Shar is E evil.
She is the original Evil of Faerun, before life existed, she was there and she preferred it that way.
Existence is anathema to her, and she would prefer all of it gone.
She even gave people who worshipped a giant sphere of annihilation power so they would keep sacrificing people to it, since the less people who exist the better.
Why would you ever consider her good?
Yup.
It's all Selune.
Has nothing to do with you not hitting the gym and her being able to see into the yard of the local Lathander church where they're naked and oiling each other up before praising the sun every morning.
My talos neighbor said he noticed my lightning coil was flickering and said he can come over and fix it for me. My wife even told me she'll take a day off to stay home to make sure he doesnt steal anything
Incorrect, she did support revenge pre-cyric team up tho thus was anti-NTR.
No, Selune secretely causes infidelity in women. Wake up, sheeple!
>jokes >doesnt know that in FRs equivalents of north Africa and sandroaches takeover of Byzantine ruins "she who guides" indeed demands tolerance to cheaters and is such level of moronic-stupid alignment that her advice to clerics is "its better that they cheat than for you to fight with them and solve problems".
It speaks volumes about Selune, Shar and Mystra/Mystryl when Mys-"suicide by stupidity, by stupidity of attacking a cop and stupidity by not preventing a glorified burglar"-tra is the least moronic and Shar is a close 2nd in that, not to mention that all their churches are mentally moronic to the point that they make lawful stupid paladin moves seem brilliant and wise.
Strawberry bodywash and a little bit of BO from her pubes. I imagine her fingernails smell slightly like ass and hot cheetos because she doesnt know how to wash her hands, shar taking her memories of hygiene maintenance of course
Yes, she is because she stole Shadowheart from Selune and stole her memories. And all Dark Justiciars are c**ts. No exceptions.
Also, bubbly lil Karlach in back is cute. Cute!
This is moronic. Dog's can easily retrieve stuff from the water
Any land animal can drown, but I've never heard of dogs swimming with a toy being anything abnormally risky, you're just talking completely out of your butthole.
>Only remotely conventionally attractive woman in the game is a cleric of a evil god who breaks said god’s rules constantly
What did they mean by this?
If she was some kind of Drow cultist crazy spider lady then yeah. But I have a pet peeve for the Catholic loophole thing she does where she gets around Shar’s rules on relationships by framing her wiener carousel riding as training.
This. Shar is objectively the worst god in the Forgotten Realms, and it doesn't make sense for anybody to worship her.
She supports cuckolds in their revenge.
Shar isn't about revenge. That's Hoar.
Shar is about absence and loss. If you got cucked and went to a Sharran temple, they'll offer you the "gift" of forgetting about your love in the first place and wipe her from your heart.
>and it doesn't make sense for anybody to worship her.
There are actually full atheist in the Realms too, not just people that denounces the gods. Full atheist, that makes even less sense.
I can see a few people that have given up on life and embraced the idea of Nihilism (destructive Nihilism that is) they would easily worship Shar. Or hell, just someone who's given up hope and wants to see the world burn.
The Realms would hand wave both ideas way with "People are people and regardless of fact they believe in stupid shit."
Which I don't like from a writers point of view but is hard as hell to argue when shit like Flat-Earthers and other weird cults actually exists in real life.
eh honestly, the idea that someone would come to the conclusion that gods are just really really powerful wizards with one hell of an ego isn't even that strange
People have also burned at trying to even handle a fraction of true divine power.
One of the things you'll notice consistently with people who try to argue atheism in the Realms is they like to talk about how "I know for a fact that mortals became gods" and "I know for a fact that the wall of the faithless exists" but then they'll say everything else about divine portfolios and godly abilities is meta knowledge or just conjecture because similar things exist for other people.
Meanwhile if you point out that Karsus was literally consumed from within when he tried to absorb Mystryl's power despite being the most magically gifted mortal ever, or any of the other background people who failed to acquire a divine spark, they don't count because Ao uplifted a few mortals and the Dead Three became gods so clearly anyone can!
Then again there are people who honestly hate that studying doesn't make you a wizard if you didn't win the generic lottery to conduct magic in the first place.
So I have to agree with
>and it doesn't make sense for anybody to worship her.
There are actually full atheist in the Realms too, not just people that denounces the gods. Full atheist, that makes even less sense.
I can see a few people that have given up on life and embraced the idea of Nihilism (destructive Nihilism that is) they would easily worship Shar. Or hell, just someone who's given up hope and wants to see the world burn.
The Realms would hand wave both ideas way with "People are people and regardless of fact they believe in stupid shit."
Which I don't like from a writers point of view but is hard as hell to argue when shit like Flat-Earthers and other weird cults actually exists in real life.
atheists are basically flat earthers doing all sorts of cartwheels to support their claims while ignoring anything contrary to them.
to be fair towards Karsus he tried to go up against the God of Magic itself and created a feedback loop
lesser gods like Lolth have been thwarted by mortals
7 months ago
Anonymous
Not subsumed by mortals though.
The Dead Three famously killed 7 gods before they got to Jergal, but killing those 7 didn't make them into gods.
Whether Ao made them capable of godhood or they had the "divine spark" to begin with isn't exactly clear.
>the Dead Three became gods so clearly anyone can!
Not relevant to the argument. It isn't necessary for EVERY mortal to have the potential to ascend to godhood for the possibility that all gods are ascended mortals to exist.
>Shar is objectively the worst god in the Forgotten Realms
I dunno man, judging by what the frick he is doing in BG3, Bhaal seems to be even worse.
I'd rather die than being tortured.
Tell that to the Dark Urge who was Baldur's Gate's Jack the Ripper.
Or how his nice butler get internally UBW to summon Bhaal.
Or, if you really don't want to believe it, how the bodies are clearly showing signs of torture.
Poor bardgirl.
The dead three, as gods, did nothing. Because they did not act themselves there is no justification for any other god to intervene. All they did was divinely inspire their chosen to work together.
The chosen (mortal champions of the dead three) ended up deciding to use the crown of karsus to make a fake god out of a netherbrain, which they would use to create a big super-army and then use that to kill/take over all of the shit (or at least baldurs gate). In the process they would use mindflayerfication to rob the other gods of their worshippers.
>Bane is a greater god because all of his bullshit means he still has loads of worshippers >ACTUALLY HE'S A QUASI-DEITY NOW BECAUSE AO INVENTED A NEW RULE THAT SAYS ONLY QUASI-DEITIES CAN LEAVE THE DIVINE REALMS >No other gods suspect that the trio of adventurers who, before even becoming gods themselves, murdered several gods and schemed their way into attaining godhood, might be up to something when all three visit Toril, including one who had to give up LOADS of power to do so >Also Mystra showed up on Toril in one of the (few) 5e novels, Auril fricking shows up in that one module, and there are implications of other gods fricking around on Toril in AL shit
Resurrection seems like its mostly a "gameplay convenience", I dont know how canonical him bringing Astarion back after a laser cannon explodes him is, or him bringing back jaheira after I had to kill her so her dialogue would work properly.
But even then it also seems to be arbitrary on top of that, he wont bring them back if they die "meaningful" deaths (like you sacrificing them for power/killing them for their head/staking them through the heart). Or that bard you kill for example.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>die "meaningful" deaths
Jergal's thing with death in AD&D lore was that he was basically a JJBA bad guy.
His STANDO POWA, or unique ability rather, was that he could paralyze someone by staring at them, literally reading out their destiny as it would appear on one of his scrolls, then when got to to the end, they would be transported through time, going through all of the fates he read without adjustment until their death which is now their true death as nothing can change/oppose it.
The Lord of the End of Everything knows how everything and anything is supposed to end, he just is fuzzy on the in between stuff.
So while it was for gameplay convenience, it fits his character to not be able to unwind deaths that are 'supposed' to happen.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>it fits his character to not be able to unwind deaths that are 'supposed' to happen.
I dont think its "he cant" as much as "he wont". He probably could bring the bard you murder back, but he doesent want to.
>That isn't based Red Knight. Get the frick out of here coomer.
Red Knight is like the default animu waifu >Only takes off her armor in front of her love >Is a tactical genius but can't win a fight, needs a brave man to save her >Wants the paladin dick
It doesent matter if its months or years, that kind of abnormal power curve is utterly unjustifiable in a serious setting. You would need to have the game take place over decades or centuries at that point, and some races literally dont live that long.
Sounds like a problem for lesser races, a problem that could be resolved over the course of the campaign.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Sounds like a problem for lesser races, a problem that could be resolved over the course of the campaign.
Honestly that sounds like a fun premise for a game. Less action RPG and more 4x choice based game about shaping the life of an adventuring party over the centuries as they try and get level 20. Non elf party members either have to become liches/vampires or die and get replaced (maybe by their kids?)
7 months ago
Anonymous
Or invest heavily into alchemy so they can produce potions of longevity.
Or make friends with the cult of Isis in Mulhorand so they can get access to rejuvenation treatments.
There are a few ways for longer lifespans in Faerun, but they all need work and have some reliability problems if you want to keep your body functioning.
Jergal has been rezzing and undermining moron gods for centuries, its his entire deal since no longer sitting in the bone tower doing evil laughs and making half naked barbarians with magic transformation powers kill themselves in funny ways, very likely with Aos approval. Be it under pseudonym in Netheril or as recent as NWN2.
The skelly-mummy body is odd for him, but it is Myrkul and the moron 2 fricking about directly instead of him doing cleanup duty after other gods ignored dealing with their past frick ups.
Also funny for you to simp for War Lass when she got her own butt saved by grandpa undead pulling tard wrangling duty twice.
>That isn't based Red Knight. Get the frick out of here coomer.
Red Knight is like the default animu waifu >Only takes off her armor in front of her love >Is a tactical genius but can't win a fight, needs a brave man to save her >Wants the paladin dick
[...]
Sounds like a problem for lesser races, a problem that could be resolved over the course of the campaign.
White human male fighter dick, at least get it right.
He can literally give you 3 level 12 companions. 3 level 12 adventurers are a huge amount of power for anyone. He also gives true resurrection basically at will. You can just steal back your money.
> Auril fricking shows up in that one module
In fairness she, too, is a quasi-deity in it, and the fact that she gave up a significant chunk of power in order to be able to remain on Toril is a significant part of the module’s backstory.
Probably.
Myrkul in AD&D is the king of dicks, and that's what makes him so glorious. >Invents the wall of the faithless, and gets it retconned into some universal truth >Pushes around unclaimed souls for funsies >Shows up at people's funerals to point out random people in the crowd then fricks off without explanation JUST to get people anxious and thinking he's cursed them
He's the best, and NWN2 was the only game to capture that.
him shittalking Kaelyn was utterly glorious
also double fun that you're required to absorb him to reach the ultimate evil ending, and the very first thing you can do after getting that power is subjecting Akachi to the most dickish possible torment, to the point you could almost hear whatever was left of Myrkul laughing it up
I didn't even know I could recruit her. Or steal her parasite for power. I just lured her onto the bridge next to where she argues with that goblin, shot out the bridge and let her fall down the chasm.
>It literally says you do not bang in the infographic, why can't cumbrains pay attention to anything besides gooning?
If you slaughter the grove you get to bang Minthara but she's a drow so the sex sucks in the bad way.
Side save and get your sex scene with her if you absolutely need it for some reason. But all of the other femmes are legitimately better options.
tldr Minthara isn't worth blowing up your primary save for.
It really is kind of baffling how one-sided they made the grove conflict. Maybe there was more meat on the bones of an 'evil' playthrough that was cut content, but as-is if you don't kill the goblins you lose out on a shitton of stuff and the ONLY thing you get in return is Minthara as a party member. Its just a poor trade when siding with the Absolute is something that the game literally will not let you do.
And frankly, it didn't have to be this way. Just let us send the Teiflings on their way and THEN help the Goblins murder the druids after they are gone. Bam, easy. Now all of the later stuff involving the tieflings is still intact, the choice comes down to JUST Minthara vs Halsin as party members, and frankly its an easy sell to the absolute forces because this way they get to fight a less defended grove. There is *no reason* not to do this, but the game won't let you.
>that was cut content
Honestly hearing about the large chunks of cut content, that are mostly complete and intact, is what's put me off picking the game up so far.
I'm kind of hoping for a lot of it to be added back in through updates or the moding community.
Speaking of, how is the moding community? Is it mainly just cosmetic stuff and number modifications?
They usually do a “collector’s editon” or some bullshit where they actually finish the game. With all the bugs the game had at launch they were happy to get the public to do free Q&A for them. At least the game wasn’t as fricked as other companies who literally shit out half finished garbage then never fix it. Wait a year or two and the game will be more finished especially the final act which is extremely threadbare. The part with spectres was the worst shit I played in the whole game, nearly unplayable.
There are no 'big' mods for the game yet, but there have been some extremely promising proof of concept stuff. Like changing the voices of NPCs using an AI language model that reads all of the same dialog but in a different voice.
Imagine a mod that is '[insert NPC] genderswapped version' that is a different model and a different voice for them and all of their scenes are actually voiced with it through the whole game. Its amazing thats actually on the table, and it means that if you can do that for existing dialog you can just as easily have NEW voiced dialog as well.
So if a modder wants to restore some cut content, but not all of the lines are voices/they have to write some new ones to patch it all together? With the right AI voice model, we can still have that be convincingly voiced.
No one has actually used this for anything yet but meme videos, but the fact that it is possible at all means that the future of mods for this game looks extremely bright. I expect that there will be a standardized AI voice pack for all of the major NPCs that becomes available within the next year and after that all future modders use that for their own work to make new dialog.
My assumption is that the actual goal of BG3 was to create a game model/platform upon which a large number of additional games could be made with minimal investment.
To put it another way, 90% of the effort of making the game could just be reused to make another game. The campaign, the characters, all of that is the last 10%. Basically they only had to make a real game once, they can now make the equivalent of a Visual Novel over and over again using that engine and people will buy it, because that's what they're actually there for.
That would be what Larian would do if they are intelligent, but they have a history of just finishing a project and then moving onto some other big project rather than adding anything to the old one. They don't even do expansions.
It really is kind of baffling how one-sided they made the grove conflict. Maybe there was more meat on the bones of an 'evil' playthrough that was cut content, but as-is if you don't kill the goblins you lose out on a shitton of stuff and the ONLY thing you get in return is Minthara as a party member. Its just a poor trade when siding with the Absolute is something that the game literally will not let you do.
And frankly, it didn't have to be this way. Just let us send the Teiflings on their way and THEN help the Goblins murder the druids after they are gone. Bam, easy. Now all of the later stuff involving the tieflings is still intact, the choice comes down to JUST Minthara vs Halsin as party members, and frankly its an easy sell to the absolute forces because this way they get to fight a less defended grove. There is *no reason* not to do this, but the game won't let you.
Imo the most egregious piece of cut content, that seems mostly done, is the gnome bard party member that they've done all the voice lines for but just... didn't add.
[...] >Legit? Why would they do this?
The game took hundreds of people 7 years to make, not every idea they have is going to make it into the final product, whether from time and budget constraints, technical issues, or simply unable to make something fun enough to stay in the game.
>DLC
Honestly I'd be okay with this if it meant more polished content being added back in to the game.
I'm guessing it was because the character was a gnome. If it's a female gnome they'd be worried about pedo claims. If it's a male gnome they'd worry women would flip out about a short male. They didn't even put in any major dwarven characters except a wannabe serial killer who lived with his mom.
Ah so the ghost of David Gaider strikes again?
>tfw Harding was the best LI in DA:I
[...]
Imo the most egregious piece of cut content, that seems mostly done, is the gnome bard party member that they've done all the voice lines for but just... didn't add.
>Legit? Why would they do this?
The game took hundreds of people 7 years to make, not every idea they have is going to make it into the final product, whether from time and budget constraints, technical issues, or simply unable to make something fun enough to stay in the game.
I'm guessing it was because the character was a gnome. If it's a female gnome they'd be worried about pedo claims. If it's a male gnome they'd worry women would flip out about a short male. They didn't even put in any major dwarven characters except a wannabe serial killer who lived with his mom.
Does she really have voice lines, like real companion character number of voice lines instead of being made early and then scraped with some voice lines still in game? Because companion characters have party banter, reactions to events, full dialogues and every spell in game voiced including like 100 vicious mockery insults and they have rest of companions saying something abut this companion. So is there real number of voicelines for this halfling and companion reactions to her or it was just testrun somewhere during development that wasn't deleted from files.
Legit? Why would they do this?
I know a lot of the cut content stems from axing late game areas and thus having to axe a lot of the stuff involving them.
Upper city most likely was buggy mess more than rest of act 3 so they decided to ship game without it, put some band aids over existing act 3 and put game before starfield launch. Larian will get it's money and fix game later with addition of a lot of cut content in definitive edition after it's polished and not buggy mess.
Also as cut content go, a lot of "datamined things cut from game" are just leftovers from scrapped ideas.
>It really is kind of baffling how one-sided they made the grove conflict.
Evil side always get less content, because most people want to play as heroes and not villains.
For a drow she’s a 1/10. I’m 90% certain she was originally a troon then they changed it because two evil troons would have been too much.
>I’m 90% certain she was originally a troon
The game using the very same set of faces for both male and female elves.
Its not so one sided in act 1, its more that it doesent build to anything in later acts. They just needed to populate moonrise towers with actual stories, or maybe have Nere have a bigger role.
Or sacrifice the baby to demons right after it was born as part of some bargain, while feeling they came ahead on that deal. "Jokes on you, demon shit. That kid wasn't even full drow!"
How often do you get female drow on the surface? Left question. I thought with Drow society, few women would ever leave the Underdark; and for the few who do leave even fewer survive getting to the surface to be an ash skinned-bawd. I thought it was mostly drow males because everyone wants to be Drizzt.
Very few but Viconia is a really topical example. She was still kind of evil, but actively trying to be less of a completely evil b***h, and she survived more or less intact over 3 iterations of D&D.
How would I know I have color blindness when looking at this? Like, the greens in Tritanopia look grey or black to me, but is that what the color blind actually see?
> No it wasn't. Even the very idea of "muh problematic" was basically flat-out not a thing, child.
Anon? Unlike your underage ass, I actually did live through the 90s. It wasn’t a *huge* problem but there were still people complaining about the drow backstory involving them being cursed with black skin due to being evil.
>purple spider elves are an allegory for blacks now
why are you people so racist you see blacks on every fantasy monster depiction?
Anon they weren’t drawing the comparison of drow *literally* being Black. You’d know that if you weren’t, also, twelve years old or thereabouts.
Oh, frick off.
[...]
Anger doesn’t change the truth. Nor does denial. Anyone who’s confused about why having the black-skinned elves being evil, and more to the point having them being *cursed* to be black-skinned, and not understanding why that might have been seen as problematic, is kidding themselves. Unlike you people I was old enough to actually be on forums like wizards.com and I saw the occasional thread or saw it come up.
It also was one of the complaints with the Lady Penitent series of novels. Aside from them just generally being bad, there were plenty of people in 2007 who thought it was a bizarre choice for the semi-reformed drow to switch from having black skin to brown, as though their skin getting lighter meant they were less evil and with the implication that truly reformed drow would end up pale. You’ll note that waaaay before we started ignoring the deaths of Vhaeraun and Eilistraee, we were ignoring that.
Again, no one was making a 1:1 black skin = ethnically Black comparison. But there were people taking issue with drow having black skin as a punishment for their evilness for a long-ass time. And pretending like you can’t see that connection just makes you seem moronic.
I'm old enough to remember that shit.
The problem though is most of the people who whined about that were people who whined about literally everything.
Most realmsgays really didn't care, and most still don't care, but get accused by the newcomers of "not understanding social issues" for not conflating symbolism within story structure with real world problems and implications.
That said, most realmsgays hate the Lady Penitent series for a lot of reasons.
These days the people who get upset about the Black Skin thing would be people in the Terminally Online category. That said, word has it that Greenwood also wasn't a fan of the black skin, because he thought it was a complete waste of narrative space, as Drow who blend in and can infiltrate other elven groups open up territory for A LOT of stories, that are just gone by making them stick out so much as different.
yes it was and you are moronic
Gary Gygax was a christc**t and back in the day christgays would in their Sunday schools tell little children that black people are black because they're from a tribe that sinned long ago so God cursed them with dark skin to mark them forever.
Gygax naturally drawing upon his childhood as a christcuck reused the concept because he probably wasn't thinking about it due to being a literal fat moron. However, anyone with critical thinking skills recognized the issue instantly and that's why drow are purple like night elves now
Nta but drows aren't literally black.
Or rather they are literally black skinned.
7 months ago
Anonymous
And no one in this thread has claimed that they were ever interpreted as being Black in the sense of actual real African or African-descended people on Earth.
It was just that the connotation of “they were evil, and so cursed with literally black skin” (with the necessary implication that pale skin = good, at least among elves) was seen as problematic even back in the 90s. Not by as many people as would take issue with it today, but enough that anyone who participated in online forums would have seen it pop up in discussions every now and then.
7 months ago
Anonymous
The Drow were never cursed with black skin, though, they had it to begin with, they were simply a variant of the Elves that worshipped Spider b***h and after she got cast out of Elf heaven they kept worshipping her and declared war on all the other Elves in her name, predictably lost, and got driven underground.
7 months ago
Anonymous
yes, they were lorelet
the reason for their skin color is not because of the underdark but the result of a curse because lolth has twisted them to evil so the other gods banished them to live below the surface and permanently marked them with dark skin forever you stupid c**t
7 months ago
Anonymous
But that's wrong. I have no idea where you're getting your information from but the Drow were never "cursed with black skin" in any version of the game, from Greyhawk to Forgotten Realms.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Just an sjw trying to force their politics into everything. To them all white men are bad and problematic.
7 months ago
Anonymous
why lie?
no, seriously why bother lying when literally in the books and now in bg3 publicly for everyone to see everyone knows that lolth, after betraying her husband corrupted the drow into violence and evil and then the good elven deities cursed their race, causing their dark skin and also banished them to live beneath the surface forevermore
If you actually genuinely don't know drow lore why are you even typing
7 months ago
Anonymous
Again, that's wrong. They already had the black skin to begin with, after Lolth made her power play and was banished to the Abyss most of the Drow kept worshipping her and she molded them into her weapon of vengeance against the Seldarine, they attacked the other Elves, lost, and were driven underground. The Drow were never cursed by the Elven Pantheon during any of this, and in fact are welcome to return to worshipping them at any time as they too are Elvish people.
That's the FR version of the story, at any rate. Again, I have no idea where you are getting this insane idea that the Elvish deities cursed the Drow with black skin from, that isn't the case in FR, and wasn't the case in any other published setting of D&D that had Drow in it either. Gygax originally created them with the idea of having evil Elves that were more akin to the malicious fey of legend, deadly manipulators and killers, and that is the inspiration for their existence. Cite your sources if you want to claim otherwise, which you won't, since you don't have any, and instead will keep trying to claim your insane head canon is actual lore.
7 months ago
Anonymous
The drow having black skin to begin with is a retcon to their backstory dating from the early 00’s, so, longer than most people here have been alive. But in their original lore, they were not black-skinned. I think they might have been tanned rather than pale, but the point is, not black.
7 months ago
Anonymous
If you can find a single source claiming they got cursed with black skin feel free to post it.
not only are you wrong about the drow but lolth as well, she was banished from the pantheon but went to the abyss of her own accord and made her home there
She had nowhere else to go, if you think that "making her home in the Abyss" was something she chose out of multiple options, you are mistaken.
7 months ago
Anonymous
yes she literally went to the abyss by choice and also turned into a spider by choice because she's a crazy, evil b***h
7 months ago
Anonymous
She went to the Abyss because there was no other plane of existence that would accept a deity powered being of her alignment after Corellon cast her out of Arvandor.
7 months ago
Anonymous
dude, you have no clue what you're talking about lmfao
I guess I can't be too hard on you because wotc retcon the lore every 2 seconds but current canon is she went to the abyss because she likes demons
7 months ago
Anonymous
I actually preferred them as light-skinned but evil, but the blue/black look is hot and nerds loved it so it stuck.
In Pathfinder, Elves turn into Drow if they become too evil, in one AP like, Elf Rommel is giving an empassioned speech about how much she fricking hates Orcs or whatever, and just snaps and turns purple mid-speech, while I have to assume was her just giving up and embracing the racism.
"These barbarians have been at our gates for too long, with determination and courage we must-" [turns blue] "KILL THOSE FRICKING PIGGERS TO THE LAST MAN, TOTAL PIGGER DEATH, BEHEAD ORCS, DISEMBOWL ORCS, ROUNDHOUSE KICK A PIGLET INTO THE COBBLESTONES, SLICE ORCS WITH A KATANA, STIR FRY PIGGERS IN A WOK, SHOOT PIGGERS INTO THE SUN, EVISCERATE" etc etc.
Oh, it was Riftwar where they had dark elves who were the same as the light elves but evil, but in that series Elves were a bio-engineered race that ancient dragonlords kept around as sex slaves and farm equipment, so they're weird.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>hating orcs is evil
what? they're fricking evil in pathfinder (and so in D&D), because one in every 2 million comes up as neutra or good like if it had extra chromosomes doesn't spare the rest of orcs
7 months ago
Anonymous
Yeah, but she hated them so much that it went from being about protecting her people and fighting off invaders to her actually enjoying murder. The fact that she was killing evil beings, at that point, was coincidence, she was motivated entirely by rage and a thirst for violence.
Useful to have on your team? Definitely, but you can't ignore that the person is a psychopath. It's like if you were to hire Oskar Dirlewanger to fight your enemies. Sure, he kills partisans, great, but his definition of "Partisan" is "Any Slav with a heartbeat" and that people are starting to notice he's doubled his quota every day for the last six months. Where does he keep finding all of these partisans and why are they all 12 year olds?
7 months ago
Anonymous
Do you actually remember the name of this AP? I would like to see if it's real or if you are just making this up.
7 months ago
Anonymous
There aren't that many of them let me go check, I think it had something to do with a giant meteor.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Frick yeah under a minute Still the Best 1973.
7 months ago
Anonymous
God fricking dammit if I hadn't typed my celebratory post it would've actually been under a minute.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Noteworthy for the second appearance of Shalelu, a recurring elf chick who appeared in Rise of the Runelords as the best girl, this (Second Darkness) as the best girl, and finally in Jade Throne, a campaign built around Ameiko Kaijutsu, one of the developers' waifus. Unfortunately Kaijutsu is trash and Shalelu is the best girl in her AP too.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>tfw romanced and therefore NTR'd the dev with his waifu
7 months ago
Anonymous
Thank you. Well, I scanned the first part of the AP, and while I can't find the Elf general ranting about Orcs getting turned, the whole setup of the module is an Elf that wanted to genocide the Drow became one, so yeah. Man the Pathfinder setting is dumb as frick, spontaneous transformation into another race because your moral axis shifts, really? Even fantasy should have limits. Also it contradicts itself super early because it says "sometimes Elves can be cruel and evil and they don't change" ok, why? It's just handwaved away since it makes no sense.
7 months ago
Anonymous
I should specify that the mid-speech thing was my invention, at some point they bring up the exact moment she "turned," which was at a staff meeting or something. I recall that she was just as surprised as everyone else was.
And yeah... A lot of Pathfinder feels as though it was written in waves, and nobody ever went back to align all the details so that it made sense. Gnomes for example are basically tendrils of some lovecraftian horror from beyond space trying to explore the world. They age and die when they lack new experiences--which makes sense, they're autonomous exploration probes sent by Cthulhu.
Like say what you will, that's at least a radically original take on gnomes, what do they do with it? Nothing. Literally nothing. Like they just forgot about it. Everything in the Pathfinder setting is like this, and it drives me crazy because I like it at face value, but if you look closer you realize it isn't some guy's homebrew setting he really cared about, it's like you asked an AI to make a setting, and it goes through the motions and uses the right language but because the AI doesn't experience qualia it doesn't like or dislike things, it just knows that other people do.
7 months ago
Anonymous
That is actually a pretty fascinating take on Gnomes, I thought their whole deal after playing Kingmaker was that they were simply exiled from the First World and were basically Fey trapped in a world they don't belong to, but they can't go back, which is why they struggle with having to deal with actually being mortal and dying and can go nuts later in life trying to find new things to do so they don't perish. I never read about the "tendrils of an ancient being" thing.
7 months ago
Anonymous
It was done kind of ambiguously but that's what my takeaway from it was, and like a lot of things it's gone through multiple iterations.
Another good example is that Elves in the setting all have weird eyes where the sclera are a different color, so some of them (like Merisiel the iconic rogue) have shark eyes, others have like solid blue eyes, etc.
That was not decided until years into the game's run, if you look at the Elves from Rise of the Runelords they have normal eyes, the weird shark eyes didn't pop up until midway through.
7 months ago
Anonymous
They're evil in almost every setting I play in
7 months ago
Anonymous
What's the name of the AP/ I have to read this. I swear Pathfinder manages to somehow one up even WotC on how ridiculously stupid and silly some of the things they come up with are, I still have no clue how they actually thought Poppets were a cool idea for a race.
7 months ago
Anonymous
at least PF has amazing monks, god unchained monk is so amazing.
4e monks are also really good, but we'll never find a good monk class in D&D ever again, Crawford pretty much confirmed it
7 months ago
Anonymous
PF2E is the only D&D system worth playing unless you can somehow convince a group to play 4E which is the only one with better combat, though it's out of combat system is still worse than PF 2Es.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>In Pathfinder, Elves turn into Drow if they become too evil
This is so fricking dumb lmfao
7 months ago
Anonymous
It's dumb to the point that it isn't even used consistently. There are evil elves in the other APs, one of the guys in Rise of the Runelords was a cleric of Norgorbor (God of Murder) who was a serial killer with a giant cartoon shaving razor. He was an elf, but not a Drow. So it's not even "if elves become evil," it's if elves become evil in a very specific way and only sometimes.
What about Half Elves? Don't know they never explain it. I like the setting but Jesus dude wtf.
7 months ago
Anonymous
My mistake, I posted
>. . . this is madness! Some vile faerfhaor that defies our own magic has caused our skins to become as black as the souls of the Vyshaan. The sun burns and blinds us, and we cannot abide the outdoors. We have taken refuge in a series of caverns and hope to travel south by means of underground tunnels to join our Ilythiiri allies. We leave our homeland with sorrow, knowing that we have been forsaken by the Seldarine . . .
From Grand History of the Realms, specifically the section that talks about a drow of Miyeritar (the good dark elf kingdom that got burned to the ground by sun elves for refusing to join the sun elf empire), having recorded a memory gem of her experiences during the crown wars.
[...]
The tanned/brown skin was part of the WotC retcons, and the lady penitent series of books (mostly hated for their various retcons and changes to the setting). Prior to WotC we didn't know what drow looked like before the descent.
We know some authors thought they looked like other elves (because those authors didn't realize D&D elves look different based on subtype)
We know some authors thought it would be better if they were always obsidian skinned.
But we never got confirmation one way or the other.
From Drow of the Underdark (3e)
>This worried the Seldarine greatly, until the goddess Hanali Celanil, weakest and most pathetic of the pantheon, arose. “We shall solve this problem,” she said, “by marking all those who are not loyal. For while Lolth is the mightiest among us, she cannot stop us if we work together. As day is to night, so shall you be to those who follow the traitor.” And the Seldarine worked their will and wrought great change upon the duaral, turning their skin from the pale of the elves to black as pitch (see sidebar, note 4).
So while it was still a WotC retcon, it was a retcon of a kind of retcon?
I guess technically they never did say what Drow looked like before (as I admitted in my previous post), and WotC said they used to be pale skinned.
However this is listed as one of three creation myths in that book.
The second version says that Lolth gave the Drow ebony skin to better hunt in the underdark.
The third version says all elves were originally drow and then the light skinned elves left the Underdark/Lolth and became light skinned. Read: maximum copium
This is the drow version of the creation myth though, so it kind of misses the whole thing about Eilistraee almost killing Corellon, or Lolth getting her shit slapped by the triune goddess.
7 months ago
Anonymous
not only are you wrong about the drow but lolth as well, she was banished from the pantheon but went to the abyss of her own accord and made her home there
7 months ago
Anonymous
>. . . this is madness! Some vile faerfhaor that defies our own magic has caused our skins to become as black as the souls of the Vyshaan. The sun burns and blinds us, and we cannot abide the outdoors. We have taken refuge in a series of caverns and hope to travel south by means of underground tunnels to join our Ilythiiri allies. We leave our homeland with sorrow, knowing that we have been forsaken by the Seldarine . . .
From Grand History of the Realms, specifically the section that talks about a drow of Miyeritar (the good dark elf kingdom that got burned to the ground by sun elves for refusing to join the sun elf empire), having recorded a memory gem of her experiences during the crown wars.
The drow having black skin to begin with is a retcon to their backstory dating from the early 00’s, so, longer than most people here have been alive. But in their original lore, they were not black-skinned. I think they might have been tanned rather than pale, but the point is, not black.
The tanned/brown skin was part of the WotC retcons, and the lady penitent series of books (mostly hated for their various retcons and changes to the setting). Prior to WotC we didn't know what drow looked like before the descent.
We know some authors thought they looked like other elves (because those authors didn't realize D&D elves look different based on subtype)
We know some authors thought it would be better if they were always obsidian skinned.
But we never got confirmation one way or the other.
7 months ago
Anonymous
is it difficult being this wrong?
7 months ago
Anonymous
All you have to do in order to prove me wrong is post a source showing they got cursed with black skin, which you can't, because it doesn't exist.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>. . . this is madness! Some vile faerfhaor that defies our own magic has caused our skins to become as black as the souls of the Vyshaan. The sun burns and blinds us, and we cannot abide the outdoors. We have taken refuge in a series of caverns and hope to travel south by means of underground tunnels to join our Ilythiiri allies. We leave our homeland with sorrow, knowing that we have been forsaken by the Seldarine . . .
From Grand History of the Realms, specifically the section that talks about a drow of Miyeritar (the good dark elf kingdom that got burned to the ground by sun elves for refusing to join the sun elf empire), having recorded a memory gem of her experiences during the crown wars.
[...]
The tanned/brown skin was part of the WotC retcons, and the lady penitent series of books (mostly hated for their various retcons and changes to the setting). Prior to WotC we didn't know what drow looked like before the descent.
We know some authors thought they looked like other elves (because those authors didn't realize D&D elves look different based on subtype)
We know some authors thought it would be better if they were always obsidian skinned.
But we never got confirmation one way or the other.
ignoring proof that goes against your headcanon won't make it stop existing
7 months ago
Anonymous
Not canon, and directly contradicted by other materials stating that the Drow were always dark skinned since they dwelt in jungles and tropical climates so they evolved differently than the other Elves.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Jungle Drow is Eberron my dude.
And if you're going off of "canon" the current WotC canon (from the PHB) is that drow were always various shades of grey (like orcs) and any depictions of them with any other skin tones is wrong, which means you shouldn't be arguing about black skin at all.
7 months ago
Anonymous
So in current WotC lore Drow are grayskins, in the original D&D lore they ranged from obsidian black to tanned and brown, and in actual video game portrayals they're always some shade of purple. Man the Drow are a joke.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Race obsessed SJWs ruining nerd hobbies are the problem. They want to take everything away from us and make it all into the same generic woke garbage.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Original
They were just obsidian >Bad 2e Artists
They were african americans or old Mediterranean men >Other 2e Artists
Still obsidian >3e
They were brown and cursed to be obsidian >4e
The good ones were brown, the evil ones were obsidian >5e
They were always grey and you're gatekeeping for talking about old lore where they weren't. >Videogames
Blue/Purple is more easier to use, Obsidian takes a lot of skill to show emotion in all but the exact right light, and brown skin just looks brown.
Personally I wish more games took risks with the obsidian since glossy obsidian skin can actually look nice, and the fact that they are hard to read outside fo daylight lighting helps add to the unease that drow should give off.
7 months ago
Anonymous
What I don't get is that if Drow are black people why are they angry?
I thought they wanted more representation in games? Is it because they only want representation if they're the good guys. But then white people will always be the bad guys if nobody else is allowed to be. It's just so moronic.
They want representation but only when it suits them.
7 months ago
Anonymous
I think if you put your mind to it you could imagine stories and villains that aren't "all the black people are bad, and the reason they're black is because they're evil" or "all the white people are bad"
7 months ago
Anonymous
Of course. Because every world and story needs to be as ethnically diverse as modern LA or else it's problematic and written by racist bigots.
7 months ago
Anonymous
yes, with a little effort you could actually make a story that isn't literally a racist charicature
7 months ago
Anonymous
>If black people are the bad guys it's a racist caricature >You spelled it charicature
Wow, that's quite a leap for someone who can't even spell. Stories are harmed by having to include every single skin color, alphabet person, and sexuality under the sun. Most societies today are ethnically homogeneous, it's just modern cities that aren't. Try getting out of your shit hole city and see some other countries.
7 months ago
Anonymous
stop making racist charicatures plz
7 months ago
Anonymous
>other countries
Which countries are you thinking of that are inhabited by purely virtuous or purely evil people?
7 months ago
Anonymous
Drows aren't black people, the people who say that are terminally online morons, but sadlyl wotc listens to them so there's that
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Drow are black people
Only perpetually online crazies honestly say this. >They want more representation
Only ones with chips on their shoulder and grifters say this. >Only want to be good guys
Famously the NAACP gave their blessing to the film Candyman (the original), because they thought having a black slasher villain in a movie where race played a big role without being racist would be really cool and be a great step in showing that we're evolving as a society.
t. Black Guy Though maybe I'm an outlier, I used to make Black person jokes as a teenager, and once gravely insulted one of my mom's friends when her kids called me bourgeois and I said "I'd rather be bourgeois than a Black person."
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Famously the NAACP gave their blessing to the film Candyman (the original), because they thought having a black slasher villain in a movie where race played a big role without being racist would be really cool and be a great step in showing that we're evolving as a society.
There is very obviously a difference between having a black villain, and people cursed with black skin being racially evil. BG3 has a black serial killer and nobody calls it racist because there are good and neutral black characters too.
7 months ago
Anonymous
I agree. But we're also talking two different kinds of black here.
Drow aren't cursed with being bix nood looking mother frickers, they're cursed with skin as black as midnight in the forest.
Candyman isn't a shadow monster, he's Tony Todd with a bit of camera trickery and clever uses of set design.
If we were talking about the people of chult all being evil because they're hardwired that way, that could be a racial issue.
But we're not.
In fact, when people from Chult show up in novels, they're typically pretty fricking heroic, and quite a few times have people gawking about how big/strong/awesome they are, which I personally find a bit weird and perhaps leaning a bit too hard in trying to be "anti-racist", but in the southern sword coast they're probably not used to seeing 6'4" gigachads, and especially not chocolate flavored ones.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Look bait aside, this is kind of the irony of the situation: They aren't black.
The Drow don't look like Africans, the Drow look like the whitest of white people with dark (usually blue/purple but sometimes like vantablack) skin, they are never depicted with the actual features of African people, their hair is straight, silvery, long, their noses are narrow, literally just look at them. They're depicted as a sort of gracile exaggeration of white people but with different pigment.
Somehow, people got from this "oh they're black" because there are people who are actually stupid enough that they think the only thing to a race is pigment, like if my skin were magically made white people wouldn't look at me and say "Ah, that's an Indian" (the kind that sells liquor, not the kind that buys) because I look like I'm trying to help you recover your credit card data.
Now I 100% believe that this wasn't racist, the Drow clearly aren't meant to represent black people, but when some idiot brought that up everyone panicked at TSR or whatever and tried to fudge it by making them blue or purple or something, and then also making heroic Drow and this stupid fricking shit--the reaction made it worse, it corrupted the original idea. We're lucky that this all happened 30 years ago so the controversy is old, they won't change it now, they're too busy being angry about the flying monkeys from Spelljammer.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>the Drow look like the whitest of white people with dark
Not really
The Drow look like elves, and 95% of the time elves look weird as frick and definitely not human. And no, is not just the ears, is the eye placement, the chins, the cheeks, etc. Drow look like elves, but purple/darkblue/grey/black period, not like Black humans or White humans
7 months ago
Anonymous
If we're talking Forgotten Realms elves, aside for their weird hands and strange colors, they're supposed to be exceptionally beautiful.
So we can safely assume they have european features.
7 months ago
Anonymous
The controversy is still effecting content today unfortunately. In the D&D movie we were going to have Drizz't but probably due to the 2020 controversy around drow they replaced him with Xenk the paladin. Xenk was a very shallow character who was a rip off of Drax with his autistic lack of understanding metaphors.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Wait WHAT. The black guy who did the walking straight over the rook scene, that was supposed to be Drizzt?
Frick me dude that would've been awesome.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Yeah it would have made a lot more sense and brought in an interesting character. But alas instead we got some no name character and D&D movies will be abandoned for another 10 years and frankly I couldn't care less https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-movie-drizzt-role-xenk-scrapped/
7 months ago
Anonymous
do you actually think the movie didn't do well due to lack of drizzt? it was because the last d&d movie was shit and wotc are c**ts so nobody had faith
the movie was still great, but had wotc not just gone through several controversies about the pinkertons and their game license the movie would have done way better
7 months ago
Anonymous
I think it would have helped ground it to the existing lore better. But I think the biggest mistake they made was in their marketing. They said something like >We intentionally emasculated all our male characters
right before release. Given the culture war climate and the fact that the film was going to live or die based on white straight males going to watch it they shot themselves in the foot. I'm not even convinced the males in that movie were that emasculated so it was a disaster all around. I think they just wanted to try and get some twitter points and assumed white men would go watch it anyways.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Wait that dude was suppozed to be Drizzt? He isn't a manlet nor has the sharp features of Drizzt
7 months ago
Anonymous
If you read the article (which you clearly didn't) they said they hired the actor to be Xenk not Drizzt. Drizzt was in the original draft of the script though doing the same things but was removed because he was seen to be too problematic.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Allegedly he stopped being Drizzt somewhere towards the end of the writing process. So it was before casting but too late to actually give him a character.
7 months ago
Anonymous
It's not even a situation in which the comparison makes sense in a racist way.
Ah black people, well known for their hyper-matriarchal society, constantly subverting surface-worlders through guile and magic, and also worshipping spiders. When I think of black people negatively, I think of immortal wizards sacrificing babies to their spider god. David Duke, even now, tells tales of the vile tarantula cults of North Wisconsin and their hideous mulatto cannibal origins, things rumored only in the prophetic visions of HP Lovecraft.
Like what the frick, it's one thing if I were to make a race of black ogres who can pick 1d4 bales of cotton with either hand every round and sing SWING LOOOOOOW SWEEET CHAAAAAAARIOT for a +2 buff to all endurance tests. I would agree that that is racist. But this is the situation where like, you depict a race that is dumb as hammered shit, can't do math, and won't eat anything that can feel pain so they're all like super vegans, but then you make their skin yellowish and someone says "wow cool it with the Anti-Asian stereotypes dude."
7 months ago
Anonymous
it's interesting that /misc/tards are totally unable to cope with the racist lore of drow so they have to steer the conversation, gaslight and so on >PEOPLE THINK DROW ARE Black folkS IRL
nobody believes this and nobody said this
what people said was >the lore that drow were cursed with obsidian skin is similar to actual biblical stories where black people are cursed with black skin by god
it's not that they are LITERAL black people the problem is that in the making of their lore TSR accidentally made an oopsie reference to real life things real life people were saying that was OBJECTIVELY racist
realizing that this looks bad for them, they changed it, get the frick over it
if you write a story and the main villain is a guy called the "imperial wizard" who's costume happens to coincidentally look like a kkk outfit
people will notice, it could have been completely and entirely accidental, shit happens, but it's still racist intentional or not
now that might make your blood boil (obviously it does because unlike the people at TSR you are a genuine racist and encourage racism) but to a normal person they'll see this and realize >oh, welp, we made an accident, let's just change that and hope everything smooths over
and then everyone moves on
7 months ago
Anonymous
>but it's still racist intentional or not
interesting.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Ignore him
7 months ago
Anonymous
everyone wotc included is already ignoring you, deluded racist homosexual
7 months ago
Anonymous
yes, do you think...it's not?
7 months ago
Anonymous
racism is an arbitrary value judgement. It cant actually be done unintentionally
7 months ago
Anonymous
you're right it is arbitrary but the line is based on societal standards, not individual standards
from a societal standpoint it's racist hence the problem, understand?
and the solution is simple, in fact it's already done I'm pretty sure in 5e drow were always dark skinned, thus solving the problem
[...]
>the truth is bait
not reading your post, go leave and frick off
7 months ago
Anonymous
>nobody believes this and nobody said this
Uh huh. Okay so in actuality yes they did and I was there. You can't lie about this shit to try and retrofit it into your gay narrative bro.
>muh /misc/
Meds. I'd understand if someone went off on a 5000 word tirade about israelites but no, this is a real thing that really happened to real people and we are STILL reaping the benefits of it.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Uh huh. Okay so in actuality yes they did
Okay no one IN THIS THREAD has said or implied that, and in fact have gone out of their way to make it clear that they were not talking about black drow being literally 1:1 Africans.
7 months ago
Anonymous
And nobody was accusing anyone in this thread of having done that, it was ACCURATELY DESCRIBED that the moronic schizo episode about Drow was rooted in that, which it was.
You are too ashamed and cowardly to admit to your old positions so you default to the new ones. You lost that war so if you want to try and reframe it please do. We'll win this one too. Blow off cuckold.
7 months ago
Anonymous
no, nobody has ever said drow are literally black people
7 months ago
Anonymous
Big lmao, nice try. Yes they did and I was there to see it. You can try to convince children who weren't born yet of that, but it's not going to work on anyone old enough to vote.
>lose debate >samegay >get banned >hop on your phone and declare that you won
/pol/tard moment
>Lose
No I won, and crushed you. You got some sperg banned and assumed wrongly that it was me. I am still here and I humiliated you effortlessly.
No re.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>I was there to see it.
clearly not because it didn't happen, we already outlined why people called drow racist
you have no argument against this because you know you're wrong so you have to deflect and go >uh...UHHH YOU THINK DROW ARE REAL BLACK PEOPLE YOU'RE CRAZY YOU'RE CRAZY
you have no argument
and that's why you lost
7 months ago
Anonymous
Nah. Yes they did, and I know because I was there.
You can seethe about the fact that your position is based in cringe. I understand it even. But it is cringe, and you are cringe. That was the controversy. And you were wrong then, and you are a cuck now. Why even deny it?
Regardless I have won totally and you have tried (and failed) to have me banned. Do you know why that is?
7 months ago
Anonymous
k, prove it
prove it right now
7 months ago
Anonymous
Which one? The fact that you're analfractured or the fact that you're cringe? Be specific.
7 months ago
Anonymous
prove people were saying drow were 1 to 1 black people
7 months ago
Anonymous
Goalposts lmao.
>I'm not seething you are! >he exclaims, furiously typing about how much he hates "the Black folk" in a d&d thread for several hours
yes, you're clearly very sane and not mad at all
The entire argument as far as I can tell is that I think D&D is less racist and the racist complaints against D&D are less valid than some 2-3 homosexuals who think it is sort of racist because the Drow are black but also not black.
Literally nobody is saying that they're mad because of Black folk in D&D. Nobody said that. The cuck I'm arguing with wouldn't even accuse me of saying that. We are arguing over a technical, structural definition of what qualifies something as racism.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>no proof
ah, and there it is
concession accepted
7 months ago
Anonymous
you know we can all scroll up and read right? the argument started here
Do you really need the problem with black = evil to be explained? This was considered problematic in the 90s, nevermind today.
you stupidly replies with
>purple spider elves are an allegory for blacks now
why are you people so racist you see blacks on every fantasy monster depiction?
you were then corrected by
> No it wasn't. Even the very idea of "muh problematic" was basically flat-out not a thing, child.
Anon? Unlike your underage ass, I actually did live through the 90s. It wasn’t a *huge* problem but there were still people complaining about the drow backstory involving them being cursed with black skin due to being evil.
[...]
Anon they weren’t drawing the comparison of drow *literally* being Black. You’d know that if you weren’t, also, twelve years old or thereabouts.
[...] [...]
Anger doesn’t change the truth. Nor does denial. Anyone who’s confused about why having the black-skinned elves being evil, and more to the point having them being *cursed* to be black-skinned, and not understanding why that might have been seen as problematic, is kidding themselves. Unlike you people I was old enough to actually be on forums like wizards.com and I saw the occasional thread or saw it come up.
It also was one of the complaints with the Lady Penitent series of novels. Aside from them just generally being bad, there were plenty of people in 2007 who thought it was a bizarre choice for the semi-reformed drow to switch from having black skin to brown, as though their skin getting lighter meant they were less evil and with the implication that truly reformed drow would end up pale. You’ll note that waaaay before we started ignoring the deaths of Vhaeraun and Eilistraee, we were ignoring that.
Again, no one was making a 1:1 black skin = ethnically Black comparison. But there were people taking issue with drow having black skin as a punishment for their evilness for a long-ass time. And pretending like you can’t see that connection just makes you seem moronic.
you then proceeded to have a mental breakdown for multiple hours
you are a clown
7 months ago
Anonymous
so why did the duergar and svirfneblin get cursed with black skin and white hair?
7 months ago
Anonymous
Short races have no lore because no one gave a frick about them.
7 months ago
Anonymous
or could it be that humanoids who live in the underdark evolve black skin and then some butthole elf wrote IC lore about this being a curse?
7 months ago
Anonymous
I always thought it was like a defense mechanism to hide in the darkness better but I also don't read most of the lore stuff so
7 months ago
Anonymous
If they bring back Underdark radiation. Sure.
That was the reason dwarves were dying out as well. Radiation levels were spiking in underground areas and while Drow were strengthened by it, it was making dwarves sterile.
One could say the Underdark skin tones are a factor there.
But then the radiation got retconned into Faezruss and then got retconned into not existing.
I always thought it was like a defense mechanism to hide in the darkness better but I also don't read most of the lore stuff so
That would make sense in current lore where dark vision is just grey scale night vision. In old lore it was infrared so skin color didn't matter much.
7 months ago
Anonymous
you have zero reading comprehension skills, jesus
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Nta but drows aren't literally black
9/10 times, sure, but then you get outliers like this every once in a while and suddenly everyone's upset again
7 months ago
Anonymous
It's kind of hot, I won't lie. But I think in the current canon, or more recent stuff, Drow had brown skin before it being turned into jet black after being corrupted.
> christgays would in their Sunday schools tell little children that black people are black because they're from a tribe that sinned long ago so God cursed them with dark skin to mark them forever.
I thought that was just Mormons, which Gygax wasn’t.
7 months ago
Anonymous
it's anyone who went to any sort of catholic or montessori school from the 80s to like 2008
Minthara isnt particularly pale, shes about the same as viconia. But the drow in the game are more "purple" than full on black, probably because actually coal black skin doesent emote very well.
Yes, shes unironically the best written companion. She doesent have much content (lacks a proper questline and such) but her dialogue is pretty much entirely gold. Also her romance is really fun if youre playing the Dark Urge (which you should be, since hes the designated protagonist).
Personally I found her really likable. A lot of the companions struggle with having quite "weak" characters and she avoided that nicely while at the same time not being batshit or cartoonish. Shes also probably the best "evil companion" ive seen done, being both undeniably evil but also still coming across as entirely human and understandable.
>Shes also probably the best "evil companion" ive seen done, being both undeniably evil but also still coming across as entirely human and understandable.
Characters like Minthara are actually why I like playing evil PCs in tabletop. Being sympathetic and rational but still utterly evil is fun to play and surprisingly compelling.
It is, but honestly I wouldnt trust most people to play a character like her on the tabletop, its a really thin line between being cartoonish one way or the other, where it can easily end up as skeleton suddenly turning to camera and going "I saw a puppy die and I was sad" or alternatively just a normal person occasionally talking about how evil they are (looking at you, shadowheart).
A lot of the challenge comes from alignment. People often think evil characters have to kick puppies for fun, and so that's how they act out evil characters.
I actually find that neutral characters do more evil than evil-aligned ones. Neutral PCs will rob and murder people for starting fights with them, not even blinking an eye. Evil PCs tend to be too moronic to survive up to that point.
I think in no small part that "extreme perception" comes from the fact that, like with party members in a video game, tabletop characters often only get quite limited screen time to display themselves and make an impression (certainly depending on how your games go).
Nuanced characters often come off as wishy washy and lacking in definition because when you just act like a normal person a lot of the time you cant really compete with Smite McRighteous and Dastardly Dickstab for focus or "screentime".
>Bane for israelites
?? Pretty sure South Korea is mostly Christian
Meanwhile bhaal is some kind of aztec zombie.
>The art director literally asked for bane to look like a k-pop star and make him gay
Dude is coated in b***hes gets laid almost as much as Bhaal did.
Yet we get this shit because WotC decided to virtue signal wit their new art director.
That bane would have all of the b***hes on his dick, who are you kidding?
7 months ago
Anonymous
Bhaal was already 2/3rds way to zombie in art before. But more "rundown fishing villages crackprostitute pimp" rather than aztec.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Bhaal in art before was after his avatar had been destroyed due to retcons in the Moonshae Isles books so he was just stealing corpses and using them to create more corpses so he'd have an endless train of bodies to steal.
After becoming a god again creating a new body should be easy.
The mistake too many people, writers and players alike, is mistaking what evil IS.
Evil is not 'I kill kids for fun, I torture the barmaid because I can'. Thats not really evil, its just fricking mental sickness. Literally unable to stop yourself from being a malicious goblin shit even when doing so will very obviously get you killed. As you say, such characters realistically are too moronic to survive for any length of time. Such characters KNOW that they are being 'evil', and are gleeful about it, which isn't really how people function most of the time. Thats teenager shit, excited by the transgression of doing what your parents told you not to do simply because you can.
Evil is, instead, being WILLING to kill kids and torture the barmaid. Not for fun, but because it gets you want you want. And afterwards, you are not bothered by the things you've done because you considered them necessary. Evil does something monstrous while thinking it did the right thing and never once loses sleep over it.
Bondrewd is how you do evil. Yes, he performed inhumane experiments on orphans that lead to either their death or horrific transformations, but there were things he had to do and doing inhuman experiments on adult prisoners just wasn't as efficient. Oh, so now you're mad about the prisoner thing too? Listen, do you want to learn how the giant cursed murder hole works or not? Cause there's only one way to get data on this, and its not asking politely.
7 months ago
Anonymous
What you described is Lawful evil
7 months ago
Anonymous
Or neutral evil. Bondrewd isn't lawful, he just isn't a moron. He's absolutely breaking the law doing what he is doing, he's just doing it for a goal he has in mind rather than shits and giggles.
The idea that by default evil has to be crazy and stupid to be 'evil', and that evil that can coexist with society is some kind of special exception, is a massive cope by people who desperately want to be able to immediately recognize evil on sight. Its like how before the concept of profiling serial killers, murderers were just written off as 'I dunno, I guess they are just bad people. they don't need reasons to do what they do, thats what makes them bad'. The idea of murderers acting the way they did for a reason was treated as being unthinkable, when in reality it was really just uncomfortable.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>He's absolutely breaking the law doing what he is doing
Beyond LG, lawful alignment doesnt give much of a frick about nations laws, just about adherance to ideals and some form of order (hell on the flip side one can argue the entire reason why CG even can exist is that its signature deals are in practice mostly evil actions done against targets that deserve it for a good cause without going overboard). He has his code, clear goals and isnt fricking about for shits and giggles, that already puts him closer to LE than CE within NE alignment. Just specifically about the single point, overall very much agree.
7 months ago
Anonymous
I wouldnt say thats "all" evil, but yes, thats certainly how you make evil "work". And given the tagential context its also rather fitting because thats basically Minthara to a T (with the "mental illness" evil being the bhaalspawn player character, assuming they indulge)
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Evil is not 'I kill kids for fun, I torture the barmaid because i can
that is literally Chaotic evil described in a sentence though
>This is a lolth neighbourhood traitor.
You can always change your ways
He is resurrecting the shit out of hirelings and party members. His hands are not clean.
[...]
That isn't based Red Knight. Get the frick out of here coomer.
>Get the frick out of here coomer.
Honestly the nudity isn't something I really care about at all. I'm moreso a fan of the just good-naturedness of it. Help people, enjoy life, don't hesitate to stop evil; it's genuinely the perfect faith for an adventurer.
> be kind and good > have a fun time, dance and party > if evil starts shit, end them swiftly and with prejudice > then go back to partying
I mean, its not exactly a deep ideology but I can see the appeal. Good without being impotent in the face of evil, and fights evil without being a huge sperg about it.
Yeah, it's just a really solid faith I can get behind. It's a damn shame she's so barely mentioned, but I am really happy that the sword exists. If you're an eilistraee cleric like I am in my BG3 playthrough, you don't even have to do the sidequest, the sword just immediately gives itself to you. It's pretty neat,
Yeah, those are pretty similar gods. I'd say that Eilistraee has more of a focus on community and specifically the Underdark of course. More of a faith for those who are normally outcast to have a bright and good community to be a part of.
You have to submit to sex and gender change if you want to worship her.
That's just not true. There are ceremonies and such iirc where you can change your sex/gender, and the clergy is loosely matriarchal, but it's in the sense of nurturing and uplifting all people, including men, rather than Lolth's militant matriarchy. Men can worship her just fine
Worship, couldnt be priests.
5e tried to retcon that, but Ed Greenwood was enough of a sperg to have had his ancient book deals overwrite that, as nothing may try to revoke his magical realm of his friends and players fricking the realms greatest prostitutes...
But i guess if he was more moral or cultured to keep the bawdtery out, FR wouldnt exist either and D&D wouldnt have been blessed with the (mostly) mechanically good FR books for 2e and 3e.
"I frick Mistra and used to be an archmage"
"I'm a veteran of the Blood War"
"I'm a living legend and a hero"
"I'm the chosen one"
"I'm the chosen one too"
"I'm a vampire spawn"
"I'm an interdimensional badass warrior"
That's Larian's writing.
In D:OS2 every character was super advanced in their career and famous and super hot shit despite being low level trash.
In Larian writing PCs have to either be the chosen one from the beginning or with grand huge backgrounds, because people climbing from the bottom and learning as they go is hard to plan for if you don't want to take your setting seriously.
>because people climbing from the bottom and learning as they go is hard to plan for if you don't want to take your setting seriously.
Some random hobo killing god in two weeks because he killed enough rats is harder to plan for if you plan to take your setting seriously.
By setting up the protagonists as already special you dont need to explain the fact that they ARE special (something which they inherently and unavoidably are, given how quickly they grain power).
don't forget they are all that and still they are shitty level 1 characters. That's like Vecna turning out to be a level 1 character
The tadpoles frick your brain. Gale and the Dark urge also got fricked even before the tadpole. Shadowheart was always a scrub, shes just chosen by her goddess(es).
>Some random hobo killing god in two weeks because he killed enough rats is harder to plan for if you plan to take your setting seriously.
If you take your setting seriously such adventures shouldn't take place over two weeks, but rather months if not years.
It doesent matter if its months or years, that kind of abnormal power curve is utterly unjustifiable in a serious setting. You would need to have the game take place over decades or centuries at that point, and some races literally dont live that long.
Levels in game don't represent what they represent on the tabletop. They're simply a convenient way to stagger the content. They have no in-universe relevance or meaning. That's why unused companions automatically level up to whatever level you're at when you include them in your party. >what about your gear though >why is none of it magical
Four of your companions start out with magic gear from prior adventures: Gale, Shadowheart, Karlach and Wyll all possess items imbued with powerful magic.
That's Larian's writing.
In D:OS2 every character was super advanced in their career and famous and super hot shit despite being low level trash.
In Larian writing PCs have to either be the chosen one from the beginning or with grand huge backgrounds, because people climbing from the bottom and learning as they go is hard to plan for if you don't want to take your setting seriously.
Larian separates mechanics and story, meaning that no matter if the Red Prince is a master occultist, learned warrior, and a famous general he's still level 1 when you meet him because Larian just doesn't give a frick about levels, see how Braccus Rex, the supposedly strongest sourcerer in history, comes back as a really fricking unfair level 8 undead while a rock's throw away there are level 9 bees.
I especially wonder why they did it that way for their first game, are they not planning for a sequel? I liked how your characters progressed in BGs, one of the ways you felt this progress was how you recruit an amateur paladin looking to prove himself in BG1 when you're low level and when you're higher level in BG2 you recruit his experienced teacher who taught lots of paladins. I haven't played this game yet but it looks like they went BG2 power level with everything from start
>Gale
Excusable high level start, Myrstra is canon gigathot (also not mary sue, his flaws literally keep biting him in the ass) >Karlach
Partially reasonable high level start, a barbarian 14-15 can in limited no flight arena confidently fight most devils and demons >Wyll
Interactions with characters show he is a failure and entirely self titled hero outside of random hobo villages, fitting for a moron that took a deal with a cambion of all things, not even a pit fiend or at least ice or bone devil, didnt manage to go beyond 13th level making him the second weakest party member pre-tadpole nerf. >Shart
Unchosen one unless you help her, if you help her not Mary Sue, default cucked moon path is half way there to MS >Mith
Unchosen twice, what little of character arc she has is about her thinking her flaws are her strength >Astariaon
As generic as vampire spawn get and they litter 1/5th the coast, also fujo bait so far from Sue >Frog
Mentally moronic yanki whose entire plot is undoing her thinking she was without flaw if you dont kill her or bait her to suicide
Even ignoring the 2 or if true legacy PC is included 3 other characters, its still barely 1 true sue that gets tomboy pass and 2 less than half sues doth not the entire cast make. Most of their writing being insufferable doesnt mean you should apply the incorrect terminology.
>Unchosen twice, what little of character arc she has is about her thinking her flaws are her strength
I assume he meant Durge, the chosen scion of Bhaal.
Minthara is just a drow paladin with bad luck in terms of employment.
Then the anon is even more moronic, didnt read books, didnt play Blood in Baldurs Gate or most likely all 3.
And thats also a very accurate description even if it undermines a bit that her character moments show she very much" argued the deals of her employment" in the first round and unless dick corrected keeps thinking she was right (thus my point of thinks her flaws are arent flaws).
>her character moments show she very much" argued the deals of her employment" in the first round
I would argue its the exact opposite. She doesent think she was done wrong by the hand she was dealt, but her character moments were much show (even beyond her outright saying as much) that her course was largely set for her by her birth as a daughter of house Baenre and that this came with its various caveats and limitations (as well as the various benefits of course).
Shes aware that the life she lived/lives (and will likely keep living for as long as she lives) has a price, and ultimately does desire a life where she can have the things she cant (its the carrot the absolute dangled for her), but she ultimately sees that sort of life as both inevitable and also "the way things are in the world".
Theres a fairly interesting conversation you can have with her early in act 1 on more or less this topic, where despite the various misgivings she has about her childhood/how she was raised she ultimately sees herself as having been priveledged by it.
>unless dick corrected keeps thinking she was right (thus my point of thinks her flaws are arent flaws).
Unless something big occurs at the very end, she keeps thinking shes right in the romance path too, because she is generally aware of what she is and what she believes, she wont stop thinking that ultimately might makes right or whatever, her romance is more about her finding someone she can trust and call an equal (and then microdose on poison so they cant be assassinated if they visit her home).
> be kind and good > have a fun time, dance and party > if evil starts shit, end them swiftly and with prejudice > then go back to partying
I mean, its not exactly a deep ideology but I can see the appeal. Good without being impotent in the face of evil, and fights evil without being a huge sperg about it.
>The art director literally asked for bane to look like a k-pop star and make him gay
Dude is coated in b***hes gets laid almost as much as Bhaal did.
Yet we get this shit because WotC decided to virtue signal wit their new art director.
They've been rolling the idea of making the squiddies relevant since BG2 and Hordes From The Underdark. We semi-recently had an adventure module that dumps even more illithid variants on the pile and the Absolute Shitshow guarantees there's going to be freshly-converted mind flayers all across the coast.
I legitimately think Wizards is planning on pushing for playable githyanki and illithids very soon.
>Playable gith
Has been a thing since what like 3e? And has been a thing in 5e since MotM >Playable squids
I find it doubtful that they'll go hard in simping for literal brain devouring parasites. The fact that good illithid exist is meant to be a lowercase-a aberration. Their life cycle depends on wasp zombie rape. It's like the slaad, they'd unironically get cancelled and deserve it if they were suggesting what they do is in any way ok.
>simping for literal brain devouring parasites
just wait till twitter finds a race to latch them into, they'll immediately soft their background, make them the misunderstood starfaring race and make them playable
LG Heaven is climbing a mountain constantly improving yourself, (Arcadia), NG heaven is one where you just have a deeper and more intense experience of things like physical sensation (in a good way, music sounds clearer, wine tastes sweeter, that kind of thing) and you more or less just chill, and CG heaven (Arborea/Olympus) is basically a place where you frick, fight, and feast all the time and there's no real rhyme or reason to any of it. So since Bahamut is a LG it's mountain climbing for you.
Bahamut is the creator of the material plane and thus its his "real" plane. His afterlife is temporary. His afterlife is essentially playing with dragons for an amount of time equivalent to your time on the material plane, your memories slip away day by day and then you are reincarnated
this is also incidentally the fate of ALL dragons regardless of what they do
retconned, in 5e forgotten realms he, tiamat and sardior invented the prime material plane and it was sundered into the many worlds that make up the various settings like Toril, Eberron and so on
In Forgotten Realms?
Bahamut is a barely known chump with very little power/influence, so he probably needs to crash at someone else's domain.
Dragons were a genetically engineered slave race in old FR lore, so their power is almost all in the physical world as opposed to Greyhawk making them spiritually significant as well.
No. Shar is actually one of the worst deities I've ever seen and I only realized this when dealing with Sneedowheart.
To wit, every "Evil" God can at least say, in some sense, that their work is necessary and that they are essentially employing means to a good end. Bane is a tyrant, yeah, but I'll bet his worshippers make sick roads. Cyric patronizes the mad, Bhaal is the God of Extralitigious Nuptual Termination (beating your wife to death with a golf trophy) and Myrkul, well homies die.
But NOT fricking Shar. Oh no, Shar wouldn't be caught dead doing something good and useful even by accident, she is UNIFORMLY a massive b***h to everyone, an iconoclast not because the icons are false but because they bring people joy. She regularly torments her most loyal worshippers, not to prove a point or even for fun, I don't think she has fun, I cannot imagine Shar enjoying her wickedness, it strikes me as more compulsive, mindless cruelty.
Lolth is better. LOLTH is better. At least Lolth helps keep the fricking mosquito population down, but Shar? I'll bet Shar is the Goddess of Mosquitos, they're annoying and cause pain and the only good thing they do is support the population of horrible spiders and annoying ass fricking frogs. She has no gimmick, no trick, no cunning angle, she's just fricking evil and she knows it and will tell you openly "oh yeah I'm fricking evil time to die alone b***h" and STILL people will fricking Stan for her, Shadowheart being the most egregious and absurd example possible.
I have never seen a more coherent and well framed depiction of a deranged religious fanatic than her, because she SEEMS like a nice person until you actually get into the meat of what she believes, which is only NOT omnicidal because if everyone died there would be nobody left to suffer, even Bhaal is less evil because every once in a while someone gets murdered actually deserves it, NOBODY deserves Shar.
She is.
And she is.
Shar is basically the christian concept of the devil.
She represents all that is dark and evil and unholy.
She is the lack of warmth and light you feel when you turn away from God.
She is the antithesis to all that is right and righteous in the world.
Her existence is a constant, as until all beings reach enlightenment, there will forever be Shar.
Just in a setting with polytheism instead of monotheism that's a lot harder to sell, which is why AD&D sold it as Shar gave access to better spells and more power than most gods did, as every named priestess of Shar was either insanely powerful or ran entire mafias.
this all gets extra freaky when you remember there's a heretical order that believes selune and shar are the same god with two faces and despite being marked as enemies by both the church of shar and selune the clerics of this heretical sect receive the powers of shar and selune simultaneously
It annoyed the shit out of me that WotC introduced that "all of the heretical cults still get divine magic what could it meeeaaan!"
Especially because we found out it was a precursor to changes for 4e, so odds are someone in the writing room was considering making Selune/Shar the same person, like they did with Lathander and Amaunator despite both of them existing at the same time in previous lore.
She is important, but in the bad way. The Shadowweave is like a discount taint from Wheel of Time, she just introduced evil and entropy to the system of magic.
As for the game tbh I thought it was great by the standards of CRPGs these days. I'd like them to make more, but it's hard to be really impressed with the plot of BG3 when you remember BG2 and how over the top awesome it was.
Like, Gortash, pretty cool, liked him, he is not Jon Irenicus. Nobody is Jon Irenicus. Nobody can ever be Jon Irenicus again because David Warner died.
I'm done with FR because it lead to a flood of FR secondaries asking lorelet questions, also I didn't realize how pozzed Ed Greenwod was having picked up FR from 2e, 3e, and the novels. Turns out it was a shit setting this entire time.
She is important, but in the bad way. The Shadowweave is like a discount taint from Wheel of Time, she just introduced evil and entropy to the system of magic.
As for the game tbh I thought it was great by the standards of CRPGs these days. I'd like them to make more, but it's hard to be really impressed with the plot of BG3 when you remember BG2 and how over the top awesome it was.
Like, Gortash, pretty cool, liked him, he is not Jon Irenicus. Nobody is Jon Irenicus. Nobody can ever be Jon Irenicus again because David Warner died.
I honestly feel bad for mosquitos to some extent, because it’s only the females that are bloodsucking disease spreaders. Males are not only completely harmless, they’re pollinators. They help flowers propagate. They do the same job as bumblebees but without even the remotest threat of being stung.
>To wit, every "Evil" God can at least say, in some sense, that their work is necessary
And of course, this makes those gods massive fricking liars. Shar at least has the honesty to be upfront about just wanting to be a massive butthole without trying to pretty it up under the guise of being "useful."
Why not a discussion about Umberlee or Beshaba? Perhaps of Kossuth, Auril, Waukeen or Akadi?
Ah, its because this thread is made by wayward shills who should be on Ganker at worst or at best hobby tourists who simp for Larian's shallow interpretation of the second worst edition of the Forgotten Realms (after 4e's).
Not him but, no one likes the b***h queen, they just like that her priestesses canonically go around in see through skintight garments and splash themselves with water all the time, and Tymora's hot sister is just bad.
Kossuth is about being orderly, taking care of yourself physically, and showing discipline in all things, so no one who obsesses over waifus cares about him (and most people in general would find him offensive). Auril is a b***h. Waukeen is problematic because she spent a decade as the unwilling(?) concubine to grazzt.
Akadi is a literal who in realmslore.
I remember finding it funny that when Tyche split in two it was supposed to be her Beautiful but Evil half and her Ugly but Good half.
Then the descriptions were >Insanely hot and crazy b***h who you would convince you to leave your wife even though you know she's going to rip your dick off
And >Tomboy waifu who likes to gamble and party and have loads of fun but is also virginal
Reminder, cuckolds. You cannot change the truth. The internet is eternal. You are NEVER going to get to play your lies down. You are NEVER going to make us forget.
Every single thing you did, we remember. Forever. And you will not be permitted to forget. Nor will anyone else.
Forever. As long as you live. I will be there. Yes. You. Fricking. Did. Every minute of every day I will be there. As I breathe, you will die with my mocking words in your ear.
>Reminder, cuckolds. You cannot change the truth. The internet is eternal. You are NEVER going to get to play your lies down. You are NEVER going to make us forget.
this but unironically, this is why rightoids lost the culture war because all their sins and lies are on full display for everyone to see and with the power of the internet their petty attempts at deflection lose power since people can disprove them on the spot
exactly like what happened in this thread
>I'm not seething you are! >he exclaims, furiously typing about how much he hates "the Black folk" in a d&d thread for several hours
yes, you're clearly very sane and not mad at all
Shar is E evil.
She is the original Evil of Faerun, before life existed, she was there and she preferred it that way.
Existence is anathema to her, and she would prefer all of it gone.
She even gave people who worshipped a giant sphere of annihilation power so they would keep sacrificing people to it, since the less people who exist the better.
Why would you ever consider her good?
She supports cuckolds in their revenge.
Cuckolds do it to themselves.
No, Selune secretely causes infidelity in women. Wake up, sheeple!
Yup.
It's all Selune.
Has nothing to do with you not hitting the gym and her being able to see into the yard of the local Lathander church where they're naked and oiling each other up before praising the sun every morning.
My talos neighbor said he noticed my lightning coil was flickering and said he can come over and fix it for me. My wife even told me she'll take a day off to stay home to make sure he doesnt steal anything
Praise selune
Don't care. I'll correct her with rape
Keep that contained to the campaign you play with friends...oh wait.
>impregnate goddess who wants to end all new things
>she now has conflicting feelings over the new life she has created
I mean she was Mask's Mom and she was perfectly happy to vore him for his portfolio and power.
Incorrect, she did support revenge pre-cyric team up tho thus was anti-NTR.
>jokes
>doesnt know that in FRs equivalents of north Africa and sandroaches takeover of Byzantine ruins "she who guides" indeed demands tolerance to cheaters and is such level of moronic-stupid alignment that her advice to clerics is "its better that they cheat than for you to fight with them and solve problems".
It speaks volumes about Selune, Shar and Mystra/Mystryl when Mys-"suicide by stupidity, by stupidity of attacking a cop and stupidity by not preventing a glorified burglar"-tra is the least moronic and Shar is a close 2nd in that, not to mention that all their churches are mentally moronic to the point that they make lawful stupid paladin moves seem brilliant and wise.
But Shar has cute worshippers. She can't be ALL bad all the time, can she?
Frick that is a spicy image. Please tell me what she smells like. ive never been close to a woman
Strawberry bodywash and a little bit of BO from her pubes. I imagine her fingernails smell slightly like ass and hot cheetos because she doesnt know how to wash her hands, shar taking her memories of hygiene maintenance of course
Yes, she is because she stole Shadowheart from Selune and stole her memories. And all Dark Justiciars are c**ts. No exceptions.
Also, bubbly lil Karlach in back is cute. Cute!
Don't throw dog's toys into the water, it will get lungs full of water after swimming with an open mouth
This is moronic. Dog's can easily retrieve stuff from the water
Any land animal can drown, but I've never heard of dogs swimming with a toy being anything abnormally risky, you're just talking completely out of your butthole.
What if the dog is a boat and also my wife?
Fixed.
Hot
That’s not a thick bush like in the game.
>Only remotely conventionally attractive woman in the game is a cleric of a evil god who breaks said god’s rules constantly
What did they mean by this?
good people look good in fantasy and her appearance was your first clue that she's been manipulated into following an evil god
>He doesn't want to dominate and mating press
Guess how I know you're a feminine hipped weakling virgin
If she was some kind of Drow cultist crazy spider lady then yeah. But I have a pet peeve for the Catholic loophole thing she does where she gets around Shar’s rules on relationships by framing her wiener carousel riding as training.
>karlach boiling the water
cute
This. Shar is objectively the worst god in the Forgotten Realms, and it doesn't make sense for anybody to worship her.
Shar isn't about revenge. That's Hoar.
Shar is about absence and loss. If you got cucked and went to a Sharran temple, they'll offer you the "gift" of forgetting about your love in the first place and wipe her from your heart.
>and it doesn't make sense for anybody to worship her.
There are actually full atheist in the Realms too, not just people that denounces the gods. Full atheist, that makes even less sense.
I can see a few people that have given up on life and embraced the idea of Nihilism (destructive Nihilism that is) they would easily worship Shar. Or hell, just someone who's given up hope and wants to see the world burn.
The Realms would hand wave both ideas way with "People are people and regardless of fact they believe in stupid shit."
Which I don't like from a writers point of view but is hard as hell to argue when shit like Flat-Earthers and other weird cults actually exists in real life.
eh honestly, the idea that someone would come to the conclusion that gods are just really really powerful wizards with one hell of an ego isn't even that strange
after all people have ascended to become gods
People have also burned at trying to even handle a fraction of true divine power.
One of the things you'll notice consistently with people who try to argue atheism in the Realms is they like to talk about how "I know for a fact that mortals became gods" and "I know for a fact that the wall of the faithless exists" but then they'll say everything else about divine portfolios and godly abilities is meta knowledge or just conjecture because similar things exist for other people.
Meanwhile if you point out that Karsus was literally consumed from within when he tried to absorb Mystryl's power despite being the most magically gifted mortal ever, or any of the other background people who failed to acquire a divine spark, they don't count because Ao uplifted a few mortals and the Dead Three became gods so clearly anyone can!
Then again there are people who honestly hate that studying doesn't make you a wizard if you didn't win the generic lottery to conduct magic in the first place.
So I have to agree with
atheists are basically flat earthers doing all sorts of cartwheels to support their claims while ignoring anything contrary to them.
to be fair towards Karsus he tried to go up against the God of Magic itself and created a feedback loop
lesser gods like Lolth have been thwarted by mortals
Not subsumed by mortals though.
The Dead Three famously killed 7 gods before they got to Jergal, but killing those 7 didn't make them into gods.
Whether Ao made them capable of godhood or they had the "divine spark" to begin with isn't exactly clear.
>People have also burned at trying to even handle a fraction of true divine power.
Yes, it takes a particularly powerful or lucky individual.
>the Dead Three became gods so clearly anyone can!
Not relevant to the argument. It isn't necessary for EVERY mortal to have the potential to ascend to godhood for the possibility that all gods are ascended mortals to exist.
>Shar is objectively the worst god in the Forgotten Realms
I dunno man, judging by what the frick he is doing in BG3, Bhaal seems to be even worse.
I'd rather die than being tortured.
>I'd rather die than being tortured.
Bhaal is a god of murder. He should be killing, not torturing. You're probably thinking of Loviatar.
Tell that to the Dark Urge who was Baldur's Gate's Jack the Ripper.
Or how his nice butler get internally UBW to summon Bhaal.
Or, if you really don't want to believe it, how the bodies are clearly showing signs of torture.
Poor bardgirl.
Good as in better written? Then yes, better than lolth and vlakith
shar is just selune in cosplay the most long con bipolar god in existence playing us all for fools with her extistence long women moment
The Dead Three were completely justified. They should've won
Nah, Jergal was right about them. They are tards not even worthy of the name gods.
Won what, what was even their goal? To kill people with an army if mind flayers? The other gods or Ao would just frick them right back.
The dead three, as gods, did nothing. Because they did not act themselves there is no justification for any other god to intervene. All they did was divinely inspire their chosen to work together.
The chosen (mortal champions of the dead three) ended up deciding to use the crown of karsus to make a fake god out of a netherbrain, which they would use to create a big super-army and then use that to kill/take over all of the shit (or at least baldurs gate). In the process they would use mindflayerfication to rob the other gods of their worshippers.
>Bane is a greater god because all of his bullshit means he still has loads of worshippers
>ACTUALLY HE'S A QUASI-DEITY NOW BECAUSE AO INVENTED A NEW RULE THAT SAYS ONLY QUASI-DEITIES CAN LEAVE THE DIVINE REALMS
>No other gods suspect that the trio of adventurers who, before even becoming gods themselves, murdered several gods and schemed their way into attaining godhood, might be up to something when all three visit Toril, including one who had to give up LOADS of power to do so
>Also Mystra showed up on Toril in one of the (few) 5e novels, Auril fricking shows up in that one module, and there are implications of other gods fricking around on Toril in AL shit
Does no one care about consistency anymore?
Gods following the second sundering care not for any of the rules and seek to obtain their aims through dumb means fricking up the lands
As it turns out, several other gods did suspect something. Jergal specifically got off his ass and personally came to clean up their shit.
Technically Jergal only interferes to help The Dark Urge out if Bhaal smites them. Hes just kind of observing and watching you deal with them.
He is resurrecting the shit out of hirelings and party members. His hands are not clean.
That isn't based Red Knight. Get the frick out of here coomer.
Resurrection seems like its mostly a "gameplay convenience", I dont know how canonical him bringing Astarion back after a laser cannon explodes him is, or him bringing back jaheira after I had to kill her so her dialogue would work properly.
But even then it also seems to be arbitrary on top of that, he wont bring them back if they die "meaningful" deaths (like you sacrificing them for power/killing them for their head/staking them through the heart). Or that bard you kill for example.
>die "meaningful" deaths
Jergal's thing with death in AD&D lore was that he was basically a JJBA bad guy.
His STANDO POWA, or unique ability rather, was that he could paralyze someone by staring at them, literally reading out their destiny as it would appear on one of his scrolls, then when got to to the end, they would be transported through time, going through all of the fates he read without adjustment until their death which is now their true death as nothing can change/oppose it.
The Lord of the End of Everything knows how everything and anything is supposed to end, he just is fuzzy on the in between stuff.
So while it was for gameplay convenience, it fits his character to not be able to unwind deaths that are 'supposed' to happen.
>it fits his character to not be able to unwind deaths that are 'supposed' to happen.
I dont think its "he cant" as much as "he wont". He probably could bring the bard you murder back, but he doesent want to.
>That isn't based Red Knight. Get the frick out of here coomer.
Red Knight is like the default animu waifu
>Only takes off her armor in front of her love
>Is a tactical genius but can't win a fight, needs a brave man to save her
>Wants the paladin dick
Sounds like a problem for lesser races, a problem that could be resolved over the course of the campaign.
>Sounds like a problem for lesser races, a problem that could be resolved over the course of the campaign.
Honestly that sounds like a fun premise for a game. Less action RPG and more 4x choice based game about shaping the life of an adventuring party over the centuries as they try and get level 20. Non elf party members either have to become liches/vampires or die and get replaced (maybe by their kids?)
Or invest heavily into alchemy so they can produce potions of longevity.
Or make friends with the cult of Isis in Mulhorand so they can get access to rejuvenation treatments.
There are a few ways for longer lifespans in Faerun, but they all need work and have some reliability problems if you want to keep your body functioning.
Lathander is the only great god.
Torm would be, but he's got the taint of being a former mortal.
Eilistraee coomers are the worst sort of coomers.
Jergal has been rezzing and undermining moron gods for centuries, its his entire deal since no longer sitting in the bone tower doing evil laughs and making half naked barbarians with magic transformation powers kill themselves in funny ways, very likely with Aos approval. Be it under pseudonym in Netheril or as recent as NWN2.
The skelly-mummy body is odd for him, but it is Myrkul and the moron 2 fricking about directly instead of him doing cleanup duty after other gods ignored dealing with their past frick ups.
Also funny for you to simp for War Lass when she got her own butt saved by grandpa undead pulling tard wrangling duty twice.
White human male fighter dick, at least get it right.
He can literally give you 3 level 12 companions. 3 level 12 adventurers are a huge amount of power for anyone. He also gives true resurrection basically at will. You can just steal back your money.
> Auril fricking shows up in that one module
In fairness she, too, is a quasi-deity in it, and the fact that she gave up a significant chunk of power in order to be able to remain on Toril is a significant part of the module’s backstory.
My book here says you're wrong. You should read it.
much preferred NWN2's take on Myrkul
I'm still wondering if WotC was pissed at Obsidian for doing Myrkul more justice than they ever could
Probably.
Myrkul in AD&D is the king of dicks, and that's what makes him so glorious.
>Invents the wall of the faithless, and gets it retconned into some universal truth
>Pushes around unclaimed souls for funsies
>Shows up at people's funerals to point out random people in the crowd then fricks off without explanation JUST to get people anxious and thinking he's cursed them
He's the best, and NWN2 was the only game to capture that.
him shittalking Kaelyn was utterly glorious
also double fun that you're required to absorb him to reach the ultimate evil ending, and the very first thing you can do after getting that power is subjecting Akachi to the most dickish possible torment, to the point you could almost hear whatever was left of Myrkul laughing it up
Yea
Is it worth recruiting Minthara just to bang her?
No. Drow pussy is a dime a dozen.
I didn't even know I could recruit her. Or steal her parasite for power. I just lured her onto the bridge next to where she argues with that goblin, shot out the bridge and let her fall down the chasm.
Arabella can still die too in ignore the grove path and that's good thing
It literally says you do not bang in the infographic, why can't cumbrains pay attention to anything besides gooning?
If you ignore the grove, if you slaughter them you get to bang.
>It literally says you do not bang in the infographic, why can't cumbrains pay attention to anything besides gooning?
If you slaughter the grove you get to bang Minthara but she's a drow so the sex sucks in the bad way.
Side save and get your sex scene with her if you absolutely need it for some reason. But all of the other femmes are legitimately better options.
tldr Minthara isn't worth blowing up your primary save for.
>cut content involving impregnating her and CHAD-ZAK
It really is kind of baffling how one-sided they made the grove conflict. Maybe there was more meat on the bones of an 'evil' playthrough that was cut content, but as-is if you don't kill the goblins you lose out on a shitton of stuff and the ONLY thing you get in return is Minthara as a party member. Its just a poor trade when siding with the Absolute is something that the game literally will not let you do.
And frankly, it didn't have to be this way. Just let us send the Teiflings on their way and THEN help the Goblins murder the druids after they are gone. Bam, easy. Now all of the later stuff involving the tieflings is still intact, the choice comes down to JUST Minthara vs Halsin as party members, and frankly its an easy sell to the absolute forces because this way they get to fight a less defended grove. There is *no reason* not to do this, but the game won't let you.
>that was cut content
Honestly hearing about the large chunks of cut content, that are mostly complete and intact, is what's put me off picking the game up so far.
I'm kind of hoping for a lot of it to be added back in through updates or the moding community.
Speaking of, how is the moding community? Is it mainly just cosmetic stuff and number modifications?
They usually do a “collector’s editon” or some bullshit where they actually finish the game. With all the bugs the game had at launch they were happy to get the public to do free Q&A for them. At least the game wasn’t as fricked as other companies who literally shit out half finished garbage then never fix it. Wait a year or two and the game will be more finished especially the final act which is extremely threadbare. The part with spectres was the worst shit I played in the whole game, nearly unplayable.
There are no 'big' mods for the game yet, but there have been some extremely promising proof of concept stuff. Like changing the voices of NPCs using an AI language model that reads all of the same dialog but in a different voice.
Imagine a mod that is '[insert NPC] genderswapped version' that is a different model and a different voice for them and all of their scenes are actually voiced with it through the whole game. Its amazing thats actually on the table, and it means that if you can do that for existing dialog you can just as easily have NEW voiced dialog as well.
So if a modder wants to restore some cut content, but not all of the lines are voices/they have to write some new ones to patch it all together? With the right AI voice model, we can still have that be convincingly voiced.
No one has actually used this for anything yet but meme videos, but the fact that it is possible at all means that the future of mods for this game looks extremely bright. I expect that there will be a standardized AI voice pack for all of the major NPCs that becomes available within the next year and after that all future modders use that for their own work to make new dialog.
I want female Astarion. I want a vampire cutie to frick my straight white fighter.
My assumption is that the actual goal of BG3 was to create a game model/platform upon which a large number of additional games could be made with minimal investment.
To put it another way, 90% of the effort of making the game could just be reused to make another game. The campaign, the characters, all of that is the last 10%. Basically they only had to make a real game once, they can now make the equivalent of a Visual Novel over and over again using that engine and people will buy it, because that's what they're actually there for.
That would be what Larian would do if they are intelligent, but they have a history of just finishing a project and then moving onto some other big project rather than adding anything to the old one. They don't even do expansions.
The actual goal of BG3 was to make BG3, it's on an updated version of the engine they made DoS2 in.
I want to fix the Child PC mod.
Imo the most egregious piece of cut content, that seems mostly done, is the gnome bard party member that they've done all the voice lines for but just... didn't add.
Legit? Why would they do this?
I know a lot of the cut content stems from axing late game areas and thus having to axe a lot of the stuff involving them.
Ten bucks says it's DLC.
>DLC
Honestly I'd be okay with this if it meant more polished content being added back in to the game.
Ah so the ghost of David Gaider strikes again?
>tfw Harding was the best LI in DA:I
Any idea what the character was meant to be like?
>Legit? Why would they do this?
The game took hundreds of people 7 years to make, not every idea they have is going to make it into the final product, whether from time and budget constraints, technical issues, or simply unable to make something fun enough to stay in the game.
I'm guessing it was because the character was a gnome. If it's a female gnome they'd be worried about pedo claims. If it's a male gnome they'd worry women would flip out about a short male. They didn't even put in any major dwarven characters except a wannabe serial killer who lived with his mom.
Does she really have voice lines, like real companion character number of voice lines instead of being made early and then scraped with some voice lines still in game? Because companion characters have party banter, reactions to events, full dialogues and every spell in game voiced including like 100 vicious mockery insults and they have rest of companions saying something abut this companion. So is there real number of voicelines for this halfling and companion reactions to her or it was just testrun somewhere during development that wasn't deleted from files.
Upper city most likely was buggy mess more than rest of act 3 so they decided to ship game without it, put some band aids over existing act 3 and put game before starfield launch. Larian will get it's money and fix game later with addition of a lot of cut content in definitive edition after it's polished and not buggy mess.
Also as cut content go, a lot of "datamined things cut from game" are just leftovers from scrapped ideas.
>It really is kind of baffling how one-sided they made the grove conflict.
Evil side always get less content, because most people want to play as heroes and not villains.
>I’m 90% certain she was originally a troon
The game using the very same set of faces for both male and female elves.
Its not so one sided in act 1, its more that it doesent build to anything in later acts. They just needed to populate moonrise towers with actual stories, or maybe have Nere have a bigger role.
For a drow she’s a 1/10. I’m 90% certain she was originally a troon then they changed it because two evil troons would have been too much.
Literally obsessed. Jumping at shadows. Making shit up and then getting mad at the thing that exists only in your head.
Found the troony. Your kind aren’t welcome here.
>I’m 90% certain she was originally a troon
DId you forget your meds this morning?
She isnt even that hot for a drow, you as a player can make hotter drows
uh oh my dick
I can fix her
If female drow look like that how come there aren't bazillion half-elf drows walking around?
Because they literally won't frick your pathetic slave dick. And even if they did they'd abort.
Or sacrifice the baby to demons right after it was born as part of some bargain, while feeling they came ahead on that deal. "Jokes on you, demon shit. That kid wasn't even full drow!"
How often do you get female drow on the surface? Left question. I thought with Drow society, few women would ever leave the Underdark; and for the few who do leave even fewer survive getting to the surface to be an ash skinned-bawd. I thought it was mostly drow males because everyone wants to be Drizzt.
Under current lore I assume a lot now that there're way more good aligned drow that would have problems living under the Loth cult
Very few but Viconia is a really topical example. She was still kind of evil, but actively trying to be less of a completely evil b***h, and she survived more or less intact over 3 iterations of D&D.
>you as a player can make hotter drows
You as a player can make a hotter PC than any NPC.
That's a modded in face, though.
>white
>drow
Pick one and only one.
I don't know who this b***h is, but she's clearly not drow.
Do you have problems with your screen? that's clearly grey and light purple
>t-that's not pink, it's clearly *salmon*
Put the purse back into its holster, homosexual. Point is that she's clearly not a drow.
That's what happens when you don't kill innocent civilians for 2 days as a Drow
Anon...
ok what's the meme with this picture? all 4 panels look the same a bunch of green and red tomatoes
How would I know I have color blindness when looking at this? Like, the greens in Tritanopia look grey or black to me, but is that what the color blind actually see?
>grey or black
...anon? you're memeing right?
wh yare drows so pale these days?
Doesn't it make more sense for them to be pale?
no because the underdark is FULL of infrared radiation. Thats why in old DnD adventurers would return from the underdark with a tan
I thought IR couldn't give you a tan.
>infrared
>tan
Are you moronic? Infrared doesn't contain UV, you don't get tan from infrared
Do you really need the problem with black = evil to be explained? This was considered problematic in the 90s, nevermind today.
>purple spider elves are an allegory for blacks now
why are you people so racist you see blacks on every fantasy monster depiction?
>This was considered problematic in the 90s
No it wasn't. Even the very idea of "muh problematic" was basically flat-out not a thing, child.
> No it wasn't. Even the very idea of "muh problematic" was basically flat-out not a thing, child.
Anon? Unlike your underage ass, I actually did live through the 90s. It wasn’t a *huge* problem but there were still people complaining about the drow backstory involving them being cursed with black skin due to being evil.
Anon they weren’t drawing the comparison of drow *literally* being Black. You’d know that if you weren’t, also, twelve years old or thereabouts.
Anger doesn’t change the truth. Nor does denial. Anyone who’s confused about why having the black-skinned elves being evil, and more to the point having them being *cursed* to be black-skinned, and not understanding why that might have been seen as problematic, is kidding themselves. Unlike you people I was old enough to actually be on forums like wizards.com and I saw the occasional thread or saw it come up.
It also was one of the complaints with the Lady Penitent series of novels. Aside from them just generally being bad, there were plenty of people in 2007 who thought it was a bizarre choice for the semi-reformed drow to switch from having black skin to brown, as though their skin getting lighter meant they were less evil and with the implication that truly reformed drow would end up pale. You’ll note that waaaay before we started ignoring the deaths of Vhaeraun and Eilistraee, we were ignoring that.
Again, no one was making a 1:1 black skin = ethnically Black comparison. But there were people taking issue with drow having black skin as a punishment for their evilness for a long-ass time. And pretending like you can’t see that connection just makes you seem moronic.
I'm old enough to remember that shit.
The problem though is most of the people who whined about that were people who whined about literally everything.
Most realmsgays really didn't care, and most still don't care, but get accused by the newcomers of "not understanding social issues" for not conflating symbolism within story structure with real world problems and implications.
That said, most realmsgays hate the Lady Penitent series for a lot of reasons.
These days the people who get upset about the Black Skin thing would be people in the Terminally Online category.
That said, word has it that Greenwood also wasn't a fan of the black skin, because he thought it was a complete waste of narrative space, as Drow who blend in and can infiltrate other elven groups open up territory for A LOT of stories, that are just gone by making them stick out so much as different.
yes it was and you are moronic
Gary Gygax was a christc**t and back in the day christgays would in their Sunday schools tell little children that black people are black because they're from a tribe that sinned long ago so God cursed them with dark skin to mark them forever.
Gygax naturally drawing upon his childhood as a christcuck reused the concept because he probably wasn't thinking about it due to being a literal fat moron. However, anyone with critical thinking skills recognized the issue instantly and that's why drow are purple like night elves now
Nta but drows aren't literally black.
Or rather they are literally black skinned.
And no one in this thread has claimed that they were ever interpreted as being Black in the sense of actual real African or African-descended people on Earth.
It was just that the connotation of “they were evil, and so cursed with literally black skin” (with the necessary implication that pale skin = good, at least among elves) was seen as problematic even back in the 90s. Not by as many people as would take issue with it today, but enough that anyone who participated in online forums would have seen it pop up in discussions every now and then.
The Drow were never cursed with black skin, though, they had it to begin with, they were simply a variant of the Elves that worshipped Spider b***h and after she got cast out of Elf heaven they kept worshipping her and declared war on all the other Elves in her name, predictably lost, and got driven underground.
yes, they were lorelet
the reason for their skin color is not because of the underdark but the result of a curse because lolth has twisted them to evil so the other gods banished them to live below the surface and permanently marked them with dark skin forever you stupid c**t
But that's wrong. I have no idea where you're getting your information from but the Drow were never "cursed with black skin" in any version of the game, from Greyhawk to Forgotten Realms.
Just an sjw trying to force their politics into everything. To them all white men are bad and problematic.
why lie?
no, seriously why bother lying when literally in the books and now in bg3 publicly for everyone to see everyone knows that lolth, after betraying her husband corrupted the drow into violence and evil and then the good elven deities cursed their race, causing their dark skin and also banished them to live beneath the surface forevermore
If you actually genuinely don't know drow lore why are you even typing
Again, that's wrong. They already had the black skin to begin with, after Lolth made her power play and was banished to the Abyss most of the Drow kept worshipping her and she molded them into her weapon of vengeance against the Seldarine, they attacked the other Elves, lost, and were driven underground. The Drow were never cursed by the Elven Pantheon during any of this, and in fact are welcome to return to worshipping them at any time as they too are Elvish people.
That's the FR version of the story, at any rate. Again, I have no idea where you are getting this insane idea that the Elvish deities cursed the Drow with black skin from, that isn't the case in FR, and wasn't the case in any other published setting of D&D that had Drow in it either. Gygax originally created them with the idea of having evil Elves that were more akin to the malicious fey of legend, deadly manipulators and killers, and that is the inspiration for their existence. Cite your sources if you want to claim otherwise, which you won't, since you don't have any, and instead will keep trying to claim your insane head canon is actual lore.
The drow having black skin to begin with is a retcon to their backstory dating from the early 00’s, so, longer than most people here have been alive. But in their original lore, they were not black-skinned. I think they might have been tanned rather than pale, but the point is, not black.
If you can find a single source claiming they got cursed with black skin feel free to post it.
She had nowhere else to go, if you think that "making her home in the Abyss" was something she chose out of multiple options, you are mistaken.
yes she literally went to the abyss by choice and also turned into a spider by choice because she's a crazy, evil b***h
She went to the Abyss because there was no other plane of existence that would accept a deity powered being of her alignment after Corellon cast her out of Arvandor.
dude, you have no clue what you're talking about lmfao
I guess I can't be too hard on you because wotc retcon the lore every 2 seconds but current canon is she went to the abyss because she likes demons
I actually preferred them as light-skinned but evil, but the blue/black look is hot and nerds loved it so it stuck.
In Pathfinder, Elves turn into Drow if they become too evil, in one AP like, Elf Rommel is giving an empassioned speech about how much she fricking hates Orcs or whatever, and just snaps and turns purple mid-speech, while I have to assume was her just giving up and embracing the racism.
"These barbarians have been at our gates for too long, with determination and courage we must-" [turns blue] "KILL THOSE FRICKING PIGGERS TO THE LAST MAN, TOTAL PIGGER DEATH, BEHEAD ORCS, DISEMBOWL ORCS, ROUNDHOUSE KICK A PIGLET INTO THE COBBLESTONES, SLICE ORCS WITH A KATANA, STIR FRY PIGGERS IN A WOK, SHOOT PIGGERS INTO THE SUN, EVISCERATE" etc etc.
Oh, it was Riftwar where they had dark elves who were the same as the light elves but evil, but in that series Elves were a bio-engineered race that ancient dragonlords kept around as sex slaves and farm equipment, so they're weird.
>hating orcs is evil
what? they're fricking evil in pathfinder (and so in D&D), because one in every 2 million comes up as neutra or good like if it had extra chromosomes doesn't spare the rest of orcs
Yeah, but she hated them so much that it went from being about protecting her people and fighting off invaders to her actually enjoying murder. The fact that she was killing evil beings, at that point, was coincidence, she was motivated entirely by rage and a thirst for violence.
Useful to have on your team? Definitely, but you can't ignore that the person is a psychopath. It's like if you were to hire Oskar Dirlewanger to fight your enemies. Sure, he kills partisans, great, but his definition of "Partisan" is "Any Slav with a heartbeat" and that people are starting to notice he's doubled his quota every day for the last six months. Where does he keep finding all of these partisans and why are they all 12 year olds?
Do you actually remember the name of this AP? I would like to see if it's real or if you are just making this up.
There aren't that many of them let me go check, I think it had something to do with a giant meteor.
Frick yeah under a minute Still the Best 1973.
God fricking dammit if I hadn't typed my celebratory post it would've actually been under a minute.
Noteworthy for the second appearance of Shalelu, a recurring elf chick who appeared in Rise of the Runelords as the best girl, this (Second Darkness) as the best girl, and finally in Jade Throne, a campaign built around Ameiko Kaijutsu, one of the developers' waifus. Unfortunately Kaijutsu is trash and Shalelu is the best girl in her AP too.
>tfw romanced and therefore NTR'd the dev with his waifu
Thank you. Well, I scanned the first part of the AP, and while I can't find the Elf general ranting about Orcs getting turned, the whole setup of the module is an Elf that wanted to genocide the Drow became one, so yeah. Man the Pathfinder setting is dumb as frick, spontaneous transformation into another race because your moral axis shifts, really? Even fantasy should have limits. Also it contradicts itself super early because it says "sometimes Elves can be cruel and evil and they don't change" ok, why? It's just handwaved away since it makes no sense.
I should specify that the mid-speech thing was my invention, at some point they bring up the exact moment she "turned," which was at a staff meeting or something. I recall that she was just as surprised as everyone else was.
And yeah... A lot of Pathfinder feels as though it was written in waves, and nobody ever went back to align all the details so that it made sense. Gnomes for example are basically tendrils of some lovecraftian horror from beyond space trying to explore the world. They age and die when they lack new experiences--which makes sense, they're autonomous exploration probes sent by Cthulhu.
Like say what you will, that's at least a radically original take on gnomes, what do they do with it? Nothing. Literally nothing. Like they just forgot about it. Everything in the Pathfinder setting is like this, and it drives me crazy because I like it at face value, but if you look closer you realize it isn't some guy's homebrew setting he really cared about, it's like you asked an AI to make a setting, and it goes through the motions and uses the right language but because the AI doesn't experience qualia it doesn't like or dislike things, it just knows that other people do.
That is actually a pretty fascinating take on Gnomes, I thought their whole deal after playing Kingmaker was that they were simply exiled from the First World and were basically Fey trapped in a world they don't belong to, but they can't go back, which is why they struggle with having to deal with actually being mortal and dying and can go nuts later in life trying to find new things to do so they don't perish. I never read about the "tendrils of an ancient being" thing.
It was done kind of ambiguously but that's what my takeaway from it was, and like a lot of things it's gone through multiple iterations.
Another good example is that Elves in the setting all have weird eyes where the sclera are a different color, so some of them (like Merisiel the iconic rogue) have shark eyes, others have like solid blue eyes, etc.
That was not decided until years into the game's run, if you look at the Elves from Rise of the Runelords they have normal eyes, the weird shark eyes didn't pop up until midway through.
They're evil in almost every setting I play in
What's the name of the AP/ I have to read this. I swear Pathfinder manages to somehow one up even WotC on how ridiculously stupid and silly some of the things they come up with are, I still have no clue how they actually thought Poppets were a cool idea for a race.
at least PF has amazing monks, god unchained monk is so amazing.
4e monks are also really good, but we'll never find a good monk class in D&D ever again, Crawford pretty much confirmed it
PF2E is the only D&D system worth playing unless you can somehow convince a group to play 4E which is the only one with better combat, though it's out of combat system is still worse than PF 2Es.
>In Pathfinder, Elves turn into Drow if they become too evil
This is so fricking dumb lmfao
It's dumb to the point that it isn't even used consistently. There are evil elves in the other APs, one of the guys in Rise of the Runelords was a cleric of Norgorbor (God of Murder) who was a serial killer with a giant cartoon shaving razor. He was an elf, but not a Drow. So it's not even "if elves become evil," it's if elves become evil in a very specific way and only sometimes.
What about Half Elves? Don't know they never explain it. I like the setting but Jesus dude wtf.
My mistake, I posted
From Drow of the Underdark (3e)
>This worried the Seldarine greatly, until the goddess Hanali Celanil, weakest and most pathetic of the pantheon, arose. “We shall solve this problem,” she said, “by marking all those who are not loyal. For while Lolth is the mightiest among us, she cannot stop us if we work together. As day is to night, so shall you be to those who follow the traitor.” And the Seldarine worked their will and wrought great change upon the duaral, turning their skin from the pale of the elves to black as pitch (see sidebar, note 4).
So while it was still a WotC retcon, it was a retcon of a kind of retcon?
I guess technically they never did say what Drow looked like before (as I admitted in my previous post), and WotC said they used to be pale skinned.
However this is listed as one of three creation myths in that book.
The second version says that Lolth gave the Drow ebony skin to better hunt in the underdark.
The third version says all elves were originally drow and then the light skinned elves left the Underdark/Lolth and became light skinned. Read: maximum copium
This is the drow version of the creation myth though, so it kind of misses the whole thing about Eilistraee almost killing Corellon, or Lolth getting her shit slapped by the triune goddess.
not only are you wrong about the drow but lolth as well, she was banished from the pantheon but went to the abyss of her own accord and made her home there
>. . . this is madness! Some vile faerfhaor that defies our own magic has caused our skins to become as black as the souls of the Vyshaan. The sun burns and blinds us, and we cannot abide the outdoors. We have taken refuge in a series of caverns and hope to travel south by means of underground tunnels to join our Ilythiiri allies. We leave our homeland with sorrow, knowing that we have been forsaken by the Seldarine . . .
From Grand History of the Realms, specifically the section that talks about a drow of Miyeritar (the good dark elf kingdom that got burned to the ground by sun elves for refusing to join the sun elf empire), having recorded a memory gem of her experiences during the crown wars.
The tanned/brown skin was part of the WotC retcons, and the lady penitent series of books (mostly hated for their various retcons and changes to the setting). Prior to WotC we didn't know what drow looked like before the descent.
We know some authors thought they looked like other elves (because those authors didn't realize D&D elves look different based on subtype)
We know some authors thought it would be better if they were always obsidian skinned.
But we never got confirmation one way or the other.
is it difficult being this wrong?
All you have to do in order to prove me wrong is post a source showing they got cursed with black skin, which you can't, because it doesn't exist.
ignoring proof that goes against your headcanon won't make it stop existing
Not canon, and directly contradicted by other materials stating that the Drow were always dark skinned since they dwelt in jungles and tropical climates so they evolved differently than the other Elves.
Jungle Drow is Eberron my dude.
And if you're going off of "canon" the current WotC canon (from the PHB) is that drow were always various shades of grey (like orcs) and any depictions of them with any other skin tones is wrong, which means you shouldn't be arguing about black skin at all.
So in current WotC lore Drow are grayskins, in the original D&D lore they ranged from obsidian black to tanned and brown, and in actual video game portrayals they're always some shade of purple. Man the Drow are a joke.
Race obsessed SJWs ruining nerd hobbies are the problem. They want to take everything away from us and make it all into the same generic woke garbage.
>Original
They were just obsidian
>Bad 2e Artists
They were african americans or old Mediterranean men
>Other 2e Artists
Still obsidian
>3e
They were brown and cursed to be obsidian
>4e
The good ones were brown, the evil ones were obsidian
>5e
They were always grey and you're gatekeeping for talking about old lore where they weren't.
>Videogames
Blue/Purple is more easier to use, Obsidian takes a lot of skill to show emotion in all but the exact right light, and brown skin just looks brown.
Personally I wish more games took risks with the obsidian since glossy obsidian skin can actually look nice, and the fact that they are hard to read outside fo daylight lighting helps add to the unease that drow should give off.
What I don't get is that if Drow are black people why are they angry?
I thought they wanted more representation in games? Is it because they only want representation if they're the good guys. But then white people will always be the bad guys if nobody else is allowed to be. It's just so moronic.
They want representation but only when it suits them.
I think if you put your mind to it you could imagine stories and villains that aren't "all the black people are bad, and the reason they're black is because they're evil" or "all the white people are bad"
Of course. Because every world and story needs to be as ethnically diverse as modern LA or else it's problematic and written by racist bigots.
yes, with a little effort you could actually make a story that isn't literally a racist charicature
>If black people are the bad guys it's a racist caricature
>You spelled it charicature
Wow, that's quite a leap for someone who can't even spell. Stories are harmed by having to include every single skin color, alphabet person, and sexuality under the sun. Most societies today are ethnically homogeneous, it's just modern cities that aren't. Try getting out of your shit hole city and see some other countries.
stop making racist charicatures plz
>other countries
Which countries are you thinking of that are inhabited by purely virtuous or purely evil people?
Drows aren't black people, the people who say that are terminally online morons, but sadlyl wotc listens to them so there's that
>Drow are black people
Only perpetually online crazies honestly say this.
>They want more representation
Only ones with chips on their shoulder and grifters say this.
>Only want to be good guys
Famously the NAACP gave their blessing to the film Candyman (the original), because they thought having a black slasher villain in a movie where race played a big role without being racist would be really cool and be a great step in showing that we're evolving as a society.
t. Black Guy
Though maybe I'm an outlier, I used to make Black person jokes as a teenager, and once gravely insulted one of my mom's friends when her kids called me bourgeois and I said "I'd rather be bourgeois than a Black person."
>Famously the NAACP gave their blessing to the film Candyman (the original), because they thought having a black slasher villain in a movie where race played a big role without being racist would be really cool and be a great step in showing that we're evolving as a society.
There is very obviously a difference between having a black villain, and people cursed with black skin being racially evil. BG3 has a black serial killer and nobody calls it racist because there are good and neutral black characters too.
I agree. But we're also talking two different kinds of black here.
Drow aren't cursed with being bix nood looking mother frickers, they're cursed with skin as black as midnight in the forest.
Candyman isn't a shadow monster, he's Tony Todd with a bit of camera trickery and clever uses of set design.
If we were talking about the people of chult all being evil because they're hardwired that way, that could be a racial issue.
But we're not.
In fact, when people from Chult show up in novels, they're typically pretty fricking heroic, and quite a few times have people gawking about how big/strong/awesome they are, which I personally find a bit weird and perhaps leaning a bit too hard in trying to be "anti-racist", but in the southern sword coast they're probably not used to seeing 6'4" gigachads, and especially not chocolate flavored ones.
Look bait aside, this is kind of the irony of the situation: They aren't black.
The Drow don't look like Africans, the Drow look like the whitest of white people with dark (usually blue/purple but sometimes like vantablack) skin, they are never depicted with the actual features of African people, their hair is straight, silvery, long, their noses are narrow, literally just look at them. They're depicted as a sort of gracile exaggeration of white people but with different pigment.
Somehow, people got from this "oh they're black" because there are people who are actually stupid enough that they think the only thing to a race is pigment, like if my skin were magically made white people wouldn't look at me and say "Ah, that's an Indian" (the kind that sells liquor, not the kind that buys) because I look like I'm trying to help you recover your credit card data.
Now I 100% believe that this wasn't racist, the Drow clearly aren't meant to represent black people, but when some idiot brought that up everyone panicked at TSR or whatever and tried to fudge it by making them blue or purple or something, and then also making heroic Drow and this stupid fricking shit--the reaction made it worse, it corrupted the original idea. We're lucky that this all happened 30 years ago so the controversy is old, they won't change it now, they're too busy being angry about the flying monkeys from Spelljammer.
>the Drow look like the whitest of white people with dark
Not really
The Drow look like elves, and 95% of the time elves look weird as frick and definitely not human. And no, is not just the ears, is the eye placement, the chins, the cheeks, etc. Drow look like elves, but purple/darkblue/grey/black period, not like Black humans or White humans
If we're talking Forgotten Realms elves, aside for their weird hands and strange colors, they're supposed to be exceptionally beautiful.
So we can safely assume they have european features.
The controversy is still effecting content today unfortunately. In the D&D movie we were going to have Drizz't but probably due to the 2020 controversy around drow they replaced him with Xenk the paladin. Xenk was a very shallow character who was a rip off of Drax with his autistic lack of understanding metaphors.
Wait WHAT. The black guy who did the walking straight over the rook scene, that was supposed to be Drizzt?
Frick me dude that would've been awesome.
Yeah it would have made a lot more sense and brought in an interesting character. But alas instead we got some no name character and D&D movies will be abandoned for another 10 years and frankly I couldn't care less https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-movie-drizzt-role-xenk-scrapped/
do you actually think the movie didn't do well due to lack of drizzt? it was because the last d&d movie was shit and wotc are c**ts so nobody had faith
the movie was still great, but had wotc not just gone through several controversies about the pinkertons and their game license the movie would have done way better
I think it would have helped ground it to the existing lore better. But I think the biggest mistake they made was in their marketing. They said something like
>We intentionally emasculated all our male characters
right before release. Given the culture war climate and the fact that the film was going to live or die based on white straight males going to watch it they shot themselves in the foot. I'm not even convinced the males in that movie were that emasculated so it was a disaster all around. I think they just wanted to try and get some twitter points and assumed white men would go watch it anyways.
Wait that dude was suppozed to be Drizzt? He isn't a manlet nor has the sharp features of Drizzt
If you read the article (which you clearly didn't) they said they hired the actor to be Xenk not Drizzt. Drizzt was in the original draft of the script though doing the same things but was removed because he was seen to be too problematic.
Allegedly he stopped being Drizzt somewhere towards the end of the writing process. So it was before casting but too late to actually give him a character.
It's not even a situation in which the comparison makes sense in a racist way.
Ah black people, well known for their hyper-matriarchal society, constantly subverting surface-worlders through guile and magic, and also worshipping spiders. When I think of black people negatively, I think of immortal wizards sacrificing babies to their spider god. David Duke, even now, tells tales of the vile tarantula cults of North Wisconsin and their hideous mulatto cannibal origins, things rumored only in the prophetic visions of HP Lovecraft.
Like what the frick, it's one thing if I were to make a race of black ogres who can pick 1d4 bales of cotton with either hand every round and sing SWING LOOOOOOW SWEEET CHAAAAAAARIOT for a +2 buff to all endurance tests. I would agree that that is racist. But this is the situation where like, you depict a race that is dumb as hammered shit, can't do math, and won't eat anything that can feel pain so they're all like super vegans, but then you make their skin yellowish and someone says "wow cool it with the Anti-Asian stereotypes dude."
it's interesting that /misc/tards are totally unable to cope with the racist lore of drow so they have to steer the conversation, gaslight and so on
>PEOPLE THINK DROW ARE Black folkS IRL
nobody believes this and nobody said this
what people said was
>the lore that drow were cursed with obsidian skin is similar to actual biblical stories where black people are cursed with black skin by god
it's not that they are LITERAL black people the problem is that in the making of their lore TSR accidentally made an oopsie reference to real life things real life people were saying that was OBJECTIVELY racist
realizing that this looks bad for them, they changed it, get the frick over it
if you write a story and the main villain is a guy called the "imperial wizard" who's costume happens to coincidentally look like a kkk outfit
people will notice, it could have been completely and entirely accidental, shit happens, but it's still racist intentional or not
now that might make your blood boil (obviously it does because unlike the people at TSR you are a genuine racist and encourage racism) but to a normal person they'll see this and realize
>oh, welp, we made an accident, let's just change that and hope everything smooths over
and then everyone moves on
>but it's still racist intentional or not
interesting.
Ignore him
everyone wotc included is already ignoring you, deluded racist homosexual
yes, do you think...it's not?
racism is an arbitrary value judgement. It cant actually be done unintentionally
you're right it is arbitrary but the line is based on societal standards, not individual standards
from a societal standpoint it's racist hence the problem, understand?
and the solution is simple, in fact it's already done I'm pretty sure in 5e drow were always dark skinned, thus solving the problem
>the truth is bait
not reading your post, go leave and frick off
>nobody believes this and nobody said this
Uh huh. Okay so in actuality yes they did and I was there. You can't lie about this shit to try and retrofit it into your gay narrative bro.
>muh /misc/
Meds. I'd understand if someone went off on a 5000 word tirade about israelites but no, this is a real thing that really happened to real people and we are STILL reaping the benefits of it.
>Uh huh. Okay so in actuality yes they did
Okay no one IN THIS THREAD has said or implied that, and in fact have gone out of their way to make it clear that they were not talking about black drow being literally 1:1 Africans.
And nobody was accusing anyone in this thread of having done that, it was ACCURATELY DESCRIBED that the moronic schizo episode about Drow was rooted in that, which it was.
You are too ashamed and cowardly to admit to your old positions so you default to the new ones. You lost that war so if you want to try and reframe it please do. We'll win this one too. Blow off cuckold.
no, nobody has ever said drow are literally black people
Big lmao, nice try. Yes they did and I was there to see it. You can try to convince children who weren't born yet of that, but it's not going to work on anyone old enough to vote.
>Lose
No I won, and crushed you. You got some sperg banned and assumed wrongly that it was me. I am still here and I humiliated you effortlessly.
No re.
>I was there to see it.
clearly not because it didn't happen, we already outlined why people called drow racist
you have no argument against this because you know you're wrong so you have to deflect and go
>uh...UHHH YOU THINK DROW ARE REAL BLACK PEOPLE YOU'RE CRAZY YOU'RE CRAZY
you have no argument
and that's why you lost
Nah. Yes they did, and I know because I was there.
You can seethe about the fact that your position is based in cringe. I understand it even. But it is cringe, and you are cringe. That was the controversy. And you were wrong then, and you are a cuck now. Why even deny it?
Regardless I have won totally and you have tried (and failed) to have me banned. Do you know why that is?
k, prove it
prove it right now
Which one? The fact that you're analfractured or the fact that you're cringe? Be specific.
prove people were saying drow were 1 to 1 black people
Goalposts lmao.
The entire argument as far as I can tell is that I think D&D is less racist and the racist complaints against D&D are less valid than some 2-3 homosexuals who think it is sort of racist because the Drow are black but also not black.
Literally nobody is saying that they're mad because of Black folk in D&D. Nobody said that. The cuck I'm arguing with wouldn't even accuse me of saying that. We are arguing over a technical, structural definition of what qualifies something as racism.
>no proof
ah, and there it is
concession accepted
you know we can all scroll up and read right? the argument started here
you stupidly replies with
you were then corrected by
you then proceeded to have a mental breakdown for multiple hours
you are a clown
so why did the duergar and svirfneblin get cursed with black skin and white hair?
Short races have no lore because no one gave a frick about them.
or could it be that humanoids who live in the underdark evolve black skin and then some butthole elf wrote IC lore about this being a curse?
I always thought it was like a defense mechanism to hide in the darkness better but I also don't read most of the lore stuff so
If they bring back Underdark radiation. Sure.
That was the reason dwarves were dying out as well. Radiation levels were spiking in underground areas and while Drow were strengthened by it, it was making dwarves sterile.
One could say the Underdark skin tones are a factor there.
But then the radiation got retconned into Faezruss and then got retconned into not existing.
That would make sense in current lore where dark vision is just grey scale night vision. In old lore it was infrared so skin color didn't matter much.
you have zero reading comprehension skills, jesus
>Nta but drows aren't literally black
9/10 times, sure, but then you get outliers like this every once in a while and suddenly everyone's upset again
It's kind of hot, I won't lie. But I think in the current canon, or more recent stuff, Drow had brown skin before it being turned into jet black after being corrupted.
> christgays would in their Sunday schools tell little children that black people are black because they're from a tribe that sinned long ago so God cursed them with dark skin to mark them forever.
I thought that was just Mormons, which Gygax wasn’t.
it's anyone who went to any sort of catholic or montessori school from the 80s to like 2008
Oh, frick off.
Minthara isnt particularly pale, shes about the same as viconia. But the drow in the game are more "purple" than full on black, probably because actually coal black skin doesent emote very well.
>probably because actually coal black skin doesent emote very well.
yeah.... I dont think that is why...
Yes, shes unironically the best written companion. She doesent have much content (lacks a proper questline and such) but her dialogue is pretty much entirely gold. Also her romance is really fun if youre playing the Dark Urge (which you should be, since hes the designated protagonist).
Personally I found her really likable. A lot of the companions struggle with having quite "weak" characters and she avoided that nicely while at the same time not being batshit or cartoonish. Shes also probably the best "evil companion" ive seen done, being both undeniably evil but also still coming across as entirely human and understandable.
This is a lolth neighbourhood traitor.
>Shes also probably the best "evil companion" ive seen done, being both undeniably evil but also still coming across as entirely human and understandable.
Characters like Minthara are actually why I like playing evil PCs in tabletop. Being sympathetic and rational but still utterly evil is fun to play and surprisingly compelling.
It is, but honestly I wouldnt trust most people to play a character like her on the tabletop, its a really thin line between being cartoonish one way or the other, where it can easily end up as skeleton suddenly turning to camera and going "I saw a puppy die and I was sad" or alternatively just a normal person occasionally talking about how evil they are (looking at you, shadowheart).
A lot of the challenge comes from alignment. People often think evil characters have to kick puppies for fun, and so that's how they act out evil characters.
I actually find that neutral characters do more evil than evil-aligned ones. Neutral PCs will rob and murder people for starting fights with them, not even blinking an eye. Evil PCs tend to be too moronic to survive up to that point.
I think in no small part that "extreme perception" comes from the fact that, like with party members in a video game, tabletop characters often only get quite limited screen time to display themselves and make an impression (certainly depending on how your games go).
Nuanced characters often come off as wishy washy and lacking in definition because when you just act like a normal person a lot of the time you cant really compete with Smite McRighteous and Dastardly Dickstab for focus or "screentime".
Meanwhile bhaal is some kind of aztec zombie.
That bane would have all of the b***hes on his dick, who are you kidding?
Bhaal was already 2/3rds way to zombie in art before. But more "rundown fishing villages crackprostitute pimp" rather than aztec.
Bhaal in art before was after his avatar had been destroyed due to retcons in the Moonshae Isles books so he was just stealing corpses and using them to create more corpses so he'd have an endless train of bodies to steal.
After becoming a god again creating a new body should be easy.
The mistake too many people, writers and players alike, is mistaking what evil IS.
Evil is not 'I kill kids for fun, I torture the barmaid because I can'. Thats not really evil, its just fricking mental sickness. Literally unable to stop yourself from being a malicious goblin shit even when doing so will very obviously get you killed. As you say, such characters realistically are too moronic to survive for any length of time. Such characters KNOW that they are being 'evil', and are gleeful about it, which isn't really how people function most of the time. Thats teenager shit, excited by the transgression of doing what your parents told you not to do simply because you can.
Evil is, instead, being WILLING to kill kids and torture the barmaid. Not for fun, but because it gets you want you want. And afterwards, you are not bothered by the things you've done because you considered them necessary. Evil does something monstrous while thinking it did the right thing and never once loses sleep over it.
Bondrewd is how you do evil. Yes, he performed inhumane experiments on orphans that lead to either their death or horrific transformations, but there were things he had to do and doing inhuman experiments on adult prisoners just wasn't as efficient. Oh, so now you're mad about the prisoner thing too? Listen, do you want to learn how the giant cursed murder hole works or not? Cause there's only one way to get data on this, and its not asking politely.
What you described is Lawful evil
Or neutral evil. Bondrewd isn't lawful, he just isn't a moron. He's absolutely breaking the law doing what he is doing, he's just doing it for a goal he has in mind rather than shits and giggles.
The idea that by default evil has to be crazy and stupid to be 'evil', and that evil that can coexist with society is some kind of special exception, is a massive cope by people who desperately want to be able to immediately recognize evil on sight. Its like how before the concept of profiling serial killers, murderers were just written off as 'I dunno, I guess they are just bad people. they don't need reasons to do what they do, thats what makes them bad'. The idea of murderers acting the way they did for a reason was treated as being unthinkable, when in reality it was really just uncomfortable.
>He's absolutely breaking the law doing what he is doing
Beyond LG, lawful alignment doesnt give much of a frick about nations laws, just about adherance to ideals and some form of order (hell on the flip side one can argue the entire reason why CG even can exist is that its signature deals are in practice mostly evil actions done against targets that deserve it for a good cause without going overboard). He has his code, clear goals and isnt fricking about for shits and giggles, that already puts him closer to LE than CE within NE alignment. Just specifically about the single point, overall very much agree.
I wouldnt say thats "all" evil, but yes, thats certainly how you make evil "work". And given the tagential context its also rather fitting because thats basically Minthara to a T (with the "mental illness" evil being the bhaalspawn player character, assuming they indulge)
>Evil is not 'I kill kids for fun, I torture the barmaid because i can
that is literally Chaotic evil described in a sentence though
>This is a lolth neighbourhood traitor.
You can always change your ways
>Get the frick out of here coomer.
Honestly the nudity isn't something I really care about at all. I'm moreso a fan of the just good-naturedness of it. Help people, enjoy life, don't hesitate to stop evil; it's genuinely the perfect faith for an adventurer.
Yeah, it's just a really solid faith I can get behind. It's a damn shame she's so barely mentioned, but I am really happy that the sword exists. If you're an eilistraee cleric like I am in my BG3 playthrough, you don't even have to do the sidequest, the sword just immediately gives itself to you. It's pretty neat,
>You can always change your ways
Im going to bury you alive use you as a nest for spiders.
The best part about being an Eilistraee faithful is that I can defend myself with no moral issue
The best part about lolth is the BDSM femdom
You can do that as an Eilistraee faithful too, just make sure to give nice aftercare and to respect boundaries
You have to submit to sex and gender change if you want to worship her.
>Help people, enjoy life, don't hesitate to stop evil
So Lathander and Sune.
Lathander comes with the baggage of hating all undead.
Sune comes with the baggage of getting kicked out if you stop maintaining beauty standards.
>hating all undead
>baggage
Undead are fundamentally evil
What a mean thing to say about your friend Withers.
Just follow the 3FS Heresy, worship of Lathander without any of the undead hate baggage.
Yeah, those are pretty similar gods. I'd say that Eilistraee has more of a focus on community and specifically the Underdark of course. More of a faith for those who are normally outcast to have a bright and good community to be a part of.
That's just not true. There are ceremonies and such iirc where you can change your sex/gender, and the clergy is loosely matriarchal, but it's in the sense of nurturing and uplifting all people, including men, rather than Lolth's militant matriarchy. Men can worship her just fine
Worship, couldnt be priests.
5e tried to retcon that, but Ed Greenwood was enough of a sperg to have had his ancient book deals overwrite that, as nothing may try to revoke his magical realm of his friends and players fricking the realms greatest prostitutes...
But i guess if he was more moral or cultured to keep the bawdtery out, FR wouldnt exist either and D&D wouldnt have been blessed with the (mostly) mechanically good FR books for 2e and 3e.
Except Lathander is an actual moron and Sune is a vain bawd.
shes pretty hot
Why is everyone in this game a Mary Sue?
"I frick Mistra and used to be an archmage"
"I'm a veteran of the Blood War"
"I'm a living legend and a hero"
"I'm the chosen one"
"I'm the chosen one too"
"I'm a vampire spawn"
"I'm an interdimensional badass warrior"
That's Larian's writing.
In D:OS2 every character was super advanced in their career and famous and super hot shit despite being low level trash.
In Larian writing PCs have to either be the chosen one from the beginning or with grand huge backgrounds, because people climbing from the bottom and learning as they go is hard to plan for if you don't want to take your setting seriously.
>because people climbing from the bottom and learning as they go is hard to plan for if you don't want to take your setting seriously.
Some random hobo killing god in two weeks because he killed enough rats is harder to plan for if you plan to take your setting seriously.
By setting up the protagonists as already special you dont need to explain the fact that they ARE special (something which they inherently and unavoidably are, given how quickly they grain power).
The tadpoles frick your brain. Gale and the Dark urge also got fricked even before the tadpole. Shadowheart was always a scrub, shes just chosen by her goddess(es).
>Some random hobo killing god in two weeks because he killed enough rats is harder to plan for if you plan to take your setting seriously.
If you take your setting seriously such adventures shouldn't take place over two weeks, but rather months if not years.
It doesent matter if its months or years, that kind of abnormal power curve is utterly unjustifiable in a serious setting. You would need to have the game take place over decades or centuries at that point, and some races literally dont live that long.
don't forget they are all that and still they are shitty level 1 characters. That's like Vecna turning out to be a level 1 character
Levels in game don't represent what they represent on the tabletop. They're simply a convenient way to stagger the content. They have no in-universe relevance or meaning. That's why unused companions automatically level up to whatever level you're at when you include them in your party.
>what about your gear though
>why is none of it magical
Four of your companions start out with magic gear from prior adventures: Gale, Shadowheart, Karlach and Wyll all possess items imbued with powerful magic.
Larian separates mechanics and story, meaning that no matter if the Red Prince is a master occultist, learned warrior, and a famous general he's still level 1 when you meet him because Larian just doesn't give a frick about levels, see how Braccus Rex, the supposedly strongest sourcerer in history, comes back as a really fricking unfair level 8 undead while a rock's throw away there are level 9 bees.
Braccus is like level 22? Or do I REALLY misremember the final bossfight.
I especially wonder why they did it that way for their first game, are they not planning for a sequel? I liked how your characters progressed in BGs, one of the ways you felt this progress was how you recruit an amateur paladin looking to prove himself in BG1 when you're low level and when you're higher level in BG2 you recruit his experienced teacher who taught lots of paladins. I haven't played this game yet but it looks like they went BG2 power level with everything from start
Would you plan for a sequel? Game took 8 years to get launched, and they had to fight with Wizards for permission.
>sequel
>Sins of the Father ending
Oh yeah, real smart.
>Gale
Excusable high level start, Myrstra is canon gigathot (also not mary sue, his flaws literally keep biting him in the ass)
>Karlach
Partially reasonable high level start, a barbarian 14-15 can in limited no flight arena confidently fight most devils and demons
>Wyll
Interactions with characters show he is a failure and entirely self titled hero outside of random hobo villages, fitting for a moron that took a deal with a cambion of all things, not even a pit fiend or at least ice or bone devil, didnt manage to go beyond 13th level making him the second weakest party member pre-tadpole nerf.
>Shart
Unchosen one unless you help her, if you help her not Mary Sue, default cucked moon path is half way there to MS
>Mith
Unchosen twice, what little of character arc she has is about her thinking her flaws are her strength
>Astariaon
As generic as vampire spawn get and they litter 1/5th the coast, also fujo bait so far from Sue
>Frog
Mentally moronic yanki whose entire plot is undoing her thinking she was without flaw if you dont kill her or bait her to suicide
Even ignoring the 2 or if true legacy PC is included 3 other characters, its still barely 1 true sue that gets tomboy pass and 2 less than half sues doth not the entire cast make. Most of their writing being insufferable doesnt mean you should apply the incorrect terminology.
>Unchosen twice, what little of character arc she has is about her thinking her flaws are her strength
I assume he meant Durge, the chosen scion of Bhaal.
Minthara is just a drow paladin with bad luck in terms of employment.
Then the anon is even more moronic, didnt read books, didnt play Blood in Baldurs Gate or most likely all 3.
And thats also a very accurate description even if it undermines a bit that her character moments show she very much" argued the deals of her employment" in the first round and unless dick corrected keeps thinking she was right (thus my point of thinks her flaws are arent flaws).
>her character moments show she very much" argued the deals of her employment" in the first round
I would argue its the exact opposite. She doesent think she was done wrong by the hand she was dealt, but her character moments were much show (even beyond her outright saying as much) that her course was largely set for her by her birth as a daughter of house Baenre and that this came with its various caveats and limitations (as well as the various benefits of course).
Shes aware that the life she lived/lives (and will likely keep living for as long as she lives) has a price, and ultimately does desire a life where she can have the things she cant (its the carrot the absolute dangled for her), but she ultimately sees that sort of life as both inevitable and also "the way things are in the world".
Theres a fairly interesting conversation you can have with her early in act 1 on more or less this topic, where despite the various misgivings she has about her childhood/how she was raised she ultimately sees herself as having been priveledged by it.
>unless dick corrected keeps thinking she was right (thus my point of thinks her flaws are arent flaws).
Unless something big occurs at the very end, she keeps thinking shes right in the romance path too, because she is generally aware of what she is and what she believes, she wont stop thinking that ultimately might makes right or whatever, her romance is more about her finding someone she can trust and call an equal (and then microdose on poison so they cant be assassinated if they visit her home).
>is about her thinking her flaws are her strength
??????
>Excusable high level start
gale simp
>his flaws literally keep biting him in the ass
If only the same could be said for Myshty.
No.
funny how no one has posted about the op image being ai
Funny how no one has posted about the OP post being written in English.
There's only one god worth worshipping in Faerun
> be kind and good
> have a fun time, dance and party
> if evil starts shit, end them swiftly and with prejudice
> then go back to partying
I mean, its not exactly a deep ideology but I can see the appeal. Good without being impotent in the face of evil, and fights evil without being a huge sperg about it.
Helm for Muslims
Ilmater for Christian
Bane for israelites
>Bane for israelites
?? Pretty sure South Korea is mostly Christian
>The art director literally asked for bane to look like a k-pop star and make him gay
Dude is coated in b***hes gets laid almost as much as Bhaal did.
Yet we get this shit because WotC decided to virtue signal wit their new art director.
>new art director
its a creepy gay so it makes sense it wants to put fetishes on cards
for me, it's helm
I don't give a shit about Shar, I will literally destroy Shadowheart's pussy. I will nuke that shit, but with my penor.
I hate Forgotten Realms gods.
You should. Pretty much all of them are shit bastards, even the good ones. Even the few 'actually good' gods gets a black mark on them by association.
Literally who?
I hate Karlach background but I like her personality, common sense and spirit. Being a LG barbarian tiefling champion of hell is moronic though
I don't like Illithids being so central to the plot.
They've been rolling the idea of making the squiddies relevant since BG2 and Hordes From The Underdark. We semi-recently had an adventure module that dumps even more illithid variants on the pile and the Absolute Shitshow guarantees there's going to be freshly-converted mind flayers all across the coast.
I legitimately think Wizards is planning on pushing for playable githyanki and illithids very soon.
>going to be freshly-converted mind flayers all across the coast.
Not just that, freshly-converted independent mind flayers.
>playable githyanki
Already a thing
>Illithids
That's fine if it's at high levels.
>Playable gith
Has been a thing since what like 3e? And has been a thing in 5e since MotM
>Playable squids
I find it doubtful that they'll go hard in simping for literal brain devouring parasites. The fact that good illithid exist is meant to be a lowercase-a aberration. Their life cycle depends on wasp zombie rape. It's like the slaad, they'd unironically get cancelled and deserve it if they were suggesting what they do is in any way ok.
>simping for literal brain devouring parasites
just wait till twitter finds a race to latch them into, they'll immediately soft their background, make them the misunderstood starfaring race and make them playable
Nah, they're too European
Shar is the whiny and rebellious teen of gods. Nobody actually likes her, they're just indoctrinated into her cult because they don't know any better.
Spoilers bro :*~~*~~)
You could have just not pointed it out.
Someone literally just said the whole character arc above. it was probably you, even
I don't read threads. What do I look like, a reader?
>Was Shar a good god?
>Worships shar
>NOOOO YOU CAN'T WORSHIP BHAAL WTF???
hypocrite
Create a new setting where alignment is based on physical attractiveness, ugly are bad and cute are good
are you Greek?
>redditbuddy
>hating on baal
i like both him and centri though.
Taste-haver detected.
Yes?
so which God has the coziest afterlife?
I need to pick one for my character, he's a dragonborn so I was sort of thinking Bahamut
LG Heaven is climbing a mountain constantly improving yourself, (Arcadia), NG heaven is one where you just have a deeper and more intense experience of things like physical sensation (in a good way, music sounds clearer, wine tastes sweeter, that kind of thing) and you more or less just chill, and CG heaven (Arborea/Olympus) is basically a place where you frick, fight, and feast all the time and there's no real rhyme or reason to any of it. So since Bahamut is a LG it's mountain climbing for you.
bahamut's domain travels across multiple planes.
Bahamut is the creator of the material plane and thus its his "real" plane. His afterlife is temporary. His afterlife is essentially playing with dragons for an amount of time equivalent to your time on the material plane, your memories slip away day by day and then you are reincarnated
this is also incidentally the fate of ALL dragons regardless of what they do
Actually, in FR cosmology, he resides on Celestia and is a servant god under Torm.
retconned, in 5e forgotten realms he, tiamat and sardior invented the prime material plane and it was sundered into the many worlds that make up the various settings like Toril, Eberron and so on
oh yeah I forgot Fizban's made him a big, important boy
It’s Bakhmut you stupid orc
In Forgotten Realms?
Bahamut is a barely known chump with very little power/influence, so he probably needs to crash at someone else's domain.
Dragons were a genetically engineered slave race in old FR lore, so their power is almost all in the physical world as opposed to Greyhawk making them spiritually significant as well.
No. Shar is actually one of the worst deities I've ever seen and I only realized this when dealing with Sneedowheart.
To wit, every "Evil" God can at least say, in some sense, that their work is necessary and that they are essentially employing means to a good end. Bane is a tyrant, yeah, but I'll bet his worshippers make sick roads. Cyric patronizes the mad, Bhaal is the God of Extralitigious Nuptual Termination (beating your wife to death with a golf trophy) and Myrkul, well homies die.
But NOT fricking Shar. Oh no, Shar wouldn't be caught dead doing something good and useful even by accident, she is UNIFORMLY a massive b***h to everyone, an iconoclast not because the icons are false but because they bring people joy. She regularly torments her most loyal worshippers, not to prove a point or even for fun, I don't think she has fun, I cannot imagine Shar enjoying her wickedness, it strikes me as more compulsive, mindless cruelty.
Lolth is better. LOLTH is better. At least Lolth helps keep the fricking mosquito population down, but Shar? I'll bet Shar is the Goddess of Mosquitos, they're annoying and cause pain and the only good thing they do is support the population of horrible spiders and annoying ass fricking frogs. She has no gimmick, no trick, no cunning angle, she's just fricking evil and she knows it and will tell you openly "oh yeah I'm fricking evil time to die alone b***h" and STILL people will fricking Stan for her, Shadowheart being the most egregious and absurd example possible.
I have never seen a more coherent and well framed depiction of a deranged religious fanatic than her, because she SEEMS like a nice person until you actually get into the meat of what she believes, which is only NOT omnicidal because if everyone died there would be nobody left to suffer, even Bhaal is less evil because every once in a while someone gets murdered actually deserves it, NOBODY deserves Shar.
I thought Shar was the sister of Selune, and a very important deity
Also responsible for the Shadoweave
I'm done with FR after BG3 though, fricking dropped this setting
She is.
And she is.
Shar is basically the christian concept of the devil.
She represents all that is dark and evil and unholy.
She is the lack of warmth and light you feel when you turn away from God.
She is the antithesis to all that is right and righteous in the world.
Her existence is a constant, as until all beings reach enlightenment, there will forever be Shar.
Just in a setting with polytheism instead of monotheism that's a lot harder to sell, which is why AD&D sold it as Shar gave access to better spells and more power than most gods did, as every named priestess of Shar was either insanely powerful or ran entire mafias.
this all gets extra freaky when you remember there's a heretical order that believes selune and shar are the same god with two faces and despite being marked as enemies by both the church of shar and selune the clerics of this heretical sect receive the powers of shar and selune simultaneously
It annoyed the shit out of me that WotC introduced that "all of the heretical cults still get divine magic what could it meeeaaan!"
Especially because we found out it was a precursor to changes for 4e, so odds are someone in the writing room was considering making Selune/Shar the same person, like they did with Lathander and Amaunator despite both of them existing at the same time in previous lore.
I'm done with FR because it lead to a flood of FR secondaries asking lorelet questions, also I didn't realize how pozzed Ed Greenwod was having picked up FR from 2e, 3e, and the novels. Turns out it was a shit setting this entire time.
She is important, but in the bad way. The Shadowweave is like a discount taint from Wheel of Time, she just introduced evil and entropy to the system of magic.
As for the game tbh I thought it was great by the standards of CRPGs these days. I'd like them to make more, but it's hard to be really impressed with the plot of BG3 when you remember BG2 and how over the top awesome it was.
Like, Gortash, pretty cool, liked him, he is not Jon Irenicus. Nobody is Jon Irenicus. Nobody can ever be Jon Irenicus again because David Warner died.
I did Dark Urge, I was legit expecting Irenicus to show up as soon as I figured out what the Dark Urge actually was. That would've been fricking kino.
"Ah. ANOTHER Child of Bhaal," smash cut to credits BG4 2025 baby, no instead we got Serevok.
I honestly feel bad for mosquitos to some extent, because it’s only the females that are bloodsucking disease spreaders. Males are not only completely harmless, they’re pollinators. They help flowers propagate. They do the same job as bumblebees but without even the remotest threat of being stung.
>To wit, every "Evil" God can at least say, in some sense, that their work is necessary
And of course, this makes those gods massive fricking liars. Shar at least has the honesty to be upfront about just wanting to be a massive butthole without trying to pretty it up under the guise of being "useful."
Why not a discussion about Umberlee or Beshaba? Perhaps of Kossuth, Auril, Waukeen or Akadi?
Ah, its because this thread is made by wayward shills who should be on Ganker at worst or at best hobby tourists who simp for Larian's shallow interpretation of the second worst edition of the Forgotten Realms (after 4e's).
Not him but, no one likes the b***h queen, they just like that her priestesses canonically go around in see through skintight garments and splash themselves with water all the time, and Tymora's hot sister is just bad.
Kossuth is about being orderly, taking care of yourself physically, and showing discipline in all things, so no one who obsesses over waifus cares about him (and most people in general would find him offensive). Auril is a b***h. Waukeen is problematic because she spent a decade as the unwilling(?) concubine to grazzt.
Akadi is a literal who in realmslore.
I liked a lot of 4E FR, I thought the Shadow Princes were great antagonists and it finally gave Cormyr a real threat on their borders.
I remember finding it funny that when Tyche split in two it was supposed to be her Beautiful but Evil half and her Ugly but Good half.
Then the descriptions were
>Insanely hot and crazy b***h who you would convince you to leave your wife even though you know she's going to rip your dick off
And
>Tomboy waifu who likes to gamble and party and have loads of fun but is also virginal
I have no idea who this, I just came here for the hot woman, who is this?
you don't even deserve a (you) go leave, it was already obvious there but you just went into a boring tirade
again just ignore him, he'll get bored and return to /misc/
awww, looks like your racist little friend got thrown back to his cesspit 🙂
Yes, lose the argument badly but gloat about moderation siding with you.
But you cannot answer me.
>no you see, by losing I actually won
kek
No no, I won by winning and dominating you homosexuals in healthy debate.
You lost by losing to a sperg who then got banned. We are not the same at all.
>lose debate
>samegay
>get banned
>hop on your phone and declare that you won
/pol/tard moment
>rogue thief just gets another bonus action
HOLY SHIT WHY CAN'T WE JUST HAVE THAT IN 5E
because everybody body would pretty much dip 3 into thief
Reminder, cuckolds. You cannot change the truth. The internet is eternal. You are NEVER going to get to play your lies down. You are NEVER going to make us forget.
Every single thing you did, we remember. Forever. And you will not be permitted to forget. Nor will anyone else.
Forever. As long as you live. I will be there. Yes. You. Fricking. Did. Every minute of every day I will be there. As I breathe, you will die with my mocking words in your ear.
Yes. You. Did.
>Reminder, cuckolds. You cannot change the truth. The internet is eternal. You are NEVER going to get to play your lies down. You are NEVER going to make us forget.
this but unironically, this is why rightoids lost the culture war because all their sins and lies are on full display for everyone to see and with the power of the internet their petty attempts at deflection lose power since people can disprove them on the spot
exactly like what happened in this thread
What is a rightoid? What are you talking about, exactly?
Did you maybe get completely bootyblasted, and need to respond to an imaginary opponent?
>tranime
aaand post hidden
trump lost btw
>I'm not seething you are!
>he exclaims, furiously typing about how much he hates "the Black folk" in a d&d thread for several hours
yes, you're clearly very sane and not mad at all