So was Sephiroth in control or was Jenova?
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So was Sephiroth in control or was Jenova?
So was Sephiroth in control or was Jenova?
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Jenova isn't really sentient on it's own and uses Sephiroth as it's brain
While influenced by Jenova's instincts and drive, Sephiroth was still the one in control.
Jenova is sentient, but might not be sapient.
So Jenova is like a tapeworm?
Yes. A mind controlling tapeworm. BTW, the wormworld posters have always been correct.
or a pet.
We don't know precisely how sentient or sapient Jenova is or was. There isn't any explicit information presented to us that can allow us to make a reliable determination, only conjecture. Sure, we are plenty aware that it took the form of loved ones to lure in the Cetra, but that may be purely reflexive in nature. Part of the charm in this and The Thing is that the creature is purely alien. We don't know its motives, whether it thinks or what it thinks about, or even what its ultimate goal is. We just know what it does, and why it is a problem.
Personally, along with enemies such as Lavos, I have always considered Jenova to be analagous to a planetary virus. In my mind it just performs its functions as a plant: It takes in energy, expands, feeds itself. I consider it as sentient as one as well, which is why it is so terrifying. It doesn't have any true objectives other than the basest imperatives of its nature.
>emotionally manipulates cetra
Even if you want to assume that sephiroth is the one controlling jenova you literally do not need any other evidence to realize jenova was a completey sentient being capable of thought. Something acting on instinct would not try to communicate or pose as a traveler
I don't think Sephiroth is directly controlling Jenova. Despite later statements by series creators to fluff up his importance and adulterate his character, I view Sephiroth as a being whose mind was gradually fractured by Jenova. I don't think that we are fighting Jenova's will taken form, but rather an immensely powerful super-soldier whose will has been corrupted by Jenova's influence. A sort of amalgamation of the two, unlike the average person who would simply return to Jenova's source and be completely subsumed. And with regards to Jenova's sentience, in my opinion there really isn't compelling evidence to reasonably state for a fact that it is sentient. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume it has goals, but I don't think it's ultimately clear one way or the other, which is why I think Jenova is the most compelling enemy in the series.
You sound frustrated, I would say that with regards to FFVII headcanon is the only thing we can rely on, because the official canon was developed and confirmed by creators after the fact. If you think Sephiroth being so badass he supplants Jenova's will is compelling then by all means, go with that. I think the original was far more nuanced and left up in the air enough the audience could come to their own conclusions, some of which were obviously more valid than others.
The discussion is based on what the original story told not what the developers retconned. If the developers retconned shit then its not really a valid point on this argument
Right, which is why it's silly to label one interpretation as headcanon, since they're all headcanon now. I never said otherwise, I'm simply trying to point out that my personal evaluation is pretty fair given the material we have to work with.
I'm arguing it is still his will, albeit tainted by Jenova's influence. When someone is infected by a parasite or disease that alters their behavior, we can easily point to manic behavior that is not how they would normally behave, but we also don't say the disease is controlling them, just affecting their behavior. I don't think Sephiroth was being puppeteered by Jenova, if anything I believe that the being we see is a sort of fusion of the two. Sephiroth's will and power were so great that, instead of being absorbed to fuel Jenova, he remained distinct, but his mind permanently fractured by Jenova's presence. I don't personally think Jenova has its own direct goals, from my point of view it is a highly-aggressive alien entity that is just going through the motions to survive in the only way it can.
To add, it should be noted that Sephiroth is different from other cases, and if Jenova were truly a distinct being with its own clear goals, it would have spoken to us the player or towards the party at some point as such. As in the case of Zemus or Cloud of Darkness the being that is in true control always in some ways makes itself known in the series. I won't say that it's clear evidence against Jenova being its own thinking being, but it certainly lends credence to what I view as a creature with purely animalistic drive, and not a villain that has an end goal with steps it is taking to achieve it.
If sephiroth gets corrupted by jenova then its no longer his will. You only want to think that because thats what the developers are retconning to when what we’re talking about is their initial intent in the original game
Sephiroths mind fractures when he finds out the origin of his birth and believes himself to be a cetra. Jenovas influence had nothing to do with that. Its more accurate to say that he was Jenovas willing accomplice at that point even after discovering the truth. Sephiroth and Jenova probably felt a strong instinctual bond to each other due to his hybrid nature. Jevova more than likely had some influence on Sephiroth but it goes both ways as his plan to become a God was clearly his idea and a change to Jenovas behavior. It was a symbiotic relationship with Sephiroth becoming the "brains" more or less and Jenova content to let him play general.
>charismatic
He was a 100% autistic socially isolated loner with zero people skills. He litteraly could not related to other humans which is big part of the reason he snapped as soon as discovered that he really was different to normal humans on a fundamental level
>He was a 100% autistic socially isolated loner with zero people skills
This.
In the lifestream flashbacks, Tifa comments that even when she very first met Sephiroth, he seemed strange, cold, and artificial.
He was uncomfortable because the place seemed familiar
>I don't have a hometown
He was raised by Hojo
>He was uncomfortable because the place seemed familiar
You don't get artificial, cold vibes off someone who is a little uncomfortable.
If someone is in your home for the first time, you can feel their unease, but they don't feel cold and artificial unless they are a very particular kind of person.
Well, when was the last time you saw a 6'0'', pale, Silver-haired man with smooth, perfect features and thought "This is normal"?
There's a difference between someone looking a bit unusual, and them putting off serial killer vibes.
Sephi IS quite literally artificial. Ace detective Tifa was right with her judgement.
Seph isn't really characterized very well before his meltdown but he is actually some kind of "hero" who people make action figures of and a public figure despite literally being an alien monster. He must have some ability to perform in public.
Though he probably hates that a lot.
>He must have some ability to perform in public.
Not at all. He's a perceived as hero because he killed a lot of people and was major factor in winning the war. The rest writes itself
He was so autistic that he came off as creepy despite being a 10/10 anime bioshen.
Especially since this technique wouldn't even be necessary against anyone BUT Cetra.
Against literally anyone else, on literally any other planet it has eaten before, Jenova just strolls in and infects everyone with no muss or fuss.
The only reason more strategic methods were required is because the Cetra were able to communicate with the planet, which told the Cetra bluntly what was happening.
In any other scenerio, the native population doesn't even have reason to suspect anything weird is happening, Jenova doesn't need to bother with advanced infiltration and subterfuge, and can just casually mass infect and roll civilizations over as it becomes convenient.
These strategies were necessary for the Cetra because they were implausibly warned in detail of what was happening, putting them on higher alert than the native population otherwise should be, meaning this trick of Jenova's isn't likely something done by reflex, as it's unnecessary. The fact it was able to react to the Cetra plucking this information from seemingly nowhere, and lead an organized resistance and war against something that, by all accounts, SHOULD just burrow into the planet and slurp up that tasty nougat in peace, indicates that it can react to very unusual circumstances very quickly, and can discover ways to manipulate novel species into engaging in risky behavior it can exploit.
>Against literally anyone else, on literally any other planet it has eaten before, Jenova just strolls in and infects everyone with no muss or fuss.
Do you even read what you type? Lets go over your logic
>it literally only needs this tactic against the cetra
>if it were to encounter any other life form it wouldn’t try to fool it because it doesn’t have human intelligence
This literally, does not make sense.
It wouldn't be able to recognize the unusual, and likely novel context that required the action in the first place if it wasn't intelligent. That's the point.
If it ran on instinct, it's incredibly unlikely that this behavior would emerge, as it is a pointless waste of time and energy, and exposes biomass to risk for literally no advantage against natives that aren't informed of Jenova's presence and activity.
This behavior was only necessary in the context of the war with the Cetra, and is unlikely to be necessary in any other circumstance, meaning Jenova more than likely made an intelligent adaptation to current circumstances.
The Black Materia is another good example, Jenova has no reason to have any instinctive response to the Black Materia whatsoever, since that is also something essentially unique to this situation. It can only really be making informed decicions and moves with regard to it.
Basically, the war with the Cetra is too complex and unusual, with Jenova making too many contextually appropriate, contextually effective moves for instinct to be a reliable reason it acted the way it did. It also doesn't seem to make any critically inappropriate actions, which you would expect if a creature operating off of pure instinct were thrust into incredibly strange, novel conditions.
It is much less of a stretch for it to act the way it does when it does if it is intelligent, and making informed decicions based on context that it believes will work in context.
Instinct relies on fairly stable context, and fairly stable response appropriateness. The entire point of intelligence is being able to make or less consistently appropriate responses to novel contexts and contexts with very complex features, because instinct cannot make those kinds of adaptations quickly enough to save the organism. Instinct relies on long established patterns of context and response, intelligence quickly finds and expands on patterns to create new responses.
You literally just said jenova had to act intelligent to manipulate the cetra but at the same time you said its an act born out of pure instinct. Do you even know what you are trying to argue?
Is it really that hard to accept that jenova controls sephiroths dead fricking corpse?
>at the same time you said its an act born out of pure instinct.
I never said that.
I don't know who you thought you were arguing with.
I just made an observation about Jenova's behavior not fitting a pattern of instinct.
>I mean, this is a presumption with regards to terrestrial life
This is 100% true, it is absolutely possible that, say, every planet naturally develops sentients that it can communicate with, every planet gives these sentients a White and Black Materia, and every planet goes to war with Jenova, and every time Jenova pisses off the Planet enough to make Weapon, lets Weapon and the sentients fight it out, gets the Black Materia, and blows the popsicle stand, but this one time, it didn't account for an absolute chad madman named Reeve making a talking cat fortune telling spy drone slot machine that dances over the corpse of dead girls to lighten the mood, and tilting the balance of power just enough that it looses at the last moment, because Cait Sith is truly one of a kind.
It's pretty unlikely, though. But possible.
I'm more referring to Jenova's qualities in how it attempts to subsume living material and transform it into monsters. With regards to the events of the games, I don't think it is clear that it is Jenova's goal to summon the Black Materia to wound the Planet and inherit the power of the Lifestream. We can only conclude that if we also conclude that Sephiroth was a puppet of Jenova the entire time, and I don't think the evidence is compelling enough to believe that. Certainly at the conclusion of the game, Cloud does not enter the Lifestream and battle Jenova, but Sephiroth's will. It's pretty clear to me that Sephiroth did not truly die, nor was directly controlled by an intelligent being.
The Ancients say specifically that Jenova has already consumed at least one planet. What would make Sephiroth in any control after the meteor?
>The Ancients say specifically that Jenova has already consumed at least one planet.
This.
It's not interpretation or linking the game to Chrono Trigger to say Jenova eats planets, then disperses back to space, it's explicitly said in the game that Jenova is a consumer of planets.
Which is crucial in the context of destroying the planet with Meteor, something that is completely self-destructive to Sephiroth.
It is never said a single time that Jenova is a consumer of Planets in FFVII. That was added in afterwards in further Compilation material. Additionally, Sephiroth's goal was not to destroy the Planet, but to wound the Planet in such a way that the Lifestream congregated into one place where he would absorb it and elevate himself to godhood. The Meteor was a tool to cause coagulation of the blood, not a hammer to destroy the Planet itself.
>That was added in afterwards in further Compilation materia-
LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER MY HEADCANON WHILE IGNORING THE INGAME TEXT
>Additionally, Sephiroth's goal was not to destroy the Planet, but to wound the Planet in such a way that the Lifestream congregated into one place where he would absorb it and elevate himself to godhood
Doing this would kill the planet.
It would possibly kill life on the Planet, we do not know for sure. We only know his goals. It is certainly never stated a single time that Sephiroth's goal was to destroy the Planet itself, just to give himself great power. It's a possible byproduct. It is never brought up in the original game that anyone, including Jenova, purposely sought to destroy the Planet in its entirety.
The planet is a sort-of-living, semi-sentient entity because it has the lifestream and the lifestream is the key component of the cycle of reincarnation. Sephiroth/Jenova's plan would kill both the planet itself and life on the planet.
The Planet's Lifestream is the source of life through reincarnation, but it is still a planetoid, and would not crumble even if Sephiroth were to absorb the entirety of the Lifestream. There's never any clear indication that Jenova itself seeks to do so however, only Sephiroth. Regardless, it's clear that Sephiroth wasn't summoning Meteor specifically to destroy the Planet, even if it ends up ultimately killing all life on it.
>but it is still a planetoid, and would not crumble even if Sephiroth
That's literally exactly what Bugenhagen's model does.
Mind you, Bugenhagen's model of the solar system is accurate and updates quickly enough that not only was Meteor on it, but it exploded when Shinra hit the actual Meteor with the rocket.
It might seem irrational, but if the man's model of the planet crumbles when the spirit energy is taken, I'm inclined to believe him.
Also, the planet is not a living thing figuratively within FF Vll, it is, very literally, a living thing, that is aware of what happens on it, and can tell the Cetra things in detail.
I rewatched the scene in its entirety and you are absolutely correct, Cloud also follows up by explicitly stating the Planet will be destroyed. So even if Bugenhagen were to be speaking figuratively, there's reason to believe that exact thing would happen. So I was incorrect, Sephiroth plans would ultimately result in the Planet's destruction. It's ultimately unclear if he knew that specifically, but it almost certainly would have happened, barring him deciding upon ascension for whatever reason to act as a new God or some such.
Even if we assume the chunk of rock that made up the planet would remain intact without the lifestream (which is a maybe) it would only be a chunk of rock and no longer a living entity.
I mean, this is a presumption with regards to terrestrial life and all the evolutionary adaptations that come with it. It could be that Jenova uses similar tactics on any lifeform it approaches, including animals, how it gained those abilities is left vague. Perhaps it takes the form of a cat in heat to attract a feline and then absorb it, assuming it feeds on them. We don't know as Jenova is an alien from outer space, and we are never given a direct line to its thoughts, only statements from outside or from people who are unreliable. Jenova's search for the Black Materia could really just be Sephiroth trying to do such himself, having nothing directly to do with it. We really have no idea on Jenova's genesis, or its true motives, only that it crash-landed eons ago before being sealed. We don't even have a good idea of its shapeshifting qualities and to what extent it performed them, just that it would take the form of loved ones.
Surely, but why use his form continuously, and speak with regards to the goals he espoused before he was subsumed? If it were truly Jenova then why do we fight a form of it prior to Safer Sephiroth, and why do we even fight Sephiroth's will deep inside of the Lifestrem? It is pretty clear that Sephiroth remains a distinct entity, not just a puppet of Jenova's will.
>respond to the goals
What goals? Before he died all he was thinking was that jenova was “his mom” and that he was an ancient because of it.
Ff7 “””sephiroth””” is just trying to destroy the fricking planet, which is exactly what jenova wanted from the start.
His goals were variable but all expressed openly. He sought to find the Promised Land and inherit the birthright of his people. Afterwards he learns the truth, as he fell directly into the Lifestream and discovered what the Promised Land actually was. We don't know if that is what Jenova wanted from the start because it's never said. We only know from the text that we were given that Jenova would take the form of the loved ones of Cetra and then infect them and turn them into monsters. It's never stated it had any goals with regards to the Lifestream, other than assuming that Sephiroth's goals later are its goals.
I’m pretty sure its stated that what jenova wanted from the get go was literally the lifestream but contact with it would wound it.
This is where sephiroth coming in makes the most sense.
When was this stated?
In his head(canon).
well written
Its literally all his own interpretations on it. None of it is fact
Jenova had hosts before Sephiroth, it is drawn to evil by it's nature. Evil is a cosmic force in every Final Fantasy because they are about conflict between light and darkness.
Jenova was manipulating Ancients over 2000 years ago.
I don't think Sephiroth is even pushing 30 yet.
Sephiroth. You outright kill Jenova in a truly forgettable boss fight before getting to him.
You "kill" Jenova multiple times throughout the game and it never truly dies because it's not a singular entity but rather a mass of cells that can make up a single entity (or many) and can corrupt and take control of any living thing (except the Cetra). Jenova is kind of like the alien from the movie The Thing. Sephiroth was also a part of Jenova.
I didn't remember this. Thanks.
moron
>except the Cetra
Almost every monster you fight is a descendant of corrupted cetra. Hojo's notes on their past specifically go over how Jenova would infiltrate cetra villages impersonating a wounded traveller and slowly corrupt them when they welcome her.
She is absolutely sentient and sapient and cunning.
Sephiroth became the dominant personality and subordinated JENOVA's cells to his will after he melded with its body at the northern crater when he rode the lifestream there following the Niebelheim incident.
I don't think it is unintelligent because it fooled the Cetra by mimicking their loved ones with its metamorphic cells to get close enough and start killing them off before they were able to rally a counterattack.
>fooled the Cetra by mimicking their loved ones
So it's definitely like The Thing
Yes.
The Thing, with a pinch of Lavos in terms of goals.
Hojo explains it all in the northern crater, before Cloud gives the black materia to Sephiroth
It was all Sephiroth's doing
Hojo is a literal insane schizo who thinks he can breed a dog with a woman to propagate both their species and injects himself with jenova cells to turn into a blob. Of course he wants to believe seph is in charge, because hes his son and he wants to join him
>NOOOOO, NOT MY HECKIN HEADCANONERINO, THE GAME MUST BE LYING TO ME LALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU
Imagine being this buttblasted by a game that you can only reeee
Yeah, these jenovagays are hilarious
The first half does not follow from the second half. Hojo isn't totally without the ability to reason just because he's a mad scientist. You are inferring manipulation on his part or lack of ability to derive the truth from the simple fact he conducts weird experiments, that doesn't really follow. Kuja was insane in the membrane and we still had no reason to disbelieve his motivations and statements, and they all ended up being just as true no?
Who the frick is kuja
>t. didn't play the game
I like how everyone ignores this just so they can keep their precious headcanon
It's more like most people who theorycraft ff7 have never gotten that far in the original game and only have played the spinoffs and watched Advent Children.
maybe, but I just think they weren't paying attention
You have to have mental illness to think that sephiroth is the one speaking to you here when the game has already fricking established more than once that Jenova has the power to morph into other people and everytime you encounter sephiroth you fight Jenova.
Please for the love of god stop being moronic.
Just like a lot of people ignore the scene where jenova kills aeris and calls cloud a puppet. But right, headcanon.
The literal being speaking to Cloud in his fricking head is headcanon, it was actually sephiroth and not jenova.
How moronic can people fricking be? Do you really think sephiroth is doing all he is doing because of his own thought process? No hes fricking doing it because of jenovas influence, and its not even actually sephiroth whom you fight the entire game, hes sitting in the northern crater the entire game
>Do you really think sephiroth is doing all he is doing because of his own thought process
The story goes beyond "thought processes" with regard to Jenova and Sephiroth. If you are thinking in those terms, you have already failed. If you're dwelling on who is "in control" or whose "thoughts" are driving the story's antagonist, you will never have a correct understanding no matter which side of the argument you choose to argue.
There is no side here anon.
Jenova is what causes sephiroth to go schizo. Its moronic to even fricking assume that jenova isn’t influencing or controlling sephiroth much less assume that jenova isn’t sentient enough to try and cause pain and suffering to those she infects.
She literally fools the cetra making them think she is just some wounded traveler, it requires conscious thought to be this devious.
You absolutely cannot assume jenova is just some brainless parasite trying to eat the planet on instinct
moron
>You absolutely cannot assume jenova is just some brainless parasite trying to eat the planet on instinct
You absolutely can, but that is not important anyway.
When Sephiroth dies, his WILL lingers on. It's not his "thought process" it's his intention-- his desires. To say it IS Jenova or IS Sephiroth means you are stupid and do not understand the story including elements it has directly told you. The voice speaking to Cloud can be taken as the lingering will of Sephiroth manifest in the cells of Jenova. It's not exclusively one or the other, nor is the distinction particularly relevant or important. What's important is that the Jenova cells are a part of Cloud and that ultimately, in the end, Cloud will have the will to conquer that taint within himself.
The story is first and foremost about Cloud, not Sephiroth or Jenova. Until you understand this, you will continue to make highly moronic posts like this one:
>you absolutely can
No you can’t. A being without thought would not try to literally fool another being emotionally at that, thats not how it works.
The rest of your post is just fricking headcanon. “Sephiroths will lingering on” can also be seen as “jenova simply took over sephiroths body”.
The only clear thing we see in the game is that jenova is a sentient being that corrupts people. You can’t just assume like the moron that you are that sephiroth took control of jenova and started influencing people through her when that is never actually explained in the game.
Jenova assuming the form of Ancients' loved ones doesn't necessitate conscious thought. It could be the evolutionary equivalent of prey evolving the use of camoflauge and be purely reflexive in nature. Jenova never directly speaks to the party a single time, at least in such a way that we can ascertain any of its actual goals. Instead, if we're to believe that it has manipulated Sephiroth, it appears to fracture the mind and subsume their will, very much like a disease infecting the mind. I liken it to rabies causing a victim to become deathly afraid of water, albeit on a grander scale.
This has to be the most moronic take i have read on this thread. Worse yet it id literally all headcanons and assumptions and you are using it to support your “theory”
>sephiroth literally dies
>this sephiroth you keep seeing running around is actually jenova transforming into him
>this means jenova is sephiroth
I am amazed at the level of mental gymnastics the retcon makes people apply to the original script.
You can literally just simply accept that its a fricking retcon.
>sephiroth literally falls into the Life Stream
>this sephiroth you keep seeing running around is actually Sephiroth transmitting his thoughts through the life stream to different clones made of the same cells while his original body regenerates in the Northern Cave
>this means jenova is sephiroth
Yes
>>>>>>>>i made al this shit up and its my headcanon
When you have more substance than “i think this is what happened” then come back here and post an argument
>The literal being speaking to Cloud in his fricking head is headcanon, it was actually sephiroth and not jenova.
no, Sephiroth is using Cloud's own mouth to talk to him in that scene because Jenova is inside Cloud
No you fricking moron that is literally jenova talking, jenova killed sephiroth not aeris you fricking idiotic mongrel. The fight that happens right after this confirms it.
For the love of fricking god the game even makes it into a point to make it seem like sephiroth is talking and then jenova speaks to cloud in his head.
Jenova can't talk idiot it has no sepience
why are you so fricking stupid that you think Parasite Eve and FF7 would actually use the same plot hook jesus fricking christ you're so fricking fat and stupid why do you keep breathing and eating food like it's not a waste of space and energy?
Lmao someone didn't go to the icicle Inn and watch gast tapes did they??
I literally did, Jenova still uses borrowed intelligence from it's primary host.
Again, the game telling you in plain english who's in control and you still have people plugging their ears and going LALALA IT'S JENOVA, CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA because they're so emotionally invested in their video game headcanon
Sephiroth also kills jenova…oh wait
Gee i wonder why hojo is calling jenova sephiroth, couldn’t be because jenova is transforming into sephiroth right? Nah
Aeris* not jenova
Maybe Anons were too young at the time to read any of that.
But then why were the ones with Jenova cells being drawn to Midgar at the start of the game?
I have.
Like, five or six times.
The most recent was about a month ago.
Cloud and some early clones were clearly being drawn to Midgar. The head wasn't in Midgar, Sephiroth wasn't in Midgar, the body was, but that would mean Jenova is doing the summons.
Unless I missed something.
>Unless I missed something.
You did. Play the game again or watch a video up until the North Crater reveal.
>Sephiroth directed them there to steel Jenova's body
>Without Jenova's body the Clones can't transform into Sephiroth
>Remakegay logic
The Clones using Jenova's body so Sephiroth could use them to manifest in the outside world has been the Canon way he does it since at least Advent Children. It's unclear how it works in the original game but it certainly supports the theory with the Clones always appearing nearby to Seph and Jenova.
The copies were injected with J-Cells, nothing more. There's nothing to suggest in-game they're using Jenova's body or Sephi telling them to go get it for him in the OG. Remake's doing it that way, not the OG.
Play the game again.
>It's unclear how it works in the original game
Play. The. Game. Again. Or read Hojo's sheeple in
It's like you people are pretending to be morons or are literal brainlets.
Autism be like
>directed them there to steel Jenova's body
This post was made by Yuffie.
Sephiroth directed them there to steel Jenova's body to bring it back to Northern Cave. Without Jenova's body the Clones can't transform into Sephiroth (or the big Jenova monsters), they need Jenova cells to operate.
>this and all the moronic replies
What is an unreliable narrator?
unreliable narrator only works when it's made clear this is the case. which isn't happening here.
Hojo is clearly insane and motivated for his hypothesis to be true cause its his son
perhaps, but that's not what an unreliable narrator is in a literary sense.
He's a narrator an he's unreliable.
you'd think the thread would've ended not much longer after this post, but some people just can't let go of their headcanon to the point of believing the game is lying to them
There's simply no getting through to these people
None of what hojo says there is indicative of what actually is happening he is stating the facts of his research into jenova based on what he did to sephiroth but none of that changes the fact that sephiroth was fricking killed and thrown into the lifestream. Anyone with common fricking sense would realize this. Besides theres scenes in the game that suggest jenova is literally mind controlling cloud.
>sephiroth was fricking killed and thrown into the lifestream
what part of his will surviving don't you understand?
>will surviving dont you understand
The fact that its all fricking headcanon and actual nonsense from the perspective of common sense. Whereas everything about jenova already has established fricking rules.
Nothing in the game says his “will survives”
>"Sephiroth was not content to diffuse his will into the lifestream"
>nothing in the game says "his will survives"
like I said, no getting through to these people, they just plug their ears and go lalalala can't hear you
I feel like hitler arguing with israelites
Sephiroth in this case is jenova not sephiroth. Thats the part you literally cannot comprehend because you insist on applying retcons to the argument
>Don't you understand Sephiroth means Jenova so everything they say about Jenova means they're talking about Jenova my headcanon says so
Fricking kek, you are adorable. The characters in the game disagree with you. The final battle disagrees with you. The game in its entirety disagrees with you, the Ultimania disagrees with you. The later games and movies disagree with you. You're fricking moronic
>Sephiroth in this case is jenova not sephiroth.
kek, you're hilarious, I can't stop giggling to myself at work, I hope you're not a troll
>Cloud's soul literally leaves his body to destroy Sephiroth's will in the lifestream
>NOOOO IT'S JENOVA, JENOVAJENOVAJENOVAJENOVA AAAAA
>ad hominems
>no arguments
>types like a moron
Fair enough
>no arguments
Against your headcanon? Kind of hard to prove your made up notion of the events wrong when you refuse to accept it. You don't have any explanation, you're kind of stupid bro. Sucks to suck and all that
You have your own headcanon though. You literaly make up shit like “his will survives” for the sake of your argument against objective facts. Its not even difficult to imagine that even in the retcon sephiroth is also jenova’d by simply sumrising that hum going insane is also his ego changing.
The only argument being made here is that in the original jenova was manipulating sephiroths body because he was dead, because it fricking makes sense, because you literally fight all of jenovas limbs all the way until the north crater.
It's stated in the game that his will survives you fricking moron. Nobody once in the entire game even says Jenova can't be subsumed by the Lifestream. You made that shit up. It's objective fact that we fight Sephiroth at the end, not Jenova. Your argument that Jenova was controlling him is pure conjecture, it's just you saying we should take you at your word because it makes sense to you
You fight his body, right before fighting jenova, yet again
But somehow your brain doesn’t understand nuance
You fight his body, then Jenova, THEN HIM, THEN HIS FRICKING SOUL. You fight this motherfricker in the middle of the Lifestream which you journey to in fricking spirit and beat his ass and Jenova is fricking NOWHERE. Nothing about your assumption makes any fricking sense, which is why you are being laughed at repeatedly for being so aggressively stupid.
You literally never fight his soul
Cloud beating him up in his schizophrenic imagination is symbolic of cloud getting over sephiroth and jenovas hold over him not a literal fight against his soul because after you kill the body of sephiroth there is no more source of jenova
Absolute fricking brain rot
>Cloud beating him up in his schizophrenic imagination
This is why absolutely no one is taking you seriously. You just make shit up and expect anyone to bother listening to anything you have to say.
>you just make shit up
Look whos talking, fricking irony
Bro I'm not the one that discounted the entire conclusion of the game as a fricking fever dream. That's some pathetically asinine shit, you just made it up whole cloth without a single thing to back it up.
There is literally a part where cloud becomes a fricking vegetable. There is NOTHING about any post made saying that the end of the game is just clouds fricking fever dream. Instead its cloud getting over his fricking schizophrenia, something you will be able to accomplish someday hopefully
You just fricking said it was him just fricking dreaming. We have an entire sequence of him tunneling down in the Lifestream, his body surrounded by motes of light, to battle Sephiroth you fricking moron. You're claiming that ALL of that was just him imagining it and getting over Sephiroth? How obscenely moronic do you think everyone is to believe even a moment of that shit? No one believes a single shred of anything you're saying lmao
>cloud holds his head as if he was writhing in pain
>then all the moronic bullshit you posted happens so he fights sephiroth in his head one last time
>then he almost falls into the hole with his used goods second plan waifu
>somehow this means cloud went into the fricking lifestream
You are so fricking moronic my god
>No you don't understand, Cloud didn't actually journey to fight Sephiroth in the Lifestream. He just had one last mid-life crisis while the entire cave was collapsing around everyone
>No, it makes sense please believe it you have to believe it Jenova was the bad guy the whole time
Did you watch the ending you goddamned moron?
What hojo says is literally NOT reliable, at least not the part of it being sephiroth.
>Did you watch the ending you goddamned moron?
Yes, I saw the part where he journeyed into the Lifestream and fought Sephiroth and defeated his will once and for all. You did too, you are just braindead and totally incapable of accepting reality
Watch the ending again. You are literally fricking wrong. The entire sequence where he fights sephiroth shirtless happens IN HIS HEAD
His spirit left his body to fight Sephiroth. How are you seriously this fricking moronic? You genuinely believe that after the conclusion of their battle Cloud had a dissociative event and fought an imagined form of Sephiroth in his fricking head. Despite having the motes of light surrounding him, despite it clearly being the Lifestream, despite Aeris reaching out to him and then minutes later being the will that saves the entire Planet. That's a huge fricking hilarious coincidence. Thankfully anyone with a brain could tell exactly what happened: That Cloud descended into the Lifestream to once and for all destroy Sephiroth's will.
>his spirit left his body
The entirety of what you just described is literally all symbolic and can all be explained by cloud having another mental breakdown. You literally see him snap out of it as the ground begins to collapse and tifa tries to get his attention.
You are saying that Cloud, after finally defeating Sephiroth with his team, and with the North Crater collapsing around him, had a mental breakdown equivalent to when he physically fell into the Lifestream. You think the entirety of it was symbolic, despite us being shown his body cinematically cruising into the Lifestream, being surrounded by it, and having the hand of Aeris reach out to him moments before she saves the entire Planet.
Are you being serious right now
And you’re saying that he fell into the lifestream despite the utter fricking objective fact that in that same cutscene he did not. On top of that you’re assuming I said “he had a mental breakdown on the level of” like the fricking lunatic argumentative frick that you are as if I ever said that. Mental illness.
I'm saying you're arguing that his dissociative episode was equivalent to when he fell into the Lifestream, which did happen and which you don't remember because you haven't played this game in decades apparently. In order for him to envision all of this shit he would have to have a fricking mental breakdown. What are you even saying? That all of this was just a single microsecond and that he imagined all of it as a daydream when the cave is collapsing around them? How does this make sense to you at all? Like fricking at all??? I'm genuinely perplexed, this is the weirdest shit I have ever heard from someone interpreting the ending, the mental gymnastics are awe-inspiring.
Yes anon things in your imagination can happen in just a few seconds, ever heard the term “my life just flashed before my eyes”? Also I recommend you watch the ending again because he literally does not fall into the lifestream. I am also not arguing that he had a mental breakdown of several minutes like your mental illness seems to want to enforce although given all the time that passes while the floor crumbles it COULD HAVE been several minutes.
That's fricking stupid. You're arguing he just got done fighting Sephiroth and, while the cave was collapsing around them, just daydreamed about beating Sephiroth for real in his mind. WHY. Why would he do that. And he DOES fall in the Lifestream, earlier in the game. That's what I'm saying. He supposedly has a waking dream of such realism as though he fell in the Lifestream, despite nothing such happening
Because you see him holding his head like it hurts. Try watching the ending again, he doesn’t fall inside the hole by the end of that entire scene and is instead hanging on to something instead of perpetuating this fantasy of yours
Yes, he is. He's holding his head because his fricking soul leaves his body. He journeys into the Lifestream and defeats the last vestige of Sephiroth. Cloud DOES fall in the Lifestream IN DISC 2 YOU MORON, in Mideel. Play the fricking game. You're arguing he has a dissociative episode grabbing his head and having a hallucination while the entire cave is collapsing around them. That is ridiculous
Nobody says what happens in disc 2 didn’t happen what you’re getting called out on is saying he falls into the lifestream in the ending which if you didn’t mean that then try to he more clear instead of accusing people of things they never said. Multiple times you were told to watch the ending again cause cloud doesn’t fall into the lifestream in it.
Also his soul doesn’t leave his body thats literally just your headcanon and there is virtually nothing to suggest or imply that. Its at the very least a possibility among many except its the one that least makes sense in a game where cloud regularly hallucinates stuff.
So once again, yes, that whole topless sephiroth fight happens in his head, which is why tifa tries to save him as he snaps out of it, cause the floor crumbles.
Also you are a fricking moron
At no point, not a single time in this entirely ludicrous conversation, did I ever state he fell into the Lifestream at the conclusion of the game. I will quote for you where your moron brain was incapable of reading what I said:
>You are saying that Cloud, after finally defeating Sephiroth with his team, and with the North Crater collapsing around him, had a mental breakdown EQUIVALENT TO WHEN HE PHYSICALLY FELL IN THE LIFESTREAM
In all caps so your moron brain can possibly read it properly this time. I never said he fell into the Lifestream, I said he journeyed into the Lifestream to defeat Sephiroth's spirit, which he did. There is everything to suggest it, we see his body externally journey into the Lifestream, surrounded by motes of light. We see him defeat Sephiroth, and his form disperse after being defeated. And we see Aeris reach out her hand, only moments before she saves the entire Planet by using the power of the Lifestream itself to stop the imminent destruction of everyone. You are totally fricking devoid of brain cells if you took from this final moment that he had a fricking daydream while the entire North Crater was collapsing around everyone for NO FRICKING REASON. This is why absolutely no one takes you seriously, you are limitlessly stupid and not only incapable of accepting reality but refuse to read anything that other people are saying.
Except all of what you just stated isn’t explained by the game at all so it’s literally just your own interpretation of events and one that liberally takes advantage of a lot of shit that doesn’t make sense. Don’t pretend you didn’t misunderstand posts either. Literally all you’ve done this thread is spout headcanons
All this thread I have spouted the exact canon. It's clarified in the Ultimania and expanded upon repeatedly in the series. Even in the original game it is lent to his spirit leaving his body. He fricking sees Aeris' hand, you see his soul journeying through tunnels, you see the Lifestream. WHY would Cloud imagine that? Just why? Why are you so insistent on not seeing this the way that it was so fricking clearly spelled out to you? It's inane.
Nobody is talking about ultimania or the rest of the series. Your problem is that you refuse to keep up with the topic of the thread which is purely about the original game and not what changed going forward.
Do you think that in the original sephiroth having one wing was canon too?
Yeah in the original he clearly leaves his body tardo. You know what, go ahead and believe your schizo bullshit. Every topic needs a laugh
>clearly leaves his body
Okay if we go by this explanation and you insist it makes sense then why didn’t his body go limp and fall down into the lifestream. If he left his body it would be lifeless and simply slump down. I’ll tell you why, because he still had his conciousness and because all that magic bullshit happened in his head. You literally have no feasible explanation for any of the stupid bullshit you spout because you are nothing more than a midwit talking big
Whatever you say schizo, Cloud had a daydream of defeating Sephiroth and Aeris reaching out to him moments before she saved everyone from inside the Lifestream. Go ahead and keep believing that horseshit lol
>no argument
I guess you finally came to terms with the reality of your situation.
The reality being you are a huge fricking schizo, yes
Nah the reality of being unable to come up with an argument. That or being unable to continue your bait.
>my headcanon is better than your head canon
>my made up theories are better than your objective facts
Sure
This.
Jenova has established rules and patterns that are corroborated by multiple characters, direct evidence of things happening in game, that include everything Jenova/Sephiroth did. We have undeniable objective proof that Jenova does certain things. We have information from Ifalna, passed down not by myth or legend, but by living memory of the planet, and active conversation with those who were there, corroborating and expanding on what we see. We have circumstantial evidence in Cloud, Sephiroth, the other reunion lemmings, and Hojo's interactions and explanations.
The ONLY people who corroborate Sephiroth having any say whatsoever are Sephiroth/Jenova, during the time Sephiroth is alive, and thinks Jenova is a Cetra, and Hojo, who is A: Not providing evidence, just hypothesis B: Expresses a pattern of self praise, and Sephiroth is his work, and C: Is shown to have a major emotional investment in Sephiroth, as his son.
Anything Sephiroth/Jenova says at all has to be thrown out, because it is more beneficial to Jenova for people to believe it is all Sephiroth.
Hojo is a dubious source of information on a good day, but this specific topic broaches his 3 triggers; his work, his son, and his trust in his own supposed genius whether supported by evidence or not.
Since the actions taken by Sephiroth/Jenova are right out as a source of direct information. Any information provided by Hojo has to be corroborated elsewhere, especially on the subject of his greatest creation and son, Sephiroth.
Reminder. Ghast was SMARTER than Hojo. Hojo is a shrewd scientist, not an especially good one. Ghast was clearly on board the Jenova train. Hojo is the only person who corroborates the Sephiroth's will theory, and he does this barely two weeks before he has a fricking psychotic break, injects himself with Jenova cells, and tries to give Sephiroth his energy like he's fricking Goku.
Say what you will about the sequels that came after, nobody gives a frick about those.
There is nothing in the game, at any point, that directly states Sephiroth is being puppeted by Jenova. Arguing that Jenova is taking the form of Sephiroth and merely PRETENDING to follow his creed is asinine: It makes no sense. Jenova is a being that utilizes the faces of others in a bid to draw them close so it can infect them, not imitate a person whole cloth down to their megalomaniacal objectives. There is no benefit whatsoever for Jenova to perfectly pretend to be Sephiroth even at the conclusion of the game, down to his appearance and later on even appear as his spirit in the Lifestream.
It makes no sense at all. How is it more likely that this is all Jenova's doing, rather than the supreme will of a genetically altered scientific creation making use of an alien substance it was partially created from? The only reason why we are to dismiss this is simply because...you don't like it? Why wouldn't a super soldier that has had his mind fractured first by the revelation that he is an inhuman experiment and then subsequently thrust into the fount of Life itself to find the Promised Land he journeyed from surrounding him NOT then resolve to become the God he'd always envisioned himself? Why would he NOT make use of Jenova parasites to make his will real and become greater by wounding the Planet?
>It makes no sense. Jenova is a being that utilizes the faces of others in a bid to draw them close so it can infect them, not imitate a person whole cloth down to their megalomaniacal objectives.
So you think its more likely that sephiroth survived being torn in half and then somehow controlled the genes of something literally almost no other body was able to handle properly is more likely.
Moreover you fail to see how taking the form of what is essentially the most powerful human you hosted is a bad thing.
Not only that, you ALSO fail to see the nuance in jenova wanting cloud to kill aeris instead of doing it herself when the game literally states that it fooled cetras by taking the shape of a sickly traveler just to corrupt them.
No jenova must be a being of pure instinct, it doesn’t think just like you also don’t think.
>So you think its more likely that sephiroth survived being torn in half
Being he's a genetically engineered superhuman made from an alien that can survive and propagate with just a HEAD? Yes.
>and then somehow controlled the genes of something literally almost no other body was able to handle properly is more likely.
Being that he's a genetically engineered superhuman that is MADE of that creature, yes.
>Moreover you fail to see how taking the form of what is essentially the most powerful human you hosted is a bad thing.
Because it's not needed. At all. Jenova has no reason to take the form of Sephiroth to do any of this. It doesn't help Jenova at all to pretend to be Sephiroth, especially at the conclusion of the game. The only thing that we know is that Jenova used to take the form of the loved ones of the Cetra, NOT that it pretended to be them whole cloth and follow all of the things they wanted to do and pretend to be them when there was no material benefit. In literally every single other instance of there being some overarching villain in the entire series, they make themselves known objectively. If Jenova were the one that were in control, we would have fought Jenova at the end.
>Being he's a genetically engineered superhuman made from an alien that can survive and propagate with just a HEAD? Yes.
>Being that he's a genetically engineered superhuman that is MADE of that creature, yes.
Oh look more fricking headcanons.
>it doesn’t help jenova at all
If you consider the fact that jenova is like a dismembered lizard tail, yes it does. Which is exactly why its body parts try to go back to it, where HER FRICKING HEAD IS BECAUSE YOU KNOW SEPHIROTHS CARCASS LITERALLY FELL INTO THE FRICKING LIFESTREAM WHILE HOLDING HER HEAD
>Oh look more fricking headcanons.
The game says it. It fricking says it, you're just disagreeing with it because you don't think the characters that fricking said are reliable. That's not headcanon, that's you disbelieving the only rational eyewitnesses that lie outside of Jenova.
>If you consider the fact that jenova is like a dismembered lizard tail, yes it does. Which is exactly why its body parts try to go back to it, where HER FRICKING HEAD IS BECAUSE YOU KNOW SEPHIROTHS CARCASS LITERALLY FELL INTO THE FRICKING LIFESTREAM WHILE HOLDING HER HEAD
That does not explain in the least why Jenova would continue to act like Sephiroth. At all. There's no reason for Jenova to continue to behave as though it is Sephiroth when there is absolutely no point. If it were some kind of masterful shapeshifter that is supposed to be fooling everyone then it would take the form of Cloud's mother, Or Tifa's teacher, or Nanaki's father, or Lucrecia, or any other number of characters that are near and dear to the party. It never happens a single time, because Sephiroth. Is. Not. Jenova. You fricking idiot.
Jenova was literally dismembered into several pieces it makes perfect sense that it was weakened while trying to reunite.
Weakened HOW? You're telling me Jenova was able to take the form of a demigod and physically lift the entire party and make them feel as though they are being ripped apart, but it...wasn't able to take on the form of a person? Something you are alleging it had already been doing throughout the entire game? I'm sorry, WHAT? Did we play the same fricking game?
Jenova was able to take the form of the person, I am not suggesting that it couldn’t at all. Every single time you “fight sephiroth” you’re actually just fighting one of jenovas limbs. Stop being moronic
Yes, you are...because Sephiroth makes Jenova take his form, because he's the one in control. If Jenova were seeking to use a form to trick the party it would take the form of the people they love to try and sway them and trick them. Why would it take the form of Sephiroth this entire time rather than their loved ones, or the other members of the party? It doesn't line up at all with your reasoning.
That is one of the things that is never explained and has to be left up to interpretation.
And the most reasonable interpretation is that an alien from another world which takes the form of the loved ones of Cetra decided to take one singular form, the entire game, pretend to be him, and pretend to follow all of his mad ambitions...for no reason.
The game doesn’t say sephiroth can survive being torn in half or that it can control jenovas cells
>that directly states Sephiroth is being puppeted by Jenova
Sephiroth taking Jenova's head from the containment cell.
Sephiroth has zero reason to do this, running off of his own understanding of what Jenova is at this time.
He was mortally wounded, so severed Jeniva's head, and took it with him.
Why?
Why would he desecrate his mother's corpse like that, for no reason?
Why would he make it a priority to get Jenova out of containment, when he is dying?
As far as Sephiroth knows, his mother is a Cetra at this point. The ONLY rational explanation for why Sephiroth did what he did, was to free Jenova into the lifestream, because Jenova made him do it.
You could also argue the Black Materia in general, because blowing up the planet kills Sephiroth, too. Only Jenova wins. But, you COULD argue that Sephiroth wants to die, so, okay.
I think I should clarify that I do not believe that Sephiroth was wholly above being manipulated by Jenova at all. But it is not clear that Sephiroth's entire motivation throughout the game was a direct result of Jenova's machinations, as though it planned out everything in careful consideration. There is absolutely no way that Jenova knew for example Cloud would summon the strength he needed to hoist Sephiroth from the ground and throw him against the wall and then into the Lifestream, if it could be said that it knows anything
I do think that the character of Sephiroth that we see at the beginning of the game (i.e. in flashbacks) no longer exists by the end. I would venture --again, my take given that we do not have ultimate clarification-- that the character we interact with is an amalgamation of Sephiroth's former will and Jenova's predatory instinct. I don't think Jenova was a thinking being per se, but an interplanetary virus of sorts that sought to subsume and grow itself, and by the end of the game the creature we are fighting IS Sephiroth, but warped by Jenova's cold, unthinking desires. It's all conjecture since we cannot know given the information we are presented, but I do believe that is what makes FFVII wonderful. Unlike the Cloud of Darkness for example, we don't have these speaking roles where Jenova explains itself. We are left to wonder precisely how much of the journey was the direct result of planning, or whether Jenova was really a creature with thoughts and desires at all. I think that is part of what makes similar enemies such as Lavos compelling as well. What does it want? Why is it here, really? We don't know.
>jenova wasn’t a thinking being
>game flat out states it fools the cetra by pretending to be a person
There is no way this is possible to be done purely on instinct.
Even if you want to pretend, that jenova talking to cloud was actually sephiroth, the fact that jenova is a being that literally tricks other people emotionally suggests it is fully capable of thought on the level of a human and the thoughts sephiroth expresses throughout the game reflect the state of mind she likely has. The other thing to suggest this is it wanting the black materia
I don't necessarily agree. What we are told of Jenova is that it would take the form of loved ones in order to infect people and turn them into monsters. This could be reflexively done, like a chameleon changing color. It could simply be using its innate characteristics to elicit a response to draw its prey close, like a venus fly trap emitting a sweet odor to draw in flies. It's certainly possible that Jenova is a thinking being with motivations, but it is vague and not expressed clearly. It calls to mind another creature which is similarly bizarre in nature, the alzabo of the Book of the New Sun. A terrifying bearlike creature that, once it consumes prey, absorbs the memories of the victim. They are known to eat family members and then lie in wait outside of a loved one's home and imitate the sound of the deceased, begging the new intended victim to come outside so they can be reunited. It's not ultimately clear if the alzabo is a sapient creature, or just using the memories of the deceased as a tool. Quite terrifying.
>this could be reflexively done
I get that your reasoning is likely “magic bullshit” but in a world with technology and science as its main centerpoint theme this literally does not make sense in any fricking way.
Even if you want to see it as a parasite, its a thinking parasite objectively with no way around it unless you think squares writing should be capable of redefining how thinking works and is defined.
If the laws of the world somehow made thinking work that way I am sure the game would have explained it but instead it leaves you to assume based in common sense how jenova works.
Why? Why does it need to be able to think to assume the form of loved ones? Again, does a venus fly trap think to draw in flies? Does an ant-mimicking spider think in order to eat ants? Does an anglerfish think in order to lure in small fish? Of course not. They simply use the tools that nature endowed them with in order to survive. The game doesn't explain anything about the nature of Jenova either way, or even the extent of its mimicry but only that it happened.
None of those examples are similar in any sort of way to adaptable emotional manipulation. A venus flytrap for example simply evolved that way and its instincts are leftover from some other species it came from. It doesn’t think about how it uses its trap it simply does.
What jenova does requires thought, because a being of pure instinct can’t just magically know what the thing its trying to trick would be tricked by. Aka it requires thought and observation. Your midwit analysis doesn’t work.
Why does it require thought and observation? We only know that it assumes the forms of loved ones, why does it need to be sapient to do that? Why could it not have evolved on whatever alien world to reflexively analyze the best form to take to lure in prey to draw them close?
Because you can’t just fricking guess what someones “loved one” is. Instinct doesn’t fricking work that way it doesn’t adapt to the perfect form to take and personality without thinking and observing first because it literally doesn’t know.
You seriously do not need 100iq to understand this.
Why? Explain why an alien entity whose ability is to shapeshift, itself an entirely alien characteristic, can't use its innate abilities to reflexively whatever form it needs to in order to draw its prey close. There are numerous magical beings in fiction that do so. Harry Potter has a creature which assumes whatever the worst fear of a person is that glances at it, it's similarly unthinking. Why does Jenova need to think about anything? An antmimicking spider doesn't think about mimicking an ant, it just does it. Jenova doesn't need to think about what form to take, it can just do it. Again, you're drawing quite a bit from one single throwaway line of dialogue. We don't even know to what extent it mimicked loved ones. It could have been a crude facsimile of the Cetra's loved ones, only a vague approximation to draw them close. Or it could have been some kind of a perfect mimic that acted exactly like the person remembered them. We don't know, it's a single short sentence and not expounded upon at all.
Because thats how logic and reasoning work you moronic dumbfrick.
Something that works on instinct does it on instinct. If it shapeshifted on instinct it would do it without thinking what it shapeshifts into and that would result in shapeshifting to the same thing or things that the being is familiar with. It can’t just guess what it shapeshifts into on this brand new planet it just landed on.
>but it can just see a human and copy it
Fricking HOW does it know what features to change or how does it even know what the “loved one” looks like without thinking and observing. Thats not behavior that can be emulated on pure instinct alone there has to be some thought and complex thought at that. Even animals think anon.
>Because thats how logic and reasoning work you moronic dumbfrick.
Something that works on instinct does it on instinct. If it shapeshifted on instinct it would do it without thinking what it shapeshifts into and that would result in shapeshifting to the same thing or things that the being is familiar with. It can’t just guess what it shapeshifts into on this brand new planet it just landed on.
I didn't say it was guessing. I'm saying it used whatever innate abilities it has to take the form of whatever would lure in the people that saw it. It instinctually scans the mind of its prey, finds the best form to take, and does so to draw them in. How does it know how to take a form at all? How does it know what a loved one even is? We don't know, it's an alien from another planet. If you had the ability to shapeshift yourself, how would you know what my dead mother looks like without doing research? You couldn't, even as a thinking being. There is obviously some magical component involved.
>This entire process not only requires observation but also thought since it literally needs to see the humans then think about which one its changing too. Nevermind the fact that its also emulating their language. I have no idea how you think this can all be done without fricking thinking. You have to be moronic
It certainly needs to see humans, but it's an alien. We don't know how it imitates people. After all, it is not as if this alien knew human language at all when it landed. There are birds which can imitate human language well, it does not mean it understands what it is saying. Same as an alien from another planet, it can simply do what it needs to do in order to lure its prey in.
If its to communicate with another human in a way where it can trick it then it certainly does not suggest the brain capacity of a fricking bird.
Furthermore, you lack critical thinking. Lets suppose, for the sake of argument, that your theory of sephiroth somehow surviving and controlling jenova was real. That would suggest sephiroth is still under jenovas influence, even if its still essentially sephiroth. Given that you can see that Sephiroth is thinking about the things hes doing he isn’t just mindlessly acting on instinct.
Also think about it, jenova has a womans body and more importantly, a head. Even if you assume it had the thought process of an animal, it still thinks. There is virtually nothing about its design that suggests it lacks a brain.
>If its to communicate with another human in a way where it can trick it then it certainly does not suggest the brain capacity of a fricking bird.
Why? It just needs to take the form of a loved one. We do not know to what extent it mimicked loved ones, just that it did. That doesn't require an intricate thought pattern. Animals mimic other animals even in our animal kingdom.
>Furthermore, you lack critical thinking. Lets suppose, for the sake of argument, that your theory of sephiroth somehow surviving and controlling jenova was real. That would suggest sephiroth is still under jenovas influence, even if its still essentially sephiroth. Given that you can see that Sephiroth is thinking about the things hes doing he isn’t just mindlessly acting on instinct.
Of course. I do not think that Sephiroth was above the influence of Jenova. I think his mind was warped by Jenova's influence. That's a far cry from being controlled like a puppet, however, I think they are two radically different things.
I'm not invested at all, I'm simply saying that there's no clear evidence one way or the other. We don't know to what extent the Cetra even existed, only that they were a nomadic people and that Jenova imitated their loved ones. For all we know the Cetra only numbered in the thousands. It's simply silly to extrapolate that it imitates perfectly a person. The only shapeshifting we see in the game is that of Sephiroth himself, no one else. Jenova certainly doesn't assume the form of any of the party's loved ones, for example, so it certainly does not lend credence to Jenova being some masterful puppeteer that terrifically imitates those nearby. If it could, it would have done it, no?
There are innumerable animals that observe and imitate. None of it requires sapience. I'm not arguing it doesn't observe, I'm arguing that it necessarily requires a sapient mind with aspirations and goals, which Jenova never once clearly espouses at any point.
Your entire theory is built upon the foundation that jenova killed the cetra in the most simplistic way possible and this entertaining the notion that transforming into another human can be “as simple as a chameleon changing colors” which is plausible of you assume jenova copied a human it saw. This entire theory however falls apart when you consider that jenova conciously copied cetra that its prey so to speak would be emotionally invested in, this requires complex thought and observation. Second, to respond to this, any animal that does something instinctually that requires observation/thought such as hunting or seeking out food it likes demonstrates a degree of sound judgement for that in particular. Jenova in particular did something that required critical thinking in any situation it fits which proves its sapience. Its far too coincidential that jenova would be able to take down an entire village of cetra much less a civilization by “fooling them” without anybody ever noticing that something was wrong which shows that it needed “sapience” to perform this task. Keep in mind that jenova drove the cetra to extinction and it did this by tricking and corrupting them not outright killing them. Your theory fundamentally does not make any sense, also I am not sure why I have to explain something like thought in Ganker it honestly should be obvious how it works.
I don't have a "theory," I'm pointing out that the mimicry that Jenova displays is never shown and we don't know the degree to its capabilities, only that it happened. You are basing a wild amount of critical thought on quite literally a SINGLE line of dialogue and nothing more. At no point in the entire game does Jenova ever shapeshift into a loved on of the party members, or attempt to manipulate them using clearly conscious thought. If it were such an adept user of this technique then at the very least it bears considering that whatever higher functions you assume Jenova had it no longer possesses. It certainly never uses it on the party, or against any of the massive number of humans that exist in the storyline, so it brings into question a lot of the assumptions that you have regarding it.
Finally, it really is not all that remarkable. Many predatory animals that are quite vicious can kill entire villages of people. And Jenova is a fricking MONSTER. We don't know how many people there were, we don't know if this singular technique is what Jenova used to destroy ALL of the Cetra. Because it's never stated outright that it is what happened, only that it used its abilities to trick them, NOT that it is all that it did. There are posters here who will doubt entire characters' expository dialogues because they are unreliable narrators, but from one single line of dialogue we are extrapolating that Jenova was a perfect mimic and used these abilities it never has in the entire game alone and NOT the terrifying monstrous forms we actually do see, yet was still somehow sealed away in a crater, complete, with no parts out and about performing its indescribably perfect mimicry. It beggars belief.
>You are basing a wild amount of critical thought on quite literally a SINGLE line of dialogue
Yes and you are doing worse on the other end with completely baseless arguments about things that didn’t happen.
Predatory animals killing people gruesomely because they want to eat them is not the same as “fooling” them. If you’re gonna try to argue this then at least have some facts to back it up, except you can’t.
I'm not arguing anything that specifically happened. That is my point anon. We don't know. We don't know the extent of Jenova's mimicry or how exactly it drove the Cetra to extinction because the totality of the information we have to go off is ONE SINGLE LINE. A line thousands of years removed from the event itself. At no point in the game do we ever experience Jenova acting as a trickster and fooling anyone using its shapeshifting characteristics. Again, that lends credence to the argument that if Jenova were ever some sort of mastermind making use of perfect mimicry, it lost that ability and those mental faculties long ago.
I'll argue that jenova was a race of doppelgangers from Gongaga
>Jenova inserts itself into Gongaga
>Imitates a young Zack Fair from childhood to adulthood
>Infects the whole village
>Nice job
>Goes off to Shin-Ra
>Becomes a SOLDIER
>Meets Aeris
>Infects her, shweet
>She meets Cloud and the gang
>They all are replaced one by one Thing-style
>Fight Sephiroth
>Beat Sephiroth
>They all morph back into inhuman creatures at the conclusion of the game
>Confusedalienface.jpg
>arrive on planet
>see group of humans hanging out together
>impersonate one to fool the other
This entire process not only requires observation but also thought since it literally needs to see the humans then think about which one its changing too. Nevermind the fact that its also emulating their language. I have no idea how you think this can all be done without fricking thinking. You have to be moronic
Speaking or communicating rather objectively requires thought. Jenova fools the cetra by pretending to be one of them and corrupting them.
Harry potter thing has established rules that explains what its transforming into. Logic and reasoning also apply that a magical being who can sense your fear would be able to change to it.
Jenova is not exactly comparable since its more organic and it doesn’t necessarily sense emotions. The other thing is that even if it could sense emotions, transforming into a loved one is a lot more complex than simply transforming into something someone might be afraid of. You need to emulate their features and personality which is a lot more complex than transforming into a simple spider for example.
I can agree with that, but it's worth noting that Jenova is an entirely alien creature. There's really no way in which it could plausibly know what prey's loved ones look like without some innate ability to peer into their mind. It's biological, but it obviously has magical abilities as well as showcased throughout the game. We don't actually know if it imitated emotion and personality. And again, we are ONLY told that it took the form of loved ones, nothing more. It could be as simple as recreating the image scanned of a Cetra's mind of their dead mother, standing in place, to draw the prey in. We don't know the extent of its shapeshifting, beyond that it could do it.
I think you’re a little to invested in your theory. Its a little too unbelievable to think that it was able to make an entire race of humans extinct by simply standing there while looking like another human. That suggests it picked them off one by one and the odds of someone not noticing this are far to unlikely. I am definitely of the side that jenovas influence is far greater than this “sephiroths will” in the original story because it simply makes far more sense and the sephiroth stuff in the actual canon has always felt hamfisted.
If jenova could “mind read” to “instinctually transform” into the ideal form to perform “tricking”, it literally, unironically, and unequivocally still needs to think to perform the deed. Mind reading is literally just a more detailed form of observation, you still gain information and process it.
In that very same scene Hojo tells cloud he's a clone which is not exactly true. everyone in the game believes sephiroth is in control, when it is jenova taking the form of sephiroth. the biggest mass of jenova cells is in sephiroths real body, which is why the clones go to him. but its not just jenova or just sephiroth. they are working together to destroy the world with meteor.
Sephiroth and Jenova are one being. Jenova was defeated thousands of years ago and Sephiroth is essentially the new Jenova.
Director confirmed that Sephiroths will overpowered Jenovas. He did so to prove that Seph was the true villain to the end and not Jenova
We've never seen JENOVA acting as an independent being in any compilation materials yet. It's always been shown in the service of Sephiroth or lying semi-dormant trying to reach out to its cells for a reunion that it's been trying to slowly do since the Cetra managed to defeat and seal it. Sephiroth essentially controls Jenova now as an extension of himself, though he seems to have had some of Jenova rub off on him since in Advent Children his motive has shifted from reigning over the planet to sucking it dry himself and using it like a WH40K Ork Rok to travel to a virgin planet to rule instead.
The remake may or may not go into this more deeply, but that's way up in the air.
The biggest mistake of FF7 was not making Jenova a waifu. Prove me wrong.
Sephiroth. (To the extent that it matters at all)
It's his will. Hojo explains when you first encounter the real remains of sephiroth and cloud gives him the black materia.
Joe mama
So you've come this far and still you understand nothing.
The woman isn't Jenova, it's just some random Cetra that is host to Jenova. Jenova is a virus.
it's slightly impressive that anon is so moronic he doesn't remember ifalna died at the train station
It's more impressive you've forgotten who Aerith's father is and who the lab in Nibelheim belonged to before Hojo came along.
So your saying that's infala? They took what they found in the cave and injected all of it into her dead body? So that's infala/jenova?
no moron jenova was already at the mansion when ifalna was still alive, the woman who jenova infected was an ancient cetra from 2000 years ago because jenova makes it's hosts into immortal monsters, which lucretia literally fricking tells you
how could it be ifalna if hojo used jenova's cells to inject into sephiroth as a fetus when ifalna was still alive as a normal woman on the run with aeris
It's not a random. It's infala.
This isn't related to RPGs.
Wrong board
Squaresoft says Sephiroth is in control but the story works better if it's Jenova in control.
In the original FF7, Sephiroth is only controlling Jenova because he had her head.
Then in Dirge of Cerberus, they changed it, so Sephiroth is a hybrid with the innate "Reunion" ability to control Jenova's Cells.
Then in Crisis Core, they changed it again, So people in SOLIDER have Sephiroth Cells, not Jenova Cells. In contrast to Genesis Cells - which was used in the Deep Ground and the Tsvets
In the original FF7 hojo wanted to breed Aerith and RedXIII because Red's "unnamed" species has long life spans.
In FF7R, Hojo's proposal changed slightly, saying he wanted to cross her with S and G types.
Aka Sephiroth and Genesis genes.
In case you missed it, the Tsvets all have Color Code names.
Red XIII is a color code name. He is the G-Type Hojo was talking about.
At the end of FF7, we see Midgar in the future with Red XIII and some cubs. How can this be? He was the last of his kind. But that's the thing with Genesis Cells, their virial and make clones of themself out of other lifeforms.
When Red told Barret "Don't Touch Me" - it's not because he doesn't like being petted.
In fact "XIII" suggests he's not even the original Xehenor-- I mean, "Genesis".
And he's just part of a set to open the way to Scala Ad Ca-- I mean, "The Promise Land"
Astute and grounded, schizoshaman.
>the story works better if it's Jenova in control.
No it doesn't. Sephiroth is the headcase who wants to wipe out humanity. Jenova is a parasite.
Even from the autistic perspective, it makes the most sense to think of it less in terms of "control" and more the nature of influence. Human will (Sephiroth) vs genetic programming (Jenova). Meanwhile from the character perspective the conflict between Cloud and Sephiroth is far more powerful than the conflict between Cloud and Jenova. To claim it was only Jenova all along and no Sephiroth at all would weaken that important aspect of the story.
Which, of course, is why the creators of the original game (the only meaningful canon) also made the final boss fights all Sephiroth and not Jenova. There's no sane reason for them to do that if what they really intended was for Jenova to be "in control" and the main villain all along.
Jenova doesn't give a shit about the people that live on the planet, but it still wants them dead indirectly.
Jenova wants to destroy the planet and return to space. That's the primary function of Meteor, the fact that it kills everyone is a secondary attribute. If Jenova actually cares about that at all, it's probably venting frustration that this fricking chicken nugget has taken fricking thousands of years to eat, the service at this McDonald's is horrendous, and it WILL be leaving a bad Yelp review on the fricking asteroid belt that will soon be built over where it used to be.
Basically this. Jenova destroys because it has to. Its in its nature. Thats how it survives and even thrives. Sephiroth destroys because he wants to. Same goal, different reasons. Their relationship is symbiotic.
It's no use. That girl has lost her heart, she cannot wake up.
The keyhole cannot be completed so long as the last princess of heart still sleeps.
Long ago the Ancients developed summoning magic. The most dangerous was Meteor.
Sometime it's classified as time magic...and I'll explain why.
Meteor does not come from deep space, but from the unseen realm.
The real danger isn't so much the impact on the planet but the impact on the timeline. Because Meteor is Time and Memory frozen in crystal.
Essentially, Meteor manifests possibilities that weren't there before, introducing some other continuity.
The real question is if the summoner is in control of the destiny they are manifesting
Other questions this raises might be:
Who has summoned it before?
How many times?
How many changes?
unique but ultimately autistic take
Meteor is only "Time" magic in FF5, a game that is overrated cancer but that's not relevant right now. Every other game, it's properly an attack or black magic spell. And whaddya know, in FF7 it's literally from the BLACK materia. Doesn't get more cut and dry than that.
You could argue that all spells are some basic form of summoning, however.
Those who look with clouded eyes see nothing but shadows.
Are you trying to say that Meteor in FF7 changed the timeline that spun off into FF7R?
Technically ~that~ meteor never hit. It was deflected by "Holy". But in FF7R, who knows?
Supposedly, White and Black Materia were given to the Cetra by the planet at the same time.
We're supposed to believe the Cetra never used the Black Materia.
Except to turn it into a giant temple holding all their knowledge. But we're fed all that through Sephiroth and Aerith.
The mural room shows Meteor being summoned. Is this a scene from the past or a prophecy of the future?
There's unused text here (temple of ancients) between Sephiroth and Aerith. Where Sephiroth talks about beings that existed while planet had abundant Mako and sealed their consciousness in Materia. Aerith clarifies he's talking about the Summon Materia. Sephiroth says this is more of their planet than anyones.
Hinting that "Holy" would just as soon wipe out humans than Meteor which is targeting Midgard.
The consensus on the "beings" Sephiroth mentions are that they were natural monsters as opposed to the artificial ones Hojo was creating by saturating creatures with mako. You fight a red dragon and then received the bahamut summon Materia. Sephiroth's dialogue seems to suggest there were other guardians that could be turned into summon Materia in the temple. Perhaps the temple was some kind of summon Materia factory
You also get the morph Materia here, which turns monsters into items. Which is interesting because the temple itself, in a sense, is morphed. To get inside you needed "Key Materia" also called "Keystone".
Sephiroth here talks about becoming one with the planet. But he has to hurt it first. The logic doesn't exactly track because Sephiroth has already traveled the lifestream. There's the idea that he was going to make a giant mako pool out of the impact crater. But again, Midgard can siphon the lifestream to one place already. We could chalk this up to bad writing.
Or deduce that Meteor had another effect.
On the Keystone, this breaks down a bit, because Materia has a secondary function, it contains the wisdom of the Ancients, meaning it could be used as a storage matrix.
Literally, if you were a Cetra, you could encode Materia with specific information, and then create something that responds to that information, or even a reaction the the physical effect storing this information had on the Materia itself. This is even before considering the Keystone could have an obscure, petty magical effect that served the same lock and key function.
It's therefore unclear how the Keystone exactly functions, there are too many variables with insufficient answers to consider.
And that's even before considering that a very possible reason that the Keystone looked the way it did was entirely because of graphical restrictions and/or convenience, especially considering the thing has approximately three minutes of screentime, plump that up to a hefty 15 if you include a meandering trip to the Temple from the Gold Saucer. And 5 if you use the wonderful gift of speedup our lord and saviors that ported the game with emulator cheats included.
>There's the idea that he was going to make a giant mako pool
This whole misalignment is more evidence that Jenova is running the show.
This entire chain of logic makes absolutely zero sense from Sephiroth's perspective. He KNOWS Meteor is going to kill the planet, not just hurt it. He's already been subsumed in the Lifestream before, and if he wanted to sponge up Spirit Energy faster, this doesn't help, this would only help later, if the planet's reserves started really dipping, and he wanted to return a bunch to the planet asap. It would be counterproductive to do it early even for this purpose, since if the planet dies from the injury, no more spirit energy.
This stated means contradicts Sephiroth's stated goal... but perfectly meets Jenova's goal, which is being fed up with this mess, hungry, and wanting to leave, and using this Materia to do it, which it has allegedly wanted to do for thousands of years.
It's actually sort of a pattern, where Sephiroth's actions and goals often don't seem to align, but Sephiroth's actions and Jenova's goals always do.
As a side note, and worth mentioning, there are multiple areas in the world where the Lifestream runs near to the surface. Mideel is explicitly this kind of hotspot naturally, one would assume Mako reactors are built on them as well, and Midgar is probably built on a major Lifestream hotspot as well. Possibly even the most active area in the world, up until Jenova's impact created the Northern Crater which is even moreso.
It makes sense that Jenova's impact would create this kind of injury and resulting beyond natural hotspot, though, since its entire modus operandi is to consume the spirit energy of planets, and the easiest way to do that is injure the planet. Why look for the food, when you can make the food come to you, and all.
You have to understand that Sephiroth is an incredible piece of shit, he literally feels no love for any living being other than himself. To him, destroying the planet and becoming an immortal space monster that rampages across the galaxy is the best thing that can happen. Jenova is not just trying to eat, it's trying to evolve and it just so happens that Sephiroth is the perfect host. For anyone else it would be parasitic but Sephiroth isn't corrupted by Jenova, their goals and interests align perfectly. This may seem like some kind of bullshit and maybe Sephiroth is actually being brainwashed but no, the developers have made it very explicit time and time again that Seph is just that evil.
Depends on your source.
FF7 itself, Jenova was always in control. "Sephiroth" was a useful tool for starting The Reunion, as it reached Jenova's destination first, and for fashioning bodies and manipulating people into helping it acquire the Black Materia, blow this popsicle stand as literally as possible, and get back to space and find a new planet to eat, ideally one without hippy elves that will hear the planet telling them it is being eaten and freeze it. Sephiroth was dead for 7 years, Sephiroth, in case you forgot at some point, is an ordinary, if enhanced human, and cannot fly, phase through solid objects, and as far as I can tell with PS1 graphics, appears to have lost his legs between his fight with Cloud and when you see him in the Northern Crater. You DO encounter Sephiroth himself as a last ditch plan from Jenova, because his corpse happened to be the strongest weapon it had left, especially after pickling in Spirit Energy for 7 years, and Safer Sephiroth can be considered something approaching a true hybrid. But it's still Jenova, animating a corpse more or less.
Any of the expanded universe material, Sephiroth was, and I don't care about it enough to tell you what was going on. FF7's story was actually good, I don't give a frick about what was done to it afterwards.
See thats what I was figuring too. I recently replayed FF7 and its definitely implying that Jenova is in control but Sephiroth thinks he's in control. Sephiorth is mearly obeying Jenova's impulses without implying. I dunno if its a translation error or not and its like that in the Japanese version, but all subsequent material after and Square themselves say it was Sephiroth in control. It just doesn't seem like it at all in FF7.
At least in the NA translation, that's a consistency with Jenova cells.
Cloud THINKS he wants to persue Sephiroth north, but that's just him subconsciously answering the call for Reunion. The game explicitly says this, so it can be inferred that, assuming the process doesn't crush the mind entirely, the influence of Jenova feels like your own impulse and drive, and either creates new motivations, or latches onto and twists existing motivations.
Actually, given how left field Sephiroth's immediate and all consuming desire to destroy the planet comes from, and how hard and fast it sets in I think that's actually more evidence that this entire motivation was implanted by Jenova. Especially since, at the time, Sephiroth thought Jenova was a Cetra, and destroying the world would absolutely kill him, too. Actually, pretty sure Meteor destroys him too anyways.
Hell, when Cloud was more mind broken, he was drawn to Midgar subconsciously, where Jenova's head was at the time, along with the famous "This guy are sick" dude in the slums, as Jenova was planning to jailbreak itself. We get both the weak and strong mind models of The Reunion in Cloud.
Sephiroth's break down was over a period of time. I believe it's said he spent weeks or month in the Nibelheim Manor reading Professor Gast's research.
Also, in Crisis Core he's bffs were leaving him behind. So that didn't help.
It was not Hojo's project originally. So presumably there was nothing in the basement (other than Vincent) that would have told him anything about Lucrecia studying Chaos and Omega. But to be fair that might have been the part of the J-project back when ff7 was first made. And the just separated the concept years later to make the PS2 game.
This is shown in Hojo too. He says he's not stopping Sephiroth and later actively helps him with with beaming him energy from Sister Ray. He claims its all for the good of science. He always says its out of curiosity, to see where his experiment leads, to see if his reunion theory is true. All that stuff.
Then its revealed he injected himself with Jenova cells. So then it makes sense why he's helping Sephiroth and he doesn't even realise it himself. He creates his own motivations to justify this bizarre impuslse to help Sephiroth/Jenova.
I think Sephiroth did the same with Jenova.
>hojo is being influenced by jenova
Literally all headcanon
>States he injected himself with Jenova cells
>Starts helping Sephiroth
>Literally doesn't know why and is equally confused.
That just suggests that jenova is the one in control not sephiroth
Hojo knows exactly what he's doing and why, he even states it to you that it's out of fatherly love that he wants to make his son into the supreme being. There's extensive backstory revealing how he injected his son in utero because he wanted to prove his research was superior to his rival professor Gast. Hojo is as much of a psychopath as Sephiroth and neither of them need to be manipulated to cooperate with Jenova, the entire story is about how mankind is more evil and perverse than nature itself is capable of being.
Wrong play doc. He doesn't give a frick about being a father. However jenova routinely pretended to be dead parents in villages so..... he's jenova
>Hot take
Jenova is in total control and is able to break the 4th wall, and the whole game is an hallucination to trick us into believing it was defeated.
>Mad scientist is mad
WOOOOOOOOOW go figure. This Jenova reaching is dumb.
So you're saying that Hojo is the only character in the whole series with Jenova cells who the Reunion theory doesn't work on EVEN THOUGH he also starts helping Sephiroth after that injection? Its just him being a mad scientist
Hojo was helping Sephiroth throughout the entire game
except for that one part where he was on vacation with some hookers
It makes a lot of sense to say that Jenova was manipulating Sephiroth's thoughts and desires at a subconscious level without ever taking direct control over him.
It makes more sense that he's just an egomaniac suffering delusions of grandeur.
I mean, Ok. Once he traveled the lifestreams and absorbed the knowledge of the ancients, THEN he could verify that Jenova was what the scientists thought it was.
And I have to assume that's exactly what happen.
But before he did that, you have to admit he had a mental break down and murdered a whole town. Running off nothing but "theories" he found in an old basement.
>But before he did that, you have to admit he had a mental break down and murdered a whole town. Running off nothing but "theories" he found in an old basement.
That wasn't a breakdown. Sephiroth was already the dominant host at that point, he literally just found out that he has no more use for society or people anymore and could just kill everyone, so he does. He became free by learning what was going on and does exactly what he already wanted to do, kill everyone for being annoying.
I cannot understate how much of a selfish and egotistical piece of trash he is, he literally wants to become a space monster and is totally fine with killing everyone on his home planet because that's how much of an edgelord he actually is. Jenova doesn't brainwash him it only gives him the opportunity to actually act out his fantasy of killing everyone without any downside (for him).
Holy fricking headcannon. Original FF7 literally says Sephiroth is the puppet master. Jenova is an extension of his body, Sephiroth is the apex of both humanity and jenova the two greatest threats to the planet.
In the wider view of the FF series, the development of "forbidden" magic usually follows a certain order.
The "Ultima" spell being first; a sort of Nuclear Bomb
And you know Japan's history with nukes. They turned them into metaphors. Kaiju. Godzilla was a metaphor.
But Weapon is Godzilla. The uncontrollable self defense system that will eradicate humans along with everything else, to defend the planet
Godzilla likes to hang out in the oceans.
And in the films, they kill Godzilla with the Oxygen Destroyer, Okishijen tbhtoroiyā. A kind of depth charge.
But then this had a side effect. mutating some microscopic crustaceans, which end up getting bigger and bigger.
The same concepts are seen in Attack on Titan, and the Cloverfield movie.
Do go on with the others.
Sapphire is OG Gadzookie, aye? Directly attacks humans quickly, and is the only one to know the ignominy of actually being beaten by bog standard humans?
There's Ruby, Diamond, and Omega left.
Actually, iirc, there's also like, Amethyst or something, that exists only in the CG of Weapon awakening.
Sadly, only Emerald and Diamond joined the World of Warcraft School of Frick You Pauldrons.
Also, god I love the Weapon Raid music.
>the Cloverfield movie.
Cloverfield is actually it's own insane rabbit hole that never amounted to anything but a wet fart because the two movies did so poorly.
It was supposed to be a nebulous media entity, like a cinematic universe not built around capeshit. Cloverfield would have eventually been retold through the perspectives of various characters, each bending the story into a new light and into a new genera. The oft-forgotten and maligned film The Cloverfield Paradox was supposed to be the kick starting of the Cloverfield extended universe into what it would become.
Long story short, the Cloverfield monster has more in common with the demons from Doom than it does Godzilla. Probably. Hard to say for sure, since everything was so goddamn cryptic, to be made clear in a later movie, releasing soon*
Even before the 'Cloverfield universe' was a thing, there was a huge ARG behind Cloverfield for months, most of a year before its release, including a damn prequel manga of all things. Too bad it did poorly because drooling morons expect cinematic studio cam quality from a random running around a destroyed city holding a camcorder.
>t. followed Cloverfield before it came out
I don't even remember Ganker's reception to it since it has been so long. It's probably my favorite movie. I even talked our chaperone (who knew me) for my HS senior trip bus back in 08 to play it during the trip lol
The Ultima Spell first appears in FF2. It's sealed in a tower and Minwu, Allah bless his soul, sacrificed himself to unseal the scroll.
Which was dumb because the story never bring up the scroll again. Even though it was always the intention to use the Ultima Spell to destroy Emperor Mateus.
FF2 doesn't explain a lot of things. Like that adventure into the ice caves to retrieve the Goddess Bell. Like. What's is the Goddess bell?
Mateus appears in FF12 as the water/ice esper. It's a "HE" yes. You have to read the glossary to learn more.
>In the course of his rule, he submitted to avarice, and the darkness took his heart, transforming him until he was both evil and corrupt. Then in his cowardice did he bind a Goddess of the Demesne of Ice, and using her as a living shield, he challenged the gods.
I mean, it would have been really embarrassing if you had to use Ultima to kill the final boss and get the good ending, when trying to use Ultima without nuking a few thousand goblins first does like 60 damage.
>FF2 doesn't explain a lot of things. Like that adventure into the ice caves to retrieve the Goddess Bell.
Frick the goddess bell, when did Guy learn how to speak beaver? Where did he learn to speak beaver? Can anyone else speak beaver? Have beavers had their own language this entire time? Are beavers sentient? Have the french been skinning sentient creatures and wearing their skin as a hat? Is there a central governing body for correct usage of the beaver language, such that interchangeability is maintained between all beavers, and beaver second language learners? Is beaver society a thing? Has beaver society progressed to the point where Beaver Ultima might be a thing?
As a matter of fact the beavers were meant to be moogles.
But they weren't called "moogles" they were a race called the Kuraion or Cryon or Klion. However you'd Romanize it.
They like cold places.
There was also other scraped races. But that's a discussion for another day.
Right so. In FF2, They needed the Goddess Bell to open Kashuan Keep where the Sunfire is.
The Sunfire being a piece of a shooting star that created the Jade Passage, which is the only way into Pandaemonia. Which rose up out of "Hell" when you kill the Emperor the first time.
Because it's clear FF2 wanted to do more, and that got reused in FF3.
So what the Norther Crater probably was...was a Crystal Pillar. Which Sunk into the planet. A storyline that didn't really get told until FF14.
The Crystal Tower was an entrance to bother the Forbidden Land of Eureka and The Dark World.
Eureka is mentioned in FFTactics as the capital of the Kashka Empire.
FF8, which has it's own Crystal Pillar, also has a Kashkabald Desert. The Pillar however fell from the moon, allegedly.
In the FF2 anniversary edition, it turns out there is a mirror version the Pandaemonia in...heaven? Maybe on the moon? Supposely the Emperor's plan was raise not only Pandaemonia from Hell, but also lower it's mirror version "in heaven" so they connect.
please don't ironically invoke the false name of chiyou/vulcan/yaldabaoth I am so tired of having to clean this shit up and you are not helping
>Like that adventure into the ice caves to retrieve the Goddess Bell. Like. What's is the Goddess bell?
I remember there's a backstory into how it was made among the books in Mysidia.
As for why the party gets it: Kashuan Keep has a lock that can only be opened by either a noble's voice or by the bell. Because Scott is dead and Gordon is inexplicably missing (i.e. he went to get the sunfire himself, but wimped out), the party goes with Josef to get the bell.
>when did Guy learn how to speak beaver? Where did he learn to speak beaver?
Guy lived in the wild until Maria & Leon's family adopted him. He probably lived/heavily engaged with some beavers at some point and grew to understand them.
I fricking hate this western presumption of a Japanese hive mind with shared historical anxieties. It's unscientific and unverifiable. In Japan and pretty much everywhere around the world when authors are asked about their inspirations they're often more mundane, personal, underwhelming things. It's patronizing and infuriating. STFU with your every big antagonist in Japanese media is a metaphor for nukes.
Even within the company in question people can't get it straight whether Japan commited warcrimes or not, Japanese people are people just like anywhere else, nobody is the same everyone is different.
>It makes zero sense to name white cat "snow
t. someone who's never seen snow
Try making an actual argument you dumb frick.
read: You are moronic and invalid
Alright. Frick off brainlet. Come back when you can articulate a point instead of greentexting things no one said like a snarky PMS woman.
worst post
The fact that people still argue about this 25 years later should tell you how bad the writing and the translation was. A lot of it was really vague and the MTL tier localization didn't help. As for the OP's question I don't frickin know. WTF is even going on gets pretty unclear around Costa Del Sol.
This
There are three chief problems with FF7's story
First, it's clear that there was a breakdown in communication between elements of the writing staff and the production staff. This is a chronic problem that plagues Squeenix to this day, so it's not farfetched to believe it happened on their first frickheug project as well. The writing staff were writing a different game than the producers thought they were making. Priorities were different, projects of this scale weren't as standard, and one person's interest, confusion, or rebellion could manifest as an entire unresolved plotline
Second, the game had some pretty shitty translations. On the surface, this is readily apparent by shit like "Off course!", getting fricking Tinctures from Fort Condor, and the brain aneurism that is the description of some weapon's special effects. The Yoshiyuki stands out in my memory. Just ask the Spain localization about fricked up. Hell, the entire Man in a Black Cape idea is localization frickery. But that pales in comparison to trying to translate huge frickoff and abstract concepts, back in a time where you could localize whatever the frick you wanted, and as long as it sort of made sense, nobody would know, ask my buddy Robotech about fricked up
Third, and likely a product of the first, the additional media created after Final Fantasy 7 has its own, unique interpretation of what the frick happened in that game. This isn't even quiet retconning of events for future storytelling, this is just saying shit happened that never did, not acknowledging that things happened that did, and just absolute narrative frickery.
At this point, your personal narrative about what the frick happened in FF7 is probably equally correct as the guy you're arguing with, because the story is fricked enough that it needs mental repairing to make cohesive sense. This is probably exacerbated if your first exposure was one of the translations that made even less sense than the North American localization.
I wish FF7 was more like Parasite Eve
The perfect example of translation frick up is "Sephiroth clones" which when you first play you assume they mean directly cloning Sephiroth himself. Not that they're injecting Nibelheim survivors with Jenova cells. Thats not a Sephiroth clone. The better translation is just Sephiroth Follower.
>The perfect example of translation frick up is "Sephiroth clones" which when you first play you assume they mean directly cloning Sephiroth himself.
Only if you are ESL. It's perfectly clear from the context that they are talking about a similar process of manufacture, not that they are genetically identical.
>FF7
>Perfectly Clear
I understood it just fine back in 1997 when i was 14. so yeah, you must be esl.
You're the reader, not the writer.
Your skills of discernment aren't a credit to them.
What they wrote:
"Sephiroth learned he was created 5 years ago"
What they meant:
"5 years ago, Sephiroth learned he was created"
You do not use clone, especially in the context of a life form, unless you are suggesting they are genetically identical.
You do not call two brothers clones. You do not call a son and a father clones, you do not call two random humans clones for being born of human mothers, and you do not call a dog and a monkey clones because they were both born of a mammalian reproductive process. You might call identical twins clones, because, drumroll, they have the same genetic code. You'd more likely call the offspring of one of those lizards that can reproduce asexually a clone, because it's a replica of the "parent", produced later, with identical genetic information.
The only reason you have to puzzle it out from context is because they used the word incorrectly, and given how much other weird shit happens in this game, "I created a Sephiroth clone, that clone was you" is not leaning towards "I made you in a process similar to Sephiroth", it leans towards "I made a clone of Sephiroth".
If they wanted to insist on the word, they still could have disambiguated by saying something like "A clone of the Sephiroth project, that produced you". That's a really fricking weird way of saying it, but frick it, Hojo's a weird ass dude, you could get away with it.
A normal, non fricked up 90's translation way of saying it would be "I repeated the process to create Sephiroth, which produced you".
HOWEVER Even this is fricking pointless because Cloud and Sephiroth did not recieve the same procedure. At all.
Sephiroth had Jenova Cells present at his conception and fetal development. Cloud got stuck with Jenova cells a few years ago, MASSIVE fricking difference.
It's like saying your dad cumming on you is the same if he did it that time he was fricking your mom, came, and the sperm and egg that became you got coated in his jizz, and if he did it if he captured you when you were like, fukkin, I dunno, 17, and jerked off on your face. Very fricking different processes.
It's clone in a digital sense. Master - Slave.
Unfortunately Hojo is a biologist, not compsci.
cope more, esl.
But thats not what people assume when they first see the term "Clone" They assume a complete genetic twin as thats what they've been taught in other sci-fi
What're the other theories that's still going after all these years?
- Did Cloud think he was Zack?
- Does humanity go extinct in the ending
- Is the game a timeloop?
- Did Sephiroth do this?
>-Did Cloud think he was Zack?
No, but he thought he lived Zack's life that he experienced. He still called himself Cloud, and still believed certain Cloud things, and didn't believe certain things Zack knew or did that Cloud didn't directly see, like dating Aerith. He just thought he was the badass action hero Zack was, instead of the dude in the blue jumpsuit with a gun less dangerous than his nightstick.
>- Does humanity go extinct in the ending
No, but it abandons Midgar. At Red Xlll's rate of aging, it can't be more than roughly 400 years, and is probably no more than 200 years, and unless you expose the planet to enough "frick you" to also kill Red Xlll, humanity can't really be driven extinct that fast. They're fricking wienerroaches and will live in shacks made of shit about theirndead children out of pure spite. Also Vincent might not even have a lifespan anymore. Vincent is fricking weird.
>- Is the game a timeloop?
No, that's moronic, unless it's on such an extended scale that it's as pointless a question as "Did the christian god create this world?".
>- Did Sephiroth do this?
Without specifying what "this" is, the best I can guess is you mean "everything" in which case the answer is "No, Hojo did it. Hojo is The Wizard that Did It in this story" and the only answer you get as to why is "He's Hojo, he doesn't have to explain shit, also he's a weird, weird dude".
Otherwise, read the thread to see what a hornet's nest that question is.
I still just think this game is just a shameless ripoff of Chrono Trigger and Dragon Quest 4, with a sprinkling of SMT on top for setting, with lackluster, half-baked mechanics beneath the hood.
>and Dragon Quest 4,
Here's your Sephiroth, bro
> shameless ripoff of Chrono Trigger and Dragon Quest 4, with a sprinkling of SMT on top for setting
You say shameless ripoff and then cite 3 very different games while not pointing at any specific elements that are lifted from any of them. Regarding Chrono Trigger and DQ, those are square games. It makes sense that Square would lift from their experience from previous games to improve their current ones. Game companies do it all the time. It is not necessarily bad. And regarding SMT, you'd better be ready to disregard the vast majority of genre fiction if you think them borrowing the same setting is enough to condemn them as ripoffs.
The original ff7 has many flaws. It's story has many flaws, but your criticism is an awful one that doesn't actually address any of it's real flaws.
>and didn't believe certain things Zack knew
Unrelated, but 7r confirmed Cloud knows something he shouldn't know due to Jenova's influence. So the idea that Cloud has some of Zack's memories isn't far-fetched.
Why doesn't Cloud know Aeris or Zack's parent, Turks etc? It is unrelated. He just wants to be a bad-ass soldier not some playboy.
Then we're is the aeris trigger so I can bring back best girl???
Cait Sith stole it
Just wanted to chime in and say this post is good and this poster should give more takes
>Vincent is Sephiroth's Father
>Cloud and Tifa did the nasty under the Highwind
is Sephiroth's Father
I'm pretty sure Hojo was the father.
Vincent just got literally cucked so hard that he took responsibility for it.
I know.
The theory relies on AC's visuals which are superfluous at best: Long hair, bishiboy smooth skin, so the theory doesn't hold much water. Tifa could be Vincent's long lost sister if that were the case.
There's also the idea of Lucrecia sleeping with someone like Hojo that doesn't sit right with people, but I like to think it was more of a platonic/business/scientific relationship with a bit of emotional manipulation. Also isn't cuckoldry a well established troupe/fetish in Jap media, even before FF7 or am I just perverted?
Should've went a step further: Is it canon? :^)
>I like to think it was more of a platonic/business/scientific relationship
I always figured it was in vitro fertilization or something, mostly because the idea of introducing Jenova into the fertilization process sounds more complicated than a penis can handle.
That and as Hojo was probably already at least semi-aware of how much of a bad idea getting Jenova cooties on something he actually liked was, so probably didn't want to cross that bridge just yet.
At the very least, Hojo being an ordinary pervert is on the table, as his posse of beach babes suggests. No asexual mad scientist here.
>vitro fertilization
Hey that works too. It's more up Hojo's ally since he gets off on science. Or even both.
>Cloud and Tifa did the nasty under the Highwind
And everyone watched.
>redxiii and yuffie did the sex when they went to the "special place to meet her"
>Cid crashed into kalm after 40 days when the holy deactivated after everyone died
People argue it because the more interesting answer isn't canon. The idea that Sephiroth and Jenova merged is a terrifying prospect. A cosmic horror and an edgelord as one being?
The real canon seems to be Sephiroth learned to control Jenova and their cells. Which is absolutely weak writing, it makes no sense in the context of the story for him to gain this ability. It does make more sense as some rational thought was put into the events of the game, so Jenova couldn't do those things.
Where was I? Oh yes, I was leading into the Norther Crater. Adjacent to the City of the Ancients.
What WAS there?
The Crater is where they found Jenova.
And yeah, the writing around this detail is poorly written.
Frozen in Ice, or, in a 2000 year old rock layer.
Permafrost maybe?
The details about Jenova are cryptic. "The Calamity from the Sky"
But it paints the image that Jenova fell to the planet with a meteor.
A meteor...that the ancients maybe summoned? Or did the ancients summon it to kill Jenova?
In the Norther Crater are the WEAPONS. It's implied the Planet Created the WEAPONS to deal with Jenova.
-OR- the if the Planet was hurting and doesn't have enough "juice" the WEAPONs go stomp around and replenish the lifestream.
So again, what was at the Norther Crater...before it was a crater?
The lifestream seems to flow to it. Because Sephiroth and Jenova's head end up in the Norther Crater after falling into the lifestream, all the way over in Mt.Nibel.
In the temple it's shown they did infact summon meteor themselves.
Sephiroth's goal was basically to unite Jenova, because Jenova drove him insane
So Jenova
Cloud/Z mentions he was a great guy until the mansion incident
that's because Sephiroth was a charismatic psychopath until he decided the charismatic part was a waste of time
he is 100% evil
>that's because Sephiroth was a charismatic psychopath until he decided the charismatic part was a waste of time
Yeah exactly. Up until that point he had been a part of the Shinra system. Socially outcast, but he trained in SOLDIER and his abilities made him elite and celebrated. He clearly harbored major negative feelings toward Hojo (derision, especially). He went along with the system because that's what he knew. After discovering his connection to Jenova, he discovered a higher purpose to give meaning to his life.
>Actually, given how left field Sephiroth's immediate and all consuming desire to destroy the planet comes from
It's not out of left field. Of course the dramatic shift is of course partially a result of Jenova's influence, but Sephiroth was fricked in the head already because his life is a science experiment of Hojo's. One thing made absolutely clear in the flashback is that Sephiroth hates Hojo. Despite all his amazing powers, he doesn't have a traditional father's love and guidance. Hojo is a freak who creates freaks. Sephiroth has a gaping nihilistic hole in is soul where normal humanity should be due to these daddy issues.
So in the mansion he reads all that shit about Jenova and the Cetra in the mansion, and his ego seizes on it as an explanation for who he is. He no longer has to feel like he's some freak science experiment, celebrated by media but in reality an outcast from normal humanity. He now has reason to firmly believe he is above humanity and it's his personal destiny to wipe them out for his mother's sake. That derision aimed at Hojo is now projected onto the whole of humanity.
>its definitely implying that Jenova is in control but Sephiroth thinks he's in control.
The real key is that it DOES NOT MATTER. The resulting antagonism comes from BOTH.
>Jenova
>Cloud/Z mentions he was a great guy until the mansion incident
For you
>Cloud/Z mentions he was a great guy until the mansion incident
They look up to him, Tifa points out when he comes to Nibelheim while he seems nice she can't help but feel his actions are cold. In other words Sepheiroth was just acting how he thought he should, inside he was always a sociopath.
also
>is she sentient
technically her body was killed, it was her regenerative powers that were controlling things, although when Seph runs off with her head who really knows
Anyone with common sense would say its jenova and that every game after that has been a retcon.
It's pretty obvious, Jenova wasn't controlling anyone.
Angeal and Genesis have Jenova Cells. Produced the same way Sephiroth was. BUT Sephiroth was an anomaly in that he assimilate Jenova Cells while in the womb and became a hybrid.
Angeal and Genesis experienced cellular degeneration after a while. So Shinra scrapped the J-project and started using Sephiroth's cells in SOLIDERS, make Sephiroth the perfect commander. Those were the Sephiroth Clones.
Once Hojo came on board, he was researching the Jenova Reunion Theory.
Don't ask me where their stock of Sephiroth Cells came from. Since Cloud dropped Sephiroth into the lifestream, they no longer had a body.
Hojo probably has a vat of cum he collected from a teenage Sephiroth.
And then he dump Zack and Cloud in those vats. Hojo must have done something more to them.
Cloud got Sneed Poisoning. Zack was fine because he was from Gongaga.
They escaped and made a road trip back to Midgard. (Wait-- how did they cross the ocean? They must have took a boat at some point.)
They never had the urge to fly north for a reunion. Sephiroth doesn't start getting into Cloud's head until 5 years later.
See, that's relying on expanded media, though, and it's pretty apparent to anyone that Final Fantasy 7, and anything made after sharing the name have very different interpretations of events.
If you like it, cool shit, you do you bud, but the story of, say, Crises Core or Advent Children is not the same story as base Final Fantasy 7.
>UH, BUT AKCHYUALLY THAT WAS A RETCON
eat shit cucklord, you can't prove it without breaking into SE headquarters and cracking open their binders and it's still canon
You have to have mental illness to not realize its a retcon after playing the original.
Jesus christ, theres not even any reason to accept it when the original literally spells it out for you.
That's just Jenova sucking Seph's dick and saying everyone else isn't good enough
Cloud's real name is Beacause? What is that? Roman? Greek?
>being an unironic grammar warrior
The most cringe shit you can ever be
Mental illness
Next you’re gonna tell me this is actually sephiroth
True story, Sephiroth the man could actually phase through solid objects and fly all along.
Smash Bros lets him do both, and that's probably his most important and recent appearance.
No most if not all lines are jenova herself. And most of what cloud sees is a hallucination
Okay if everyone is so convinced that the bad translation is the reason english players are “confused” then I want to hear from one of the almighty japgays what was being said in this scene in the original script, especially the part where “jenova” calls cloud a puppet
http://kujatas.com/learn-japanese-from-final-fantasy-7/chapter?number=28
And use Google Translate!
Wheres the line im not reading all this and a quick search of any keywords that might lead to the scene is not amounting to anything
If you're too moronic to ctrl + f then you're a lost cause.
Disregard that I suck wieners. Linked the wrong one. I will continue to kill myself now.
http://kujatas.com/learn-japanese-from-final-fantasy-7/chapter?number=29
Cloud: Everyone, listen to me. I am Cloud. Ex-SOLIDER. Born in Nibelheim. I came to settle up with Sephiroth.
Barret: “What're ya tryin' to say?”
Tifa: “…What's going on?”
RedXIII: “…Hmm?”
Cid: I've heard that before
Cait Sith: “Why're you being so formal? Is something wrong?”
Vincent: "...You're right. "
>Cute Trap Cloud
Holy shit want to fill him with my cum so baaaad.
They don't really say anything. The understanding is that Sephiroth is treating Cloud as a tool.
You know the express "Be a good boy and do what you're told"
Or how you praise a dog "Who's a good boy?! You are! Yes!"
Well, when Cloud hands over the Black Materia, Sephiroth tells him. "You're a good boy."
It's one of those lines that -without voice acting- you could read different ways.
Like he's not praising his obedience. But commenting on his body.
which is ridiculous and nobody has ever interpreted it that way.
not once
>it's still canon
It's cannon to shitty games like Crisis Core and, fricking what, Dirge of Cerberus?
What value is there in being canon to a shitty sequel prequel frickuel? Be canon to the only thing that was good.
those games are fun anon
CLEARLY Jenova was meant to be a race of dopplegangers, seen in FF2. The Reunion ability wasn't just pulling itself together, but an attraction to the person it was duplicating.
The only way to stop it is with the black mask.
ITT. People conveniently leaving out the entirety of Sephi's spiels at the Temple of the Ancients
The only thing that confused me as a kid was the "clone" line Hojo used when comparing Cloud and Sephiroth in a metaphorical/scientific sense and thinking he meant a LITERAL clone of Sephiroth.
>jenova DELIBERATELY kills aeris after DELIBERATELY trying to make Cloud kill Aeris himself
If Jenova can’t think and acts purely on instinct please explain how it did this and also disguised itself to corrupt unsuspecting cetra?
If your explanation is: “Sephiroth was the one that actually did it controlling jenovas parts” then tell me in what part of the game its explained that sephiroth was controlling jenovas limbs, also tell me how sephiroth controlled past jenova remotely to frick up cetra.
Sephiroth literally controls all Jenova Cells telepathically. They are all an extension to his body. Jenova and the Clones assume his form when he's directly controlling them like a player avatar in a video game. So yes, Sephiroth killed Aerith.
No he has like 2 lines in the entire game then he's possessed by jenova
It was JENOVA all along.
but that's just a theory, a GAY theory
Why is this dumb ass theory still going? If Jenova was sentient, it would force Cloud to kill Aeris the first time he meets her.
Also, Jenova's cells probably works the same way it works on Cloud. It only feed victims the ideas but cannot force. Cloud always wanted to be a badass soldier, Sephiroth always wanted to be "special" being, the cells just x100 their desires.
>it would force Cloud to kill Aeris the first time he meets her.
No Aerith = No Black Materia, though. Only an Ancient can crack that vault.
And it literally tries to make Cloud kill her IMMEDIATELY after that, to hilariously poor, bruised shin results, then again the next time he sees her after that, and then Jenova just fricking does it itself because forcing Cloud to do it clearly isn't working.
As SOON as Jenova has the Black Materia, the only thing it fricking does is try to kill Aerith, and force any and all of its tools to try, at any cost.
Jenova does not wait until a convenient moment to take the Black Materia either.
It does it immediately. Then immediately starts trying to get Aerith killed.
>powerful alien god that crashed onto the planet, poisoned everything it touched with itself and ended up being used by a god-tier sword user to defeat any enemy they faced
Jenova is the Sealed God of the Scarlet Rot, and Sephiroth is her Malenia.
>very last battle is Cloud using Omnislash on Sephiroth's will in the lifestream
>jEnOvA Is iN CoNtRoL duuuuurrrrr
pray for lil anon, he's moronic
>Using Omnislash in the last battle
>Not letting Sephiroth attack you, then countering him and killing him in a single stroke, showing he was never hot shit at all
Pathetic
>Nomura said he designed Cloud & Sephiroth based off Kojiro & Musashi's rivalry
>Anon: "NOOO Jenova is in control"
>Nomura
>anon
>Donald Trump
>retcons
You have not provided a single fact supporting that claim that comes from the game itself
Well because you're moronic and obviously won't listen to reason, why put any effort into it instead of just shitting on you?
>make up headcanon about “sephiroths lingering will” because it makes it fit in with all the retcons
>ad hominem when people call you out on your shit
Glad you are finally admitting you are wrong, even if its not in the most graceful of ways.
I'm not wrong you're just broken and irrational
>even the hooded figures following sephiroth are saying "The Great Sephiroth, Reunion" not "Jenova"
>NOOOOO IT'S HECKIN JENOVA NOOO
>THIS THING I AM FOLLOWING AROUND LOOKS EXACTLY LIKE SEPHIROTH BUT IT TRANSFORMED INTO A FRICKING WEIRD LIMB/ORGAN WHAT THE FRICK????
Common sense anon, do you have it?
who is they/them quoting?
If Jenova is in charge, then why is Sephiroth's name still used if she's the one speaking?
If Jenova's in charge, then why were all the clones and Jenova heading to North Crater?
Checkmate, atheists.
Jenova is just tricking all of them. Tricking you. You bought it.
>One-winged Angel lyrics chant and talk about Sephiroth
>Jenovagays: "Jenova's was the mastermind!"
This is something I just don't understand with those being of the opinion that this was all Jenova acting itself. In every single other instance of the series in which some actor directly puppeteered another being for its purposes, it is clearly stated with no ambiguity whatsoever. All evidence points to either Sephiroth having subsumed Jenova's will, or being a separate but still threatening presence. There is no way you can reasonably analyze the plot and conclude that Sephiroth was just manipulated by Jenova. In my opinion it's not even ultimately a good plot if that were the case. Part of what makes Jenova so compelling is that it is entirely alien. Its motives are either unknown or unknowable, along with its origin. We don't ask why a virus does what it does, it just does.
It's beacause (heh) 7 has one of the more complex/convoluted/in-depth sci-fi concepts/elements in the series, so it's easy to overlook certain details and especially over-analyze them in situations like
suggests despite what's already shown and spoonfed to the player. The villain's motive side of things isn't that deep. The gist is: JoJo's Bizarre Adventure - Staring: Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain and The Thing
Jenovagays should read AJIN if they haven't already because it delves a little into those very same concepts used as supposed evidence of Jenova being the big bad.
Anyways, I blame the writing more than the translation, since JRPGs and Jap writing in particular, just love info dumping the audience like a shounen anime during critical points in the story and it gets even worse when it's philosophical concepts IE.) Xenogears, MGS
But like any piece of art out there, several viewings can give you a better understanding and insight you didn't pick up on the first time.
Because they don't know enough about it until they hit the icicle inn.
The north crater is where she has her last stand and her head and half of her body is still there it's also the activation point for black materia
Checkmate godgays
>25 year old game
>people still don't understand that jenova and sephiroth were one in the same
So, here's a brainlet question. Maybe it's obvious and I just forgot.
Where was the head when it was in Shinra HQ? I think the head was there when Sephiroth found her in Nibelheim, where did it go between then?
Huh.
That image reminds me.
I think that kinda rectangular hole below the breasts, with the cord jammed into it is always there. I know for a fact it's there on the last form, and empty.
Is it supposed to be a mouth with titty eyes?
It's a vein of the heart. Looking at other material of the body it's safe to assume Shinra scientists patched it up slightly. Thinking of it now, Jenova's design is really fricking eerie.
It's either using an amalgamation of the hosts organs morphing outside of the body or the virus assimilating into them as it's OWN being, existing outside the body while still being connected to it like a feeding tube.
I thought sephiroth fell into the lifestream with jenovas head
He does indeed. He cut off her head to take her with him, assumedly because he couldn't carry her entire body after being wounded by Cloud.
So tell me how the FRICK people keep thinking that someone that literally died was in control of a disembodied sentient parasite that keeps working with its limbs all over the place.
Did it never occur to anyone that maybe the sephiroth clones where headed towards jenovas head where the brain is?
His will didn't disintegrate into the lifestream
Well, because it is assumed he did not truly die but was instead crystallized, and projecting his will using Jenova's influence. You have to admit it is bizarre that Jenova would use his form and speak using his fractured belief system even after he has died.
Why is it odd? Its literally the only thing jenova could see at the time and he is powerful.
>You have to admit it is bizarre that Jenova would use his form and speak using his fractured belief system even after he has died.
It seems likely that Jenova doesn't only use the bodies of its hosts, but that it keeps their minds more or less intact and just influences them into doing what it wants.
More than that, Sephiroth apparently lost his legs from the injury.
It's kinda hard to notice from the PS1 CG animation, but where his legs should be, there's nothing.
That's not even Sephiroth's entire corpse, Cloud cut the fricker in half.
That's also why the Safer Sephiroth transformation looks the way it does, the ball of wings is replacing his severed legs, and Bizarro Sephiroth does something similar.
Wait.
At this point, Sephiroth was operating under the assumption Jenova was an Ancient, right?
He didn't learn she was something else until later, this is moments after he called Cloud/Zack a traitor for their ancestors not helping his people defend the planet. Right?
So, at this point, Sephiroth himself wouldn't know that cutting off the head is good for anything, besides carrying around a severed head, right?
So, why does he cut off the head, of his believed "normal" Cetra mother, which wouldn't have any particular effect, besides mutilating his mother's corpse?
Jenova was aware at the time of the Reunion theory, so he was already aware of Jenova's qualities, even if at the time he believed she was a Cetra. He likely took the head because he was too weak to take the rest of the body, and knew that it would reconstitute itself over time by heading to its origin. He likely believed, like Shinra at the time, that the Reunion would lead to the Promised Land.
It's jenova/infalna brainlet
there's no evidence that jenova can do anything with someone whose already dead
Sephiroth
sephiroth never dies until cloud kills him at the north crater
I remember loving AC when I was a teenager. The plot was fricking moronic but I didn't give a shit, we got to see Cloud swing around a new Buster Sword. This movie is incomprehensibly awful but I still occasionally watch it. Also the ending credits song is stupendous and I think about Cloud just driving around the countryside on Fenrir all the time.
Also Cloud is stupidly emo for no reason even though at the end of 7 he's a major positive force and drive. But teenage me loved his edge.
This is really the thing that makes me hate the extended FF7 shit so goddamn much.
The entire point of Cloud's arc was dropping the cool, aloof act (which was NEVER that broody even at its worst), to be a more honest, genuine, and up front person.
He went from a wannabe cool ass dork, to just a good guy.
It's not limited to just Cloud. That was egregious enough, but the total slaughtering of Sephiroth's character is what turned me sour to the entire Compilation. I watched Advent Children and liked it at the time, it was a good cap off even if it was incomprehensible and fricked the plot and characters' behavior. But Sephiroth suffered the most, it was right when the crazed bishoujo villain archetype was hitting its stride, and Square took that shit and ran with it at full force. We went from a troubled soldier turned megalomaniac to a devious, smirking fricking butthole whose only purpose seems to ride Cloud's dick.
Sephiroth never gave a flying frick about Cloud, he registered him about as much as a carpenter thinks of a specific nail in his drawer. Out of everything it is the single greatest reason that I will never give a flying frick about the series going forward. I can tolerate a lot of shit. Insert shitty over-the-top SOLDIERs like Roche, throw all the random moronic time ghosts and gay dance scenes you want. But fricking with the antagonist's entire characterization and turning him from a cold calculating sociopath into a jilted homosexual is a bridge too far for me. Just thinking of that shit irritates the frick out of me.
>irritates the frick out of me
Naturally. Anything that brings your competency into question would. That's why it's so easy to get under an asperger's skin. They're so self absorbed - out of now where they start talking about themselves. Like, dude, nobody was even looking at you.
I don't know how much lithium you're on but it's not enough
None of this answers the most important question.
Why did Sephiroth/Jenova kill the Midgar Zolom? It only wanted a boop on the snoot.
Because cloud isn't zack and midgar zolom would have killed aeris who jenova needs to open the city
Time to admit OG is a mess with lot of inconsistencies. Jenova is just a poorly defined concept.
Maybe 7R will clear this up but something tells me people ITT will just ignore it anyway.
Not really, most people just have their own headcanon, have trouble paying attention, are ESLs or all of the above
But it might be hard to keep track of what happens after thousands of random battles or if you take breaks, I'll give you that
My Hebrew is a little rusty, but doesn't Sefirot mean, like, Avatar of Consciousness or something?
Sphere. The Sefirot is a tree with these 10 attributes of God. Spheres of influence, you might say.
Tifa is named after Tiferet, the attribute of Beauty, or Light.
Besides each sphere having a name, they also correspond to the 7 heavens.
Tiferet corresponding to "Sol", the sun, which was one of the 7 heavens.
The Sphere of Tifa connects to all the other Spheres, except Malkuth "the kingdom" or "Earth" or "Aeirth"
Starting at the bottom, Earth, you move up the heavens. Luna, Mercury, Venus, Sol, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the firmament (the fixed stars), and beyond that is Endless Light.
Schizo theory. Tifaret was when she was siblings with Sephiroth. Aka early development. None of what you said matters to the final game
He is simply explaining the basis of the naming, nothing with regards to final character behaviors. None of this is schizo, it's like explaining to someone what the Dead Sea Scrolls are in Evangelion.
>7 heavens
Well, that explains the bara name.
>redxiii and yuffie did the sex when they went to the "special place to meet her
???
I don't remember this, is that why there's this bizarre Yuffie/Red XIII crack pairing aming some of the fanbase?
I think what doesn't help with all the confusion regarding not only this but other things, and why a lot of stuff about 7 is debated to this day is just how vague the story is told. A lot of it is told either through extra content (Such as major elaboration on Jenova, and some others like Lucrecia) or through extra scenes like the Gast tapes and the Zack scenes in Nibelheim Manor in Disc 3. It gives you no indication to go there. You have to either learn through a guide or somehow stumble upon it on a whim. Thats the only way to learn about Zack and Cloud's relationship too, and its hidden and locked away.
Its not a well told story. It just seems like it from all the extra information we've collected through the year from lore dumps and guides and spin off content. But the FF7 game itself is told poorly.
I can only imagine the impossible task of cramming something that vaguely works in English into a tiny text box where originally a few Kanji expressed way more thought than is possible with English text and all of that with about 3 weeks to do it. If you go through the text script of a recent fan translation and compare it to the English localization that we got you'll see that every little omission and compromise throughout the game adds up to create quite the shitshow. I get it. But it is what it is. What we got was like having a moron summarize the game for us.
Oh the English translation is a fricking mess. Especially the PS1 version since every subsequent version they've fixed up all the typos and there's a lot of typos. Either the translation was done hastily or they didn't get a good translator.
"This guy are sick"
"Off course!"
"Beacause.."
"Enegy"
And if their translation had this many spelling errors its also bound to have sentence structure errors, not using the correct words, not expressing the original intent of the sentence well. E.g. "Sephiroth Clones" when they're not clones. Leading to a lot of the confusion seen to this day.
Yeah, "rushed" is an understatement. It came out later that it was done in less than a month by one guy. Its amazing how badly the localization was given how hard they advertised this game in the West. This was the break out hit for the Western market and its in bad Engrish.
Not Final Fantasy, but an example of how this can rear up is one of my favorite examples of poor translation in Fire Emblem 7.
Nergal, the main villain, has a source of power, I believe in the original Japanese, it's directly "Aegir", while the English translated it as Quintessence. Weird, but fine.
Except at one point, someone fricked up one of his lines, and so instead of Quintessence, they apparently re-translated it for that sentence as "Force", which in the context of the line "I'll generate a tremendous amount of force in one blow!" makes it sound like he's charging an attack or something, instead of what he's actually talking about, killing a bunch of people.
Later on, their translation creates a frickup, too, since he also has a dead wife, named Aenir. Nergal's suffering a bit of insanity, so has forgotten her, but his death quote was originally "Ae...ir?", implying that at some point he had crossed the wires between his power source and wife, which is why he was so obsessed with the stuff.
Because that spelling allusion could no longer be made, they just slapped "Quintessence...?" As his death quote and called it a day.
Obviously, different projects have different teams and face different challenges, but Fire Emblem 7 just happens to have a really well documented and analyzed translation, with all KINDS of weird frickups that really reveal a lot of what can go wrong.
Fire Emblem 7 is also only moderately noted for shit translation, that was probably most of the most egregious examples right there. Other smaller examples include mixing up the subject and object of sentences, misattributing thibgs to the wrong subject, or just ordering things in ways that lead to incorrect conclusions. Fire Emblem 7 is also a massively simpler game in terms of concept, with a massively smaller script, and was made fricking what, 5 years later? And that's an important 5 years, too, that's the jump from fricking 4Kids to Toonami.
>Other smaller examples include
Actually, a really interesting one I just remembered, and one that is especially important to a game with so many lines of writing, tons of spots for interjections and party member input, and tons of character movement, gestures, ect baked into the scenes.
One line in Fire Emblem got absolutely butchered in meaning because the writer assumed the line was talking about the same subject as the last line.
Unfortunately, the last line was in an entirely different scene, so, iirc, they ended the last line talking about a sword, and started the next talking about crossing a border, but omitted the subject because it was represented by characters moving around as the basis of the comment. But the translation got royally fricked because the translator (understandably) got mindfricked over what the frick the game was talking about crossing boarders on swords, and tried to make something work.
I want you to just imagine going through a script, there's a line from, fukkin, Cloud, then a comment from Cait Sith, then Cloud jumps over somewhere, and comments on the movement, remembering in Japanese that the fact he jumped as a subject would probably be omitted.
That's a goddamn nightmare scenario.
oh wow, some typos! that must mean the whole translation is wrong!
pic related is essentially your entire argument. also, if you're still hung up on the definition of "clone" you are an esl.
Stray typos are one thing, but more egregious ones indicate a lack of in-depth proofreading, which itself means you can be damn near certain nobody went back to check translations.
Translation mistakes happen, it's not even an issue of competence, and Japanese is a fricking difficult language to translate with conventions and quirks that lend itself particularly to mistakes. Japanese translations NEED to be proofread, and the existence of typos like those suggest it was not.
It's not the typos themselves you dingleberry, it's the evidence they provide into the production in this aspect of the game, and what vital, but slow and thus expensive steps may have been skipped.
For the scene in question which is about the only thing we have to go for, even if there are typos, the context in the translation isn’t wrong.
Jenova is attempting to make cloud kill aerith and fails then kills her herself. This isn’t done by sephiroth snd the game even points this out by shifting to the black screen with jenovas text box
It's been a while since I played Crisis Core.
But as I recall Shinra was undergoing some serious downsizing and restructuring.
All the competent people were leaving and being replaced by morons, or mad scientists.
Sephiroth had been raised a solider. Following orders is all he knew. In CC, they were taking his purpose away from him. On top of that, he found out he was a failed experiment.
I wish we got a good remake that told the original story again, but better, and clearer, and with a good translation.
that would be preferable to a sequel full of plotholes to a game full of plotholes. I don't think SE are interested in fixing any mistakes, just adding huge amounts of new ones.
>itt people that literally cannot grasp the difference between se retconned this its not a part of the original story and start to quote things that happened in later games or compilation material
We’re not trying to say sephiroth isn’t the canon influencer in the power struggle between him and jenova what is trying to be said is that originally sephiroth was just a fricking puppet for jenova and jenova was behind it all.
That's largely what the debate boils down to.
Extended universe material changed a lot of the basic narrative, and base FF 7's writing is just ambiguous enough to not completely rule out most of those changes, despite suggesting very heavily that they are not the case.
This largely comes down to people that played and comprehended FF7, versus people who either were exposed first to Advent Children, Crises Core, or Kingdom Hearts or something, or else didn't pay attention to FF7 when they played it first, and came back with those titles retcons of the story more fresh.
People use events, details, and so on introduced in later titles to justify weak arguments that can technically be made about the original.
However, it's also neat because different people notice and remember different details about the game; I always come away from discussions like these with more knowledge about the game and its implied story, so it's worth it.
No I'm saying that's wrong and have only ever played the original game.
Without spouting headcanons explain why.
Because why wait 27 years to sudden take control of Sephiroth at the very moment he learns what Jenova is.
It doesn't make sense.
One of two reasons.
First, Jenova is perfectly happy, for ths most part, to let people believe everything is normal.
Cloud didn't know he was being summoned to the north, he felt like it was something he wanted.
Second, Sephiroth was genuinely pretty shaken by what he learned. It was an outside source telling him that all his suspicions, and paranoia, and things he thought he might be a freak for thinking were right. Sephiroth was in a state where all of his wildest beliefs had been proven true, and so was uniquely vulnerable to having "his" mind suddenly come up with a bunch of absolutely insane, hard to slip into passive, reasonable objective goals, and thinking they were great ideas. He'd just learned he really was different, really was better than everyone, and finally had something of his origin to not only be proud and a part of, but to feel righteous fury over. The fact that any actual facts were buried under layers of mistakes, misinformation, and misconceptions didn't matter, because is was about the state it put him in, where anything he did, or thought, or felt was valid, and open to being taken to any extreme. Because he was a fricking Ancient, and the world was his to inherit and do what he pleased with.
It is also conceivable that proximity to Jenova's main body made him easier to influence. After all, Sephiroth/Jenova was never able to take direct control over Cloud unless it was nearby. Otherwise it had to resort to subtly manipulating him into going north.
Am I just a loon, or would a whole extra disc of gameplay, just getting around the world to stop more and more Weapons from tearing the world multiple new buttholes have been fun as frick.
The Weapons are my favorite part of this game, and there being frightening numbers of the frickers woukd have made things feel so much more doomsday-ey at the end.
I feel for the original Japanese players, that were cucked by only getting to fight Diamond and Omega.
Speaking of Weapon.
The party doesn't actually kill Diamond Weapon, do they? If my memory serves, they don't even really hurt it, it just kinda wanders off, then gets capped by the cannon as it kills Rufus.
If the party can't even really hurt Diamond Weapon, but can kill Sephiroth... does that mean Diamond Weapon > Sephiroth?
I'm pretty sure all the weapons are both in gameplay and in lore stronger than Sephiroth and Jenova, but they can't find either due to the frickery going on at the northern crater. Though I'm not sure if they technically could stop Jenova since it's possible Jenova could simply infect and assimilate them if they're biological and not a construct similar to a golem.
i always assumed it was both.
jenova infusion just made sephy a little more cray cray then his mindbreak already did.
I want to understand how someone comes to the conclusion that barret is worse than Yuffie and Red XIII of all fricking characters
Yuffie has the best ultimate weapon in the game that make Emerald and Ruby weapon dramatically easier
The easiest way to beat the weapons is abusing something like angermax or omnislash tho
Yuffies ultimate weapon is the easiest to use right out of the box but it is not the best ultimate weapon by any means.
Red XIII’s weapon is good but his limits are garbage.
Barret’s ultimate weapon is ironically the best in the game longterm and short term by just playing normally and he has the strongest multi-hit LB in the game bar none.
I can agree with the list but barret needs to be in toppest tier and I would knock red xiii down a tier as well.
No fricking clue why cait sith is anywhere but the bottom tier given his limit breaks.
Aeris only problem is being temporary, otherwise her limits are fricking downright broken support wise so if you wanna go with the theoretical, she also belongs in the toppest tier.
Cait Sith's limits aren't as bad as people like to meme.
Dice scales with level, bypasses most damage resistances, immunities, or other frickery, and charges ridiculously fast for how much damage it can pump out once Cait starts reaching level 40 or 50. It dips at the very end of the game, but it's actually one of the most consistent limits for most of it. Cait's basic stats are among the best in the game, he's absurdly durable both physically and magically, and is probably the best caster once Aerith goes. The main things holding him back are his utterly unremarkable weapon availability, his poor showing at the very end of the game, and his low basic attack damage.
Red Xlll is almost entirely because of the Seraph Comb. The Seraph Comb is an absurdly strong weapon when you get it. Even besides that, Red has some of the best weapon availability at every single point in the game, often getting access to weapons sets early. His stats are very well distributed, and his limits are actually very good for the majority of the game. But if it weren't for the Seraph Comb, he'd be between Barret and Cait.
Barret is extremely good late game, but suffers during the midgame. His mid limits aren't very good, and the entire middle of the game seems determined to give him sub-par weapons that deny his long range.
Yuffie is held back from top tier by her frailty, which is actually bad enough to be a major problem. That said, her offence is unparalleled for most of the game besides early into Red's Seraph Comb ownership, her best weapons come online earlier than anyone else's.
Aerith's highest tier limits are great, but until she gets those, her limits are actually pretty bad. Her physical offense is pitifully low. However, she's saved from "don't bother" tier by how handy Healing Wind is early on, and by her huge materia capacity weapon options. If she didn't die, then I agree, she'd probably be top, or sharing a tier with Yuffie.
So your analysis is basically things that literally don’t fricking matter. It leads me to believe that you simply have high bias. Like seriously how the frick do you rate a character over their usefulness mid game when, not only that spikes wildly but also literally doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things.
Because a character's performance over an entire game and helping you reach the end should matter more than the last 1% of it or hypothetical optimized theorycraft that the game never asks for, especially since theoretically, rigging Cait Sith's Slots is always the strongest option once available.
Thats highly variable though. You’re basing red xiii’s usefulness of a single item he gets around the middle of the game that you upgrade from.
Furthermore you spend more time in the endgame than you do in the actual game and its what us actually challenging compared to the mid game you’re trying to push.
Moreover you use yuffies ultimate weapon to account for her spot but ignore things like limits and ultimate weapons of the other characters. Yuffie and nanaki doesn’t even get a good limit break until barret gets angermax which is better anyway and I am not even sure why you completely omit cids highwind.
Tifa is the best glass cannon available for a good chunk of the game thanks to her 4x damage at low hp weapon.
>Aeris
>shit tier
b***h you what.
Cloud has high stats in every field and great weapons and limits so hes an easy S. Cid should be right beside yuffie. swap cait sith with tifa. and put Aeris in S tier as well because her limits and magic stat are so good its broken. no brainer she isnt in disc 2 or 3 cause this already easy game would be way too easy
Canonically yes, Sephiroth's will is stronger than Jenova's and thus she is doing his bidding and not the other way around.
There was only one (1) character in ff7 who was unconsciously drawn to Mt. Nibel when their mother died.
Just saying...
Hmm. What reason did she have to move to Midgard?
Mt. Nibel was supposed to be the "promised land" of Nibelheim people. ff7 development was a mess and they cut it.
.
Source
>FROM FINAL FANTASY ULTIMANIA ARCHIVE VOLUME 2.
It's explained that after final battle, they want to visit to the other side of the mountain. Where the dead people live (kinda lifestream-ish don't you think?)
the line is cut from the final version obviously.
lol. Rocket Launch Pad Area = The Promise Land
The Promise Land is just a spiritual place. Everyone has different definition.
Also I like this early script more, pretty straight forward. The final script make little sense and just being vague for the sake of it.
>the music track that plays when tifa tries to cross the mountain pass is called On the Other Side of the Mountain
ok, I believe you
Sephiroth was in control because that gives him cred for FF7 and makes him look super cool.
We can retcon it as Jenova was in control all along to turn Jenova into a scapegoat and redeem Sephiroth so he can be redeemed, become playable and be super cool.
>We can retcon it as Jenova was in control all along to turn Jenova into a scapegoat and redeem Sephiroth so he can be redeemed, become playable and be super cool.
that would be incredibly gay but I can see it happening
Who was stronger.
Sephiroth, or Psarro?
ffvii has a four digit damage cap
dqiv only has three digit damage
from a purely mathematical perspective it's sephiroth
But, do thos numbers mean the same thing in context? What does 100 damage mean in FF7, versus in DQ4?
Unfortunately, I can't think of a good, less abstract and relative bridge.
I feel like the orbital lasers and such imply a much higher power level from the FF7 cast than anything in DQ4.
Actually, I one hundred percent guarantee Sephiroth will be a playable party member either in the next game or more likely the conclusion of the trilogy. His cryptic behavior in the Remake makes it pretty clear there will be some exigent threat that necessitates him joining the party. I could be wrong but I almost fricking guarantee it.
he might be playable during the flashback
him joining the party would be extremely lame
>him joining the party would be extremely lame
Which is exactly why it will happen. I almost guarantee it. Just put yourself in the mind of the same mind that came up with Remake being yet another establishment in the Compilation. We've had Deepground, we've had Omega, we've had Genesis. I am almost sure Sephiroth will end up becoming an antihero of sorts who Cloud has to grudgingly work with against some outside threat that is a danger to them both.
Do Sephiroth hate time janitors because they are not paid ?
yo is that tentacle sucking him off?
It's a heart.
A princess of heart. Simple and clean, mate.
lulz
>Jenova
Looks beautiful .
Don't talk to her. She wants to feed on your essence and enslave your body
As if the ancients were doing drugs and sharing a needle with jenova, spreading her space AIDS.
So Jenovagays are just ironic morons. At least now we have definitive proof based on this thread.
Jenova. The homosexual writers just changed tack afterwards to cash in on the gay cloud sephiroth fujos
There is no clear evidence in the entirety of the original game that clearly points to Jenova having been in control the entire time. Did Jenova warp Sephiroth's mind? Clearly. But he was the one making decisions, and his spirit is the one you eliminate in the Lifestream as opposed to Jenova's.
Loads of evidence, another anon summed it up succinctly in this thread
Jenova: beacause... You are a puppet
How does this prove that Jenova was the one in control of Sephiroth?
Because it turns out theyre not chasing seph around but jenova, who shapeshifts to the form of sephiroth and reveals it wasnt sepithroth speaking but jenova all along
Yes, they are chasing around Jenova which is shapeshifted into Sephiroth, which is being directed by Sephiroth in the Northern crater. Which is why at the conclusion of the game, when Cloud's spirit enters the Lifestream, we face Sephiroth and NOT Jenova.
>yes jenova is puppeting sephiroth but actually sephitroth is puppeting jenova puppeting sepithroth
The last fight is about cloud hallucinating conquering his own schizo obsession with sephiroth
Oh I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing what actually happened and not your headcanon, my bad
>sephiroth died and was reabsorbed into the lifestream except he wasnt beecause his will was too strong
Only jenova is rejected by the lifestream, all other life is reabsorbed
>HIS WILL WAS JUST TOO STRONG OK? HEADCANON HEADCANON REEEER
Where is it stated that ONLY Jenova's will is not absorbed by the Lifestream. Are you going to sit here and pretend that Aeris wasn't also capable of expressing her will after being killed? Was that also just an imagination from everyone to lend credence to your headcanon?
The entire metaphysics of gaia and lifestream as explained by budweiserhagen is that when all life dies its reabsorbed into the lifestream to reincarnate. And only jenova isnt because the planet rejects it as an alien parasite.
>The entire metaphysics of gaia and lifestream as explained by budweiserhagen is that when all life dies its reabsorbed into the lifestream to reincarnate
If you played the game for five minutes past that part, you’d get to the cave of the Gi, where Bugenhagen says their hatred and regrets were too strong for them to be re-absorbed into the lifestream so they linger on as vengeful spirits. There’s also the spirit of the Cetra that you chase around the temple of the ancients who’s sense of duty was too strong to let him be absorbed
>Only jenova is rejected by the lifestream, all other life is reabsorbed
Even if this is true, Sephiroth is effectively a Jenova/human hybrid. The lifestream might reject him as an alien enemy.
>cloud hallucinating conquering his own schizo obsession with sephiroth
not at all. sephiroth is literally inside cloud because they share the jenova bond. unless Cloud kills that part of himself, sephiroth will still exist.
>I'm going to ignore in-game text and argue SEMANTICS! I win. 🙂
There is more evidence to suggest Jenova was controlling Sephiroth than there is evidence of sephiroth actually being alive.
I still don’t understand how people don’t get that jenova couldn’t enter the fricking lifestream and sephiroths dead carcass was literally stuck in it.
Its not hard to accept that they retconned everything because sephiroth was a cooler villain.
At what point is it ever stated that Jenova could not enter the Lifestream? If that were even the case it would prove you incorrect, since we face Sephiroth at the end of the game IN THE LIFESTREAM. He is the one that is there, not Jenova. Come on, man. We can agree that he had his mind fricked by Jenova shenanigans, but he was not being puppeteered by her, you have to be willingly obtuse to even suggest that.
He had jenovas cells inside of him and all other parts of jenova can’t enter the lifestream. I am sure your 2 brain cells can put 2 and 2 together
Yes, my brain is able to comprehend that being we confront his will in the Lifestream that he could not have been Jenova. Meanwhile you make shit up because you desperately need your headcanon to be correct. It's kind of pathetic.
>literally no fricking actual argument
Yes you literally have the brain capacity of monkey.
He was torn in fricking half, how the frick does anyone survive that. The only thing that makes sense is that his body was used as a fricking host.
You people are so moronic
>The only thing that makes sense is if you believe my headcanon
Mhmm. Seems to be a common thread with you Jenovagays kek
Sephiroth =/= Jenova
Jenova could not be absorbed by the lifestream and nor could sephiroths body because of the jenova cells. Jenova is alien the planet doesn't take back an alien. The game really suggests you're fighting a ghost of sephiroth, except not a ghost. They stay away from the word spirit or soul and focus on "will" but they aren't really describing entities
Exactly, his will survived, Sephiroth did not. If anything you're fighting Sephiroths "dying wish, which is to destroy the planet. They don't use the japanese word for willpower or self discipline or anything else, literally Sepihroths will, his intent, his goal. That is what you are fighting, the echo of his desires that are in the life stream. And also Jenova's instinct to reform. You're not fighting a fully sentient being. It's like the bad guys in Spirits Within.
>Exactly, his will survived, Sephiroth did not.
read the line slowly, very slowly if you have to,
"SEPHIROTH is not just content to diffuse HIS will into the lifestream. HE wants to manipulate the clones himself"
Highlight the part that says "Sephiroth is alive" and cause none of this indicates Sephiroth is consciously alive. His will is said to be pushing things, not Sephiroth "Himself"
Are you having problems with pronouns? You're putting that much weight into something over 1 word and ignoring the rest of the game? You gonna play the literal game, use the japanese text. Maybe look up the translation of this line and see what you get. Out of context it has a different meaning, because of the way Japan frames their syntax.
コピーをあやつりはじめたのだ……
did it ever occur to you that sephiroth can use the jenova parts as his mouthpiece?
Lol, how can he do it but the cetra and other species from planets couldn't? Let me guess, because his will was just sooo strong?
Turns out it's easy to beat the calamity from the skies, just b urself
Because he's an amalgamation of Cetra and Jenova. He is the only one of his kind.
Lol. You need to play the game. Hes no cetra, that was a mistaken delusion he had. He was hojo lucretia baby just injected with jenova cells like any jenova puppet
Sephiroth has 0% Cetra DNA.
Sephiroth's three parents are Lucrecia and Hojo as his mother and father, with Jenova cells injected into his developing fetus. Jenova isn't truly a parent, but had a more direct genetic influence on Sephiroth over others injected with Jenova cells, because these cells were introduced during Seohiroth's fetal development.
The passage he reads from Shinra manor was either misinformation collected from before Ifalna told Ghast what Jenova actually was, or disinformation spread by Hojo to throw people off the trail of what he was really working on, because Shinra wanted a Cetra to find the Promised Land, not an alien bioweapon killing machine.
Given that this was Hojo's lab, where he experimented with Jenova cells, almost certainly the latter.
>just b urself
If yourself was a litteral hybrid, yeah
Thats not what happend but I dont see how Jenova talking to cloud proves one thing or another.
Always was
So it's Sephiroth AND Jenova.
Jenova drove Sephiroth mad during the Nibelheim incident where he fell to his death carrying her head. One could argue that as of that point they both cease to be individual consciousnesses.
Who here would frick Jenova
Damn, I can't remember the last time I read a thread that went this far off the edge into angry schizophrenia after starting off so mild and casual.
>388 posts in this thread arguing basic plot points of Final Fantasy VII in the year of our Lord 2022.
This is why I say 7gays need their own general for their train wreck of an overrated normie game.
That's fricking hilarious coming from someone posting IV, the most normie JRPG in existence
If a normie has ever played a single JRPG its FF7 and you know it.
>Sephiroth first form
>Jenova is on top of him, in the position where the brain would be
>brain is the organ that controls the body
Sephsisters... I guess our boy canonically is just a pawn after all...
Underrated theme
Arguing with jenovagays is like that scene in spongebob where manray tries to return the wallet to patrick
Although I think they're trolling by pretending to be moronic at this point
the JENOVA theory is the theory that makes most sense taking into account only the information presented in the original PS1 game. if you start taking into account all the stuff introduced with the expanded universe shit becomes turbo moronic and nothing matters anymore.
Why do zoomers keep repeating this
we're are the future. get with the times. be cool or stay cringe. fr fr *dabs*
>dabs
Yikes. That's so pre-covid.
>Jenova is Orange Tang
>Sephiroth is Best Girl
I don't care about jarpig religious deconstruction. It never made any sense in the first place.
All I want to know is is Cloud a hapless mall cop that just fell into this at random when he wouldn't get in the giant Jenova or did he ever receive the ability to generate an AT field of his own as some sort of Zack experimental resurrection/chosen one? If not, then wtf is Knights of the Round.
Cloud is Shinji if he drank Chad juice that made him think he was Kaji and Asuka sucked his dick. If you believe the movies and games that happened after FFVII are canon then the Chad juice wore off and he got a microdick wishing Kaworu would inflate his boipussy and required the ghost of Rei to give him a reacharound so he could initiate Fourth Impact and get worst girl.
I believe the writers stated Sephiroth, but most westerners pretend its Jenova anyway because it makes a better story in their opinion.
That is a retcon
That's a retcon because Sephiroth is more popular and marketable.
I think it's more the dichotomy between the west and the east. In Japan, readers are perfectly content with an explanation of a strong human overpowering a godlike will and their histories are full of stories of such cases, in the west, our concept of godlike beings push them so far beyond mortal capability that almost every time we have a story of a human attempting to interact with them ends badly for the person in question. Even the few that succeed only do so due to some sort of trickery, the only one who I could think of that kind of wins out through raw power is Beowulf, and that's only if you consider his adversary to be of godlike power.
That's why Japan doesn't mind the explanation that Sephiroth overtakes JENOVA, it's not an uncommon trope in their literature. In the west, we're more likely to go with what we know and assume his actions are a mere monument to hubris, thinking he's more powerful than a deity and getting his comeuppance.
This entire threads had proven FF7 was a mistake that has done irreparable damage to the final fantasy series. Magic big bad wanting to destroy the world with his evil magic getting stopped by another magic wielder on the side of good is better, simpler, and easier to understand.
its as simple as you want it to be. if it helps, you can just dumb down FF7 into "evil space alien wants to destroy planet but is stopped by mighty sword hero guy and friends"
let's not pretend FF1 kicked things off with moronicly unnecessary shit like preordained time loops anyways
Nah this entire thread only proved that some people have a crippling level of autism, leading to inability to understand the point of storytelling, which in turn leads to elaborately wrong interpretations of the story. Specifically, the idiot arguing that Jenova is the real villain.
The idiot arguing that jenova is the real villain actually read the story though. All the people going against him simply use headcanons and assumptions as arguments
Yeah except this part
Then the game suddenly becomes a liar
Jenovagays were already proven to be ironic shitposters like
as well as newbies relaying on Remake logic like
From the info in the original game, Jenova. If you start factoring in Crisis Cores, Dirge and all the other shit, who the frick knows? I guarantee the by-now 500+ writers working on the series don't know.
>From the info in the original game, Jenova.
how did you play the game and come to this conclusion, unless you are an esl or played the game half-asleep? the game literally spells it out in front of you that it's Sephiroth.
>spells it out in front of you that it's Sephiroth.
lmao
Imagine playing the game and coming to this conclusion. Don't worry, keep accusing others of being ESL's, I'm sure you'll eventually gaslight someone you're right.
>acusses someone else of gaslighting
>uses headcanons as an argument
>provides no actual evidence
>pretends he is right
>headcanons
Alright Hispanic. Play the game again and read the text this time.
It's pretty obvious Jenova was the real villain OP.
What do you think mako smells like?
Ozone, if I had to think of a scent
it shouldn't smell like anything, since silica and calcium generally do not elicit a scent in humans. Id bet it has a vinegar smell though, like an acid.