Traditional Zelda is better. The formula never got stale either, Nintendo just got worse at making games. Skyward Sword is still a piece of shit though, that hasn't changed.
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>Traditional Zelda
how traditional are we talking here?
If your items don't break and there's a focus on dungeons and not dicking around empty worlds for hours.
>and not dicking around empty worlds for hours.
That's literally every 3D Zelda, even the "traditional" ones.
>Traditional Zelda is better.
True.
>The formula never got stale either
>Nintendo just got worse at making games
Wrong director got promoted. Well-documented problem.
>Skyward Sword is still a piece of shit though
True.
>tfw Aonuma wanted to be done with Zelda and retire ages ago
I honestly think BOTW was his attempt at a hatemail to Zelda, and probably didn't expect it to succeed. Now he's stuck. Anyone with a shred of a filter for quality that I know thinks at best that BOTW is mediocre, and at worst thinks its 100% ruined the franchise.
Aonuma would've been fine if all he did was Wind Waker and maybe stick around for the DS games which are obviously "his" and not half-hearted attempts at copying Miyamoto's take on Zelda, I wonder if being stuck as relevant staff for the console ones is some kind of ridiculous way to make up over how Nintendo fricked him over by not letting him finish Wind Waker, there's no way that in the Wii U version all he wanted to do was mess around with the graphics and add faster sailing either. It's just a dumb theory but as far as I'm concerned he's actually very close with miyamoto so it's not 100% out of the question.
>The formula never got stale either
fricking thank you, I absolutely despise that talking point that's blatantly parroted by non-fans and secondaries, brings my piss to a boil. did zelda need to modernize itself to be able to stand next to more recent games? sure, but not by throwing out everything that made it what it was
moron who never played zelda 1. alttp is closer to zelda 1 than botw is
OOT was just too influential and technology hadn't gotten to a place where they could have a more open world like the 2D Zeldas, but in 3D. They could totally do that now though.
Oot was as open as lttp and links awakening and as open as it needed to be, which is very little. technology has produced nothing but worse games, let us return to 64 bit.
Zelda 1 is actually pretty mid. This is not opinion it's a fact.
I want aonuma to die asap.
Oot is a little less open than ALTTP and more open than awakening
no amount of calling me somebody who im not will make you play zelda 1. its on switch online so you have no excuse
who the frick is erica
This is really funny to read now that the posts are deleted, because I KNOW you were responding to, and they haven't changed a bit.
wrong, old Zelda games are played out. I wouldn't play them anymore if you paid me
Based. Too much truth for supposed "traditionalists" to handle.
The fact that people try to say Skyward Sword is an "OoT clone" or that "BotW is a return to Zelda 1" shows that the series has been infested with gameplay-illiterate morons (including its director/producer). Official Zelda is dead, anon. ROM hacks and potential spiritual successors are your only hope anymore.
>Skyward Sword is an "OoT clone"
Wow do zoomers really? How vile.
What are the must-play romhacks? The full blown original ones, not the improvements like Zelda 1+2 Redux.
Missing Link is short and to the point. It's amazing that it is a fanmade romhack but not particularly amazing OoT-wise. Feels like an official release of a bonus disc.
Sorry, I meant for the 2D games. I've looked at OoT hacks and they all seem quite lame. They're about 15 years behind SM64 hacks.
>he doesn't know about Escape from the Facility or Indigo
I don't know and still don't know how Nintendo thinks BotW reflects anything about Zelda 1 in any way. They are both two completely different games.
It's because in BotW you can go anywhere you want at the start of the game... even though you have to complete the tutorial island first... and Zelda 1 didn't even let you go anywhere you want because you still needed to collect tools to help you navigate some of the game world. Any comparisons between Zelda 1 and BotW are shallow at best and people get away at lying about this shit because most BotW fans have never even touched the first Zelda game, so they don't know any better.
Have you played the original?
not him but hes right and yes I have
Yes, never beat it though. Got about as far as Death Mountain and stopped playing for whatever reason.
You could explore most of the world in Zelda 1 with limited equipment but it was impossible to finish without finishing the dungeons.
I remember you needed the raft just to get to some areas of the map. It's been a couple years since I last played it.
Marketing material that botw zoomers ate up with complete credulity.
Yeah it's really annoying, especially because OOT is a retread of ALTTP
>do 3 dungeons for McGuffins
>get master sword
>get access to alternate/dark world
>do 5+ more dungeons to get McGuffins
>final dungeon
>"remake" the best 2D zelda into 3D
and they made the second best 3D zelda because of that
They just played the long con of making botw the first portion with 4 dungeon mcguffins and totk the 2nd portion with 7 dungeon mcguffins.
>The formula never got stale either, Nintendo just got worse at making games.
I've been saying that for years now.
It seems more like they are fully capable of making good games but determined not to. Kind of like western devs and designing pretty female characters.
>Traditional Zelda is better.
We haven't had a traditional Zelda since LTTP.
>The formula never got stale either, Nintendo just got worse at making games.
It definitely got stale with the exception of Majora OoT to SS was basically Zelda's NSMB period.
>Skyward Sword is still a piece of shit though, that hasn't changed.
True.
>Traditional Zelda is better
no it isn't
if they released "traditional" zeldas today this board would constantly ridicule it for being simplistic baby tier nothing games and none of the moronic Black folk crying about the loss of the formula have any idea how to make it relevant in the modern days, you just want more soulsslop
If the formula never got stale, where are the copycat indie darlings? We’ve gotten a couple obvious tributes that are well regarded Ittle Dew and if you search you can find lists of other supposed “Zeldalikes” but nothing that’s brought the classic Zelda formula back to the forefront of gaming. Why don’t we have the Hollow Knight of classic Zelda yet?
Because traditional Zelda is a very difficult type of game to design for.
Bullseye. Ask yourself the same question, why are there no non-indie clones when classic Zelda was the hottest shit of all time for a few gens? Some AA and AAA devs found out in the ps1/2 era with varying levels of failure.
Isn't Soul Reaver a Zelda clone? I haven't played it.
Arguably. The best ones took parts and inspiration but had different enough game modes to not really be labelable as clones like Darksiders, BG&E and Dark Cloud.
>Dark Cloud
I still don't get why that was considered a Zelda-clone. Was it just because the main character looks like Link? Because the game played more like a 3D version of ActRaiser.
>I still don't get why that was considered a Zelda-clone
Journalists.
Aren't all of these games mentioned far more linear than Zelda? Too bad
>traditional Zelda is a very difficult type of game to design for.
Not really, it's pretty easy which is why a lot of games back in gen 6 aped the formula. It's just that nu-zelda is stale, no one wants OoT anymore.
Not only that, but as an indie you'd have to design your own characters and world as well. Good luck trying to match Link's iconic design. Nintendo can keep reusing the same characters, songs, items, and story, but you can't.
The argument could be made that all the attention that might have gone to Zelda-likes went to the Metroidvanias in the indie space
I could see that playing a factor, especially since Metroid and Zelda since share so much DNA: they’re both semi open worlds with multiple paths and item gated progression that requires you to remember item gates and come back to them later to open up more content. Designing the outline of a Metroidvania world with item locks isn’t that different from designing a Zelda world, it’s just done in a 2D side scrolling perspective instead of top down or 3D.
For a 2D action game, a side-scrolling perspective is more interesting than a top-down one since it makes horizontal (running) and vertical (jumping) movement distinct. Top-down exploration-heavy action game => Zeldalike, side-scrolling exploration-heavy action game => Metroidvania.
zelda was always more about progression than exploration and BotW+DLC have no fricking progression beyond their tutorials.
>zelda was always more about progression than exploration
No not really, from day one Zelda was about the exploration and then they went even harder on it with Zelda 2.
I dont agree with the sentiment that zelda 1 is more about progression than exploration, I think its a nice mix, but zelda 2 is more progression based than 1 is. It literally has you level up and learn spells.
Well I want a new Zelda 1/2-style game, not this bungled open air shit.
Where's my winding labyrinths?
>day one
Ah yes, November 21, 1998.
Nov 21, 1991
I just wanted to say that I'm surprised at how civil this Zelda thread has been. After having said that, I probably jinxed the whole thread.
inb4 he sales number poster arrives
if you're hungry for classic zelda pic related isn't a bad pick but it's combat focused
shippers assemble!
I went back to play OoT after I played BotW and I was so disappointed with how bland and boring it was. The game was slow, cut off the game to stuff story at you (not good story either, boring fairy tale schlock) and the puzzles and fights were laughable. Its been over a decade since I played it but god damn it didn't hold up at all. If a game like that came out today it would get dropped, which is what we saw with SS.
The problem with BotW/Totk are just that progression is not gated to temples and is all given to you at the start, which is much easier to fix than the traditional formula is. Make the overworld a bit smaller and more packed together so the ADHD Millenials don't get distracted while playing it, insert dungeons with items back in (overworld bonuses can be like sage powers/champion abilities and just be tools to help you around the world but not be strictly needed to progress) and you would have a near perfect Zelda game. I would much rather see them continue to refine this new idea than to abandon it for the old one they clearly hit a brick wall with.
I replayed oot recently and loved it you’re probably just a gay or shitposting
>Nintendo went open world
>Metroidvanias replaced 2D indie Zeldas
>anyone who would make a 3D indie Zelda is making a Soulsclone instead
3D dungeon autists are the only ones who can save Zelda but they’re probably wasting their time on romhacks that nobody will play
zelda is a dead/stale franchise or so hideously retro it's in the 2600 zone. Let it go. It's over
Replaying OoT made me realize old Zelda hadnt gotten stale, Aonuma is just a shitty designer who thinks his audience are all morons that need to be handheld through everything. Besides the heavily tutorials at the start I had forgotten how much OoT just trusted you to figure shit out yourself, and how much of the game can be done in different order or is optional. BotW was only "needed" because the formula got progressively watered down with each new game.
>OoT made me realize old Zelda hadnt gotten stale
eh, it certaily has this anon was spot on
>I went back to play OoT after I played BotW and I was so disappointed with how bland and boring it was. The game was slow, cut off the game to stuff story at you (not good story either, boring fairy tale schlock) and the puzzles and fights were laughable. Its been over a decade since I played it but god damn it didn't hold up at all. If a game like that came out today it would get dropped, which is what we saw with SS.
>Aonuma is just a shitty designer who thinks his audience are all morons that need to be handheld through everything
It's funny because Aonuma himself was/is dogshit at the older Zeldas.
He is quite literally the biggest reason why the series hemorrhaged its difficulty starting with Wind Waker.
I agree, in fact pretty immediately after navi finishes telling you (forcefully) how to open doors and such the game trusts you to figure out to jump down to break the web in the deku tree, which I think is actually a decently tough puzzle solution for a new player.
Majora's Mask stonewalled me for almost three months because it requires you to hookshot to a chest to progress in Inverted Stone Tower.
The game only tells you that's possible after the room I was stuck on.
i was 7 when Majoras Mask released and understood basically no english at all (yurop) and I finished the game np.
For me it'll always be the breakable wall in Gannon's Tower in alttp where you have to dash into a block so the recoil takes you across. I've replayed the game a million times and it always takes me a minute to remember. All for some fairies
I like both
would you prefer the next game be a classic style zelda or another botw? Assuming it's the only one we get in the next decade or so
I want them to blend more elements of the classic games into the open world style. I love the traversal mechanics in botw/totk, but I want better and more dungeons with a smaller more focused map. I also hope the next game is low tech. I don't really like how much tech shit is in the new games.
If I had to pick one or the other I would want a new classic game.
I don't really like the botw games but I would be mostly satisfied with what you're describing
I'll never understand why they decided to add gmod prop physics shit to botw instead of real/full dungeons for its sequel
Yeah, I enjoy the weird building shit in TotK, but it definitely isn't what I asked for or wanted when it was announced. I think they just doubled down when they saw how much people were experimenting with the physics in BotW, and the other aspects of the game suffered for it.
It's going to be BOTW-style/open air, Aonuma already confirmed it.
I figured it out eventually, it just took me way longer than it should've.
the whole "zelda goes souls"-format is tragic at best. i love most zelda games and I have enjoyed some parts of botw but that shit gets repetitive real fast..
I love Kass!!
Would a time loop system save open world Zelda?
>start in the middle of the map every time and can only get so far in each loop
>even if you do travel far you’ll have missed time sensitive events
>soft item gates exist in the form of difficult obstacles that can be overcome with time, skill, or knowledge but can easily be blasted through with the right item
>hookshot could be used to scale slippery surfaces that can otherwise be overcome with enough stamina upgrades/potions or waiting for a point in the loop where they’re not slippery
>hookshot could also be used to quickly cross swamps and quicksand that would normally hinder movement and require you to memorize and slowly navigate a safe path, hoverboots could do the same
>bombs could be used to blow open caves that act as shortcuts
>making it to the center of a new region let’s you teleport and spawn there at the beginning of a loop
>completing a region’s “perfect loop” breaks it out of the timeloop and brings it into play for post-loop content
Basically just Minit. I don't think putting time limits on everything is a good fix
Well shit, guess I’ll play Minit then. Thanks.
It's a fun afternoon romp but mechanically it's as stripped down as a Zelda like can get.
>have zero involvement in first four Zelda games
>be one of a dozen directors on the fifth game
>somehow gain control of the entire franchise (yakuza connections?)
>proceed to slowly run the franchise into the ground by making it too easy and handholdy
>decide to destroy the formula and replace it with open world slop after playing Skyrim and Far Cry 3
>NOBODY RIKE CRASSICU FORMULA, OPEN WURLDU BETTER!
I hate this hack so much.
I'm pretty sure botw sold more than all the prior zelda games combined lol
It did the best of the series by an insane margin, but that doesn't mean the previous games sold like shit. They were repeatedly top sellers across their platforms besides Majora's Mask. It's just Breath of the Wild hit a mass market appeal on a super hyped and super successful platform as what amounts to the goddamn pack-in game everyone got with it (but me apparently since I had it on the Wii U).
Keep your open world 3d and just give me a new 2d Zelda. Shit, hand it over to Capcom again and let Aonuma go wild wild the 3d Zeldas, I don't care anymore.
Best I can do is an oracle remake
I'll fricking take it, Ages is my favorite Zelda. It can't be this fricking hard to remake them and package them together if they can't bother making a brand new one.
I just want the cool, thematic dungeons back.
we aren't allowed to have a vast fun open world to explore and good dungeons for some reason. totk cemented this fact.
>I just want the cool, thematic dungeons back.
Uh, yeah, that's the plan going forward. One dungeon will have glowing blue lines, one will having glowing green lines, one will having glowing yellow lines, one will having glowing teal lines, one will have glowing burgundy lines, one will have glowing aubergine lines, one will have glowing periwin
I remember a dungeon in WW that wanted me to move some kind of statue thing over a gap in a floor
I tried throwing it across but it wouldn't reach , and it turned out I had to carry it over my head and jump across with it
the physics and logic of that makes no fricking sense, and it pisses me off to this day
they're fantasy games.
that doesn't mean they can defy logic completely, to the point where the least obvious and backwards solution is the intended one
no one cares homosexual
you lost
I liked Skyward Sword. it's still a solid entry with great dungeon designs. so what if the overworld is a little more linear. not like the games were ever that open to begin with. and at least it tried to utilize the wii hardware to its full potential, unlike most other wii games, even from nintendo themselves. also great soundtrack and some likeable characters, especially zelda, who actually felt approachable and had some involvement in the story for once.
I played it for the first time recently as it was one of the only two I had yet to play, and I liked the dungeons quite a bit but holy shit the last hunt for the song of the hero is bullshit. They could've made an extra dungeon with all the padding. The fight with Demise was really cool, so there's that.
I agree with pretty much every thing you praise here but the motion controls drag the game down so much for me, do they just not bother you?
not that anon but yeah they bothered me a bit at first, but I pushed through it and after the first dungeon or so it was just a minor inconvenience really. didn't bother me nearly as much as the durability in botw, i'd play zelda on a fricking dance pad over that shit.
oh I probably worded it too strongly, I have finished the game and for the majority of it the controls were just a minor but constant annoyance the prevented me from really liking the game.
Great music and visuals and some pretty top tier dungeons too though
I thought they were fine except when fighting against electric weapons.
Also the motion controls had a larger influence on the game's design (more handholdy, more liner, less variety) that made it worse.
Obviously traditional Zelda is better and no one with any taste would disagree, but the most remarkable thing about the franchise is the abnormally high level of quality it has maintained throughout so many releases. The last two games aren't even better than TP for me but they're still much better than the garbage being released today. It's just a pity to see when a long-standing franchise known for influencing other games instead becomes itself influenced by the mainstream.
somehow, wind waker which consists mostly of empty water has more rewarding and fun exploration than botw. the latter has a pretty map, I give it that but once you've found all towers and their respective nearby shrine there's very little that lures you back to said region outside of farming purposes. they could've added so many unique encounters and they settled on 120 shrines, 900 koroks, breakable weapons and enemies that eventually upgrade to bullet sponges, very lazy. gerudo desert was the most fun region and it was also the first one I did so everything from that point onward was just a letdown.
>somehow, wind waker which consists mostly of empty water has more rewarding and fun exploration than botw.
no it doesn't lmao. exploring early in WW gets you nothing, as mini islands require an item you don't have. when you do get the required items you learn that each mini island basically has one puzzle or half a puzzle; essentially you just use the item and you get something. BotW at least has shrines make you think slightly
How many BotW/TotK seethe threads do we need per day?
Open world Zelda is here to stay, all we can hope for is that they listen to fans about better dungeons.
yeah, I'm sure they'll listen after they deliberately ignored the people asking for them after BotW and refused to put them in TotK
this time for real
and remove durability and get rid of koroks
And bring back Kokiri!
I don't see it happening in a game again so I think the only hope for Saria and the Kokiri to return is if the movie ends adapting Ocarina of Time.
>the movie
>the live-action movie
No!
>you still have to eat shit for lunch, we just have to hope it’s not diarrhea next time
Why do you have fantasies of eating poop?
FOOD ANALOGY
More like the fans are seething anytime someone criticizes modern Zelda. Do I need to remind you of the "chinktroony" and "erictroony" spam?
What I want to know is how long it will take for public opinion to start to shift and for people to start missing old school Zelda?
I would say after the third open world game, but ironically after 2 games with the same exact world I think getting a new one in the next game will feel like such a breath of fresh air that it’ll postpone that feeling to after the fourth game.
It depends on how fun the game is and how the wider public receives it.
They have already confirmed TotK is the end of the "Wild Era" and the Ultrahand gimmick won't be returning.
>What I want to know is how long it will take for public opinion to start to shift and for people to start missing old school Zelda?
If ToTK and BotW dev time is any indication, we don't have to worry about another 3D game for the next twenty or thirty years, anyways.
it was growing stale by windwake, bad by twilight princess, and outright unplayable by skyward sword.
Thank god botw saved zelda
I agree
I would bet my actual left nut that the next game will be the same map yet again, but it will be flooded and feature underwater traversal as well as the flying islands
either that or they just give the player wings and let you go to space, since they seem so intent on the Terraria-ization of Zelda
What is that thing?
Looks like a species of softshell turtle.
Judging by the really fricking long neck and weird flat body, it's probably a leucistic Florida softshell turtle.
The OoT formula only worked with OoT itself and MM. Wind Waker and Twilight Princess already showed that the linear "get meme item in dungeon to open next dungeon so you can get the next meme item that is only used in the next dungeon" model was a dead-end and you have to be really delusional to attempt to argue otherwise.
>became a dead end after aonuma, king of stagnation, took over
Hmmmmmmmm.
Yep, it was definitely the games' fault. Surely the next one will magically be better. Not like the same guy is at the head, as innovation-averse as ever.
WW and TP were poorly written and designed games that missed the point. The OOT formula is just ALTTP in 3D. WW and TP missed the mark by focusing on stupid gimmicks or by being not finished and too linear
It's actually fricking depressing that A Link Between Worlds hit a nice mix of puzzles, gimmicks and item management while having character upgrades still findable in the world, and nothing's iterated on or tried to improve that since. Hell, I can't find any good Zelda-likes that weren't stuck in the Gamecube era or multi-plat at that time that really manage to nail the good mix of combat and puzzles. Something like CrossCode is obscenely tilted to moronic degrees on the puzzle side of the spectrum.
>CrossCode
God I nearly put that game down when I was thrust into a dungeon almost immediately after doing one. It felt more like a Golden Sun game in the way dungeons overstay their welcome.
Some people shit on the art but I found it endearing, I loved the soundtrack, the combat was braindead but could do well in buzzsawing mobs, but the puzzles and dungeons, man. It drags for so long, having to bounce balls off of surfaces or hit switches in sheer precision and then carefully, delicately do yet another godforsaken jumping puzzle in a game where depth perception is non-existent trial and error. It's insulting that their only solution for overindulging on that shit was to give players the means to make timers and damage be negligible so you can just cheese things without actually examining the fundamental issues.
>The formula never got stale either
8.8
TP starts at a 5 and ends somewhere around an 8, so that was actually rather generous.
OoT/MM are still my fave but SS isn't bad. In fact I automatically assume you're a fake & worthless Zelda "fan" if spout unoriginal hateful opinions about SS.
>Traditional Zelda is better
meaningless statement because of the following points
>The formula never got stale either
no two of the mainline games were ever alike (only handhelds had copied styles/designs). it never really had a formula like you think it did.
>Nintendo just got worse at making games
they really didnt. every actual metric indicates that they got better. your personal displeasure only stems from the fact that you grew up and want/expect more complexity, while giving a free pass to old nostalgia. thats it.
>Skyward Sword is still a piece of shit though, that hasn't changed.
the only true thing you've said.