To those here who claim that they don't really care about engaging with the world and the story of a game and only want to dungeon crawl, loot and level up, why don't you play board games instead and release the DM from doing a bunch of pointless work?
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No, I don't want to.
butthole.
No u
Because I am playing D&D, a dungeon crawler about looting and leveling up.
Still has skills like performance, persuasion and deception.
Yes, for the sake of looting and leveling up
They still need you to engage with the story and the world.
You engage with the world by clearing dungeons and leveling up.
Don't need a DM for that.
>literally called the Dungeon Master
>somehow don't need them in a game about clearing dungeons
Yeah, okay.
Countless board games prove that indeed you don't.
Countless boardgames prove that you do for anything over basic b***h level of mechanics.
Do you also need an XP master and loot master?
You get those from dungeons so they fall under the Dungeon Master's jurisdiction.
Not really prevalent in B/X, the true version of D&D.
B/X doesn't really have fricking anything. It's almost freeform outside of magic and the basics of combat.
Is there anything more you need on your sheet buddy?
I wasn't criticising b/x. I've had great fun running it. It's just undeniably almost freeform outside of mechanics for dungeon crawling and exploring the wilderness. I've also had lots of fun with way crunchier systems, and I've also had lots of fun with literal forum freeform roleplay (albeit when I was fifteen).
I think everyone should try a wide array of systems if they can. It's by playing games like b/x that I realised how unnecessary skill systems are. And I never would have expected to find such a robust and deep system for social interaction in Exalted of all games, but I did, and now I disagree with all those people who assume combat needs mechanics but social interaction doesn't. The truth is that both can be made freeform or given mechanical support.
>I need a stupid amount of case specific rules to explain everything to me instead of having a DM wing it
Yeah, that's a sign you are dumb. You MIGHT be smart in regards to memorization and build making and the like, but when encountering something new with no set rules or guidelines you are clueless as to how to proceed instead of just taking a crack at it.
You know, the Adventurous aspect of stuff.
It's more that without rules and mechanics it's not even a game. You're just playing pretend. It's the furthest thing from a real TTRPG you can get because there is no G.
Also, it's a huge pain as the GM to have to make up all the rules myself. If I'm going to do that anyway, why would I even bother with that dogshit """game"""?
Well, id say Its sometimes prevalente when parlaying with Enemies, but even then, its role-playing in the strict sense, no playacting theater kid stuff...
And well, creative problem solving is roleplaying as well
He doesn't distract a cavern of orcs with burlesque show, get the keys to cave system's treasure room after a discussion of trade routes with the chief, and start a civil war by providing false witness on an assassination attempt to provide cover for getting the loot out. And coming back for me when the survivors raid those routes.
Careful anon, that sounds like a story.
it's a self perpetuating loot machine. You just have to provide purpose.
Board games have fixed scenarios or pure randomness. You still need a DM to get quality content nonstop
Also, some people enjoy designing dungeons, encounters, bosses, loot, and such
>Also, some people enjoy designing dungeons, encounters, bosses, loot, and such
Yes, because I love to see players engage, interact, kill, steal and frick around with what I make, which motivates me to make more intricate, interesting and engaging dungeons, monsters and magic items.
If you don't wanna take context into account when making and playing your character, neither will I when I make the dungeon.
Come to the table with Jack the fighter man that never talks, get ready for a set of empty, square featureless rooms with grunts standing around doing nothing for a dungeon.
If you wanna play pretend like a gay, go join the improv club.
If you wanna dungeoncrawl, go play Diablo or some board game.
The entire point of TTRPGs is the marriage of rules and context, where you can convey a character's idea through roleplay with mechanics that showcase it and how it explains that they exist in this world and are right here, right now.
If you're not gonna make use of the unique properties of the medium, why even engage with it?
It's like reading a comic but instead of a book it's a mute video of the panels one after the other.
>Yes, because I love to see players engage, interact, kill, steal and frick around with what I make, which motivates me to make more intricate, interesting and engaging dungeons, monsters and magic items.
This, but unironically.
D&D *is* a board game. Leave me alone.
>why don't you play board games instead
It's not instead, it's in addition.
Also, it's the GM's prerrogtive what game they want to run, and who they want at the table, not the players'. The GM can release themselves of pointless work at any time.
You've confused not wanting to participate in a storyshit to wanting to play a board game instead.
So let's turn that question around why don't you just sling the rulebooks out the window as they're clearly not needed for whatever it is you're doing.
You can have story beats and still follow the rules. On the other hand, if you only care about rules and not about interaction, a board game is more balanced and you can even play campaings with it.
>You can have story beats
'Story beats' have absolutely nothing to do with ttrpgs, nothing whatsoever, this because a ttrpg is a game not a story.
Is both. It started because tabletop army players wanted to play the stories of individual soldier. The fact that you can interact with NPCs, talk to them differently depending of your character, follow a path of progress for your PC all of that is part of a story because it doesn't happen in a vacum devoided of meaning.
>all of that is part of a story because it doesn't happen in a vacum devoided of meaning.
A story has a predefined beginning, middle and end. A ttrpg doesn't have this ergo a ttrpg is not a story.
Explain modules.
>Explain modules.
Guidelines for how the rules of the game can be instantiated given a premise.
>ttrpgs are the sitcoms and soap operas of games
Absolute moron.
>Guidelines for how the rules of the game can be instantiated given a premise.
Yes, with a story and characters 🙂
>All these stories that I have shat.
There is no story, a story has predefined progression from beginning to end that's not true of a game.
Where the frick are you getting this bizarre, autistic definition of story? Scholars should dissect your brain to see what went wrong.
He means that there is no story until you have played and things have happened. Which is true.
Autism is a developmental issue.
ttrpgs became hot around the same time tv syndication was on the rise.
ttrpgs are the sitcoms and soap operas of games
>predefined
Man, I feel so much pity for people who have only been able to experience roleplaying with prewritten scenarios. I'm very sorry, anon. You deserve a better gm.
You don't understand what I typed do you? You've read what I typed and derived some meaning that isn't there.
>Where the frick are you getting this bizarre, autistic definition of story?
Lol a story has a beginning, middle and end and it is set (I.E predefined) when it is written. Games aren't stories anon, going in to a game expecting a story to be told is the antithesis of gaming.
You can improvise stories. A game also has a beggining (enter dungeon), middle (dungeon crawl) and end (die/be successful) and your character even has motivations (treasure) that may change (stop evil being).
>You can improvise stories.
You can but you know what you're improvising is determined once it is improvised in that sense all stories are improvised.
>A game also has a beggining (enter dungeon), middle (dungeon crawl) and end (die/be successful) and your character even has motivations (treasure) that may change (stop evil being).
A game session has beginning (when the players convene) but the game itself doesn't have a predetermined end point.
>a game doesn't have a predetermined end point
Neither does a story? You can keep writing one until you feel like stopping.
>Neither does a story?
Yes it does, if a story doesn't end it's not a story simply rambling and pointless meandering.
>The end point is when you stop anon. Even if it is inconclusive.
No, the end point is where the game session concludes and no one bothers enough to continue.
>Calling Canterbury Tales and Kubla Khan ramblin
You do know you can have rules for combat while leaving things like social interaction to acting, Is not like one stops you from using the other.
The Canterbury Tales is a collection of twenty four stories and Kubla Khan is a poem. Y'know what they have in common? They both end.
>You do know you can have...
Y'know you can join an improvisational amateur dramatics theatrical group? I hear they also preform interpretative dance as a medium for expression, you would love it.
Anon you know while those stores were being written, there wasn't an ending right? You know how making a story works right?
>Y'know that while a story is being written a story isn't finished being written.
Lol thanks for that startling revelation Captain Common Sense.
They weren't finished, just like your campaing, they ended but they didn't had an end.
ESL?
something stopping and something having "an end" are different things, those are inconclusive works.
>something stopping and something having "an end" are different things, those are inconclusive works.
Incorporating an inconclusive ending is a well known story telling device, anon.
b/x is not a game for Improv theater homosexual, It Just doesnt have specific in-sheet rules for every single problema solving. But there is procedure for most important things, and If there isnt, a few D20 Rolls Will do the trick.
Improv theatre gays love b/x. Also, the deranged idiots in the OSR general hate the whole concept of using d20 rolls. They cluster around the concept of using whatever analogue is closest to your current situation in the b/x omnibus.
What system do you play buddy?
b/x is literally invade Dungeon get loot in all its glory
I run b/x and not the end, and the group I play in switches between systems constantly. Why?
The end point is when you stop anon. Even if it is inconclusive,
> A story has a predefined beginning, middle and end
Krug, Ugg, and Lawrence are sitting around the campfire. Ugg is telling a story based around the mammoth they’re eating. He’s making it up as he goes.
>Where is Ugg’s predefined beginning, middle, and end?
>Is Ugg telling a story, or playing a game?
>If Ugg is not telling a story, explain why is this practice is called oral storytelling
Questions worth 10 pts, aprx. 10 mins
> explain why is this practice is called
t. ugg
>Where is Ugg’s predefined beginning, middle, and end?
Beginning: Mammoth is born. Middle: Mammoth does a bunch of stuff. End: Mammoth dies to Lawrence's bangstick.
>Is Ugg telling a story, or playing a game?
Ugg does not draw a distinction between the two. To him, leisure time is leisure time and splitting the two up is wasting precious time he could be spending on hunting, gathering and leisure.
I will not use an Oxford comma.
>If Ugg is not telling a story, explain why is this practice is called oral storytelling
Basically we started farming and that ruined everything.
> Mammoth does a bunch of stuff
Like what? Where is it predefined?
> Ugg does not draw a distinction between the two.
Ugg does, because Lawrence has a copy of Blades In The Dark with him and they play every few days.
>farming
Elaborate (unless this is a joke I’m missing, in which case idc)
Because most of these people are only engaging with DnD on a performative level anwyays to seem cool and quirky.
The new target market for DnD is someone who has never picked up a fantasy novel after Harry Potter and whose only exposure to the genre is through watching other people play, or through vidja. How the hell would you expect any of them to want to engage or even know how?
pretty funny how most dungeon crawl board games usually require a dungeon master.
some of them get away with automation.
but most dungeon crawl board games are mainly just a booklet of scenarios you play through and once you go through all of them you have beaten the game.
and you've just spent 60-70 sometimes even 100 dollars on a boardgame that is pretty much like baulders gate or deus ex with a board and cards and a top down perspective.
given many of the dungeon crawl boardgames you can play through mobile or steam or other digital platforms for free.
dungeon crawl boardgames are a pain in the ass to set up and tear down too
yea. imagine putting in effort to have fun. fricking rube DM's like the op need to shutup and get back to entertaining me for free LOL
recounting every piece to make sure i dont loose one at my friends house.
what are you, poor? throw that shit in the trash and just buy a new one, dipshit
>familiarity
>better at conveying the "zero to hero" feel
>a lot more freedom with puzzles, boardgames typically don't allow such creativity
>boardgames usually take more tablespace
>can't be easily played online (if you're a nofriends grog)
>losing is fun
Do I win?
i do pity the DM that are basically tard wranglers. sometimes, they too want to be the tard that gets wrangled
I hate board games that try to be RPGs because you can't really have your own character. They're always ugly MOBA-tier diversity squad weirdos with names like "Gadget Gary" or "Weasel Winston" and shit.
Play Shadows of Brimstone instead.
if you play the hellboy board game, you can be a fish man
Play a real game if you want to create stories that don’t revolve around combat. D&d is a combat game.
They need to pretend they're a different kind of nerd and get good feels from more elaborate slowjerkoffs that require the dm to tell them how great they are.
Because nobody here plays games, next thread.
These games actually have some pretty useful tiles you can use during combat if you use miniatures and account for tactics and range and shit like that. They lock together like puzzle pieces so you can't joggle them by accident. Good for sparing yourself describing basic ordinary corridors of simple dungeons too.
>why don't you play board games instead and release the DM from doing a bunch of pointless work
I went one step further, and released my friends from meet ups
I want open ended problem solving.
>I’m not a test reader for your novel
>you aren’t a captive audience for my improv acting group
We are there to play a resource management strategy game with procedural problem solving
I can't ruin someone's roleplaying experience in a boardgame. The fun is in making roleplayers and theatergays seethe by being concerned only with kill, loot, and level mechanics. Since there's no roleplaying aspect of a board game, there's no expectation of that sort of play and nothing for me to spoil.
I want a dungeon crawl with some story, not a lot
You do know those boardgames include scenarios with stories, tight? Hell, most of those have campaign mode for ongoing stories.
RPGs allow more flexibility in fricking around than a board game. I can't trick nobles into backstabbing each other by forging their signatures on bad deals if I'm playing monopoly.
Did you miss the
>To those here who claim that they don't really care about engaging with the world and the story
part?
Not him but he equally can be engaging with the game by making a forgery check to determine how convincing his forgery is.
The fun can be derived from how well the roll goes, player caring about the world or not.
Essentially: players like fricking around and pushing over stuff set up in the world akin to a jenga tower. That doesn't necessarily mean the players care about the jenga tower's feelings or want to know all about the jenga tower's DEEP lore.
Are there any genuine RPG "boardgames" with long term leveling, minimal set up/breakdown, and no rule/component bloat?
Most are this sans the component part, most boardgames have It nowadays because buyers like having a bunch of stuff
The dungeon crawl board games are real good at this. I've had loads of fun with Gloomhaven, Descent 2e, Sword & Sorcery, and have wanted to try Massive Darkness 2 for a while. Somehow, the scenario manages to come down to the wire and a clever play, and I'm not sure how. Maybe I have good luck, but I love Nemesis and have definitely seen that game at its worst.
Counterpoint: im a forever DM and none of my players want to run more than oneshots.
I just want to play, in considering bordgames with my wife. We already havs gloomhaven but gloomhaven takes forever to set up, has a terribly dull tryhard setting and is really more of a puzzle game than a dungeon crawler. I like it but it doesnt scratch the itch right.
Right now im looking at Dungeon Saga because:
>cheap
>classic fantasy setting
>actually comes with miniatures and furniture like HQ
>fast setup
>has an expansion that allows for custom chars
Anyone got expirience with if? Or another recommendation? It needs to have custom characters, progression, short setup time and fun mechanics