>tfw you realize Pokemon was the first Earthbound-inspired RPG
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>tfw you realize Pokemon was the first Earthbound-inspired RPG
>tfw you realize Pokemon was the first Earthbound-inspired RPG
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toby fox moment
ah, that's why it has the worst fanbase on the planet. makes sense
tajiri wrote and published a well-written article that split apart his criticism of mother into several concise points. all of his suggested solutions form a part of pokemon's red and green's design philosophy
if you've never read it before it's worth hunting down because you will enjoy realizing why certain things in the pokemon games are the way they are
Do you have a link, or do you remember where you read it? Sounds interesting.
https://yomuka.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/mother-1-review-by-pokemon-creator-satoshi-tajiri/
tl;dr He thinks the game should have held the player's hand more.
He more says that the game puts cinematic spectacle ahead of actual gameplay, which makes it not very fun to actually play.
But story isnt necessarily a bad thing, you may not feel very immersed on whats going on, or perhaps you feel bored of the nothingness. For me, knowing thay something is happening lets me feel more in tune with the game and allows me to immerse myself into the role of the protagonist
I honestly blame expensive AAA slop and braindead ARPG/beat em ups with awful story writing trying to make it seem storytelling is a waste of development.
Not everyone cares for story being shoved in your face. Most games pre-PS1 were minimal on plot
so his solution was making a game with much worse gameplay I see
Ironically Pokemon would later fall into these very same trappings when it left his directing hands.
>which makes it not very fun to actually play.
This homosexual just wanna speed run Mother 1 or wanna button mash like in Zeldumb 1.
The game is Dragon Quest 2 hard so once you're past that you're awarded with moments in the game that makes it feel worth while.
Same reason why Sakurai added cutscenes in Subspace Emissary but fricker got filtered by YouTubers uploading shit.
Most people who praise Subspace like the idea and cutscenes but never actually talk about the gameplay and level design which is mediocre and repetitive
I love the levels and boss battles
And the way you unlock characters by meeting them in the story, instead of the usual way (play 100 matches, play 10 hours, etc.)
The boss fights were good and the level design was fine. I'd love to see another crack at it in an engine that isn't the fricking Brawl engine.
Nah it was kino, i liked the platforming parts, i liked the bosses
the biggest problem with subspace was that they created OC enemies and bosses. You have the whole nintendo catalogue in a crossover game and you fill the world with stupid OCs?
>Most people who praise Subspace like the idea and cutscenes but never actually talk about the gameplay and level design which is mediocre and repetitive
This is very true. Almost every time you see everyone gushing over the scenes like Avengers soibois, but the levels were barely talked about due to how awfully designed they were in any difficulty.
>the way you unlock characters by meeting them in the story, instead of the usual way
The latter is less of a slog if you had some friends and internet. You can even collect pngs and CDs in multiplayer too or that shoot em up mini game, the saving grace of Brawl.
The level designs is basically a Kirby game but you're awfully nerfed and have to fight literal tanks that will KO no matter how much you stagger them.
and it gets extremely offensive by the time you reach the Great Maze, which has that awful Amazing Mirror/Mega Man ZX map to navigate with.
As for the bosses, these are well done, but even freaking World of Light can pull this off too. Once Boss Battles are unlocked at the Stadium mode, there's not even a need to look back into SSE beyond 100% it.
Thankfully there's a certain mod that make it a better experience but i rather just boot up my 3DS and play the super-condensed version of SSE levels.
>you're awfully nerfed and have to fight literal tanks that will KO no matter how much you stagger them
stickers
>stickers
pic related
>why does this RPG have an actual story in it
No wonder this franchise is so fricking braindead
kek what a dumbass
I refuse to believe that anyone who has actually played Mother thinks that its overworld is well-designed
Press start to view a map.
Disingenuous. This map does not help one navigate the erratic tangle of identical trees and cliffs comprising the game's overworld.
I played Mother 1, and I didn't felt lost once.
Maybe try to find the magic pike that took you to Magicant, but after I did it was easy peasy.
Plus, you can use the train to move faster, so missing your way from town to town is hardly any difficult.
But maybe it was easy for me because I played Mother 2 and 3, so I was used to the "small boy, big world" aesthetic. Anyway, tank drive and train ride OSTs are based, and plane is also cool.
Its people talking out of their ass, even among Mother fans, Mother 1 is viewed as the worst in the series for a lot of really awful design choices, Mother 2/Earthbound despite being a sequel is in a lot of ways also a do over of similar concepts the first game did, 3 out of the 4 party members are more or less do overs of those same party members from the first as well
it's not so much that's it's well-designed as in "the quality stands out", but as in "it's perfectly serviceable". The only way to get lost in Mother is if you're either a moron or a child. But then again people get fricking lost in Metroid for the NES and say that needs a map so what do I know.
It's not amazing. It unintentionally does a good job at representing the vastness of the rural US and how to looks when you're a kid.
That being said its not impossible to navigate, I don't think it was intended as babies first jrpg like Pokemon or its sequels though.
LOL is this why homosexuals keep shilling shitty romhacks with the Easy Ring?
Some of you aren't even reading the article so I'll post quotes here. He is not saying the game should hold your hand, nor that story in games is a bad thing, nor that games should ideally be played fast or anything like that.
>Take, for example, the oversized map. The map is realistically proportionate with the size of the main characters, and it apparently dazzled a lot of people. In my opinion, a video game is not something that should make its player uncomfortable. There’s no doubt that Itoi intended to portray the towns and forests realistically, but it was so spread out that people found it hard to navigate. If there’s a chance it places a meaningless burden on the player, realism needs to be toned down into a caricature.
Here he is saying that in games, gameplay must take priority over realism of one compromises the other. Nothing more.
>there’s the inadequacy of the information the game provides to the player. Dialogue in an RPG consists of two things: Hints to aid progress in the game, or entertaining lines that add to the game’s color. I hear that the developers ran out of memory halfway through production, so lots of the colorful lines were spared while they chipped despairingly at the hinting ones. Throwing away the hints and keeping the entertainment was Itoi’s clear decision—it makes the game stand out, but without them we’re left with a game that is, in reality, simply not very kind
Here he is saying flavor side content should not be prioritized over the main story content, when there is only room for one of them and the other has to go.
Both are valid takes. And the guy sounds surprisingly less autistic than I expected.
Mother is NOT difficult to navigate or to figure out where to go at ALL. The only difficulty in it (and it is quite a big one I'll admit) is how you have to grind for levels at different spots and just how hard enemies can hit (though that means you have to strategize with defensive PSI even outside of bosses and can't just mash A, a concept Pokémon cannot seem to frickin comprehend)
He is not autistic, you moron
>Throwing away the hints and keeping the entertainment was Itoi’s clear decision—it makes the game stand out, but without them we’re left with a game that is, in reality, simply not very kind
>flavor side content should not be prioritized over the main story content, when there is only room for one of them and the other has to go.
I don't think that criticism is valid when the reason the mother trilogy is beloved so much is because of that charm and flavor. Every other jrpg nobody fricking bothers to read npc text because it's always crpytic boring bullshit.
Meanwhile a very notable feature of Mother and eventually its subgenre of indie motherlikes is the flavor text that people go out of their way to read. People LOVE the ghosts in Mother 3, people LOVE that stupid beatles joke in Onett and people LOVE the cactus description in Undertale
The fricking joey shorts meme is one of the only few lines of dialogue people actually remember because it's the only fricking interesting dialogue in classic pokemon
>And the guy sounds surprisingly less autistic than I expected.
Because he doesn't have autism. Some stupid European woman push that shit amd originally came from a unverified MySpace page.
>There’s a hierarchy to the ecosystem of animals, and the law of nature states that, in general, small creatures are weak and large creatures are strong. We instinctively understand things in this manner, so when a little pile of slime shows up on the screen, we assume it’s weak. When an enormous demon shows up, we stagger back at how strong it looks. In MOTHER, it might be due to the game’s setting in modern America, but the hierarchy of enemies isn’t that clear. The smaller-sized rope enemy is stronger than the Mad Car or Psycho Car, and the Mad Truck and Psycho Truck aren’t as strong as the smaller-sized bear, etc. That makes the map feel as if it has a relatively disorganized distribution.
>He says, and then processes to create Onix
Lol
This explains a lot about the evolution of pokemon games over time. The "open world" aspects of Kanto/Johto so beloved by fans were actually just products of gamefreak's incompetence that got patched out in later gens. You're clearly not meant to go through Rock Tunnel without flash, they just didn't think kids would be smart enough to figure out how to navigate a simple maze in the dark.
>t. moron who misunderstood the article.
He never said non-linearity was inherently bad in his article, he simply stated that game space should serve a function and should not just exist as filler to make the game less navigable.
And frankly I think that's a good point. One of MOTHER's biggest faults it that a lot of the world map is taken up by sprawling, empty fields (something which, incidentally, was improved upon in Earthbound). Hell, that's an issue that still pops up in games, Elden Ring's open world would be way more engaging if there wasn't so much empty space that exists just for the sake of having an open world. If anything, SV's dog shit world design is proof that Satoshi no longer holds any influence over modern Pokemon game design.
A lot of the issues with this thread is that people read "Mother" and think "Earthbound", when Tajiri is talking about Mother 1 specifically.
honestly, the basic issue in this thread is one endemic to the board – illiteracy. this will sound hyperbolic, but if you read about how children are being taught to read nowadays, many of them are being taught by teachers who have basically given up, and are teaching students to a level of fluency that really just lets them read and recognize common words and then just guess at the meaning of the overall sentence. if you're barely fluent in a second language, you'll be familiar with the idea of how you might feel like you're literate enough to carry a basic conversation, yet not enough to actually understand much more than that, you might be able to fake the balance. most american children graduating from high school are, despite the fact tests and SAT scores appear to suggest nothing's actually gone wrong, actually illiterate. this explains why the "ESL" meme on this board is more common than on other boards (most underage board, most affected by this phenomenon), and cases like why
's tl;dr is completely incorrect but sounds right – his thought appears coherent because he uses phrases you and I recognize like "tl;dr" and 'handholding', but is completely disconnected from what the article said.
i am
and this is why i didnt link to the actual article. i knew people who would be interested and capable would find it of their own volition, but if you directly put it in front of the illiterate schoolchildren who comprise the majority of this board's population, they'll necessarily simplify it incorrectly, as they so often do everything else. there's no point giving them this information unless you're also able to spend the time to pre-digest it for them (to avoid them coming to their own conclusion), they cant read, and because they don't have the attention span for it, they won't read after the fact clarifications such as done
here
>Some of you aren't even reading the article
of course they aren't. they literally can't.
Can confirm young people can't read, or even write individual letters anymore (literal 18 year olds with kindergarten handwriting), since I spent about the last 9 or so years around them. They are kind of moronic, and the new education is via youtube, so people rely on copying peer verbal patterns and know nothing about the written style. One common thing they do, is using a word they have read which sounds intelligent, but they don't actually know the meaning of that word. So they use it completely wrong. Another thing that happens in a similar way, is mispronunciation. These things happen all the time with younger people. I shudder to think what English looks like in 20 years.
The teachers having lower standards now makes sense, I inferred that but didn't know.
You inadvertently explained and solved the whole time travel vs. imagination debate. There are people on this board who look at the narrative given by text and what it implies and there are those who look for specific words like "time machine" and "ancient/future" and determine that as the sole descriptor of everything else.
>You can't accurately and succinctly summarize an article, you must write endless unrelated drivel that accomplishes nothing.
get fricked he literally said the game should be more player friendly
Relative to Ganker itself, I maintain that somewhere between 2017-2019 is where the average reading comprehension of this place got irreparably decimated
>Earthbound-inspired
somewhat...?
Structurally and aesthetically the games are borderline identical, the main thing that sets Pokemon apart is the monster catching itself.
Examine everything around that and it's just a slightly less wacky Earthbound.
i can agree that mother played an influence in some elements like art style/gameplay/setting
that said, the other half of it seems to lie more on other games like megaten and dq v to me (especially when it came to the monster catching/battle side of things)
You’re reaching. Why are you attempting to link your franchise with this one? I had thought Mothergays were too prideful to mingle with commoners.
Really?
Both games are set in an analog for the real world with a major focus on central city locations, which house 8 boss fights the game's status screen keeps track of once beaten.
To block your progress, both games feature things like blockades that you need a specific item to clear and dark areas that you need an item to light up.
Most of the dungeons are caves.
Halfway through both games you arrive in a big city whose big landmark is a huge department store unlike anything else in the game - both of these will prominently feature an encounter with mobsters too, which eventually leads to you climbing a huge skyscraper that serves as their main base of operations.
Another notable location in both is a big power plant overrun by slime monsters.
Towards the back half of both games you have to trek through the sea in order to make it to one of the last three major bosses.
Then, right before the end you go back to your hometown as one final pit stop before the finale.
At the very end of you fight the rival character that's been one step ahead of you causing trouble the whole way.
>Most of the dungeons are caves
>Mt. Moon
>Diglett's Line (being generous here)
>Rock Tunnel
>Seafoam Islands
>Victory Road
>Cerulean Cave
6 caves
>Viridian Forest
>Rocket Hideout
>Pokémon Tower
>Silph Co.
>Pokémon Mansion
>Power Plant
6 noncaves
Also
>a big power plant overrun by slime monsters
Grimer wasn't added to the power plant until Yellow.
>To block your progress, both games feature things like blockades that you need a specific item to clear and dark areas that you need an item to light up.
Wow I can't believe the Adventure of Link is literally Pokemon
You didn't mention one of the things that stuck out to me about both.
The PC in Pokemon is just a more straight forward version of the phone: both are available in rest spots, both give you access to item storage and both let you call your dad so he can give you money or items.
most Mothergays don't play the games, just pure Smashgays trying to larp as hardcore gaming enthusiasts.
You can easily see this in display when you catch some Smash clown b***h about Ness' moveset, not knowing why they went with this direction instead of a boring cleric moveset.
As a mothergay the thing I b***h about most is the music in smash. Where are all the goddamn battle themes? It's a fighting game why did they add "smiles and tears" and "because I love you? Where's dangerous foe, the hippie theme, battle against a machine, otherworldly foe, kraken of the sea, pokey means business, weird foe, drago?!,piggy guys, serious! or strong one?
>Nice accurate Bein Friends remix, Sakurai. Would be a shame if i told you had to pay up royalties.
because Sony Music owns like all the Earthbound OST
>It's a fighting game why did they add "smiles and tears" and "because I love you?
That was an amazing addition and worked wonderfully on the stage it was written for (Magicant, which itself is one of my favorite stages in Smash).
The real crime btw is that Battle Against a Weird Opponent isn't in Smash
Ultimate's composers have clear biases for certain series. Look at how many new remixes Mega Man and Fire Emblem got and then look at how many Sonic, Pac-Man, and Star Fox got.
That's interesting but, in this case, bias isn't the reason why Sonic and Mother don't have more remixes in Smash.
except it lacks the single thing that made Mother Mother and still remembered to this day: the bittersweet story revealing itself slowly under the overall wacky representation of real modern life.
the ending of Mother and the battle against Gyiyg may very well make you cry. No pokémon plot has ever made anyone feel an emotion that strong in any of the games.
They tried on X/Y with all that AZ and Floette arc
>tfw you realize Pokemon was the first Earthbound-inspired Shin Megami Tensei-inspired RPG
ftfy
Wouldn't be Megaten? I feel Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei was the main inspiration. Or did SMT released before the first pokemon?
>Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei (Novel) - March 31, 1986
>Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei (Video Game) - September 11, 1987
>Shin Megami Tensei 1 - October 30, 1992
Given the length of Red and Green's development, inspiration from both Megami Tensei and Shin Megami Tensei are possible.
How new are you?
Some of the people that worked on Mother 2 went on to work on Pokemon, on top of that, 1 /3 of The Pokemon Company is made up of Creatures Inc, alongside Game Freak and Nintendo to make the other 2/3
Creatures Inc was made as a successor to Ape Inc, with staff going over to Creatures
So in a lot of ways you can view Pokemon as a spiritual successor to the Mother series, arguably Red and Mewtwo could be seen as extremely loosely based on Ninten/Ness and Giegue/Giygas, but I highly doubt that was intentional
Pokemon as a whole was created from an interest in collecting bugs irl, and the Dragon Quest series, while the idea of forming a team with monsters originated from the Shin Megami Tensei series
Could also be seen as a nod to their connection that Pokemon Trainer and Lucas are paired up during Brawl's Subspace story mode, but who knows if that was even intentional
>arguably Red and Mewtwo could be seen as extremely loosely based on Ninten/Ness and Giegue/Giygas, but I highly doubt that was intentional
It clearly was.
In fact, in gen 1 when you didn't pick a name for your character yet, internally your character is named NINTEN
I think that was a coincidence, since the internal name for the rival was SONY
I mean it's that + the design + Mewtwo's design + it being a psychic type
>more reaching
technically speaking it was dragon quest, not earthbound, the entire trading mechanic at least.
Both games are ripoffs of Dragon Quest
>Mother 1
DQ2 romhack
>Mother 2
DQV romhack
>Mother 3
Caravan Heart romhack
>Pokemon GBC
portable Slapstick clone
Mother 2 & 3 lack the monster taming that is in DQV and Caravan Hearts. Therefore they cannot be romhacks of either game.
When I first player Earthbound 10 years ago or so, I noticed the evident influence it had on pokémon's general aesthetic and in its gen 1 world
Which is interesting because pokémon also was heavily influenced by Dragon Quest in monster design and rpg elements
And by Akira Toriyama in original art direction
Mother owns, but babies have a hard time. It's my personal favourite in the series.
Mother 2/EB is great duh.
Mother 3 is overrated and not a Mother game, it's just a boring handheld cookiecutter JRPG shadow of what it could have been on 64DD.
I played earthbound on an emulator back in the day, years after I first played pokemon, and I absolutely loved how similar the games were. And I still have a fondness for those games, so much so that I main Ness on smash bros.
Didn't Mother and Pokemon share some staff?
For you
Bumping because Pokemon being inspired by MOTHER was common knowledge and no surprise that today's batch of Pokemon 'fans' are unaware of it.
Now pokemon is nothing like earthbound
And that is actually a good thing, it broke away and became its own beast.
in a bad way
Now it's generic anime game
What's funny is that the Mother inspiration isn't just limited to gen 1. DPPt's plot is heavily inspired by Mother 3's too
Gen 4 and 5 had a lot of mother 3 references
>DPPt's plot is heavily inspired by Mother 3's too
>Gen 4 and 5 had a lot of mother 3 references
>True villain of Mother 3 is a sadist-turned-nihilist who assigns a guy with no emotions to pull all the Needles sealing a dragon god so that it will awaken without a heart and destroy everything
>Before that his lieutenant brings ruin and ennui to a once-utopian world by making public speeches to convince people of the virtues of capitalism, all while secretly abusing animals on the side
>Burgh dresses like a more camp version of Duster
I mean, if you squint.
Also Mother 3's protagonist is named after the concept of bringing light, and so are DPPt's protagonists
...which is why DPPt's male MC is named Lucas in english
>the popular pokemon game is actually a copy of this other jap game that copied western mechanics and themes
I didn't know mothergays where this desperate, go join the DQgays in the corner of game that are only relevant in Japan. I would say go to Japan but they hate you.
If Pokemon had went with its original idea that Pokemon came into existence later on, where now its pretty obvious they always existed in their world, it would have been a fun head canon to say the Mother series lead into Pokemon, since Lucas remakes the universe of Mother at the end of Mother 3
But that absolutely can't be the case with Pokemon's established lore
Also this does a good job of breaking down their connections both in and out of universe, while making it clear it means frick all
To be fair, Lucas probably rewrote the entire timeline, so it's still a possibility.
That being said i don't think people like evil teams would exist in Lucas' world.
I thought the ending was that all of them died and ended up in heaven
You can move around, and after a while they all start talking, the whole point was reshaping the world via the one that pulled out the most needles, so no, they were all fine at the end, living in the new reality Lucas created for them
I haven't played the game in a few years
But eventually the doorknob can be found, I guess that kind of makes it obvious that they didn't go to heaven, maybe the dragon somehow created a magicant world for all of them to live in, since the ending shows the island being destroyed
According to the legend, whoever pulled the 7 needles would have the dragon's power to reshape the Earth.
Pokey's plan was destroy the world. Why? Because he was bored. He reached godhood, and only wasted it in reaching the ultimate point of decadence.
Anyway, Lucas and his team goes in, pulls needles, the world changes. Pokey's "Masked Man" also pulls the needles, but because he has no mind or reason, the world probably would've stayed the same? He doesn't have a heart anymore, and it would've been interesting to see if he still had it (if beta bosses are to go by, Lucas' brother was still concious, but he no longer had control of his soul).
Anyway, at the end the game gives you a choice (but it doesn't matter because Lucas does it anyway), and the last needle us pulled out. The dragon is awakened, and looks like it's the end. But a miracle happened: everybody is alive, and safe, and in a new land.
Lucas created a new world, and Mother 3 comes to a happy end. Lucas saved everyone, and a new world is open to everyone. Hell, I bet even the dragon is happy he got to be free rather than sealed.
I always felt when everybody goes "thank you [PLAYER]", the last guy to thank you is Lucas. Was a sad tale? Yes, but like we knew: No crying until the end.