>Endurance in 1 was overpowered when it affected equip load as well as stamina >ADP in 2 is fine when it gives item use speed, roll iframes, and cast speed all at once
Equip loads and iframes give you both passive (armor) and active (roll) damage mitigation and make the game easier by making you invincible. ADP just gives you active mitigation (items, roll, def/healing spells) and a tiny dps increase for certain builds. It's definitely move balanced.
Never understood the hate for ADP. Why is speccing into dodge roll such a bad thing that half of the playerbase went seething online? Besides armor being nerfed into oblivion past DS 1 but you know.
Exactly, speccing into dodging. Or you get endurance and shit to be tankier and healthier
11 months ago
Anonymous
look man i'm just trying to point out where the hate comes from, and when in game 1 you have dodging by default but in game 2 you have to spec in dodging, people are gonna be mad that you have to go out of your way to do something they're used to normally have by default. ADP never came back in sequels because fromsoft knew their fanbase got used to having ds1's iframes
The idea was to make it more RPG-focused so that you have to invest in the roll for it to be good, just like how you have to invest in armor, blocking, HP soak, and healing/defense spells to be good at them and to be able to rely on them. All of your other defensive options besides rolling were entirely reliant on your stats.
But for some reason it tickles the autism of people like
the hate is because you HAVE to level ADP in order to be able to play the video game
who think that dodging is ESSENTIAL and mandatory and the only way to play the game (and it is kind of overpowered in Dark Souls, so that's fair). On top of that, he is right
you can't reliably dodge without the normal amount of i-frames you'd have by default in ds1/ds3/er
here where he says that it kind of feels like ass to have the bad, low i-frame dodge, even if it's arguably fair and makes sense. It's similar to how many people were nuclear seething on Ganker because Elden Ring gave them more options and abilities that they refused to engage with and they were getting filtered by their VIGlet glass cannon R1/roll-spam builds. I'd even go as far to say that ADP is a newer version of people getting butthurt at Morrowind's combat, because they DID the attack/roll properly and see the animation go off, but still miss/get hit and get annoyed.
Personally, I get what they're going for with ADP and I agree with the sentiment. In a pure action game it would be a stupid decision, but Dark Souls is a fricking RPG, so I think it's totally fine having your ability to dodge properly tied to your stats just as much as your ability to wear armor is. In return, they should have made armor and blocking much stronger, though. The issue was always that rolling's too good across the games (and Bloodborne does it best by just saying that dodging and rally are the only real defense and they're purely skill-based with no stat component).
every fromsoft game has an easy mode integrated in the game (ds1: black knight weapons, ds2: rapier, ds3: sellsword swords, elden ring: too many to count) and people that choose hard mode and complain about hard mode being hard are morons
Stats are complicated because it is more than the sum of its parts and is related to gameplay. I think stat systems with minimal power creep related to your starting stats are the best, so morrowind is better than skyrim for example.
I like morrowind because the power creep is not that big. Strength damage bonus is basically 1 point = 1%. weapon damage shaowcased assumes you have 50 strength. So if you have 40 strength then you do 10% less damage, if you have 60 then you do 10% more. In effect this means that if you have 50 strength your character meets the baseline for how strong you should be damage wise for content, and double that only means you do 50% more damage. (easy to start at 50 strength lvl 1)
So a high level is going to do 50% more damage than a low lvl + weapon quality type, ie >daedric sword does 1-44 damage, >iron sword does 1-18
A starter character who is combat focused will have 50 str on average, so in effect he will do 1-18. and endgame character with the best longsword and with softcapped strength will do 1-66 damage, that is 360% difference between best stats and best weapon and starter stats/weapon.
skyrim perk bonus starts out at 0 then goes to 100% bonus. >iron longsword does 7 damage >daedric longsword does 25 damage
an endgame character with 5 points into swords perks and an endgame weapon is going to do 714% more damage than a level 1 character before you even factor in smithing which everyone, whether they perk into smithing or not. Thats double the stat disparity between high and low level than in earlier games.
This huge power creep and the fact that everything is level scaled means that the player is punished harder for not meta maxing, or is rewarded too much for simply trying to do more damage, ie take advantage of smithing and alchemy and enchanting would put you well over 1000% power in terms of power, even without abusing feedback loops. to do similar in morrowind you would need to abuse bugs like crazy.
The topic of the thread is stats, not elder scrolls. Morrowind has a horrendous stat system and you can cap all relevant stats by level 10, which can be achieved without exploits within 2 hours. It probably would have been better to have natural unalterable stats that could not be raised outside of feats and rework skills completely. Like there was attempts at good design but in practice they are worse versions of what has been around for decades beforehand, which makes sense because morrowinds designer made a terrible failed dnd knock off prior to being hired by bethesda.
>you can cap all relevant stats by level 10, which can be achieved without exploits within 2 hours.
LMAOOOO
yeah bro trust me this one time i lifted a bus with one arm and threw it like 15 feet trust me bro it was crazy
you are autistic or something. maybe just really stupid. no autism is not a super power it makes you obnoxious and near sighted. the point of the post was stat disparity and power creep which went completely over your head. and your autistic complaints about talking about elder scrolls are completely irrelevant to the discussion. Stop getting lost in the details, you need to see the overall idea instead of nit picking small details.
So the game tends to become either you 1 shotting everything which is boring or everything is a damage sponge which is frustrating. Then you have the difficulty slider whcih is suppose to "fix" it, but its super lame having to open up the slider and try and figure out what it needs to be at to make the gameplay engaging.
You end up feeling like you need to self limit (beyond simply not bug abusing) to not get to powerful, and that you cant "play how you want" because level scaling will frick you over if your combat stats arent up to the task.
i have a question, has a game ever done this: >say skills level up with use >say they have a default maximum of 100 for example >say they have a default leveling rate of 1.0x >at character creation you redistribute those maximums and multipliers as points (independetly of each other) >say you take away 50 max from one skill and give it to another skill, one skill would have max 50 but the other max 150 >on top of that you take away .3x from one skill and give it to another skill, one would level up at a 0.7x rate but other 1.3x
i feel that's the closest to how skills work in real life, some people are just specialized in certain things at the cost of other things, or they might progress in a skill quickly but plateau early
Ultima Online has something like this but not quite.
You have cap for both stats int, str, dex as well as cap for skills frickton of them so there is only a certain total number of skill/stats points you can have at any time.
You gain stats by using corresponding skills, but you have to set which stat you want to change and which to stay "locked".
Same with skills, setting some skills to be "forgotten" over time to make space for other skills is required. Everyone still ends up as a mage because shit balance
https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/player/stats/skills-stats-and-attributes/
dark souls 2 because ADP
>Endurance in 1 was overpowered when it affected equip load as well as stamina
>ADP in 2 is fine when it gives item use speed, roll iframes, and cast speed all at once
Yes
Equip loads and iframes give you both passive (armor) and active (roll) damage mitigation and make the game easier by making you invincible. ADP just gives you active mitigation (items, roll, def/healing spells) and a tiny dps increase for certain builds. It's definitely move balanced.
>Shit souls
>Best anything
Lmao
this but unironically. you dont even need ADP in 2, its still a fine game. Dark souls 1 pretend fans just hated 2 because it was different.
Never understood the hate for ADP. Why is speccing into dodge roll such a bad thing that half of the playerbase went seething online?
Besides armor being nerfed into oblivion past DS 1 but you know.
the hate is because you HAVE to level ADP in order to be able to play the video game
But you don't?
you can't reliably dodge without the normal amount of i-frames you'd have by default in ds1/ds3/er
Exactly, speccing into dodging. Or you get endurance and shit to be tankier and healthier
look man i'm just trying to point out where the hate comes from, and when in game 1 you have dodging by default but in game 2 you have to spec in dodging, people are gonna be mad that you have to go out of your way to do something they're used to normally have by default. ADP never came back in sequels because fromsoft knew their fanbase got used to having ds1's iframes
The idea was to make it more RPG-focused so that you have to invest in the roll for it to be good, just like how you have to invest in armor, blocking, HP soak, and healing/defense spells to be good at them and to be able to rely on them. All of your other defensive options besides rolling were entirely reliant on your stats.
But for some reason it tickles the autism of people like
who think that dodging is ESSENTIAL and mandatory and the only way to play the game (and it is kind of overpowered in Dark Souls, so that's fair). On top of that, he is right
here where he says that it kind of feels like ass to have the bad, low i-frame dodge, even if it's arguably fair and makes sense. It's similar to how many people were nuclear seething on Ganker because Elden Ring gave them more options and abilities that they refused to engage with and they were getting filtered by their VIGlet glass cannon R1/roll-spam builds. I'd even go as far to say that ADP is a newer version of people getting butthurt at Morrowind's combat, because they DID the attack/roll properly and see the animation go off, but still miss/get hit and get annoyed.
Personally, I get what they're going for with ADP and I agree with the sentiment. In a pure action game it would be a stupid decision, but Dark Souls is a fricking RPG, so I think it's totally fine having your ability to dodge properly tied to your stats just as much as your ability to wear armor is. In return, they should have made armor and blocking much stronger, though. The issue was always that rolling's too good across the games (and Bloodborne does it best by just saying that dodging and rally are the only real defense and they're purely skill-based with no stat component).
every fromsoft game has an easy mode integrated in the game (ds1: black knight weapons, ds2: rapier, ds3: sellsword swords, elden ring: too many to count) and people that choose hard mode and complain about hard mode being hard are morons
Probably temple of elemental evil honestly
Maybe Dark Souls 3? All stats, passive and offensive, are useful. Even luck had some good weapons/builds.
See
>Level 105 and all these stats
>Only 54 Block
Block is a fricking b***h to level up
Stats are complicated because it is more than the sum of its parts and is related to gameplay. I think stat systems with minimal power creep related to your starting stats are the best, so morrowind is better than skyrim for example.
I like morrowind because the power creep is not that big. Strength damage bonus is basically 1 point = 1%. weapon damage shaowcased assumes you have 50 strength. So if you have 40 strength then you do 10% less damage, if you have 60 then you do 10% more. In effect this means that if you have 50 strength your character meets the baseline for how strong you should be damage wise for content, and double that only means you do 50% more damage. (easy to start at 50 strength lvl 1)
So a high level is going to do 50% more damage than a low lvl + weapon quality type, ie
>daedric sword does 1-44 damage,
>iron sword does 1-18
A starter character who is combat focused will have 50 str on average, so in effect he will do 1-18. and endgame character with the best longsword and with softcapped strength will do 1-66 damage, that is 360% difference between best stats and best weapon and starter stats/weapon.
skyrim perk bonus starts out at 0 then goes to 100% bonus.
>iron longsword does 7 damage
>daedric longsword does 25 damage
an endgame character with 5 points into swords perks and an endgame weapon is going to do 714% more damage than a level 1 character before you even factor in smithing which everyone, whether they perk into smithing or not. Thats double the stat disparity between high and low level than in earlier games.
This huge power creep and the fact that everything is level scaled means that the player is punished harder for not meta maxing, or is rewarded too much for simply trying to do more damage, ie take advantage of smithing and alchemy and enchanting would put you well over 1000% power in terms of power, even without abusing feedback loops. to do similar in morrowind you would need to abuse bugs like crazy.
You should play games other than elder scrolls. Being better than Oblivion and Skyrim is a very low bar.
I do but OP posted elder scrolls image so i posted relative to that.
The topic of the thread is stats, not elder scrolls. Morrowind has a horrendous stat system and you can cap all relevant stats by level 10, which can be achieved without exploits within 2 hours. It probably would have been better to have natural unalterable stats that could not be raised outside of feats and rework skills completely. Like there was attempts at good design but in practice they are worse versions of what has been around for decades beforehand, which makes sense because morrowinds designer made a terrible failed dnd knock off prior to being hired by bethesda.
>you can cap all relevant stats by level 10, which can be achieved without exploits within 2 hours.
LMAOOOO
yeah bro trust me this one time i lifted a bus with one arm and threw it like 15 feet trust me bro it was crazy
you are autistic or something. maybe just really stupid. no autism is not a super power it makes you obnoxious and near sighted. the point of the post was stat disparity and power creep which went completely over your head. and your autistic complaints about talking about elder scrolls are completely irrelevant to the discussion. Stop getting lost in the details, you need to see the overall idea instead of nit picking small details.
So the game tends to become either you 1 shotting everything which is boring or everything is a damage sponge which is frustrating. Then you have the difficulty slider whcih is suppose to "fix" it, but its super lame having to open up the slider and try and figure out what it needs to be at to make the gameplay engaging.
You end up feeling like you need to self limit (beyond simply not bug abusing) to not get to powerful, and that you cant "play how you want" because level scaling will frick you over if your combat stats arent up to the task.
Stats are for nerds.
>health (100/100)
>weapon damage
>armor value (reduces % of damage)
simple as
Grim Dawn.
i have a question, has a game ever done this:
>say skills level up with use
>say they have a default maximum of 100 for example
>say they have a default leveling rate of 1.0x
>at character creation you redistribute those maximums and multipliers as points (independetly of each other)
>say you take away 50 max from one skill and give it to another skill, one skill would have max 50 but the other max 150
>on top of that you take away .3x from one skill and give it to another skill, one would level up at a 0.7x rate but other 1.3x
i feel that's the closest to how skills work in real life, some people are just specialized in certain things at the cost of other things, or they might progress in a skill quickly but plateau early
Ultima Online has something like this but not quite.
You have cap for both stats int, str, dex as well as cap for skills frickton of them so there is only a certain total number of skill/stats points you can have at any time.
You gain stats by using corresponding skills, but you have to set which stat you want to change and which to stay "locked".
Same with skills, setting some skills to be "forgotten" over time to make space for other skills is required.
Everyone still ends up as a mage because shit balance
https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/player/stats/skills-stats-and-attributes/