Something I don't understand about yugioh is the balance.
Other games have a mana cost that makes up for a powerful card's stats/abilities, but Yugiioh has none of that.
There are complex monsters that require sacrifies or even rituals to summon, but then you have wildly scaled monsters with varying power levels, but have the same "cost" to play.
Like you have two monsters with the same value, yet one would (in 99% of the situations) be the objectively better card. So why bother with the other?
Like look at picrel.
Why the frick would anyone have the dinosaur on the left?
Even disregarding the effect, which already puts it a few tiers above dinobro, the stats alone are already better.
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it's not just about having the strongest monster, it's about using your monsters alongside magic and trap cards to get the most out of them!
> eyyy, yuuug
> geddaloadda my kunai wit chain heheh Kaiba betta watch out, uh??
I was tickled pink to see the KUNAI WIT CHAIN retool in the super-Joey deck. Almost as silly of an archetype amalgamate as the Ojama-engine Armed Dragon Catapult Cannon.
did you see that this just came out?
Oh I didn't, that's funny. They should just go full moron with it and make a 'with chain' monster you have to fuse multiple equipped chains into.
>Why the frick would anyone have the dinosaur on the left?
Because DEF doesn't matter and I specifically need a dinosaur, not a fairy.
very, very early on in yugioh's lifespan, the idea was that you'd not have access to every card. You'd have what you could pull or trade for and not much more, and adding slightly-better 4-star monsters to the first few expansions was a sales tactic in japan. By the time the west got translated yugioh, they rolled a bunch of the early sets into one or two releases, which removed the slow improvement of early sets. As more cards were added, there was also a greater rane of good spell/trap cards worth including, and so less need to have deck filler.
Early effect monsters were often niche and shit. It boiled down to hoping you drew and played a better beatstick than your opponent, while using the few good spells or traps to stop the opponent's beatstick.
But that's all fairly early on. Even during pre-GX we'd got to the point that normal (non-effect) monsters were worthless unless they were heavily supported. The largest limitation in the game is one normal summon a turn, and that's why effects that special summon themselves, or cascading special summons, and that sort of thing are all so important. For a normal monster to be good it needs to have support that can special it out in some way.
I like the new reworked version of useless legacy cards they have been releasing lately
I feel like they could explore reworks a little more, but sadly there's only so much they're allowed to do because nostalgia homosexuals act like anything post-GX is the devil. For example, the one time they experimented with letting old anime archetypes interact with post-DM mechanics (Blue Eyes synchros because they're white cards complete with a cult of Tuners, Dark Magician XYZs because they're black cards, etc), nostalgia homosexuals in Japan threw a hissy fit even though it was the only time Blue-Eyes ever managed to get onto the tournament stage, so nowadays they're only allowed to get Fusions (and Rituals if they're lucky) despite having a hundred already.
They're releasing old normal monster retrains through the new Illusion type. They aren't really doing retrains and retroactive support through extra deck evolutions, but I feel that's for the best because all of the Illusion monsters they've released have been monstrously based.
Not even just old normal monster retrains. Some of them come from the early video games on the Gameboy Color where you could create your own normal monsters from a weird card parts system.
50% of new packs now are "old trash card you liked from 2003" but given a modern spin.
>nostalgia homosexuals in Japan threw a hissy fit even though it was the only time Blue-Eyes ever managed to get onto the tournament stage, so nowadays they're only allowed to get Fusions (and Rituals if they're lucky) despite having a hundred already.
They have a point you know. If I buy a Kaiba deck, I want to feel like Kaiba.
Firstly, those two cards came out several years apart. The card on the left was originally printed in Japan in 1999, and the card on the right came out in 2003.
Unlike MtG, Yugioh doesn't have set rotation, and therefore Konami's method of selling packs is pretty much consistent power creep.
There was a brief period of the game where the best level 4 monster had 1200 attack, and then was upstaged by 1500 attack monsters like Uraby there.
Secondly, things like type and archetype are a factor. There are quite a few cards out there that care about normal monsters, dinosaur monsters, and even some that specifically care about normal dinosaur monsters. Of course, a lot of those factors aren't unique to Uraby anymore, but for a period of time it was the level 4 dino with the highest attack.
tl;dr See pic related. Having mana costs does not shield a game from this.
Magic is so fricked and has been for a while now. Raging Goblin is a great example of what the actual power scale should be. Frick lightning bolt. Shock all the way. It's important to note that if the left card was a 1/1 with prowess, it would fit right in line.
You're right about mtg being garbage butwhat so you mean about lightning bilt since it was in alpha. M10 was thr most balanced magic has ever been or will be imo. Ironically it had ragin goblin and lightning bolt.
I just like the time before lightning bolt was reprinted. We're not going to sit here and pretend that the first couple sets were even attempted to be balanced. 1 mana for two instant damage to anything is great. I personally think that 3 is just too much, and aside from that one card very clearly makes the other worthless. Obviously, no era of magic is really perfect either. Modern magic is hot fricking garbage though, and has been for a while now.
>Frick lightning bolt. Shock all the way.
Lightning bolt came before shock
I'm not about to get into the weeds about a balance argument. I mostly posted it to demonstrate that Yugioh and MtG are both subject to this. Namely, old creatures getting power crept by newer creatures. Players don't always enjoy power creep, but companies do it because it helps sell new packs.
What's to debate? He's right, numagic is redonkulous compared to instances in the past. You're right, too, pic rel. But there are reasons why this is ok. Mana cost definitely allows for more control over balance, and probably makes magic a better game. Idk anything about yugioh, though
>Idk anything about yugioh, though
Yeah, that's why I tried to give a similar example using MtG cards, since OP brought up mana cost. I assumed that meant he was more familiar with MtG, and thus that would be the simplest way to demonstrate that a new card being better than an old card isn't anything unusual.
The original card in that comparison should be Phyrexian Ghoul from Urza's Saga. WOTC tried to "fix" a bunch of old cards there (Thran Foundry is Feldon's Cane. Manticore is Mishra's War Machine. Yawgmoth's Bargain is Necropotence.) but ended up with so much power creep they had to do emergency bans (on a scale not seen for several years until Mirrodin) and then throttle the power level down massively with the Masques block.
Nice game you've got here, it would be a shame if it got power crept
Babycerasaurus can't summon Agido
>Why would anyone have the Dinosaur on the Left?
Uraby was made in the ultra-early state of the game where those stats were good on a Level 4 monster. By the time the game got imported to the west, we were releasing cards like La Jinn which strictly power crept it to the point of irrelevancy.
That being said, there is currently an engine that calls specifically for a Normal Dinosaur monster. They don't use Uraby but it also doesn't really matter which one they use.
>Other games have a mana cost that makes up for a powerful card's stats/abilities, but Yugiioh has none of that.
Most (but not all) effects in Yugioh are limited to once per turn, with three variants of that being
>"Soft" once per turn
Limited to that instance of the card. There are ways you can cheat it that I won't get into because that requires more game knowledge.
>"Hard" once per turn
Applied to any instance of the card. A Witchcrafter Schmietta using her effect that turn means that another can't for example.
>"Strict" once per turn
"You can only use 1 effect of "this card's name" once per turn, and only once that turn"
Meaning, if you activate 1 effect of that card, you cannot activate any of the others for the rest of the turn.
Most effects have Hard OPT limitations, with Soft OPTs coming after. It keeps the game in-check because you can interrupt those effects and turn every copy of that card into a brick.
Also, most effects have activation costs or conditions tied to them, meaning you can't just willy-nilly fire off effects until you win the game. Pot of Desires for instance requires you to face-down banish 10 cards off the top of your deck (it's like super-exiling them), then you get to draw 2 cards when the effect resolves. It indicates it by putting the cost before a semicolon ( ; ), indicating that you do it before the effect resolves, regardless of whether or not it's negated or fizzles.
I could give off more examples, but the point is that while there are not universal resource pools like mana that they need to draw from, there is still a system in place that keeps the game running smoothly.
>remove Uraby from graveyard
>Tyranno Infinity now has 1000 more attack
That's why you use him.
Yugioh was never designed to be balanced. This is a several layered big brain meme in that the tip of the iceberg is it's just a one off satire of magic the gathering that got out of hand because Konami saw it's popularity and decided to just print cards.
But that doesn't add up because why than do the things they did? Why make those game rules at all?
I firmly am under the impression it's some sortof mk ultra shit. That's why there's so much child porn in the art, that's why it appeals to these utterly ridiculous twats that'll spend twenty minutes doing a turn but think "floodgates" are what kill the game, the fact they even CALL IT a game...
I'm not going to sit here and talk forever like Putin with Tucker. Best I can tell you is if you see a Yugioh player, assault a Yugioh player. They're demented. There is nothing good about Yugioh. From a design perspective it is SO BAD Konami legitimately should be getting bomb threats. Because there is no reason on God's green Earth why they can make money releasing something so awful but you gotta go to work.
And you're never going to reason with these c**ts. They're gooners. They WANT their broken shit game with the child porn art. So take it from them. Rip their cards. Always. When these pay piggies see their 500 dollars flushed right down the toilet. Reality will win.
have a (You) for the effort
So yugioh doesn't have costs? Why wouldn't you just play everything in your hand every turn?
There are activation costs and resources, they're just not tied to a separate numerical value like mana.
First off, is that by default you only get one normal summon per turn, which (while increasingly less the case and depending on starting hand) is sometimes necessary for a deck to start their plays, and sometimes you might have multiple cards competing for your normal summon.
Second, is once per turns - most cards specify that you can only activate a certain card/effect once per turn even if you have multiples of a card.
Third, is specific activation costs. A card might require that you discard a card, or fill some other specific condition before you can play it.
But also you might play all your cards first turn, barring handtraps you need to hold onto for when your opponent acts. Then, your opponent will use all their cards to get past what you've set up. While I think recently there've been a few decks more focused on recovery and longer games, games can often be only 2-3 turns long, so so shitting out your hand could be the only chance you've got, use them or lose them.
refer to
Yu-Gi-Oh does have costs, what it doesn't have is an explicit resource system like mana or energy. Instead it tends to rely on the Implicit resources of a card game, such as cards in hand or the normal summon.
Effects can have costs to use them but its in the form of expending one of these resources such as discarding a card from hand or sacrificing a creature. There are often activation conditions that require something to happen in order to be able to have the card not just sit there. Many times, there's both an activation condition and an effect.
There is one additional resource system used for balance that is very prominent in the game. "Once per"s (typically Once per Turn but can also be Once per Duel), which are split into what are nicknamed "Soft" and "Hard" types.
>Soft Once Per effects only count per copy of a card so if you have two on the field you can use each one once while they are on the field, with the rules saying that if one, say, goes to the graveyard and is returned to the field, it counts as a new copy (just like if it goes to the "hidden information zones" of the hand or deck and then comes back).
I do have to say Soft Once Per because, among other reasons, Konami accidentally released a Soft Once Per Duel effect during the early days. This led to the card being put on the banlist to deal with a lot of ruling disputes, eventually this was corrected to the Hard type.
>Hard Once Per are listed as some variation (there are many) of "You can only activate the effect of "<Card Name>" once per turn" that's on the card as an effect and means that if you have two copies on field, you can only use a single one, and if one leaves the field and comes back, you can't activate it again.
If you can't tell, the Hard Once lines used to prevent loops has helped with the card text bloat, but it can't really be easily keyworded. There's a lot of weird variations out there that would cause the game to be harder to understand if you tried to.
And this is all bullshit cope because if one card exists without hard once per turns, all do essentially because it's the only thing used.
As well permanent effects rather than per turn effects.
As well as as well as as well as.
Konami refuses to make an action economy of only just so many activations per turn or even game.
You'll say something stupid like read the card.
They need to be banned from any form of business and you need to be forced to read The Bible
>And this is all bullshit cope because if one card exists without hard once per turns, all do essentially because it's the only thing used
Yeah right that's why everyone's running Cup of Aces over Pot of Desires, right? And why White Elephant's Gift is meta while Pot of Prosperity isn't.
Fricking moron.
What the frick are you even talking about? Do you think that a card lacking a once per turn erases the clause on all others?
Here's something that'll blow your breasts off: a year ago a powerful archetype was released that only had a hard once per turn on a single card, and paired well with an engine of another deck that did not have once per turn clauses. It was never a tier 0 deck, and it hasn't topped an event in months.
>You'll say something stupid like read the card.
Yeah man, crazy - the cards actually exist and explain how they function.
If you drew two of this butthole, its effect means you can only use one of them. All its effect does is stop a single instance of searching, drawing or sending from deck to grave.
It is the single most consistently meta viable card for nearly a third of the TCG's lifespan, and there have been multiple instances where that single effect going off severely damaged a deck's ability to a make a decently strong board and making many unhealthy decks completely non-viable.
You're either completely ignorant or utterly incompetent.
As further proof, this twink is not a once per turn and provides not just a continuous effect but a lingering one which is the ultimate form of permanent effect because it can't be stopped once it manages to fire off.
It rarely sees play and is largely dependent on specific formats.
Ash Blossom is a cancerous band-aid to a cancerous problem
The Dinosaur on the left was printed in 1999 at a point in time where the Attack stat for level 4 monsters capped out at 1400, and previously was at 1200. It would later be outclassed by La Jinn at 1800.
This wasn't visible internationally because the international release of the TCG was in 2002 and a lot of early cards were never exported with those that were being from multiple sets compiled into a single one.
For other weirdness of this early time, the effects of Witch of the Black Forest and Sangan could trigger off of Graceful Charity in their first OCG printings and this caused a Tier 0 Exodia FTK format at the end of 1999 which was only solved through changing their effects to have to trigger going from the field to the graveyard.
jesus what a horribly designed game
Because Uraby is a Dinosaur type, so it can be used in Dinosaur decks. Agido can be used in Fairy decks. They both have synergy with other cards.
Also this is a bad example like other said, with Uraby coming out very early in Yugiohs life and Agido coming out towards the later half of the Duel Monsters era.
Reading yugioh's manga made me think that he probably didn't expect or want people to only play the one game forever anyway. We all know the story of how it wasn't originally planned out much and the original concept was wildly different and all, but he also really liked games in general and would likely happily encourage players who felt like they had a tired, solved game on their hands to play something else or to make up their own rules. He'd be the first guy to tell you to use them as rpg tokens or play a wacky numbers game based on the cards power levels.
It'd probably have been alright if it never outlived the original series.
He didn't, the manga is a lot less focused on the card game than its anime adaptation is.
The big issue with Yugioh has always been that it's a real world adaptation of a fictional card game made for a manga based on the author's flawed understanding of MtG. Cards were made up chapter by chapter with no intention of ever balancing it, and constant instances of ridiculously overpowered bullshit that got countered by hyper-specific combos of cards made up on the spot.
It can be an okay read, but it works a lot better if you read it with the knowledge that it's not a manga about characters playing an existing card game, it's a manga about clever card game combos and counters featuring made-up cards.
>based on the author's flawed understanding of MtG
It's just an homage to mtg with simple rules to suit the fact that serial manga chapters have frick-all space for complex plays, not a bad approximation of what the author thought mtg was like. In interviews and bonus material he even mentioned that he played mtg often and that early Kaiba was based on someone from his LGS
No, Magic & Wizards is based on Takahashi watching people play MtG and not quite understanding the rules. The entire "defense mode" system is because he misinterpreted players turning their cards sideways when tapping them as "switching them to a defensive stance".
in the world of yu-gi-oh the overpowered cards work because they are super rare and expensice. blue eyes was op in production and they canceled the whole batch and only 4 pieces got out into public. next in line was exodia, so rare nobody ever had all 5 pieces and the same time. the only exception was that old geezer who owned a whole game store and he hoarded all the good stuff. that's his own deck and the deck of his grandson got super cool cards like dark magician and summoned skull which are legendary scarse. rex raptor had to give up his whole tournament winning just to buy red eyes black dragon which costs like 8000 bucks. kaiba killed 3 people just get his hands on blue eyes. gate guardian, the god cards and toon world are one of a kind and probably cost a million each. jinzo probably cost as much as a car and freaky fish guys fortress whale was a uuuh-aaaah crowd pleaser. most people on the planet don't even know what ritual cards are. the star ratings on the cards started out as rarity meter and not power level. level one was booster chaff and level 8 was incredibly hard to come by. i mean you don't even were aware that card even existed. like a phantom or a dream come true.
That's what happens when you don't plan a game and just keep shoving new shit in it. That's why archetypes became so prominent, hate this shit
>yugioh is a poorly planned out game
>these planned out series of cards that function in specific ways that mesh with other similarly designed cards? the result.
The "fix" they came up with, made the game worse yeah
And can you articulate as to what makes it so awful? Because there's nothing inherently wrong with making series of cards that just work well with themselves and other similarly functional cards
>and other similarly functional cards
Funny you mention that because 90% of archetypes only work 100% exclusively with cards of the same archetype. I have zero problems with open archetypes, it's cool to have a bunch of cards with a similar theme, the problem is when they create a bunch of overpowered archetypes that only work with themselves, it kills the deckbuilding side of the game and makes the game even more boring than before.
>Funny you mention that because 90% of archetypes only work 100% exclusively with cards of the same archetype
That hasn't been an applicable statement since the end of TOSS format. Almost every single deck that's seen competitive relevance has been some form of hybrid deck
>Dragon Link (LIGHT/DARK Dragon Synchro/Link archetype)
>Tenyi/Swordsoul (Wyrm Synchro/Link/sometimes Xyz pile)
>Branded/Despia/Bystial (primarily Fusion but evolved into Fusion/Synchro)
>Floowandereeze (WIND Pile, also leaned into Harpies before Simorgh got banned)
>Ishizu/Tearlament (Tearlament/Ishizu/Shaddoll if you're not counting all of the cards they pulled in from other decks)
>VIN and VIM (Vernusylph/Ishizu/(Naturia or Madolche), respectively forming an EARTH Fairy and generic EARTH pile)
>Mannadium (Scareclaw/Tearlament/Kashtira/Mannadium)
>Drytron (Drytron/(Herald/Dogmatika/Cyber Angel/etc), forming generic Ritual piles)
>Runick/(Fur Hire/Spright/Generaider/Exodia/(...))
>Virtual World/P.U.N.K (Psychic Synchro/Xyz)
We could also talk about all the Adventurer, King's Sarcophagus, and Sinful Spoils decks that have popped up using those things as the backbone to other engines, but we'd be here all day. Of course, you might know that if you commented on the game based on your experiences rather than secondhand information from a youtube comment section.
Just for the sake of it, let's keep going. I will warn you that I'm also listing off some of my own decks here rather than sticking to competitively relevant decks
>Tearlament/Spright (pre-Elf ban)
>Runick/Spright/Fur Hire
>Gishki/Spright
>Spright itself also incorporates the Nimble engine into its deck as a standard extender
>Vaalmonica Rank-4 pile
>Sharks (Rank 4-5 Xyz WATER pile that has recently incorporated the Armored Xyz series)
>Kashtira Gate Guardian (Fusion/Xyz deck utilizing Gate Guardian fusions and the Rank-7 pool)
>Ishizu Gate Guardian (strictly a Fusion variant that dumps all of the pieces into the GY to contact fuse)
>Branded Predaplant (DARK Fusion deck)
>Egyptian/Wicked God Virtual World (very dangerous)
>De-synchro Deepdraw Virtual World (utilizes Trishula and De-Synchro to handloop your opponent)
>Nemrelia/Gren Maju (utilizes the Nemrelia engine alongside standard Gren Maju setups)
>Skull Servant/Lightsworn (this is a future release thing since they got Wightsworn)
>Eldlich/Horus
Should I continue? Because almost every single modern deck is some combination of multiple archetypes.
Not him, but Yugioh's archetypes are terrible design. I look at the top decks periodically and they are always the same sort of trash. A big pile of things named
"X NAME Guy1"
"X NAME Guy2"
"X NAME Guy3"
It's just lazy and bad game design. Even in the abhorrently bad and parasitic state MTG card design is today, at least it has archetypes other than singularly-focused tribal decks. Even the names are near-identical so that you don't have to read the cards and discover any organic interaction. They are all "Fetch a Dicksucker card from your deck" "Discard a Dicksucker card to counter an ability" etc etc. I went and looked at the top deck for the last six months and found these
>https://yugiohtopdecks.com/deck/9814
Almost every card outside of the must-have utility cards is named Superheavy Samurai
>https://yugiohtopdecks.com/deck/9813
Here they're all called Infernoble. It must have been so difficult to come up with that design lmao
>https://yugiohtopdecks.com/deck/9816
Marincess
>https://yugiohtopdecks.com/deck/9800
This is the most creative one by far, in terms of naming. I don't know all the cards, but maybe synchro cards require you to actually know what they do before you build the deck.
>https://yugiohtopdecks.com/deck/9787
This one looks like it might actually require some thought too.
Almost every one of these is Ashblossom, Droll Bird, Effect Veiler, and then a pile of cards that explicitly tell you to play them together. Does Konami just assume the players are moronic? Most of these can literally be built without knowing what the cards do. I think I could probably make a good deck by just sorting a set alphabetically and throwing in everything grouped under a big enough name set
It's more that cards with good, generic draw, discard or destruction effects tended to be overrepresented much like the ass blastems and effect veilers of today are. From a production standpoint this doesn't sell new decks nearly as much, and from a consumer standpoint it makes these cards very expensive to acquire outside of pack luck.
>An archetype, which is a series of cards, all share the same name within their series so that they can easily reference oneanother
Yes, that's because an archetype is a series of cards that belongs to one shared card pool, and are named as such so that they can easily reference cards within their series.
>Almost every one of these is (generic staples), and then a pile of cards that explicitly tell you to play them together.
Archetypes tell you that they work with other cards within the archetype so that you can figure out other combinations yourself.
What you're looking at is builds that are the result of community experimentation that is put to the test in a tournament setting. Those won't tell you that Gunkan can work with Magikey since they both spam Level 4 monsters, or that Traptrix happens to work with Utopia and the new Goblin Bikers because it gives them a samson option in case they need to pivot into really big damage. There's also Witchcrafter, Invoked, and Shaddoll all being able to work with oneanother in a Spellcaster/Fusion pile, which you can incidentally slot into a Tearlament deck since they also happen to enjoy having their cards milled. Like I did earlier in the thread to that other anon, I could start listing off more examples, but I've already done that across three (now four) posts and don't feel like I need to continue doing so.
tl;dr
>You're looking at META, which isn't representative of the entire game
>Archetypes tell you that they work with other cards within the archetype so that you can figure out other combinations yourself.
And games like MTG don't require this. Magic doesn't have to tell you specifically "PUT ALL OF THESE CARDS TOGETHER", and the cards themselves don't specifically reference the other cards by name.
>What you're looking at is builds that are the result of community experimentation that is put to the test in a tournament setting.
90% of those the cards in those decks tell you in the name that they go together. What experimentation is needed to know that you run all the Superheavy Samurai together?
>Those won't tell you that Gunkan can work with Magikey since they both spam Level 4 monsters, or that Traptrix happens to work with Utopia and the new Goblin Bikers
That isn't what I am seeing in the top 3 decks. It's just cramming generic good-stuff staples into a pile of archetype cards. Like I said, even the card text only works within the archetypes it seems. The Superheavy Samurai fetch more samurai, and attach to samurai. They are explicitly and specifically made to work together. In MTG you can have things that work in an archetype without the game having to lock you into the archetype or telling you in the name. For example, Raging Goblin is a Goblin, but he does things outside of Goblin decks. Theros block had creatures which could be played as enchantments. They had utility in that regard, so they acted as answers to control decks. They also played into the "enchantments matter" subtheme of the set.
Like I said with the last couple of decks I posted, some of theme do seem like they require some actual thought when deckbuilding. But archetypes are still incredibly lazy poor design based on the assumption that your playerbase is too stupid to read
Actually, I just realized that every Yugioh archetype is like lazy slivers, but more narrow since they make multiple smaller archetypes. Slivers all give benefits to other slivers, so you don't have to think too much when building the deck. You just throw in the slivers you want. But the pool of slivers is large enough that you have to think a little bit and pick the ones on theme.
most of the thought when it comes to deckbuilding in yugioh is in the extra deck rather than the main deck. regardless though modern yugioh is much about fast paced gameplay with razor thin margins between winnning and losing rather than deep deckbuilding decisions and novel lists. not saying that they dont happen but truly unique decks in yugioh are more about doing something interesting extra deck wise since its so consistent. no mulligan and and games lasting 2.5-ish turns on average means if your win condition isnt in the extra deck, you dont open a win condition, or your hand doesnt search your win condition you will 100% lose.
the big issue wIth ygo is that before archetypes literally everyone played the same 30-36 cards with at most 10 flex spots because staples are so powerful. archetypes had to be self-referencing and operate as an engine or nobody would play them because the individual cards dont read "you win the game." nowdays this has completely flipped due to powercreep where if an archetype is too generic and splashable it leads to one deck formats like what we're currently in with snake-eye.
Thanks. This makes sense. I think I understand the benefit of archetypes a bit more now. It still feels kind of lazy, but without rotating formats, it is a pretty reasonable solution to avoiding goodstuff combo piles.
something else to mention is a lot of decks nowdays are 2 or 3 archetypes mashed together that have incidental synergies. for example the current best archetype, snake-eye, lets you tutor level 1 fire monsters from deck into play. this means that people have been fiddling with a whole host of supplementary engines that have a level 1 fire as a starter card in order to either raise the ceilIng of the snake-eye deck or as ways to play around/through your opponent's interaction. oftentimes, unless a particular archetype is broken out the gate, the first thing people look for when determining the viability of a new archetype is how splashable it is and if it plays well with other archetypes.
>What experimentation is needed to know that you run all the Superheavy Samurai together?
None, but quite a lot goes into actual competitively viable SHS builds because a lot of SHS cards freaking stink. You can make a functional deck off of the foundation of the archetype, but you'll be damned if you think you can make a good one just because you chuck a bunch of their names into one deck (especially considering how they have no innately good payoffs for their plays).
>For example, Raging Goblin is a Goblin, but he does things outside of Goblin decks.
Yes, and? Swordsoul of Mo Ye is a Swordsoul monster, but it does anything in a deck that's running Wyrm monsters, which is a sentiment that can be extended to the rest of their archetypal monsters. Witchcrafter Golem Aruru is a Witchcrafter card, but like all of the bosses of that archetype, it generically supports Spellcasters. Visas Starfrost is the lynchpin of his own multi-archetype series but he can work outside of it just as easily as a Level 6 tuner that specifically destroys one of your monsters to bring himself out (which in turn triggers some effects). The same can be applied to Diabellestar, and to a (much lesser) extent, Fallen of Albaz.
There is no shortage of similar examples in Yugioh, but you infantilize it because you skim things from an outsider's perspective and assume you can just chuck a bunch of cards of the same archetype into a deck and call it a day. I could do the same for MtG because it's color-coded but you'd probably give some pushback and say it's not that simple.
And I'll ask you this question; What is fundamentally wrong with giving players a structured set of cards that function out of the box, when while they're designed to function with oneanother, they are not strictly limited in such a way? What exactly is lazy about giving players a solid foundation to work off of so that they can comfortably experiment with their builds?
Also I couldn't fit it into the post but the other anons already mentioned it so I'll just toss this in too; Yeah, most decks revolve around building for your Extra Deck while the Main Deck is just an engine. It's not an ironclad rule though because we have plenty of decks that are oriented around Main Deck plays (or are evenly balanced between the two).
>What exactly is lazy about giving players a solid foundation to work off of so that they can comfortably experiment with their builds?
What seems lazy is that there seems to be little thought. You use the Ice Wall cards that have Ice Wall in the name, and they all specifically interact with other Ice Wall cards in the rules. I think providing synergies is great, but when the cards themselves are so parasitic it comes off as lazy. There's a difference between making a bunch of cards that make star levels matter, and making cards that explicitly reference and only work with other cards with the same name.
I guess I'm looking at it wrong. I look at the card's from the perspective of a Hearthstone or MTG player where the cards themselves are largely meant to function as independent game pieces. It seems like Yugioh treats them more as pieces of engines. So you would never run Dingdong Dinosaur Stegosaurus on his own, but you would run the 9-card Dingdong Dinosaur engine with the goal of using its output for something.
I haven't played since what would be called the GOAT format, so I recognize the game is very different from then
>Parasitic cards
Well, I get where you're coming from at least. There's a distinction between Parasitic and Xenophobic in this game if you start reading between the lines, and what I gathered was that you were assuming Archetypes are inherently xenophobic in nature. Xenophobic as in, the types of cards that very explicitly lock you into certain cards, which for the most part are either from older unplayed decks, or serve as chokepoints to keep the plays in-check.
>as chokepoints
Pic related as an example. It's the only card in the Tenyi archetype (which is run alongside Swordsoul) that locks you into Wyrms. Otherwise you're able to do whatever plays you want, until you activate this card's GY effect.
>So you would never run Dingdong Dinosaur Stegosaurus on his own, but you would run the 9-card Dingdong Dinosaur engine with the goal of using its output for something.
exactly, occasionally you'll run an archetype's main deck boss monster if you can cheat it out in another deck or if it's generically good enough by itself. these engines can be as small as 4 cards though, something like 3 starters and a main deck "brick" is commonplace. 3 ferir, 1 wraithsoth, 1 rise-heart in Vanquish Soul; or 1 fusion destiny, 1 dasher, 1 denier, dpe, and verte in the extra deck as a generic backup plan if you get your plays get stopped are two recent examples that come to mind.
>And games like MTG don't require this. Magic doesn't have to tell you specifically "PUT ALL OF THESE CARDS TOGETHER", and the cards themselves don't specifically reference the other cards by name.
The use of Archetypes is to provide another axis for effects. At base, Yugioh had:
>Card Type (Monster, Spell, Trap)
>Spell Type
>Trap Type
>Monster Type
>Monster Subtype
>Monster Level/Rank
>Monster Attribute
>Monster Statline
>Card Name
The introduction of Archetypes acted as a triple-layer solution, allowing:
>The ability to design themes of cards that have limited crossover under existing paradigms, such as a Super Sentai team as warriors and the Mechs they control as machines, with the Attributes matching the team member's color with something like Super Quant.
>Adding another layer of restriction to Spell/Trap searching so you could be more specific than "Normal Spell" or "Counter Trap" which previously hadn't had much in the way of options to prevent heavy optimization.
>Narrow the field of everything you need to juggle when one of the previous categories gets really big over the years because a type, such as Warrior, covers a ton of different designs as any human who fights defaults to it over more exotic ones like Aqua.
It's kinda an elegant solution, to be honest. May well have limited power creep by a bit instead of exacerbated it. Soul Charge was an insane card because of it being generic, but Spriggans had a card similar to that printed but because it was restricted to Spriggans, it was just a nice card for the deck rather than something that ripped the game apart.
KEK Sure, let's pretend what I said wasn't true and the super recent boom of generic archetypes SPECIALLY after the link lock shit they did has always been true. have a nice day
What's that? You want some generic engines that have recently released that mesh with a wide variety of decks since they lack restrictions?
Here's a handful of generic archetypes that were recently released, too
>Adventurer Engine
Token-generating engine that functions primarily through Spell/Traps that creates an Adventurer Token on either player's field (depending on the card). Most of the series is crap but the important cards serve as a compact engine that can act as removal, negation, and fodder for Magicians' Souls for draws. The only drawback is that you cannot activate the effects of a normal summoned monster during the turn you utilize it.
>King's Sarcophagus (Horus)
Main deck engine that revolves around a card of the same name. With no restriction outside of discarding a card, you can dump its archetypal monsters from deck to GY and proceed to summon them for whatever you need (typically this is Xyz plays since it's a direct line into Numeron Dragon, as they're all Level 8 monsters). They can also hold the line completely on their own since for no particular reason, King's Sarcophagus gives them protection, and the monsters have effects when it's removed.
>Goblin Biker
Rank-4 Xyz archetype that function by detaching materials from any Xyz monsters on the field to cheat themselves out. Work with multiple Xyz archetypes as it has no restrictions and as counters to Xyz decks as it can get around effect-immune Xyz monsters by affecting their materials instead.
>Sinful Spoils
What is primarily used as a FIRE engine combo starter since it can search out a Level 1 FIRE monster. It's also good for anything that needs a free Level 7 DARK Spellcaster on the field or a discard, though it's primarily used for its first purpose since we're in a FIRE attribute format. Were it a bit cheaper, I'd use it in my Witchcrafter deck for setup since Diabellestar can be used to stack my GY with effects.
>recently
Why yes; King's Sarcophagus, Goblin Biker, and Sinful Spoils are all recent.
Wanna take a trip down memory lane?
>Drytron
>Impcantation
Both of these are generic ritual support that date as far back as 2018, where in both cases they're able to turbo out the Ritual Monsters, Ritual Materials, and at least one means to get them in your hand. Popularly the Drytron engine was run with Heralds, while Impcantations (being a bit more dated) was run in Blue-Eyes Chaos MAX OTK decks.
>Dogmatika
The primary role for these is as tech options through Fleurdelis and Maximus, but their engine as a whole was used as a means for decks to extend when the game was in a slower state of play. Maximus' role in Invoked/Shaddoll gave them removal options and spot negation alongside Fleurdelis, and Adin was used as a free body for a lot of Rank-4 decks.
>Toons
This is definitely grasping at straws but it has three particular use cases which were competitively viable at some point, one being Exodia Deepdraw engines using Toon Table of Contents and Trade-In off of Blue-Eyes Toon Dragon to thin the deck and generate spell counters for Royal Magical Library, another being in Sky Striker where they'd use it to set up spells in the GY so their entire kit was online, the third being in Cyber Dragons via the same setup ending on Toon Cyber Dragon instead.
Shall I list off more examples? I could start listing off more specific builds, or some type-based setups like Insect, Dino, Cyberse, and very recently Illusion piles. There's also WIND piles, EARTH Machines, stuff using Deep Sea Diva and Atlanteans, Vernusylph... suffice it to say that there's no shortage of options in this regard.
Also, let's not pretend this is a recent trend. I've listed stuff that goes as far back as 2018, which I'll remind you was 6 years ago in case you're waking up from a coma. That's not counting the Toon engine's usage in Exodia Deepdraw of course, which goes further.
In fact, speaking of which,
>Dragon Rulers
A funny, infamously powerful archetype that was so open-ended in its usage that it put Obelisk the Tormentor on the competitive map. It worked with each of its respective elements, anything that ran Dragon monsters, and anything that wanted to Tribute Summon. That's only gotten better in the modern day since, with their recent Limited status on the forbidden/limited list, lets them join in a Dragon Link setup.
>Danger!
A funny series of monsters from 2018 that are primarily used in tandem with Dark World monsters, that can also be used in any deck that's not afraid of random discards to generate advantage. Pack some of the good ones in with copies of Allure of Darkness and/or Dark World Dealings and you've got a miniature high-roller draw engine in just about any deck, that also enables Rank 4/7/8 plays to boot.
>Frogs
Throughout their entire lifetime they've been used for some degenerate shit, from Monarch/Frogs in the heyday to Spright/Frog in the modern day.
I could keep going on listing more examples, but curiously I've noticed that you've not listed a single one yourself. Explain?
You have misinterpreted my posts twice or thrice by now with your moronic desire to defend this mess of a game. What I tried to imply, twice, is that they made dumb decisions, let it wreck havoc in the game's meta, and then, made more dumb decisions to fix the problem. I would have absolutely no problem with the current stuff you are mentioning if that's how they actually behaved when they actually came out, but that's not what happened. It takes years for Konami to realize a mistake they made and when they try to patch things up it's always too late and they only make the situation worse. Anyway, this is my last input on this thread, you clearly love the way too much.
It is you who misunderstands, my friend. I will curse this game for all of its faults, but I will not let people pass objective falsehoods as fact. Archetypes have been designed to work with other cards for ages, to which I've cited examples within the ranges of 6 to 18 years. This such functionality is not new by any stretch.
No no, I'm sure the inarticulate moron who assumed any card with no HOPT would instantly be tier 0 knows the history and meta of the card game he adamantly would never play much better than you. Sit your synchro ass down and listen.
It's called power creep and it's how pretty much every card game makes its money.
If you release a new set of cards, but none of them are better than the old sets, then why would people buy them? You have to constantly make every new set of cards stronger than the last or else you'll stop making money.
Back in the day cards were made to be fun, now they are made to be meta.
Not even meta. Nonsensical israeli garbage.
Like Chaos Angel. I mean really all synchros, but conceptually, do you know how often I only have a one of in it in the extra deck just to ghost reaper it out of opponents decks? And get this... I've seen situations where I can summon it. More than once, and I don't even have tuners out. How? I don't know how. I don't care how. It's all just moronic screaming and I'm just gonna serial killermax on Yugioh players.
If you tell me irl you play Yugioh. I'm kidnapping you, I'm gonna play some goodbye horses on my cd player, and torture you. This is the only rational response to this situation. Because yugioh players won't be reasoned with, Konami is not suddenly gonna just revamp everything and do a bajillion court cases on every design element step by step was a huge mistake that needs to be eradicated and punished, this is the path of least resistance. Just if you play Yugioh, you are unpersoned.
Ah yes. Old cards like Delinquent Duo and Imperial Order. Fun.
I don't think that Gold Sarcophagus of Light, Ashen, or Nouvelles were made to be meta.
Or like I just said "I'd be better off on my own" leave, now everyone is doing tag
You all are like this on purpose
So I'mma be evil back
Assault yugioh players
I think one of the biggest balance failures in Yugioh is the lack of actual gradation in costs. Unless you have a really good ability (Man-eater bug/magician of faith), you will never ever run a card with fewer than 4 stars. And even when you do, the distinction is almost meaningless.
1-4 stars = No tributes
5-6 = one tribute
7-8 = two tributes
It makes everything feel arbitrary. Like why even have 8 stars, when you could just have 3 ranks instead? I haven't played in probably fifteen years, so I would be interested to know if they ever found a meaningful way to make this matter.
level 2 monsters last year were arguably the best overall, and currently level 1 fire monsters are meta.
Stars are used meaningfully for Synchro summoning, as the combination of materials has to have exactly as many stars as the resulting monster. XYZ is essentially a further-boiled version of this, where the monsters have to have the same number of stars to make an XYZ of that rank (their equivalent to stars but it's on the other side of the card and nothing that affects level applies to them). Beyond that, it's just niche card effects like pic related
Funny how nobody tribute summons these days outside board breakers like Sphere Mode. Other than Floo or even True Draco, I can't think of a historically competitive archetype that really focuses on tributing.
I've done it in Virtual World, Swordsoul, and Witchcrafter a handful of times. Came in clutch too because a lot of tech options are only useful against special summoned monsters.
>Tribute summon Madame Verre using a kaiju and a blank'd Haine as material, in attack position
>Opponent doesn't know how the deck functions; Leave her on the field, telegraphing it as a misplay
>Next BP they attempt to crash into her -- chain her effect giving a 4k+ atk boost by revealing 4 unique spells in-hand
>Opponent knows how the deck functions; skip that step and just swing for their heads
Alternate scenario
>Get some monsters on the field in VW
>Opponent activates Book of Eclipse, flipping them all face-down
>No VW targets on the field (I used E-Tele for setup); Tribute Summon Laolao
>Lili in-hand to set up a Chuche for Shenshen
It's definitely situational, but it does come up every now and again
>I can't think of a historically competitive archetype that really focuses on tributing.
Monarchs were infamous for being a competitively viable deck that you could build using 3 of their structure decks. Dragon Rulers also Tribute Summoned Obelisk during their T0 format.
Right, forgot about Monarchs.
I don't trust Konami to revisit tribute summoning in a non-scummy way, but I think it'd be cool to see high level archetypal monsters get powerful normal summon effects again if only to make it a more viable fallback.
>If this card is sent from the field to the GY: Activate this effect; your opponent can apply this card's previous effect
I'd love to pull this off with vampire Vamp against a BE player someday.
Most practical way to do it would probably be Tribute Summoning by card effect. Something along the lines of Sakitama revealing itself in the hand to Normal Summon a Spirit Monster (by card effect).
>You can reveal this card in your hand; Immediately after this effect resolves, Tribute Summon 1 monster. This is a Quick Effect, if you control a monster with the same Type or Attribute as this card's.
Or something simple like
>(Quick Effect): You can reveal this card in your hand; Immediately after this effect resolves, Tribute Summon 1 monster
Since the problem isn't the investment for Tribute Summoning, but the Normal Summon that they demand in order to come out. Effects to conduct a Normal Summon haven't exactly been uncommon these days, so it wouldn't be too out-of-place
As for the effects, I feel they don't have to be blowout effects or anything -- just good effects that make them work running. The Voiceless Voice archetype would actually be a really good reference point, since Skull Guardian's retrain has a relatively fair and balanced spread of effects based on the current game state. They can have strong effects, they just don't always need to be online.
>Tribute Summoning by card effect
How do you feel about birds?
I actually considered building them since everything outside of Advent is de-facto budget deck tier, but I don't like how much they spam normal summons nor the fact that they chain them during both player's turns. It doesn't really seem like it'd be fun for either player unless the one running Floo had an axe to grind.
i think this guy is the most interesting tribute summon in years.
monarchs, especially caius were meta relevant for years. in terms of newer strategies I tribute summoned saronir over a lava golem last week at locals if that counts. really though floo is the most recent meta tribute summoning focused deck as you already said.
tribute summoning is a very scuffed mechanic and it often designed deliberately broken to be able to work naturally in the modern game.
What a bizarre post. Even 15 years ago there were tons of good low level monsters (spirit reaper, marauding captain, sangan, sinister serpent). In the modern game some of the best cards are low level, due to effects and searchability. And their levels are crucial for synchro and XYZ summoning.
>Favorite archetype is Digital Bugs
>It's one of the worst archetypes in the game.
Konami please.....I just...want....my cool beetles...
YGO has a lot of problems but christ these threads are always filled with people who hate the game but know absolutely nothing about it larping and I don't want to fricking defend the game explaining why they're stupid
Im just so fricking tired of Konami designing things so bad and not receiving bomb threats on a daily basis
Like even something as simple as blue eyes jet dragon
>IT BOUNCES LIKE GRAND MOLE REMEMBER GRAND MOLE?
>ALSO IT PICKS ATTACK TARGETS ON THE OPPONENT'S BEHALF
>AND PROTECTS THEM FROM DESTRUCTION
>AND IT RESPAWWWNNNSSS
and this isn't even the worst card out there which in itself is enough to warrant an attack by Hamas.
But the fact is, I don't wanna have to deal with that shit. I don't want to have to base the entire thing off some side quest of keep the homosexual who wants to be bottomed by Kaiba off the fricking jet dragon via somehow removing it and keeping it removed. I shouldn't have to deal with that nor should a company be allowed to make that
>But the fact is, I don't wanna have to deal with that shit.
Then get out of these threads and maybe consider touching grass you ban-evading homosexual.
>Bring my shitty Skull Servant list to the LGS
>Play Zombie World.
>Normal summon a 10k beater
>The sweats at the LGS absolutely hate it because they get hosed by Zombie World or have no answers for something that isn't degenerate combo
>When they do pop off I super Poly their board of zombies and they concede.
There's no better feeling than smashing a metagay with a 14k King of Skull Servants. So hype for the new support in April.
I started running Kaijus again and it makes people absolutely seeth
>THAT DECK DOESN'T RUN KAIJUS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Nothing quite like squashing cards that are worth tens to hundreds with a 17 cent monster
Building SS myself. Decklist or any tips please!
Will post my decklist when I get home for you bud. It's a bit of a budget list.
Sorry for the wait bud. Here's the decklist. It ain't good but it's honest.
The Jack-O-Bolan and Avendread's were given to me by an autistic kid who played at my LGS before he moved away. It'd feel wrong to take them out.
https://ygoprodeck.com/deck/budget-skull-servants-439669
Thanks brother, I have recently added Ultimeat offering myself, going to test if it works or not since the single normal summon is often the death knell of the deck I feel.
I did something like this back in the days of Lightsworn/Blackwing synchro meta with an Ojama-Destiny HERO light/dark deck. Dropping the Plaguespreader Zombie topdeck Ojama Delta Hurricane into Diamond Dude was hilarious, a 2700 ATK beater Defender with Ojama Country up that has no drawback because his effect requires him to be in defense position is also a treat, and then Chaos Sorcerer deleted anything I can't crush with ATK/DEF swapping or mass card destruction. The sweats were side-decking Power Filter just for me by the end of it.
Pic related. The people in charge of Yugioh in the TCG, or NA/Europe have always had an aura of narcissim to them. This guy went on to say that card advantage is stupid and got a job working for Konami.
In terms of what you're talking about, Old yugioh cards used to be based 1:1 on Takahashis original card game. It was all vanilla monsters, all beaters, and the winner was decided by who had the bigger pile of monsters they had defeated. Uraby is one of those original monsters. As it became more mainstay, they started printing cards like Agido. You can find this game by looking up the original Bandai Yugioh cards.
he was already a komoney employee when he made that post, he's been working on yugioh since 2008 and is the current head of R&D for KoA. his reasons for changing number 39's name is hilarious btw.
>https://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=21862862&postcount=915
Tewart being an autistic anti-consumer homosexual doesn't really have anything to do with the difference between Uraby and Agido, especially considering that those were both Japanese cards where he has no power.
are unchained kaiju still good?
>unchained kaiju
Without the -kaiju, yes. They got new support which basically just gave them a bunch of strong redundancy tools, they can do what they do twice as many times per turn effectively. You run it with Tour Guide and Fiendish Rhino Warrior for easy access to their new link-2, and also splash in a miniature d/d/d engine so that you can go into either Wave High King Caesar for his negates or Deviser King Deus Machinex so he can suck up monsters.
From experience, they're quite annoying to play against. You basically need to be able to out-smoke them or specifically have a deck that's able to set up some combination of targeting and destruction immunity (targeting so that Anguish and Rage can't do their link summoning effect)
picrel for a tournament decklist
Oh yeah, and of course, you could always just continue running kaijus in the deck if you want. You could optionally remove Droll and a few copies of Effect Veiler if you wanna make main deck space for them, maybe TTT if that's too expensive for you. Thankfully most of those $50+ cards from the time you're talking about only cost a few bucks at most (in most cases) because Konami aggressively reprinted them. I'd keep Prosperity as a consistency tool if possible, it only costs about 4 bucks at the moment so it's not a particularly hefty investment.