Why are they so hated by the playerbase? I've been reading and DM'ing V:tM for years, and I know they're feared and hated in-universe by the rest of the clans. But wherever there is discussion about V:tM, everyone from players to DMs seem to hate them with frothing rage. So what is it? Is it the clan itself, is it the lore, maybe the Tremere players?
Now then, in all the games of V:tM I've DM'ed, I've had no problems at all with the players that played Tremere. It was usually the Malkavians that caused problems throughout the campaigns. So what's the cause for all that hate?
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Magegays but vampires
mark rein hagen was making a vampire chronicle but one dude wanted to keep playing his ars magica character
their OPness was just being rigidly organized in a time where most clan organization was almost nonexistent (because vampires betray each other even in clan)
>mark rein hagen was making a vampire chronicle but one dude wanted to keep playing his ars magica character
is this true? hahaahahaha
where did you heard this? I want to believe...
its a guess because they also made ars magica and it totally fits 80s gamers to do such a thing
MUH POWERGAMING MUH MUNCHKINS
this is why
Are they even that OP? It takes a while to pop off with Thaumaturgy and by the time you do, the other coterie members should also be respectably strong.
They're not really in V5/20, tuning down Thaumaturgy was one of the goals of the more modern editions. They're still highly flexible given their extremely broad power pool and they still attract power gamers with their reputation.
Thay're flexible ONLY v20
in v5 Thaumathurgy sucks dick
Never seen hate for them because the real munchkins did it with backgrounds
>Why are they so hated by the playerbase?
I don't think PLAYERS hate them at all. They're hated in-universe for some pretty justified reasons.
If players hate them I'd guess it's for their thaumaturgy working fundamentally different than most disciplines, but then why doesn't that extend to the giovanni.
>MUH POWERGAMING MUH MUNCHKINS
Well their clan bane is exactly the kind of thing that would counter a powegamer. "Okay buddy you're super powerful, but you have a blood bond to your clan and your higher up has some orders for you". Conceptually I guess that's the same reason AD&D Paladins had so many restrictions.
There are no 'good guys' in vampire.
Well yeah, vampire is a political game, and having multiple possibly conflicting alliances is part of that. The difference with the Giovanni is they don't pretend to be part of a sect, the way the Tremere use the Camarilla.
These ~~*tremere*~~ you speak of, they wouldn't happen to be a large part of the Camarilla leadership, would you?
>There are no 'good guys' in vampire.
*Nasheed intensifies*
>there are no 'good guys' in vampire
They're called the inquisition
Finally, someone said it!
>MUH POWERGAMING
But Blood Sorcery is shit?
They killed the Good Guy Clan so why shouldn't they be hated?
That is in-universe though.
I'm still wondering that too.
A reputation for attracting power-gaming optimisers who try to exploit the fact that the clan has access to roughly five to ten times as many superpowers as any other clan simply because "they're wizards."
In- universe, they're like "pretend" vampires, since they used to be human mates wanting to learn the secrets of immortality and shit.
Out of universe? I don't understand why, something something grognard
On my table the dislike of the Tremere is mostly rooted in the fact, that like the Giovanni, its a highly organized Clan, more so than even the Ventrue. So any Tremere on the table necessarily brings his Clan's baggage with them for good or ill. Its not like a Brujah or Gangrel that exists in a vaccuum. If there is a Tremere on the table the GM has to do the extra work of taking in to account the greater Clan's stance on the issue.
>Plays a game focused on clan politics, sects and their traditions and codes
>NOOOOOOOOOO WHY ARE YOU OBEYING YOUR ELDERS, YOUR PC SHOULD BE A BLANK SLATE SO I CAN RAILROAD YOUR ASS AND CLAN CHOICE ONLY MATTERS FOR THE DISCIPLINES AHHHHHHH SAVE ME CAINE
Despite what the Tremere and Giovanni would have you believe, they have antitribu out there.
because everyone hates the Tremere
I ask you, sodales of the Order, is there any proof that the Sundering was successful? Sure, Tremere died broken and alone. But why are we not allowed to learn about it. Is it because of some great treachery by the Order like the Tremere likes to imply? Nay. The truth is clear. It was not Pralix's body Guorna the Fetid tried to take control of - but the least talented of the three Tremere himself. Since then, she bid her time. Collecting more necromancers. And when every other Founder had passed away, she attempted to strike. Failed once more. But the Order failed as well - we allowed House Tremere to survive. If the father is corrupted, how can one suspect the children won’t be the same?
So sodales don’t ask me why I distrust the wolfs. Instead ask yourself why you trust them? Since they painted other Houses as greater enemies? Laughable. Since Transylvania is so successful? Deluded. Since they say to server the Order? Folly. Remember their words – despite them being too cowardly to say it anymore – The Will conquers all. Our will must be stronger than theirs, for we can never out do their ambition.
I once managed to squeeze one of those Transylvanian spectral owl eggs out of house Trememe by saving my dumbass covenant-brother from church suspicion. We named the bird Hamilcar.
I think V:tM Revised's Brujah stereotype about them sums it up nicely.
>"It's like someone took a bunch of D&D nerds and told them their spells were real."
Say the degenerate thugs that for all their talk still are the Ventrue's b***hes.
OOC? Because it's magic with shitloads of rules and people don't want consequences in their game about consequences.
Put simply they’re successful they use logic and reason to improve themselves, and their abilities. By all metrics they should be on top of the vampire community, ruling basically unopposed, with their superior power knowledge and capabilities as they are the only clan working in improving themselves and their power.
calm the frick down Etrius
Same reason the technocracy is so dumb yet so powerful. Using logic and reason will get results far beyond random chance and happenstance. The technocracy should have been a new order less the 200 years old formed of minor mages, that figured out things like exciting molecules is more effective than just creating fire directly. An order formed around utilizing new discoveries in the laws of physics. Allowing them to achieve greater works of magic then was previously possible for such minor talents.
isn't that just one of the Factions from Mage: the Awakening?
...yes. On an unrelated note, the taste of semen and anal bleeding you're experiencing is due to light from Venus refracting from local swamp gas.
The one with an so many superweapons they make the Sith obsession with them look like a few kids playing in the sand box
The Technorcacy has a actually fleet of Deathstars as one of their weaker bits of random crap.The other factions don't even have the man power to run one of those, let alone make one.
Success breeds jealousy and the Tremere had been roflstomping everyone until the Vienna chantry blew up
homie please, the Tremere's luck ended the moment the Assamites entered the Camarilla
They are still winning hard, nobody else is working to actually improve their powers and abilities, Hell the made the Gargoyles, vampires that are unaffected by the sun.
Success breeds envy.
The Tremere are the only ones that truly chose their fate and took charge of their destiny. Truly, they are the only overmen in vampire society, and it makes all the subhumans froth at the mouth with slave morality.
Because no one ever plays them correctly and SOMEHOW always has them be free of the Pyramid. Tremere should be one of the most difficult clans to play as intended. Also, BIG TITTY GOTH GF.
>embraced into tremere
>some old has-been studying shit for 200 years becomes your mentor
>starts yammering about hermetic principle for a month
>you just want to cast fireballs
they were mages that became vampires
not hated, just the impression exists online
I sort of understand the hate as from my experience Trem was the logical end point of character building in VClassic or V20 for most people I played with or gm'd for as:
Usually Brujah or Ventrue was the first taste for new players.
Then they'd want something with a bit more flavour but a familiar feel so Gangrel or Toreador.
After that they'd want to get wacky: so you'd see fish-Malk or spoopy-Nosferatu.
Finally once they had a grasp of everything they'd shit the place up with Tremere. Thuamaturgy was a powerful discipline in Classic and its still pretty good in V20. Once you add all the paths from the splat books then Thamaturgy becomes something like 100+ mini-disciplines that either equals or exceeds the core disciplines. It doesn't take long to find a path that provides you with the best things needed for your game.
By the Gehena End Game - there was little even a mid-range Trem couldn't do in Classic and even in V20 I still think they are one of the most "mechanically-powerful" characters you can have if your games aren't as narrative. Add a creative player and its a real battle coming up with challenges for the Coterie that aren't convoluted bullshit. In higher-dot games one of the paths for example basically let you frick around with peoples stats or perform any talent so Trem were basically "do all's" and it did feed into the whole caster-supremacy argument.
In terms of weaknesses you had to handle it narratively and in-game more than most. Blood Bond was basically a non-entity for PC's in Classic as they were usually young vampires anyways so were taking orders from their elders regardless of being blood-bound to do so.
V20 gave it a bit more edge because you can force-bond PC's easier but it's hardly a major drawback as by Blood Bond 3 the player basically loses most control of their character anyway. Beyond enforcing the whole pyramid-political aspects of the Clan most Trem players aren't kept in check without concerted effort.
Turns out actually working on improving your power and skill while your fellow vampires, are stuck doing the same old same old. Mean you get stronger while they stay in place. Really it not that Bloodmagic is powerful, its that all the other clans cant even manage the bare minimum of work to be better.
>In terms of weaknesses you had to handle it narratively and in-game more than most
Well, the problem with a Tremere weakness is that in 99% cases it's a nothingburger. Ventrue, Brujah and Toreador weaknesses are a mechanical nightmare to deal with, Nosferatu, Malk, Gangrel and Lasombra are the walking Masquerade violation,while Tremere... just do what their told. And then in V20 at least you can pick the Embraced Without a Cup trait that nullifies the weakness *completely*.
So, now you have an extremaly versatile Vampire that can pull a literal nuclear warhead out of their ass with no weakneses. Have fun reining that player in.
Because Thaumaturgy can be fricky from the powergaming perspective, so they are a pain in the ass for a ST/DM.
But I've never actually met any *player* who hated the Tremere. If anything they are the most picked clan by a mile.
No fricking way, most players pick either Ventrue o Gangrel, and that's a fact.
>If anything they are the most picked clan by a mile.
True. Gangrel are close second, and Toreador the third. Ventrue is prolly the least picked clan. Not because they suck but eh, you can do classy director/oldschool overlord with Tremere, socialite with Toreador or (don't laugh) Brujah and have something on the side for combat and fun going.
And in Sabbat you have Lasombra, who are like Ventrue, but with nifty shadow powers and a better pitch, Tzimsce with their fleshcraft and AYYOOO WEWUZ DARKULA, and Tremere without a crusty meth regent holding their leash tight.
I like Tremere, lol. Shame they were shat on constantly by trannies and muslimgays for like three editions straight.
Get dabbed on Nerd, go back worshipping your big worm
Your mom likes worshipping my big worm
my mom is dead by circa 500 years, so unless you got some shady deals with the giovanni (in which case, what dollar store tremere are you?) you'd be humping a patch of grass in southern italy
Hey man, no need to disrespect the Shai-Hulud
>masquerade players: dramatic and self-important
>mage players: domineering and self-worshipping
>meet them together in with a shitty ritual system: all those other traits and an inferiority complex