One thing from Tolkien that I'm surprised changed the way it did over time was with the party "burglar" a la Bilbo. I'm a big fan of the idea of the rogue being the non-adventuring type but someone with a specific set of skills that makes them handy to keep around. Not a thief but someone who happens to be good at sneaking, partly because that's their only option. Street urchin, criminal, locksmith rogues are all a bit overdone but "ordinary non-adventurer who got picked up" has a nice appeal to it.
>CG human-raised drow thief
Plucky sidekick with a heart of gold, or at least that's how I played my first and favorite D&D character. She was in terms of personality basically Disney's Aladdin cross with Lina Inverse from The Slayers, with a few notable quirks:
- Crippling arachnophobia, because a drow that's afraid of spiders just amuses me.
- Hates dogs, because dogs love her, which would be all well and good if not for the fact that she's trying to burgle houses and doesn't need dogs barking at her looking for petting.
- Can drink almost any non-dwarf under the table since she was raised in a tavern.
- Desperate get people to judge her based on being a thief instead of being a drow; her goal is to become the Greatest Thief Who Ever Lived so that people will remember that about her first.
- Unwilling to kill unless absolutely necessary: "I'm a thief, not an assassin!"
- For a similar reason, insists that she uses knives, not daggers ("A dagger is a weapon; a knife is a tool. It's better to use knives than daggers.")
>I play odnd
It doesn't get much older than Blackmoor.
Pic related. A sullen and shady guy, clearly haunted by some shit (in this case, literally). Someone who the party is never quite sure about, but also would struggle without his help. Someone who insists on the quick and easy solution, who argues with the party when they pick the high road. But at the moment of truth, he chooses to stick with them.
Alternatively, I like a rogue with almost no personality at all. A walking Swiss army knife, pragmatic and silent. When faced with a hostile guard he looks to the party leader as if to ask "knife, cosh, or neither?" and can be relied on to accept the answer. And yet, now and again, he will speak up to say a few choice words, or do something surprisingly kind and gentle.
Brash, reckless, smug... and clever enough to somehow bullshit their way into getting away with it. If I'm not playing a professional shit-talking thrill-seeker, what is even the point of playing Rogue?
When I play rogues what I basically do is Quark from DS9 except more useful in combat.
An "entrepreneur" thriving in the gray areas of morality.
Everyone knows he's a greedy c**t who puts himself first, his friends and loved ones second and the greater good a distant, DISTANT third.
But sooner or later everyone could use the services of someone like him, and he's one of the only ones who never breaks an agreement on principle, even when breaking it would net greater profit in the short term.
After all, his particular profession depends on word-of-mouth, no one is going to recommend someone who fricked them over.
I am shocked and embarrassed I haven't got a picture of Quark on hand, so I'll just post this one, it's close enough and I never get to use it.
Last campaign I ran I introduced a minor bad guy in the first session the party was meant to just beat up and then move on from. He was the self-proclaimed “Bandit Lord, Black Bart”. They ended up beating him unconscious so many times I ruled he got brain damage. They now felt sorry for him and decided to take him with them.
His personality was a mild kleptomaniac who went along with everything because he had nothing better to do and occasionally had big gaps in his knowledge due to the TBI.
>party escapes from prison >now lost in an unfamiliar land at night >”hey, wait, Black Bart, you said you were a scout for the army, right? You can navigate by the stars.” >”course I can. Watch this.” >Black Bart stares intently at the stars for several minutes. >”Well?” >”I’m thinking. Hold on.” >several more minutes pass >”well?” >”Frick me, there’s a lot of them.”
I am guilty of having played the snarky but good-hearted bastard archetype every time I made a rogue, and many of them were tieflings. I'm still atoning for this sin. Every time someone plays that shit I wanna murder him in his sleep (IC).
Always a nobleman of course. With the jobs given to rogues in most systems being 'skill monkey' or 'effective both in social and in combat', the only acceptable answer is a noble.
Who else would know so many vocations, have skill in negotiation and fighting, have above average intelligence with average physicals? Some street urchin who hasn't spent a day studying anything other than 'where to steal bread'? Who could easily study, and afford, a rapier or even an arming sword? Some tavern brute? Where could he learn to disable magical traps and unlock any door from? Some impoverished burglar for whom method of entry is open window?
A court rogue is a spy, spymaster, noble heir, grey cardinal, plotter and schemer. He doesn't pick locks into peasant's hut, he picks locks into his rival's bedchambers to read their letters or plant evidence. He doesn't charm random guards to let him get away with pickpocketting, he charms foreign princesses to secure alliances.
Statblock must always be roleplayed, and the only way to roleplay a rogue's statblock is to be a political warrior, cold, precise, calculating and of great means to give him all of the tools that rogues are famous for. If a player brings me a character sheet of a Rogue with background 'impoverished orphan', I make him return the stolen backstory back to the fighter and remake it.
Tavern brutes and more have the most essential of skills. Talking to people because they're all synced to being skilled. Yeah you're rich but the merc can just as easily pay for the same training and knowledge by being connected and utilizing his skills for profit, influence and more. Rich guys just have a head start, other guys just start running a little later.
Innocent kid who’s just had a bad run of it. Never chose this life it was thrust onto him. Doesn’t mean he isn’t good at what he does. Has absolutely killed people. And does feel bad about it
I appreciate how varied rogue characters tend to be. Most traditional classes fall into like two archetypes each aside from clear attempts to subvert those particular archetypes
>What personalities do you like you give your rogues?
Rat's Instincts -- He is, first and foremost, a survivor. He grew up in terrible circumstances where virtues like pride and shame meant death, and so he learned to be ashamed of feeling shame and to take pride in being willing to fight dirtier than the other guy. He doesn't care if other people think he's scummy, he just thinks they're soft and have never had to put their lofty ideals to the test.
Moral Flexibility -- To survive, he's had to completely abandon normative ethics. He lived too long having to constantly choose between stealing and starving, and his concept of morality is so flexible that he qualifies as a moral gymnast. He will accept any means if it achieves his ends and is deeply confused by means-not-ends arguments.
Rough Justice -- He has no faith in the legal system to achieve justice, having experienced injustice from that same system. He believes in immediate and swift justice for those he considers evil. He doesn't believe in fair play. If he thinks you deserve to die, then he doesn't care if death arrives from a poisoned knife in the back.
Heart of Gold -- He has a soft spot for the weak and vulnerable. His lack of respect for the law stems from a lack of respect for those in power, which stems from how those who have power treat those who do not. He takes great offense at seeing people kick the downtrodden, which can easily trigger his sense of rough justice.
Since I try to vary my class selection, and I DM a lot, I've only played one Rogue so far, and another rogue would probably be somewhat different.
>Distrustful of authority but willing to cooperate if it's the smart move >At least until the opportunity to scamper or betray presents itself >Nice and sociable with other people >Very well-connected >Respected re-seller of lightly used items (posing as a Golgari Findbroker) >Generally careful and prudent, with the occasional insane idea >"Let's poison the wine at this party so everyone is hampered - yeah, we can drink it too, I know what I'm doing" >Despite pretending, did not in fact have a poisoner's kit proficiency >Extremely good at acting >Was a traitor the entire campaign (Dimir Agent) >Turned dying in battle due to team's incompetence and subsequent resurrection into 'proof that I would give everything for this team' and ended up above suspicion >Would trade smaller opportunities for medium ones with plausible deniability >Generally folksy and good at getting along with blue-collar folk >Jumped at the chance to do stand-up comedy at open mic night one time
If it's 5e, I always play the swashbuckler and he's definitely not Errol Flynn/the Dread Pirate Roberts/Zorro at all.
If I play a rogue-ish type in a sci-fi game (typically Star Wars) then he's definitely not Malcolm Reynolds/Han Solo at all
>played a rogue with ocd >he had to sit in the tavern always facing the front door >wouldn't sit down and would stand in the corner if he couldn't >described him as wide eyed to everyone at the table >double checks every door if they're locked or trapped >asking the dm if my character still has all his gear as I describe my character frantically double checking all his gear >waits til everyone took a drink of their goblets to see if they were poisoned before drinking or eating his meals >ask what the rations or meals are and have my character avoid foods >I don't have some nitpicky high society taste I just got rotten bowels and most things don't sit well with me >doesn't like to fly >doesn't like to be touched >doesn't like to touch >spergs out and runs outta the room if anything gets sexual or npcs try to hit on them >over enthusiastic about locks and clockwork to an autistic level >if it has a lock on it someone doesn't want us in there and I don't like being told where I can and can't go whether it's a sign, some dick directing traffic, or barrier whether natural or man made >doesn't actually care about wealth and often leaves the treasure behind once breaking in >oooh that's fancy no wonder they put it behind this locked door, wouldn't wanna steal someone's legacy now >the one rogue who doesn't like stealing and thinks it's kinda mean >collects the locks from the doors if they're aren't integrated in >has a collection of locks he practices lock picking >has put said locks on doors in the dungeon frustrating the dm and party >doesn't like to get his feet wet(literally)
Stick to your plan. Trust no one. Stick to the plan. Forbid empathy. Stick to the plan. Anticipate, don't improvise. Stick to your plan. Never yield an advantage. Stick to the plan. Fight only the battle you're paid to fight. Ask yourself, ‘What's in it for me?’. Stick to the plan. Trust no one. Empathy is weakness. Weakness is vulnerability. This is what it takes if you want to succed. Simple.
I like using 'so curious it hurts' as a basis for a rogue. How they start and how they end up.. usually the same, but at least in the middle learning may occur sometimes. >Pic unrelated
>Fights dirty, victory is all that matters, honor is for suckers.
Sorry but that's the shittiest "personality" a rogue can have. Everyone else in the party except maybe the paladin is exactly the same way. You're playing a bunch of people stealing gold from monsters not samurai or some shit.
Do you think for a second that the Fighter or Ranger wouldn't accept Sneak Attack damage if their class allowed it? No one cares whatsoever about "fighting honorably". How is casting Hold Person so the fighter can stab someone while paralyzed "fighting honorably"? How is turning yourself into a giant snake and eating people "fighting honorably"?
What does "fighting honorably" even mean when you're encountering a beholder or a lich? Nothing, it's stupid. Every PC is doing everything they can to win during a fight. It's like saying your character's personality is "he isn't afraid to fight monsters" or "he likes to go on adventures".
A proper thug who knows he works best with a competent crew and, ideally, a clever boss. Definitely self-interested but not necessarily greedy. To him, raiding a necromancer's crypt is really not much different from cracking skulls in a harbor turf war - you try some kind of plan, eventually that falls apart and then you fight. And then in the end sometimes you get paid and sometimes you have to skip town.
I'm sure a lot of people imagine thugs and goons as fighters but I find that ends in a character who's basically a walking fistfight and who just wants to nod along during the talky bits. A rogue thug is actually going to contribute to the team and insist that they have a proper plan that gives them decent odds. Both can be fun of course but the latter suits my RP style a lot more.
>Saucy femme fatale? >Good hearted locksmith in way over his head? >Smooth and shadowy, serious infiltrator? >Ordinary explorer that happen to be good at roguish things? >Plucky urchin pickpocket trying to feed his siblings? >SHADOWHAND EDGELORD the very original assassin? >Bumbling but lucky moron? >Dirty deeds done dirt cheap guy? >Potion addict who is robbing people to feed his wild magic addiction like the crackhead on Governor street?
I don't care what their personalities are.
Acts selfish and uncaring, accepts all requests for assistance like it's grossly inconvenient.
Secretly donates most of his treasure shares to hospitals or churches or the like.
bards who can't do shit but bluff and almost get the party killed
One thing from Tolkien that I'm surprised changed the way it did over time was with the party "burglar" a la Bilbo. I'm a big fan of the idea of the rogue being the non-adventuring type but someone with a specific set of skills that makes them handy to keep around. Not a thief but someone who happens to be good at sneaking, partly because that's their only option. Street urchin, criminal, locksmith rogues are all a bit overdone but "ordinary non-adventurer who got picked up" has a nice appeal to it.
I play odnd. If you want to find traps, play a dwarf. If you want to sneak play hobbit
>CG human-raised drow thief
Plucky sidekick with a heart of gold, or at least that's how I played my first and favorite D&D character. She was in terms of personality basically Disney's Aladdin cross with Lina Inverse from The Slayers, with a few notable quirks:
- Crippling arachnophobia, because a drow that's afraid of spiders just amuses me.
- Hates dogs, because dogs love her, which would be all well and good if not for the fact that she's trying to burgle houses and doesn't need dogs barking at her looking for petting.
- Can drink almost any non-dwarf under the table since she was raised in a tavern.
- Desperate get people to judge her based on being a thief instead of being a drow; her goal is to become the Greatest Thief Who Ever Lived so that people will remember that about her first.
- Unwilling to kill unless absolutely necessary: "I'm a thief, not an assassin!"
- For a similar reason, insists that she uses knives, not daggers ("A dagger is a weapon; a knife is a tool. It's better to use knives than daggers.")
>I play odnd
It doesn't get much older than Blackmoor.
Bratty, yet submissive and breedable.
loose. It helps to divert most consequences of failure into getting dicked. Just gotta make sure to acquaint somebody that can patch her up afterward.
You first
Pic related. A sullen and shady guy, clearly haunted by some shit (in this case, literally). Someone who the party is never quite sure about, but also would struggle without his help. Someone who insists on the quick and easy solution, who argues with the party when they pick the high road. But at the moment of truth, he chooses to stick with them.
Alternatively, I like a rogue with almost no personality at all. A walking Swiss army knife, pragmatic and silent. When faced with a hostile guard he looks to the party leader as if to ask "knife, cosh, or neither?" and can be relied on to accept the answer. And yet, now and again, he will speak up to say a few choice words, or do something surprisingly kind and gentle.
I enjoy my rogues being flamboyant and fighting dirty
I pick out characters from Charles Dickens novels.
I wouldn't have any great expectations for that idea.
I liked the part where Tiny Tim sneak attacked someone with his crutch.
Brash, reckless, smug... and clever enough to somehow bullshit their way into getting away with it. If I'm not playing a professional shit-talking thrill-seeker, what is even the point of playing Rogue?
you sound like torture to play with
You sound like someone who only plays D&D with morons who can't roleplay to save their lives.
See, I can make up shit too, except when I do it, it's true.
My rogues err towards ruffians, banditos and brawlers usually.
pic related
Our party's rogue is a sociopathic con artist and murderer, who also happens to be the face of our otherwise mostly good party.
bump
When I play rogues what I basically do is Quark from DS9 except more useful in combat.
An "entrepreneur" thriving in the gray areas of morality.
Everyone knows he's a greedy c**t who puts himself first, his friends and loved ones second and the greater good a distant, DISTANT third.
But sooner or later everyone could use the services of someone like him, and he's one of the only ones who never breaks an agreement on principle, even when breaking it would net greater profit in the short term.
After all, his particular profession depends on word-of-mouth, no one is going to recommend someone who fricked them over.
I am shocked and embarrassed I haven't got a picture of Quark on hand, so I'll just post this one, it's close enough and I never get to use it.
Craven, because I took the Craven feat
Right now I'm playing a spy/assassin rogue for Tyranny of Dragons and it's been fun as hell.
A or B cups
Patrician taste
Last campaign I ran I introduced a minor bad guy in the first session the party was meant to just beat up and then move on from. He was the self-proclaimed “Bandit Lord, Black Bart”. They ended up beating him unconscious so many times I ruled he got brain damage. They now felt sorry for him and decided to take him with them.
His personality was a mild kleptomaniac who went along with everything because he had nothing better to do and occasionally had big gaps in his knowledge due to the TBI.
>party escapes from prison
>now lost in an unfamiliar land at night
>”hey, wait, Black Bart, you said you were a scout for the army, right? You can navigate by the stars.”
>”course I can. Watch this.”
>Black Bart stares intently at the stars for several minutes.
>”Well?”
>”I’m thinking. Hold on.”
>several more minutes pass
>”well?”
>”Frick me, there’s a lot of them.”
Irish
Based
I am guilty of having played the snarky but good-hearted bastard archetype every time I made a rogue, and many of them were tieflings. I'm still atoning for this sin. Every time someone plays that shit I wanna murder him in his sleep (IC).
Always a nobleman of course. With the jobs given to rogues in most systems being 'skill monkey' or 'effective both in social and in combat', the only acceptable answer is a noble.
Who else would know so many vocations, have skill in negotiation and fighting, have above average intelligence with average physicals? Some street urchin who hasn't spent a day studying anything other than 'where to steal bread'? Who could easily study, and afford, a rapier or even an arming sword? Some tavern brute? Where could he learn to disable magical traps and unlock any door from? Some impoverished burglar for whom method of entry is open window?
A court rogue is a spy, spymaster, noble heir, grey cardinal, plotter and schemer. He doesn't pick locks into peasant's hut, he picks locks into his rival's bedchambers to read their letters or plant evidence. He doesn't charm random guards to let him get away with pickpocketting, he charms foreign princesses to secure alliances.
Statblock must always be roleplayed, and the only way to roleplay a rogue's statblock is to be a political warrior, cold, precise, calculating and of great means to give him all of the tools that rogues are famous for. If a player brings me a character sheet of a Rogue with background 'impoverished orphan', I make him return the stolen backstory back to the fighter and remake it.
Tavern brutes and more have the most essential of skills. Talking to people because they're all synced to being skilled. Yeah you're rich but the merc can just as easily pay for the same training and knowledge by being connected and utilizing his skills for profit, influence and more. Rich guys just have a head start, other guys just start running a little later.
Cowardly and Calculated.
Focused on the quickest and most profitable solution to any predicament. If speed and profit are diametrically opposed, profit wins.
Innocent kid who’s just had a bad run of it. Never chose this life it was thrust onto him. Doesn’t mean he isn’t good at what he does. Has absolutely killed people. And does feel bad about it
I appreciate how varied rogue characters tend to be. Most traditional classes fall into like two archetypes each aside from clear attempts to subvert those particular archetypes
I self insert
nice
>What personalities do you like you give your rogues?
Rat's Instincts -- He is, first and foremost, a survivor. He grew up in terrible circumstances where virtues like pride and shame meant death, and so he learned to be ashamed of feeling shame and to take pride in being willing to fight dirtier than the other guy. He doesn't care if other people think he's scummy, he just thinks they're soft and have never had to put their lofty ideals to the test.
Moral Flexibility -- To survive, he's had to completely abandon normative ethics. He lived too long having to constantly choose between stealing and starving, and his concept of morality is so flexible that he qualifies as a moral gymnast. He will accept any means if it achieves his ends and is deeply confused by means-not-ends arguments.
Rough Justice -- He has no faith in the legal system to achieve justice, having experienced injustice from that same system. He believes in immediate and swift justice for those he considers evil. He doesn't believe in fair play. If he thinks you deserve to die, then he doesn't care if death arrives from a poisoned knife in the back.
Heart of Gold -- He has a soft spot for the weak and vulnerable. His lack of respect for the law stems from a lack of respect for those in power, which stems from how those who have power treat those who do not. He takes great offense at seeing people kick the downtrodden, which can easily trigger his sense of rough justice.
this is how I rogue
perhaps the best depiction of rogue in cinema since Poirot
It depends on the Rogue.
I made a Dwarf Rogue once who was a Lawful Neutral professional dungeoneer, but with no focus on skills like pickpocketing or acrobatics.
That is a very different rogue from others like a cutthroat thug or a cat burglar.
Since I try to vary my class selection, and I DM a lot, I've only played one Rogue so far, and another rogue would probably be somewhat different.
>Distrustful of authority but willing to cooperate if it's the smart move
>At least until the opportunity to scamper or betray presents itself
>Nice and sociable with other people
>Very well-connected
>Respected re-seller of lightly used items (posing as a Golgari Findbroker)
>Generally careful and prudent, with the occasional insane idea
>"Let's poison the wine at this party so everyone is hampered - yeah, we can drink it too, I know what I'm doing"
>Despite pretending, did not in fact have a poisoner's kit proficiency
>Extremely good at acting
>Was a traitor the entire campaign (Dimir Agent)
>Turned dying in battle due to team's incompetence and subsequent resurrection into 'proof that I would give everything for this team' and ended up above suspicion
>Would trade smaller opportunities for medium ones with plausible deniability
>Generally folksy and good at getting along with blue-collar folk
>Jumped at the chance to do stand-up comedy at open mic night one time
Roguish.
If it's 5e, I always play the swashbuckler and he's definitely not Errol Flynn/the Dread Pirate Roberts/Zorro at all.
If I play a rogue-ish type in a sci-fi game (typically Star Wars) then he's definitely not Malcolm Reynolds/Han Solo at all
>played a rogue with ocd
>he had to sit in the tavern always facing the front door
>wouldn't sit down and would stand in the corner if he couldn't
>described him as wide eyed to everyone at the table
>double checks every door if they're locked or trapped
>asking the dm if my character still has all his gear as I describe my character frantically double checking all his gear
>waits til everyone took a drink of their goblets to see if they were poisoned before drinking or eating his meals
>ask what the rations or meals are and have my character avoid foods
>I don't have some nitpicky high society taste I just got rotten bowels and most things don't sit well with me
>doesn't like to fly
>doesn't like to be touched
>doesn't like to touch
>spergs out and runs outta the room if anything gets sexual or npcs try to hit on them
>over enthusiastic about locks and clockwork to an autistic level
>if it has a lock on it someone doesn't want us in there and I don't like being told where I can and can't go whether it's a sign, some dick directing traffic, or barrier whether natural or man made
>doesn't actually care about wealth and often leaves the treasure behind once breaking in
>oooh that's fancy no wonder they put it behind this locked door, wouldn't wanna steal someone's legacy now
>the one rogue who doesn't like stealing and thinks it's kinda mean
>collects the locks from the doors if they're aren't integrated in
>has a collection of locks he practices lock picking
>has put said locks on doors in the dungeon frustrating the dm and party
>doesn't like to get his feet wet(literally)
Perfect latch key kid right here.
The best rogues are ones you don't know are rogues until he stabs you for fifty damage.
Garak, but horny
Stick to your plan. Trust no one. Stick to the plan. Forbid empathy. Stick to the plan. Anticipate, don't improvise. Stick to your plan. Never yield an advantage. Stick to the plan. Fight only the battle you're paid to fight. Ask yourself, ‘What's in it for me?’. Stick to the plan. Trust no one. Empathy is weakness. Weakness is vulnerability. This is what it takes if you want to succed. Simple.
Pirates.
I like using 'so curious it hurts' as a basis for a rogue. How they start and how they end up.. usually the same, but at least in the middle learning may occur sometimes.
>Pic unrelated
Rapists.
Fights dirty, victory is all that matters, honor is for suckers.
>Fights dirty, victory is all that matters, honor is for suckers.
Sorry but that's the shittiest "personality" a rogue can have. Everyone else in the party except maybe the paladin is exactly the same way. You're playing a bunch of people stealing gold from monsters not samurai or some shit.
Do you think for a second that the Fighter or Ranger wouldn't accept Sneak Attack damage if their class allowed it? No one cares whatsoever about "fighting honorably". How is casting Hold Person so the fighter can stab someone while paralyzed "fighting honorably"? How is turning yourself into a giant snake and eating people "fighting honorably"?
What does "fighting honorably" even mean when you're encountering a beholder or a lich? Nothing, it's stupid. Every PC is doing everything they can to win during a fight. It's like saying your character's personality is "he isn't afraid to fight monsters" or "he likes to go on adventures".
A proper thug who knows he works best with a competent crew and, ideally, a clever boss. Definitely self-interested but not necessarily greedy. To him, raiding a necromancer's crypt is really not much different from cracking skulls in a harbor turf war - you try some kind of plan, eventually that falls apart and then you fight. And then in the end sometimes you get paid and sometimes you have to skip town.
I'm sure a lot of people imagine thugs and goons as fighters but I find that ends in a character who's basically a walking fistfight and who just wants to nod along during the talky bits. A rogue thug is actually going to contribute to the team and insist that they have a proper plan that gives them decent odds. Both can be fun of course but the latter suits my RP style a lot more.
Obsessed with gold, would die for 1 copper, no morals whatsoever, will die to an obvious trap
>Saucy femme fatale?
>Good hearted locksmith in way over his head?
>Smooth and shadowy, serious infiltrator?
>Ordinary explorer that happen to be good at roguish things?
>Plucky urchin pickpocket trying to feed his siblings?
>SHADOWHAND EDGELORD the very original assassin?
>Bumbling but lucky moron?
>Dirty deeds done dirt cheap guy?
>Potion addict who is robbing people to feed his wild magic addiction like the crackhead on Governor street?
I don't care what their personalities are.
Sounds like you put a lot of thought into though.
Acts selfish and uncaring, accepts all requests for assistance like it's grossly inconvenient.
Secretly donates most of his treasure shares to hospitals or churches or the like.
?si=ex8XB9TUZzfr4Q0-
Pick a random character from a Dortmunder book and rip them off.
>"Dortmunder book"
I looked it up and this looks like like an interesting series, I'm going to check it out anon, thanks for the reference