Weapon durability systems.
Yay or nay?
 It's All Fucked Shirt $22.14 |
 UFOs Are A Psyop Shirt $21.68 |
It's All Fucked Shirt $22.14 |
Weapon durability systems. Yay or nay?
Weapon durability systems.
Yay or nay?
It's All Fucked Shirt $22.14 |
UFOs Are A Psyop Shirt $21.68 |
It's All Fucked Shirt $22.14 |
I'm going to save you 531 posts and 185 image replies:
It depends on the game. Most of the time it's bad. Sometimes it's good. A lot of people hate it no matter what.
>It depends on the game
That sentence has little to no practical information or even opinion. You didn't save me jackshit amounts of posts!
A lazy question begets a lazy answer
Ask a more detailed question for a more detailed response
Simple, no?
Yeah because frick fostering discussions, right?
>hey Ganker(rpg), is someone cutting your skin open to get at your organs good or bad?
>well it depends, it can be done for good or bad reasons
>WOW THANKS FOR THE VAGUE RESPONSE, FRICK YOU
False equivalency fallacy.
Almost always things degrade too fast and are too easy/cheap/quick to repair, turning the whole system into tedium: this is the Fallout way to frick it up.
Sometimes, things degrade so slowly that you forget about the whole system until you get a WEAPON ALMOST BROKEN! UI alert: this is the Dark Souls 1 way.
There's few games that escape those traps.
Fpbp
I played on release at 60fps and I don't get how people could have trouble with durability unless they were hitting walls for the lulz, even doing meticulous full clears between bonfires I almost never got anywhere close to running out of durability.
I dont know if the bug happened to everyone or if it even was a bug, but I distinctly remember using more then half of durability on short runs in merchant wharf.
AFAIK it was a consistent bug relating to jap spaghetti code originally designed for 30 fps only, also caused status effects buildup to progress faster at 60 fps and a few other things.
But there must have been some other bug contributing, because
>more than half durability in wharf
is something I can't explain otherwise.
Corpses.
In every map where the enemy corpses don't disappear if you clipped with your weapon into a pile of them it would "hit" them, potentially multiple times per second, resulting in an extremely quick deterioration of the weapon.
I know because that's how you used to break the meme spear quickly.
Damn that's pretty dodgy programming, not even Bethesda fricked up that hard on that regard.
Bethesda games have the most comical "cosmetic" animations ever seen by as many people as have seen them. i think games wherein whatever divine force controls your characters interaction with the physical reality they exist in had no concept of a slope when creating its kalpa and can have them die from running off them with their legs still waddling cartoon style should have ceased to exist decades ago but here they still are making that shit
Japanese games figured out slopes on the N64
Damn, are you being paid by word count or something?
I don't get this kind of ironic post that's just "say something moronic". What's the punchline?
It's always better to laconic than longwi ded.
no
Wait, are you not?
No, I shitpost for free.
They worked out slopes by Fallout 4 which came out in 2015 lol.
Lol that's silly, guess I never killed enough guys close together to run into it.
Bethesda has fricked up in far far far worse ways: Oblivion enabling character movement before things like gravity and collision detection have finished loading is probably the funniest one.
Hell, even From did much worse with their multiplayer RCE.
This. I take a holistic approach to games, it really depends on how everything works together. These questions begging strong opinions on a particular feature divorced from all context are quite stupid.
>I am le authority of what everyone is going to think and say
Get the frick out.
thread should've ended here
I'd say yay. Firearms are quite capricious little shits, even the notorious AK-47(or it's 5.45 version AK-74) needs basic maintenance after use to not get its compensator rusted to the end of the barrel or to not get the barrel clogged by soot. Gets you some level of attachment in the process, in game as well as real life.
Yes, gear condition is one of the decisive lines you can between actual bona fide RPGs and strategy or action games with RPG elements.
I think my issue with durability is that usually your shit breaks way too fast and it becomes annoying. But if things broke down too slowly you may as well not have it in the game.
I'm playing Kingdom Come and your shoes wear down so fricking fast grom just walking that I'm considering travelling barefoot. Is it realistic for shoes to break down from usage? Yes, but they don't desintegrate over the course of one day in real life.
This is my #1 gripe with durability systems, they're always overtuned. FO3/NV could've cut weapon and armor degredation 50% slower and it would've been fine.
>Losing my equipment because i played too much
Woah that sounds so fun...
Sometimes you have to take a break, go to town...
Yes, it adds tension, decision making and fun variables to an otherwise stale predictable gameplay grind.
I play the game for the gameplay grind. If I want variety, I can play a different game or just do something else altogether.
Or maybe you just don't like RPGs, since their "gameplay grind" resolves numerous systems working simultaneously.
Remember early DS2 on pc? You would lose durability faster due to higher framerate bug. Back then I though this was a feature that forced you to upgrade 2 or 3 weapons at the same time, spreading shards instead of using them all on one weapon. I kinda liked it.
It's busywork, with the point being that it gives more reason to loot things. FO4's weapon modding and scrapping for parts was an improvement to the whole thing.
It's fun busy work that adds immersion.
Maybe not durability perse, but weapon maintaining works well in RPG's.
It just adds another layer to things, something to keep track off and plan around it.
More layers are pretty much always better.
>More layers are pretty much always better.
Tales of Zestiria has a shitload of layers and gameplay mechanics, and most of them make the game worse.
I like weapon durability when it's just a secondary thing that if you don't remember will brick you run, but is otherwise cheap and a non-issue.
not a rpg but the first dark souls had great durability balancing IMO. You could often clear the entire area + boss on one repair. But if you died / forgot to repair you would get boned later. fun yet light mechanic.
The opposite of this would be BOTW. lovely game that I put 90+ hours into. Love the game but that weapon durability is either cathartic or a lesson in OCD hell.
Wish it noticeably affected enemies. I want to shatter rusty bandit armor with a single power attack from a warhammer. I want their bow to snap if they block with it. I want to split a foe's magic armor to lower their defenses and deny them their enchants.
Besides actions games like Legend of Zelda and Rage 2 there isn't much in the way of enemies having breakable gear and even in those games the player doesn't have breakable gear themselves.
Only rpg I remember breaking something is Morrowind when an enemy blocks a lot and their shield breaks. Pretty neat but rare and you can't expect it to happen.
There's also spells and enchantments to break your opponents equipment, which is why I defend the durability mechanic in Morrowind and Oblivion. They're hard to balance right in a game like TES, so I understand why Skyrim didn't have it. It wasn't effective, and Disarm is a good substitute.
Skyrim didn't have it because Bethesda took out most of the RPG elements from it.
If there was a visual representation of weapons breaking down after time (swords get chipped, guns get rusty/cracked) that would be my dream.
Kek, if weapon degradation is a "RPG element" then so is smithing, which Skyrim added.
For every RPG element they added in Skyrim, they removed 3 others.
Give us specific examples.
added:
>a skill tree
removed:
>spellcrafting
>armor slots
>damage types
>faction reputation
>equipment upkeep
>classes
>stats
even comparing Skyrim to Oblivion and Morrowind you can see that for Skyrim they thought their audience was comprised of morons and removed all of the systems they thought might be too confusing for a 6 year old that cant read. Skyrim is an action adventure game
They also removed mysticism. RIP.
that's because after morrowind bethesda only made console games. Morrowind has sould because it was a PC game. Oblivion was always a console game at heart. Playing with a mouse actually felt like a burden on release and skyrim is the same way. The game was obviously designed for a controller. Those fricking rats are the reason things ended up this way. Oblivion was and will always be the true beginning of the end for that fricking company
True and real.
>UI sucks
>THIS IS THE END OF BETHESDA
A lot of things sucked about Oblivion, not just the UI.
Oh yeah, endless busywork or oil, smithing hammer, wheatstone, now that's a proper RPG immersion.
yes, but not egregious as in modern Zelda games, I think Dark Souls, Stalker and New Vegas have perfected the durability system.
>New Vegas have perfected the durability system.
Weapons sure, with some ammo types being stronger but damaging your gun's receiver quicker was cool. But NV's armour system was fricked. Any that wasn't power or Ranger armour broke down to 0% after like 2 gun fights.
TBF it's a post apocalypse what do you expect? Most armor's gonna be shit anyway.
What, am I supposed to believe my leather armor just falls apart because a stray bullet hit all my belts and buckles holding it in place?
Alexander conquered the known world in linen armor. What's your excuse?
my daddy wasn't a king.
They also didn't have to content with firearms or hand grenades back then.
>From the age of five, the Persians teach their boys in three things: to ride, to shoot straight, and to tell the truth. -Herodotus
You sure?
Shoot as in a bow and arrows, you dense motherfricker. Looks like (YOU) don't know how to tell the truth, anon.
>From the age of five, the Internet taught boys three things: to hide, to aimbot, and to constantly lie. -John Titor
>the Internet taught boys three things: to hide, to aimbot, and to constantly lie
Replace that with *Ganker, and (you)d be correct.
Believe it or not, these things predate this website by a fair margin. Ganker is just an extension of the early internet.
The internet was better off without Ganker and social media.
Ganker isn't social media.
hahahha, that's what you tell yourself boy
/soc/ and /lgbt/ would like to have a word with you.
>Shoot as in a bow and arrows, you dense motherfricker
Explain this book then, big guy.
>chud literature
>manly arts=chuddish
interesting.
That is the most boomer cover I've ever seen. Those kinda guys unironically want a police state. Frick that shit.
It's hard to have a police state when everyone can ride, shoot straight, and tell the truth. Sounds like unfounded prejudice due to imprinted associations.
Come again? Everyone in the US has a gun and yet the police frequently walks all over your protests and insurrections. Police do whatever they want with impunity, police violence is at an all time high. Shouldn't take an anarchist to tell you that pigs are not your friends.
US still has the right to protest. Australia does not cause of the coof
>US still has the right to protest. Australia does not cause of the coof
~~*Port Arthur*~~ -> COVID concentration camps
Yeah, you have a cartoonish view of the world. The associations you're talking about make no sense. You just had a reaction to what you perceived as an authority figure or "bootlicker" because they are holding a gun and started spouting off about "chuds". It's really quite amusing, displays the kind of self-neutering that goes on amongst kids like you.
FREEZE
A lot of fancy 10 dollar words for a non-existant message behind them. My observations are true, as is the claim that boomers love sucking up to authority figures. They are chuds. End of the story.
I didn't use a single fancy word, anon. Do you just circlejerk with morons all day? You saw a guy with a gun and threw a fit about "chuds", not even using the term appropriately.
Alexander was conquering when world population was around 200 million.
We're at over 8 billion nowadays. That's 40 times the difficulty of conquest.
Sounds like you'll need even more pikemen, anon
alexander was only stopped by disease, we have advance medicine now. it's easy mode.
I'm probably the only one but I really like the whetstone mechanic in Monster Hunter. To see your character give his sword a quick sharpening before going in felt nice. Anons gonna b***h at "muh busywork" but to me it's those little extra things that make games fun.
I think that this should really be the actual focus of degradation systems. It should just be a little moment where the game forces you to slow down a bit and absorb the environment. It shouldn't be stupidly expensive and empty the player's pockets, the player should kind of want to do it because it gives them a moment to breath, maybe consider talking to a companion or something, all while watching a nice animation between the constant fights.
what value and enjoyment does weapon degradation bring to the player? None. It's just another cause of stress and need for resource management that has no upside.
>stress
Man the frick up, it adds immersion. Too many QoL just turn a game into a cookie clicker theme park, see modern WoW.
WoW was always a cookie clicker theme park. You were just stupid enough to fall for the decorations they put up, and now that they’re gone you see the skinner box for what it is.
don't be like that, isn't it fun to slowly do less and less damage and then at a critical moment you weapon breaks and you're left all but helpless because the game forced you into a single weapon type specialization and you didn't bring a second back up weapon so you die like a chump because you can't run from a fight because every fight is to the death
>isn't it fun to slowly do less and less damage
no, no it's not. and I honestly don't think this is your genuine opinion.
>It's just another cause of stress
A cause of fricking what?
Depends on the game.
Don't mistake depth for busywork.
If the game doesn't have it, it's a shit game.
Weapon exists, it has to be maintained.
Simple as.
Lol why are people so divide on this inocuous mechanic?
Because most of the time it's done poorly and doesn't add anything to the game, therefore some people want to get rid of it because it's pointless (even tho its removal will inevitability break the game in some way) while others like the idealized version of it (which totally works in their heads) and want to see more of it.
It's funny, I don't think I've ever seen people split so 50/50 on something. Usually it's everyone dogpiling on the same shitty contrarian opinion since Ganker is an echo chamber, but this is fascinating to watch.
>since Ganker is an echo chamber
Post sites you don't consider to be echo chambers.
the horrifying truth here is that there are practically only 4 or 5 websites left on the internet that are sizeable chambers of any kind
Fricking DeviantArt and Youtube comments have more balanced discussions than 4troon.
Reddit is unironicly less of an echo chamber than Ganker nowadays
You know that very much. Go back.
>taking pride in being a 4trooner
Yikes.
>assumption and projection
A fatal mistake. You know what else is fatal? A bullet to the head. You should get one. Go back.
>gets defensive when someone insults 3chin
lol
Most people play shit games where a durability system does nothing but add tedium, so they don't know how nice the mechanic can be when it's implemented correctly.
On the other hand it's precisely why so many games insist on having mechanics that are either badly designed or completely redundant that it's important to understand that the mere existence of a mechanical layer doesn't necessarily add anything or make the game inherently better, there's is no universal answer to whether a mechanic is inherently good or not, it all depends on the bigger picture.
I liked it in JA2 but it was annoyong in Zelda.
>I liked it in JA2
It was alright for guns and armor, but the fact that grenade could fail to detonate even at 97% condition was seriously annoying.
>but the fact that grenade could fail to detonate even at 97% condition was seriously annoying
That's laughably bad. High percents should always succeed, but have a chance of doing reduced damage randomly.
realistic but never adds anything interesting to gameplay. some people love tedious busywork but they shouldn't be catered to.
Unless the game is built around survival or really in-depth simulation, it's just pointless bloat. Most of the time, it is just obnoxious and the general idea balance-wise (ie have the player switch weapons instead of stick with exclusively the end game gear) could be implemented in better ways.
do you really have to ask
I guess the problem was really that you couldn't craft weapons not that weapons deteriorate
I didn't mind in Fallout 3
especially makes sense for armor
>the gameplay requires using weapons a lot constantly
Nay.
>the gameplay requires using weapons only occasionally
Yay.
Yay, and repairs should reduce the max durability by a small amount each time.
>going into water rusts your gun
>shooting too much deforms the barrel
>wooden butt breaks off after a while
>metal parts can't get too hot or cold, lest they deform or become brittle
>have to oil and clean it constantly
>need exactly the same model of gun if you want to replace an individual part
>can't take any other calibre of bullet, can't just switch out receivers
>scopes misalign over time
>even with perfect maintenance it can still suffer from loading inhibitions
Guns are a nightmare to maintain. No thanks. It's fine for swords though.
and that's why nobody in real life uses guns right
Outside the US? Nobody does.
I'm fine with it in a game where it makes sense as a resource to manage, like Fire Emblem
I don't like it when its there to add pointless busywork that people eat up, like in FO4 or BOTW, or for a not rpg example RDR2
FO4 had no weapon durability, and it would've been a lot more interesting if it had. The game already allows you to carry 50 weapons with you anyway, having spares wouldn't even have been a problem.
In a dungeon crawler where rationing your inventory space with the equipment you need to clear multiple floors before you descend is part of the game's appeal, yes go for it.
If it's a baby game like souls where you kill a measly 4 or 5 mobs and then reach a checkpoint, and you have an unlimited inventory, it's pointless. People probably won't even notice it's there unless it's implemented obnoxiously like it is in nuzelda.
I don't mind durability so long as I can also do maintenance the weapon the balance it. I hate shit in Fire Emblem where a sword is just done after X uses. Let it wear down, let it even break but also give me the chance to fix it.
>Look we have these good weapons
>I don't know how to balance weapons
>How about we make it so the player can only use good weapons for a limited amount of time because they will outright lose the weapon
This system is dogshit. In games with limited range combat is just an attempt to copy the ammunition conundrum. In games with plenty of ranged combat it just adds another nerf to the player on top of a system that should already do the job.
Worst part of weapon durability bullshit is that it's always a player only mechanic. The player has to worry about his equipment breaking down, the player has to worry about killing an enemy in such a way they don't damage the loot. The AI doesn't give a frick.
Yeah, it adds difficulty and awareness requirements (shoot the arm, not the weapon etc).
Except most CRPGs don't allow you to target specific body parts and even ARPGs might not have proper target location. Especially older ones where armor is one or two pieces. And again the AI doesn't event pretend to worry about shit like that.
>It adds difficulty
>High difficulty games like "Arcanum" "Fallout 3/NV"
RPGs are the lowest IQ piss easy games. 15% of 0 is still 0
>difficulty
Not really, it's supposed to add resource management but in most games it just ends up feeling like busywork. It's difficult to get that balance right
That WOULD be fine if those games actually allowed for the tactical depth to do that, but RPGs are becoming less in-depth with their systems while adding hurdles and time sinks like crafting and shit. It's all the busywork but without the strategy.
Almost never correctly implemented. If it’s done right it’s a resource that you have to carefully manage. If it’s done wrong it’s a pointless, tedious chore. Same goes for inventory management.
It's good for gameplay balance. The morons saying it's bad are the same morons complaining about carry/weight limit for inventories.
I swaer some people just all gameplay restrictions gone and then complain that the game's too easy/forgiving and that "nothing matters anymore". I've seen this over and over.
Its almost like... vrpg isnt one person.
Woah no way!
Yes this place is a hivemind and an echo chamber, shut the frick up you crook.
I disagree.
He's complaining about a certain type of moron. Not insinuating that all posters on /vrpg/ are moronic.
In the FF Legend, the early SaGa, games you had glass weapons with low durability be super strong, or martial arts that got stronger the lower their durability was (representing increased mastery with a technique). Which added interesting wrinkles to the durability mechanic on top of relatively limited inventories for each character. By comparison, spell users could sleep to recover their uses, making them more economic, and monster characters could evolve to get entirely new stockpiles of attacks mid-dungeon, allowing you to clutch out a successful foray even if you were poorly prepared.
So yeah, it can be done in a fun way. I mostly play games instead of simulations, though.
The Glass Sword in SaGa 1 was actually a nod to the Glass Sword from Ultima, SaGa 1 mostly elaborated on that by adding general durability gimmicks and more one shot weapons like the Nuke.
It works in SaGa 1 or 2 because the game's a dungeon crawler, later on in the series they put durability on hold until SF2 and the PS2 game where dungeon crawling became once again the main focus, although they still had various "Glass Sword" type weapons that could be broken by using a specific technique unique to those, most of those were also cursed weapons so the only way to get rid of them was to break them.
there isn't a singular, a SINGULAR game that has ever been improved by weapon durability. show me a SINGLE game where it's anything other than a bore that gets in the way of fun.
Can I game the system?
It's fine as long as it doesn't get in the way of basic gameplay. Durability should be mostly to balance very powerful weapons, but repairs should be overly difficult and expansive either.