>What about an mmo where players contribute to story completion that eventually ends said mmo after a few years?
mmo players are dumbasses and reject this, they refused guild wars 2 fomo living world episodes that were supposed to evolve the world and we went back to shitty expansions that are abandoned
You got to not-China and the not-Beijing cops don't want you there
no, GW2's story is very, very bad. for awhile it basically centered around this mary sue manic pixie girl who was the smartest and strongest person in the universe and every quest/expansion story revolved around how powerful and awesome she was.
Glad I stopped playing right before heart of thorns
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yeah, base GW2 was fine I think. It goes to shit the moment they decided to kill off / replace all the cool supporting cast with a bunch of annoying gay c**ts in between the base game and HoT.
2 months ago
Anonymous
there's this particular class of bitter woman that doesn't understand stuff like fantasy and sci-fi or why men like it and hate that they were gatekept from it for so long, they make characters like that or Rey from Star Wars where they're just powerful and strong because they are. they don't understand characters like Frodo or Luke Skywalker, they just see how important they are to the story and nothing else. it's sad.
no, GW2's story is very, very bad. for awhile it basically centered around this mary sue manic pixie girl who was the smartest and strongest person in the universe and every quest/expansion story revolved around how powerful and awesome she was.
>That hair
Do they even have a modicum of self awarness?
They make a fricking mary sue with the mentally ill feminist clown hairstyle and in no single point they notice that?
No. GW2 is very pozzed. It's right behind FFXIV in terms of pozzed SJW shit.
[...]
[...]
Glad I stopped playing right before heart of thorns
no, GW2's story is very, very bad. for awhile it basically centered around this mary sue manic pixie girl who was the smartest and strongest person in the universe and every quest/expansion story revolved around how powerful and awesome she was.
we were talking about the old living story not the expansion you dumb troony obsessed homosexual
First of all GW2 is old and looks like shit. They need to make GW3.
Secondly, the living world shit sucks. No one wants to shell out for money for something that is supposed to "change the game world" when only 10% of the player base actually cares about the dogshit story.
Third, You will never be a man.
Not designing every facet of the game around monetization for one, since 90% of MMOs these days are Korean. Respecting the player's time more, not piling grind systems on top of grind systems ad nauseum. I want to waste 1000 hours grinding something because I want to do it not because I will fall behind unless I do it.
The thing I loved about lotro was being able to grind out points to buy expansions with. Seems more games should do this. And don't tie it to player to player bullshit like wow tokens where values get inflated and shit.
LOTRO unironically has tons of free content to do these days if you just want to explore an MMO and you'd probably get enough GBP just from playing to buy those adventure pack things they do.
I played it when only the starter areas were free. I grinded out lone lands then they made it free shortly afterwards. Think I grinded 4 or 5 more zones after that. It was heaven for poorgays like I was. I still think it's the best balance of grinding and pay to win of any mmo I played. I had a pretty good black dye business before they made it piss easy to make. Will never forget my lowbie adventures back and forth to rivendell trying not to die. Good shit.
nothing. the reasons why MMOs were popular were the social features, but between draconian TOS cooked up by childless cat ladies who want to insert themselves into everyone else's social circle and Discord there's no way to go back to those days. no one talks in games anymore because it's not worth the hassle of risking a ban or getting cancelled or whatever.
this is an issue of all multiplayer games really and won't be solved until the idea of centralized matchmaking systems for monetization start to go away and player run servers come back, including for MMOs.
grind is fine, it's the point of the genre, it's just how you go about it. stuff like grinding factions in EQ were fine because you could grind as much as you want and all in your own time. it's obnoxious when they became timegated like modern WoW where they knew there wasn't enough real content to keep you logging in so they just tie the stuff you really want to a gated faction grind that will take months to do, or tied to specific types of content no one wants to do. (flying, allied races requiring grinding out world quests day in day out)
Faction grinds would let you access new weapons or zones right? Never played much EQ outside of dabbling with p99. You do those things because you want the cool weapon upgrade or seeing new content. I genuinely think grinding is one part implementation and one part optics.
Grinding should be optional and only used in place of real money transactions. You should never have to grind as your only way to experience certain things in a game.
mostly faction grinding was done to fix your rep. EVERYTHING in EQ had a faction from town guards to merchants to monsters themselves. you could piss off high level ranger/druid NPCs in some zones by poaching animals for instance. different races also had different set alignments they begin the game with like Dark Elves and lizardmen are hated by most everyone else, so if you wanted to go into good cities and use those merchants/banks etc you had to grind out the faction to be able to do so. and even then it wasn't always enough because religion trumps faction so if a higher level NPC didn't like the god you worshipped you were SOL.
so the faction grind is a grind but it also has a real measurable impact on the world and how you interact with it and reflects the choices you made when you created your character. like you could play an evil god worshipping human Cleric and it would change how you go about navigating the city and getting your spells and whatnot. it's not just pointless busy work gating promised expansion features behind particular types of content because the devs need to hit some gay metric Bobby Kotick put on them.
Oh that's kind of neat actually, having to actually think about how you'll navigate a city or handle NPCs if you are playing evil or disliked characters.
shit like that is what the genre is missing, RPG elements. i blame PvPgays more than anyone else, they cry loudest than anyone if something isn't perfectly balanced for their shitty minigames or ganking simulators and force the devs to get rid of any sovl or character and homogenize the shit out of everything
poopsocking world firsting PvErs contribute to the problem in the modern day but PvP homosexuals are what kicked off that kind of shit
2 months ago
Anonymous
PVP gay here can confirm. It always boils down to x is op nerf pl0x. Don't know much about PVE types besides noticing they are robotic turbo autists who get really angry if you break their daily grind routines.
The entire genre has EQ to thank for even existing in the first place.
2 months ago
Anonymous
No it doesn't.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Ultima Online and MUDs actually but EQ was the thing that made the genre blow up
EQ was not the first mmo wtf are you talking about
Literally every successful MMO has been led and backed by former EQ players and developers.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Literally, objectively wrong.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Educate yourself.
2 months ago
Anonymous
You first.
2 months ago
Anonymous
This game was an absolute imbalanced and poorly executed shitshow, but I've never experienced the excitement I had exploring the world ever again in an MMO like I did in UO. I've basically spent my entire life in the game doing nothing but treasure hunting
2 months ago
Anonymous
UO gets points for actually... letting me go do whatever the frick I wanted right away. I didn't get forced onto a rail of doing cancerously shit tasks in a completely artifical feeling world nonstop.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yes, that was the magic. There were days I just wanted to tame some cool new animals and decorate my house (in the middle of the map, no instanced shit), and the other day I would go hunting a group of PKs with my friends, which would develop in a full-blown server war in few hours.
2 months ago
Anonymous
What about the successful mmos that existed before EQ? Why don't they count?
2 months ago
Anonymous
>former eq developers founded ncsoft before making everquest
lol okay
2 months ago
Anonymous
Nobody cared about Lineage outside of Korea and ncsoft didn't become known globally until Lineage II which was 4 years after EQ released thanks for playing.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Ultima Online and MUDs actually but EQ was the thing that made the genre blow up
2 months ago
Anonymous
EQ was not the first mmo wtf are you talking about
Wrong, you stupid hamster homosexual. The point is to go on adventures with your bros. Grinding is for cow-clicker games, not MMOs. Morons like you are why the genre died, do the world a favor and follow it.
why do stupid homosexuals like you that don't like or want to play this genre always barge into threads like these with your moronic shit takes, go back to Valheim and your other survivalslop
>Respecting the player's time more
This is moronic. Because you can say putting p2w respect the player's time as it allows the player to pay to catch up to people who play regularly.
The current shit-stain that is MMORPGS is in a bad state because devs tried to make a game for everyone but a game for everyone is a game for no one
What? You're telling me you dont want to grind for years the very same raid fighting the RNG and when you finally get what you wanted get screwed by the randomized stats so you can start over again? But no seriously who the frick likes this multitude of RNG layers? Feels like some garbage excuse to hold players forever to conceal the lack of content outside of gearing up.
Don't you hear the autists in this thread? You're abnormal for liking varied and emergent quests instead of doing the same exact thing 100 times. That's where the real value is.
I used to be a hardcore grinder back in the day. Coming home from school or skipping university lecture and then 8-14h doing nothing but grinding the same shit for a non-existing chance of getting an item that I would have then to process through even more layers of RNG with slim chances. However even I eventually asked myself why the frick am I doing this coming to the conclusion a bit grind is fine but if the rewards are borderline unobtainable the devs can go frick themself. Literally flipping burgers has more value as you at least get guaranteed money at the end. I don't know if I might interpret too much into it but I sometimes wonder if asians see low drops as "birth right"-equal thing they love so much.
Nothing, they designed themselves into a corner where if you do things too differently people will hate it, and they were never going to play anyway because they are too invested in the MMOs they are already playing and wouldn't want to start over.
Runescape merging the mainstream accounts with the OSRS ones, deleting mainstream RS and resetting OSRS to exactly how it was in 2006 before any changes to wildy or the addition of the auction house.
>Make more sandbox MMORPGs with PvP-focused gameplay.
Every MMO which tried this were dead on the water after a month. >sandbox
Bots and autists will overwhelm any player-driven stuff on the map >PvP
Is and was always a side-dish in any MMO.
The truth is, no one gives a shit about pvp. And the people who give a shit, don't want "fair" fights, they want ambush lowbies and grief others. And pvp content gets old very fast.
>good drama content
What the frick is "drama content"?
2 months ago
Anonymous
Player A farms hundreds of hours of mats.
You gank them and steal their shit.
They start seething and retaliate.
This back and forth is drama content
2 months ago
Anonymous
What actually happens:
Guild A farms hundreds of hours of mats
Organizes to gank players who aren't in similarly powerful guilds
Maybe at some point there is a guild war between Guild A and Guild B. It doesn't matter because you're not part of it and doesn't actually impact the economy due to guilds colluding in price fixing.
Everyone else quits
Guilds quit because there's no one to gank anymore
Game dies
2 months ago
Anonymous
Making them quit is the point, your forgetting the part where you have hundreds of thousands of players to go through and by the time the games dead you would have gotten 5+ years of content. Which by that time another game comes out with a fresh population to mess with
2 months ago
Anonymous
Games like Rust do this better already.
Discord/VRChat do social elements better
Rust/PvP survival crafting games do clan-based pvp better
Mobas do competitive pvp better
FOTM Mission based games like GTFO, Deep Rock Galactic, Helldivers 2, etc are better "weekend with the bros" kind of games.
What do mmo's do better compared to any other genre? I can't think of a single thing other than maybe playing doll dressup.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Agreed, the gamestyle of rust is probably where pvp mmos will trend. Seasonal based progession is a good thing.
2 months ago
Anonymous
High difficulty co-op PvE and persistent worlds over games like Rust.
2 months ago
Anonymous
The high difficulty co-op pvp is covered by those mission based games with higher and higher levels of difficulty like deep rock galactic, vermintide, etc. Also looter shooters cover this.
That really only leaves the persistent world thing like Wurm online, or EVE online or something like that, which honestly are very niche games in the end. MMO's often try to throw some kind of persistent world thing on top of the normal map, as a late game thing for guilds to get involved in to fight over areas that don't affect the normal players at all but it basically always devolves into a roflstomp of one side, because no one wants to join a losing faction. Even in something without land to conquer like WoW, entire servers end up just being 100% alliance or 100% horde.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Those games are nowhere near the level MMOs get to. They could be in theory but they never really are.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Those games are nowhere near the level MMOs get to
That's the point, no one wants to bother with some complicated shit that is also dependent on other people at the same time. Think about hardcore wow where anyone can just decide to frick up your raid, or forget intentionally fricking it up, just fricking it up normally for being a dumbass.
It's super, ultra, mega, niche.
2 months ago
Anonymous
But it's still a niche other games don't handle. >Think about hardcore wow
A very moronic idea.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yes and other games don't handle it because the amount of people who like it is extremely small. How many people really enjoy the part of mmos where some moron can wipe your raid and there's nothing anyone can do about it other than trying the boss until he stops being a moron?
2 months ago
Anonymous
I don't like first person shooters. I want Rust except make it play like a MMORPG.
Haven&Hearth comes close but the devs are idiots who refuse to advertise their game.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>I want Rust except make it play like a MMORPG.
So like, tab targeting, or like, mmo progression?
Part of the benefit of rust being an fps, like another anon said, is because if you're skilled you can really turn the table on unskilled people, starting from zero which gives its appeal. If everything was based around mmo targeting and predetermined stats the gameplay would be kind of shit.
2 months ago
Anonymous
well mmos allow you to do all that in one package. People just enjoy progressing their character and having the freedom to do variety of content
2 months ago
Anonymous
in the context of an MMO it's the spectator sport of other people's shit like how in EVE you have corporations going to war with each other or a guy losing a ship that costs $10,000 of IRL money. or in classic EQ how guilds will fight over endgame dungeons (they aren't instanced like modern MMOs, there is only one dragon that spawns once a week, that kind of thing) and there's all kinds of politics and backstabbing and players breaking the rules to try to kill each other's raids without getting caught. it's fun stuff. instaced, welfare epics and the idea that everyone is entitled to endgame raiding killed most of that though, now the only drama is from streamers not using a troony's preferred pronoun or something.
>big pvp battles
Always happen in instanced or isolated areas. Your average "pvp main" wants to gank people way below his gear and skill-level. They always get their shit pushed in by equals. So frick off with your pvp-focused shit. Any pvp focused mmo ditched that idea in order to survive.
>Make more sandbox MMORPGs with PvP-focused gameplay.
Every MMO which tried this were dead on the water after a month. >sandbox
Bots and autists will overwhelm any player-driven stuff on the map >PvP
Is and was always a side-dish in any MMO.
Sandbox MMORPG is one of those things players THINK they like conceptually, but give up the moment they get their ass handed to them.
Nobody wants pvp in a social game you anti-social moron. People want a place to hang out and talk while doing low effort group activities; like fricking hide and seek or scavenger hunts.
Genre was dead as soon as they started fricking with communication.
In game chat has always been frankly embarrassing. Even MUDs had basic channels for level ranges and classes as the bare minimum.
he's probably one of those gays that levels a stealth class and then goes to the lowest level zone he can flag for pvp and ganks people 30 levels under him and calls that "pvp" lol
i think LOTRO did it right where "PvP" involved players taking control of some other faction in specific instanced areas for it instead of the gay gankfest classic WoW turned into. morons will parrot streamers about how aw dood it's so fun it leads to epic fights or wahtever but 99% of the time you just get ganked by a dude 30 levels higher than you and no one cares because everyone else is too busy raidlogging or AFKing in a city
i unironically believe that to solve the problems with mmos today that we need to lean even further into the industry's worst ideas and break through to the other side
1 character per player limit
limiting the amount of content you can play each day to negate poopsocking
one-time purchase model with cosmetic cash shop
content that is designed to filter bad players, failing the run still counts towards your daily content limit
fully open-world, but with a small open world that doesn't disperse the playerbase so much that it feels dead. dungeons, even endgame ones, should be non-instanced
when i played the horizon XI launch not long ago it was not uncommon for people to play 16-18 hours a day, with the top 10% commonly playing up to 20 hours a day
when people get into a competition of who is going to get the most done each day, you end up in a race to the bottom where only people who destroy their own real lives will win. people who are even remotely normal don't want to play games where that is the accepted common sense, so they quit. the "lifer" contingent that likes the game more than anybody else ends up killing it
More like your autism is what drives away normal players and kills your game. Guilds and raids are the gayest shit ever. >oh look, it's 8 o'clock on a Tuesday or Thursday, time to play my video game
Get a fricking life, bro.
2 months ago
Anonymous
that is a healthy form of boomer participation which is not even remotely related to the kind of psychotic gestalt that tightly woven mmo communities hypnotize themselves into
the difference between an mmo and a normal multiplayer game is that there is a culture that the players share, and that culture is derived from what kind of things the game rewards
i know a non-player like you doesn't really get this because you were never there, but even just limiting people to playing only 12-13 hours a day would be a tremendous improvement to the psychosocial element of mmos
2 months ago
Anonymous
It's their life, you homosexual, they can do what they want. If it bothers you then you can stay up 21 hours. Sounds like a fricking skill issue, you loser.
2 months ago
Anonymous
low-agreeableness zoomer, your response is extremely predictable. you think that nobody effects each other and that everyone is an island unto themselves. if this was real there would be absolutely no attraction to mmos.
for an mmo to be successful it needs to be able to contain and direct people's passions, and passionate people compete with each other, looking up to winners and looking down on losers
when the culture of the game is about worshipping people who ruin themselves, normies quit
without normies, the game dries up and dies
mastering normie retention is about creating a culture of respecting "winners" that aren't poopsocking themselves into a coma
2 months ago
Anonymous
You might be the gayest homosexual I've ever met. You complain about people just wanting to have fun because they aren't competing with everybody but you want those that do compete to be hamstrung so you can keep up with them? I don't usually get this worked up about video games but I would punch you in the face if I knew you in real life. What a selfish wienersucker. I'm glad you'll never be as good as actual gamers.
2 months ago
Anonymous
He's right though. Catering to poopsockers destroys games.
2 months ago
Anonymous
How does allowing someone to play as much as they want catering to a certain demographic? Because hampering play time would cater to midwit homosexuals like you that care about prestige but don't want to put in the time to achieve it.
2 months ago
Anonymous
You'd figure it out if you weren't handicapped, or more likely, an autistic poopsocker yourself.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>telling others they can't practice so you have more of a shot against them
Fricking pathetic, bro.
2 months ago
Anonymous
you sound like the kind of boomer subhuman that buys boosts and then justifies it by saying its part of player interaction or some equally stupid shit
2 months ago
Anonymous
Why do you care what other players are doing? Sounds like the seething whimpers of a poorgay.
>Interact with story >It's boring and bad >Gameplay is still bad
Congratulations, you have discovered why WoW leveling is shit.
How would you know? You don't read it.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>how does community in a multiplayer game affect you personally
2 months ago
Anonymous
Show me on the doll where the bad man leveling faster hurt you.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>leveling
irrelevant noncontent. When you get benched just for being non meta class your or when you have to buy rmt boosts as a new player just to have enough poopsock rating to do endgame content you know the game is pozz
2 months ago
Anonymous
I've recorded months of in-game time in several mmos and have never raided a single time. homosexuals like you are why everything else is shitty because they always prioritize end game for the losers willing to devote their life to a game. Enjoy your scheduled raid times. Try not to get kicked by other people even more autistic than you.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>I do nothing but erp with my fellow furgay trannies for months
should I be impressed?
2 months ago
Anonymous
Do you think anyone is at all impressed when you beat naxxramas?
2 months ago
Anonymous
certainly more impressive than having virtual sex with obese incels pretending to be women in goldshire. I will never understand why you subhumans love giving your dogshit opinions on things you dont even play
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yeah, I never did that. But you have had designated video game times that you needed to show up for or else you'd be kicked from the group. That's much better.
2 months ago
Anonymous
why do you keep replying. You already embarassed yourself more than you embarass your dad when the topic of his "former" son comes up
2 months ago
Anonymous
Because I'm trans and eat poop
I eat da poopy poop
2 months ago
Anonymous
Brilliant reply.
No, he's right, again. Inane no-skill tasks that take only time and not effort are exactly why it's grindy.
is you too, trying to manufacture consensus. You're such a gay that I wouldn't even piss on you if you were on fire. You are nothing to me or anyone else in the world. If you die, no one would care. They wouldn't even line up for you in the game. You'd just be dead and no one would give a shit. Great life you're living.
2 months ago
Anonymous
No I'm not.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Then screenshot it and show the (you)s.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Okay
2 months ago
Anonymous
I have a wife and kids. My friends from 10 years ago have their guild. Nothing you do can shame me but please, keep enjoying such a pathetic life that you have to schedule when you're going to play with your toys. I want to help you guys but I know you deserve everything you (don't) get.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>antisocial autist doesn't understand why group activities have to be scheduled
Good job shooting yourself in the foot.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>group activities with smelly neckbeard autists on the other side of the world
Yeah, hard pass. I have a family now. In 20 years, maybe you'll make officer in the guild. But as soon as servers go down, your entire existence goes with it. Nothing lasts forever and I'm going to love the uptick in suicides once the wow servers go down and people realize they don't have an identity of their own.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>He thinks I'm talking about MMOs
2 months ago
Anonymous
This thread is about mmos, you stupid homosexual. But since you want to go meta, I'll say that coordinating events with friends is gay as frick. When you have a family, you do things with them. Any dad who spends time with friends is a failed father. Luckily, you'll never have to worry about having a family so keep doing what you're doing.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Antisocial autist confirmed.
2 months ago
Anonymous
So antisocial that I started a family. But not you playing your scheduled video games. There's nothing wrong with you.
2 months ago
Anonymous
You're the one who said that you're not spending time with friends.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Because I have a family. Go suck your friends' dicks.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Not an excuse.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yes it literally is. You can't even talk to a woman much less marry and impregnate one.
2 months ago
Anonymous
No it's not. You're going to fail hard at being a father and the best part is you're incapable of understanding why.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Surely the video game addict on Ganker has it all figured out. Enlighten us to your brilliant parenting tips.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>implying video games are my primary hobby >implying I've played much this week >implying it is in any way normal to heap all of your social burdens onto one person
2 months ago
Anonymous
>needing friends to talk about your fee fees
Somehow it keeps getting gayer and gayer.
2 months ago
Anonymous
You're going to get divorced and cry about it to MGTOWs because you couldn't see it coming. It's going to be hysterical.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Keep making fun of what my life might end up like while I call you out for how your life actually is this very second. You're pathetic.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>might
I'm telling you it will because you don't understand what you're doing.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yes, clearly am autist wow raider knows more about parenting than myself. I was so blind to not see it before.
2 months ago
Anonymous
homie you've been blogging in this thread for like an hour about your family, why don't you go spend time with them instead of responding to that guy if you like them so much
or do you want to come show them the thread after you get the last word. do you think your wife's son will be impressed by that?
2 months ago
Anonymous
>you can't watch a kid and shitpost at the same time
You're like an alien race that doesn't understand the lives of normal people and is enraged by it.
2 months ago
Anonymous
There is literally nothing normal about having no friends because you got someone pregnant and bragging on the Internet about how you grind on a bunch of MMOs and are proud of it. You are literally more broken inside than anyone you're accusing of being so.
2 months ago
Anonymous
And yet my life is richer and more fulfilling than yours ever be. Weird.
2 months ago
Anonymous
If you really thought that you wouldn't be here.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>wow servers
I can't even imagine the uproar of people who spend +10 years on that game.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Alright homie.
The period button.
For fricks sake.
2 months ago
Anonymous
no homie
the enter key
you're welcome
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Get a fricking life,
Unironic normalgays still exist?
>What can save MMOs?
Getting rid of the idea that its a game and treating it as developing a living world, which is what an MMO is supposed to be. You can't layer on all these systems that have absolutely nothing at all to do with the game world around the players and expect that they'll actually enjoy their time there.
At a subconscious level these superficial worlds that just act as window dressing for token collection and leveling systems cause an uncanny valley reaction the player isn't conscious of. As soon as they've gotten the carrot on a stick they suddenly become aware of it, that they've been bamboozled, hoodwinked. Having a shiny carrot to play with in a world that's so unconvincing and fake means it has no actual value and is worthless. So the game bleeds subs like crazy until the next patch introduces bigger and better carrots.
Players who insist they like this model are really just the same as californian hipsters that insist they love kambucha even though its proven a disgusting sham time and again in blind taste tests. Players simply do not know what they want from games because they don't even have enough sense of self to develop real tastes and preferences, only superficial and hollow narcissism.
Give them an MMO they'd actually want to live in if it was real and they'll enjoy it more than anything they claim they would. Human delusion can't fight genetics for very long. All it takes is someone with the fricking balls to develop a game like that.
>Getting rid of the idea that its a game and treating it as developing a living world
yeah, shit has not evolved in more than 20 years
it's still Everquest
Uh, excuse me? Final Fantasy XIV currently ranks as the world's top MMO, and with over 30 million players, is one of the most-played online games right now. It's become a legitimate cultural phenomenon having references in many other games and TV shows. FFXIV has the best community of any online game with more mods than Skyrim and is making record profits for Square Enix. The MMO genre is back and the only ones complaining are from WoW.
The definition of that one image I see being posted on Ganker every now and then where they guy posts a character before and after the mods. He DMs the person saying something like "Damn you looked cuter before the mods" and the person says "Frick you"
It amazes me people MOD their game to make the characters looks far worse...
(Btw if someone has that screenshot please post it here, I should have saved it before but I forgot)
Uh, excuse me? Final Fantasy XIV currently ranks as the world's top MMO, and with over 30 million players, is one of the most-played online games right now. It's become a legitimate cultural phenomenon having references in many other games and TV shows. FFXIV has the best community of any online game with more mods than Skyrim and is making record profits for Square Enix. The MMO genre is back and the only ones complaining are from WoW.
people pay $15 a month to play second life, when they can play it for free
XIV has something called MARE which lets you share a link and anyone with that link can see the mods of everyone who has the link
at least, i think that's how it works. i haven't played XIv in like 2 years.
Nothing. MMOs succeeded because of what the world and internet were like in the 2000s. Everyone is a datamining tryhard min-maxer now and massive world's with online play are no longer a novelty. Asking how to save MMOs is like asking how to save the horse as our main method of transportation. I'm so fricking happy I got to experience wow during the launch of TBC, it was a truly magical experience, but that world is gone.
MMOs would benefit from moving away from being dedicated RPGs and towards a game platform and design system like Roblox. The RPG part could be subgames.
But too many publishers have nostalgia goggles for wow's original success so they're not willing to risk the kind of investment the game would initially require to compete with roblox.
It would be easy money for microsoft, amazon or meta but their leadership is a chain of incompetence.
New World is the best currently active MMO and no one plays it. That should tell you enough about the MMO audience, they don't want good games just slop with cute looking characters so they can roleplay
the fun of MMORPGs is the social aspect and discovering the world. the social aspect has been killed by discord and discovering the world has been killed by the fact that everyone in modern gaming is trying to be 100% optimized and must do everything the most efficient way. games are solved basically the second they come out
we'll never go back to the good old days of vanilla wow and before where nobody had a clue what they were doing and playing on shitty internet which made everything more challenging/fun
>the fun of MMORPGs is the social aspect
As applied to a game. >and discovering the world.
No. There are MMOs where I did not give two fricks about the world I was playing in but still had fun.
>the fun of MMORPGs is the social aspect
As applied to a game. >and discovering the world.
No. There are MMOs where I did not give two fricks about the world I was playing in but still had fun.
just make it a law that a proportion of profits from a mmo must mandatorily be dumped back into the mmo so the publishers dont constantly frick you over by taking your 'support' and putting it into mmoslop2:the_re_cashshopping to make you paypig all over again.
it's hilarious because this is the exact problem with FFXIV for all the success it's had as the new leader of the genre, all that money gets dumped into other Final Fantasy games like XVI that bomb because no one working on them likes Final Fantasy or actually wanted to make a Final Fantasy game.
it happens to every 'good' mmo. it makes big money, then that money magically disapears into shitty projects the company thinks will make even more money, then they pretend they dont have to make good content for their money maker because its a money maker and their players are all addicted drug addicts and OOPS everyone quit, guess they just didnt like that game for no reason tee hee.
Nothing, they've already been replaced by different genres that cover the different aspects of mmos that people played them for because they had no other choice. Online world to hangout in? VRchat. Online skinner box? Tons of gacha and live service games for that. Online co-op with random people? Plenty of games. Once the novelty wore off and other games popped up that had the aspects that people liked, people moved on and the genre died off.
Ghostcrawler (Greg Street) is currently making an MMO that blends WoW with a survival crafting game, there are "red shards" which are conventional MMO instances with static environments full of players and "blue shards" which are like Minecraft servers with proc-gen environments. I hate to admit it but it's probably the way forward.
Modern MMOs being reduced to "everything that isn't endgame is a waste of time" is what really killed the genre. The moment a new MMO releases 90% of the world space and content in it is instantly outdated because you can only support endgame functions.
Maybe if you're autistic. Raids appeal to the sweatiest losers ever known to gaming. That's why they're prioritized, because the sweaty morons are the ones who will show up at the same time every week to play. It's people like you that made zones boring in favor of raids.
You only consider zones to be a grind because you never read any quest dialog at all because you're an autistic moron that only cares about progressing.
I consider the WoW model of zones a grind because they're uninteresting, unengaging bullshit, have been since day fricking one, and quests make it even worse. Reading quest text doesn't improve shit.
2 months ago
Anonymous
How would you know? You never read it.
2 months ago
Anonymous
How would you know? You've never played a game without them.
I literally played MMOs before quests were a regular thing, let alone how you progressed. They were almost always bad and a grind back then too, dumbfrick.
2 months ago
Anonymous
No one cares. You think you can compare call of duty to pacman next, dipshit?
2 months ago
Anonymous
>you only think zones are grindy because you don't read quests!!! >no I played before quests were a thing >NOONE CARES
Shut the frick up moron.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Compare pong and fortnite next. You're so fricking stupid, man.
2 months ago
Anonymous
You're moronic. MMOs are barely removed from the days of Everquest in terms of how they operate.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Except for quests, apparently. Compare baldurs gate 3 with fallout 1 next.
they're a grind by definition because WoW devs made them the primary way to level so like 80% of them are just inane filler garbage, go bring me 8 drops from the mobs we populated in this area type shit.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Then every game is a grind, you stupid butthole. By definition games are a way to kill time. You're stupid.
2 months ago
Anonymous
No, he's right, again. Inane no-skill tasks that take only time and not effort are exactly why it's grindy.
2 months ago
Anonymous
And you only feel that way because your moron autistic brain doesn't want to read and get into the story. You just want to ding and move on. The problem is your fricking brain.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Story never, ever, EVER makes bad gameplay worth it. The problem is you making excuses for shit design.
2 months ago
Anonymous
And how would you improve it, master of game design?
It's funny that you think MMO quests have ever made an interesting story.
>don't interact with any story, just collect your bear asses and leave >Why is this game so boring? >shockedpikachuface
2 months ago
Anonymous
>And how would you improve it, master of game design?
Never take a single fricking cue from MMO quest design.
2 months ago
Anonymous
And what game would you say has good quest design that you'd like to see implemented in mmos?
2 months ago
Anonymous
Baldur's Gate 2 is my gold standard for RPG quests so that.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Though I suppose Arcanum is better at them, now that I think about it. It's just that the actual gameplay of Arcanum is rancid dogshit and makes that pointless.
2 months ago
Anonymous
And are you smart enough to understand why that doesn't work in a game with thousands of player characters? You're just seething because you don't want to interact with the story and see it as one fetch quest after another. Mmos are about making your own fun. I'm sorry your brain is broken and you can't do that.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>And are you smart enough to understand why that doesn't work in a game with thousands of player characters?
It does though. What it doesn't do is pad sub numbers by addicting subhuman filth. >You're just seething because you don't want to interact with the story
I am refusing to interact with the story because it's consistently shit. On the rare occasions it's not it doesn't improve the gameplay whatsoever. I'm sorry for your disability that allows devs to jingle keys in front of you and distract you from how bad what you're playing is. >Mmos are about making your own fun
Congratulations, you now know why UO was better than nearly every MMO that came after it.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Your brain is fricking broken. It's like you're complaining about your house always being hot but you refuse to turn on the a/c. For someone who thinks all mmos are trash, you're sure seething enough to keep constantly posting about it. Now why do you think that is?
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Your brain is fricking broken.
No, yours is. You literally do not understand why MMOs are designed the way they are. It's not an engine or medium limitation. >For someone who thinks all mmos are trash,
I don't, though. I think the questing experience is universally trash. Sometimes at the end games stop forcing that on you and give you things to do that require coordination and a level of skill so they stop being shit.
2 months ago
Anonymous
It's absolutely broken because you're obviously too moronic to understand that the devs prioritizing end game bullshit for homosexuals like you are why zones become lackluster. You can get your social interaction without dealing with 40 autists just itching to kick you as soon as you make a mistake. Raids are the gayest shit imaginable and always will be.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Zones didn't 'become' lackluster. They were lackluster from the moment the design intent changed from 'place you go to to do the thing you want' to 'place you must go to to do a bunch of really boring bullshit so you can eventually do the thing you want' and that happened long before MMOs prioritized endgame.
2 months ago
Anonymous
That's literally your broken brain on display. I've been trying to tell you that only moronic autists care about end game content more than the rest of the game. You are fricked in the head, that's why you can't enjoy it. You see it as a chore to get where you want to go as opposed to a journey that brings you there. Your mind is fricked by constant overstimulization.
2 months ago
Anonymous
It IS a chore. It's always been a chore. It is literally all on you that you get joy out of unskilled timewasters.
2 months ago
Anonymous
So you're somehow better because you devote even more time and effort into these games while not enjoying it? Yeah, that sounds like a totally reasonable thing to do. I'll go one further. Not only have I never raided, I've never been max level in an mmo. Not one single time because the higher up you go, the more autists you have to deal with. Case in point, you.
2 months ago
Anonymous
You literally do not understand why MMOs are designed the way they are. Let me explain this to you in words your pitiful autistic brain can understand:
Questing and MMO zones are designed the way they are because there is a large contingent of players who will get addicted from doing small repetitive tasks. This increases player retention. This also strongly correlates with autism.
2 months ago
Anonymous
So playing a game and enjoying it is autism but running calculations, meta gaming and playing at set times every week is what well adjusted people do? Is that your argument?
2 months ago
Anonymous
It's not an argument. It's literal, straight from the horse's mouth fact.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>straight from the horse's mouth fact.
That's some bullshitting horse right there
2 months ago
Anonymous
that's putting the cart before the horse. MMO gameplay was simple and repetitive because of technological limitations. eventually when games started making lots of money, kosher sociopaths figured out all these little psychological tricks and began designing content around pumping metrics like that.
in Diablo 2, teleporting to town has a casting time so you can't just TP back to safety at the drop of a hat like say when a boss is kicking your ass or a pull goes wrong.
in Diablo 4, teleporting to town has a casting time because their player metrics are better that way. that's why in one of the first patches for D4 they made teleporting to town take like 2 seconds longer. just making the game more annoying because those two seconds for every TP will add up across the entire playerbase and make their metrics look better.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>uses Diablo 2 for a counterexample >A wrong counterexample
D2 was one of the first games designed with any of this in mind by the devs' own admission, even if it was limited to loot, and TP scrolls are instant.
2 months ago
Anonymous
wrong
2 months ago
Anonymous
Boot the fricking game up. TP scrolls are instant and if the portal isn't blocked you can click it instantly to TP back. You'd know that if you played the game.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Interact with story >It's boring and bad >Gameplay is still bad
Congratulations, you have discovered why WoW leveling is shit.
2 months ago
Anonymous
It's funny that you think MMO quests have ever made an interesting story.
2 months ago
Anonymous
after cata 90% of the story in these things is "oh no a thing happened i need 8 boar asses okay thanks for the boar asses here's the next quest hub where you go collect more boar asses for me"
after shadowlands the story became "oh no a thing happened i need 8 boar asses btw im gay and trans"
2 months ago
Anonymous
>90% of sports is trying to score a goal >we need something new to keep it fresh, maybe more romance options!
as opposed to the thrilling high skilled gameplay raids provide like
>use the exact same spec everyone else that plays your class uses because youtubers figured out it's the most efficient spec >use the exact same rotation everyone else that plays your class uses because youtubers figured out it's the most efficient rotation >don't stand in the glowing red circles of bad stuff
The issue is it's a self-fulfilling deal. Community congregates towards endgame content because a game doesn't focus on the midgame. Future dev see this and make their game with an endgame focus. Repeat again with the next future dev. Repeat again with the future dev after that Then another future dev tries to have less of an endgame focus and the game does badly because players have been conditioned to only care about endgame. That then reinforces the notion that players only care about endgame.
leveling content IS the game. "endgame content" is just raidlogging and fighting the same static encounters over and over again. this is another issue with MMOs today.
which is why they suck, yes. they all copy the WoW TBC-onwards formula of making 90% of the game irrelevant time wasting fluff and focusing entirely on the last 10% of the content. it's why they're so boring and unengaging and why older MMOs that didn't do this are still so popular today.
You say that like vanilla wasn't boring and unengaging while leveling too. I fricking HATED leveling in it and EQ.
2 months ago
Anonymous
then you don't like RPGs, you want to play some other genre with no progress where everything is handed to you immediately. try an action game or something, this genre isn't for you, let alone MMOs.
2 months ago
Anonymous
I like RPGs more than anyone you've ever met. That's why I have zero respect for bad games that force me to grind.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>i love a genre about grinding more than anyone you've ever met which is why i have zero respect for a genre that makes me grind
ok
2 months ago
Anonymous
RPGs are not about grinding and you do not understand the genre if you think they are.
2 months ago
Anonymous
yeah all the numbers and progress are about as important to RPGs as jumping is to Mario or shooting is to Doom, i am very smart
2 months ago
Anonymous
Those aren't linked to grinding anywhere outside of bad RPGs, early RPGs before anyone had any idea what the frick they were doing, and MMOs.
2 months ago
Anonymous
RPGs are not about grinding. They are about emulating the tabletop RPG experience, which remains the purest expression of the genre. D&D players do not tell you to grind levels to "catch up" if you join a table mid-campaign.
2 months ago
Anonymous
you're talking about CRPGs, a completely different genre, this thread is for MMOs. why can't you morons read the OP before you bungle into the thread with such moronic posts
2 months ago
Anonymous
Someone should make a CRPG with action combat that is massively multiplayer. What would we call such a genre?
I would like to see an MMO without leveling, just horizontal progression where you unlock new builds and playstyles to fit niche roles. Everyone would be able to pick up the game and play together without needing to grind and catch-up.
Guild Wars is pretty much the case study in horizontal progression. However, I don't think you can just keep adding skills forever - it just turns in to power creep when you keep trying to one-up the old stuff.
GW1 and DDO had the right idea, but geared it towards a smaller group of already familiar players who would then tackle content in co-op fashion.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Wasn't the only "massively multiplayer" bit of DDO the hub city? I could've sworn everything else, from the encounters and dungeons to the overworld, was instanced to your four player party.
Elden ring but mmo = evolution of the genre
even fricking skyrim but online (f76) is more fun that wow (inb4 newbie tourists still listening to internethistorians outdated shit opinion)
>got into ffxiv >everyone just hanging around in this one area in one of the main cities >standing next to each other not talking >world is barren of all players >can walk around for hours without seeing another player >this is the 2nd most popular MMORPG
The genre isn't in the decline, ites dead.
Free and open source community projects. The state of the genre is defined through the common consumer denominator, steering development toward profiteering and retention treadmills
Design content around an average player and not the top 1%. When the only meaningful stuff to do in your game is something that requires, at the minimum, 8 people and hours of preparation, I'm not gonna play it.
Vast majority of people play either solo or with a small group of 2 to 3 frinds. Make content around that and also try to "force" natural socialization between players.
>try to "force" natural socialization between players.
you are going to get a bad experience like you cant even believe when you LFG into parties of people whose culture is completely incompatible with your own. this isn't 2002
Maybe "force" was a bad word, but simply make it so that people naturally team up as they play since it benefits them and makes it fun. Fill the world with group events like the ones in GW2. The way people (sometimes) coordinated was a perfect example of how it should go.
insofar as passionate players see the challenges of the game as a task to overcome as quickly and thoroughly as possible, whatever is beneficial behavior to players itself will be mined out and duplicated en masse without any of the associated behavior that you're trying to encourage
when you are playing with people who are hardly literate, when you're playing with people whose culture is to loathe reading and hate people who type, when you're playing with people who are from china and see your english as a rude form of intrusion in their community, you will be very happy if you are able to behave like a soulless robot by joining the group wordlessly and having everybody fill their roles until the loot appears and the party instantly dissolves
an mmo without a common culture cannot provide the kind of impromptu socialization that made mmos tolerable in the early days
In such a case, the genre is doomed and should just die.
I will fully admit I was never that much of an MMO player, but I always liked the idea of a shared word in which people can play together. Sad that such a thing seems impossible nowadays.
i'm playing a single player WoW server with player bots that's pretty fun. it randomly generates bots that run around the world you can invite to team up for quests but it can also pilot your alts, so you can create and build up an entire WoW party from scratch. some kind of AI stuff to influence their behavior/flavor, even give them funny character things to say while they cast spells or rest would be really neat. or have them respond to ingame events like holidays and whatnot.
also holy shit i hope the stupid homosexual that fricked up the captcha gets raped
One of the biggest issues with MMOs these days is that everything gets datamined and everything gets min/maxed and has guides for everything, before things even come out.
The only way you can solve this is for someone to invent tech that enables streaming of every asset in the game, so that data isn't even inherently available to people. And then you combine that with regular enough updates and/or procedurally generated dungeons and bosses, where it draws from like a pool with 1000 different layouts and 1000 different bosses with 1000 different abilities, so you can never know what exactly you will face, and you actually have to adapt on the fly.
Oh frick I just had an idea: >mobile >server/room based >players can create their own "server" and rooms on the server and decide what spawns ( devs balance game by tweaking spawn and drop rates ) >autobattler combat system >in depth character building ( think PoE ) >robust support for chat, images, videos in the in-game chat, just like Discord >players can set their world permissions, just like Discord i.e. public, invite only, PvP enabled, full loot PvP, etc
Basically transform discord into an mmo. The idea is that people idle in the game and "play it" and talk.
It's absolutely awful but I bet people would play it. Just give it a good character creator, transmog, and weeb aesthetics
>Basically transform discord into an mmo. The idea is that people idle in the game and "play it" and talk.
This has already been done many times before. Habbo Hotel was basically this, for example. Club Penguin was another one.
MMOs mostly sucked wiener, the main appeal was just a good way for neets/neckbeards to socialize. That niche has largely been filled by other games/things like discord, so there isn't that innate appeal anymore, and thus they inevitably flop.
Beside the manifest problem, there's also the fact that the major MMOs like wow/ffxiv moved more toward being lobby games/raidgay games than as actual massive, overworld focused RPGs.
bring back inconvenience. people didn't realize how much community building and putting effort towards something mattered when you had road bumps along the way. I forgot how many times I chatted with my guild during /oom downtime or automated travel that would take minutes. you cannot be 100% engaged all the time.
that's why Everquest had stuff like boats taking an hour to go to and from or medding taking a long time, with the need for grouping that's where stuff like socialization would happen. but that won't work now because of SJW net nannies frothing at the mouth for any reason to get other people banned from games and stuff like Discord. no one wants to socialize in games now, too troublesome and risky.
Desire to create a virtual world worth exploring and playing in, instead of a Skinner box designed for maximum engagement and microtransaction revenue.
>World gets randomized every month >World: Biomes, dungeon entrances >There are classes specialized in overworld >There are classes specialized in dungeons >Dungeons are randomized every time you enter them >Dungeons have stealth/puzzle/etc segments >Overworld has monster hunter-tier monsters which can be tackled with said specialized classes classes
I have tons of ideas for my dream mmo, list would be too long.
MMO quest-based story progression:
- Kill mooks
- Kill stronger named mook
- "Hero, their treachery runs deeper than you know!"
- Kill elite mooks
- Infiltrate mook dungeon
- Kill mega boss of all mooks
repeat
come up with something else for your MMO that isn't an assembly line leveling experience that builds up to an endgame that consists of grinding raids for 0.001% DPS upgrades and dressup
get rid of the auction houses
trading post already crashed and burned in OSRS and the forums are ghost towns so people would be forced to *gasp* interact with other players
In not wasting my time trying to get people to trade me. Spent two hours for one item like I did in path of exile and the grand exchange in old school runescape should be how all games are and not action houses.
MMOs are simply not for you then. They have to go back to No Life Kings as their audience and most of the issues will fix themselves.
I'm 2079 total lvl with quest cape but I should have expanded. I don't like things that take me out of the gameplay loop. I want to play the fricking game not waste my time trying to get an item
2 months ago
Anonymous
ah, a poopsock
got it
2 months ago
Anonymous
[spoilers] Wasting time getting an item from other players -is- part of the game. It's a simulated world, not a cookie clicker [spoilers]
Sadly, they will never go back to that because too many normies who will cry "respect my time!! You don't understand, the game has to respect me! You have to let me play your game how I WANT."
Bring back player stands.
I forget what mmo I would play but I would set up my stand when I went afk and come back to my stuff sold. Or if I was lucky enough I would see people walk up to my stand and buy stuff or ignore it.
Ragnarok Online is the big one I can think of but lots of KMMOs had bazaars where you could list items with a sale price and be afk. Had a whole class dedicated to that too.
Nothing. Games are meant to be played and either "pushed as far as possible" (arcade/hi scores) or "completed" (modern gaming/completion of story/100 percent completion for the hyper autists). MMOs are inherently flawed in their design since they are designed solely around "retention" (subscription model, get people coming back no matter what) and as such are not enough like games but more akin to work. This hijacks your monkey brain into a dopamine release that it can't really get from other sources, because not only are you tricking yourself into easy entertainment and video game feedback loops, but you also get the bonus of doing "work". It's equally empty and satisfying.
MMOs were made solely with the purpose of keeping as many people paying for the opportunity to keep doing things, over and over, to whatever end they might deem (raids or ERP or whatever else people do nowadays). Not a single one that has any good content isn't overshadowed by the grind. The grind is what makes them, but because they are designed around the grind, they end up being nothing more than grind. They don't have substance beyond tricking the brain into feeling like it is doing something meaningful. It also explains why they are rife with so many neets and trannies; that level of grind can give even the most empty lives some sort of meaning. For anyone who doesn't work. you'll go insane (I don't mean waging, I mean meaningful (to you) work). We already know that troons are largely autistic, and it's another bonus layer for them to live out their wish fulfillment and satisfy their AGP fetishes. Not to mention the added levels of grooming (which is their favorite pastime and how they reproduce) made possible by today's gaming climate of discord and in-game pandering.
All of that said, sure, parts of them can be fun. But they bank on your nostalgia for better times (if you're older) or your instinctual need to belong/follow trends (for the zoomies).
Why hasn't someone made an MMO that's basically just dungeons and raiding?
No leveling process. No "you have to be level 15 before you can enter the first dungeon, then get access to a new dungeon every 5/10 levels after). You go straight from simple dungeons to complex dungeons.
Have hero unit bots that have specific behaviors and AI for people who wanted to play an MMO alone.
That way you can balance the game entirely around party based gameplay, rather than having to worry about "solo" experience.
Multiplayer games exist, MMOs are for a certain "feel."
These people want to "feel" like they're performing meaningful work. The grind is baked into the appeal for them. They are tricked by our society and by devs who take advantage of their need to feel fulfilled via work.
>completely ignoring the other half
Tab target is clearly not the issue here. Bland mmo gameplay where you wait for cooldowns to refresh and press buttons is absolute shit. It's why xenoblade combat fricking sucks and I'm tired of people acting like it was ever good.
most who still play mmo's nowadays have played since they were in middle school and it's why your average player is in their mid to late 20's
all they can do now is attract other players from other mmo's, like how xiv did with wow
every fricking game nowadays being a live service and having a dumb battlepass is what killed mmo's, they realized they can keep their playerbase not by constantly adding new shit, but instead have people pay for the privilege of obtaining turds with different coats of painting by playing
You'd need to somehow kill all datamining/metagaming which is probably impossible.
Make better combat than the usual tab targeting, if people can't play it on their dialup then oh well.
Actual significant differences between classes instead of heavily overlapping within the same role.
Fair that impossible isn't the right word but I can't see a way to do it that wouldn't be total dogshit in practice >Make everything serverside, game runs like shit >Make everything random, game is a mess
>You'd need to somehow kill all datamining/metagaming which is probably impossible.
It's not impossible per se, but it's probably hard to do. Should be very possible though, because WoW already has a very simple version of streaming assets. I had the same idea as you here
One of the biggest issues with MMOs these days is that everything gets datamined and everything gets min/maxed and has guides for everything, before things even come out.
The only way you can solve this is for someone to invent tech that enables streaming of every asset in the game, so that data isn't even inherently available to people. And then you combine that with regular enough updates and/or procedurally generated dungeons and bosses, where it draws from like a pool with 1000 different layouts and 1000 different bosses with 1000 different abilities, so you can never know what exactly you will face, and you actually have to adapt on the fly.
People are gonna shit on me for this. But I think they should drop the sub-model entirely and focus on making frequent events that encourage casual group play. Just make an MMO genshin/second life minus the gacha. The endgame raidgayging is always the worst part of current MMOs.
It's not about the skill, it's about the attitude. You don't want internet-café south-americans and asian shit in your game.
>else the game would be flooded with shit-tier people
Are you implying WoW isn't filled to the brim with them already? The game has the worst community in gaming.
I agree with you but without the sub, it can get way worse, believe me.
>Attitude
What type of attitude are we talking about here? I've had people in FFXIV where I suggested to someone to not stack with the group if they have an aoe marker, and was proceeded to be called toxic.
Well, if they want to charge a sub, they better release content more than every 6 months that's only fun for less than a fricking week. WoW's patches are the worst content any live service can shit out.
>else the game would be flooded with shit-tier people
Are you implying WoW isn't filled to the brim with them already? The game has the worst community in gaming.
Return to old form and removal of casual pandering. MMOs used to be amazing because they weren't just a fantasy world you could lose yourself in, you could literally LIVE in it and all your grinding and time spent getting gud would pay off by giving you more "power" in the MMO. It was escapism perfectioned. But nowadays, MMOs are filled with garbage microtransactions and made deliberately piss easy to appeal to as broad a playerbase as possible, which effectively ruins the whole point of an MMO. When there's nothing out of your reach anymore, there's no escapism. Then it's just another participation sandbox. The thing is; unless the vidya market crashes into the fricking ground and the EU forces a bunch of anti-scumfrick design laws, this will not be fixed, because these problems are caused by money and money alone.
Modern day vidya industry is practically an industry comparable to selling drugs to kids and said industry is also has so much money, that it's too powerful for legal bodies to combat by now. Any attempts by things such as the EU fixing this will simply be met by lobbying, blackmail, and extortion.
Sandbox roleplaying and focus on player-player interaction (not necessarily pvp) instead of WoW raiding bullshit. Make more games like EvE Online, Space Station 13, and Rust. Less games like WoW or FF14.
Addendum to this is that MMOs should stop catering to solo players altogether. It's a waste of development time on turning your MMO into a shitty single player game. The FF14 solo experience is simply objectively worse than just playing a normal FF game. Similar story with every other MMO that makes concessions for solo players.
>The FF14 solo experience is simply objectively worse than just playing a normal FF game.
God yes. If I judged XIV as an FF like its dumbass community tells me to it's the worst by a mile. You lose the resource management, you lose the tactical combat with the sole exception of when you're fighting bosses and then it's only what you personally can manage, you lose rewarding exploration, you lose an equipment system that's more than number go up, and then it makes you deal with shit ass MMO questing and horrendous pacing in lieu of what you'd get out of any other FF. XIV's leveling experience is pure fricking dogshit.
don't forget that instead of playing the protagonist of the story you play the errand boy that has to go around doing menial fetch quests for the actual main characters who do all the important stuff and move the plot forward
Nothing. What made MMOs great was the sense of discovery and community around them. Now a new game comes out, people spend more time watching youtube videos explaning how to play and the community is scattered around 280 discord servers.
People moved to discord servers because the israelited game moderation steals their product if they try using in game communication.
Law enforcement yet to do frick all about illegal wiretapping.
This guy gets it. Everything from content to class, game life choices, people just leave it to someone else to figure it out for them nowadays. Even when the MMO devs actually make good content, people will always just breeze through them in a week because they saw how to do it by a "pro" moron whose life revolves around teaching morons how to play their games.
Also, casuals who don't even like MMOs are the loudest people when it comes to complaining about the game, and the devs often try to actually appease to them, the changes those complaints bring almost never are what the people who actually likes the games want, and the casuals still won't like the game even after the change was made.
Wrong. ESO still has its horizontal progression and people still play it. What you need is bringing challenges which should make you and your class you're playing to adapt, and not taking away your toys.
this is why Everquest does timelocked progression servers. they start from classic and go on through content over the course of like a year or two and then they spin up new servers and start all over again.
WoW has been doing this with Classic too where it went Vanilla -> TBC -> WotLK, but it has now reached the expansions where people don't give a frick anymore.
WoW never did timelocked progression servers. they've just been adding new tiers of classic. i imagine once they hit like MoP or maybe Legion (WoD sucks dick and no one will play it but people will play Legion) they'll start doing TLP servers. people have been begging for fresh servers for awhile now to the point that they were even rerolling on dead servers to try to simulate fresh launches, it's probably 90% of why anyone bothered with SoD
Blizzard are morons as usual though and think they can milk old content as long as they had to when it took actual time to create the new content.
Expansions should be 1-2 months max.
Everyone should get their tier set after a run so they can do another with it and be done, ready for the next thing.
No matter what they do, I am never going back while they autoban speech with no recourse.
I feel like interaction with other players is the only way to keep MMOs alive. Player-made content for in-game rewards, pvp, holding world objectives, etc.
They need to be more casual so that girls (female) will play. There needs to be a reward to it all- an e-girlfriend. Otherwise, why grind for your character to look cool? It's like real life.
Windstar would have been the perfect MMO with how MMOs turned out right now >Amazing housing system >Autistic min-max raiding scene >pvp could use some polish >fun open world activities that could be implemented due to hoverboard >fun dungeons
Complete eradication of the internet and wiki users.
Assassins sent directly to your home if you are found consulting a wiki or watching a video about the game.
im pretty sure its never gonna get released, radio silence for a few months, paired with it doing badly in japan and amazon games shitting themselves is not a good sign
>was hyped for this >amazon buys publishing right >immediately lose all interest
motherfrickers couldn't have chosen a worse publisher for the international release
god fricking dammit
you can't
now everyone expects everyone to do the newest content on the beta servers/watch 300 of each fight and never fail once, play like a machine , and there's nothing "mmorpg" about limited player numbers
>MMO
MMOs are a bad idea, why save it? It's bound to be a shit show one way or another.
Just make games with customizable open and closed servers, games with leagues, etc.
Mobile based. Ads during loadbtikes from pitifully slow micro sd cards and internet connecrions.
No combat just look around. Exploration points unlock other areas to see. Veichles run on exploration points. Shops too. You spend them initiating and during conversation with anyone. They get yours so have an incentive to talk to you. If they like you take turns starting cinversation. Get more points travelling/exploring with more people.
right now nothing i would say, people played mmo's back in the day for a couple of reasons, massive online,community and mystery/discovery >massive online and community
self explanatory, back in the day you didn't have a lot of places in games where you could talk and have fun for hours, while the community you could find people to play with and find friends, have banter without some homosexual/troony ruining everything or getting banned, but now everyone are on discord, full of mentally ill attention prostitutes and you get banned for saying "homosexual" >mystery and discovery
back then people were not so obsessed with builds/guides etc, people were having fun and trying their best to be the best at the game, failing and getting up again, finding secrets, raids, etc
Now you can go online and find 1000 guides about X game and how to be the best, find all the secrets, weapons, gears etc, so why bother playing the game then ?
>back then people were not so obsessed with builds/guides etc, people were having fun and trying their best to be the best at the game, failing and getting up again, finding secrets, raids, etc
This was the best part and where most of the fun came from.
People today need to relax and remember what games are supposed to be about.
Rust got the open world MMO shit kinda figured out. You have to give players a way to fight back effectively against guilds/clans/better geared players. Without that everything devolves into the biggest clan bullying everybody else. A skilled player in ARK, Rust, and the like can take advantage of clans. Biggest issue with this type of game is the time investment required, it can take hours for a new player just to get a start only for them to get raided/looted in 30 seconds. Not sure how this could work in traditional fantasy MMOs with stats and stuff but i'm sure it could be done given a talented enough developer and enough money.
Stop making 'action' mmos. There have been a dozen+ of them in less than a decade and they all hold niche, small playerbases.
Make a classic, tab targeting mmo that fleshes out lacking/non-existent concepts in current mmos like wow or ff14. >enemies have weight and mass, when pushed together they dont just clip into one big undulating pile. different enemies require different grouping/ungrouping tactics >INCREASE group size from 5, to 6-10 potentially >instead of tanks being 95% of defense and everyone else getting instantly 1-shot, make tanks just pretty tough, and everyone else able to hold their own in emergencies >go ahead and goof around with hybrid roles, the larger group sizes and less hyper-reliant on tanking system frees up room for some deviation
To fix MMOs you have to fix humanity because their appeal is that they are social games (The genre is after all named by the fact it focuses on Multi-Player) but way too many people end up wanting to play them anti-socially because they end up hating 90% of the playerbase for some reason of another, if they don't go solo then they stay in their designated circlejerk Guild (Or equivalent). A good MMO is designed so that player cooperate and communicate in order to win (Even if it is against other players) and that can be a issue when the mechanics end up being so complicated your average casual just plain ignores them and if your playerbase is so autistic it can not communicate to eachother properly or when they start to treat eachother as disposable.
The natural evolution of MMOs are effectively social deduction games and similar that focused less on having a mass of players and complicated mechanics and more on giving the players things to socialize and communicate about. Though you can arguably have both in things like SS13.
MMOs are by design "Quantity over quality" and that is why they cannot be saved and do not deserve to be saved, because reality is that the "Massive Multi Player" is ornate, even people who love them stick with the same (Non-massive) group of people once they are in one, the "Massive" only matters until they find that group or if you want a endless supply of shitter newbies to gank in PvP.
>im an insecure shut-in incel introvert who refuses to play with people outside of my gay circle jerk
Sounds like a you problem, I meet new people all the time going into new MMOs blind.
This is why mmo's will be "saved" by AI. The future of mmo games aren't even server hosted multiplayer. Just you and your friends in a normal survival crafting type game, but filled with a living world of AI that exist just to make your experience better, which will be leagues above any experience that has to cater to 100 randoms at once. It will feel massive and alive, and will be multiplayer for you and your friends, but you will always be the main character.
>A good MMO is designed so that player cooperate and communicate in order to win (Even if it is against other players)
I play every game with random players muted. Even competitive shooters. There is very little actual need for communication and verbal coordination up to just about under the level of actual esports teams. If you were to bring an MMO up to the difficulty level where I'd have set my chat window to visible and start chatting, pinging the map or god forbid, unmute my mic and get organized just to deal with overworld content. You've just made the game to hard to play at all, communication or not, for 95% of players.
>Mobile gaming shift
What mobile MMOs are out there that don't play themselves and have actual gameplay?
Every single mobile MMO I've tried sucked a lot of ass and I didn't even play them since all of them play themselves alone.
Dadanon stop being fricking cringe. You gave up the ability to be a worthless neet, you don't get to come in here and claim you're above neet hobbies. >Any dad that spends time with friends is a worthless dad
Holy shit how whipped are you? I see my friends once or twice a week, hand out with the boys in discord some evenings etcetera and I have no problems with the wife.
I'm not going to say your relationship with your wife isn't good, she's probably very supportive and would understand if you wanted time with your friends. You let her see her friends right? You're not just spitefully trapping her inside with you because you have kids and don't see your friends anymore, right?
Keeping male friendships after kids is hard, but it's worth doing. You can't be the same piece of shit you used to be but you can keep in touch goddamn.
Running an MMO guild is hard - everyone needs to schedule or it will not work out. don't b***h because you chose a life that makes that schedule tough for you, just find a guild with a schedule that does or frick off. Making dads look bad.
And watch as it slowly dwindles to nothing over the course of time. Sorry that I already speedran the shitty friends flake you and come to realize the only thing worth anything in this world is family. I can't imagine being a grown man and talking to other grown men on discord. I had my aol instant messager phase already when I was 10. Grow up, homosexual.
>the only thing that matters is family >spends his free time in pointless discussions with literal anonymous people on a video game imageboard
You are not very good at this roleplay.
You are implying that you couldn't come to care about other people's schedule and the sort besides your family, yet you're wasting your time trying to change the opinions of people you'll likely never met. You are making no sense.
What makes you think I care about your opinion? I wouldn't try to dissuade you from sucking wieners because that's your nature. I just think your ideas are moronic and so are you.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Okay bro, I'm just trying to tell you to stop being cringe, at least pretend to type like someone who's above 18 of age if you're gonna stick to the role.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Says the guy who unironically uses the term poopsock.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Alright junior, and this is the part where you learn that thanks to the whole anonymous gimmick of this website, you aren't always replying to the same person as before. You'll learn the ropes with time.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Then get IDs. I don't main this board because it's fricking shit. Everyone replying to me is the same person. I don't give a frick if that's true or isn't. You probably are the same one and just lying like when you said he in reference to your own post.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Autism.
2 months ago
Anonymous
moronation
2 months ago
Anonymous
you have to go back.
2 months ago
Anonymous
You've literally not said one thing of substance since you've been here. Now you're using buzzwords? Just give up, dude. Raidgays are a cancer and everyone knows it. And everyone also acknowledges the overwhelming amount of autism found in such a community. People want different things but they always seem to pander to you b***hes because you're the fricking whales, literally and figuratively, that keep them afloat. Just once I'd like to see them prioritize quests over bosses. And add shit to patches that isn't just buffs and nerfs for raidgays.
From what I understand, other than the obvious wow and xiv, ESO and Black Desert actually still have players. Surprisingly enough.
GW2 shards their maps so that they are always full of people. The "server" you join when you start isn't even really a thing, since they all get sharded and merged together.
Still, no amount of sharding can create players that aren't there. Imagine if Tree of Savior started doing that. It barely has like 10 people in the whole fricking NA region anyway.
Yeah I get that.
I feel like the best way to make an mmo today would probably to design around sharded servers, so worlds are never truly feel dead, and throw persistent world shit out the window, and tie any persistence to something instanced like plots of land like bdo, or entire instanced zones for player housing or something like that.
And finally disallow any kind of player trading entirely. I feel like that just fricks up everything in mmo's, because every patch just becomes "highest credit per hour in patch 1.XX guide" type of thing. It leads to a division of labor that just makes these games feel so shitty when players should really be taking part in all the parts of the game that the developers designed, instead of just speccing into one specific thing and doing one boring job all the time because it's what your character is "best" at. That's one of the reasons people play games in the first place is because real life is like that, and it sucks.
Last time I played gw2 it was basically a p2w game because you could use real money and easily trade it out for the currency used by the market in the game via dyes or whatever the other way was. I don't think ffxiv lets you do that.
I don't know if it'll save MMOs but, player created content i.e. custom dungeons/raids/instances could help bolster a given MMOs content offering and give players something to do between updates.
Nothing.
Problem isn't exactly with the genre. It is and it isn't.
MMOs are inherently dependant upon the community and it's make up. The natural generational shift has occurred and the newer generations are insufferable, even more so in large numbers; which is also no longer a novel concept as it was before the days of social media.
So the primary draw of the game no longer exists and to change or remove it, would make the game no longer an MMO. So nothing can be done.
They shove servers together depending on their activity so the game never feels dead even in world vs world where it's kind of like a team of servers vs other teams of servers. They are planning on making world vs world guild based in the future though (teams of guilds vs teams of guilds I think), but they've been beta testing it for literally years.
Is it too bad to get into it as a new player? I don't mean just being able to enter. I mean being able to enter and also feel like you are actually playing in there and not getting massively stomped and feeling useless.
I played gw2 at launch and maxed level in the weekend it came out so it's been a long time. But in world vs world you will essentially find a player as a general that everyone will follow in a train, and they'll give orders and tell people what to do, when to run, when to attack, etc. When I played fights tended to be pretty much like, you take out forts until an enemy train shows up and whoever gets the jump on the other essentially smashes them due to the number of buffs they have over the other (so they like they sally out of a fort and wreck you).
WvW isn't really gw2's strong point really. GW2 is really a turn your brain off amusement park game, where essentially every quest in the world has joint progression with everyone else helping. There are raids/fractals but I never really cared for them. There is also pvp which is its own separate thing with separate progression (not world vs world) which is neat.
When I went back to play it I would follow trains of people around to take out the world bosses on these timers: https://guildwarstemple.com/dragontimer/events.php?serverKey=119&langKey=1
It's a pve thing but I thought it was pretty cool due to the number of people involved.
Make the mmorpgs have the combat system of Black Desert. Rekove all cash shop bullshit in the game and out all effort into unlocking gear and skins that are cool in-game and not with your wallet.
Add World vs World PVP with base building mechanics and also add full blown 10-25 man raids.
Make it similar to how helldivers has a progressive livemap showing a collective team or faction push to “win” territory and bragging rights.
Add Guild Houses and Housing mechanics
Remove all LGBTQ+ woke DEI ESG from the game completely
Add exploration mechanics to the game and job swapping
MMOs are never coming back. Most of what the average consumer wanted from them, they can get from CoD or Fortnite without anywhere near as much of a time commitment.
A lot of MMOs suffer from FOMO events that they won't bring back to get special items or whatever that you can only get from that event. And while some circumvent this by re-adding those items to other events, you won't know if you're going to get that item ever again. Like the title says, there's a lot of over-saturation of the MMO market, thanks to Korea since they love to just shit out MMOs every month or year. Some MMOs suffer from just being shit overall. Bad mechanics, combat, movement, too grindy, poor updates, awful economy. They can become a huge mess after some years then wonder why they can't get any new players while also trying to attract new players and not focusing on the long-term content and players. Some MMOs are just glorified chatrooms and while most people do play the game, a lot of people are also just standing around, chatting. There are some that are too easy or have too steep of a learning curve. Some of them want it to be a second job where you have to log in every day. It's just so tiring and I think MMOs are beyond saving at this point.
So, how come things like Anvil Empires can have a non-typical MMO with up to 1000 players, but no mainstream MMORPG has tried a similar approach?
And if it's just a matter of reducing bandwidth stress, why not bump the number up even higher by cutting corners elsewhere? Like a 10000 player game where everyone's character is on a hexagonal grid, attacking is automatically calculated by the server at set intervals, and player actions like moving are only done once per second or such?
I think you kind of answered your own question. It really is a bandwidth constraint, and to get around it you have to make the game kind of suck. There are definitely things that most games are not doing that they definitely COULD do to increase the total number of players, like packet prioritization (games like fortnite, halo series, planetside 2, etc do a lot of this) which allows supporting lots of moving physics objects (including players) while allowing there to just be lag when there are tons of things moving around close by at once instead of just destroying your bandwidth budget/wallet if it's a hosted game (cloud service charge for network egress).
One issue, is that no matter how lightweight you make the update frequency, since every player needs updates on every other player, the number of updates you need to send out on the server are n*(n-1) number of updates. So if you have 100 players, adding 1 extra player would mean adding another 100 updates that have to go to that player (and that is just assuming players are updated on other players and not everything else in the game world). You could cut down on the tick rate (and that's why mmo's are all tab targeting btw, because the tick rate is tiny), but even then you are linearly cutting down on tick rate to make up for an exponentially scaling problem.
Games like foxhole claim to have however many players per server but they still has 240 max players per map.
What if the main server only sends updates to 1000 players and they send the remaining updates to their closest 10? And if that wouldn't normally work, suppose the client-updatees would have to have less than 10ms ping to the client-updater or something. Or even a LAN connection.
I suppose an MMO would just have to be designed different. Like one battleship being a 100-player server, and they fight against another battleship server that they cant even see, shooting shells two dozen kilometers away. Or in ranges that they do see each other, the enemy servership is just a representation. Would that be possible?
>What if the main server only sends updates to 1000 players and they send the remaining updates to their closest 10?
That's called peer-to-peer, and that means you give up authority to those players, meaning anyone can hack their game (or just unplug their ethernet cord when you don't want to die) and the server loses authority.
>Like one battleship being a 100-player server, and they fight against another battleship server that they cant even see, shooting shells two dozen kilometers away. Or in ranges that they do see each other, the enemy servership is just a representation. Would that be possible?
Yes this is possible. There used to be some of games out there, that did that where there would be "zones" of 64 player battles that made up a game of many more players than that, so games could claim to support however many players even though you'd only ever be exposed to 63 other people. You could see how other zones are doing while playing in your own battle zone and possibly effect them in some ways. There was a Xbox 360 game that did this.
And yes if you can enforce chunking up players specifically to different ships, so that they NEVER can interact (to avoid worst case of people grouping up), then yes you could have a battleship/submarine/spaceship game work like that.
The other solution is the EVE online solution which is time dilation. If it slows the server down to have so many people, actually slow the gameplay down itself.
So peer-to-peer would be doable if it was on a hobbyist whitelist system or such? Or if the PCs were controlled by an organization like the military.
And EVE. If it's all about TIME, couldn't you make an MMO out of any game if it's on bullet time? It'd be awful to play an FPS on a 1000 player server, with everyone moving an inch per minute, but technically?
Yeah you could do the time thing, and you could tweak the update rate/speed per player so only when players are nearby do things slow down to keep things under bandwidth budget. You'd need a custom networking solution though compared to the battleship example because changing tick rates is not a normal thing, and if you went below the heartbeat rate (which is often fixed in networking solutions) players would time out.
Peer to peer is definitely doable and it was standard for many non-competitive games (GTA is partly p2p). The thing is since it's so dependent on NAT punchthrough and router settings, it's common for things to just not work correctly for some people, and to this day p2p games have people complaining that multiplayer doesn't work, or they keep dropping out of games, with guides on how to fix things.
Also programming a game with p2p can be very tricky in general. Unity engine and Unreal engine don't even have native solutions for peer to peer, everything is going host/dedicated model.
>Or if the PCs were controlled by an organization like the military.
Yeah in a controlled environment it can work. It's why p2p was so popular on consoles, because there was a (tacit) guarantee that everyone had an unmodded console. That didn't stop people from building lag switches though.
They definitely do. Speaking from experience, it's just looking for something new to waste time on and trying to find something different. It doesn't always work out, but they had at least one new player.
I've been playing Tree of Savior again for some time and yes I can see on daily basis new players as the game has now a "support guild" any new account will automatically join so you can see it easily. The thing is the game is so incredibly new players unfriendly that most of them leave again within a few days. All content is designed to keep the last remaining endgame players busy with layers of RNG while milking the whales.
>most of them leave again within a few days
This is me. I played like 20 hours in 3 days and then I'm now done. It's cool that once you get to level 15 class which takes like 10 minutes you can test any class (with 2 or 3 exceptions) and then change classes at will. I spent some good 5+ hours just testing classes.
I don't regret the time spent on it, it was fun for those 3 days, but yeah I'm not coming back.
The devs have no vision what the game is supposed to be. It seems like a bunch of suits are in charge who don't play video games so they just copy whatever is popular like gear score or add more RNG garbage. People have been telling them the classes and build variety are the big strength of the game and yet they have been doing nothing but making gear up so absurd that any character beyond main is unfeasible. I cant tell how much Nexon fricked them though but their Mobile game seems to follow the same approach.
I've played every decently popular MMO since 2000 and I always go back to my 25 year old RS account. How the frick did they do it? Why hasn't the formula been copied with a genuine attempt?
I've always liked this idea, but the cost just seems so prohibitive for what you get out of it. Like what would deep rock galactic get out of it being server authoritative for instance? You'd make it easier to sell things to players, but that cost would be counteracted by having to host servers yourself.
Tarkov made it work because of the pvp element needing authority (but even then everyone still cheats).
No. That design philosophy never took off.
The real MMOs that blew up were the ones where you're following your own adventure, or with a friend, and you'd naturally come across players and could either collaborate or fight.
Nothing proved this to me more than when WoW came out with the Throne of Thunder patch in Pandaria. Game was fricking dead mostly due to the expansion being ass and PVP being dominated by triple pyroblast mages (at this time Pyroblast chunked 30~50% of a dude's HP depending on gear and CDs) and Throne of Thunder released a zone where you could pick up PVEVP dailies, where you'd be tasked with doing the usual quest types in a contested zone with other players, and it instantly was fun again.
You want people to not be forced to play with others, but you do want to make it impossible for them to play a couple hours without playing with other people and talking to them.
WoW made anti-social people make friends, that was always its greatest strength, and it did it through gameplay.
Except now even pvp servers are 100% horde or alliance because no one wants to be bothered by shit like that. If you want to play pvp, everyone knows to play an actual pvp-centric game.
name a PVP centric game aside from league that ever had a bigger PVP scene than WoW during WotLK and Cata
servers get packed because both devs and players are fricking moronic
NTA but the randomness of open world pvp makes the environment feel alive to me. Yeah there will be butthole hunting low levels. But that still feels like it's part of an environment that is alive. There is a bunch of plus to it like just randomly bumping into an enemy player that happens to be on the same quest as you for instance.
I feel like every single aspect of it beats sitting in the main city at max level queueing for structured pvp matches.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Getting ganked by max levels is a groundhog day snoozefest.
The issue with the pvp ganking thing, is if they're better equipped, you have zero chance of winning, because it's still mmo combat.
Compare that to Rust, where if you have skills winning is still very much possible, and you stand to gain a lot from it.
2 months ago
Anonymous
How do you beat a sniper with a rock?
2 months ago
Anonymous
Taking out other players with the handcannon pistol thing takes skill but doable.
What's the minimum graphics threshold to get a decent playerbase size so there's a community?
I can make a roguelike. I can make a MUD. I can even add simplistic tile graphics. I guess ROTMG proves you don't need to have good graphics as long as the gameplay is good...
Though a tile based game that doesn't have the history of Runescape is probably a hard sell to the modern audience. People shit on tab target hot bar combat, let alone auto-battle.
One of these days I'm going to make a roguelike MMO.
>start a run >get a stick >meet another guy with a stick >stare down >decide to conquer the dungeon and everyone else, slaying lone players and evading groups >after 12 layers the guy backstabs me with the great weapon I gave him
it'd be FUN
>character creator that lets you make actually attractive characters (naraka bladepoint?) >itemization with horizontal progression focus like ffxi pre-abyssea >action combat like pso2 nge >skill trees like d2 except the nodes are first unlocked as drop items >open world, no hubs, proximity chat only, any extended gatherings get buster called >pvp always on >drop all your equipment when you die >generic ass story, but devs actively make it revolve around the actual sweatlord players on the server (launch focusing on gm characters until real players get established)
That's 95% of what open world pvp is in WoW yeah. 4% is ganking the random similarly leveled enemy faction player that got caught out with low HP while fighting a mob. The last 1% are the epic Tarren Mill vs Southshore pvp skirmishes from like 2004 that don't happen anymore.
complete death of korean grindslop design
this, they all fundamentally play the same, it was a tired design by 2010 and they haven't tried to reinvent it
Id rather play koreanslop than play modern wow or modern """"""classic"""""" wow
Live action mmo? What about an mmo where players contribute to story completion that eventually ends said mmo after a few years?
because if it was making money at the end they wouldn't shut it down
>What about an mmo where players contribute to story completion that eventually ends said mmo after a few years?
mmo players are dumbasses and reject this, they refused guild wars 2 fomo living world episodes that were supposed to evolve the world and we went back to shitty expansions that are abandoned
>they refused guild wars 2 fomo living world episodes
it would help if they weren't total dogshit
>b-but
doesn't matter the concept is dead now lol
enjoy your destiny 2 yearly seasonal """""""""content""""""""""""
There's no "but" moron the story was literally the shittiest part of GW2 no matter how they format it, and the game already isn't particularly good.
ok trans
guild wars 2 living world was ass, and it's story was brutally murdered by that fat pig c**t Jessica Price.
Helldivers 2 is doing well
gee i wonder why players rejected GW2's awesome story
Is this edited?
No. GW2 is very pozzed. It's right behind FFXIV in terms of pozzed SJW shit.
Glad I stopped playing right before heart of thorns
Yeah, base GW2 was fine I think. It goes to shit the moment they decided to kill off / replace all the cool supporting cast with a bunch of annoying gay c**ts in between the base game and HoT.
there's this particular class of bitter woman that doesn't understand stuff like fantasy and sci-fi or why men like it and hate that they were gatekept from it for so long, they make characters like that or Rey from Star Wars where they're just powerful and strong because they are. they don't understand characters like Frodo or Luke Skywalker, they just see how important they are to the story and nothing else. it's sad.
You got to not-China and the not-Beijing cops don't want you there
no, GW2's story is very, very bad. for awhile it basically centered around this mary sue manic pixie girl who was the smartest and strongest person in the universe and every quest/expansion story revolved around how powerful and awesome she was.
>That hair
Do they even have a modicum of self awarness?
They make a fricking mary sue with the mentally ill feminist clown hairstyle and in no single point they notice that?
we were talking about the old living story not the expansion you dumb troony obsessed homosexual
It was equally shit
>b-bu-u-mbu
nobody cares trans obsessed Black persontron, suicide k thx bai
Couldn't imagine a more pathetic existence than going to bat for ANET
>defend anet
mighty homosexual cope you got there
Next time follow the response chain before shooting your sperg load and maybe you won't get accused of such things.
anything to bait you's
they're all written by the same onions homosexuals what does it matter
I was directly responding to the anon asking if the image posted was edited which is from End of Dragons you AIDs sucking Black personhomosexual.
First of all GW2 is old and looks like shit. They need to make GW3.
Secondly, the living world shit sucks. No one wants to shell out for money for something that is supposed to "change the game world" when only 10% of the player base actually cares about the dogshit story.
Third, You will never be a man.
>First of all GW2 is old and looks like shit. They need to make GW3.
(You)
Not designing every facet of the game around monetization for one, since 90% of MMOs these days are Korean. Respecting the player's time more, not piling grind systems on top of grind systems ad nauseum. I want to waste 1000 hours grinding something because I want to do it not because I will fall behind unless I do it.
The thing I loved about lotro was being able to grind out points to buy expansions with. Seems more games should do this. And don't tie it to player to player bullshit like wow tokens where values get inflated and shit.
LOTRO unironically has tons of free content to do these days if you just want to explore an MMO and you'd probably get enough GBP just from playing to buy those adventure pack things they do.
I played it when only the starter areas were free. I grinded out lone lands then they made it free shortly afterwards. Think I grinded 4 or 5 more zones after that. It was heaven for poorgays like I was. I still think it's the best balance of grinding and pay to win of any mmo I played. I had a pretty good black dye business before they made it piss easy to make. Will never forget my lowbie adventures back and forth to rivendell trying not to die. Good shit.
nothing. the reasons why MMOs were popular were the social features, but between draconian TOS cooked up by childless cat ladies who want to insert themselves into everyone else's social circle and Discord there's no way to go back to those days. no one talks in games anymore because it's not worth the hassle of risking a ban or getting cancelled or whatever.
this is an issue of all multiplayer games really and won't be solved until the idea of centralized matchmaking systems for monetization start to go away and player run servers come back, including for MMOs.
grind is fine, it's the point of the genre, it's just how you go about it. stuff like grinding factions in EQ were fine because you could grind as much as you want and all in your own time. it's obnoxious when they became timegated like modern WoW where they knew there wasn't enough real content to keep you logging in so they just tie the stuff you really want to a gated faction grind that will take months to do, or tied to specific types of content no one wants to do. (flying, allied races requiring grinding out world quests day in day out)
Faction grinds would let you access new weapons or zones right? Never played much EQ outside of dabbling with p99. You do those things because you want the cool weapon upgrade or seeing new content. I genuinely think grinding is one part implementation and one part optics.
Grinding should be optional and only used in place of real money transactions. You should never have to grind as your only way to experience certain things in a game.
mostly faction grinding was done to fix your rep. EVERYTHING in EQ had a faction from town guards to merchants to monsters themselves. you could piss off high level ranger/druid NPCs in some zones by poaching animals for instance. different races also had different set alignments they begin the game with like Dark Elves and lizardmen are hated by most everyone else, so if you wanted to go into good cities and use those merchants/banks etc you had to grind out the faction to be able to do so. and even then it wasn't always enough because religion trumps faction so if a higher level NPC didn't like the god you worshipped you were SOL.
so the faction grind is a grind but it also has a real measurable impact on the world and how you interact with it and reflects the choices you made when you created your character. like you could play an evil god worshipping human Cleric and it would change how you go about navigating the city and getting your spells and whatnot. it's not just pointless busy work gating promised expansion features behind particular types of content because the devs need to hit some gay metric Bobby Kotick put on them.
Oh that's kind of neat actually, having to actually think about how you'll navigate a city or handle NPCs if you are playing evil or disliked characters.
shit like that is what the genre is missing, RPG elements. i blame PvPgays more than anyone else, they cry loudest than anyone if something isn't perfectly balanced for their shitty minigames or ganking simulators and force the devs to get rid of any sovl or character and homogenize the shit out of everything
poopsocking world firsting PvErs contribute to the problem in the modern day but PvP homosexuals are what kicked off that kind of shit
PVP gay here can confirm. It always boils down to x is op nerf pl0x. Don't know much about PVE types besides noticing they are robotic turbo autists who get really angry if you break their daily grind routines.
>grind is fine, it's the point of the genre,
No.
cool, you're wrong b***h
You're a moron who started with EQ. Your opinion is irrelevant.
Shut your mouth, child.
The entire genre has EQ to thank for even existing in the first place.
No it doesn't.
Literally every successful MMO has been led and backed by former EQ players and developers.
Literally, objectively wrong.
Educate yourself.
You first.
This game was an absolute imbalanced and poorly executed shitshow, but I've never experienced the excitement I had exploring the world ever again in an MMO like I did in UO. I've basically spent my entire life in the game doing nothing but treasure hunting
UO gets points for actually... letting me go do whatever the frick I wanted right away. I didn't get forced onto a rail of doing cancerously shit tasks in a completely artifical feeling world nonstop.
Yes, that was the magic. There were days I just wanted to tame some cool new animals and decorate my house (in the middle of the map, no instanced shit), and the other day I would go hunting a group of PKs with my friends, which would develop in a full-blown server war in few hours.
What about the successful mmos that existed before EQ? Why don't they count?
>former eq developers founded ncsoft before making everquest
lol okay
Nobody cared about Lineage outside of Korea and ncsoft didn't become known globally until Lineage II which was 4 years after EQ released thanks for playing.
Ultima Online and MUDs actually but EQ was the thing that made the genre blow up
EQ was not the first mmo wtf are you talking about
>grind is fine, it's the point of the genre
Wrong, you stupid hamster homosexual. The point is to go on adventures with your bros. Grinding is for cow-clicker games, not MMOs. Morons like you are why the genre died, do the world a favor and follow it.
why do stupid homosexuals like you that don't like or want to play this genre always barge into threads like these with your moronic shit takes, go back to Valheim and your other survivalslop
>Respecting the player's time more
This is moronic. Because you can say putting p2w respect the player's time as it allows the player to pay to catch up to people who play regularly.
The current shit-stain that is MMORPGS is in a bad state because devs tried to make a game for everyone but a game for everyone is a game for no one
the player's time more
>This is moronic.
we have found the crux of why devs go out of their way to make mmorpgs shitty nowadays
That's FFXIV
What? You're telling me you dont want to grind for years the very same raid fighting the RNG and when you finally get what you wanted get screwed by the randomized stats so you can start over again? But no seriously who the frick likes this multitude of RNG layers? Feels like some garbage excuse to hold players forever to conceal the lack of content outside of gearing up.
Don't you hear the autists in this thread? You're abnormal for liking varied and emergent quests instead of doing the same exact thing 100 times. That's where the real value is.
>emergent quests
Yes, BC was full of them. What's the fricking problem?
I don't think you know what an emergent quest is.
Quests that randomly pop up in the world that you do with the people that are there at the time instead being a gay and scheduling your game time.
That's not what an emergent quest is.
It literally is, moron. What does the word emergent mean?
I used to be a hardcore grinder back in the day. Coming home from school or skipping university lecture and then 8-14h doing nothing but grinding the same shit for a non-existing chance of getting an item that I would have then to process through even more layers of RNG with slim chances. However even I eventually asked myself why the frick am I doing this coming to the conclusion a bit grind is fine but if the rewards are borderline unobtainable the devs can go frick themself. Literally flipping burgers has more value as you at least get guaranteed money at the end. I don't know if I might interpret too much into it but I sometimes wonder if asians see low drops as "birth right"-equal thing they love so much.
Asians work like 12 hours a day, what they want is something mindless to waste a couple hours doing before they go to bed.
I personally just pay venezulans 2$ an hour to grind for me
honestly its only grindy 2nd job WoW-clone Korean shit that's declining
all the good MMOs are still going strong
Are the Korean players finally realizing the design structure of their MMOs are some of the most consumer unfriendly practices in gaming?
no
Then they can die with their subgenre.
No, Korean players are just going extincts, so there is less pressure on the industry to keep making shit for them.
Nothing, they designed themselves into a corner where if you do things too differently people will hate it, and they were never going to play anyway because they are too invested in the MMOs they are already playing and wouldn't want to start over.
Runescape merging the mainstream accounts with the OSRS ones, deleting mainstream RS and resetting OSRS to exactly how it was in 2006 before any changes to wildy or the addition of the auction house.
and banning those Black person cheat clients of course
yes
Runelite is the only thing keeping that shit game remotely playable
I feel like I've been seeing this thread for almost 20 years.
Make more sandbox MMORPGs with PvP-focused gameplay.
Make less themepark WoW clones.
>Make more sandbox MMORPGs with PvP-focused gameplay.
Every MMO which tried this were dead on the water after a month.
>sandbox
Bots and autists will overwhelm any player-driven stuff on the map
>PvP
Is and was always a side-dish in any MMO.
>>PvP
>Is and was always a side-dish in any MMO.
imagine being this much of a little b***h lmoa
The truth is, no one gives a shit about pvp. And the people who give a shit, don't want "fair" fights, they want ambush lowbies and grief others. And pvp content gets old very fast.
factually false, good drama content only comes from pvp. See eve online. Want to socialize? Just go on discord or facebook dumb boomers lmao
>good drama content
What the frick is "drama content"?
Player A farms hundreds of hours of mats.
You gank them and steal their shit.
They start seething and retaliate.
This back and forth is drama content
What actually happens:
Guild A farms hundreds of hours of mats
Organizes to gank players who aren't in similarly powerful guilds
Maybe at some point there is a guild war between Guild A and Guild B. It doesn't matter because you're not part of it and doesn't actually impact the economy due to guilds colluding in price fixing.
Everyone else quits
Guilds quit because there's no one to gank anymore
Game dies
Making them quit is the point, your forgetting the part where you have hundreds of thousands of players to go through and by the time the games dead you would have gotten 5+ years of content. Which by that time another game comes out with a fresh population to mess with
Games like Rust do this better already.
Discord/VRChat do social elements better
Rust/PvP survival crafting games do clan-based pvp better
Mobas do competitive pvp better
FOTM Mission based games like GTFO, Deep Rock Galactic, Helldivers 2, etc are better "weekend with the bros" kind of games.
What do mmo's do better compared to any other genre? I can't think of a single thing other than maybe playing doll dressup.
Agreed, the gamestyle of rust is probably where pvp mmos will trend. Seasonal based progession is a good thing.
High difficulty co-op PvE and persistent worlds over games like Rust.
The high difficulty co-op pvp is covered by those mission based games with higher and higher levels of difficulty like deep rock galactic, vermintide, etc. Also looter shooters cover this.
That really only leaves the persistent world thing like Wurm online, or EVE online or something like that, which honestly are very niche games in the end. MMO's often try to throw some kind of persistent world thing on top of the normal map, as a late game thing for guilds to get involved in to fight over areas that don't affect the normal players at all but it basically always devolves into a roflstomp of one side, because no one wants to join a losing faction. Even in something without land to conquer like WoW, entire servers end up just being 100% alliance or 100% horde.
Those games are nowhere near the level MMOs get to. They could be in theory but they never really are.
>Those games are nowhere near the level MMOs get to
That's the point, no one wants to bother with some complicated shit that is also dependent on other people at the same time. Think about hardcore wow where anyone can just decide to frick up your raid, or forget intentionally fricking it up, just fricking it up normally for being a dumbass.
It's super, ultra, mega, niche.
But it's still a niche other games don't handle.
>Think about hardcore wow
A very moronic idea.
Yes and other games don't handle it because the amount of people who like it is extremely small. How many people really enjoy the part of mmos where some moron can wipe your raid and there's nothing anyone can do about it other than trying the boss until he stops being a moron?
I don't like first person shooters. I want Rust except make it play like a MMORPG.
Haven&Hearth comes close but the devs are idiots who refuse to advertise their game.
>I want Rust except make it play like a MMORPG.
So like, tab targeting, or like, mmo progression?
Part of the benefit of rust being an fps, like another anon said, is because if you're skilled you can really turn the table on unskilled people, starting from zero which gives its appeal. If everything was based around mmo targeting and predetermined stats the gameplay would be kind of shit.
well mmos allow you to do all that in one package. People just enjoy progressing their character and having the freedom to do variety of content
in the context of an MMO it's the spectator sport of other people's shit like how in EVE you have corporations going to war with each other or a guy losing a ship that costs $10,000 of IRL money. or in classic EQ how guilds will fight over endgame dungeons (they aren't instanced like modern MMOs, there is only one dragon that spawns once a week, that kind of thing) and there's all kinds of politics and backstabbing and players breaking the rules to try to kill each other's raids without getting caught. it's fun stuff. instaced, welfare epics and the idea that everyone is entitled to endgame raiding killed most of that though, now the only drama is from streamers not using a troony's preferred pronoun or something.
>dont want fair fights
talk about yourself homosexual . big pvp battles are fun as hell
>big pvp battles
Always happen in instanced or isolated areas. Your average "pvp main" wants to gank people way below his gear and skill-level. They always get their shit pushed in by equals. So frick off with your pvp-focused shit. Any pvp focused mmo ditched that idea in order to survive.
>Your average griefer
ok
Sandbox MMORPG is one of those things players THINK they like conceptually, but give up the moment they get their ass handed to them.
Sandbox MMOs are pretty fun when they don't run face-first into shit design then expect everyone else to deal with it.
Nobody wants pvp in a social game you anti-social moron. People want a place to hang out and talk while doing low effort group activities; like fricking hide and seek or scavenger hunts.
Genre was dead as soon as they started fricking with communication.
In game chat has always been frankly embarrassing. Even MUDs had basic channels for level ranges and classes as the bare minimum.
lol
lmao
he thinks people care about pvp
when all the games that sell a shit ton are PvE focused and pvp players are always a minority besides shooters like fortnite or some shit
he's probably one of those gays that levels a stealth class and then goes to the lowest level zone he can flag for pvp and ganks people 30 levels under him and calls that "pvp" lol
Like I'm not completely against PvP or anything
just make it a big weekly event or something like WoE in RO
i think LOTRO did it right where "PvP" involved players taking control of some other faction in specific instanced areas for it instead of the gay gankfest classic WoW turned into. morons will parrot streamers about how aw dood it's so fun it leads to epic fights or wahtever but 99% of the time you just get ganked by a dude 30 levels higher than you and no one cares because everyone else is too busy raidlogging or AFKing in a city
There is no decline, third are just more mmorpgs to spread the players between.
there*
persistent open world mmo combining mgs peace walker, mgs5, helldivers 2, ghost recon wildlands, and (combat game with good vehicle combat)
i unironically believe that to solve the problems with mmos today that we need to lean even further into the industry's worst ideas and break through to the other side
1 character per player limit
limiting the amount of content you can play each day to negate poopsocking
one-time purchase model with cosmetic cash shop
content that is designed to filter bad players, failing the run still counts towards your daily content limit
fully open-world, but with a small open world that doesn't disperse the playerbase so much that it feels dead. dungeons, even endgame ones, should be non-instanced
You're a moron. Anyone that uses the term poopsock needs to reevaluate where they are in life.
when i played the horizon XI launch not long ago it was not uncommon for people to play 16-18 hours a day, with the top 10% commonly playing up to 20 hours a day
when people get into a competition of who is going to get the most done each day, you end up in a race to the bottom where only people who destroy their own real lives will win. people who are even remotely normal don't want to play games where that is the accepted common sense, so they quit. the "lifer" contingent that likes the game more than anybody else ends up killing it
Who gives a shit about world firsters? Just play your own game. Why do you care what anyone else is doing?
you are ill-suited to mmos and wouldn't make it, sorry kid
More like your autism is what drives away normal players and kills your game. Guilds and raids are the gayest shit ever.
>oh look, it's 8 o'clock on a Tuesday or Thursday, time to play my video game
Get a fricking life, bro.
that is a healthy form of boomer participation which is not even remotely related to the kind of psychotic gestalt that tightly woven mmo communities hypnotize themselves into
the difference between an mmo and a normal multiplayer game is that there is a culture that the players share, and that culture is derived from what kind of things the game rewards
i know a non-player like you doesn't really get this because you were never there, but even just limiting people to playing only 12-13 hours a day would be a tremendous improvement to the psychosocial element of mmos
It's their life, you homosexual, they can do what they want. If it bothers you then you can stay up 21 hours. Sounds like a fricking skill issue, you loser.
low-agreeableness zoomer, your response is extremely predictable. you think that nobody effects each other and that everyone is an island unto themselves. if this was real there would be absolutely no attraction to mmos.
for an mmo to be successful it needs to be able to contain and direct people's passions, and passionate people compete with each other, looking up to winners and looking down on losers
when the culture of the game is about worshipping people who ruin themselves, normies quit
without normies, the game dries up and dies
mastering normie retention is about creating a culture of respecting "winners" that aren't poopsocking themselves into a coma
You might be the gayest homosexual I've ever met. You complain about people just wanting to have fun because they aren't competing with everybody but you want those that do compete to be hamstrung so you can keep up with them? I don't usually get this worked up about video games but I would punch you in the face if I knew you in real life. What a selfish wienersucker. I'm glad you'll never be as good as actual gamers.
He's right though. Catering to poopsockers destroys games.
How does allowing someone to play as much as they want catering to a certain demographic? Because hampering play time would cater to midwit homosexuals like you that care about prestige but don't want to put in the time to achieve it.
You'd figure it out if you weren't handicapped, or more likely, an autistic poopsocker yourself.
>telling others they can't practice so you have more of a shot against them
Fricking pathetic, bro.
you sound like the kind of boomer subhuman that buys boosts and then justifies it by saying its part of player interaction or some equally stupid shit
Why do you care what other players are doing? Sounds like the seething whimpers of a poorgay.
How would you know? You don't read it.
>how does community in a multiplayer game affect you personally
Show me on the doll where the bad man leveling faster hurt you.
>leveling
irrelevant noncontent. When you get benched just for being non meta class your or when you have to buy rmt boosts as a new player just to have enough poopsock rating to do endgame content you know the game is pozz
I've recorded months of in-game time in several mmos and have never raided a single time. homosexuals like you are why everything else is shitty because they always prioritize end game for the losers willing to devote their life to a game. Enjoy your scheduled raid times. Try not to get kicked by other people even more autistic than you.
>I do nothing but erp with my fellow furgay trannies for months
should I be impressed?
Do you think anyone is at all impressed when you beat naxxramas?
certainly more impressive than having virtual sex with obese incels pretending to be women in goldshire. I will never understand why you subhumans love giving your dogshit opinions on things you dont even play
Yeah, I never did that. But you have had designated video game times that you needed to show up for or else you'd be kicked from the group. That's much better.
why do you keep replying. You already embarassed yourself more than you embarass your dad when the topic of his "former" son comes up
Because I'm trans and eat poop
I eat da poopy poop
Brilliant reply.
is you too, trying to manufacture consensus. You're such a gay that I wouldn't even piss on you if you were on fire. You are nothing to me or anyone else in the world. If you die, no one would care. They wouldn't even line up for you in the game. You'd just be dead and no one would give a shit. Great life you're living.
No I'm not.
Then screenshot it and show the (you)s.
Okay
I have a wife and kids. My friends from 10 years ago have their guild. Nothing you do can shame me but please, keep enjoying such a pathetic life that you have to schedule when you're going to play with your toys. I want to help you guys but I know you deserve everything you (don't) get.
>antisocial autist doesn't understand why group activities have to be scheduled
Good job shooting yourself in the foot.
>group activities with smelly neckbeard autists on the other side of the world
Yeah, hard pass. I have a family now. In 20 years, maybe you'll make officer in the guild. But as soon as servers go down, your entire existence goes with it. Nothing lasts forever and I'm going to love the uptick in suicides once the wow servers go down and people realize they don't have an identity of their own.
>He thinks I'm talking about MMOs
This thread is about mmos, you stupid homosexual. But since you want to go meta, I'll say that coordinating events with friends is gay as frick. When you have a family, you do things with them. Any dad who spends time with friends is a failed father. Luckily, you'll never have to worry about having a family so keep doing what you're doing.
Antisocial autist confirmed.
So antisocial that I started a family. But not you playing your scheduled video games. There's nothing wrong with you.
You're the one who said that you're not spending time with friends.
Because I have a family. Go suck your friends' dicks.
Not an excuse.
Yes it literally is. You can't even talk to a woman much less marry and impregnate one.
No it's not. You're going to fail hard at being a father and the best part is you're incapable of understanding why.
Surely the video game addict on Ganker has it all figured out. Enlighten us to your brilliant parenting tips.
>implying video games are my primary hobby
>implying I've played much this week
>implying it is in any way normal to heap all of your social burdens onto one person
>needing friends to talk about your fee fees
Somehow it keeps getting gayer and gayer.
You're going to get divorced and cry about it to MGTOWs because you couldn't see it coming. It's going to be hysterical.
Keep making fun of what my life might end up like while I call you out for how your life actually is this very second. You're pathetic.
>might
I'm telling you it will because you don't understand what you're doing.
Yes, clearly am autist wow raider knows more about parenting than myself. I was so blind to not see it before.
homie you've been blogging in this thread for like an hour about your family, why don't you go spend time with them instead of responding to that guy if you like them so much
or do you want to come show them the thread after you get the last word. do you think your wife's son will be impressed by that?
>you can't watch a kid and shitpost at the same time
You're like an alien race that doesn't understand the lives of normal people and is enraged by it.
There is literally nothing normal about having no friends because you got someone pregnant and bragging on the Internet about how you grind on a bunch of MMOs and are proud of it. You are literally more broken inside than anyone you're accusing of being so.
And yet my life is richer and more fulfilling than yours ever be. Weird.
If you really thought that you wouldn't be here.
>wow servers
I can't even imagine the uproar of people who spend +10 years on that game.
Alright homie.
The period button.
For fricks sake.
no homie
the enter key
you're welcome
>Get a fricking life,
Unironic normalgays still exist?
>What can save MMOs?
Getting rid of the idea that its a game and treating it as developing a living world, which is what an MMO is supposed to be. You can't layer on all these systems that have absolutely nothing at all to do with the game world around the players and expect that they'll actually enjoy their time there.
At a subconscious level these superficial worlds that just act as window dressing for token collection and leveling systems cause an uncanny valley reaction the player isn't conscious of. As soon as they've gotten the carrot on a stick they suddenly become aware of it, that they've been bamboozled, hoodwinked. Having a shiny carrot to play with in a world that's so unconvincing and fake means it has no actual value and is worthless. So the game bleeds subs like crazy until the next patch introduces bigger and better carrots.
Players who insist they like this model are really just the same as californian hipsters that insist they love kambucha even though its proven a disgusting sham time and again in blind taste tests. Players simply do not know what they want from games because they don't even have enough sense of self to develop real tastes and preferences, only superficial and hollow narcissism.
Give them an MMO they'd actually want to live in if it was real and they'll enjoy it more than anything they claim they would. Human delusion can't fight genetics for very long. All it takes is someone with the fricking balls to develop a game like that.
>Getting rid of the idea that its a game and treating it as developing a living world
yeah, shit has not evolved in more than 20 years
it's still Everquest
Nothing.
WoW destroyed any potential innovation in the genre
Uh, excuse me? Final Fantasy XIV currently ranks as the world's top MMO, and with over 30 million players, is one of the most-played online games right now. It's become a legitimate cultural phenomenon having references in many other games and TV shows. FFXIV has the best community of any online game with more mods than Skyrim and is making record profits for Square Enix. The MMO genre is back and the only ones complaining are from WoW.
The definition of that one image I see being posted on Ganker every now and then where they guy posts a character before and after the mods. He DMs the person saying something like "Damn you looked cuter before the mods" and the person says "Frick you"
It amazes me people MOD their game to make the characters looks far worse...
(Btw if someone has that screenshot please post it here, I should have saved it before but I forgot)
Seconding.
>(Btw if someone has that screenshot please post it here, I should have saved it before but I forgot)
people pay $15 a month to play second life, when they can play it for free
How does it work that when you mod the game you can see other people's modded characters? Or maybe I'm not understanding.
XIV has something called MARE which lets you share a link and anyone with that link can see the mods of everyone who has the link
at least, i think that's how it works. i haven't played XIv in like 2 years.
Nothing. MMOs succeeded because of what the world and internet were like in the 2000s. Everyone is a datamining tryhard min-maxer now and massive world's with online play are no longer a novelty. Asking how to save MMOs is like asking how to save the horse as our main method of transportation. I'm so fricking happy I got to experience wow during the launch of TBC, it was a truly magical experience, but that world is gone.
The death of social media and the rise of working from home would be the only thing to bring back mmos
Action combat and console focus.
Nobody wants to press the mouse key to use an attack then press a fricking number to heal.
Are there mobile mmos for me to waste time at work on?
MMOs would benefit from moving away from being dedicated RPGs and towards a game platform and design system like Roblox. The RPG part could be subgames.
But too many publishers have nostalgia goggles for wow's original success so they're not willing to risk the kind of investment the game would initially require to compete with roblox.
It would be easy money for microsoft, amazon or meta but their leadership is a chain of incompetence.
You don't save a genre by making games in a different genre
Dark Souls Online
Unironically releasing it on consoles.
>that headline
what the frick year is this, that shit happened a decade ago
nothing
only two types of mmo games exist: erp or asiaticgrind
nobody wants to asiaticgrind and no game puts emphasis on erp first
New World is the best currently active MMO and no one plays it. That should tell you enough about the MMO audience, they don't want good games just slop with cute looking characters so they can roleplay
New World is trash though.
The only fun things about New World is the lifeskilling but you have to actually play the rest of the game to do the higher level stuff.
Roleplaying was the whole point of MMORPGs you dithering buffoon.
>New World
It's RYL2 but broken, i refunded it in 10 minutes of gameplay.
Even Maple Story is better.
One that is actually good in every aspect, the most popular ones on the market right now are decent in some areas but suck in others.
the fun of MMORPGs is the social aspect and discovering the world. the social aspect has been killed by discord and discovering the world has been killed by the fact that everyone in modern gaming is trying to be 100% optimized and must do everything the most efficient way. games are solved basically the second they come out
we'll never go back to the good old days of vanilla wow and before where nobody had a clue what they were doing and playing on shitty internet which made everything more challenging/fun
>discovering the world
nobody cares about this crap in mmos
you are NOT the target audience
my point exactly.
>the fun of MMORPGs is the social aspect
As applied to a game.
>and discovering the world.
No. There are MMOs where I did not give two fricks about the world I was playing in but still had fun.
Vanilla was fricking shit by the way.
An mmo already exits, did exist for everything you gays are whining for. You don't play it because you don't actually want it, you just want to b***h.
just make it a law that a proportion of profits from a mmo must mandatorily be dumped back into the mmo so the publishers dont constantly frick you over by taking your 'support' and putting it into mmoslop2:the_re_cashshopping to make you paypig all over again.
it's hilarious because this is the exact problem with FFXIV for all the success it's had as the new leader of the genre, all that money gets dumped into other Final Fantasy games like XVI that bomb because no one working on them likes Final Fantasy or actually wanted to make a Final Fantasy game.
it happens to every 'good' mmo. it makes big money, then that money magically disapears into shitty projects the company thinks will make even more money, then they pretend they dont have to make good content for their money maker because its a money maker and their players are all addicted drug addicts and OOPS everyone quit, guess they just didnt like that game for no reason tee hee.
ffxiv is dead, troony
MMOs need a better class of customers or it's ogre for them.
Nothing, they've already been replaced by different genres that cover the different aspects of mmos that people played them for because they had no other choice. Online world to hangout in? VRchat. Online skinner box? Tons of gacha and live service games for that. Online co-op with random people? Plenty of games. Once the novelty wore off and other games popped up that had the aspects that people liked, people moved on and the genre died off.
Ghostcrawler (Greg Street) is currently making an MMO that blends WoW with a survival crafting game, there are "red shards" which are conventional MMO instances with static environments full of players and "blue shards" which are like Minecraft servers with proc-gen environments. I hate to admit it but it's probably the way forward.
I dont think the guy who got butthurt about Riot devs being more competent than him is going to save the genre.
make more elins
Let it die. MMOs were a mistake.
Modern MMOs being reduced to "everything that isn't endgame is a waste of time" is what really killed the genre. The moment a new MMO releases 90% of the world space and content in it is instantly outdated because you can only support endgame functions.
They're reduced to that because the leveling content sucks compared to the endgame content.
Maybe if you're autistic. Raids appeal to the sweatiest losers ever known to gaming. That's why they're prioritized, because the sweaty morons are the ones who will show up at the same time every week to play. It's people like you that made zones boring in favor of raids.
Autists enjoy repetitive low skill grinds.
You only consider zones to be a grind because you never read any quest dialog at all because you're an autistic moron that only cares about progressing.
I consider the WoW model of zones a grind because they're uninteresting, unengaging bullshit, have been since day fricking one, and quests make it even worse. Reading quest text doesn't improve shit.
How would you know? You never read it.
How would you know? You've never played a game without them.
I literally played MMOs before quests were a regular thing, let alone how you progressed. They were almost always bad and a grind back then too, dumbfrick.
No one cares. You think you can compare call of duty to pacman next, dipshit?
>you only think zones are grindy because you don't read quests!!!
>no I played before quests were a thing
>NOONE CARES
Shut the frick up moron.
Compare pong and fortnite next. You're so fricking stupid, man.
You're moronic. MMOs are barely removed from the days of Everquest in terms of how they operate.
Except for quests, apparently. Compare baldurs gate 3 with fallout 1 next.
they're a grind by definition because WoW devs made them the primary way to level so like 80% of them are just inane filler garbage, go bring me 8 drops from the mobs we populated in this area type shit.
Then every game is a grind, you stupid butthole. By definition games are a way to kill time. You're stupid.
No, he's right, again. Inane no-skill tasks that take only time and not effort are exactly why it's grindy.
And you only feel that way because your moron autistic brain doesn't want to read and get into the story. You just want to ding and move on. The problem is your fricking brain.
Story never, ever, EVER makes bad gameplay worth it. The problem is you making excuses for shit design.
And how would you improve it, master of game design?
>don't interact with any story, just collect your bear asses and leave
>Why is this game so boring?
>shockedpikachuface
>And how would you improve it, master of game design?
Never take a single fricking cue from MMO quest design.
And what game would you say has good quest design that you'd like to see implemented in mmos?
Baldur's Gate 2 is my gold standard for RPG quests so that.
Though I suppose Arcanum is better at them, now that I think about it. It's just that the actual gameplay of Arcanum is rancid dogshit and makes that pointless.
And are you smart enough to understand why that doesn't work in a game with thousands of player characters? You're just seething because you don't want to interact with the story and see it as one fetch quest after another. Mmos are about making your own fun. I'm sorry your brain is broken and you can't do that.
>And are you smart enough to understand why that doesn't work in a game with thousands of player characters?
It does though. What it doesn't do is pad sub numbers by addicting subhuman filth.
>You're just seething because you don't want to interact with the story
I am refusing to interact with the story because it's consistently shit. On the rare occasions it's not it doesn't improve the gameplay whatsoever. I'm sorry for your disability that allows devs to jingle keys in front of you and distract you from how bad what you're playing is.
>Mmos are about making your own fun
Congratulations, you now know why UO was better than nearly every MMO that came after it.
Your brain is fricking broken. It's like you're complaining about your house always being hot but you refuse to turn on the a/c. For someone who thinks all mmos are trash, you're sure seething enough to keep constantly posting about it. Now why do you think that is?
>Your brain is fricking broken.
No, yours is. You literally do not understand why MMOs are designed the way they are. It's not an engine or medium limitation.
>For someone who thinks all mmos are trash,
I don't, though. I think the questing experience is universally trash. Sometimes at the end games stop forcing that on you and give you things to do that require coordination and a level of skill so they stop being shit.
It's absolutely broken because you're obviously too moronic to understand that the devs prioritizing end game bullshit for homosexuals like you are why zones become lackluster. You can get your social interaction without dealing with 40 autists just itching to kick you as soon as you make a mistake. Raids are the gayest shit imaginable and always will be.
Zones didn't 'become' lackluster. They were lackluster from the moment the design intent changed from 'place you go to to do the thing you want' to 'place you must go to to do a bunch of really boring bullshit so you can eventually do the thing you want' and that happened long before MMOs prioritized endgame.
That's literally your broken brain on display. I've been trying to tell you that only moronic autists care about end game content more than the rest of the game. You are fricked in the head, that's why you can't enjoy it. You see it as a chore to get where you want to go as opposed to a journey that brings you there. Your mind is fricked by constant overstimulization.
It IS a chore. It's always been a chore. It is literally all on you that you get joy out of unskilled timewasters.
So you're somehow better because you devote even more time and effort into these games while not enjoying it? Yeah, that sounds like a totally reasonable thing to do. I'll go one further. Not only have I never raided, I've never been max level in an mmo. Not one single time because the higher up you go, the more autists you have to deal with. Case in point, you.
You literally do not understand why MMOs are designed the way they are. Let me explain this to you in words your pitiful autistic brain can understand:
Questing and MMO zones are designed the way they are because there is a large contingent of players who will get addicted from doing small repetitive tasks. This increases player retention. This also strongly correlates with autism.
So playing a game and enjoying it is autism but running calculations, meta gaming and playing at set times every week is what well adjusted people do? Is that your argument?
It's not an argument. It's literal, straight from the horse's mouth fact.
>straight from the horse's mouth fact.
That's some bullshitting horse right there
that's putting the cart before the horse. MMO gameplay was simple and repetitive because of technological limitations. eventually when games started making lots of money, kosher sociopaths figured out all these little psychological tricks and began designing content around pumping metrics like that.
in Diablo 2, teleporting to town has a casting time so you can't just TP back to safety at the drop of a hat like say when a boss is kicking your ass or a pull goes wrong.
in Diablo 4, teleporting to town has a casting time because their player metrics are better that way. that's why in one of the first patches for D4 they made teleporting to town take like 2 seconds longer. just making the game more annoying because those two seconds for every TP will add up across the entire playerbase and make their metrics look better.
>uses Diablo 2 for a counterexample
>A wrong counterexample
D2 was one of the first games designed with any of this in mind by the devs' own admission, even if it was limited to loot, and TP scrolls are instant.
wrong
Boot the fricking game up. TP scrolls are instant and if the portal isn't blocked you can click it instantly to TP back. You'd know that if you played the game.
>Interact with story
>It's boring and bad
>Gameplay is still bad
Congratulations, you have discovered why WoW leveling is shit.
It's funny that you think MMO quests have ever made an interesting story.
after cata 90% of the story in these things is "oh no a thing happened i need 8 boar asses okay thanks for the boar asses here's the next quest hub where you go collect more boar asses for me"
after shadowlands the story became "oh no a thing happened i need 8 boar asses btw im gay and trans"
>90% of sports is trying to score a goal
>we need something new to keep it fresh, maybe more romance options!
nice goalpost moving, troony
Blade and Soul was maximum grinding and it was infinitely better than fricking around gambling for loot you may never see.
>Blade and Soul
>Good
as opposed to the thrilling high skilled gameplay raids provide like
>use the exact same spec everyone else that plays your class uses because youtubers figured out it's the most efficient spec
>use the exact same rotation everyone else that plays your class uses because youtubers figured out it's the most efficient rotation
>don't stand in the glowing red circles of bad stuff
really thrilling stuff
It's literally just a slot machine with extra steps and no actual reward. The gambling aspect of gear adds another pathetic layer to raidgays' psyche.
it's just sad because the genre got taken over by gambling addicts basically, it's why it revolves around shit like this now
The issue is it's a self-fulfilling deal. Community congregates towards endgame content because a game doesn't focus on the midgame. Future dev see this and make their game with an endgame focus. Repeat again with the next future dev. Repeat again with the future dev after that Then another future dev tries to have less of an endgame focus and the game does badly because players have been conditioned to only care about endgame. That then reinforces the notion that players only care about endgame.
leveling content IS the game. "endgame content" is just raidlogging and fighting the same static encounters over and over again. this is another issue with MMOs today.
>leveling content IS the game.
Then almost every MMO ever made is utter dogshit as a game.
which is why they suck, yes. they all copy the WoW TBC-onwards formula of making 90% of the game irrelevant time wasting fluff and focusing entirely on the last 10% of the content. it's why they're so boring and unengaging and why older MMOs that didn't do this are still so popular today.
You say that like vanilla wasn't boring and unengaging while leveling too. I fricking HATED leveling in it and EQ.
then you don't like RPGs, you want to play some other genre with no progress where everything is handed to you immediately. try an action game or something, this genre isn't for you, let alone MMOs.
I like RPGs more than anyone you've ever met. That's why I have zero respect for bad games that force me to grind.
>i love a genre about grinding more than anyone you've ever met which is why i have zero respect for a genre that makes me grind
ok
RPGs are not about grinding and you do not understand the genre if you think they are.
yeah all the numbers and progress are about as important to RPGs as jumping is to Mario or shooting is to Doom, i am very smart
Those aren't linked to grinding anywhere outside of bad RPGs, early RPGs before anyone had any idea what the frick they were doing, and MMOs.
RPGs are not about grinding. They are about emulating the tabletop RPG experience, which remains the purest expression of the genre. D&D players do not tell you to grind levels to "catch up" if you join a table mid-campaign.
you're talking about CRPGs, a completely different genre, this thread is for MMOs. why can't you morons read the OP before you bungle into the thread with such moronic posts
Someone should make a CRPG with action combat that is massively multiplayer. What would we call such a genre?
A laggy mess.
I would like to see an MMO without leveling, just horizontal progression where you unlock new builds and playstyles to fit niche roles. Everyone would be able to pick up the game and play together without needing to grind and catch-up.
That's pretty much Guild Wars 1.
Yea let's take GW1 and make it an MMO
Guild Wars is pretty much the case study in horizontal progression. However, I don't think you can just keep adding skills forever - it just turns in to power creep when you keep trying to one-up the old stuff.
Shame Guild Wars isn't an MMO
GW1 and DDO had the right idea, but geared it towards a smaller group of already familiar players who would then tackle content in co-op fashion.
Wasn't the only "massively multiplayer" bit of DDO the hub city? I could've sworn everything else, from the encounters and dungeons to the overworld, was instanced to your four player party.
Albion Online.
Albion has a shit-ton of grindy leveling and awful asshomosexuals gameplay, no thanks.
Elden ring but mmo = evolution of the genre
even fricking skyrim but online (f76) is more fun that wow (inb4 newbie tourists still listening to internethistorians outdated shit opinion)
elden ring = mmo - evolution of the genre
>got into ffxiv
>everyone just hanging around in this one area in one of the main cities
>standing next to each other not talking
>world is barren of all players
>can walk around for hours without seeing another player
>this is the 2nd most popular MMORPG
The genre isn't in the decline, ites dead.
Free and open source community projects. The state of the genre is defined through the common consumer denominator, steering development toward profiteering and retention treadmills
Design content around an average player and not the top 1%. When the only meaningful stuff to do in your game is something that requires, at the minimum, 8 people and hours of preparation, I'm not gonna play it.
Vast majority of people play either solo or with a small group of 2 to 3 frinds. Make content around that and also try to "force" natural socialization between players.
>try to "force" natural socialization between players.
you are going to get a bad experience like you cant even believe when you LFG into parties of people whose culture is completely incompatible with your own. this isn't 2002
Maybe "force" was a bad word, but simply make it so that people naturally team up as they play since it benefits them and makes it fun. Fill the world with group events like the ones in GW2. The way people (sometimes) coordinated was a perfect example of how it should go.
insofar as passionate players see the challenges of the game as a task to overcome as quickly and thoroughly as possible, whatever is beneficial behavior to players itself will be mined out and duplicated en masse without any of the associated behavior that you're trying to encourage
when you are playing with people who are hardly literate, when you're playing with people whose culture is to loathe reading and hate people who type, when you're playing with people who are from china and see your english as a rude form of intrusion in their community, you will be very happy if you are able to behave like a soulless robot by joining the group wordlessly and having everybody fill their roles until the loot appears and the party instantly dissolves
an mmo without a common culture cannot provide the kind of impromptu socialization that made mmos tolerable in the early days
In such a case, the genre is doomed and should just die.
I will fully admit I was never that much of an MMO player, but I always liked the idea of a shared word in which people can play together. Sad that such a thing seems impossible nowadays.
yeah it just doesn't work the way you hoped, or at least has not in 20 years
Works in Warframe. Take out the try hard bullshit and let people actually work together and they will get along fine.
Only I can save MMOs, but I'm not really feeling it.
AI, AI powered npcs will kill the point of MMOs, at best you'll play them coop
i'm playing a single player WoW server with player bots that's pretty fun. it randomly generates bots that run around the world you can invite to team up for quests but it can also pilot your alts, so you can create and build up an entire WoW party from scratch. some kind of AI stuff to influence their behavior/flavor, even give them funny character things to say while they cast spells or rest would be really neat. or have them respond to ingame events like holidays and whatnot.
also holy shit i hope the stupid homosexual that fricked up the captcha gets raped
One of the biggest issues with MMOs these days is that everything gets datamined and everything gets min/maxed and has guides for everything, before things even come out.
The only way you can solve this is for someone to invent tech that enables streaming of every asset in the game, so that data isn't even inherently available to people. And then you combine that with regular enough updates and/or procedurally generated dungeons and bosses, where it draws from like a pool with 1000 different layouts and 1000 different bosses with 1000 different abilities, so you can never know what exactly you will face, and you actually have to adapt on the fly.
Pair that with randomized overworld and you have your mystery adventure. The only information you should have is about your equipment and character.
Nothing. MMORPGs lost their hook as everything has permanent progression and if anything MMOs have regressed in terms of player count in any area.
doomed to further gacha-fy
remove endgames. remove multiplayer.
the ideal MMO is already here
Oh frick I just had an idea:
>mobile
>server/room based
>players can create their own "server" and rooms on the server and decide what spawns ( devs balance game by tweaking spawn and drop rates )
>autobattler combat system
>in depth character building ( think PoE )
>robust support for chat, images, videos in the in-game chat, just like Discord
>players can set their world permissions, just like Discord i.e. public, invite only, PvP enabled, full loot PvP, etc
Basically transform discord into an mmo. The idea is that people idle in the game and "play it" and talk.
It's absolutely awful but I bet people would play it. Just give it a good character creator, transmog, and weeb aesthetics
>Basically transform discord into an mmo. The idea is that people idle in the game and "play it" and talk.
This has already been done many times before. Habbo Hotel was basically this, for example. Club Penguin was another one.
MMOs mostly sucked wiener, the main appeal was just a good way for neets/neckbeards to socialize. That niche has largely been filled by other games/things like discord, so there isn't that innate appeal anymore, and thus they inevitably flop.
Beside the manifest problem, there's also the fact that the major MMOs like wow/ffxiv moved more toward being lobby games/raidgay games than as actual massive, overworld focused RPGs.
WoW SoD is probably the most casual version of WoW they've ever released and I still don't have the time to play it any more.
Sucks.
bring back inconvenience. people didn't realize how much community building and putting effort towards something mattered when you had road bumps along the way. I forgot how many times I chatted with my guild during /oom downtime or automated travel that would take minutes. you cannot be 100% engaged all the time.
that's why Everquest had stuff like boats taking an hour to go to and from or medding taking a long time, with the need for grouping that's where stuff like socialization would happen. but that won't work now because of SJW net nannies frothing at the mouth for any reason to get other people banned from games and stuff like Discord. no one wants to socialize in games now, too troublesome and risky.
>no one wants to socialize in games now, too troublesome and risky.
and there's the answer why mmos are dead
Desire to create a virtual world worth exploring and playing in, instead of a Skinner box designed for maximum engagement and microtransaction revenue.
In short: not happening
>World gets randomized every month
>World: Biomes, dungeon entrances
>There are classes specialized in overworld
>There are classes specialized in dungeons
>Dungeons are randomized every time you enter them
>Dungeons have stealth/puzzle/etc segments
>Overworld has monster hunter-tier monsters which can be tackled with said specialized classes classes
I have tons of ideas for my dream mmo, list would be too long.
Hopefully nothing.
MMO quest-based story progression:
- Kill mooks
- Kill stronger named mook
- "Hero, their treachery runs deeper than you know!"
- Kill elite mooks
- Infiltrate mook dungeon
- Kill mega boss of all mooks
repeat
come up with something else for your MMO that isn't an assembly line leveling experience that builds up to an endgame that consists of grinding raids for 0.001% DPS upgrades and dressup
Whenever the overworld stopped demanding your respect and killed you if you didn't do so.
get rid of the auction houses
trading post already crashed and burned in OSRS and the forums are ghost towns so people would be forced to *gasp* interact with other players
In not wasting my time trying to get people to trade me. Spent two hours for one item like I did in path of exile and the grand exchange in old school runescape should be how all games are and not action houses.
>I need it NOW!!!
>what do you mean there's intrinsic worth to something because I have to either get it myself or find a seller? I want it NOW!!!
I like games that respect the players time if you don't that's cool meet
>respects the player's time
have you completed udnerground pass? or mournings end pt 2? or one small favor?
I'm 2079 total lvl with quest cape but I should have expanded. I don't like things that take me out of the gameplay loop. I want to play the fricking game not waste my time trying to get an item
ah, a poopsock
got it
[spoilers] Wasting time getting an item from other players -is- part of the game. It's a simulated world, not a cookie clicker [spoilers]
MMOs are simply not for you then. They have to go back to No Life Kings as their audience and most of the issues will fix themselves.
Sadly, they will never go back to that because too many normies who will cry "respect my time!! You don't understand, the game has to respect me! You have to let me play your game how I WANT."
Bring back player stands.
I forget what mmo I would play but I would set up my stand when I went afk and come back to my stuff sold. Or if I was lucky enough I would see people walk up to my stand and buy stuff or ignore it.
Ragnarok Online is the big one I can think of but lots of KMMOs had bazaars where you could list items with a sale price and be afk. Had a whole class dedicated to that too.
Hopefully nothing. MMO is an outdated genre with no good games and a greedy subscription push.
A time machine.
Why stop it? I have hated MMOs for 20 fricking years. They were neat for like 5 or so years then they overstayed their welcome
Nothing. Games are meant to be played and either "pushed as far as possible" (arcade/hi scores) or "completed" (modern gaming/completion of story/100 percent completion for the hyper autists). MMOs are inherently flawed in their design since they are designed solely around "retention" (subscription model, get people coming back no matter what) and as such are not enough like games but more akin to work. This hijacks your monkey brain into a dopamine release that it can't really get from other sources, because not only are you tricking yourself into easy entertainment and video game feedback loops, but you also get the bonus of doing "work". It's equally empty and satisfying.
MMOs were made solely with the purpose of keeping as many people paying for the opportunity to keep doing things, over and over, to whatever end they might deem (raids or ERP or whatever else people do nowadays). Not a single one that has any good content isn't overshadowed by the grind. The grind is what makes them, but because they are designed around the grind, they end up being nothing more than grind. They don't have substance beyond tricking the brain into feeling like it is doing something meaningful. It also explains why they are rife with so many neets and trannies; that level of grind can give even the most empty lives some sort of meaning. For anyone who doesn't work. you'll go insane (I don't mean waging, I mean meaningful (to you) work). We already know that troons are largely autistic, and it's another bonus layer for them to live out their wish fulfillment and satisfy their AGP fetishes. Not to mention the added levels of grooming (which is their favorite pastime and how they reproduce) made possible by today's gaming climate of discord and in-game pandering.
All of that said, sure, parts of them can be fun. But they bank on your nostalgia for better times (if you're older) or your instinctual need to belong/follow trends (for the zoomies).
TL,DR: MMOs are trash.
new mmos have to stop trying to be games, mmos are glorified chatrooms and the more complicated you make them the less fun they become
Why hasn't someone made an MMO that's basically just dungeons and raiding?
No leveling process. No "you have to be level 15 before you can enter the first dungeon, then get access to a new dungeon every 5/10 levels after). You go straight from simple dungeons to complex dungeons.
Have hero unit bots that have specific behaviors and AI for people who wanted to play an MMO alone.
That way you can balance the game entirely around party based gameplay, rather than having to worry about "solo" experience.
Multiplayer games exist, MMOs are for a certain "feel."
These people want to "feel" like they're performing meaningful work. The grind is baked into the appeal for them. They are tricked by our society and by devs who take advantage of their need to feel fulfilled via work.
I mean, have you seen a tab-target holy trinity based multiplayer game? None come to mind.
Goalposts are being moved now. That gameplay is shit, why would you want that?
>tab target bad
lol
>completely ignoring the other half
Tab target is clearly not the issue here. Bland mmo gameplay where you wait for cooldowns to refresh and press buttons is absolute shit. It's why xenoblade combat fricking sucks and I'm tired of people acting like it was ever good.
Wasn't that Vindictus, which was bad for unrelated reasons? But yes, I'd play a game like this in a heartbeat.
Vindictus was an action combat game. I'm talking an actual tab-target GCD holy trinity MMO with the overworld leveling cut out.
A return to hardcore shit. Attunements, long quest lines, forced group quests, etc.
I miss attunements because you generally would do the whole thing with the same group of people making friendships.
unironically nothing
most who still play mmo's nowadays have played since they were in middle school and it's why your average player is in their mid to late 20's
all they can do now is attract other players from other mmo's, like how xiv did with wow
every fricking game nowadays being a live service and having a dumb battlepass is what killed mmo's, they realized they can keep their playerbase not by constantly adding new shit, but instead have people pay for the privilege of obtaining turds with different coats of painting by playing
You'd need to somehow kill all datamining/metagaming which is probably impossible.
Make better combat than the usual tab targeting, if people can't play it on their dialup then oh well.
Actual significant differences between classes instead of heavily overlapping within the same role.
>You'd need to somehow kill all datamining/metagaming which is probably impossible.
You can, with randomizing literally everything every week/month
Fair that impossible isn't the right word but I can't see a way to do it that wouldn't be total dogshit in practice
>Make everything serverside, game runs like shit
>Make everything random, game is a mess
>You'd need to somehow kill all datamining/metagaming which is probably impossible.
It's not impossible per se, but it's probably hard to do. Should be very possible though, because WoW already has a very simple version of streaming assets. I had the same idea as you here
Nothing, WoW killed MMOs.
People are gonna shit on me for this. But I think they should drop the sub-model entirely and focus on making frequent events that encourage casual group play. Just make an MMO genshin/second life minus the gacha. The endgame raidgayging is always the worst part of current MMOs.
sub-model is a necessary evil, else the game would be flooded with shit-tier people.
Not true look at ffxiv, those people suck ass at their own game
It's not about the skill, it's about the attitude. You don't want internet-café south-americans and asian shit in your game.
I agree with you but without the sub, it can get way worse, believe me.
>Attitude
What type of attitude are we talking about here? I've had people in FFXIV where I suggested to someone to not stack with the group if they have an aoe marker, and was proceeded to be called toxic.
Well, if they want to charge a sub, they better release content more than every 6 months that's only fun for less than a fricking week. WoW's patches are the worst content any live service can shit out.
>else the game would be flooded with shit-tier people
Are you implying WoW isn't filled to the brim with them already? The game has the worst community in gaming.
>But I think they should drop the sub-model
t. third world brazilian and/or russian
Action combat. User-hosted custom servers with mods. Alternate rulesets and maps to create a scene like WC3 custom games and NWN modules.
Return to old form and removal of casual pandering. MMOs used to be amazing because they weren't just a fantasy world you could lose yourself in, you could literally LIVE in it and all your grinding and time spent getting gud would pay off by giving you more "power" in the MMO. It was escapism perfectioned. But nowadays, MMOs are filled with garbage microtransactions and made deliberately piss easy to appeal to as broad a playerbase as possible, which effectively ruins the whole point of an MMO. When there's nothing out of your reach anymore, there's no escapism. Then it's just another participation sandbox. The thing is; unless the vidya market crashes into the fricking ground and the EU forces a bunch of anti-scumfrick design laws, this will not be fixed, because these problems are caused by money and money alone.
Modern day vidya industry is practically an industry comparable to selling drugs to kids and said industry is also has so much money, that it's too powerful for legal bodies to combat by now. Any attempts by things such as the EU fixing this will simply be met by lobbying, blackmail, and extortion.
Welcome to dystopia.
Sandbox roleplaying and focus on player-player interaction (not necessarily pvp) instead of WoW raiding bullshit. Make more games like EvE Online, Space Station 13, and Rust. Less games like WoW or FF14.
Addendum to this is that MMOs should stop catering to solo players altogether. It's a waste of development time on turning your MMO into a shitty single player game. The FF14 solo experience is simply objectively worse than just playing a normal FF game. Similar story with every other MMO that makes concessions for solo players.
>The FF14 solo experience is simply objectively worse than just playing a normal FF game.
God yes. If I judged XIV as an FF like its dumbass community tells me to it's the worst by a mile. You lose the resource management, you lose the tactical combat with the sole exception of when you're fighting bosses and then it's only what you personally can manage, you lose rewarding exploration, you lose an equipment system that's more than number go up, and then it makes you deal with shit ass MMO questing and horrendous pacing in lieu of what you'd get out of any other FF. XIV's leveling experience is pure fricking dogshit.
filtered
don't forget that instead of playing the protagonist of the story you play the errand boy that has to go around doing menial fetch quests for the actual main characters who do all the important stuff and move the plot forward
Nothing. What made MMOs great was the sense of discovery and community around them. Now a new game comes out, people spend more time watching youtube videos explaning how to play and the community is scattered around 280 discord servers.
People moved to discord servers because the israelited game moderation steals their product if they try using in game communication.
Law enforcement yet to do frick all about illegal wiretapping.
> in game communication
You mean the text-only chat box that only players currently ingame can read? Why would anyone want to use that?
This guy gets it. Everything from content to class, game life choices, people just leave it to someone else to figure it out for them nowadays. Even when the MMO devs actually make good content, people will always just breeze through them in a week because they saw how to do it by a "pro" moron whose life revolves around teaching morons how to play their games.
Also, casuals who don't even like MMOs are the loudest people when it comes to complaining about the game, and the devs often try to actually appease to them, the changes those complaints bring almost never are what the people who actually likes the games want, and the casuals still won't like the game even after the change was made.
A server reset like once a year should be part of every MMO. Nobody plays a MMO forever and nobody wants to start playing on an old server.
have a nice day
Wrong. ESO still has its horizontal progression and people still play it. What you need is bringing challenges which should make you and your class you're playing to adapt, and not taking away your toys.
this is why Everquest does timelocked progression servers. they start from classic and go on through content over the course of like a year or two and then they spin up new servers and start all over again.
WoW has been doing this with Classic too where it went Vanilla -> TBC -> WotLK, but it has now reached the expansions where people don't give a frick anymore.
WoW never did timelocked progression servers. they've just been adding new tiers of classic. i imagine once they hit like MoP or maybe Legion (WoD sucks dick and no one will play it but people will play Legion) they'll start doing TLP servers. people have been begging for fresh servers for awhile now to the point that they were even rerolling on dead servers to try to simulate fresh launches, it's probably 90% of why anyone bothered with SoD
Blizzard are morons as usual though and think they can milk old content as long as they had to when it took actual time to create the new content.
Expansions should be 1-2 months max.
Everyone should get their tier set after a run so they can do another with it and be done, ready for the next thing.
No matter what they do, I am never going back while they autoban speech with no recourse.
Christ Metzen
I feel like interaction with other players is the only way to keep MMOs alive. Player-made content for in-game rewards, pvp, holding world objectives, etc.
They need to be more casual so that girls (female) will play. There needs to be a reward to it all- an e-girlfriend. Otherwise, why grind for your character to look cool? It's like real life.
A small team of white men knowing how to create an rpg instead of throwing out yet another arpg with disincentivized social prospects.
mmos are flawed in concept
Windstar would have been the perfect MMO with how MMOs turned out right now
>Amazing housing system
>Autistic min-max raiding scene
>pvp could use some polish
>fun open world activities that could be implemented due to hoverboard
>fun dungeons
Wildstar*
>wow clone
This makes every other positive moot.
The housing system was amazing though tbh.
Want an MMO with that level of housing customization. Crazy how no other MMO has copied it yet.
If you hear some of the accounts of people who worked on the game its a miracle it even released.
>grinding is good
>What can save MMOs?
Get rid of discord.
Complete eradication of the internet and wiki users.
Assassins sent directly to your home if you are found consulting a wiki or watching a video about the game.
you've heard of dead on arrival, but have you heard of dead before arrival?
What was Amazon thinking delaying simultaneous global release for this and Throne and Liberty?
im pretty sure its never gonna get released, radio silence for a few months, paired with it doing badly in japan and amazon games shitting themselves is not a good sign
>was hyped for this
>amazon buys publishing right
>immediately lose all interest
motherfrickers couldn't have chosen a worse publisher for the international release
god fricking dammit
add sex
Just make an MMO with an engaging overworld that has people in it please god I'm so tired of everyone just congregating in cities all the time
But that will be always the case. A well designed city/hub is where you get your mates for your expedition.
>save MMOs
why? that shit feels like a work instead of a game
you can't
now everyone expects everyone to do the newest content on the beta servers/watch 300 of each fight and never fail once, play like a machine , and there's nothing "mmorpg" about limited player numbers
None the fact that WOW is still considered the best mmo in this day and age shows it's a dead genre.
Nothing, frick off to your grave
>Unironically defending grindshit
Why is Black personcattle like this?
Nothing, metahomosexuals and in-game shops killed them
Rip in piss MMO's you will not be missed.
This very same article title could have been written in 2011.
Damn, lads. We've been on decline for 13 years now!!!!!
>MMO
MMOs are a bad idea, why save it? It's bound to be a shit show one way or another.
Just make games with customizable open and closed servers, games with leagues, etc.
Mobile based. Ads during loadbtikes from pitifully slow micro sd cards and internet connecrions.
No combat just look around. Exploration points unlock other areas to see. Veichles run on exploration points. Shops too. You spend them initiating and during conversation with anyone. They get yours so have an incentive to talk to you. If they like you take turns starting cinversation. Get more points travelling/exploring with more people.
Minigames. Racing. But mostly sightseeing.
right now nothing i would say, people played mmo's back in the day for a couple of reasons, massive online,community and mystery/discovery
>massive online and community
self explanatory, back in the day you didn't have a lot of places in games where you could talk and have fun for hours, while the community you could find people to play with and find friends, have banter without some homosexual/troony ruining everything or getting banned, but now everyone are on discord, full of mentally ill attention prostitutes and you get banned for saying "homosexual"
>mystery and discovery
back then people were not so obsessed with builds/guides etc, people were having fun and trying their best to be the best at the game, failing and getting up again, finding secrets, raids, etc
Now you can go online and find 1000 guides about X game and how to be the best, find all the secrets, weapons, gears etc, so why bother playing the game then ?
>back then people were not so obsessed with builds/guides etc, people were having fun and trying their best to be the best at the game, failing and getting up again, finding secrets, raids, etc
This was the best part and where most of the fun came from.
People today need to relax and remember what games are supposed to be about.
Subscription or one-time-purchase?
One time purchase because even the sub based ones have cash shops now.
Rust got the open world MMO shit kinda figured out. You have to give players a way to fight back effectively against guilds/clans/better geared players. Without that everything devolves into the biggest clan bullying everybody else. A skilled player in ARK, Rust, and the like can take advantage of clans. Biggest issue with this type of game is the time investment required, it can take hours for a new player just to get a start only for them to get raided/looted in 30 seconds. Not sure how this could work in traditional fantasy MMOs with stats and stuff but i'm sure it could be done given a talented enough developer and enough money.
Stop making 'action' mmos. There have been a dozen+ of them in less than a decade and they all hold niche, small playerbases.
Make a classic, tab targeting mmo that fleshes out lacking/non-existent concepts in current mmos like wow or ff14.
>enemies have weight and mass, when pushed together they dont just clip into one big undulating pile. different enemies require different grouping/ungrouping tactics
>INCREASE group size from 5, to 6-10 potentially
>instead of tanks being 95% of defense and everyone else getting instantly 1-shot, make tanks just pretty tough, and everyone else able to hold their own in emergencies
>go ahead and goof around with hybrid roles, the larger group sizes and less hyper-reliant on tanking system frees up room for some deviation
To fix MMOs you have to fix humanity because their appeal is that they are social games (The genre is after all named by the fact it focuses on Multi-Player) but way too many people end up wanting to play them anti-socially because they end up hating 90% of the playerbase for some reason of another, if they don't go solo then they stay in their designated circlejerk Guild (Or equivalent). A good MMO is designed so that player cooperate and communicate in order to win (Even if it is against other players) and that can be a issue when the mechanics end up being so complicated your average casual just plain ignores them and if your playerbase is so autistic it can not communicate to eachother properly or when they start to treat eachother as disposable.
The natural evolution of MMOs are effectively social deduction games and similar that focused less on having a mass of players and complicated mechanics and more on giving the players things to socialize and communicate about. Though you can arguably have both in things like SS13.
MMOs are by design "Quantity over quality" and that is why they cannot be saved and do not deserve to be saved, because reality is that the "Massive Multi Player" is ornate, even people who love them stick with the same (Non-massive) group of people once they are in one, the "Massive" only matters until they find that group or if you want a endless supply of shitter newbies to gank in PvP.
>im an insecure shut-in incel introvert who refuses to play with people outside of my gay circle jerk
Sounds like a you problem, I meet new people all the time going into new MMOs blind.
This is why mmo's will be "saved" by AI. The future of mmo games aren't even server hosted multiplayer. Just you and your friends in a normal survival crafting type game, but filled with a living world of AI that exist just to make your experience better, which will be leagues above any experience that has to cater to 100 randoms at once. It will feel massive and alive, and will be multiplayer for you and your friends, but you will always be the main character.
>A good MMO is designed so that player cooperate and communicate in order to win (Even if it is against other players)
I play every game with random players muted. Even competitive shooters. There is very little actual need for communication and verbal coordination up to just about under the level of actual esports teams. If you were to bring an MMO up to the difficulty level where I'd have set my chat window to visible and start chatting, pinging the map or god forbid, unmute my mic and get organized just to deal with overworld content. You've just made the game to hard to play at all, communication or not, for 95% of players.
>Mobile gaming shift
What mobile MMOs are out there that don't play themselves and have actual gameplay?
Every single mobile MMO I've tried sucked a lot of ass and I didn't even play them since all of them play themselves alone.
my favorite part of mmos is raiding/bossing but for some reason I don't like bossing only games like monhun
Monster Hunter's bosses and gameplay are completely different.
I'm a different dad anon
Dadanon stop being fricking cringe. You gave up the ability to be a worthless neet, you don't get to come in here and claim you're above neet hobbies.
>Any dad that spends time with friends is a worthless dad
Holy shit how whipped are you? I see my friends once or twice a week, hand out with the boys in discord some evenings etcetera and I have no problems with the wife.
I'm not going to say your relationship with your wife isn't good, she's probably very supportive and would understand if you wanted time with your friends. You let her see her friends right? You're not just spitefully trapping her inside with you because you have kids and don't see your friends anymore, right?
Keeping male friendships after kids is hard, but it's worth doing. You can't be the same piece of shit you used to be but you can keep in touch goddamn.
Running an MMO guild is hard - everyone needs to schedule or it will not work out. don't b***h because you chose a life that makes that schedule tough for you, just find a guild with a schedule that does or frick off. Making dads look bad.
That's what I'm trying to tell him but he's autistic as frick and completely lacks self-awareness.
And watch as it slowly dwindles to nothing over the course of time. Sorry that I already speedran the shitty friends flake you and come to realize the only thing worth anything in this world is family. I can't imagine being a grown man and talking to other grown men on discord. I had my aol instant messager phase already when I was 10. Grow up, homosexual.
>the only thing that matters is family
>spends his free time in pointless discussions with literal anonymous people on a video game imageboard
You are not very good at this roleplay.
>you can't use your phone and watch your kids at the same time
Ok moron.
You are implying that you couldn't come to care about other people's schedule and the sort besides your family, yet you're wasting your time trying to change the opinions of people you'll likely never met. You are making no sense.
What makes you think I care about your opinion? I wouldn't try to dissuade you from sucking wieners because that's your nature. I just think your ideas are moronic and so are you.
Okay bro, I'm just trying to tell you to stop being cringe, at least pretend to type like someone who's above 18 of age if you're gonna stick to the role.
Says the guy who unironically uses the term poopsock.
Alright junior, and this is the part where you learn that thanks to the whole anonymous gimmick of this website, you aren't always replying to the same person as before. You'll learn the ropes with time.
Then get IDs. I don't main this board because it's fricking shit. Everyone replying to me is the same person. I don't give a frick if that's true or isn't. You probably are the same one and just lying like when you said he in reference to your own post.
Autism.
moronation
you have to go back.
You've literally not said one thing of substance since you've been here. Now you're using buzzwords? Just give up, dude. Raidgays are a cancer and everyone knows it. And everyone also acknowledges the overwhelming amount of autism found in such a community. People want different things but they always seem to pander to you b***hes because you're the fricking whales, literally and figuratively, that keep them afloat. Just once I'd like to see them prioritize quests over bosses. And add shit to patches that isn't just buffs and nerfs for raidgays.
I've told you why quests don't get prioritzed.
Your family is going to ditch you too because you're putting everything on them. Just wait.
I don't put anything on them. I internalize it and work through it with my own internal dialog. Are you a literal woman? You're moronic like one.
>I don't put anything on them
You think you don't but you do.
Ok freud. If you're so smart then why are you such a fricking loser.
it's because of his non-functioning testicles, and low testosterone.
Ahh, he's gen z. It makes sense now.
From what I understand, other than the obvious wow and xiv, ESO and Black Desert actually still have players. Surprisingly enough.
GW2 is always pretty populated too. There's always people on every map, world bosses/events still have hundreds at a time show up daily.
GW2 shards their maps so that they are always full of people. The "server" you join when you start isn't even really a thing, since they all get sharded and merged together.
Still, no amount of sharding can create players that aren't there. Imagine if Tree of Savior started doing that. It barely has like 10 people in the whole fricking NA region anyway.
Yeah I get that.
I feel like the best way to make an mmo today would probably to design around sharded servers, so worlds are never truly feel dead, and throw persistent world shit out the window, and tie any persistence to something instanced like plots of land like bdo, or entire instanced zones for player housing or something like that.
And finally disallow any kind of player trading entirely. I feel like that just fricks up everything in mmo's, because every patch just becomes "highest credit per hour in patch 1.XX guide" type of thing. It leads to a division of labor that just makes these games feel so shitty when players should really be taking part in all the parts of the game that the developers designed, instead of just speccing into one specific thing and doing one boring job all the time because it's what your character is "best" at. That's one of the reasons people play games in the first place is because real life is like that, and it sucks.
>GW2 shards their maps
lol cope its still a popular mmo because it has no dumbass monthly fee like trans of warcraft and trans fantasy 14
Last time I played gw2 it was basically a p2w game because you could use real money and easily trade it out for the currency used by the market in the game via dyes or whatever the other way was. I don't think ffxiv lets you do that.
Time travel, everyone quits playing WoW and plays FFXI instead.
I don't know if it'll save MMOs but, player created content i.e. custom dungeons/raids/instances could help bolster a given MMOs content offering and give players something to do between updates.
Hardcore mmo players are almost always exclusively losers. Dont think you want to make games to appeal to such a niche market
Nothing.
Problem isn't exactly with the genre. It is and it isn't.
MMOs are inherently dependant upon the community and it's make up. The natural generational shift has occurred and the newer generations are insufferable, even more so in large numbers; which is also no longer a novel concept as it was before the days of social media.
So the primary draw of the game no longer exists and to change or remove it, would make the game no longer an MMO. So nothing can be done.
Is the world vs world thing in GW2 good and/or currently alive?
They shove servers together depending on their activity so the game never feels dead even in world vs world where it's kind of like a team of servers vs other teams of servers. They are planning on making world vs world guild based in the future though (teams of guilds vs teams of guilds I think), but they've been beta testing it for literally years.
Is it too bad to get into it as a new player? I don't mean just being able to enter. I mean being able to enter and also feel like you are actually playing in there and not getting massively stomped and feeling useless.
I played gw2 at launch and maxed level in the weekend it came out so it's been a long time. But in world vs world you will essentially find a player as a general that everyone will follow in a train, and they'll give orders and tell people what to do, when to run, when to attack, etc. When I played fights tended to be pretty much like, you take out forts until an enemy train shows up and whoever gets the jump on the other essentially smashes them due to the number of buffs they have over the other (so they like they sally out of a fort and wreck you).
WvW isn't really gw2's strong point really. GW2 is really a turn your brain off amusement park game, where essentially every quest in the world has joint progression with everyone else helping. There are raids/fractals but I never really cared for them. There is also pvp which is its own separate thing with separate progression (not world vs world) which is neat.
When I went back to play it I would follow trains of people around to take out the world bosses on these timers: https://guildwarstemple.com/dragontimer/events.php?serverKey=119&langKey=1
It's a pve thing but I thought it was pretty cool due to the number of people involved.
Final fantasy XIV won and I am insanely fricking disappointed
Not even people that play FFXIV play for the gameplay, its entirely about the RP
Make the mmorpgs have the combat system of Black Desert. Rekove all cash shop bullshit in the game and out all effort into unlocking gear and skins that are cool in-game and not with your wallet.
Add World vs World PVP with base building mechanics and also add full blown 10-25 man raids.
Make it similar to how helldivers has a progressive livemap showing a collective team or faction push to “win” territory and bragging rights.
Add Guild Houses and Housing mechanics
Remove all LGBTQ+ woke DEI ESG from the game completely
Add exploration mechanics to the game and job swapping
Fixed
gw2 is dropping the world vs world pvp for guilds vs guilds as a kind of seasonal matchmaking thing because it makes more competitive sense.
The rest are good ideas.
Just make SAO, where scarcity is real and nothing is bound and everything has consequences.
MMOs are never coming back. Most of what the average consumer wanted from them, they can get from CoD or Fortnite without anywhere near as much of a time commitment.
A lot of MMOs suffer from FOMO events that they won't bring back to get special items or whatever that you can only get from that event. And while some circumvent this by re-adding those items to other events, you won't know if you're going to get that item ever again. Like the title says, there's a lot of over-saturation of the MMO market, thanks to Korea since they love to just shit out MMOs every month or year. Some MMOs suffer from just being shit overall. Bad mechanics, combat, movement, too grindy, poor updates, awful economy. They can become a huge mess after some years then wonder why they can't get any new players while also trying to attract new players and not focusing on the long-term content and players. Some MMOs are just glorified chatrooms and while most people do play the game, a lot of people are also just standing around, chatting. There are some that are too easy or have too steep of a learning curve. Some of them want it to be a second job where you have to log in every day. It's just so tiring and I think MMOs are beyond saving at this point.
So, how come things like Anvil Empires can have a non-typical MMO with up to 1000 players, but no mainstream MMORPG has tried a similar approach?
And if it's just a matter of reducing bandwidth stress, why not bump the number up even higher by cutting corners elsewhere? Like a 10000 player game where everyone's character is on a hexagonal grid, attacking is automatically calculated by the server at set intervals, and player actions like moving are only done once per second or such?
I think you kind of answered your own question. It really is a bandwidth constraint, and to get around it you have to make the game kind of suck. There are definitely things that most games are not doing that they definitely COULD do to increase the total number of players, like packet prioritization (games like fortnite, halo series, planetside 2, etc do a lot of this) which allows supporting lots of moving physics objects (including players) while allowing there to just be lag when there are tons of things moving around close by at once instead of just destroying your bandwidth budget/wallet if it's a hosted game (cloud service charge for network egress).
One issue, is that no matter how lightweight you make the update frequency, since every player needs updates on every other player, the number of updates you need to send out on the server are n*(n-1) number of updates. So if you have 100 players, adding 1 extra player would mean adding another 100 updates that have to go to that player (and that is just assuming players are updated on other players and not everything else in the game world). You could cut down on the tick rate (and that's why mmo's are all tab targeting btw, because the tick rate is tiny), but even then you are linearly cutting down on tick rate to make up for an exponentially scaling problem.
Games like foxhole claim to have however many players per server but they still has 240 max players per map.
What if the main server only sends updates to 1000 players and they send the remaining updates to their closest 10? And if that wouldn't normally work, suppose the client-updatees would have to have less than 10ms ping to the client-updater or something. Or even a LAN connection.
I suppose an MMO would just have to be designed different. Like one battleship being a 100-player server, and they fight against another battleship server that they cant even see, shooting shells two dozen kilometers away. Or in ranges that they do see each other, the enemy servership is just a representation. Would that be possible?
>What if the main server only sends updates to 1000 players and they send the remaining updates to their closest 10?
That's called peer-to-peer, and that means you give up authority to those players, meaning anyone can hack their game (or just unplug their ethernet cord when you don't want to die) and the server loses authority.
>Like one battleship being a 100-player server, and they fight against another battleship server that they cant even see, shooting shells two dozen kilometers away. Or in ranges that they do see each other, the enemy servership is just a representation. Would that be possible?
Yes this is possible. There used to be some of games out there, that did that where there would be "zones" of 64 player battles that made up a game of many more players than that, so games could claim to support however many players even though you'd only ever be exposed to 63 other people. You could see how other zones are doing while playing in your own battle zone and possibly effect them in some ways. There was a Xbox 360 game that did this.
And yes if you can enforce chunking up players specifically to different ships, so that they NEVER can interact (to avoid worst case of people grouping up), then yes you could have a battleship/submarine/spaceship game work like that.
The other solution is the EVE online solution which is time dilation. If it slows the server down to have so many people, actually slow the gameplay down itself.
So peer-to-peer would be doable if it was on a hobbyist whitelist system or such? Or if the PCs were controlled by an organization like the military.
And EVE. If it's all about TIME, couldn't you make an MMO out of any game if it's on bullet time? It'd be awful to play an FPS on a 1000 player server, with everyone moving an inch per minute, but technically?
Yeah you could do the time thing, and you could tweak the update rate/speed per player so only when players are nearby do things slow down to keep things under bandwidth budget. You'd need a custom networking solution though compared to the battleship example because changing tick rates is not a normal thing, and if you went below the heartbeat rate (which is often fixed in networking solutions) players would time out.
Peer to peer is definitely doable and it was standard for many non-competitive games (GTA is partly p2p). The thing is since it's so dependent on NAT punchthrough and router settings, it's common for things to just not work correctly for some people, and to this day p2p games have people complaining that multiplayer doesn't work, or they keep dropping out of games, with guides on how to fix things.
Also programming a game with p2p can be very tricky in general. Unity engine and Unreal engine don't even have native solutions for peer to peer, everything is going host/dedicated model.
>Or if the PCs were controlled by an organization like the military.
Yeah in a controlled environment it can work. It's why p2p was so popular on consoles, because there was a (tacit) guarantee that everyone had an unmodded console. That didn't stop people from building lag switches though.
Do MMOs even get new players? I wouldn't be surprised if the ones remaining are the same ones I played with 15 years ago
They definitely do. Speaking from experience, it's just looking for something new to waste time on and trying to find something different. It doesn't always work out, but they had at least one new player.
There's a normie born every minute.
I've been playing Tree of Savior again for some time and yes I can see on daily basis new players as the game has now a "support guild" any new account will automatically join so you can see it easily. The thing is the game is so incredibly new players unfriendly that most of them leave again within a few days. All content is designed to keep the last remaining endgame players busy with layers of RNG while milking the whales.
>most of them leave again within a few days
This is me. I played like 20 hours in 3 days and then I'm now done. It's cool that once you get to level 15 class which takes like 10 minutes you can test any class (with 2 or 3 exceptions) and then change classes at will. I spent some good 5+ hours just testing classes.
I don't regret the time spent on it, it was fun for those 3 days, but yeah I'm not coming back.
The devs have no vision what the game is supposed to be. It seems like a bunch of suits are in charge who don't play video games so they just copy whatever is popular like gear score or add more RNG garbage. People have been telling them the classes and build variety are the big strength of the game and yet they have been doing nothing but making gear up so absurd that any character beyond main is unfeasible. I cant tell how much Nexon fricked them though but their Mobile game seems to follow the same approach.
I've played every decently popular MMO since 2000 and I always go back to my 25 year old RS account. How the frick did they do it? Why hasn't the formula been copied with a genuine attempt?
More MMOs need to focus on co-op adventuring experiences like DDO with the hubs being vehicles for downtime and grouping up.
So like, just a server authoritative version of popular mission based games?
Basically.
I've always liked this idea, but the cost just seems so prohibitive for what you get out of it. Like what would deep rock galactic get out of it being server authoritative for instance? You'd make it easier to sell things to players, but that cost would be counteracted by having to host servers yourself.
Tarkov made it work because of the pvp element needing authority (but even then everyone still cheats).
No. That design philosophy never took off.
The real MMOs that blew up were the ones where you're following your own adventure, or with a friend, and you'd naturally come across players and could either collaborate or fight.
Nothing proved this to me more than when WoW came out with the Throne of Thunder patch in Pandaria. Game was fricking dead mostly due to the expansion being ass and PVP being dominated by triple pyroblast mages (at this time Pyroblast chunked 30~50% of a dude's HP depending on gear and CDs) and Throne of Thunder released a zone where you could pick up PVEVP dailies, where you'd be tasked with doing the usual quest types in a contested zone with other players, and it instantly was fun again.
You want people to not be forced to play with others, but you do want to make it impossible for them to play a couple hours without playing with other people and talking to them.
WoW made anti-social people make friends, that was always its greatest strength, and it did it through gameplay.
Except now even pvp servers are 100% horde or alliance because no one wants to be bothered by shit like that. If you want to play pvp, everyone knows to play an actual pvp-centric game.
name a PVP centric game aside from league that ever had a bigger PVP scene than WoW during WotLK and Cata
servers get packed because both devs and players are fricking moronic
Anon that was because there were like a total of 2 online multiplayer games that supported more than 16 players to play at the time with 3d graphics.
Unstructured pvp sucks though. I have no issue with actual GvG wars and stuff like that.
structured PVP is a groundhog day snoozefest
Getting ganked by max levels is a groundhog day snoozefest.
NTA but the randomness of open world pvp makes the environment feel alive to me. Yeah there will be butthole hunting low levels. But that still feels like it's part of an environment that is alive. There is a bunch of plus to it like just randomly bumping into an enemy player that happens to be on the same quest as you for instance.
I feel like every single aspect of it beats sitting in the main city at max level queueing for structured pvp matches.
The issue with the pvp ganking thing, is if they're better equipped, you have zero chance of winning, because it's still mmo combat.
Compare that to Rust, where if you have skills winning is still very much possible, and you stand to gain a lot from it.
How do you beat a sniper with a rock?
Taking out other players with the handcannon pistol thing takes skill but doable.
Can you learn to fricking read?
VR will save the MMO genre
maybe they should stop making them like WOW all the time. I dont like WOW or the same formula almost every MMO uses.
Everyone's copying WoW but nobody can get the movement right. No other game feels as good to run and jump around in like WoW, it's simply perfect
Yeah, that is the problem. they are copying WOW.
OSRS > WOW any day of the week.
WoW gameplay but it's OSRS skill/questing/character building would be the most popular MMO of all time if somebody would just make it.
>What can save MMOs?
letting people give in to their addictive gooner personalities. especially when you sell it to them
What's the minimum graphics threshold to get a decent playerbase size so there's a community?
I can make a roguelike. I can make a MUD. I can even add simplistic tile graphics. I guess ROTMG proves you don't need to have good graphics as long as the gameplay is good...
Though a tile based game that doesn't have the history of Runescape is probably a hard sell to the modern audience. People shit on tab target hot bar combat, let alone auto-battle.
One of these days I'm going to make a roguelike MMO.
>start a run
>get a stick
>meet another guy with a stick
>stare down
>decide to conquer the dungeon and everyone else, slaying lone players and evading groups
>after 12 layers the guy backstabs me with the great weapon I gave him
it'd be FUN
>character creator that lets you make actually attractive characters (naraka bladepoint?)
>itemization with horizontal progression focus like ffxi pre-abyssea
>action combat like pso2 nge
>skill trees like d2 except the nodes are first unlocked as drop items
>open world, no hubs, proximity chat only, any extended gatherings get buster called
>pvp always on
>drop all your equipment when you die
>generic ass story, but devs actively make it revolve around the actual sweatlord players on the server (launch focusing on gm characters until real players get established)
Is "getting ganked by high level players" the only PvP that WoW players get to experience?
That's 95% of what open world pvp is in WoW yeah. 4% is ganking the random similarly leveled enemy faction player that got caught out with low HP while fighting a mob. The last 1% are the epic Tarren Mill vs Southshore pvp skirmishes from like 2004 that don't happen anymore.