Hi tg, book noob here. I'm in the state of getting introduced to 40k from YouTubers to now actually getting into the books myself.
I recently read the bit where Nathaniel Garro informs Dorn of the heresy and And while I don't dislike Dorn as a character I just wanted to slap him right there. Jumping straight to violence when offended nearly killing him and then throwing a temper tantrum destroying his room like a toddler after being proven Garro was right.
For my own personal catharsis, is there any lore or canon moments where he one way or another gets forced to admit he was wrong / be vulnerable etc instead of either quiet introspection that he tells nobody about or rage? I know quiet self doubt is part of his character I mean actually confronting it explicitly with another person.
Did he ever even show any remorse to garro or just "heres our battle strategy" like he didn't just completely frick up nearly killing the guy trying to save the imperium?
I don't have a hateboner for dorn, just in that moment and it would be cool if he returned more level headed like the lion did.
Thank you in advance.
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A character is only ever going to be as smart as the person who writes them. Your typical BL writer probably never served in the army or interacted with top military brass, and so their perception of how such people would behave is mostly derived from the behaviors of their usual circle of acquaintances, who may indeed throw tantrums in response to bad news.
My main gripe with HH novels is that 18 superhuman genetically engineered generals are depicted as bunch of squabbling schoolchildren, whose successes mostly come from individual cheap "gotcha!" moments than from grindy protracted work. Not saying there aren't exceptions, but the lack of authors' experience with real military matters is painfully obvious.
pretty much
Pretty much, this is why fluff was better when there was less of it
GW books are around fan fiction levels of quality, even the best authors say Dan abnett arent good and would never come close to people who feature in nebula or Hugo award competitions
Dorn is at the head of an actual warrior caste. No one in the modern world has interacted with someone like him.
>woah man what do you mean the genetic cyborg mutant chimeras in the form of humans aren’t actually human
Primarchs are supposed to be autistic buttholes though, they are smart but they are not wise nor are good people, that fit the setting premise as well, they can't be replaced because they are too competent at being soldiers but they always frick up everything politically and socially.
If the Emperor and the Primarchs were all perfect the story would be boring.
There's a long way between satisfying pay of and being a mary sue though.
I've heard as much but can't confirm it, examples?
None. I made an admittedly poorly worded version of this thread last weekend that got flooded with shitposts and arguments from someone upset it wasn't about minis. I reworded it and posted it on a week day and at a different time of day and suddenly it was actually quality discussion so I think I filtered out the kids or obsessive mini fans or whatever threadshitting (and I don't say kids to be self rightous, I mean because it stopped when it wasn't weekend). There doesn't need to be more because the thread is actually functional.
>There's a long way between satisfying pay of and being a mary sue though.
Yes but the Primarchs are not supposed to be balanced like a normal human being, it's more interesting to have demigods that are way more flawed than the average person, that's what makes the setting work and that's what makes people interested. Mythology is basically that, deities that clearly suffer from terrible paranoia, anger issues and ego that's why the world is not a paradise because even though they are powerful enough to solve any mortal problem they can't or don't want to.
>it's more interesting to have demigods that are way more flawed than the average person, that's what makes the setting work and that's what makes people interested.
That's a really good point, but isn't it a bit headcannon? (Frick me that sounded way more condescending than I wanted it to, not meant like that.)
>call others children
>IS THERE ANY SCENE WHERE THE BOOK MAN TURNS TOWARDS THE BOOK CAMERA AND SAYS HIS BAD BEHAVIOR WAS WRONG? I NEED THE BOOK TO SAY HE WAS WRONG
OP deserves to get continuously bullied for being this emotionally fragile over badly written sci-fi
>You see the Emperor put morons in charge of the legions ON PURPOSE
>BL is actually really good
Go back to r/40klore.
>polythiestic creation myth about a war between gods and their children has fatally flawed deities being undone by their own shortcomings instead of a bunch of autist robots doing cold logic
How is this weird to you? Do they not make you read the Iliad in school anymore?
Their only flaw is the universal flaw of being moronic and autistic. Give them actual flaws that cause them to fail, Fulgrim being proud and not taking an opponent seriously, Dorn being overly rigid in his thinking and losing to an inferior but more flexible opponent. One of the best stories of primarchs is the bit about Guilliman killing Alpharius, he was forced to essentially admit Alpharius was right by using his own tactics against him, and Alpharius was further vindicated when his fluid and decentralized command structure led his legion to victory after his death.
>actual flaws that cause them to fail
This happens constantly. There are 60 books of this happening.
>Their only flaw is the universal flaw of being moronic and autistic.
Ok now you are just saying bullshit now, Konrad was straight up delusional that's why he ended up a superhero rather than a more pragmatic way to save his planet, Perturabo was bipolar and suffered from trying to force himself to act like a machine for the greater good until he was emotionally exhausted, Sanguinius suffered from deep depression because he knew he was defective and due to copying his genes all the millions of brave young soldiers who trusted him and turned into blood angels would be doomed to get insane and have a terrible and shameful death like him.
Each Primarch had they very own flaws and problems and ended up dealing with them on their own way, Guilliman is the opposite of an autistic guy, in fact he's constantly pointing out when everybody around him is acting silly. Trying to say that all primarchs have the same flaw is like saying every greek, egyptian or nordic god flaw was just "moronic and autistic"
>Konrad was straight up delusional that's why he ended up a superhero rather than a more pragmatic way to save his planet
So autistic and moronic? I like Curze but even I can tell that he's written like an idiot, especially with the weird story beat of him seething about the Emperor never telling the other primarchs that he was ordered to do fricked up terrorist shit, as if he wasn't capable of doing it himself or one of his brother's wouldn't ask the obvious question if Curze was sanctioned to do that.
>Perturabo was bipolar and suffered from trying to force himself to act like a machine for the greater good until he was emotionally exhausted
again, autistic and moronic.
>Sanguinius suffered from deep depression because he knew he was defective and due to copying his genes all the millions of brave young soldiers who trusted him and turned into blood angels would be doomed to get insane and have a terrible and shameful death like him.
how is this a flaw?
By this logic any mental ilness is autism or being moronic.
Several if not most of character flaws in fiction are based on mental ilness of some kind.
characters being mentally ill does not suddenly make them profound or well written and I don't ever recall Perturabo being diagnosed with bipolar disorder, this sounds like a tumblr kid projection since the only two primarchs that I recall to have been stated to have anything close to a mental illness are Curze who is described as a generic "crazy lunatic" but suffers from psychic schizophrenia and Angron who is missing parts of his goddamn brain.
Peterabo is bi-polar because he is consistently written, not due to any intentional work on the authors or editors part.
That's your interpretation of Perturabo, Perturabo is consistently written to be incredibly petulant, immature, and quick to anger.
In terms of characters being memed as having disorders (not serious analysis) I'm slightly disappointed more people don't say lorgar has bpd.
I mean look at his relationship with his gods.
"well written" does not mean "they do what I imagine I would have done if I were asked to make the right choice with my gods eye view of the setting and access to the wiki"
you have autism
Well written also does not mean having super human hyper intelligent demi gods act like schoolyard children
That's what happens at every mythoogy, Horus Heresy is supposed to be ancient mythology in space.
Alexander the Great killed an officer who'd saved his life in a drunken rage
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleitus_the_Black
It's clear you've never read any history, or mythology, or personally interacted with any leaders of important organizations, so what are you basing your belief that powerful people never get mad on?
>what are you basing your belief that powerful people never get mad on?
Who ever said this in the entire thread, when did anyone ever say this? You're making a strawman.
Humanity exaggerated is the Greek Pantheon but the Primarchs don't feel like that at all, this would be fine if 40k was like a greek myth but when it gets elaborated on in the Horus Heresy, the sheer ridiculousness of the primarchs can't be avoided. That's really the main issue with 40k lore as a whole.
The primarchs are also humanity exaggerated. They're larger than life demigods with exaggerated emotions that grew up in exaggerated monoculture planets and have hyper exaggerated fighting styles.
Nta but you did imply the emotional reactions were SOO fantastically out of place for someone in a leadership role that it broke immersion even in a silly scifi story. He got you, better to just admit it and move on than try to save face and avoid downvotes
Who ever said this in the entire thread, when did anyone ever say this? You're making a strawman.
>Your typical BL writer probably never served in the army or interacted with top military brass, and so their perception of how such people would behave is mostly derived from the behaviors of their usual circle of acquaintances, who may indeed throw tantrums in response to bad news.
Literally the first reply says military brass doesn't throw tantrums
Why would I care about the first reply?
>Who ever said this in the entire thread
>why would I care about the first reply?
I accept your concession
There is a difference between flaws and bad writing.
Iskander was literally two blips above a fricking cave man
Pay of reeeeeee
You have a very positive view on the maturity and coolheadedness of military commanders through human history.
But all of warhammer is supposed to be legends and lore. And Horus Heresy is super legendish. Characters should be flawed. Especially the brass, even the super-being that is the Emperor himself. Kinda like the Iliad and simliar stories.
>You have a very positive view on the maturity and coolheadedness of military commanders through human history.
This
>Kinda like the Iliad and similar stories.
And also this. People in the Illiad and Odyssey do very clearly irrational things in dangerous military situations and then suffer for it.
We knew the Horus Heresy ended in ten thousand years of misery and failure before the first word was written, why is there so much butthurt that the men in charge of things that in fact failed?
>and so their perception of how such people would behave is mostly derived from the behaviors of their usual circle of acquaintances, who may indeed throw tantrums in response to bad news.
>and so their perception of how such people would behave is mostly derived from the behaviors of their usual circle of acquaintances, who may indeed throw tantrums in response to bad news.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton_slapping_incidents
Dorn has rage issues under that cool and calculated exterior. Also, you have to keep in mind what Garro proposes is ridiculous - a Primarch turning traitor against his brothers and Emperor.
I know but would still be the cathartic to see some "comeuppance" for a frustrating moment or to see him mellow out like the lion. Dosen¨t have to be as extreme as "break him and build him back up again" but I would love the character development of a less rigid Dorn, even if he still has flaws. Just something with a simmilar feel to the lion redeeming the fallen dark angels if that makes sense.
Is this as much about military as it is about the 40k verse being pretty casual with throwing lives around?
I thought the manchild nature of the primarchs was part of their flaws.
After seing someone point out how primarchs speedrun development I actually dicked around with some fanfic idea of half primarch children (Yes this is peak fanfic, shoot me) essentially being slower growing more well adjusted primarchs. Perhaps being docile to a fault as well, with some in-universe characters wondering if it was programmed in for the purposes of protecting humanity after the crusade or some shit, but that was more for the irony of Dorn having a kid who looks exactly like him and is the biggest goddamn doormat who would willingly agree with people in arguments where he knows is right just to get them to stop talking while his father is TOO stubborn.
I'm picturing they would grow (both physically and mentally) at the same rate of a normal human being and it would just continue after a baseline would reach adulthood with them essentially being normal until age 21 and slowly developing into "full primarchs" the years after. Thus allowing them to grow up normally and be much more grounded and well adjusted (not to mention having non-shit parents who could slowly ease them into whatever psychic potential they may have, I don't think they would get put on the black ships)
>mellow out like the lion
The Lion never really mellows out. During the Imperium Secundus he's somewhat more reasonable because even he doesn't want to disappoint Sanguinius *and* Guilliman is watching him like a hawk.
Why is GW pushing Dorn as the greatest Primarch ever?
They are turning the IF in 30k what the ultramarines are in 40k, the poster boys. As such, their primarch has to be the best ever as well.
Not OP, and I'm still relatively early into the series (on the 4th book right now) but Dorn did make a good impression on me in, I think it was the first novel. I am very much excited to learn more about him as a result, and it's not surprising to hear any of this even as a newb.
They're all moronic in their own unique way.
How many times are you going to make threads begging for catharsis because you're butthurt a character in a story you heard about second hand was rude?
Quit spamming your blog feeling bullshit about being a lore tertiary.
No one cares about your personal catharsis. Get killed.
Kek this dude be writing about his toy soldier fanfiction like it means anything
>For my own personal catharsis
But every primarch WAS punished for being buttholes. They all either died, were brainwashed by demons or were forced to publically apologize and aknowledge that it was all their fault.
Dorn lost most of his brothers, his father, most of his space marines including his best friends, had a humiliating defeat against Perturabo, had a humiliating rescue by Guilliman stopping his suicidal honor duel to save his ass and make him look like an immature idiot. Dorn aknowledged that he had serious emotional issues and was a jerk to people that didn't deserve it and that helped the heresy happen.
In the end he died because there was no other primarchs left to help him defend Terra, so he had to sacrifice himself in a suicide mission and was brutally killed.
>Dorn aknowledged that he had serious emotional issues and was a jerk to people that didn't deserve it and that helped the heresy happen.
Did he do so explicitly or just in his own head again, if explicit then when?
Ive seen the excerpt where Khorne tempts him in the dessert and it's fricking great. But it's all so, internal. If "external" do you have any specific examples of scenes?
Exactly, contrary to how some anons in the thread interpreted it, I don't want him to be squeaky clean Mary sue, I just want things to have pay off.
It's been a while but I think he does admit it at one point but Dorn isn't really about the big external displays of pathos. It's more others seeing him as 'tired' or worn down as the war progresses. Bobby G gets more external stuff in the plague war books.
Do you have sorta idea where to look for it.
I love smug perty so much. Yeah the iron cage fricks dorn but is it just internal self hatred and/or rage or does he ever show his doubt to anyone else? again, I am a book noob and 40k literature is fricking wast so I don't really know where the frick to look for something like this.
He acted in a way his old rigid self wouldn't have and adjusted his behavior based on what he learned. I wouldn't mind Dorn coming out on top like the lion as long as it felt earned. Like the person in a familiy/friend group who truly understands and cares for your concerns and has been trough some shit as well and is deeply capable so you go to them because you trust them to be a good leader and take everyone into account. Maybe not all the way into that because that's not him but at least aspects of it. A "break him down and build him back up" character arc where he ends up (atleast somewhat) on top but gets his head out of his ass upon/if returning would be fricking kino.
There is a mini somewhere, but I can't find it (I thought it was in one of the comments of the link below but crtl-f shows nothing) of a battle hardened looking dorn with an eyepatch and bionic arm I would love for that to be him upon returning and more mature.
I want him to break.
I might as well go all in: reddit is a shithole that I don't recomend browsing on a regular basis but the discussion in this post is great
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/125jtqr/the_end_and_the_death_part_1_rogal_dorn_is/
Why live
Rogal Dorn isn't going to frick you.
he hasn't yet granted but past performance doesn't necessarily indicate future results
>For my own personal catharsis, is there any lore or canon moments where he one way or another gets forced to admit he was wrong / be vulnerable etc instead of either quiet introspection that he tells nobody about or rage?
It is quite a bit later on in the series but yes he does. There's a whole bunch of stuff about the strain of it all getting to him, though it's about 60 books in the future. The 1dGanker page on Dorn has a decent interpretation of his character if you want to read into it a bit.
>For my own personal catharsis, is there any lore or canon moments where he one way or another gets forced to admit he was wrong / be vulnerable etc instead of either quiet introspection that he tells nobody about or rage? I know quiet self doubt is part of his character I mean actually confronting it explicitly with another person.
>Did he ever even show any remorse to garro or just "heres our battle strategy" like he didn't just completely frick up nearly killing the guy trying to save the imperium?
Nope he just goes on to live as an oblivious moron.
HOWEVER
>whole thread of autists unable to differentiate between different emotions and flaws calling all those flaws identical autism
lol
You should not question a Primarch? Who do you think you are.
Garro is a fricking deserter and deserved what he got anyway.
>Hi tg
Plebbit is that way
homosexual
Someone mentioned dorn apologizing to sigismund at some point, anyone know more about that?
also, bump
If that happened then I'm burning my entire collection of Imperial Fists
Didn't Dorn apologized to Oriax Dantalion instead?
So fricking close