Wouldn't it make more sense if the healer was also the tank? After all, if I was an enemy, my first priority to target would naturally be the healer. Getting rid of them first seems essential for anything else.
As it stands now the "tank" would actually be lowest priority to any logical enemy. First priority is healer, second priority would be enemies that dish out a lot of damage. Also I think its odd that mages are DPS. Once again if I'm an enemy I'm gonna go for the mages really fast.
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in WoW the tank can basically sustain themselves and the healer is there to top everyone off after the obligatory AoE damage ability.
>tank takes x% of everyone's damage as a x% reduced damaged
How to instantly bore me to death by your game
Unfortunately the holy trinity "works" and no MMO has managed to escape it without getting rid of raids entirely. FF14 is okay because all classes are basically DPS if everyone's competent. Trying to examine it "logically" like you're doing is moronic and autistic because it's a game and enemies dont think.
14 feels so scripted and dependent on individual positioning that it doesn't really need a tank role. It would be more interesting without it.
You definitely need a tank for trash pulls in dungeons.
Runescape doesn't have the trinity at all as it predates WoW.
It's exclusively because of overhead prayers, otherwise we would've ended up with food sharing or better heal spells on lunars
It wasn't necessary to have all of those roles at first. You could brute force and heal/shield through most everything initially.
There was a shift though, the playerbase went to multiclienting entire teams and the bosses became much more puzzle like.
Runescape doesn't have the trinity because support mechanics basically don't exist in the game and they can't design anything to expect dedicated support. Barbarian Assault is the only group content where you have dedicated support and combat roles. I actually think it's pretty fun when you're not saddled with morons.
Dofus did it
dofus/wakfu have healers, tanks, positioners, and damagers, along with other styles of character, but its turn based strategy so they have more room for things like this
Lost ark has healers as the tankiest ones around, though even they rarely want to be eating damage if they don't have to, mostly everything can be dodged, also arguably the best raids in any mmo.
>mostly everything can be dodged
as gameplay should be
shame it's p2w and solved
>no MMO has managed to escape it without getting rid of raids entirely
And what's the problem with that? Can you name a single MMO where raids were actually good and fun because they were raids? Like in WOW raiding cities was fun but that's not a "real" raid. To me it seems like the only reason why raids are a thing is to gate you from items because you compete for them with more people, except now MMOs include pity system so you can still get your item from some kind of raid token.
>no MMO has managed to escape it without getting rid of raids entirely
Lots of Korean MMOs skip the tank and only have DPS and support roles.
and they're boring as shit because of it
how does adding a tank role make it more fun?
>no MMO has managed to escape it
Wizard101
This isn't even true, ice wizards were designed as pseudo tanks with higher HP and better defensives while life wizards are obviously healers
you see, whenever an mmo deviates, people say it isn't an mmo
The problem is anything more complicated than that makes creating a party more and more difficult. Especially if certain roles are then considered "less optimal" and therefor banned from parties and you can basically never play with other people again.
It's why FF14 became so homogenized: because in the endgame certain bosses started to have fixed team layouts that were "optimal". Anything else was banned.
If anything I think the archetypes should be renamed because the NAMES of them already dictate what they are supposed to do.
"Tank" implies they soak up damage. Let's name them something like "damage mitigators" instead. Their job is to PREVENT the rest of the party from taking damage. There are more ways to do that than just being a bullet sponge. So I.e. an Illusionist that places illusions that the enemies then attack instead of the players, but the Illusionists themselves are squishy as any other mage.Or they can place shields that just absorb all damage. Or they are dodge based. Normally squishy they just rarely get hit.
Instead of Healer think "mistake fixer" if taking damage, especially from AoEs is a mistake of a player it's their job to "fix" that mistake... maybe they can "turn back time" so the attack is undone and hits again giving another chance to dodge it entirely.
Funny, UO did it.
>make monster attack only player who aggroed it
yeah, trully a mystery why no one used it since aggro system was invented
>since aggro system was invented
I like how you try to shit on UO system by bringing up another moronic system, where monsters attack the high armor guy simply because he shouted at them.
>because it's a game and enemies dont think.
Enemies are specifically programmed to re-enact shitty 90s AI because that's what supports the trinity which the game is designed around. There are other games where enemies will specifically try to figure out who's weak and go for them first.
Vermintide 2 has 4 players missions that work a somewhat a wow dungeon, ther eis no real healer and clearing missions is infinitely more fun than clearing a wow dungeon. And it doesnt even benefits from stuff wow dungeon has like more bosses, cool loot, more quests and lore shit
the tank gameplay means usualyl that you dont dodge and just stay here while DPS also have nothing to dodge since either the mobs are supposed to hit the tanks, or the damaged is supposed to be healed by healers.
so you end up with boring gameplay stand there and do nothing but generate aggro, boring healer gameplay (heal laule) and boring DPS gameplay
to be fair healer is the least boring because it can be pretty tense, require strong managa management and be difficult to focus on mechanics plus healing at the same time
not every game has to be the same. you re saying no MMO has done xyz but the simple answer is that not a single great MMO has ever released since WoW in 2004
>Trying to examine it "logically" like you're doing is moronic and autistic because it's a game and enemies dont think.
They do in PvP.
BDO only has DPS
The original mmo concept did not have a trinity. Wow isn’t the progenitor of mmos, xiv isn’t even the first mmo square made. Modern mmos also aren’t good.
DCUO solved the trinity problem over a decade ago but no one ever mentions it.
nobody played it
That doesn't change the fact that they figured it out over a decade ago.
give me a qrd no the DC mmo
It's an MMO that takes place in the DCUniverse.
What do you want to know about it?
Combat is 1 part action game with full action combat and combos and shit, 1 part MMO CD based abilities that you fire off whenever they're ready.
There's only like 1,000 people that still play it becuase it's old as frick and barely ever gets updates.
>It's an MMO that takes place in the DCUniverse.
thats sick
>Ff14 is ok
The problem is gameplay like ff14, it's far from "ok" and never will be. Tab target is beyond trash, 2.5 second tab target is horrible.
Every "solution" boils down to just making everyone a DPS monkey and removing all strategy and teamwork from group content.
>tanks
git gud noob.
reminder that everyone does DPS, the 3rd role in the trinity was CC
i miss support/cc roles so much
RIFT had some pretty neat support specs, but sadly the game went f2p and started shitting microtransactions and pay2win everywhere, and the game is literally dead despite the devs trying to act like it isn't
forth roll was puller
frick meant role
in a lot of cases supports did pulling duty as their dps was in general worse
like bards in ffxi and eq
Back in those days the roles weren't so rigid. Some classes were better suited for tanking, or damage, or support, but there was still a lot of flexibility.
DCUO at least got that right
>every class had dps plus a support role of tank/healer/cc that regenerated team "mana" by applying debuffs
>you can just switch and start dpsing if your role isn't currently needed
Guild Wars solved the holy trinity ages ago by just not making the AI moronic.
If the AI will bash its face against a "tank", if your game has "taunts" that force enemies to attack your "tank" then you have a SHIT GAME and that's all there is to it.
Guild Wars did have the trinity though. It just made tanking less formalized.
>Guild Wars did have the trinity though. It just made tanking less formalized.
It didn't. There was no tank/dps/healer, there was frontline/midline/backline
Bosses should be able to taunt players
On Guild Wars (and GW2), they can. Basically every mechanic available to players is also available to enemies, and often times every player is expected to handle their own tanking and their own healing (but there's still usually 2-4 players in a raid group of ten playing "utility" roles instead of pure damage roles) so boss fights are based around understanding the encounters mechanics, player positioning, and teamwork instead of just "did the healer put enough healing numbers on the tank while the rest put damage numbers on the boss"
>Guild Wars solved the holy trinity ages ago by just not making the AI moronic.
>just stand on a corner and let the mobs stack up on the tank
I love Guild Wars but don't say that the trinity didn't work there. Even odd builds like the classic Barrage/pet/Orders team works by tanking and nuking, just not using traditional roles
But yeah it was possible to do your own thing. Example: https://youtu.be/OX2LM1UOGVU
>I love Guild Wars but don't say that the trinity didn't work there.
It worked but it was very suboptimal, hence I say they solved the holy trinity by making it not a holy trinity anymore and instead just another team build (and usually a bad choice).
In the time you spent setting up your "tank" in position and getting your "nukers" to start firing off spells, a build running on the more dominant paradigms such as having a few melee DPS characters (not tanks) with a bit of Necromancer support (such as Mark of Pain) would already have killed everything, as would a casterball.
Guild Wars 2 does this with the Minstrel prefix, max buffs, max healing including self-healing, added HP and armor, considered so overpowered in PvE that most healers take higher-DPS stats instead. Also, most healing and buffs are AoE so you only need one healer per 5.
wish they'd just get rid of the heal b***h. tired of waiting to do dungeons/raids because no one wants to heal. just make healing the tank and dps' own responsibility.
tanking is just decreasing the damage your party takes
dpsing is just increasing the damage your party deals
healing is just restoring damage your party takes
the holy trinity is just health bars existing
Thread should have ended here.
Nooo it's all an abstract math problem, I hate math!
facts
missing positioner
It's like it forces cooperation or something. My brain can't compute this argh.
the tank is throwing you around and being a fricking dick who's keeping you from ever reaching the healer or dps
This image always reminds me of Battle for Wesnoth.
me too
>Melee Damage Class
>Ranged Damage Class
>Set-up/Burst Damage Class
>DoT/Poison Damage Class
>Damage Reduction Class / Protector
>Tank
>Healer
>Buffer
>Debuffer
>Summoner
>Positioner
The MMO hendecagoninity
based and I'm not just saying that because it was my first mmo
Sounds like a nightmare, even with a party finder.
>Waaaa I can't come up with tactics that work on the fly based on the situation and my group composition I need to follow what a youtuber told me to do please don't make me actually have to think instead of brainlessly repeating thing I have already done.
What do you people even get out of these games? I'm genuinely curious.
I can't keep my attention on a game for more than five minutes if it doesn't involve some level of mental engagement. Either having to learn the game and its systems, or having to come up with a strategy that works to beat the current mission/objective using the classes, player skill, and equipment my group has available. It's the reason I go into most games blind and avoid exposing myself to any online content until I've finished them, because finishing them only has meaning, and is only engaging, if I do it myself. It's the difference between a discovery and an inevitability. Exploration and expectation.
And yet my understanding of how most people play MMO's is they just
>Look up best class for what they want to do.
>Look up best build for that class.
>Look up best gear for that build.
>Grind for three actual years.
>Look up how to beat raid boss for the new best gear.
It's literally a shopping list. A series of boxes you're ticking sequentially. No engagement, no thought, no problem solving. Brainless, repetitive, mind numbing. Do you guys actually get a sense of satisfaction from that? From spending years following someone else's instructions? Does beating a raid boss feel like a victory when all you did was follow a sequence of recipes? When you yourself contributed nothing to the victory a script fricking Yanderedev could write completely in if/else statements couldn't also have done? The hell is even slightly satisfying about that? What about that do you find enjoyable?
>And yet my understanding of how most people play MMO's is they just
>>Look up best class for what they want to do.
>>Look up best build for that class.
>>Look up best gear for that build.
for three actual years.
>>Look up how to beat raid boss for the new best gear.
I think this depends on the game though. In a game where there is just an optimal BiS answer, then yeah I'm gonna look it up and not put myself behind just to be unique. If there were different specs and options and everything was viable, then I might be more willing to explore and find what fits my style.
In Guild Wars 2, I did a lot of sPVP, which was essentially that's games small team vs team PvP. And while there were generally agreed on builds to run for that each class, you could definitely run some off-meta stuff and surprise people. And that meant I was far more comfortable to explore condition builds, bulky survivability builds, glass cannon builds, etc. But when it came to PvE, I just ran full crit, because there was no reason to do anything but highest DPS possible.
people wouldnt look the best shit if they didnt have addons that allow to monitor data and compare it and theyd have to pick shit themselves which is infinitely more fun than looking bis online
How did the French manage to make the best MMORPG bros?
Like always... trough the raw power of erotica and porn.
>wouldnt it make sense if the medics were on the front line
No. It wouldn’t you autistic fricking moron.
or just play MMOs that dont have holy trinity
its only newbie MMOs and WoWclones that do this trash
The holy trinity is not Tank/Healer/DPS, it is Tank/Healer/Crowd Control with the implication being that you can fill the rest of the party with whatever bums you can find.
MMORPG enemy combat AI is another thing entirely but it's mostly supposed to be abstracting the tank (Fighter, Paladin, etc) standing in the front of the formation and being an actual threat that you can't just ignore.
tanking is just crowd control that functions against cc-immune enemies. it's not a different category and it definitely doesn't replace damage.
not aggro, cc. aggro is just cc.
It can work if the tank does his job by standing between the enemy and their target and can actually kill them if they try to just walk past. It's tedious as frick if he just spams the 'make enemies attack me' button.
The tank's role is to crowd control and draw aggro. The medic's job is to make sure that no one loses their final HP.
The DPS's role is to b***h about everyone else, and rq.
The trinity can only exist due to the contrivance of the aggro mechanic.
Tanks should not exist in their current iteration; they should be the heaviest hitters with a vulnerability that needs the others to protect, not a mere masochist magnet that soaks up attention and damage.
Healers should be capable of defending themselves and not relegated to an exclusive bar-go-upper. Damage should be more lethal and not a drawn out slow battle of attrition.
The frontline fighters should be focused on defensive formations to repel and and physically block enemies from reaching the squishier specialists or hitting the tank in the ass, corralling them so that groups can be nuked.
chud post
>virgin tank who secretly wants to be chad dps
All your suggestions suck.
>combat medic suggestion
Pure moronation. "I hope you can heal yourself, because I'm a combat medic." Completely useless for the team. Why would anyone ever let them join the raid? Medics are already in a limited player base, why reduce it more, by letting DPSgays queue faster, by playing a different class?
Posts like these are the proof that the average Ganker user would make an awful game no one would want to play.
That anon just described TF2, which is, in fact, the best game ever made
If MMORPGs weren't such absolute pieces of shit you could have actual locational tactics work, like tanks and wall magic that physically block movement. Have monsters show that they've decided to aggro the healer with a symbol over their head and if you can body block them until they give up you just got say 10 seconds of non-damage in that fight
But the position/facing and latency of characters from the server is generally very loosely interpreted by each client in MMORPGslop netcode so real action can't work and you have to use aggro like a c**t
Your post doesn't make sense
if enemy can't reach healer, why wouldn't he just switch to range weapons?
why wouldn't he just push you aside?
Feels like you are really shit at designing "realistic behavior" lmao
did you forget you play MMORPGs you stupid c**t
>did you forget you play MMORPGs
>you could have actual locational tactics work, like tanks and wall magic that physically block movement. Have monsters show that they've decided to aggro the healer with a symbol over their head and if you can body block them until they give up you just got say 10 seconds of non-damage in that fight
Dunno, you are trying to make enemies act smart, but just make them even more moronic than usual taunt mechanic
you clearly did forget you play MMORPGs you stupid c**t
You are the moron
This isn't about making enemies smarter, but about making gameplay less stale
>After all, if I was an enemy, my first priority to target would naturally be the healer.
MMO trinity was made before advanced enemy AI where it would prioritize a sensible target like a healer
No it wasn't, that shit is as old as MUDs and so is aggro based on taunt vs. healing vs. damage done
So some people say, but I remember it distinctly evolving with Everquest. It was perfected with Warcraft. In EQ warriors were also hard hitters, as I recall. And alternatives like Ultima used something completely different. You had skills or you didn't.
Literally everything that was ever in an MMORPG was prototyped on some mud by the early '90s
Surprisingly XIV showed with the Rathalos collab trial that even the most basic basic tab-target system can have boss fights unencumbered by the MMO trinity. The boss can't be tanked, healing is reduced, and everyone gets a limited number of self-heal special actions. More designers need to analyze this specific fight for their own inspiration.
That's just every fricking online action rpg dude. Games of literally nothing but that have existed for decades now, monster hunter is one of them.
You forgot to mention that Rathalos is an incredibly boring fight that you can't even get people to unsync farm for the mount because there's nothing engaging about it.
Rather it's a fight that you need to pay a little attention to instead of just braindead AFKing your rotation and move to the side every 30 seconds
You are LITERALLY describing Rathalos though. Rathalos you literally just dodge his tail swipe every 5-10 seconds, and dump DPS for the rest of the time. One player gets targeted for a fire bait, so they just place it out of the way and then come back to hit the flying target dummy. Rathalos is not at all engaging.
meh you act like wow is easy but when you mess up something, get - dkp, waste moral time and resources from all raid, you get a lot of stressing pressure, then when you also focus to perform and deal high dps etc, its easy to mess up up, so fricking easy that so many people fail in wow classic stuff like thaddius, especially these days with all the neuroticism and adhd,
you can say whatever you want "its easy bro" but
1-most raids always have some wipes like this at every run
2-if we look at your mmo history i bet you messed up many times and you act on your high horse now because people cant know
stuff like kick rotations when a single fail wipes the raid can be incredibly stressful for what it is
I don't know what you're even talking about.
Someone said "wow rathalos is a great example of a fight that doesn't use traditional trinity design!"
I replied, "but it's a really boring fight (comparatively to the standard encounters seen elsewhere in the game)"
Someone said, "it's better than just dodging the bad and braindead dpsing!"
To which I replied, "that's exactly what rathalos is though. Dodge his one cone aoe, then target dummy the rest of the time"
How good or bad I am at the game, or whether I make mistakes has nothing to do with it. The point is that the example fight given doesn't actually do anything innovative or engaging with aggro mechanics. And it just ends up being "learn to dodge the one telegraphed mechanic, and boringly mash dps buttons the rest of the time." Which isn't actually meaningfully different than any other encounter in the game.
Tell me why you place exclamation points on your "quotes" for the person you are arguing against, but not on your own responses
To make myself seem more measured and rational with my responses, and I ply that they're onions lovers spouting irrelevant garbage.
I'm not wrong though.
but if you cumulate the pressure and absence of leeway for making mistakes + difficulty of execution of games that do not have any pressure , have checkpoints and only rely on your execution, wouldnt that be too difficult? can you imagine 40 ppl dark souls raid. you d probably have to tune shit down
>After all, if I was an enemy, my first priority to target would naturally be the healer
No, your first priority would be someone who can frick up your day, like dude with giant 2h weapon in your face, or sniper if you can't hide right away
coop games proved it and clearly show what all good players target
The fact that you feel need to remake same thread for years, just shows how out of touch with reality you are
i dont agree with you. even in these instances taking out the healer would be more important. if you were the enemy what would be your tactic to win the fight? getting rid of the person healing damage would probably always be the first
>even in these instances taking out the healer would be more important
All good players disagree
>if you were the enemy what would be your tactic to win the fight
same tactic good players use in coop games, kill the most dangereous enemies first
the only reason it's different in mmos like wow is because since wotlk everyone has bloated hp in pvp, so healing is actually a legit threat
In all others situations when you can fast kill someone? You always go for people who cause biggest threat to your existence
It's just a complete dogshit implementation of real RPG parties where fighters are tanks/DPS, clerics can tank and heal too etc.
Whoever designed the first iteration of it should kill themselves.
>real RPG parties
>clerics can tank
you clearly never touched real rpg
>bbbbut muh melee cleric in dnd
would die in seconds if he's the only frontline in your party
Of course they aren't the only frontline and of course they will melt.
But I just played a session yesterday where my party cleric had 21AC and didn't die despite initiating a combat at level 4 alone against 5 hobgoblins including a captain.
Is that Barb DR? No. But if they are sitting frontline next to a fighter while casters and pew pews do their thing from behind they are tanking.
You've got some moronic mindset where if the frontline isn't some bullet sponge piece of shit like in dogshit MMORPGs they aren't tanking. Of course DND has more realistic damage models than FFXIV and its 30000000HP numbers.
>Whoever designed the first iteration of it should kill themselves.
the thing is the first iterations weren't so strictly defined and actually had a lot of overlap and improvised roles
the concepts existed but the "trinity" only got solidified as an idea sometime after WoW
Holy trinity was war/clr/enc
I have a friend who will play an RTS against people like he's in a pve wow dungeon
>Nooooo why are you blowing up my stealthed mortars instead of attacking my frick off tank instead????
Because if you actually ever played any tabletop, you would know that if enemies act smart, party won't survive, so gm always lowers their intelligence and never makes 3 rangers focus single party member. Just so game would be interesting
the holy trinity exists as an abstraction of minmaxing the interactions players are allowed to have in party VS enemy combat
>party can reduce enemy hp
dps is the minmaxed version of interacting with the enemy HP
>party can be damaged by the enemy
Tank is the minmaxed version of reducing this interaction that the enemy has against the party
>party can replenish the resources of the party
Healing is the only interaction a party can have with itself thats beneficial and wouldnt just fall into the role of DPS buffing themselves or the party
party interacting with enemy, enemy interacting with party, party interacting within themselves
thats really the basis of the trinity.
>people prefer specialization over everyone being a generalist
>everything works better this way
>people strive to be the best they can possibly be at specialization
Just like real life. It's not surprising that online games, that require players interacting with each other for success, will lead to the same outcomes.
>Healing is the only interaction a party can have with itself thats beneficial and wouldnt just fall into the role of DPS buffing themselves or the party
you could also buff the defense of your teammates to keep one from dying as fast while you heal the other or apply it on the dps when they would otherwise get instantly eviscerated by a particularly nasty attack because you can't unkill a party member
ITT
>nah i'm gonna do what hundreds of millions of dollars and dozens of experienced game studios couldn't do and I'm going to dismantle the idea of using the holy trinity in MMOs in a post on Ganker
>the game genre I wasted my life on couldn't possibly have been improved, clearly it only lost all relevancy because... uhh...
>you're wrong because MMOs with the holy trinity aren't popular
>you're wrong because MMOs with the holy trinity are more popular
these mad replies are about as conclusive as you can get that I'm on fricking point.
but please continue being moronic 'game idea' guys.
>gachas are objectively good games because they make money and are popular
lol
>LoLbab
Incredibly self aware pic. I'm impressed.
Uh, the entire board is for discussing gorillion dollar video games.
I think trinity itself is fine. Whats really suffocating MMOs is just how static everything is. Repeating same scripted encounters over and over in 2023 is just stale and archaic. Roles should be softened and fights need to be more randomized
Just remove HP. Simple as.
>wouldn't it make more sense to kill the medics, instead of the tanks and infantry?
The healer in the fight is canonically hiding behind the others at all times, not giving the enemy an opening to strike at them lest it leave them open to critical strikes from the DPS/tank.
The mmo trinity is cancer and no good mmo uses it.
tank and healers are actually the same role.
weirdly enough, few games split DPS up in the same way they split the defensive role.
weird how class based fps games managed to completely dodge this issue before overwatch came along and dumbed the genre down for wowgays
>overwatch
Underage spotted.
Medic in class based shooters was in TFC, 1999. There was probably medics before that too.
yeah but there was no tank that had some arbitrary mechanic to force you to shoot him. you shoot the heavy in team fortress because he has a minigun that will frickin kill you.
>you only shoot the heavy because of gun
>ignore the fact that heavy has the most health/armor and lives with a medic
heavy is human shield
Spend any amount of time tanking dungeons and you'll quickly find out that even something as "simple" as the trinity is to hard for the average player to understand.
DPS will just pull shit constantly, pull extra shit and not let you get threat lead, then blame the tank or healer for the wipe. Healer will cast max heals for when you take minor damage then DPS ontop of it, then be instantly OOM and pull threat causing a wipe.
Heal for randoms in dungeons and see dps constantly queing for tank roles, using bloodfury OCD.
I have a much easier time 2 manning dungeons then bringing 3 extra morons that just cause wipes and roll need on everything.
>playing wow in 2007
>use hunter skills to split mob groups and transfer aggro to tank
>tank throws a shitfit and insists that only the tank is allowed to pull
>try to explain how my skills work
>he doesn't care says he is an everquest veteran and that's how it always worked
>ok bro have it your way
>aggros 2 groups at once with his aoe
>party wipes
why are people like this?
What is it about Everquest that brings out the worst in people
Everyone is the main character in their mind.
Nobody wants to pay attention to mechanics that would be better handled by a script than a human being. MMORPG players are watching the TV and doing their homework at the same time because the gameplay could be handled by a TI-84
Playing support in MMO is always the best experience. Shame when an MMO doesnt have proper ones. FFXIV has the worst supports, very boring, very sad.
I played a lala in FFXIV and it was fun being a lala, but I was a WHM and it was so mind numbing that I quit after having to do like the 3rd dungeon with people.
>Game can't give boss enemies large forward swiping attacks
>There are no reflection mechanics for ranged magic classes that could summon giant aoes on their allies when their spells are reflected
>Rogues and Single Target DPS can't use element of surprise to deal massive damage with a single attack
The mmo genre fricking stinks.
Dofus does literally all of this
Game doesn't act like an mmo, probably because it's a fun game that gets overlooked because of the art direction, and french people.
i think the art direction is the reason it's not entirely overlooked
>Rogues and Single Target DPS can't use element of surprise to deal massive damage with a single attack
sorry bro, only "new" mmo I know that does that is fallout 76 and I'm pretty sure it doesn't count as an mmo
didnt clerics in dnd wear some of the heaviest armor available?
from a gameplay perspective i guess its to encourage risky plays by going after healers.
i guess they could do something similar against heal-tanks by being able to target their mana in some way.
>Wouldn't it make more sense if the healer was also the tank?
In some games Anon...they are, and its amazing.
>glasscannon/high skill ceiling dps
>low skill dps
>utility/tanky dps
There.
can utility mark for death or destroy projectiles?
he can fix plumbing, internet and electrical problems.
even better
the few times ive seen it, i enjoyed when games have interactive environmental elements that only some specialist classes can access.
Tanks are the main characters
Healer is the least masculine sissy little b***h girl who is obedient and a slave to the other roles.
Then comes ranged dps and that is a femboy who knows just to hide with his little sniper and gets pounded in the ass by tanks and dps.
Then comes dps which is the normie with testosterone levels between below average and above average.
And then comes the giga boss masculine alpha TANKS who frick every little sissy b***h up in an instant left and right any direction all day. Get fricked.
>"tanks"
>non-existent in pvp
>does nothing vs untankable enemies
woah...
tanks are actually support
mages are the main damage dealers
DPS has way more kills than the tank and gets the final killing blow on bosses.
Tank and Healer are the cuck classes that don't get to do cool shit.
>Tank and Healer are the cuck classes that don't get to do cool shit.
Yeah you slapping a monster's ass for half an hour while he's busy trying to kill me because I'm the biggest threat is real cool brother
>biggest threat
>had to have all aggro mechanics nerfed to shit because even a faceroller could rip aggro away
Tanks are pussies.
what game are you quoting?
basically any and every MMO up until like Cataclysm era of WoW.
you used to have to actually pay attention to threat meters as strong DPS or good healers back in the day and would have to stop dps/stop heals or scale back if you got to close to the top of the threat meter.
>Healer stops healing tank
>Tank dies and the DPS proceed to get raped
>Tank intentionally loses aggro and the DPS proceed to get raped
DPS have no power in groups, you move to the whim of the tank and healer and you are the most replaceable archetype in any group
how the frick are you going to cast healing spells while having your face caved in by a giant monster boss, moron?
doesn't make sense in the fiction and most games have a mechanic were taking damage interrupts your spellcasting
I teleport the boss away and then deal damage.
Then I teleport away from the boss again.
so now you can teleport? why get hit at all, then? just hit and run, and solo the boss.
>and solo the boss
yes
ok but now it's not a party based rpg boss fight. it's a devil may cry virgil fight where you teleport around and kill a single player boss.
not everyone is a Xelor or is good enough to solotage though
don't know what any of that is, but it's generally a bad idea to design a game based around a tiny niche like "single overleveled player soloing a boss that was meant to be raided against"
>"rpg" combat with a "party", only you control a single character and dodge and teleport and perform combos on a boss and it doesn't really matter what anyone else is doing
congratulations: you just re-invented the combat of FFXV
There are plenty of Gacha games that essentially solve it by making a variety of support classes, and distributing healing and support roles.
Maybe someday an MMO will adopt some of the innovations, but MMOs designers are incompetent and stuck in the past. Why would anyone with talent choose to work on an MMO?
It's a a shame that Gacha games are gambling rackets, because a lot of them do interesting gameplay mechanics that other games haven't caught up on yet.
they really don't do shit, every gacha mechanic is lifted from a korean mmo from some point or another
This has never worked.
Because each class needs to able to clear most of the game solo.
So each one of them is off damage.
>Because each class needs to able to clear most of the game solo.
Just saying, but you are aware that wow was the first mmo where you could do that, right? It was even marketed as mmo for people who hate playing with others and how you could get max level without talking with people.
Technically you could do that in eq as broken class like necromancer, but that's different
>First priority is healer, second priority would be enemies that dish out a lot of damage
Some games and past versions of FF XIV were different. Tanks had a moveset specially made to place themselves as the biggest threat to any enemy since dealing a lot of damage and healing always produced enough aggro to get the enemy's attention.
AFAIK healing no longer produces aggro at all and morons like to ignore the tooltip about not to become the player with the highest enmity level
Who would have guesses that TP had a use?
It is because initially in DnD "tanks" (actually frontline) were a threat, that got attacks of opportunity, that will stop whatever you were doong if hit (or at least will deal a lot of damage for free), lots of control options and otherwise could frick enemies shit up if untended. Therefore "taunting" was natural - you can't freely cast a spell or shoot an arrow in the "healer", when dude with huge axe is breaking your casts purely with his free attack autodamage.
For MMOs it was simplified with taunts, which, technically, is a soft control option.
Therefore, despite being a simplified version, taunts and "tanking" are not stupid.
taunts are stupid
In ragnarok online in played a priest and I also tanked. Kino party was me with a wizard that would just aoe every mob. The only thing I couldn't tank were mvps
>realistic
Sometimes realism doesn't make for fun game design.
Primo, because its basically what were the first DnD class (Tank = Fighting man, Healer = Cleric, Attacker = Mage).
Second, it work and create a balanced combat system where the entire party contribute.
No. Every single one of those classes attacks so everyone gets the same basic gameplay experience and can instead of being forced to play as a fricking buffbot or training dummy and NOT contribute which is what the trinity forces at times. Clerics and fighters are fighting men, with clerics having a specialty against undead and ability to spellcast (which includes heals.) There are cleric schools in DnD that massively reduce the amount of healing a cleric can optimally do and turns them into a battle caster that can heal, and that little amount of healing is enough for DnD since you will not want to be casting healing mid fight most of the time anyways as it will be outdamaged.
Is the healer symbol supposed to look like a Fallopian tube?
Just have a DPS who can dodge all enemy attacks with the right timing.
sorcerer, knight and archer make the best use of the limited pixels.
>all shoot various forms of projectiles and play exactly the same
>using caduceus as a symbol of healing
Are you an American by a chance?
So what about Non-healing magic?
Am i too assume healer represents most/all magic?
We all know its only shitty healing, support, and some buff magic (+debuff?).
Is dps including Archer, or gun shooter, or bomber, or...is it just small knife/1 hand blades?
Frick the trinity, it's outdated and boring no matter how you implement it. MMOs need to become a lot more sophisticated in their combat and AI to a point where they don't need to rely on such a simplistic and stale formula. You don't need fixed roles to have a good group dynamic, there are tons of ways to introduce coordination and teamplay, the trinity is just the lazy way to do it.
>there are tons of ways to introduce coordination and teamplay
And yet not a single coop shooter or action game did that...
Monster Hunter and Dragon's Dogma Online are probably the closest things we have to what I'm talking about, creating a game like this requires a solid action game foundation and MMOs have barely started scratching the surface of what's possible when it comes to action oriented gameplay. Most devs/publishers are still making WoW clones or braindead mobile games because they're scared of thinking outside the box and dropping their 'get rich quick' schemes.
>Monster Hunter
>coordination
moron
> creating a game like this requires a solid action game foundation
And yet not a single action game with coop did that
>reating a game like this requires a solid action game foundation and MMOs have barely started scratching the surface of what's possible when it comes to action oriented gameplay.
We aren't talking about mmos here, I mean not a single real action game did that
because big surprise for any type of coordination people need to assume roles, whatever this roles will be in the game, be it bait or something else. Just like in real life when people work together they separate their workloads
But you literally used mh as example of coordinated gameplay, so you must be moronic
>Most devs/publishers are still making WoW clones or braindead mobile games because they're scared of thinking outside the box and dropping their 'get rich quick' schemes.
Biggest mmo problem right now is unironically moronic devs who try to push on the players things they don't need, like removal of tab based combat
>Vermintide 2 has 4 players missions that work a somewhat a wow dungeon
vermintide also build around of idea that even if party shits themselves and fricks up, you can always survive alone and finish mission, even on highest difficulties
Darktide on the other hand build around system of any moron being able fricking up everything for entire party
Both games actually don't have much coordination outside of staying together and you mostly pray for teammates not being moronic
>dnd clerics
>not being buff bots
I mean as long as gm goes easy on you, you can play whatever way you want, but come on
You don't understand.
Clerics who buff party aren't contributing in dnd, lol.
The problem with comparing regular action games with coop to MMOs is that those are almost always designed to be played solo, they're limited in the way the can approach teamplay because everything has to be able to accommodate the solo player, still Monhun does have some strategies that are unique to coop that you can coordinate with your team even though it isn't specifically required to win the encounters.
And for MMOs we simply don't have enough examples to go on besides things like DDON and Monster Hunter Online which not many people know about because they were only ever released in Japan. You're just too ignorant about the subject and obviously a diehard tab-targetgay.
>NOOOOO ACTION GAMES HAVE COORDINATION YOU ARE SO IGNORANT
>well they don't
>IT'S ONLY BECAUSE THEY ARE DESIGNED TO PLAY SOLO STOP BEING RACIST BIGGOT
Take your meds
I already explained to you on real life examples, coordination demands people to assume roles and do their part
You on the other hand thinking the game where hh players could play songs that weren't attack L and still finish hunt in multiplayer had coordination
I don't even want to talk about wow, just a vermintide and lack of real coordination.
But let's be honest, 25 players where even one mistake can ruin everything for everyone will always be "more coordinated game" where mistakes don't really matter and you can finish everything solo as long as you are good enough for that
any game based on skill can have very skilled palyers that solo anything unless you make things even more difficult
what you call coordination is to have a game not based on skill but based on numbers
somethin that require skill would be some guy kiting and looping mobs in a dungeon and clearing everything by himself but then you would say there is no coordination. skill mean less skill = worse result and better skill = better result, in wow you just hit the mob and the numbers talk. there are ways to reach a middle ground but to say osme game is more coordinated becaus esome guy somewhere didnt stand where he should have and now everyone is dead is not really coordination unless the players can see the dude and avoid what he does. if some guy goes on the wrong side on thaddius the palyers cant adapt around that, its just a one sided thing that ruins everyone else
that like saying some guys gets killed during onyxia and the rest of the rtaid can still manage and survive by kiting dragons then you say its not coordinated
sure vermintide can be soloed but in legend difficulty unless you re a top 0.000001% player its just not going to happen
>unless you re a top 0.000001% player its just not going to happen
I disagree, you can survive almost every situation after your party shits the bed and carry them on.
Darktide where you actually can't do that no matter how good you are, made it very clear
>what you call coordination is to have a game not based on skill but based on numbers
No, I'm not talking about dps checks, but about systems like fricking move away your bomb from others, or if someone else doesn't go to other side of room to press button while you are busy there, then everyone is fricked. Things like that are definition of coordination
how many players can solo survive a legend wave in vermintide 2? (not even the highest difficulty), especially when several specials pop in a row thatcan all solo you if they get a hold of you while you have to deal with monks etc
nah, this is the definition of zeus striking you with thunder. you re minding your own business, doign everything perfectly and suddenly some guy away from you just destroyed the whole raid. a more coordinate thing would be that it doesnt end the raid but makes things more difficult and forces players to adapt, and to have palyers be able to run away from the bomb by cleartly seeing them and not just relying on the player affected by the bomb, even potentially friendlyfiring your own teammate for the teams safety
vermintide, even if they toned ddown, definitely have people that can pull some stormvermin patrols and ruin the game
-friendly fire.
-handling healing items together
-saving other in needs, going to their body to free them if they died
-during a boss when the boss is after someone the person effectively becomes some kind of tank
-sometimes they must together quickly kill some enemy before he uses a spell orf whatever , the fact that they die somewhat fast is compensated by the fact that these special neemies can very quickly mess everything up and they have more hp in higher difficulties
-in a number os situations you have to wait for each other and not get ahead too much
and other. i dont agree that this game has little coordination compared to wow. sure it doesnt have buffs or tanking or CCs to not break but im not sure if these things really matter. in terms of true coordination (meaningful ) you could argue that vermintide actually has more coordination than wow
Every character in Vindictus is a dps and it was pretty fun back in the day.
Why didn't they make "Taunt" force a player to target the taunter for like 3 seconds in pvp in World of Warcraft?
That would have wrecked the way rogues used to handle their combo points, and the PvP lead was a rogue main. If you don't understand what I'm talking about, rogues have weaker attacks that used to put a "point" on a target, and stronger finisher attacks that use up those points. Changing targets resets the points, meaning a forced target switch breaks the combo.
Nowadays the point goes on the rogue themselves instead of the target, so target swapping doesn't cause a loss.
ah yeah i remember some rage moments, the loss of combo poitns on missclicking wa spretty rough. but one coudl question why didnt they make taunt viable in pvp once they changed the combo system to not lose points after target change
To that I have no answer. Best guess would be that it's always been that way, so why change it now.
congratulations, you have discovered the basic disconnect between the holy trinity and what would happen if the enemies weren't specifically programmed to play into this artificial strategy.
Among everything that it did wrong, Lost Ark did it right by removing it and making everyone a dps.
EXCUSE ME WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING A DEAD GENRE?
no good and alive mmos exist and it's been like this since around the dusk of WotLK
Because there are still morons out there that defend this shitty genre and watching their reactions when you post suggestions on how to improve it is pretty funny.
>As it stands now the "tank" would actually be lowest priority to any logical enemy.
that's called a game
crunching logic isnt a game that's just homework
Having NPCs that are closer to real thinking entities instead of being mindless scripted machines makes for a better game.
ok so program it
oh wait you can't because you can't comprehend suspension of disbelief nor apply game logic
I have programmed hierarchical state machines and behavior trees that are way more intelligent than any MMO enemy.
The intensity doesn't need to hinge on how smart the enemies are, it's more about the overall difficulty and powerlevel of each individual enemy, also which tools the enemies have available to them that you need to be mindful of. I wouldn't want the intensity to drop too low either, there's nothing worse than what basically equates to an idle game where you can watch TV shows or whatever while mindlessly clicking buttons for hours, I'd rather have combat be more intense and make other more mindless side activities like professions.
thats the opposite of what im tryign to say, a MMO shouldnt be too intense. intensity should only be increased in dungeons proportionally to dungeon difficulty, but also according to enemies
why would a stupid boar prioritize a mage, couple of enemies and only if they hit in melee sure. and that would only be in group fight, so most likely elite mobs, so most likely kiting, stunning. id see that in some dungeons and even then you cant kite too much in palces where you would pull other mobs and very much would need to cleary stuff behind you, might run into patrols more.
also there are probably technical difficulties linked to how much resources would that pull back then. why dont they do it now probably lazyness and the return on the cost that is not that much because elite humanoid intelligent enemies are pretty rare so they focus on the chunk of the game . also cant do that too much on boss since kiting and stunning would make them trivial. a little bit on minibosses i guess
Of course a boar should act like a dumb animal, anything else would be silly. And I don't agree that an MMO shouldn't be intense, especially when it comes to combat, low intensity grinds are boring as hell and I don't want to see them in my vidya. There are other activities that are better suited for relaxation like fishing or mining rocks, combat should be the opposite of that.
it can have both. for many people who played wow chillign in the barrens questing at night with the night barrens music playing, dojg quests etc was a pretty relaxing and surprisingly memorable experience. not all games have the same goals, games shouldnt have only this or that, they can have a mix
wow was a very acessible game that was made popular because of that, even girls played it. it it was an intense action gma eit would have less success. but that doesnt prevebnt from adding some intense combat at high level and in some dungeons and elite places. that doenst necessarily have to do with MMO themselves but the battle system was usually auto attack and some skills, there is only so much you can do with that and it you had to do more for hours to kill lions in the barrens it would get pretty old fast, it just would require more manipulation
anything can be too much, imagine every lion being a dark souls boss. if you re goign to grind for hours, you re better off having it a bit less intense with surges of increased intensity time to time. the long spans of time was also part of the mmo experience. you can have a game more like what you re describing but not every mmo has to be that way
I'm not saying every enemy should be a dark souls boss, just that combat should be an engaging activity with a lot of depth to it. Preferably skill based so the level of intensity depends mostly on your personal skill level and muscle memory. Sort of like the way Dark Souls is designed. It has dogs and mindless zombies too but the combat is a lot more engaging than your average tab-target MMO thanks to the fact that you have to remain vigilant the entire time and not just rely on numbers and RNG to do the job for you. I get the feeling that the majority of gamers today are like me and they space out when the combat gets too spreadsheety and dull, most of them gravitate towards high intensity games like CoD instead of grinding in WoW. Maybe MMO devs should strive to capture this (massive) audience instead of pleasing the dwindling MMO playerbase.
to some extent its a design thing. a mmo could have enemies that do some aoe with a short cast time and a lot of time that would have to dodge, cast very powerful spells with very short cast time that you have to have interrupt which wouldnt be so different than dark souls. its more of an accessibility thing as well as the intensity, being drainign if you had to do that for hours while MMOs were in some way something to unwind, with surges of difficulty here and there, i agree that the grind was kinda boring but its has its pros as well. mmos are so vast that the content is usually lower quality. you coudlnt design cool rooms and bosses like in an action game of imsim for a MMO unless you have 20 years of content behind you. and if it was not too hard then it would be so much in your muscular memory (after grinding for thousands of hours) that it wouldnt be much less mindless than autoattack
and slower tab targeting allows to focus more on group play (important part of MMOs)
these dark souls gameplays take all your focus despite that they re single player. imagine in 15v15 the mess that it would be. autotack relieves you of brain space you can use for spacing crowd control cooldown etc for mmo group battles. wow pvp even in 1v1 can already be pretty intense for group battle are basically impossible to be skillcapped at. if you add very precise action gameplay it would be much harder
not that iot can be done or that there isnt a compromise. but its never been done and it seems slower gameplay fit more mmos and its long sessions as well as group battles
and i shouldnt say slow cuz wow isnt slow, just that ther eis less focus on landign your attacks or dodging even tohugh there is definitely a strong element of spacing which is kinda dodging in a way
I wouldn't describe autoattacks as something that frees up brainspace for other things, in an action game like DS the 'autoattack' is the game. You throw out AOEs at either a short or long distances to deal damage as well as other effects. You can't click on a specific target and POM sheep them for example, you often don't have to worry about targeting at all unless you're using a ranged ability, does that mean I'm freeing up brainspace for the manual attack game? Maybe you could see it that way, maybe it even evens out, all things considered. I believe a game like that would be about as if not less hectic than a tab-target equivalent in a 15v15 scenario. New World is a real example that actually works like that and a battleground in that isn't nearly as hectic as a 3v3 arena match in WoW.
i was thinkign of something that would cumulate action attacks like dark souls and wow skill, and group battles
not just dark souls mmo
Well they would both be extremely different games and combining them into one wouldn't work because of conflicting elements, we have to treat them as separate things.
They literally can't do satisfying melee action collision detection in large scale MMOs, it's just not feasible with the way MMO netcode works
they can make aoe which work in a similar way as a horizontal cleave. you can make a wide aoe and a narrower aoe see cone of cold in wow, many of the spell are lines of fire that go straight as well. you cant have the counter strike of sword fighting but you can definitely have crude sword hits more or less wide that do the job.
if anythin someone could right now make a spell on a private server with a short range cone of cold with the cooldown of your attack speed and it ll do the job
you re right that it should be for some human elites here and there but if it was like that all the time it would be pretty annoying, mmos are played for hours chilling in your underwear you cant play street fighter nonstop or have the intensity of vermintide 8 hours in a row in the starting zones where people are killing boars
i want to add that you woudl essentially switch the tanks since the tank would now be the mage, the game would be about kiting. can be nice here and there against some specific mobs but not all the time. can you iomagine wow levelling if every mob was behaving like a player
>Having NPCs that are closer to real thinking
Tabletop games don't really apply to video games at all, they're way too simple in terms of mechanics. They have turn-based combat and rely heavily on RNG. Video games don't have to do that at all, you have way more control over what the player experiences while interacting with its systems.
Imagine being the tank getting hurt again and again and at the end that lanky DPS fricker murders the dragon the healbawd makes an impressed mating call shout of relief. Then you go back to the inn and they frick while you are still in pain all over. Tanks are incels.
tanks need to aggro the enemy more so that the enemy targets them almost exclusively, else there's no point for them to be there
Evolved is a game that actually managed to solve this very intuitively. The roles in Evolved were Tank/DPS, Healer, and Trapper(Utility). Since it was asymmetric PvP, the monster was controlled by a player, and would usually smartly target the healer first. But the DPS would get in their face and pump out damage that couldn't be ignored. So the monster either had to switch focus to the DPS and try to incapacitate them, or had to break line of sight and fight while avoiding the DPS. The DPS also had tank abilities like damage reduction, to reward them when the monster did focus them, because they could play around that. The utility characters were generally the lowest priority threat for the monster, but were also usually the ones with the least survivability and were super annoying to the monster, so sometimes the monster would try to get a quick kill on them, even though it left the DPS and Healer left unchecked.
I think moving DPS and Tank together would work in a tab-target MMO environment, too. Have your Frontline DPS be squishing than traditional tanks, and make them actually weave in and out of fights, using movement to get out of range and reset enemy aggro. Enemies try to rush through to healers, but will respond to DPS hitting high levels of damage, and try to attack them instead. So the general gameplay would be DPS trying to keep the best uptime they could, while having to manage their aggro so that they don't hold the enemy's attention for too long. Actually juggling aggro between different DPS and sometimes the healers would be actually fun and engaging gameplay, and allow for some cool optimization at higher levels.
>get rid of class homogenization
>sweaty neckbeards start deciding that x class is sub-optimal by 2% for endgame content and therefor isn't allowed in their parties
>wannabe neckbeards pick up on it
>now x class is unplayable at endgame
>this continues until endgame is just the same party for all content
The "tank" role should be eliminated.
Healing can be interesting if there are very limited AOE heals and the healer(s) need to be fast and selective about who and when to heal
Damage dealing is self explanatory
But "tanks" just trivialize every fight into mashing buttons since there is no threat of enemy damage to anyone else ever if he does his job.
>"tanks" just trivialize every fight into mashing buttons since there is no threat of enemy damage to anyone else ever if he does his job.
way to out yourself as someone who's never played any of this shit lmao
tanks usually don't deal with boss mechanics and neither do healers, it's the DPS who do the majority of them, because you can sacrifice damage but you can't sacrifice staying alive.
I like PSO2, but you can't deny that everyone basically plays a single player game alongside other people, rather than playing together.
There's advantages and disadvantages to both, but holy trinity and derivatives are not fundamentally flawed.
>tanks usually don't deal with boss mechanics and neither do healers, it's the DPS who do the majority of them
All that means is that tanks are fricking braindead roles.
"mechanics" where players have to run and stand in a spot for three seconds, then stand in another spot for three seconds are anti-fun design and should be eliminated as well.
If this was PvP, it'd make sense, but because AI is usually designed to attack the player that last attacked and/or the player that has the most "power", the Tank will end up having the highest priority. Also, counterplay is a big factor in most role engagements - yes, the healer is definitely a big target, but if they're competent, their positioning will put them in a space of relative safety while the tank softens targets and the DPS finishes them.
Lol what are you smoking tanks don't exist in PvP because we can just target people.
Well yeah that was my point, this trinity isn't particularly viable in PvP because of strategy that humans can actually use, but devs design AI to target Tanks on purpose.
you can make tanks a thing in pvp but it requires the tank player to have significant cc abilities to effectively prevent the enemy from targeting their allies while they're alive
Or maybe something where allied characters get a ridiculous shield/buff as long as they are near a tank, making the tank the best tactical choice to take out first to weaken the rest of the team.
and ironically threat fulfill the role of the better programming, since a mob would have been kited for too long, realizing that he wotn be able to get in melee range of the healer, will have the DPS threat too high and turn to the dps to atleast deal some damage, even if they have more armor. there is an element of distance, if able to be kited/stunned, a mob turning to a healer would actually deal less damage and have less of a chance to cause harm to the group than if he turns to the player with the highest threat
WHICH NOW makes me think that players with weakers armors maybe should start fight with high threats if the enemy is human, but only so much, and that score should be reduced according to how far they stand away from the NPC
I agree that if we were to design a game from the ground up based on aggro management, different mobs would need different priorities. Dumb enemies might just have a preference for the closest target. Semi-intelligent but not human level intelligence enemies might target players with the lowest armor value, or isolated players. Smart enemies would target caster/healers. You could even have special enemies with specific preferences, like assassin adds that target players in the rear of a "formation", or enemies that for lore reasons hate magic and will hard focus any casters regardless of intelligence.
what would be nice if it was based of several factors interferign with each other like threat distance and armor is that the behavior of mobs could be sometimes somewhat impredictable and would keep the DPS on their toes especially melee
Just make aggro way harder to manage and by extension get rid of button mashing rotations
>dps uses big dick damage
>tank better have a taunt ready or the dps will get fricked
>healer uses big dick heal
>instantly gets rekt because the tank isn't paying attention
They had this solved over 20 years ago.
But but TANKXIETY
Nobody will play the role if it means having any form of responsibility for your role. Same reason every role now has enough self-sustain to make healers redundant
I could tank most of that wave-based 5 man in Dalaran with my disco priest in Wrath when I got enough gear during WotLK. Shit was fun. Threat-table based enemy behavior is boring and it's been long enough that motherfrickers should have been putting resources into improving their enemy ai before now.
MMO player like
>yo this gameplay is fire
FFXIV player be like
As much as I agree FF14 fights are just plays that kick you in the balls until you get the script right, it is still infinitely more fun than WoWs "install these addons we have built the fight around or enjoy never getting invited"
The fact that wow devs built fights around addons proves they shouldnt be allowed to make games at all
Name a fight in WoW built around addons shitter
Spoiler, you cant
>We design acknowledging the existence of addons - I think we have to. Sometimes we're actually designing and implementing mechanics in ways that are going to try to work around addons - whether it's entering the code to disarm the bomb on Mekkatorque, or the Among Us game on Lords of Dread, and fixing stuff to plug loopholes that people've found, because we know that we have this idea which could be really fun gameplay, but if an addon solves the whole thing for you, then what's the point? So we have to acknowledge its existence.
One google search
>Sometimes we're actually designing and implementing mechanics in ways that are going to try to work around addons
This is literally the exact opposite of your claim that you need to install the addons for the boss. Nice job debunking yourself moron, hope your parents are proud of having an invalid as a son
>we design fights to work around addons
>addons solve it anyway
>wont get invited unless you have the autosolver
Have you played this godforsaken game?
You said they built the fight around needing those addons
They literally said no, they build fights for addons to not be able to solve so you don't need the addon
You lost. Accept it. You still haven't named a fight that needs addons
The only MMO I have played is FFXIV
I play tanks, the role is pretty boring in this game but I like the class looks and weapons better than the DPS ones.
One thing I've thought is that it would be more fun if instead of the enemies turning to face me, and only sometimes turning to hit someone else (something I can't do anything about since it's 100% scripted), that I should have to physically stand between the enemy and my other party members they target.
Like the boss targets whoever is doing the most damage, or whoever is healing the most HP, and instead of me just grabbing aggro, I act as a literal shield for that player. It would incorporate movement and positioning for ALL players as they try to stay behind me when targeted and I keep moving to block for whoever gets aggro next. Maybe even give tanks the CC options and even let me physically push the enemies around. I heard you can do that in DQX even.
so you're saying you haven't played MMOs and you think you can still have an opinion on them?
FFXI did it right just a shame the mob tp system was fricked and resulted in only a few DD being useful later on.
>tank
>healer
>debuffer
>buffer
>dds
What made ffxi good is that a lot of those roles are shared in a class and it becomes more complex as time goes. What made ffxi special is that even tho it had specialized classes like bard or paladin you could customize them in ways that they could excel in their secondary traits, for example, melee bard was a thing you could do under certain scenarios just not the typical strategy one went for, white mages where the games best melee and caster dps when it came to undead, red mages where debufferd with a lot of buff utility and resource management and they could also work as healers, etc.
The other thing that made ffxi special was the amount of classes that could fit multiple roles at once. Blue mage, puppetmaster, and scholar to name a few.
Having frontline backline makes more sense for combat no reason to draw lines between things that don't feel natural. For the roleplaying part you can do almost anything but at least try something interesting not just boring potion smithing crafting menu stuff.
That's what I liked about DDO when it launched way back when. Plate in front, cloth in back and rogues/rangers in the middle to intercept mobs that slipped past the frontline, aiming for the clothies. Having to learn things and keep them in mind during encounters makes it more fun, even if it's simple shit. Like I never got tired of keeping 2 targets freeze trapped with my SV hunter for the length of a fight in wowbc badge grind.
>I was an enemy, my first priority to target would naturally be the healer
And this is exactly why there is one role designed to avoid your enemies getting to your healer. Isn't this obvious? Uner your "logic" what would make even more sense would be the DPS being the tank and the healer itself.
>tanks and healers should be removed because I don't want to keep waiting for tanks and healers to join my party and carry my DPS character
>Wouldn't it make more sense if the healer was also the tank? After all, if I was an enemy, my first priority to target would naturally be the healer. Getting rid of them first seems essential for anything else.
If the tank was also the healer then your first priority would be the DPS and if the tank could outheal all damage the DPS took, what would the point of a tank be?
you understand the concept of taunts and aggro, right? canonically the mobs don't B line to the healer because the tank is up in their face and makes himself look like the bigger threat.
Okay but why can't they design it so the tank -actually- has to be up in their face as the bigger threat?
Aggro is a terrible mechanic, let the enemies think for themselves and make the group dynamic about countering the strategy of the enemy instead of just accumulating angry points.
an AI does exactly that though. determining which is the most optimal target, wwhich target is more threatening to prevent the victory of the conflict if not eliminated first. angry points are a decent approximation really
as for bosses, then what, they just run up to every healer and kill them all, then what?
>as for bosses, then what, they just run up to every healer and
And the tank should have to get in between the healer and the boss to block the attack, not just press the "look at me" button
bodyblock the boss? stun the boss? do you know how much that would be abused? how the boss would attack the nearest person hwich is even more moronic than angry points ?
>bodyblock the boss? stun the boss?
Yes, with limits of course. Maybe a block gauge/meter that can be manipulated with other abilities or even helped by other classes. Stuns with diminishing returns or prerequisites like a stun meter that needs to be built up first.
>do you know how much that would be abused?
Do you? If so, abuse can be anticipated and circumvented, the same way infinite combos are anticipated or found in fighting games and prevented.
>how the boss would attack the nearest person hwich is even more moronic than angry points ?
Why the frick would you jump to this conclusion? Angry points can still exist and decide who the boss attacks, I'm just saying that Tanking should involve more than just pressing the "give me all the angry points" button.
were talking about bosses here. a dragon will stop because the lil dwarf and his shield just went in front of it? or combination with angry points? but the one with most angry points would be the main tank why would the dragon turn away, are you gonna stun the giant dragon , so the whole game would be kiting?
>Why the frick would you jump to this conclusion?
because
>Aggro is a terrible mechanic, let the enemies think for themselves and make the group dynamic about countering the strategy of the enemy instead of just accumulating angry points.
You're talking to at least two different anons. That quote is not me.
>a dragon will stop because the lil dwarf and his shield just went in front of it?
Oh so you're cool with a dragon stopping and focusing all his attention on the dwarf just because the dwarf hit the "look at me" button, but not because the dwarf literally ran in front of his face and interrupted his attack on the healer?
>but the one with most angry points would be the main tank
Not necessarily, it would logically be the one hurting it the most, the best DPS.
>so the whole game would be kiting?
Are you really so fricking braindead? Does your brain only operate on WoW rules or something? Who said anything about kiting? Read the fricking post again.
I got a better idea for aggro, let the tank just make moronic posts like yours completely devoid of thought and pretend they know what they're talking about.
>but the one with most angry points would be the main tank
Not necessarily, it would logically be the one hurting it the most, the best DPS.
i see an arrogant dragon much more likely to want to destroy a tiny dwarf standing in front of him and acting arrogantly and brazingly despite being so small and weak, and thinking he would crush it in a couple of blows. if hed realize he couldnt then yeah id see him move away but from that point then you re not tanking shit, unless you just kite the mob but kiting already exists and happens with elite mobs
it doesnt matter if they have a super AI because at the end they d just be slowed down while people kite it, it doesnt changign anything whom they target
>Not necessarily, it would logically be the one hurting it the most, the best DPS.
so you want a game without tanks? but then people wouldnt be able to endure the blow of the boss unless everyone become a tank, so no tanking specs and no tanking gear beyond the minimum for everyone to survive
>no kiting
then you want a tank
you want a TANK or no? is the char suppoqsed to endure the hit or dodge them manually?
wtf are you talking about????
do you want a tank or not ? you speak of body block, so the boss would want to attack a dps class with the most angry points but the tank would get inbetween? youre talking about a position thing? without stun or slow(which means kiting necessarily that you want it or not) then that means body block or the boss attack with some kind of "bullet" that would end when it reaches a body, here the tank, without the characters being faster than the boss(which means kiting) then how the frick do you prevent the boss turning around in another direction? you need tanks all around the boss, then what about a boss in a 5man dungeon? 10 man? half the people are tanks? because if the boss is not slowed and turned around to attack someone else then there is no way you can catch up without your tank to get in front of the boss
It's a simplistic and lazy way to make the enemy choose their target and the group is in full control of which target the enemy should be focusing on making for lame scripted fights where everyone that isn't a tank can just hang back and avoid fires while focusing on their dumb rotation. This is really oldschool and dated, most people are sick of it by now.
Devs really should experiment with more sophisticated methods for the enemies to determine their targets and allow other roles to engage with it in more meaningful ways than getting oneshot when they look at you.
yet you can't come up with a better alternative + there are alreaady boss fights i think that change target randomly
whats the point of a tank if you cant choose the target of boss?
A better alternative would be to give the AI an ability to understand what's happening in the group at any given moment, like an extension of the aggro meter with a long list of parameters containing things like how many players are bundled together in one spot, how many have low health, which ones are out of mana or crowd controlled and how far away they are etc. Based on the value of these parameters it can determine the next logical action whenever it is free to do so. If players are bundled up in one spot it's very probable that it will use a big AOE move at the center of that area for example if it has such a move.
Tanks should be able to intervene between the boss and their target and apply protection in other ways such as active AOE shield buffs for example, short active abilities that are very situational depending on what the group needs.
There's so much you can do with a more advanced system like this it's ridiculous, only limiting factor is the imagination of developers.
>only limiting factor is the imagination of developers.
And braindead players who refuse to accept any alternatives as even being possible. Probably because they're too stupid to be successful at anything more complex than "press button in order"
What is the enemy strategy, if not just a hidden value of their angry points being pointed at something specific? We should want tools to manipulate enemy angry points, not hide and obfuscate them entirely.
>the tank is up in their face and makes himself look like the bigger threat.
The tank being a bigger threat doesnt mean it makes sense to take them out first. If the healer is what is helping the tank survive, it would be more logical to try to take out the healer first.
>MMO
>Expecting good gameplay.
>Expecting not just copying WoW.
>Expecting anything that actually makes fricking sense.
This setup is a holdover from the literal 2d sprite era where they didn't have the tech to do anything more interesting with the roles/classes. But all MMO players have sunk cost fallacy and stockholm syndrome so naturally they will ignore anything that tries to actually innovate in any meaningful way to go grind for a week for a pair of shoes in WoW and treat their leisure time like a second job.
Just play better games anon.
Devs are going about this the wrong way, they shouldn't be trying to fix trinity by finding slight variations to make yet another ((not WoW)), they should be throwing the trinity in the trash and asking themselves what they can do without it.
Classes should be more than just their role in the trinity. Shamans in vanilla, for example, were competent healers and competent spellcasters, but they could also be competent fighters at the cost of losing their potency as healers and spellcasters. That sort of thing really fit their concept as spiritual leaders.
I think there should be more to it than just the three main roles. Off-healing, off-tanking and support DPS should also be accounted for. Final Fantasy XI did this incredibly well by implementing the sub-job system, so that more classes like Summoner could be very competent healers while also retaining their unique features.
The problem with adding options is that the best option will always be enforced by the players, with no respect for variety.
Players today have this sense of time management as if their leisure time is being monitored and rated by their bosses. They are hypersensitive about video games "not respecting their time" by giving them too much game to play, while they want to tick off all the boxes to say they played it and move on to the next one.
Because of this none of them want to have to level another class to participate in a piece of content where their one favorite class is not optimal or welcome. They will cry and b***h until the devs homogenize every class to be equal at every task in every situation. So you can't expect them to respec, or make multiple builds, or have multiple gearsets, or simply stick to the content their chosen class is good at.
to be fair levelling shit in wow used to taker like a month of played and not everyone has that kindof time.
maybe they shoudl do something like the more you get level 60 characters on a server, the more it increase the xp for your alts
Levelling should simply be entirely optional. The levelling process teaches you nothing about how to play your class or end game. I should be able to pick a class / spec whenever I want and my power should be tied to my account. Simple as.
the problem with instant max level server is that people will end up not goign on the levelling servers and it makes people not stick to their class
and mmo have so much skills that you need a long progression to learn to use the skills without being overwhelmed like in fighting games where you get throwned 400 combos at your face without lube, so you definitely learn to use to learn your class. maybe you should be able to roll on an instant max level only if you have some max level char on a regular server dunno.
>the problem with instant max level server
I'm not saying having different servers, I'm saying the "campaign" should be optional.
>and it makes people not stick to their class
I don't want to stick to one class. I want to be able to play anything I want when I feel like it, like ASShomosexualS.
>and mmo have so much skills that you need a long progression to learn to use the skills without being overwhelmed
I'm not a moron, I can learn the basics of a class within an hour. That's what tutorials are for (which are optional). And your argument is completely invalidated since you can buy level skips and most people at end game are clueless despite spending hours with their class.
then imagine how much more clueless they would be without levelling and learning abilities progressively
i think sticking to a class is good at the start tpo get inside the world and learn its mechanics for a time otherwise people would change again and again because grass is greener and would never had time to set in the world and maybe would leave and people who play the offroad classes like druid would be in even inferior numbers
>then imagine how much more clueless they would be without levelling and learning abilities progressively
They already are clueless and that's not my problem when I play in a guild of non-morons.
>think sticking to a class is good at the start tpo get inside the world and learn its mechanics for a time
Again, for like the 4th time, I'm saying make it optional. The levelling process has NOTHING to do with end game.
>and people who play the offroad classes like druid would be in even inferior numbers
You can say the exact same for ASShomosexualS, not all specs / heroes are going to be meta. Also, the fact your class you picked 15 years ago is non-meta this patch and your only option is to level again is a stupid argument on its own
To put it in simple terms, it's like being forced to play Half-Life 2 before you're allowed to play Left4Dead with your friends. End-game MMOs and the campaign are so different to each other having that gate adds no value at all
This is true, nothing in the normal XIV progression prepares you for shit like Ultimates and Savages
Frick, even the "job quests" don't actually teach you ANYthing about your job or the skills it unlocks. It's just some short story vignette about Literally Who, and then at the end of it
>oh btw here's this completely unrelated skill. Read the tooltips or something, good luck.
i dont think so thats the whole point of a MMO and there plenty of multiplayer during the levelling if you want to
do whatever you want man lmao
if you want to play left for dead you can just play left for dead anyway you want a raid hub with outdoors zones for wild pvp?
>i dont think so thats the whole point of a MMO
There is no "whole point" of an MMO. MMO's have so many channels of gameplay in end-game for solo content, dungeons, raids. The campaign should be an optional channel, that's it.
Endgame being gated behind 600 hours of "story" is only justifiable if that story campaign forces you to become good at the game to get through it. Unfortunately, it's 600 hours of the most boring, easiest faceroll content you could conceive of so that every moron can get a participation trophy while anyone with a brain has to suffer just to get to the mildly interesting content.
there is absolutely a point to mmos, if not respected then your game is not a mmo anymore
thats like saying any music is just random noise and there is no music genre
that doesnt mean you have no window to move and you cant mingle around the extremities but what the private server shown is that if you dont have some kidn of carrot grind people kinda stop playing, in a game where the more people play, the more people play, and number of people is what keeps a game a live and adds content
destiny monster hunter and other are not mmos. you want to turn mmos into these games. but if you want to play these games you can just play them right now instead of asking to change the stuff you dont like
The entire point of MMOs is a persistent shared world. That's it.
whats the point of a persistent shared worlf if you dont go in it. you just rush to the instances. if you want pvp you want more shit to do than that in the world and you cant add stuff in the world without a carrot. it cant be epic loot because people get it in the dungeons. and how much fricking content and outdoor dungeons canyou make this shit cost money. you re talking in theoreticals yet it never happened in real life for a reason, and your argument about i dont care i know my skills very fast is frickign moronic, mmo means MASSIVELY multiplayer, with your fricking logic yuou ll have 5000 ppl playerbase maximum good for you maybe but how do you get the reurns on your investment?
>whats the point of a persistent shared worlf if you dont go in it. you just rush to the instances.
Instances are an anti-MMO cancer in the first place, so that's not an argument against my position. Endgame would take place in the same world.
NTA and I can get behind an MMO without leveling but the challenge arrives when we try to keep players engaged. What type of progression and content would you implement to make sure that players would want to keep playing? If you go with a vertical progression like WoW you'll run into the issue of wide power gaps between players depending on how long they've been playing. Players that are far ahead in progression will be able to carry lower geared players just like a level 50 would boost a level 20. We could lower the powercreep values to a point where we almost have horizontal progression but that might make progression feel meaningless, we could limit which players are able to play together based on their power level but then we would introduce the problems we're trying to avoid with a leveling system.
>Players that are far ahead in progression will be able to carry lower geared players just like a level 50 would boost a level 20
What's wrong with that? Isn't that the spirit of cooperation? This idea that every player needs to go through 200 hours of solo grinding is stupid, let them get carried and tutored by the better and more advanced players.
Well the problem is that content gets easier as time goes along, if you have 5 raid tiers they'll all be hard at the beginning but as the game goes along you'll have 4 painfully boring grinds and 1 challenging tier of content left. The quality of the game drops exponentially for those that join in late or play less than others.
That's inevitable.
Trying to keep content "relevant" for years never works.
Better to let the veteran players carry newbies to the fresh content and train them up themselves for endgame instead of forcing noobs to endure the old grinds and likely causing them to quit
huuuh no? many p^rivate server compensanted for that, and by that i mean a long fricking time a go
i remember feenix had bosses with much more hp and everything ande even mc would frick with pickup groups on the regular specially magmadar, you actually had to follow the mechanics golemagg would get enraged really bad and had good hp, etc. nothing prevents from tuning up your shit, you can even make more difficult servers for more hardcore players which would naturally remove a bunch of advanced palyers away from noobs
oh sorry i misunderstood you meant getting carried by overgeared players.
well maybe you can put a maximum gearscore limit whatever depending on the gear you have that corresponds to your class/spec
also why would geared players go there even in gdkp the gear isnt interestign its not like nax players are rushing to help noobs with mc
Solving this issue matters a lot if endgame is all there is and there's no leveling experience to fall back on. Players will drop out as the quality of the game drops off because of powercreep, any pvp related content will also get progressively worse as the long time players will demolish new players unless you scale everyone down to the same power level, very few actually like that.
It's a pickle.
But you can't have a constant stream of new players in an aging MMO, that's just not going to happen. You will always end up with a top heavy population.
The appeal of the "leveling experience" is doing it with other players at the same level as you and working together. But this just isn't feasible as a game gets older. Some like FFXI have tried to make this a solo experience instead retroactively, and XIV just made the campaign a solo game from the start, but this defeats the purpose and appeal of the MMO format in the first place, which is to share a world with other players and work together.
If the majority of players are going to be at endgame with a small number of newbies trickling in, then it makes the most sense to let those noobs get to the end with everyone else ASAP so they can join the group.
Instances have shit like level syncing, but as I said before, instances as a concept are anti-MMO in the first place.
There is a solution but I don't think you're going to like it, it is to not have an endgame at all, or at least not in a traditional sense. Rather a game that's a repayable race to the finish where players can optionally level up different characters at various level brackets and interact with other players in the same brackets. A game like Elden Ring on a massive scale. It wouldn't be a forever game because we all know now how much those games start sucking in the long run, it would be a pay once game with a few expansions, and then a sequel. Ensuring a surge of old and new players partaking in a brand new experience each time.
>Rather a game that's a repayable race to the finish where players can optionally level up different characters at various level brackets and interact with other players in the same brackets
That is almost Runescape if you remove the grind.
They have yearly events where players grind up new characters with bonuses to speed the process up
I think the only way to have a constant endgame is to make it PVP centric.
The only games that have a constant playerbase are PVP games; shooters, fighters, MOBAs, etc.
you forgot coop hoard shooters with great proc-gen (aka deep rock galactic)
I wouldn't know, I've never played that
>he never played L2
Have fun never seeing any open world boss or spot worth a damn if you are not in one of the top dog guilds, and you will not get loot from them at all even if you join one.
The point of an MMO is to have a massive amount of players playing together at the same time, that's basically it. Whether it plays like Monster Hunter or World of Warcraft makes no difference.
>there is absolutely a point to mmos
Are you moronic? I never said there wasn't a point, I'm responding to you saying
>thats the whole point of a MMO
I'll repeat, levelling is a gameplay channel and should be optional, not forced.
>just make 95% of your content optional bro
The campaign isn't "95%" of the content. People are spending "95%" of their time doing end-game you fricking sperg.
thats bullshit tohugh in a mmo the vast majority of players will BARELY reach the maximum level and the max level dungeons are not more than the low level dungeons, because you grind the same one dungeon over and over doesnt mean that its more content and not everyone is content with that
>There is no "whole point" of an MMO
>Massively Multiplayer Online
>Solo content
Why have classes at all? Why not just have a base class where you specialize into various roles by picking attributes? It would allow you to experiment with all the archetypes without spending a ridiculous amount of time grinding out another character. People are so fixated on the WoW formula when there are so many other good options out there.
The chase for the meta has been a real disaster for MMORPGs. I will say, there has been a lot more "looseness" around the meta on those hardcore world of warcraft servers. Funnily enough, people seem to be taking it more chill despite the higher stakes. Well, that and I don't think anyone will cry about bringing a hybrid class along to a dungeon run when the healer running out of mana would be a death sentence in an "optimized" party. I wonder how much of this relaxedness is because these hardcore servers naturally attract people who aren't as concerned about their time investment.
Class homogenization is a horrible idea in practice, but it makes sense when you take in to account how people don't like leveling alternate characters. Personally, I prefer playing the more unique classes like warlock and shaman in wow and summoner in FFXI, but more casual players would probably want their character to be more versatile. Well, it is what it is. Online games should never have become a normalgay genre, but such is life.
Normalgays have ruined everything with their zero-immersion, low-investment and low-iq takes on everything. Unfortunately they vastly outnumber the rest of us
There's a big difference between homogenizing classes to a point where they all have access to the same tools and having classes that are just straight up trash compared to everything else. If there's one thing I wish they'd change in classic it's to buff the shit specs like balance druids.
Remove damage dealers.
>Tanks
Actively mitigate damage
Boss positioning
Avoid environment hazards
Balancing thread, mitigation and damage
Pay attention to boss buffs
Pay attention to own buffs
Pay attention to offtank debuffs
>Healers
Higher IQ and better at doing boss mechanics than DPS players
Pay attention to raid health
Damage rotation when not healing
Has to pay attention to boss casts
Pay attention to active tank
Coordinating cooldowns with allies
>Damage dealers
Merely exist because of inflated health pools, doing nothing but a damage rotation. They can't even interrupt spells because they're so low IQ.
Every single PVE game that lacks tanks and healers boils down to people backpeddling to avoid damage and the fight mechanics end up being exactly the same.
so like hunter gatherers taking a bull down or whatever? pretty kino is you ask me
Well, yeah that's exactly the problem. Every encounter plays like that. It's fricking boring.
you could say that about dark souls. its a matter of mechanics really. it feels like sayign ever counter strike encounter is about shooting people to be honest
>you could say that about dark souls
I do say that about dark souls, but dark souls has an excuse because its designed around single player.
healers are sometimes too busy to worry about being a good tank. they would have to be overpowered in order for it to be viablie, and would be need to be tankier or have spells to make them tankier. it would just be too much work because healing can already get crazy sometimes.
same thing with tank really, takes more work than just a regular dps.
need to remove a lot of the cc/buffs/debuffs from those 3 and have more dedicated supports
This, i wish modern MMO's had dedicated buff/debuff classes.
Too many zoomers would cry that parties want the lame debuff players instead of a 37th Super Cool Sword Guy DPS
when tree of savior came out I had fun being a support linker too bad as levels got higher people were less inclined to chill and chat while grinding
I love tanking. I just dont want to care about avoiding damage and i just want to charge into big bad things and groups of small bad things.
I want to wear magnificent heavy armor and bigass shield and i want to frick healer's pussy everyday.
the healer role makes more sense in a game like DnD. The Cleric is the main healer and they can wear heavy armor, they are designed to get into the fray and they are tough. for some reason though, most fantasy video games like the healers to be dainty and squishy and it doesnt make a lot of sense
You don't have "healers" in D&D because 99 times out of 100 it's better to use offensive/defensive/support spells than it is to use healing spells and because your heals to piss all compared to enemy damage output.
My favourite shit is going any stealth class, killing random single squishy targets in world pvp and running the second I sense a whiff of a fair fight
I'm probably part of the problem with world pvp
Based. War Mode completely ruined WoW. I was subscribed for years and all I did was get max level, complete the dungeons once, then log in a few times a week listening to podcasts corpse camping low levels on PVP servers until they angrily PM'd me for lels
i find it so funny than these blizzard trannies call this "war mode" when war mode is just PVE server and pvp tags by typing /pvp or right clicking your portrait, i bet i had 10 times more outdoor pvp action in my pve server in wow vanilla than them with their war mode shite hell my cinematic introduction of my first wcharacter in wow on that small pve server had gnomes with pvp tag on running with their mounts in the tauren second village
>running the second I sense a whiff of a fair fight
Thats the only way I could play rogues in WoW for a while, even if we were equally geared.
Good times, I need something to scratch that itch nowadays but unfortunately I've gotten busier
I hope star citizen gets somewhere near complete one day so I can gank people and blow up their $100,000 real money ships with a group of buttholes
Based. The singular upside to FFXIV having utter dogshit netcode is that it makes PVP incredibly frustrating if you don't play around it, and sometimes even when you do.
>Play Ninja
>Ninja has a meter move that deals some damage, but instakills a target under 50% hp after a 2 second animation lock
>Enemy goes to under 50%
>I mash the move
>Enemy heals up above 50%
>Because the netcode is the way it is, I am already locked into my killing move and it will go through regardless
>Enemy gets animation locked at like 90% HP and gets killed anyway due to netcode
I love being an butthole.
That would be much less frustrating is so many Black folk weren't using cheats to make their shit trigger automatically on anyone within range
I only did the newer PVP thing at the start. Only later did I hear about people making cheat plugins for it. No motivation to set foot in it now
PVP will be cancer as long as SE refuses to do anything about third party cheats
>mmo trinity makes no sense
moron
The reason it arose in the first place was because the core objective of combat even in tabletop RPGs was to reduce life health to 0.
Every archetype revolves around manipulating the speed of that core objective. There's literally no other alternative to the holy trinity once you decide combat will involve health points.
Some RPGs attempted to mix it up like Original Sin where every character can carry aoe damage items and healing scrolls but in the end, you'll still taunt with a tough character and deal big damage with your damage focused character and heal with healers.
The only way you can do away with the holy trinity is if you play a farming mmo or any game that doesn't involve health points
>but in the end, you'll still taunt with a tough character and deal big damage with your damage focused character and heal with healers.
Take taunt away.
Now what will you do?
Name that mmo or rpg that has no taunt
Answer the question
Or is the case that if it doesn't already exist, you literally can't conceive of it?
>game bans you fornlife it it detects addons, or a wiki open on your device
There, I fixed all of your problems
>Whips out my smartphone
Heh, too easy
Unfortunately there aren't enough legit players left on the planet to keep an MMO alive.
Being a dataminer or wiki contributor should be punishable by public execution
>The average player can barely handle tank/dps/healer gameplay
>Ganker thinks making this more complex will work out
>The same Ganker that can't figure out how to use equipment in FF6
These threads are always a good laugh. I wonder what % of posters itt can even played an MMO before.
>This poster thinks he's smarter than the average Ganker poster
>The poster who still thinks Ganker is one person
Smarter? No but I'm confident that I'm a better player than the average modern Ganker user yes.
For one simple reason, I actually play video games.
>Nobody has made EQ, but with better graphics and animations
Yup, waiting...
I never understood the tank. Who targets the tank instead of the DPS? It only works with stupid taunt spells and at that point it's forced gameplay
>It only works with stupid taunt spells and at that point it's forced gameplay
Tanks can work without a taunt as long as the tank has a shit load of CC.
Why can't the tank just be forced to move himself instead of being able to move the boss
>Why can't the tank just be forced to move himself instead of being able to move the boss
Simple
The tank can do both at the same time by charging or grappling the boss.
I like the way you think
What a lot of mmo's neglect is the size factor.
Dnd has mechanics where size and weight are big factors for many different forms of CC.
In mmo's, size is not really a factor at all. Save for a few ultra specifc things.
We need size and weight to matter.
Just think of an mmo where your character's size dictate many interactions/mechanics.
>You're a tank
>You face a boss that is much bigger and heavier than you.
>You have CC such as grappling, charging, knockdown, knockback and etc
>Some either are extremely ineffective or just don't do anything at all because of your size and weight.
>You make yourself as big or bigger than the boss
>Now all your CC actually works on the boss
Of course strength would also be factor. But you get the idea.
And think of the reverse situation where a boss is smaller than you.
>boss is tougher to hit
>Grapples are tougher to land, but are extremely effective once hit
>Charging becomes very ineffective or useless because the boss is too small
Things like that where size has a major impact like this would make things a lot more interesting.
What we need is more aggro variety in mobs. Assassin mobs have a higher aggro percentage against healers and heals, ranged mobs focus on tanks more often, debuff mobs focus on DPS and some type of berserker or CC based mob focused on ranged characters. Also have more tank mobs that buff up their allies like crazy, so you have to focus on both burning down the tank mob and CC'ing his allies so the don't rape you with debuffs, damage or keeping the enemy tank up with heals
the problem is mmos are never about a journey but completing tasks from a list
Seeing Gankeriggers debate game design is always very funny
>I have nothing to say but I must post
I wish MMO's had smart AI enemies.
Not threat meters.
The enemies notice someone healing and do their best to kill/overwhelm them -- and tank can't pull its attention away.
That and real world impact with things so if a huge boss steps on you you're squished, and there should be actual body blocking which would then make protecting your healers and casters interactive and strategic.
I was thinking about this recently.
The fundamental problem is that Tank + Healer account for like 99% of the raids health pool, so dungeons are designed with this in mind.
If you dropped healing down to where tank + healer account for a much smaller fraction, you could balance the dungeon respectively.
reasons for tank characters existing
A:
>DPS but with a large health pool and lower mobility
B:
>stops projetiles with shields or simply having a large hitbox for teamates to hide behind
C:
>tanks are OP, we would run 4 tanks on our team, but its only limited to 1
D:
>tanks are just support characters but with damage reduction instead of healing
F:
>tanks have abilities that make NPC enemies target themselves instead of teamates (taunts)
>its the holy trinity
The holy trinity makes perfect sense from a simple and clean design space that's easy to communicate to players and that's kind of the problem.
I firmly believe that dedicated healers make every multiplayer game worse. It's a shitty non role that encounters need to be over tuned to include unavoidable damage to validate their inclusion. Every game that has healers and tanks would legitimately be better if you just had DPS that could sustain themselves until they make enough major mistakes in a row which would lead to death
I got you
rip
Are there any good action MMOs that don't have stupid shit like gender-locked classes?
the problem with this is the healer. healer is a dumb role that makes no sense, created to simplify the support role and make them be doing something constantly. it's just dumb bad design that devs have settled on like a meme. every character class should have limited healing capability that requires combat downtime. support role should do things that are interesting, not have their eyes glued to depleting hp bars.
Shit idea, nobody likes downtime
Tough shit.
Fund the game right now, out of your own pocket
Do it b***h
I don't work for free, pay me, c**t.
I love it when people re-invent Diablo
>Wouldn't it make more sense if the healer was also the tank?
That's called a paladin.
>After all, if I was an enemy, my first priority to target would naturally be the healer.
That's why there's a tank.
>As it stands now the "tank" would actually be lowest priority to any logical enemy.
Sure, but that requires getting past the tank.
For each revolutionary idea in this thread, there's 50 MMOs out there that have done it, and they're all dogshit because they're stupid ideas. There's nothing wrong with tanks. There's nothing wrong with healers. There's nothing wrong with aggro. No, having everyone be DPS isn't a good idea.
>and they're all dogshit because they're stupid ideas
No, they're dogshit because they were p2w scams by soulless asiatics. The mechanics are generally very well received until the cash shop opens up.
The intention is that a Tank would protect the healer by standing in front of them anon. I believe in the Warhammer MMO that characters had physical presence and tanks could cut off routes to the backline in PvP and what not which would make the trinity function in your specific view. The same could be said of many a tactical game where you block access to the backline with some manner of fighter, Fire Emblem for example.
Regardless, video games are video games, you're looking too hard.
>The intention is that a Tank would protect the healer by standing in front of them anon.
But how does this work when a frick huge beast boss is raining down magic fire everywhere?
Well you see, you simply don't give a boss abilities that players have no way to deal with
anything less than the trinity is just the game decompartmentalizing one of them and shoving them into the other 2
anything more complicated is ultimately useless and unfun
imagine if you had a character that had to apply debuffs and didn't do damage at all and couldn't take damage and couldn't heal.
the basis of combat in mmos is your party deals damage to the enemy until the enemy has no health left while the enemy deals damage to you until you have no health left.
these 3 concepts are the most basic ways you play the game.
Some MMOs have support classes that do nothing but buff the party and/or debuff the enemy. They deal zero damage and zero healing. They're some of the most sought after classes in those games.
Sounds like they are in such high demand because nobody likes playing those classes
There's demand because people want those classes in their parties, because they're so good that it's better to have them over another damage dealer. Your
>anything more complicated than the holy trinity is useless and unfun
is wrong.
There would be no demand left if the supply was high
What kind of moronic logic is that? If there's more supply than demand, that just means there's more of something than there are people wanting it. It doesn't mean no one wants that something. Did you fail high school economics?
b***h you cannot justify game design on just "it was good because there was high demand"
I know why there was high demand! Because those classes were rare! Why were they rare?! Because they were boring to play!
>it was good because there was high demand
No one said that.
>there was high demand because the classes were rare
No, there was high demand because they were some of the most vital classes to succeed in any party setting. Just like most parties need a healer and a tank. If there was a class that did literally nothing but instantly wipe its own party after 2 seconds, they would be super rare because no one would play that, but that wouldn't make it a highly demanded class, you fricking idiot.
I don't think you understand that "demanded" and "essential" are two different words.
There are a lot of games where tanks are essential but not in demand because they are a popular role to play
If tanks are essential, then they're in high demand. Every time a party types in chat "looking for tank", that's demand. Or in modern MMOs when everything is done through group finder, every time there's a tank slot open, that's demand.
I just told you a scenario where they are not in high demand even if essential you dumb b***h
HEY TAP WATER IS ESSENTIAL BUT ALSO NOT REALLY IN DEMAND
And I just showed you the dictionary definition which proves your definition is stupid. You're confusing demand with a lack of supply.
>no one wants tap water
If the role was fun the supply would be higher than the demand. What's hard to understand about that argument?
you can remove them from the game and nothing changes, they are redundant. their gameplay boils down to maintaining buffs, which is either extremely boring if it's easy, or it takes the worst part of playing a dps, juggling cooldowns, and builds the entire class around them.
>imagine if you had a character that had to apply debuffs and didn't do damage at all and couldn't take damage and couldn't heal.
they used to exist and we called them mezzers and they were crucial parts of any successful high end EQ/DAoC party or raid.
then WoW came around and ruined everything.
>imagine if you had a character that had to apply debuffs and didn't do damage at all and couldn't take damage and couldn't heal.
lol
lmao even
Get a load of this WoWbabby that has no idea how vast the genre was before WoW came along and hamstrung the entire thing.
it's a bit rich to ascribe "richness" to characters so simplistic that you could play half a dozen of them solo at the same time. imagine playing only one at a time, how boring that is. so remove all the boring ones, and what are you left with?
what in the ever living psudeo intellectual frick nonsense did you just try to say?
i used to main both a mezzer and a LA zerk in DAoC. LA Zerk was a DPS god but was boring as frick even with the situationals and rotationals you had to use all the time, compared to the mezzer who had a dozen different CC spells at half a dozen different levels that you would constantly use to keep enemies mezz'd as long as possible (since different levels of spells had different diminshing returns) all while doing the mental math to know which targets you've cast what spells on since the game had a rolling 60 seconds for all dimishing returns on CC. and that's just the mezz/cc spells, that's not getting into the debuffs/buffing that the class also did.
there was way more that went into playing a mez sorc in DAoC than there has ever been in any modern MMO starting with WoWs rise, and it's not even remotely close.
adding to your game a class with 7 different polymorphs instead of just 1 sounds like it would make for a really boring game. it does sound like it would be fun to be the guy managing those though.
>sounds like it would make for a really boring game
no, it added way more depth to what you were doing at any given time.
new era of MMOs you just use whatever the highest level spell is for your ability. older MMOs you'd still use the lower level spells all the time as they generally had better mana efficiency, or faster cast times, or other shorter cooldowns, etc etc.
it makes the game way more engaging when you have to actually think about what you're doing rather than following a generic rotation.
MMO players are the best example of why you should never listen to your audience. Everything wrong with the genre is something they asked for, usually in the name of convenience, or because "it's not really needed anyways" or "it's a waste of time". Now they're dealing with the consequences and are surprised.
it's such a shame too. MMOs pre wow weren't perfect by any means, but there was so much goddamn potential for the entire genre.
then WoW came out and homoginized EVERYTHING and for the next decade it was nothing but wow clones and shitty kmmos, and by the time companies started trying to break away from the wow model, the MMO genre was in its death knell, just limping along.
you talk to pre-WoW mmo players and post-WoW mmo players and their ideas and experiences while playing are so drastically different it's like they're two completely different genres.
They essentially are two different genres. Rather than grouping up for experience, you do solo quests. Rather than exploring a world, you stay in a hub and get randomly matched with strangers and teleported to the dungeon in question. Combat consists of pressing the same buttons over and over according to your rotation. WoW completely destroyed the genre.
Did Ragnarok Online have the holy trinity?
that's why the tank is an active participant in combat - getting in the way and blocking hits. Like, you know, a shield. Like in your picture.
>that's why the tank is an active participant in combat - getting in the way and blocking hits
In which game does this happen? Because every game I've played just has the tank standing against the wall hitting the aggro buttons while everyone else wails on its ass. It's the exact opposite of active
asmongold viewers are so obnoxious. moron dumb itch sperg etc
Everything is a dps.
DPS cant handle the damage? get a healer
DPS still cant handle the damage? now you have a tank
The healer/tank cant do mechanics? Now you have a buffer/debuffer class.
MMORPGs were originally designed to be like TTRPGs and dungeon crawlers. At least on Table Top, enemies can't just go straight for your casters (at least if you're set up properly) because of a mechanic called "attacks of opportunity," which lets you get a free hit in if they try to move away from you in melee range. This can be deadly in TTRPGs where health pools are much smaller and survival is based mostly around not getting hit at all.
MMOs are much damage-spongier, both for the players and their enemies, so they replaced attacks of opportunity with the threat mechanic. It basically measures who seems the most threatening to the NPC at that particular moment. So, from the NPC's perspective, you've got this loud butthole in armor shouting at you, and this weird guy in a priest robe mumbling to himself in the corner and you might not necessarily put together that said weird guy might be the one causing the loud butthole's wounds to stitch back together.
The "Holy Trinity" is unbreakable because MMORPGs have largely moved away from classic dungeon crawling mechanics and they have not really embraced any kind of randomization or chaos, both of which would encourage diversifying your skills rather than specializing in one thing. What's more, they've completely abandoned the Support/Utility role, which developers were always shy about even when they were trying it. In order for Support/Utility to work, they need a LOT of support abilities and/or utility to justify bringing them over another damage dealer. Many developers are too shy about giving them really powerful support abilities that would truly justify their slot in the party or raid.
Very much this. The TTRPG roots of MMORPGs are a big part of this debate. The paladins and fighters were frontline and the healers and nukers were backline. The move to larger 3d battles made things more complicated, and enemies could just move past the tanks to easily reach the backline. Enmity management had to be added.
But the battles aren't 3D. The graphics are 3D but there is no vertical component to movement in most MMORPGs. Bosses will never jump over you.
Bosses dont need to jump over you they just move through you. Even a wall of tanks cant hold them in most MMOs.
In old TTRPG a player and enemy could not occupy the same grid location or pass through each other. A front row of melee and tanks could hold the line and act as a barrier protecting the backline.
In 3d mmorpgs it seems they gave up on this and the enemies just walk through you to attack who they want. There is less advantage to fighting in narrow corridors or choke points like you could in TTRPGs because most games are not designed well enough. They have to rely on a tanks provokes and other skills to hold hate.
Also non-tactical rpgs had early form of tanks as determined by battle formation even in the 8-bit era.
>the enemy has a 50% chance to target your top character, 25% for your second character, and 12.5% for your third and fourth.
So tank goes top, DPS goes in second slot, healer goes backline with the glass canon dps. The roles were always there.
Forgot pic.
That was really cool 20 years ago but it has gotten old, it's time to let go and try something new.
Whats funny is that the MMO trinity can only work with moronic AI.
Make the AI smarter so it can decide who to aggro and the entire game falls apart
A real tank is a heavy hitter designed to do massive damage to important targets like buildings and other tanks. Infantry protects the tank because the tank is easily outflanked by other infantry. The healer analogy would be the logistics crew making sure the tank has enough fuel and ammo to keep running.
The mmo trinity perverts this relationship. I want the expendable dps to die protecting their big main battle tank.
if games were designed like this you'd get a bunch of people playing tanks expecting to have armies to drones to carry them