This is the best post in the thread.
ATB is garbage but X-2 proved that it doesn't have to be. Add in the dress sphere job system and from a gameplay perspective it's technically in the top 3 of all FF titles.
Shame that the game was treated as an inferior product from the moment it released, but I guess that's what happens when you push the girl power angle to such a cringe degree. Any other game with its story would have done just fine.
This. They threw the baby out with the bathwater, letting go of such a competent combat system just because the game didn't sell well enough. They took the wrong lessons from this, any other FF would be elevated with the ATB from X-2.
>but I guess that's what happens when you push the girl power angle to such a cringe degree.
I used to think like this, but as I grew older I don't mind it anymore. Guess that shows you regressed/stagnant on actual maturity.
not that guy but I think the extreme shift from the very male-centric story of FFX to YRP may have been too much. Tidus' dad issues were a very male thing and both Jecht and Auron were standout characters compared to the rest of the cast. The only dudes left over were Wakka and that stupid cat so it makes sense to focus on Yuna but they did take it in a very weird direction by making them pop idols.
https://github.com/rebtd7/FF13Fix
Use this for the first two games. Steam Deck/Linux can use this too. Just make sure you enable the dll with the right command options. I highly recommend the HD model mod with the boost in performance you have to spare with the fixes installed.
Felt like it was an alternative version of SaGa formations which is always a good thing but its no joke when people say the entire first 20 hours is a glorified tutorial, I don't even think you get to have 3 party members at once for more than maybe an hour of that intro sequence
Awkward, but surprisingly fun once you get the hang of it. Unfortunately this comes much faster than the game actually lets you play around with it, which is one of the reasons I greatly preferred XIII-2.
Boy I have a big spreadsheet about this but I'll summarise >COM has many skills proc automatically by using normal attacks under certain conditions
Launch for instance should have been made into a regular selectable command, and some other procs too like knocking an enemy down from the air, critting when they're about to leave stagger, etc >RAV, SYN and SAB have way too many skills to quickly scroll through in the command list, so people just click autobattle or slot the same stack every turn
I think it should be similar to Legend of Legaia, since that also has an "ATB" bar that you filled with a sequence of commands, but it does so by using directional inputs. You could use the face buttons plus a bumper/trigger to quickly input commands in the same way, which I guess is not unlike FFXIV as well. Pic related, quick mock-up I made
Also to save on inputs, higher levels of the same spell can be input by holding the corresponding face button >Medic and Sentinel had jack shit skills to choose from >Each character has largely the same pool of commands in a given role, with some just having a smaller selection, which makes them objectively worse and not worth using rather than being a variation on the playstyle of that role
Having steelguard, mediguard and elude is a good start, but let's make different characters focus on one or two to differentiate them, and give each a corresponding counter and provoke type as well. Likewise healing by percentage vs raw value, single target vs AOE, etc >Techniques
Fold them into the roles or just make them all items, bizarre that there even was this separate resource to begin with >Full ATB skills
Just make them limit breaks, and give them to each character's "main" role as an ultimate move for that style of play, e.g. Hope now instead has Medic -> Renew to revive everyone, fully restore all HP, and remove all debuffs, Sazh performs Synergist -> Mighty Guard to apply a frickload of buffs to the party at once and so on
Oh and how could I forget >You can't change party leader in battle and if they die it's game over, even if another party member could revive them
Fix that shit
>Launch for instance should have been made into a regular selectable command, and some other procs too like knocking an enemy down from the air, critting when they're about to leave stagger, etc
those skills being based on timing and condition rather than "i want to do x now" make the battle system more dynamic.
agree with pretty much everything else but still think 13's battle system is overall pretty fun
>those skills being based on timing and condition rather than "i want to do x now" make the battle system more dynamic.
Personally I think the opposite, since they happen automatically it makes it more static and demands less of the player who is just mashing the attack button. It should be an expectation on the player to recognise that an enemy is vulnerable and exploit that weakness accordingly (i.e. using launch when they're staggered, deathblow when they're at low HP, smite when they're about to recover from stagger, and so on) just as with elemental or status vulnerabilities. Of course, it comes with the trade off that using those commands inappropriately will cause them to miss or fail or whatever (i.e. launch won't work on a non-staggered enemy just as fira won't work if the enemy is immune to fire). Boom, timing and conditions, just with less automation
I agree with most of these, but add the painful delay from paradigm shifting. It kills the pacing, there are better ways to lower the skill floor.
Also, I think a couple of these are in Lightning Returns already.
>Launch for instance should have been made into a regular selectable command, and some other procs too like knocking an enemy down from the air, critting when they're about to leave stagger, etc
those skills being based on timing and condition rather than "i want to do x now" make the battle system more dynamic.
agree with pretty much everything else but still think 13's battle system is overall pretty fun
That would work if the actual skills had variety AND contextual effects, rather than only the "real" COM skills having fancy conditions.
That way, there's more than one thing to choose to do in different phases, like choosing to launch vs. knocking them into other enemies for aoe/stun.
I'd also limit buffs or only allow self-buffs so it isn't an obvious laundry list of tickboxes to fill every fight and round of stagger. Juggling buff timers is plain busywork without strategy.
I mean if I were listing every issue we'd be here all day. But yeah definitely fix that too
Also the improvements made in XIII-2 and LR indicate even the dev team realised the flaws of this game's systems
>ff12 was very challenging for me
Did you play IZJS in Japanese when you were 10 or something? XII was never all that hard in the original but especially not in The Zodiac Age where you can mix any two jobs and get a busted combination in some respect. My brother has a clip saved of him melting the Rafflesia boss in like 8 seconds
1 year ago
Anonymous
TZA is a joke difficulty-wise. Although, you could never really frick yourself over in any FF12 version unless you did something stupid like totally ignoring healing.
I hate autoattacks to a very high degree. I don't dislike how the equipment and options work, but every other game does individual aspects better.
XI mixes job options better(not very difficult, all told)
XIV does the moving around better since DDR red circles is at least better than extremely limited aggro management.
XIII lets you queue up actions in more intuitive chunks
XII's limit breaks are kinda unique, but kill other strategies and non-squeenix titles managed the limit break chaining better.
Sphere Grids are still better than licenses.
Like, gambits are neat, but not worth crippling everything else.
Good, probably my 2nd favorite combat next to X's turn based, but thats just me preferring pure turn based.
Though we never really got to see it shine and get to see it at its peak. I like it more for its potential than its execution. Firstly for being in such a meh game, but also because in the original FFXIII, there are a few flaws with the system. Specifically the animation that plays when you first switch a paradigm takes too long and the battle continues, causing you to lose stagger or take damage during it. More importantly however, the game decides that if your controlling character is KOed, its game over, even if you have plenty of Phoenix Downs, your two other characters can revived, they're at full health. Doesn't matter. The second you enter a battle and you're ganged up on by 5 enemies in the first 10 seconds before you do anything, its game over. Its a dumb feature that almost ruins the battle system.
So in XIII-2 they get rid of the whole if the leader dies its game over thing, you just switch to another party member and can revive, and they get rid of paradigm shift animations. However they instead add a gimmicky feature of being able to capture monsters and use them in battle.
So I don't think we ever saw this battle system as good as it is, live up to its potential. It wasn't in a decent game, and the tweaked, improved version of the battle system was instead used for a sequel and in hand with a gimmicky enemies as party members feature.
I'd have liked to have seen the improved XIII-2 battle system in another mainline Final Fantasy, with a full party that you can switch between etc. instead of just a two person party with monsters.
Oh yeah, by better I dont mean the originals were bad, just that they're my favorite combat systems and they're all in sequels that are known not to have good narratives.
It's great, only thing to make it better is to have more customization.
I wasn't a fan of the pokemon stuff in XIII-2 but otherwise it was great there too.
LR's was amazing.
I rather liked the system itself, but it's just not built for your throwaway fights. It shines during boss battles. I don't want to play Simon Says with every single dipshit I come across, though. Paradigm vs Paradigm made Cid fight the most interesting one in the game for me.
While the combat in LR looks great, all the costumes for Lightning outside of the default look terrible and I hate that it's mandatory to change into them
Quite fun.
The best thing there is, honestly.
X-2 did the whole thing better
This is the best post in the thread.
ATB is garbage but X-2 proved that it doesn't have to be. Add in the dress sphere job system and from a gameplay perspective it's technically in the top 3 of all FF titles.
Shame that the game was treated as an inferior product from the moment it released, but I guess that's what happens when you push the girl power angle to such a cringe degree. Any other game with its story would have done just fine.
This. They threw the baby out with the bathwater, letting go of such a competent combat system just because the game didn't sell well enough. They took the wrong lessons from this, any other FF would be elevated with the ATB from X-2.
>but I guess that's what happens when you push the girl power angle to such a cringe degree.
I used to think like this, but as I grew older I don't mind it anymore. Guess that shows you regressed/stagnant on actual maturity.
not that guy but I think the extreme shift from the very male-centric story of FFX to YRP may have been too much. Tidus' dad issues were a very male thing and both Jecht and Auron were standout characters compared to the rest of the cast. The only dudes left over were Wakka and that stupid cat so it makes sense to focus on Yuna but they did take it in a very weird direction by making them pop idols.
I want to try XIII but I heard the PC port is terrible and even worse on steam deck
I never had any problems with it although XIII-2 was a different story
https://github.com/rebtd7/FF13Fix
Use this for the first two games. Steam Deck/Linux can use this too. Just make sure you enable the dll with the right command options. I highly recommend the HD model mod with the boost in performance you have to spare with the fixes installed.
>On the ATB
That’s not even the interesting part. The Paradigm system is what actually stands out.
Felt like it was an alternative version of SaGa formations which is always a good thing but its no joke when people say the entire first 20 hours is a glorified tutorial, I don't even think you get to have 3 party members at once for more than maybe an hour of that intro sequence
fun but kinda limited and stuck in a shitty game. individual job actions should have mattered a bit more and there should have been more of them
Real Time with pause with menus is always junk.
There is no pause. Please only talk about games you’ve played
It's shit. It's a bunch of noise and no real input made in order to trick people like a slot machine.
Awkward, but surprisingly fun once you get the hang of it. Unfortunately this comes much faster than the game actually lets you play around with it, which is one of the reasons I greatly preferred XIII-2.
It's a lot better than ATB but stuck in worse games. ATB is shit but at least the other parts of those games are good.
Good system.
Boy I have a big spreadsheet about this but I'll summarise
>COM has many skills proc automatically by using normal attacks under certain conditions
Launch for instance should have been made into a regular selectable command, and some other procs too like knocking an enemy down from the air, critting when they're about to leave stagger, etc
>RAV, SYN and SAB have way too many skills to quickly scroll through in the command list, so people just click autobattle or slot the same stack every turn
I think it should be similar to Legend of Legaia, since that also has an "ATB" bar that you filled with a sequence of commands, but it does so by using directional inputs. You could use the face buttons plus a bumper/trigger to quickly input commands in the same way, which I guess is not unlike FFXIV as well. Pic related, quick mock-up I made
Also to save on inputs, higher levels of the same spell can be input by holding the corresponding face button
>Medic and Sentinel had jack shit skills to choose from
>Each character has largely the same pool of commands in a given role, with some just having a smaller selection, which makes them objectively worse and not worth using rather than being a variation on the playstyle of that role
Having steelguard, mediguard and elude is a good start, but let's make different characters focus on one or two to differentiate them, and give each a corresponding counter and provoke type as well. Likewise healing by percentage vs raw value, single target vs AOE, etc
>Techniques
Fold them into the roles or just make them all items, bizarre that there even was this separate resource to begin with
>Full ATB skills
Just make them limit breaks, and give them to each character's "main" role as an ultimate move for that style of play, e.g. Hope now instead has Medic -> Renew to revive everyone, fully restore all HP, and remove all debuffs, Sazh performs Synergist -> Mighty Guard to apply a frickload of buffs to the party at once and so on
Oh and how could I forget
>You can't change party leader in battle and if they die it's game over, even if another party member could revive them
Fix that shit
Just don't die homosexual
>uses Progenitorial Wrath on party member
no problem, I'll use raise
>uses Progenitorial Wrath on party leader
lmao frick you, back to title screen
>Launch for instance should have been made into a regular selectable command, and some other procs too like knocking an enemy down from the air, critting when they're about to leave stagger, etc
those skills being based on timing and condition rather than "i want to do x now" make the battle system more dynamic.
agree with pretty much everything else but still think 13's battle system is overall pretty fun
>those skills being based on timing and condition rather than "i want to do x now" make the battle system more dynamic.
Personally I think the opposite, since they happen automatically it makes it more static and demands less of the player who is just mashing the attack button. It should be an expectation on the player to recognise that an enemy is vulnerable and exploit that weakness accordingly (i.e. using launch when they're staggered, deathblow when they're at low HP, smite when they're about to recover from stagger, and so on) just as with elemental or status vulnerabilities. Of course, it comes with the trade off that using those commands inappropriately will cause them to miss or fail or whatever (i.e. launch won't work on a non-staggered enemy just as fira won't work if the enemy is immune to fire). Boom, timing and conditions, just with less automation
I agree with most of these, but add the painful delay from paradigm shifting. It kills the pacing, there are better ways to lower the skill floor.
Also, I think a couple of these are in Lightning Returns already.
That would work if the actual skills had variety AND contextual effects, rather than only the "real" COM skills having fancy conditions.
That way, there's more than one thing to choose to do in different phases, like choosing to launch vs. knocking them into other enemies for aoe/stun.
I'd also limit buffs or only allow self-buffs so it isn't an obvious laundry list of tickboxes to fill every fight and round of stagger. Juggling buff timers is plain busywork without strategy.
I mean if I were listing every issue we'd be here all day. But yeah definitely fix that too
Also the improvements made in XIII-2 and LR indicate even the dev team realised the flaws of this game's systems
>Legend of Legaia
Based ano-
>Final troonysy XIV
Double plus unbased
>Sazh 2
ok I laughed
thoughts on XII combat??
The worst in the series, in the worst game of the series too.
i dont get why people hate 12 so much. its one of the best FF
Well, if you like it that's fine. I simply don't.
ever consider you're wrong?
huh? you cant do this. ff12 was very challenging for me. it felt awesome. like kotor. also i loved all the designs and the world.
No, I have great faith in my judgements.
>ff12 was very challenging for me
Did you play IZJS in Japanese when you were 10 or something? XII was never all that hard in the original but especially not in The Zodiac Age where you can mix any two jobs and get a busted combination in some respect. My brother has a clip saved of him melting the Rafflesia boss in like 8 seconds
TZA is a joke difficulty-wise. Although, you could never really frick yourself over in any FF12 version unless you did something stupid like totally ignoring healing.
>program the party to be perfect in all situations without any player input
>"good gameplay"
I hate autoattacks to a very high degree. I don't dislike how the equipment and options work, but every other game does individual aspects better.
XI mixes job options better(not very difficult, all told)
XIV does the moving around better since DDR red circles is at least better than extremely limited aggro management.
XIII lets you queue up actions in more intuitive chunks
XII's limit breaks are kinda unique, but kill other strategies and non-squeenix titles managed the limit break chaining better.
Sphere Grids are still better than licenses.
Like, gambits are neat, but not worth crippling everything else.
>cast buffs before battle even starts
ew
>spam limits on boss battle to instantly drop it to 1/3 health
EWWWW
If you have to fast forward an RPG either the game is shit or too boring or you’re shit and should stop grinding and get good.
decent. Fun once in a while.
I hate shitting on FFXII because i want to like it but the whole game was soulless, so it doesn't matter if the combat was good
It's a pleb detector. Anyone who hates it has shit taste and doesn't understand the system.
Good, probably my 2nd favorite combat next to X's turn based, but thats just me preferring pure turn based.
Though we never really got to see it shine and get to see it at its peak. I like it more for its potential than its execution. Firstly for being in such a meh game, but also because in the original FFXIII, there are a few flaws with the system. Specifically the animation that plays when you first switch a paradigm takes too long and the battle continues, causing you to lose stagger or take damage during it. More importantly however, the game decides that if your controlling character is KOed, its game over, even if you have plenty of Phoenix Downs, your two other characters can revived, they're at full health. Doesn't matter. The second you enter a battle and you're ganged up on by 5 enemies in the first 10 seconds before you do anything, its game over. Its a dumb feature that almost ruins the battle system.
So in XIII-2 they get rid of the whole if the leader dies its game over thing, you just switch to another party member and can revive, and they get rid of paradigm shift animations. However they instead add a gimmicky feature of being able to capture monsters and use them in battle.
So I don't think we ever saw this battle system as good as it is, live up to its potential. It wasn't in a decent game, and the tweaked, improved version of the battle system was instead used for a sequel and in hand with a gimmicky enemies as party members feature.
I'd have liked to have seen the improved XIII-2 battle system in another mainline Final Fantasy, with a full party that you can switch between etc. instead of just a two person party with monsters.
I find it funny that all of Final Fantasy's better combat systems are all in throwaway sequels.
XIII-2, Lightning Returns and X-2.
X is by no means bad, tho
Oh yeah, by better I dont mean the originals were bad, just that they're my favorite combat systems and they're all in sequels that are known not to have good narratives.
7R too
>yet another homosexual fantasy thread
Dage and hide thread.
It's great, only thing to make it better is to have more customization.
I wasn't a fan of the pokemon stuff in XIII-2 but otherwise it was great there too.
LR's was amazing.
I rather liked the system itself, but it's just not built for your throwaway fights. It shines during boss battles. I don't want to play Simon Says with every single dipshit I come across, though. Paradigm vs Paradigm made Cid fight the most interesting one in the game for me.
Very based
Worlds Collide is such a great song. The trilogy really goes hard on it's soundtrack
While the combat in LR looks great, all the costumes for Lightning outside of the default look terrible and I hate that it's mandatory to change into them