This is a complaint I hear a lot when people snarl their nose up at this or that rpg.
"The writing is so bad. I can't take is seriously."
You also see this complaint anytime someone promotes games as art.
But no one ever offers counter examples. What are these wonderful stories that people are watching and reading that they want their games to emulate?
We can't base an assumption on popularity. Because then we are dealing with books like Harry Potter, the Hunger Games, twilight and tons of rpgs have writing as good as those. They even often follow similar plot progressions and happen in similar worlds.
As an aside, I kind of think people who say these things are full of shit and just being dismissive. Because in my many years of playing games, I've never, ever ever ever, seen anyone offer up an example of what they think good writing is.
 CRIME Shirt $21.68 |
 Nothing Ever Happens Shirt $21.68 |
CRIME Shirt $21.68 |
Ask on Rebbit since you're so fond of their spacing
>Ask on Rebbit since you're so fond of their spacing
He's using short paragraphs to separate ideas, newbie. Note how several of them contain multiple sentences without linebreaks.
OP, as a rule, most video games do not have good writing. As a rule, the writing and story are generally there, but are not meant to be obtrusive. However, there is a vast difference between a game with merely serviceable plot and writing, and a game with terrible writing and a non-sensical story that actively detract from the player's immersion, and break the player's suspension of disbelief by virtue of being utter shit. Looking at you, BG3.
uh ohhhhhhhhhhhh we have a tourist uh ohhhhhh
>heh this one moron in the mid 2000s typed a certain way so YOU'RE actually le rebbitor!!!
go. Back.
Play nice, fool bags.
Read a book if you want a good story, or better yet, go outside and experience your own.
RPGs are power fantasies for broken rejected males, written by writers that failed in the film industry. There's nothing more to RPG writing than that: does it scratch the itch that I'm too useless to fulfil in real life?
morons will call this bait but they'll be unable to offer a single counterexample.
>go outside and experience your own.
have yo been outside?
I have been, and it's gone to shit because emetic wienersucking manchildren like yourself sit inside, jerk off and play make-believe games with digital action figures like you're eleven.
>it's gone to shit because emetic wienersucking manchildren like yourself sit inside, jerk off and play make-believe games with digital action figures like you're eleven.
so your solution is to cast those man children into the outside so they can interact with you?
I'm willing to make that sacrifice, if it helps them grow.
Anon, there isn't such a thing as a non-broken male in contemporary society. We aren't even allowed to kill each by our own will.
I know this is the typical "le alpha male" bait, but you do realize how sad it is to waste your time trying provoke random anonymous internet randos.
Pretending to be moronic is still being moronic. I know you will respond to this, breaking character would ruin the bit
based dubs BTFO larping morons
vidya as a medium has offered a lot more groundbreaking stories than any book I've read. instead of 50 pages telling you about the environment and people's clothes you see the environment and people's clothes. Leaves up a lot of writing space for an actual compelling plot. Are you going to sit down and tell me with a straight face that The Odyssey is better than Final Fantasy 7?
>Because then we are dealing with books like Harry Potter, the Hunger Games, twilight and tons of rpgs have writing as good as those.
Fricking low bar right there
Games are 99% not in any way art. Games are media. Probably 90% of media by volume merely aims to entertain and the “writing” is nothing more than a means to that end.
Personally, if a video game moves me emotionally I would consider it well written. If I get annoyed with plot holes or irrational character behaviour then that’s bad writing. Most games are so clearly in between I don’t much think about it at all tbdesu
Pick a book, literally any book, and your criticism could probably apply to it equally well. Fiction is as old as language
>Games are media.
but media is art. Something does not stop being art because it was made for someone to sell and feed themselves.
People don't shit on on the works of great painters or writers because it was contracted. A christmas carol was original sold in the English equiv of a magazine like a manga.
People get really up their own ass about this stuff.
>Personally, if a video game moves me emotionally I would consider it well written. If I get annoyed with plot holes or irrational character behaviour then that’s bad writing.
Epic this-ery. In the majority of games it’s simply serviceable and neither great not immersion-breakingly bad.
>Read a book if you want a good story, or better yet, go outside and experience your own.
What a silly thing to say.
There's a scathing review of Hideo Kojima's writing on MGS2 by a localiser named Agnes and it's not the kind of seethe or rejection of ideas that you might think based on the usual shitty translation threads. In it she criticises Hideo for imitating Tom Clancy (sings his praises too) and she lists some authors she enjoys. She comes at it from an approach of literature and it's extremely flawed.
As funny as that comment on Kojima was, as insanely weird as his plots go and there isn't a craftsmanship in its prose he did try and think outside the box and there was thought put into his direction that she didn't care for because she was looking at it only as literature.
MGS2 was decades ago, since then there's been some good games; a lotta bad.
There's been titles that have tried different things, unveiling their story in different ways and approaching themes which you don't ordinarily see in a video game. There's writers who have written specifically for the medium like and played into telling the story within the bounds of a game and challenging you to think differently and from multiple angles. His prose isn't anything amazing and Agnes would be very sad to hear that the masked man was not like McCarthy and he did at times side into the juvenile like Hideo and his mask would slip and he would leak philosophy into his plots and scenarios and you may think about them and you might not as you stop at ending A but if you're like Agnes a bit of Herbertism won't put you off..
For people like Agnes who cared about prose there's a title like Lost Odyssey that lean into that side more. It's less of an absurd clancyism than MGS. If she was willing to put the prose aside and look narratively she could have enjoyed Matsuno's writing.
Whatsoever she chooses: She would have to engage with the medium to experience those unique aspects.
This is like asking what is good food. Not everyone is equally capable of discernment, and this swings both ways.
>I've never, ever ever ever, seen anyone offer up an example of what they think good writing is.
Because it's easier to criticize.
Opinions are subjective, and there's little reason to care about what someone else thinks or why.
I think one problem with story in rpgs is that a lot of gamers are jaded buttholes.
Like if anyone tells them a game has a good story they go in expecting to just cum and blast jizz all over the place when they first put in the game. That never happens, then they get all pissy about it.
They also compare every rpg the first one they enjoyed when they were like 10. And no new game is going to match that vibe of getting a good rpg for the first time on summer or winter break.
>They also compare every rpg the first one they enjoyed when they were like 10. And no new game is going to match that vibe of getting a good rpg for the first time on summer or winter break.
mfw
Add the fact people don't care about story anyways, roleplaying is about minmaxing numbers with anime avatars. Games are replayed to death using guides, dialogue is skipped, and choices are made based on what gives the best gear.
speak for yourself. I like rpgs for a little bit of story and exploring. I dont really care about getting the max best gear so long as the game continues to be serviceable and I dont get stuck for being week.
Good writing in games is effectively distilling archetypical themes into an overarching plot thru short character driven vignettes. Sakaguchi, takahashi and matsuno are masters at this imo, hence why their poorly translated 8~16bit stories still resonate over 30 years later. One example is Cecil’s story in Final Fantasy IV in its conveyance of jungian duality.
As a counter, I would argue that bad writing is weaving overly complex concepts that have no basis in reality and innately have no point or clear resolution. Nojima’s kingdom hearts writing comes to mind when I think of this style of writing. And before anyone tries to call me out, yes I am a squaregay.
>Nojima’s kingdom hearts writing comes to mind when I think of this style of writing.
is he why 7 remake has such bad writing?
I was skeptical about (You) bringing in Jung, but Cecil really does undergo an integration of the Self. Hmm.
I don’t even know if sakaguchi is conscious of these elements in his stories, he’s just tuned in on a spiritual level. Check the “a thousand years of dreams” short stories from Lost Odyssey he and Kyoshi Shigematsu worked on. Beautiful stuff.
Eh, I mean with all the huge amounts of symbolism in virtually every JRPG series it's hard to believe they pull it out of their asses
>I don’t even know if sakaguchi is conscious of these elements in his stories,
That's a very strange thing to say about Sakaguchi.
>As a counter, I would argue that bad writing is weaving overly complex concepts that have no basis in reality and innately have no point or clear resolution. Nojima’s kingdom hearts writing comes to mind when I think of this style of writing. And before anyone tries to call me out, yes I am a squaregay.
I dislike Nojimas writing for the same reason but perhaps the biggest crime with Nojimbo is that he is a terrible character writer and often his plot points focus on extremes. Other writers can pull this off but something about him just has never clicked for me outside of SoP. It's not necessarily a bad thing to write unlikeable characters, it's another thing to continually write unlikeable characters filled with bizarre tropes.
SoP at times seems almost self aware, it feels like a parody of his writing, like he has read reviews of his novels but it works.
I try to avoid him wherever I can but I will say that I am extremely curious about his writing in Dragons Dogma Online which was (according to the internet) positively received. Curious enough to the point that I may just have to hunt down some videos to see for myself.
A lot of these types of comments are coming from insecure Gankergays. You see them on every other media board, not just the vidya ones. I think it's mostly teenagers who just read their first book that wasn't assigned reading and now they think they're enlightened.
I don't even think it's Gankergays, I think anybody who's read a book knows that books aren't some kind of ascended medium from the heavens that are inherently superior to all other forms of storytelling. It comes across to me more like pseuds just trying to sound smart by being dismissive.
>pseuds just trying to sound smart by being dismissive.
The writing sucks, it's beneath me, my taste and intellect is superior, evidenced by the fact that I'm capable of calling something dogshit.
I can even do this:
>someone likes a thing
lol, lmao even
yeah, most rpgs are at least as good or better than the hunger games or harry potter, and the public ate that stuff up.
Something doesnt have a good story by virtue of being a book
>Something doesnt have a good story by virtue of being a book
But guys, Twilight!
It 100% is. You'll never see anyone make book recommendations after such a moronic comment. And if they do, 100% it is a classic that literally everyone has already read.
Google to the rescue!
https://www.hunter.cuny.edu/rwc/handouts/the-writing-process-1/invention/Five-Qualities-of-Good-Writing
https://www.grantbulldogs.org/cms/lib010/IL01904683/Centricity/Domain/256/storyelements2.ppt
it is depressing that zoomers think reddit invented spacing between paragraphs when people have been doing that since usenet and email. Hell, it probably predates the internet as I'm pretty sure I've seen it in books, magazines and hand written notes way way back in the dark ages.
how much brain rot do you have to have to think reddit invented anything?
>implying zoomers even understand the concept of a paragraph
I think that people don't understand what "Good writing! or a "Good Narrative" mean for vidya. It's an interactive medium, gameplay is king, the way the player interacts will always be the make or brake, so the narrative, story, world building and everything should serve the gameplay. Like, think of Ace Attorney, it's fricking stupid, but the story is full of plot twist and absurd reveals that work not because they're actually good, but because they allow for the game to demand interaction, investigation and understandment from the player, they reward competency from the investigation phases and the trial. As long as what you write facilitates the gameplay, I'd say it's good writing. Prose means nothing if the player hates how they have to interact with it.
Shit game. I love the genre but dear god this was trash that transvestites and autistic homosexuals like
It's going to depend at what angles you're approaching it from and what you want to get out of it.
If you want an enjoyable romp, an adventure with twists and turns then there's many games out there. If you want to think, be challenged or not exposed to maguffins then you'll have a bit of a hard time but you can get through as long as you maintain a decent suspension of disbelief.
Writing in games is hard to quantify because so many games are and were not written for the medium and this persists.
A game can be well written at the same time as having a bad story. A game can have delightlyfully flowely prose flowing from its text boxes in long, obtuse paragraphs and be woefully at odds with the game it occupies. It can be a simple, well written story with an objective to facilitate gameplay or it can be a narratively dense mess tacked onto a game with very fun gameplay.
>"The writing is so bad. I can't take is seriously."
I would say that if someone says a statement like this however and they don't elaborate farther or say what it was particularly that was bad that it's usually safe to take it with a grain of salt and pack it away.
I dislike Natsuko Ishikawa! If I were to describe why I would at times call her a bad writer, well..
I hate her prose! I hate her plotting pitfalls focusing on getting from A to B but I also absolutely adore her characterisation and world building even if she sometimes repeats themes.
>I think people who say these things are full of shit and just being dismissive.
>Because in my many years
>I've never, ever seen anyone offer up an example of good writing.
I'm biased when it comes to RU & JP prose but I turn my brain off when it comes to English
So I have a hard time playing games in Japanese without thinking about the writing, but still I understand the limitations of the medium and there are very few games I could point to in Japanese and compliment them on their prose. I wouldn't offer you examples either when it's a medium issue.