The sanctity of this place has been fouled.
Diablo 2 opened a pandora's box for the ARPG and dungeoncrawler genres by emphasizing an endless grind rather than moment to moment gameplay and tension of Diablo 1
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>moment to moment gameplay
pennjillette.png
Play geneforge
diablo, diablo 2, and PoE are all fantastic games, your opinion is wrong
>Diablo 2 opened a pandora's box for the ARPG and dungeoncrawler genres by emphasizing an endless grind rather than moment to moment gameplay and tension of Diablo 1
Agreed completely. D2 is good and reasonably fun, but lacks the atmosphere and pacing that D1 was so amazingly full of. On the bright side D2 led to Titan Quest which was fun as hell.
>PoE
Is it all that good? I've tried to get into it a few times and it feels so dull and boring. I have the same issue with Grim Dawn as well.
diablo was a game, you go into a dungeon, you kill some things, there's some loot and items that give you a few options. Diablo 2 is an all consuming fever dream of bullshit.
Back in the day I watched hardened potheads who otherwise wouldn't go for 2 hours without rolling a joint, but this game even overrode their deepest addiction. Hello Skinner Box
people who are actually good at the game know what to pick up and 99% of it is unnecessary, you are turning it into a chore by being moronic
>people who are actually good at the game
professional hamsters who have mastered trying to reach the carrot on a stick?
you don't need to be a professional, you just need to not be moronic. people hoard white items and obsess over collecting and returning to town to sell every single item that drops and then they call the game a tedious cookie clicker or equivalent. literally just play the fricking game and learn what's worth picking up and what isn't, it's not hard. it's funny to me that people pretend D1 is somehow less tedious just because it has 1/100th as many items and features but they have no issue with ridiculously moronic core issues like the lack of a simple run button or the stilted combat. it's just fricking stupid. D1 is a good game but D2 is the fricking GOAT and criticisms like this are moronic.
150% this, a fricking rational and sane take
thank frick.
whenever i hear some gay whine about no run button in d1 i know they just mindlessly run from one group of mobs in d2 to the next in the big empty overworld areas farming up their gay little green sets instead of enjoying a solid dungeon crawl to hell
and when someone is fine with there being no run button then i know they're completely braindead bores
Just turn up the speed, not a big deal
even the Hellfire expansion gives a run in town at least, Diablo 1 is fricking slow
That's what I'm saying. With DevilutionX you can adjust the game speed on the fly and run in town on top of that.
ah man, that's nice
Diablo 2 is better though
Diablo 2 would be better if walking and the whole stamina system were just cut from the game, change my mind.
pretty unanimously agreed upon thing, there's no real reason for the stamina beyond the Act 2 badies giving you some trouble
I played both games at release, and I was never impressed by D2. The only people I know that hold D2 as a GOAT are turbo normies that were hooked on the multiplayer grind aspect
That's the entire thing between Diablo 1 and 2 itemization. If I'm decked out with magic items in Diablo 1 I'm still picking up what ever blue item that drops because it potentially has a huge impact on my character. That isn't the case for Diablo 2, because as you said, 99% of the items are skippable. Blues will mean nothing, same with a lot of greens, only certain yellows, it isn't as exciting finding a new item because most are so bad you don't even need to identify the item to know it's bad.
lots of blues were good though, but yellows were better, and it's a toss up of gold or green from there
it's a game.
D2's itemization works in layers. if i'm a vet and I start a new character I'm going to ignore almost everything on normal mode because it'll be trash, yes, but this isn't the case for hell or even nightmare in some cases. the beautiful thing about D2's design is that theoretically, everything has a use and purpose, but it's about knowing when and why to use it. for example, a blue sword might be total garbage that i ignore most of the time but if i've just started a new character then it's likely an upgrade from my starting gear, so i might grab it. a good player knows what to pick up and when, and can quickly identify from a mere glance what will be of value at the given moment. you might pass over 200 shitty swords, but if you one day decide you want to make a certain cube recipe, boom, those shitty swords can now have some inherit value and you might seek them out. the obvious counterargument here is to say, "but how can you know what's worth picking up unless you have tons of experience! you have to waate all that time just to know in the first place!", this is a fair point to a degree, but let's face it, these games were made to be played for literal decades and if you can't be bothered to learn the ins and outs of a new game on your first playthrough, then you probably just dont like ARPGs that much in general. there is nothing wrong with D2's approach to itemization unless you are stubbornly unwilling to learn or have some kind of weird hoarder complex where you feel physically uncomfortable neglecting every item you see. it's just a weak criticism in the face of D1 which has problems that run a lot deeper.
>but let's face it, these games were made to be played for literal decades and if you can't be bothered to learn the ins and outs of a new game on your first playthrough, then you probably just dont like ARPGs that much in general
Diablo 1 doesn't take 100s of hours of grinding and trial-and-erroring skill trees
I tend to like Diablo 1 a bit more for the reasons a lot of people ITT have already outlined, but what do you guys specifically think was better with D1 as compared to D2? I’m actually working on a real-time roguelike game and want to capture that almost survival-horror aspect of Diablo 1 while avoiding the loot grind feel. And no, I’m not trying to make a typical indie roguelike that uses elements from Binding of Isaac with deadly boss battles and bullet hell stuff, much more on the slower tactical side, preferably with a similar saving system of D1 or 2 and optional permadeath.
Do you think D2 was just overloaded with too much stuff (lots of skills, item classes, sub types of items in those classes, items with many affixes, gem socketing, etc)? Was it just the pacing with how often you come across new stuff? Something else?
Honestly the synergy patch just exacerbated the loot lottery aspect of D2. They over bloated enemy HP and damage so as a melee character you're looking for gear to reduce incoming damage, and various modifiers like crushing blow because you deal so little damage that you need percentage based damage to carry you.
You also have to realize that Diablo 2 on normal isn't a loot grind as well, you can get by with what you find, but on the other hand it is training wheels for the meat of the game because you get very little to no usage of your level 24/30 skills if the game ends at act 4/5 normal. Hence why D2 turns into loot grinding once you're get to nightmare depending on your class. Sometimes starting the loot grind with normal Baal, but often devolving into it by nightmare Mephisto. So your game might not have many difficulties and could be a one and done adventure.
You’re talking about the patch that introduced synergies, v1.10?
DII isn't overbloated.
If you want that, you should play Path of Exile. PoE did good by removing gold and replacing it with a usable item economy. But its a bloated mess where there is no actual consideration into how the game plays before you reach endgame.
Its essentially everything wrong with MMO levelling condensed into a simple diablo clone.
Or put it a bit more simple: DII is overbloated, but that isn't a issue until you reach the 2nd and third difficulties. And its designed to be a actual game, where levelling and playing the entire of NG is a experience.
You can with some struggle almost get to Baal using shitty blue/yellow gear, except for the fact there isn't enough EXP in the overworld even on player8. So you should grind, because your hit chance is softcapped by you being underlevelled.
JRPGs handle loot way better than any WRPG does, and that includes MMOs.
That doesn’t really tell me much my guy. Never played any JRPGs. What is it you like about the loot system in those versus Diablo 1?
Hey, I'm also working on a ARPG Diabe-girlke game!
Show us what you've got Anon, don't be shy
Show us your game anon.
sure thing.
at this point I feel like I post it often enough that most Anons who check D1 threads have seen it
Nice. Hope you finish it someday anon.
thanks anon
he spams heals if you try to kite him. If you just stand still and melee him down while chugging 2-3 potions he goes down easy
this is my passion project - it’s really fun to work on since it’s a ton of mechanics that have to work together to make the game run. there’s also a lot of random generation algorithms for items, chests and dungeons, which are challenging to make.
most of my time is spent doing work for other games or alpha testing releases, and having a full time job, so I just spend my free time doing this and posting the results for people to try out
meant to respond to you, not the anon above you
Bruh how the frick do you get past the first boss after only one floor. Is there a trick or something?
i applaud your skills and effort in actually making a game, something I do not have the ability to do, but man, this is literally just a really moronic diablo clone. can't you take this skill and make something original?
A moronic Diablo clone is exactly what I have been wanting for decades.
Looking good
I'd tell you but as lame as it sounds I'm a little wary of inadvertently doxing myself. I might just be being a wuss though.
Technically its a rougelike first person shooter that I have a lot of programming effort put into - multiple years - but it has thus far been stuck in development hell as far as gameplay concepts go. Partly that is because for me shooters feel like they're at a bit of design dead end personally and I've been recently devoting time to another project of mine instead (an RTS game). Still, Diablo 1 and Nox are my favorite ARPGs and still inform a lot of what I think are fun about them, and it feels like it should be relatively simple to apply the formula to a Doom-like shooter, because it still feels like we have yet to have a roguelike shooter that captures a lot of the same complexity, strategy, and feel of them, but I guess the problem is a lot harder than I was giving it credit for.
Sorry for rambling, I dig your game, I played it a while back and I liked the direction!
hope you release one day anon!
imo one of the things that makes roguelikes/lites particularly engaging is when progress is slow but also steady and deliberate. While Diablo 1 can maybe feel too slow when you discover that the next set of stairs are on the opposite side of the floor you already mostly cleared, for the most part it does a good job constantly engaging you, preventing you from rushing ahead out of fear of getting swarmed, encouraging you to check out chests as you find them. Doom & co especially today with easier aiming and basic controls by contrast often rely heavily on circle-strafe combat, withholding attacking until you've corralled enemies for the BFG, or just running by shit. I think a rougelite fps would need to strike a balance between those two, perhaps with higher-stakes gameplay (e.g. you kill enemies quickly but they kill you just as quick) and definitely with a very slow weapon upgrade curve and tight ammo/item supply to prevent the player from just utilizing their favorite one or two weapons over and over.
Thanks for the response, that gives me some new things to think about! And also I identify a lot with what you were saying about working on passion projects because of the wealth of mechanics you can get your hands dirty with. The shooter I’ve been working on is a sequel to this: https://gravitygames.itch.io/cthon
I’m still really proud of it but it’s also flawed in many ways. In several ways it jives with what you’re talking about with slower pacing, slow power curve, tight resources, and high lethality of enemies, but I think it tended to attract people wanting a straight Doom-like slaughter fest without really attracting many that wanted a tense roguelike. Maybe the overlap of the two camps is smaller than I’d expected; I love both genres so it seemed natural to try to fuse them together.
I’ll try to post a webm or screenshot of the of the one I’m working on some time today, but it’s mainly just graphics and not much gameplay.
>sequel
CTHON is your game? very nice work anon, it looks stellar
Yep! Appreciate ya!
D1 is drastically better than 2, but 2 is still excellent. D1 is just pretty much a perfect game, so it's hard to match.
>perfect game
>cant even run
Why lie?
You can in Hellfire :^)
There are several competing projects in the works, but none of them are complete. There appears to be less interest in a D2 source port since it can still run on pretty much any PC anyway.
I wish they did more with D1. I know its made for multiple playthroughs so they don't give you many quests at once, but more would've been nice, especially something other than 'kill this boss' or 'find this item'.
*hard disagree*
Diablo 2 is a unilateral upgrade, everything that you could like about Diablo 1 is improved, even the atmosphere. hipsters are the only ones who bend over backwards to put the first one on a pedestal higher than the bigger better sequel.
Is there an equivalent do Devilution for Diablo 2?
Nope, the people who reversed engineered it never released the source.
yessir, there's a project to open source Diablo 2 all the same. Diablo 1 had the advantage, seeing as how Japan left some files on their localization that led to Devilution being created. Diablo 2 it all has to be done from scratch.
but the thing about Diablo 2 is that there's a full on 4k remake that's fantastic already. and there's a singleplayer mod that lets you play with multiplayer content and a lot more qol for the original Diablo 2. and on private servers there's different modifications leading to a more streamlined experience.
Diablo 2 was so popular that it has gotten many solutions for any individual thing. Diablo 1 has got a few variations of essentially the same thing. DevilutionX is a open source touch up, Beelzebub is an HD mod that adds back cut content and such, Hell2 is a gameplay overhaul that adds more mechanics and challenges to the game. there's probably a few i'm forgetting.
Diablo 2 is not an upgrade, going from methodical dungeon crawling to mindless sprinting while casting AoE abilities while you grind color coded loot is boring as hell.
methodical dungeoneering is just buzzwords, there's more content, there's more dungeons, there's more enemies, there's more items, there's more spells, skills, abilities, there's MORE
imagine wanting more Diablo 1, putting it on a pedestal and wanting more of that - BLATANT ignoring the fact it has a sequel that is EXACTLY THAT. it's so fricking stupid.
They're completely different games anon. I love both on their own, but I prefer D1 among the Diablo series.
>They're completely different games anon.
one is called Diablo 1, the other is called Diablo 2
astute observation Captain Obviousness
>there's MORE
The definition of inflation is that more = sucks.
If you can't feel the difference in atmosphere, and can't understand that the difficulty progression is so much worse in D2, then I feel bad for you
D2 has a strictly worse atmosphere and difficulty progression compared to 1. D2 starts to outstay its welcome after the desert area.
the atmosphere is superior on account of having more locations and spaces to possess strong atmosphere, so try again without saying shit like >"muh h8 act 2"
More locations, yes. But worse atmosphere. This is apparent right from the start where you are strutting around in the sunny english countryside, the dark pressing horror aspect is severely diluted, becoming more like some kind of high fantasy epic with a touch of dark as the game progresses. The small tumours that would blossom into the full fledged cancer that is modern blizzard writing were starting to form around this time
>sunny english countryside
you're such a disingenuous frick
Does or does not D2 start in a setting that can be described as "sunny english countryside"? And does that setting not go on for hours, leading to... sunny Arab desert? And does that not lead to... sunny tropical rainforest? D2 is an epic high fantasy adventure, D1 is a gritty crawl down to hell. D1 is focused, tight. D2 is bloated, messy, too long.
I wouldn’t describe it as “sunny”, the countrysides of D2 are meant to be somewhat gothic and spooky. A problem with D2 is that you aren’t spending most of your time down in the dark, you’re traveling over great distances and punctuating it with dark dungeons. With D1, there’s only one direction to go, which is down. That makes it feel a lot grimmer.
and the original 1.0 Diablo 2 actually has a stormy Stony Fields, lightning constantly blicking
and the potions hardly ever drop from monsters.
D1 shitters don't know, or rather cannot comprehend how vastly superior D2 is.
>1.0 stormy lightning in stony field
what the frick, i dont remember this. sauce naow
I mean, I can, because I have played both extensively and still enjoy D1 more. That doesn’t mean that I hate D2 or anything, but even one of the devs said it didn’t have quite the same thread.
I bought D2 at release and it's on my shelf. 1.0 still has a sunny english countryside, the frick are you talking about
The rain storm in stony fields isn't specific to it, but the rocky bits that randomly generate in the area are. The stormy weather can appear anywhere outdoors in Act 1. Look in the gamedata mpq under Levels.txt and you'll see each areas characteristics.
i dont remember storms of any capacity in D2, anywhere. just occasional rain. post a video because i dont believe you
It's just a rain storm as I said. The lightning he is thinking of is probably the shit from the Cairn Stones.
>frog poster
opinion discarded
Yep. Endlessly playing the loot lottery just for the sake of it is toxic as frick.
MUH RAER DROPS!
On a hypothetical level what would you need to make a spiritual successor to Diablo 1 and avoid falling for D2 style design?
I'm thinking a big part of it would be to keep the power curve of items relatively flat. D1 only having magic items and uniques with only a few mods compared to D2 with its rares, uniques and runewords plays a big part in making the loot less important. Sure, finding a strong item in D1 is great but it's not necessary. You can make do with what you find on a run.
What about the skill system? Is having skills for melee and ranged in the style of D2 antithetical to a D1 style game? Maybe you could at least add some hybrid spells like Magic Arrow to support hybrid playstyles. Give it a dex/magic requirement to learn and obviously require a bow to use.
Mate I think the rule change was a big mistake too but I'm not going to do a Diablo larp about it.
D2 got a a pass even before the rule change
Thank you, finally someone says it. Diablo 2 isn't just more of Diablo 1, it lost something. It wasn't until Demons' Souls that Diablo 1 received a proper successor. Anyone who disagrees didn't play and love both games when they were new.
Demon's Souls is one of the greatest games ever made and so is D2.
>It wasn't until Demons' Souls that Diablo 1 received a proper successor.
since when did preferring D1 become a meme opinion I just think the town is comfy and the game is spookier
>sunny Arab desert
>arrive in cozy english hamlet
>chat with the locals
>go on a romp in the cellar
such scary
Diablo 1 is from the golden age when videogames were artistic and meant to be played for fun. I used to go online with a friend and my brother it was an absolute blast.
Diablo 2 is the absolute tail end of that golden age, just before games went from artistic to autistic and people played them for quick dopamine OOHH HIGH RUUNES IT'S A ONE IN FORTY BILLION CHANCE YEEEEESS
Diablo 2 gameplay loop is the direct precursor of loot box bullshit, it is a game designed to hook degenerate homosexuals who smoke pot and watch porn.
Look at Diablo Immortal. Diablo 3. Diablo 4 is going to be the same, a game made to be an addictive chase of random chance, massive screenwiping AoE, casual difficulty until you reach Double Torture Hell DLC difficulty where every thing is the same but the numbers are sooo hiigh!!
I don't get hooked on D1, I just walk through town and listen to the townsfolk, I crawl down to level 16 and kill Diablo. Then I stop playing for 9-18 months until I want to play it again. If an Activision Blizzard executive heard anyone suggest that type of Play for Fun experience they'd fire them.
this is true!
Man i love this game.
I put Tristram music on in the house and walk around slowly while I contemplate the dark and gothic environment around me.
I will NOT respond to my wife unless she prompts me with
>Welp, what can I do fer ya?!
Or
>Please, listen to me. The Archbishop Lazarus, he lead us down here to find the lost Prince. The bastard lead us into a trap. Now everyone is dead, killed by a demon he called The Butcher. Please, find this Butcher and slay him so that our souls may finally rest
If she doesn't I'll hit that dumb b***h with a
>Yep, that's a cow alright
Which usually sends her running to Cathedral level 1 (our basement) crying like an idiot.
When I am overburdened or need to put something down I rip it into the air beside me and let it spiral into the ground.
It's not enough to simply play a game as immersive as this. You need to really soak in it.
shut the frick up
Chill out bud
10/10