Was he right for wanting to create outer heaven
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Was he right for wanting to create outer heaven
Was he right for wanting to create outer heaven
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His ideology makes no sense. Soldiers as an occupation don't exist for their own sake. If they ever become obsolete, so be it. I refuse to believe people like Big Boss and Grey Fox have zero skills that could be applied to civilian life.
exactly, it was just an excuse to make more games, at the end of MGS4 they make pretty clear that Solid Snake should live free how he wants and stop being a tool
It's less that they have no skills and more that they're just mentally incapable of acclimating to civilian life. Even Solid Snake, the least autistic of them all, basically lived in a cabin with a bunch of dogs. Big Boss just isn't capable of thriving outside the battlefield, and the people he picked up were in similar situations. They're all outcasts. A life outside the battlefield isn't worth living for him.
This. But for big boss it was more about living up to his title. While peace Walker kind of fricks a lot of shit up, one aspect I do like is big boss doing it for himself.
Peace Walker didnt really frick it up, so much as accelerate his worldview. He tried being a legitimate messiah and then he realised that the CIA are never gonna let him forget hes a weapon so he went nuclear. There was absolutely zero chance of him being able to quietly set up a normal, stable PMC as a haven for outcasts- and after PW he just said "frick you then"
He didn't even really go nuclear. It was mainly Kaz that pushed him to do it and in retrospect Kaz was just gaslighting him into it thanks to Zero.
he was pushed in all sorts of ways but his voice as leader was always law and Outer Heaven didnt happen until he mumbled "frick it, fine" over half a cigar depressed one night in Nicaragua or some shit
Like I said, it was mainly Zero/Kaz pushing him into it with the moronic Hot Coldman shit.
She could talk to people just fine. She wouldn't be able to inspire like 6 different people who went on to change world history otherwise. It's just like that Anon said she liked to intentionally be cryptic, although admittedly part of that was because of her job.
Nah. Big Boss was always a massive autist soldier. Look at his interactions with the other characters in MGS3. Sure he seems goofy and naive, but he also has nothing outside of being a soldier. He doesn't read books or watch movies, he doesn't really listen to music, he doesn't seem to care about sports or just anything else. He has no real hobbies, nothing he does in his spare time. He's mildly interested in most of the things Paramedic talks about, but it's immediately apparent that he just doesn't do anything of his own volition. He has vices, of course. He likes good food, he likes cigars. But his conversations heavily paint the picture that this is a man who spends nearly all of his time either in military bases or on the battlefield.
>It's less that they have no skills and more that they're just mentally incapable of acclimating to civilian life
this is exactly what's happening to the taliban. they're more comfortable sitting through a drone bombing than sitting in traffic. they'd rather get shot at by american soldiers than talk to an american sales rep on a zoom call
People with other skills don't sign up to be career soldiers they get out early
Reminder that the idea was born from what happened to him and the boss. Outer Heaven was supposed to be a haven for those who eat, sleep, and breathe the battlefield without being subject to the machinations of others. The cycle of violence they inevitably partake in ensure that this type of person will always exist.
Can you imagine Grey Fox or Big Boss working in a factory making mass produced garbage or serving you at the checkout of some store?
I imagine they'd just build a cabin in the woods, hunt and forage for food, write a manifesto, and start sending a lot of packages in the mail.
>hmmm...cheerios
>THATS RIGHT SNAKE. CHEERIOS. WHOLE GRAIN TO BOOT.
>whole grain?
>PRODUCED BY GENERAL MILLS, ITS BECOME A STAPLE PRODUCT OF THE AMERICAN BREAKFAST.
>So....do you eat it right out of the box?
>OH SNAKE, OF COURSE NOT! YOU POUR IT. INTO A BOWL AND THEN ADD MILK
>How strange...
>YOU SHOULD TRY IT SOMETIME. I ADD SUGAR TO MINE.
>hnnn....no thanks
FEED ME SNAKE
>Someone must have had a lot of faith in your skill. Huh, carrier boy?
I personally chock up most of the incoherence to de facto censorship.
Kojima may seem like a guy with basic left-ish political beliefs, but that's only what we see through the Konami filter. Also they needed his games to sell in the West.
I think the idealized Peace Walker would be 100% Americans Are The Bad Guys, and by the end Big Boss would basically be doing a bunch of 9-11s.
Kojima isn't a full blown communist he probably just sympathizes for some left wing nations/groups that's it.
im breddy sure he's just a hipster
> Kojima may seem like a guy with basic left-ish political beliefs, but that's only what we see through the Konami filter. Also they needed his games to sell in the West.
Are you moronic, none of the MGS games were released post 2016, where moral gayging over politics become mainstream.
Also Konami is the last one to care about a public image, Geoff publicly shamed Konami in the game awards but they gave 0 fricks, they gave no excuses, and just continue on to go full pachinko.
They may be a shitty AAA game company, but the balls to release Metal Gear survive and MGS3 pachinko, admist the shit storm of Kojima leaving Konami, is pretty badass tbh.
>things only come into existence when my dumbass becomes aware of them
solipsism aside, it's got nothing to do with moralgayging to say that a pro-terrorism message might get watered down in a product meant for the US and Japanese markets.
dont worry about him, hes terminally online and has no idea what this symbol means or when it was used
>is pretty badass tbh.
Do zoomers even know what badass means?
Doesnt know what mercenaries are. Doesnt know what French Legion is.
Doesnt know tjose operate in real life
The less you know
The logistics, politics, strategy and general composition of Outer Heaven makes no sense. Even the trip time from the offshore FoB to Afghanistan is impossible. It's a fictional military-themed anime plot, don't take it seriously.
kojimbo had good run with the first 3 MGS, actually he wanted to end it there, but then he was requested to make more games by fans and ended up fricking up the story and making Solid Snake old so he would die, also killing other memorable characters.
he said that after every game he made, "im tired of metal gear and i wanna make something else" then he comes back to mg cos konami paid him
Of course not. That's literally the point of most of the series, that he learned and based his life around the opposite of what the boss wanted, which was an end for a need for soldiers to ever exist at all.
Metal Gear Prigozhin when?
I AM A GUN
honestly he would be a trendsetter. pmcs being used instead of "real troops" has only expanded in recent decades.
[CURRENT EVENTS] has me mildly surprised
its best to not pay strict attention to the media circus.
yeah but when it reflects my japenese bimbeogames i cant help but be slightly enamoured. Ruse Cruise, True Patriot etc.
Most subtle thread
Nice
WORDS THAT KILL
Why did he do it?
The Boss' WIll
I want to beat up an american muttgay I know from LULZ that is from the military (and maybe some /k/gays)
I have no knowledge of martial arts which is the closest to CQC
just be bigger and lift him up. Big Boss would lose a fight to Vulcan Raven
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combatives it probably has some jujitsu in there too.
Go for the element of suprise/psychological shock, bite him
CQC is kyokushin karate techniques + Judo + Aikido
If you want a more streamlined and guaranteed effective version, do Muay Thai and Judo
>Big Boss: "I'm going to make a world where soldiers are always needed"
>Patriots: *makes the war economy*
>Big Boss: "uhh no not like that, actually you know what I think war bad"
what is his problem
It took him like 50 years for him to realize that the boss wanted a world without soldiers at all, not one where soldiers were ptotected.
to be fair he was operating under the idea that World War 2 and The Cold War incidents was specifically what she meant and not the overall arching theme of conflict between nations.
if geopolitical tensions calmed down after the Cold War then Big Boss wouldnt have continued to be autistic about it but that was never going to happen. like someone telling you they hope one day people stop using drugs so you make it your lifes mission to end Big Pharma when thats not what they were talking about
The Patriots being able to control individual soldiers and their weapons isn't something he could have imagined in the 70s and 80s. It was probably horrifying when he learned that shit after waking up.
Doesn't really matter. It was always a pipe dream anyway. There was a bit of monologue in MGSV by Kaz that was tinged with irony, where Kaz talked about how soldiers who work for PMCs fight and die for countries they don't belong to, causes they don't believe in, and acts as though it's not exactly what he had in mind when they started this whole private military business. But isn't that exactly what Diamond Dogs does? At the end of the day, PMCs are just mercenaries. That's all they ever were. Ocelot even acts as though there's some sort of difference between PMCs and mercenaries, but what fricking differences is there? You're a private company of soldiers who fight for the highest bidder.
The war economy created by the Patriots is just the natural conclusion of what Big Boss was trying to achieve. Private military companies fighting proxy wars for higher powers that don't care about them. Somehow, Big Boss and Kaz failed to realize that this is where their dream was taking them, even though it's the most logical fricking conclusion in the world.
The worst fricking irony of all is that despite Solid Snake being a tool for the Patriots who was manipulated every step of the way, he did genuinely attempt to fight for what he believed in. It's why he and Otacon formed Philantropy. Snake believed in Otacon's goal of erasing Metal Gears from the world. He fought for that purpose. Even in MGS4, where he was still being manipulated by not just the Patriots and Ocelot, Snake still fought in order to give people like Raiden and Sunny a future. He didn't want them to be forced to deal with the bullshit left behind by his and the previous generations. That's why he worked so hard despite his condition. He was already dying, so who better to throw their life away so that others might have just a semblance of a chance at living in a better world than the world he was part of?
Big Boss's other goal was to destroy the Patriots. Wanting to destroy Metal Gears is all well and good but there was bigger fish to fry that Snake and Otacon had no clue about for the longest time. Metal Gears are a pretty small problem compared to AI overlords who will control them.
Big Boss was just as bad as the Patriots. In fact, the entire fricking reason things got as bad as they did was in many cases due to the ever-escalating conflict between Big Boss and Cipher/the Patriots. It's their fault things got to this point. I mean for frick's sake, Big Boss was one of the founding members of the Patriots.
That's why Big Boss had to do what he did at the end of MGSV. That wasn't just Big Boss making peace with his longtime nemesis and friend. That was him making amends for his part in allowing things to reach this point at all. He bears just as much of the blame as Zero. Remember, in this universe, Big Boss is the one who started the modern PMC business. So the roots of the War Economy can be traced back to him. All the Patriots system did was copy his idea.
He felt like he needed an army backing him and nukes to even stand a chance of opposing such a power with the US military under its thrall. They sent his own clone to kill him twice that was their secret weapon he couldn't stop.
...I mean he's the one who sent Solid Snake to begin with, remember? And Snake was supposed to fail. You can't blame the Patriots for that.
He was probably hoping he could capture Snake and turn him to his side after explaining about the Patriots and everything but it just didn't work out cause Snake was too good.
Nah, I think Snake was just supposed to die at some point. Dude was a rookie. The fact that Snake actually snuck all the way to the core of Outer Heaven and destroyed Metal Gear must have been completely out of left field for him. It's part of why he's considered such a miracle worker. What Snake did on that mission was completely extraordinary.
To compare to Big Boss, when Naked Snake participated in Operation Snake Eater, he was already an experienced soldier who helped create an entirely new revolutionary form of military martial arts (CQC). Remember, he co-developed that with the Boss, so as much of a doofus as he was, he already had plenty of achievements under his belt when he did that mission. Prior to then, he fought in the Korean War and the Vietnam war. Dude was a seasoned veteran. In contrast, Solid Snake participated in like one mission in the Gulf War as a Green Beret before being assigned to FOXHOUND. So the fact that this kid was able actually do what he did caught pretty much everyone off guard.
I doubt the Patriots had much expectations from him either. He's the inferior clone. He's not only inferior to Liquid, but Big Boss and Solidus as well. So the fact that he's the one who defeated Venom, Big Boss and Liquid would have caught anyone off-guard. Why do you think he was injected with FOXDIE in the first place? All Snake really had to do was infiltrate Shadow Moses and make contact with anyone. That would cause FOXDIE to spread and eventually reach all the key players. The Patriots never actually expected Snake to defeat Liquid, because statistically Liquid was his superior. So the fact that he actually fricking survived once again caught everyone off-guard.
That's the interesting thing about Snake. Sure, he's always being manipulated, but his manipulators have an overwhelming tendency to underestimate him as well.
Incidentally, this is why Liquid Ocelot was the only one who managed to predict and outwit Snake at every single turn. It's because he's the only one who never underestimated Snake. Every single one of Ocelot's machinations hinged on Snake constantly succeeding at everything he did. This is why things always ended up working out exactly as he planned; he always bet on Snake.
trying to ram with a battleship was kind of overkill though
Snake didn't beat liquid. Fox die killed him
Sure, Snake was still supposed to die. The fact that Snake managed to outskill Liquid and throw him off of REX should have been unimaginable. The fact that Snake was able to hold Liquid off in the car chase long enough for them to reach outside was highly improbable. Sure, Liquid's insane resilience meant that he just kept getting up no matter what Snake threw at him, but any betting man would have put money on Liquid beating Snake to death on top of REX.
>the reason why Snake was the least moronic character in MGS is because he got botched in the cloning process so he wouldn't be as BiBo as possible despite looking exactly like him.
At this point, him getting shafted from the dominant genes might as well have saved him from the mental moronation everyone else in the series suffers from.
Big Boss gave him the codename Snake, his codename. He wouldn't just give that to anyone, certainly not a guy he wanted dead. Rookie or not Big Boss knew he was good.
He was good, but not good enough to make it to the end. Everyone in Outer Heaven was supposed to be a top-class soldier. Besides, the top codename in FOXHOUND wasn't Snake, it was Fox.
Again, Snake was a rookie. Even if he was a clone of him, that just means that Big Boss wouldn't expect more out of Snake than he would have from himself when he was Snake's age with Snake's level of experience and training. So one could argue the Snake had already surpassed Big Boss by that point.
posts like this are so woefully unaware of the human condition that reading it, in some ways, feels more painful than having a knife pulled along your skin
how so
the world was on the brink of societal collapse not once, not twice, but multiple times over the course of the series due to big boss's (and zero's (and the boss's)) lack of foresight and brevity
"yeah sorry that was a bad idea my bad bro" isn't going to cut it
because the "War Economy" is different to Big Boss wanting a place for the people of those wars and accepting that conflict doesnt end. What the Patriots were doing was creating artifical conflict for almost literally no reason.
some people value the act of cleaning wreckage from homes and renovation and become disaster relief workers but crashing cars into houses on purpose and then giving them paint isnt the same thing
>for literally no reason
it's called the war "economy" for a reason, people profitted off of it. see Metal Gear Rising, the AIs aren't even propagating the practice anymore, just regular ass boring people. and ironically enough this still gives people like Raiden and all the other PMCs a place to belong, in the battlefield, just like how Big Boss wanted.
may have ignored that profit is actually a valid reason but i was talking about war as a means to an end, political, idealogical etc. To protect or defend, to enact change not just "Sell AK get monie lololol" like the AIs were proliferating. Big Boss exploited the people chasing grand ideals who were left behind but the AIs just said huehuehue and used them specifically as tools
Why do we pretend to hate 4
Too many cutscenes?
the absolute butchery of pre-established lore and characters for the sake of memberberries (Naomi's stupid plan, Vamp being there at all, retconning the entire series to be about The Boss, the deus ex machina resolution via Sunny, etc.) and the writing is awful
gameplay-wise they only put the new mechanics (helping out militias, multiple branching paths, emotional manipulation) to good use in the first 2 acts
mgs is anime. There's no logic at all.
4 is moronic, most mgs games are, but 4 is unforgivably so
Of course.
Society demands young men become killers, but then when they're not needed anymore, society throws them away like dirty rags. BB just wanted to give soldiers a place they would be valued and cared for. A place they could call home.
The Boss never wanted any of this to happen. Initially, she was just trying to prevent nuclear armageddon. It was the Cold War and tensions between the U.S. and Soviet Union were at a breaking point. The entire purpose behind the first stage was for the U.S. to get their hands on the Philosopher's Legacy and basically checkmate the Russians. The reason Big Boss brought the Davy Crockett missiles was as a peace offering. It was a calculated risk; after all, their range was way too short to be reliably used in an assault against the U.S. so they figured the risk in handing those weapons to the Soviets to let the Boss get close to them wasn't going to threaten them in the long run. What caught everyone completely off guard was that absolutely fricking no one, not the U.S., not the Boss, not even Ocelot, NONE of them realized just have completely bat-fricking-insane Volgin was. None of them could have expected that he'd actually fricking shoot one of those missiles within Soviet territory at a Soviet research site. That one act of complete madness and depravity thoroughly fricked everyone over and forced the Boss to change plans completely whilst also kicking off the chain of events that would lead to Operation Snake Eater.
Everything that went wrong with the Boss and Naked Snake can be traced back to that one single act of lunacy by Volgin.
Honestly, the worst fricking thing the Boss really did was constantly speaking in vague, cryptic metaphors when literally everyone around her was a bunch of autistic morons who could only take things completely literally. This is why everyone misinterpreted her and fricked things up so much. If the Boss had just come out and said as clearly as she could, as if she were talking to a bunch of toddlers, that A) "War is bad", B) "Nukes are also bad" and C) "Trying to take over the world is really bad", none of this shit would have happened. But no, she had to speak in riddles all the time and now the world is run be A.I.s
To be fair she was way more educated than like everyone around her by miles and raised by the world elite. She probably forgot how to talk to peasants normally.
she coulda also told naked snake to not kill her and they defect together, didnt he already know she was a double agent?
that has nothing to do with the fact that The Boss's deliberately being cryptic when it comes to her choice of words. granted she's not allowed to be blunt provided the context of her final mission but the problem is that people who knew her beforehand (Snake, Zero, Strangelove) all had different interpretations of her character, which implies her being mysterious is not due to the confidentiality of Operation Snake Eater. she's just obtuse all the time, and that caused some massive headache for the world later on.
In all fairness, that's just a personality flaw. She didn't intend for things to snowball so hard. She's just kind of a homosexual hipster by nature.
shes a career soldier whose brain was fried by being a tool, Post Partum Depression, PTSD, Space Exploration and Disowned by her country on purpose. Shes not going to be the type of political speaker to calmly and bluntly state her motivations and wishes for the future, despite how melodramatic what she chose was. this is you retroactively trying to fix the issues caused by her ideals as though it was supposed to be avoided
fair enough, as
pointed out she probably never thought things would end up this way. my personal issue with her will is that Kojimbo thought it's a good idea to retroactively make everything about the series up to that point to be about this will, or rather the misinterpretations of it. it just feels kind of tacked on with not enough build up going from 3 to 4.
>The series revolving around the first instance of the main antagonist having his worldview questioned was tacked on.
i think youre trying to separate The Boss as a character from the story for no reason.
I'm moving goalposts here and by now I may come off as an incoherent babling moron, but that plot point has gotten better since the introduction of the idea in MGS4, PW and V did a very good job at fleshing it out. But at the time it just felt like it came out of nowhere, even replaying through 4 it still kinda feels like that's the case.
it absolutely did, and its the privilege of hindsight- as is the case with making up more shit after the fact but thats just the way it goes. gotta discuss the media as its presented or else it does just look like a frickin cop-out that you can make a prequel and then sequels that run off prequel logic and events
>Shes not going to be the type of political speaker to calmly and bluntly state her motivations and wishes for the future
It's ironic because she spoke exactly like a politician - saying a lot but ultimately nothing of value that gets misinterpreted by literally everyone.
GIFT OF THE SILVER TONGUE
more like a woman holding a gun in a parking lot trying to explain her entire life in the 5 minutes shes got before Mall security engage her. the ending wasnt supposed to be an intellectual discussion between two peers in a War Room it was a scene about a tired "war criminal" before their end like in Falling Down or Apocalypse Now.
I bet the sorrow was happy when he died because she probably gave him some vague ass speech on the bridge too while he was begging her to reconsider so they could find their son.
If you think about it, Liquid is just a gross exaggeration of all of Big Boss's worst personality flaws. Extreme narrowmindedness and tunnel vision, a complete inability to comprehend that civilians exist at all, and a high degree of narcissism. Some people might not consider Big Boss a narcissist, but the fact that at the end of Peace Walker he was able to twist the AI Boss's decision to prevent the nuke launch as a personal betrayal does reek a bit of textbook narcissism.
the fact that Kojima wrote a science fiction game that ascribed "spiritual essences" to genetics is wild. a war deity split in two and their component characters magically being ingrained with separate and clashing qualities.
Gods are naturally narcissistic. Big Boss didnt really give a shit about worldly concerns until his own patron deity was brought infront of him and he started crying over her again like some kind of illusion.
Kojima is a fartsniffer to be sure but more often than never while playing the games you can managed to link together a bunch of bullshit and say "wait, was it SUPPOSED to sound like this? what the frick." because it doesnt scream anything but "anime" when you first experience it
I mean isn't Big Boss kind of an artificial deity created by the Patriots? They were literally trying to turn him into a cult icon. Somehow, Liquid got all of Big Boss's worst qualities while Solid got all of his best. This is why both Ocelot and Big Mama can't help but see Big Boss in him. They see the elements of Big Boss that attracted them to him.
Indeed, while Snake never created a huge PMC/military nation, he still absolutely inherited Big Boss's charisma. You can see this in how many people end up developing genuine admiration and loyalty towards him through their interactions. Even Naomi, who started out hating him, ended up feeling genuine affection and empathy towards him. They can't help it. He's not just a good man but a good man with high-tier charisma. The difference between him and Big Boss is that Snake never weaponized that charisma to form a private military.
The way their charisma affects the lives of those around them are also total opposites. Big Boss's charisma is part of what formed the Patriots, but despite their initial good intentions, all the members eventually became twisted. In contrast, Solid Snake's companions all ended up way better off, often becoming the best versions of themselves.
The deity thing was more of a late thing that happened like something got triggered in the Patriots program and they started releasing all his exploits and turned him into an icon. Some part of Zero in there maybe.
Nah, Zero kinda wanted to turn him into a figurehead as well. It's part of the reason why they started to clash. The clones were just the final straw.
I don't understand why people act like PMC and mercenaries have zero ties to any governments. All those African mercenaries in the 60s weren't going to work for the Soviet Union and Wagner isn't just going to accept contacts from the West.
its the same as immigrant workers or any other national/international private work. theyre not officially linked but its still a dick move when they offer decades of service and when their host doesnt like them anymore they can say "you never belonged to us, we dont have any responsibility for what happens to you" which is the main issue.
its less a case of people acting like theyre not tied but the effects of them not being tied and treated as such despite being used as though they are.
Why he hell did a PMC need a nuclear weapons program. Miller was insane for even suggesting keeping the nuke.
Because he's a moron, trying to maintain a uniformed standing army in a single concentrated place instead of a widespread and deeply embedded global guerrilla force that's impossible to nuke without massive collateral damage.
Do people not realize Big Boss being in the wrong and going back on his initial beliefs is the point
Big Boss isnt wrong in the games you play as him is the point. in the games you do not play as him, its like the Divine Right is removed from him because he does infact choose the wrong path. no idea where Raiden fits into this wank, maybe "Passing The Torch" bullshit but we only play as him twice so that was sort of a scuffed idea all in all.
MGR2 is never happening so Sci-Fi Gods of War is a dead concept
Big Boss is objectively wrong in Peace Walker, he tells you directly at the end of the game.
I mean shit he straight up misinterprets his own memories of the boss so he can go ahead with what he believes is right.
I think the point is that Big Boss was always going to end up in the wrong situation because of his personal failures and painful experiences, the things he helped create were incredibly harmful for the world but to him it was justified because it helped him and other likeminded individuals who were suffering from the same problems have someplace they felt they belonged in, even if they were setting the world on fire.
i was thinking of wrong versus right in opposition to his enemies not in the grand scheme but yeah, intentional large scale militarisation is fricked no matter how you spin it. he couldve been an old man billionaire NGO in Angola with all the "MGP" he secured from legitimate means like rescue, R&D, animal conservation, legitimate private security and aid work but trauma meant he had to become Ares
no you dumb moron major zero had the right idea of controlling the world before crispy gay killed him.
Zero was already old as hell at the time he was gonna lose his minc eventually either way, Skullface just accelerated the decline.
even before he kicked the bucket he had little to no faith on the Patriots program, fearing that his will would get distorted and twisted somewhere along the line. with MGSV, the feud between Zero and Big Boss culminated in both of them regretting their stance by the end of MGS4 with the Patriots's War Economy being an amalgamation of both Zero's vision and Big Boss's Outer Heaven and by extension The Boss's will.
>life imitates art
Comrades...are you okay in Voronezh?
just took this screenshot in mgsv reshade, graphics look nextgen
For me, it's Running Man, the fastest mercenary.
Remember when geriatric Madnar almost strangled Snake to death and had to be blown up with mines to get him to let go? Wild times.
I had to look up what to do during that part
>that's why Old Snake pretended to not recognize Madnar's name, because it's embarrassing
bravo kOJima
It's like MGS4's epilogue wasn't him coming to terms that he fricked up with the Boss and Old Snake.