation, the dudes who have to kill to live and can't do anything 50% of the time are gonna be doing a lot of scurrying around.
that movie was great. what clan do you think they are?? i'd say they're a pack of sabbat gangrel antitribu.
Brujah - The Lost Boys, Near Dark - Fighter
Gangrel - Near Dark, Stoker's Dracula (1897) - Ranger
Malkavian - Martin, The Vampire's Kiss - Cleric (as a seer)
Nosferatu - Nosferatu (1922) - Thief
Toreador - Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles - Bard
Tremere - Faust, Lee's Dracula (1958) - Magic-User
Ventrue - Langella's Dracula (1979) - Paladin/Cavalier
Classes of D&D 2E, which the authors of VtM never named as an influence, but did say different clans were mean to be a shorthand for traditional RPG classes.
>yfw you're a 5000 year old vampire lord and some angry redneck drives a combine harvester into the wall of your den in the middle of the day and instantly ashes 1000 years worth of sires
>being 5,000 years old
>having walls combine harvesters can get through
>not living in a giant dracula castle
NGMI
Mid West Hunter would be pretty amusing.
>Most cities less then 200k, making them 10% or less of the bigger cities
>lots of space
>lot less observation
>Hunters are less sophisticated
Good or bad there. Intersting to see what "Wiesses PIg Farm' who also happens to home dozens of nazi vampires, on the polices radar as maybe homing a serial killer using pigs for body disposal but in actually is a legit pig farm (with a ghoul'd sowmama just to get the biggest and meanest ghoulpigs). The hunteres have a Sprayer Biplane, a membership at the farmers coop, and enough .308 to put down a militia, but two dozen vamps?
>nazi vampires
What are the nazi vampires going to do when they run into nazi hunters? Schizopost at eachother?
>So Vampires can only make Vampires that are crappier than themselves and the only way for a Vamp to up their power level is to drain another vamp dry, which is a big no no in Vampire town
Correct
>and liable to get a Vampire SWAT Team sent after you if you try?
Incorrect. While the Camarilla openly frowns on Diablerie other factions embrace it. The Cam are also a bunch of hypocritical jackasses and drinking another vampire's soul is actually fairly common.
>That means that Vamps are in the long term a self correcting problem.
Sort of, but...
>Kill the older ones
The further down the chain you go the more powerful the vampires are. A thousand year old, 5th generation vampire can probably survive anything short of a nuke and mop the floor with any realistic threat that would present itself. But it's nothing going to, you're never going to get anywhere near it before everything from street gangs to the IRS is out to merc your ass for opposing him.
A 3rd gen vampire is basically a god. One of them waking up is literally a sign of the end times.When the Ravnos progenitor woke up he sparked wide ranging natural disasters like flooding and earthquakes, people all over india saw hindu gods rampaging up and down the ganges, and the sun got blotted out for three fricking days. He survived TWO nukes and a hitsquad of ancient vampires, while fighting in open daylight for several days, before they finally killed him.
>(or wait for them to kill themselves in their blood sucking gang wars)
Those "gang wars" have been going on for thousands of years. Good luck waiting them out.
>you'll end up with shittier and shittier vamps until you're left with guys which can barely walk and dissolve into red goop if you throw garlic bread at them.
The thinnest thinblood is still appreciably more powerful than a human, and he's sun proof and quasi-immortal. The vast majority of vamps don't care about garlic btw.
>ITT: Everyone realizes how little sense WoD makes as a setting.
Just take the gamelines you like and do your own thing with them. If you have crippling enough autism, run it in a different system too, oWoD's got famously bad mechanics.
I think oWoD makes a lot of sense, and don't really have any troubling reconciling the splats. All you need to do is to realize that they are all equally true and that no-one in-universe knows for certain about any of the fundamental truths. But you do make one very important point:
>ust take the gamelines you like and do your own thing with them.
This. People obsessed with canonicity needs to understand that canonicity doesn't come at the declaration of a legal document or at the demand of a marketing department.
I decide what is canonical and what isn't. And so do you.
far as I'm concerned, what's Canon is what the guy known as Vampire Mike says is canon.
He's just one GM who's been running games since wod was new, runs good games, and doesn't let any one game run too long in the tooth, and he's a nice guy.
The original Story System was listed in the back of VtM 1E as
Vampire
Werewolf
Magus
Ghost
Fairy
Lupin had animal totems by Milwaukee by Night which came out prior to WtA 1E, but not the same as what we got.
It was confirmed that Magus were going to operate more like Sorcerers in later Mage editions did.
Mummies and Hunters both spun out of VtM but prior to WtA.
Fairies may have been hinted at in Mage 1E, page 39, where the moon was Arcadia, ruled by Luna. So the exiles were trapped in a world where everyone saw only lifeless rock and they saw the verdant greenery, which they would have to hitch a ride on a rocket to get to the mostly lifeless rock because the technocracy might be suppressing the truth about lifeless planets.
Demons pop up early on but there doesn’t seem to have been an effort to make them playable in 1E.
I think they were searching for a new big splat in Revised.
>So the exiles were trapped in a world where everyone saw only lifeless rock and they saw the verdant greenery, which they would have to hitch a ride on a rocket to get to the mostly lifeless rock because the technocracy might be suppressing the truth about lifeless planets.
Did you have a stroke in the middle of this? Because I'd love to see you try this sentence on again.
Have any vampires in the setting (or, hell, Technocracy) ever entertained the idea of growing artificial humans (or just organs) in vats for a controllable supply of blood? They don't really have to actively hunt humans, they just need human blood. That kinda solution might solve a lot of problems for both sides of the conflict.
VtM is set in approximately modern day and we lack such biotechnology.
Ok but The Technoracy can as they have spaceships and aliens so why don't they just recruit high humanity vampires via unlimited blood to influence the clans?
Because A) the Technocracy does not necessarily exist within the VtM gameline, B) in their own gameline they don't care enough about vampires to bother, C) there are not a lot of high humanity vampires to begin with, D) plenty of those might not want to work under the Technocracy given its mission, and finally E) the backlash from vampire Elders who do NOT want to be controlled by some outside power like that would probably cause lead to messy sect schisms rather than any neat and tidy resolution.
Nta
>A) the Technocracy does not necessarily exist within the VtM gameline
But they were directly involved in fighting against Ravnos, weren't they?
>B) in their own gameline they don't care enough about vampires to bother
Fair enough, I suppose.
>C) there are not a lot of high humanity vampires to begin with
Also fair, but on the other hand it doesn't have to be something only a high humanity vampire would be interested in. Supplying yourself with virtually unlimited and renewable stock of blood without needing to risk interacting with anyone and drawing attention is just pragmatic.
>D) plenty of those might not want to work under the Technocracy given its mission
>E) the backlash from vampire Elders who do NOT want to be controlled by some outside power like that would probably cause lead to messy sect schisms rather than any neat and tidy resolution.
It doesn't have to be about control. Just providing vampires with tech would benefit both sides, because that means less vampires will have a reason to actively hunt humans or screw with them otherwise, and Technocracy has less pain in the ass. Now the actual issue might be vampires who would find the ones using vat-produced blood to sate themselves as weak and embarrassing, which might create schisms anyway. But I doubt it wouldn't be an unpopular solution anyway.
>But I doubt it wouldn't be an unpopular solution anyway.
Yeah the Sabbat would fricking hate that.
>But they were directly involved in fighting against Ravnos, weren't they?
yes, but the week of nightmares counts as a crossover event
later books still say "this book doesn't considers the other game lines to exist" or such along the lines and then tell the st to deal with it or include them if they want to regardless of how little sense it makes :/
Not taking something into consideration isn't the same thing as they not existing in the same universe, moronanon.
That being said, they are kept conceptually separate for very, very good reason, and I have never understood why people think it's ever a good idea to run multi-splat games. It's never made sense and it's not meant to make sense, and it is iterated again and again in books that the various communities and such within oWoD barely even know eachother. Even those that directly relate to eachother, like Werewolf and Vampire, most woofs are supposed to know frick all about the Clans and cainite mythology, and vamps certainly do not give a single shit about the wyrmwankery. Even mages have very little knowledge about the others, because they just make assumptions based on their understanding of how things work and consider the rest just fluff.
And yet White Wolf put out crossover books and as seen in this thread The Week of Nightmares is the big showy moment in WoD that draws in secondaries.
Hell add in that the biggest piece of marketing outside of Blodlines nostalgia is a fricking Indie cartoon based around 5e Hunters in a Multi-Splat narrative and people when they think of WoD these days think of it as this edgy interconnected power-wank fest.
There's nothing wrong with crossover books and events, though. There's a big difference between a crossover event and multi-splat games. An absence of crossover events would be absolutely weird given that this oWoD is a singular setting; what happens happens, and you wouldn't be able to have something like the Week of Nightmares without it intrinsically becoming a crossover event. When Bangladesh fricking explodes and an entire clan of vampires go insane, Mages and Hunters and Technocrats and Changelings and Werewolves and whatnots are going to take notice, regardless of whether these are all conceptually founded in their own things. If anything, crossover events are great precisely because it allows the exploration of events from different points of view and through the lenses of different concepts, exploring different themes centered around the same topic or event.
This is completely different from multi-splat games, in which competing concepts and world-views and underlying assumptions and themes all have to compete with eachother in ways that don't make sense within the universe itself.
>secondaries
I can only assume that you are the greenest newbie, because calling someone a "secondary" for something that is entirely based on fluff doesn't make any sense. Out of all the fricking things on this board, oWoD and its related games are among the ones that demarch the difference between gameplay and fluff the fricking least, and you'd know this if you actually played.
>Indie cartoon
>5e
I don't give a *frick* about gWoD or anything related to it.
I suspect he simply doesn't know what a secondary is, which funnily enough makes him a tertiary.
Anon when this
Is ones primary gateway into the hobby and they don't interact with any splatbooks then I'm going to call them a fricking secondary.
I must refer you to my previous statement:
>I don't give a *frick* about gWoD or anything related to it.
Becoming a vampire tends to frick people up something fierce, as they are now essentially soulless and instead saddled with "the Beast", a very hungry, very angry substitute, and their choices are basically between emotional ennui, seething rage, or sometimes uncontrollable fear.
If you're "properly" inducted into vampiric society, the general advice both within the Camarilla and the Sabbat is to cut all ties to your old life (which in the Sabbat can sometimes mean killing them all or embracing them if there's a need for shovelheads). When that *doesn't* happen, vampires - who as previously discussed are "stuck" developmentally when embraced - have a tendency to hold on to the things they have worse than autists.
How acceptable this is depends a lot on clan (Malkavians are famously deranged in this regard, but they are also the kings of orphan Childer) but it's generally not considered good, as it can pose a spectacular ongoing danger to the masquerade, as you now not only have one potential frickup, but possibly a whole family, a family connected to all kinds of other people, officials, kindergartens, doctors, whatever-the-frick.
A mother-turned-vampire could easily be driven to feed on their child, which is an intoxicating and additive experience to both parties, and something many vampires would consider comparable to an incestuous relationship.
>cont.
>additive
*addictive
>A mother-turned-vampire could easily be driven to feed on their child, which is an intoxicating and additive experience to both parties
>they could very well feed the child vitae to strengthen and preserve it, but this also creates a blood-bond, making the child literally addicted to the blood of the mother
Glossing over the incest and dementation involved, are there any repercussions for this cycle of feeding and feeding on the same person? Like does their blood get less tasty or less nourishing?
But goddamn, it's hard to gloss over that, that's a whole fricked up horror thing in its own regard. Now I'm imagining some horrible scenario involving a nursery matron who's been ghouling the kids she's supposed to be taking care of, and the PCs having to put them all down.
>are there any repercussions for this cycle of feeding and feeding on the same person? Like does their blood get less tasty or less nourishing?
None that I know of, no. Depending on the generation and power of the domitor, the amount of vitae expended to ghoul someone is fairly trivial, and a ghoul can be fed upon almost daily. Many ghouls also serve as blood bags, so it's not uncommon - but feeding on someone does put them into a stupor and the bloodloss does make them anemic, so you probably shouldn't be feeding on your ghouls every day - being fed upon has an intoxicating, delirious effect, so a ghoul being fed on regularly will be like giving someone MDMA daily and heroin in the weekends, so you'd have the clingiest fricking ghoul, which is honestly something I could see a soulless mother take perverse pleasure in, so maybe you're on to something.
And yeah it's incredibly fricked up, and definitely horror-film-tier. I'm imagining something like a 50's orphanage from which the children can never leave, surviving into the modern day to the incredulity of some unsuspecting adoptive parents.
>"You would never leave matron dearest, would you, my child?"
>30-year-old 7-year-old child sitting in vampire lap suckling blood
>background full of hollow-eyed children in antiquated clothes waiting silently for their turn
>from which the children can never leave
From which the children never want to leave, even.
>30-year-old 7-year-old child sitting in vampire lap suckling blood
>background full of hollow-eyed children in antiquated clothes waiting silently for their turn
Frick, that's pretty much it. It sounds almost like a Delta Green scenario. Actually, it sounds like it could fit into any modern setting, just tweak vampire to whatever is setting appropriate.
>the new sister at the rural church is very good with the children
>she's a bit eccentric and teaches them strange things
>they get very attached to her
>but you know what, it's great we have someone so touched by God to serve his children
And then slowly people start to realise something's wrong, or the kids serve as a vector of infection for the rest...
So no self-sustaining inbred loop? I suppose the kids become bait for dear mother to lure in unsuspecting strangers.
>Glossing over the incest and dementation involved, are there any repercussions for this cycle of feeding and feeding on the same person? Like does their blood get less tasty or less nourishing?
no having a number of willing "blood dolls" is even a background you can buy called "herd" it's very common among the ventrue do to their feeding restrictions
however a single person does not have enough blood in them for a vampire to function, i think it was everything above 2 blood points per month or week was unhealthy and a vampire needs 1 per night to even raise
Herds are generally human, though, and a ghoul should recuperate much faster than a normie. That said, I do agree that it would be unhealthy for the ghoul to be fed on every day, let alone multiple blood points. But more than that, I think most non-demented vampires would realize that it's a waste of a ghoul to treat them that way - you're tying up a very powerful servant into being a mere blood bag, which is something any random human could be, many of them just as willingly as any ghoul.
But I think the "non-demented" ship sailed the second "mother vampire" was uttered.
ghouls need to spend vitae to regenerate the health levels lost and have a general vitae upkeep
in otherwords draining your own ghoul means you are wasting your own blood
That's.. that's actually a very fair point, I'll concede my idiocy on this.
The Technocracy is stated to effectively be living about 30 to 50 years in the future, technologically. What is bleeding edge experimental technology to us is trivial to them. Given that we can theoretically clone humans ourselves and the only thing stopping us from externalized cloned wombs is ethics, I think it's safe to say that the Technocracy can clone people.
That said, those clones will likely only be pre isely as stable as the plot requires.
No vampire that I know of, but the technocracy (and the council, for that matter) for sure. The real problem is that it might be hard to actually endow something with an avatar/soul, and I think that it's entirely debatable whether something without quintessence would actually sustain a vampire through the blood (i.e. vitae).
But if you grow them from scratch and they develop conscious, etc., I guess they'd get that same as anyone else, but then we're not really working around any moral conundrums.
Hyperautist plz go and stay go.
whats the lowest generation that he could hypothetically defeat
WoD lore has always been a jumbled mess and you should use official material as a guideline. Hell, I'm pretty sure its popularity is 50% being the only urban fantasy RPG that really focuses on classic horror monsters, even if half of them are nothing like the general conception of those monsters.
A potentially power hungry member of which Clan of Vampire would join with high tech humans to try and gain power by taking down the other vamps?
>kill all the older vampires
>cain goes and makes a dozen new 2nd gen vampires
>kill cain
>god laughs and revives him
>kill god
>reality falls apart and everyone dies with him