noita is an amazing game but you're moreso playing a deckbuilder with the spells when you build a wand. it's also projectileshit
[...]
[...]
actual morons
Sure, but 2e and earlier is especially bad because it's even more limited than later editions. In 3e, you could at least use higher level spell slots for lower level stuff and had metamagic.
4e is.... 4e.
5e is a bit more freeform in letting you pick from a range of spells instead of specific for each individual slot, and can use higher slots.
No Vancian is better, but there's definitely a range among the editions.
Creativity? Variance of spells? Graphics or level of spell effects? Spell Combat? Spell crafting or systems? Pure damage or utility? Impact on the story?
as opposed to your spells just having an effect on the target without having to aim a shot. also cast time is paid up front, before you select a target
i'm literally writing a game based on this and the combat is anything but boring. make mistakes with spell choices/get interrupted during a critical precast/fail to interrupt enemy spells = u die. i think most will find it difficult or very difficult
Fighting an absudly stupid control scheme (movement being mouse-based instead of wasd) destroys any potential enjoyability magicka might otherwise have.
best spellcasting is: 1) arbitrary cast point - you choose when a spell leaves your hand
2) precasting - you select a spell to "precast" and pay its cast time cost, done before you select a target. when precasting is finished you "cast" it by selecting a target
3) precasting can be interrupted
4) precasting can be cancelled by the precasting player
5) no aiming of projectiles/spells automatically hit their target
name a game that satisfies all of these requirements
>fixed cast point
select a target -> select a spell -> wait a fixed amount of time for spell to be cast -> spell is cast at the end of cast time >arbitrary cast point
select a spell -> wait for spell to be precast -> *arbitrary amount of time* -> select a target -> spell is cast upon selecting a target
3 months ago
Anonymous
no they're not, elaborate
Meant to reply to this but I suspect you're the same anon anyway
Choosing when a spell leaves your hand, to me, has similar context to 'control' over the spell which can be exhibited in whether or not it directly hits the target or has to be aimed. Games where you cannot control the aim yet you are meant to control the 'potency' of the spell do not mesh well because you're losing the illusion of controlling the entire spell from start to finish when it zigzags around the corner and aimbots the guy in the head.
3 months ago
Anonymous
all it means is that the spell is already "precast" (you selected a spell and paid its casting cost) before you select a target. there is design space here because you're giving players a choice they don't normally have, which is the ability to not actually release a spell upon casting it, until they decide to release it.
you shouldn't be able to target things out of sight
What doesn't make sense? We're speaking in hypotheticals, if there's some sort of game engine logic we're trapped by let me know
what are you actually targeting if you have no spell to target them with? your gun has no ammo in it. you must load the gun first
3 months ago
Anonymous
why do I need a target for magic
3 months ago
Anonymous
you DONT, that is my fricking point
yet basically every fricking game with spellcasting requires you to have a target to cast a spell
3 months ago
Anonymous
try playing something other than jrpgs
3 months ago
Anonymous
Black person, this idea is inspired by a western rpg, and pretty much the only jrpgs ive actually really gotten into are from the fricking 90s like chrono trigger and final fantasy 6
3 months ago
Anonymous
Have you played any magic based games that weren't turn based recently and if so would you care to share with the class your findings
3 months ago
Anonymous
recently? i play Noita pretty frequently even though i already said i don't fully consider it a spellcasting game
3 months ago
Anonymous
OKay, can you give us some examples of what you consider 'spellcasting games'
3 months ago
Anonymous
magicka is definitely a "spellcasting game" but it's a really bad one
arx also mentioned in this thread would probably qualify for me
3 months ago
Anonymous
magicka is definitely a "spellcasting game" but it's a really bad one
arx also mentioned in this thread would probably qualify for me
ultima, diablo, elder scrolls
its kind of vague and not really getting at any real point if i just sit here and list games that have spellcasting in them, it feels like there are hardly any games that are singularly focused on magic and spellcasting. do you have a specific question about mechanics instead?
3 months ago
Anonymous
[...]
good thing i'm not arguing in favor of needing a target, i'm in favor of exactly the opposite
most games dont even let you target yourself with a fricking spell
imagine
Jesus man, what you said is basically implying the opposite, that you require a target in your ideal scenario
3 months ago
Anonymous
how? the important part here is that casting a spell (precasting) comes before anything else
seems like 99% of games fail at this step
>Why is an Arbitrary cast point unable to select a target before casting
because that doesn't make sense. you have no spell yet, what are you targeting? think about it like you have to load your gun before you can shoot it
3 months ago
Anonymous
What doesn't make sense? We're speaking in hypotheticals, if there's some sort of game engine logic we're trapped by let me know
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Needing to have something to target to cast a spell at
automatically disqualifies any chance the game has of being 'good spellcasting'
3 months ago
Anonymous
If your gun analogy were comparable it would be like saying you cannot pull the trigger without a target, but the gun is right there in your hand - loaded
good thing i'm not arguing in favor of needing a target, i'm in favor of exactly the opposite
most games dont even let you target yourself with a fricking spell
imagine
3 months ago
Anonymous
If your gun analogy were comparable it would be like saying you cannot pull the trigger without a target, but the gun is right there in your hand - loaded
yes it's close, one of the best magic systems in a video game.
but it's not perfect. spells are definitely aimed but they're not projectiles so thats a plus
i suspect you're one of the only people in the entire thread who understands what im talking about
>could summon pets to fight for you >spells to pump you up and be untouchable >could disarm traps and lockpicks >control tons of enemies >blast them to bits
BG2 fights against Liches and the like are the closest thing I've seen to actual wizard battles in vidya. Most games since have settled for magic being "pick your color of plasma hose."
Noita comes close but it is held back by its idiotic roguelike mechanics and lack of challenging enemies 10 hours in if you aren't moronic and can make good spell combos.
Dragon's Dogma is pretty good but yeah waiting to cast and lack of defensive spells to tank attacks gets old fast.
Wizard of legend, same roguelike shit issue. Plus it is way too simple a game.
Baldur's Gate 2 is the probably the best mage game all around , since it has the proper linear martials vs cuadratic arcane power curve, and great fights you can test the limits of your power. A 2nd edition gem before the need of mantaining balance got rolled out by corporate execs, so subhuman martials don't sperg out.
If any of you gays know an actual good magic game please shill the shit out of it, I am starved for a good one.
You can't actually do magic properly in video games, due to video games being what they are. Systemic pieces of work. You press a button to do [Fireball]. It's taken to be a safe and repeatable science. It is taken for granted. There's no mystery. No wonder. No horror. No weirdness. No sense of the unknown. No risk or danger or prices to pay. Where's the arcaneness? The esotery? The occult initiation?
Elden Ring is the closest thing in recent memory that comes to mind of a game that does magic right, background lore/fluff wise, while games like Oblivion or Skyrim take magic for granted, and everyone is stockpiling magic in the form of scrolls or potions or whatever. No different from today's pharmacies. Did you know that the old Greek word for pharmacy (pharmakeia) once meant sorcery/poison before it was de-mystified?
> >You press a button to do [Fireball]. It's taken to be a safe and repeatable science. It is taken for granted. There's no mystery. No wonder. No horror. No weirdness. No sense of the unknown. No risk or danger or prices to pay.
That wouldn't make a fun game but I can respect the mystery based approach, with subtle magic effect and lovecraftian prices to pay for >Elden Ring is the closest thing
Disregard that, you are a fricking idiot. You got Miyazaki's Zanzibart approach to storytelling (just make up vague shit, idiots will make up the gaps anyway lol) and ate it balls deep. Also you get exactly press button > get effect with souls magic, I can't fathom what kind of cognitive dissonance you are smoking to think you are offering a somewhat coherent point here.
Magic in Elden Ring is an esoteric mess, and comes with heavy "why would you even do this to yourself...?" downsides, be it the cancerous/contagious nature of glintstone that slowly erases the consciousness, or your eyeballs literally bursting out of their sockets for staring into crazy flames for too long.
>gameplay has nothing to do mechanicaly with the made up lore it stems from >this is somewhat good and acceptable
Another fricking moron. Gameplay is exactly the the same "press button to spell" one he was bashing, only with a faint lore barnish that is just made up esoteric bullshit because vagueness is popular among idiots. At least be coherent and say something like cultist simulator or arkham horror/world of horror, which is in line with the esoteric meme.
>Elden Ring is the closest thing in recent memory that comes to mind of a game that does magic right
really? press button to cast attack/buff magic is the best magic system? this is by far the worst take I've seen this year
>gameplay has nothing to do mechanicaly with the made up lore it stems from >this is somewhat good and acceptable
Another fricking moron. Gameplay is exactly the the same "press button to spell" one he was bashing, only with a faint lore barnish that is just made up esoteric bullshit because vagueness is popular among idiots. At least be coherent and say something like cultist simulator or arkham horror/world of horror, which is in line with the esoteric meme.
I appear to be triggering the babies.
Take it from George R R Martin himself:
—“Fantasy needs magic in it, but I try to control the magic very strictly. You can have too much magic in fantasy very easily, and then it overwhelms everything and you lose all sense of realism. And I try to keep the magic magical — something mysterious and dark and dangerous, and something never completely understood. I don’t want to go down the route of having magic schools and classes where, if you say these six words, something will reliably happen. Magic doesn’t work that way. Magic is playing with forces you don’t completely understand. And perhaps with beings or deities you don’t completely understand. It should have a sense of peril about it.”
Now, you may be wondering why he got involved in systemic video games in the first place, but he probably realized a game --REQUIRES-- consistent button mashing, so he settled for making the magic dangerous and nebulous, which it is. Blindness in-general is a theme in both game (Elden Ring) and books (ASoIaF).
So like, what's so hard to understand here? Mechanics don't mesh with background lore/fluff very well, so you have to juggle the two a bit.
The only game medium that can truly fix this issue, I think, would be the horror game genre, where you interact with the environment circumstantially.
>after being utterly ridiculed and the inconsistency of his opinion exposed, he resorted to importnet trolling by citing scat Marting as a respectable source
I accept your consession. gg ez.
>Take it from George R R Martin himself: >"just shamelessly copy moorwiener and howard, zoomers will never notice"
Thanks Martin, you truly are the American Tolkien.
The concept of magic in fiction is pretty stupid to begin with. It only works from the historical accounts that people draw it from where people say it really happened, which makes it magical. Fantasy magic is just fantasy, not magic. It's a series of fictitious events someone plans out.
Shining Force Neo for the PS2.
Setting yourself on fire, covering the whole screen in ice spikes, plowing through hordes of enemies whilst shooting a thunderstorm ahead is the best mage power fantasy, I've ever had.
in b4 dragons dogma moron claims holding down a button for 30 seconds is good spell casting
mine
no games do spellcasting correctly
its all fixed cast points and/or projectile skillshot bullshit
>mine
which one
you'll see
Hades 2
>its all fixed cast points and/or projectile skillshot bullshit
So what does yours do differently then?
the opposite of that
arbitrary cast points and no skillshots
it's focused on timing and spell choice
Toss up between Morrowind and Baldurs Gate 2.
frick off moron you're fricking clueless
Have sex.
Elaborate or consume my nuts
>Baldurs Gate 2.
Look, I fricking love BG2, but no. 2e AD&D spellcasting is dogshit.
>2e
Vancian is pure shit, doesn't matter the edition.
Sure, but 2e and earlier is especially bad because it's even more limited than later editions. In 3e, you could at least use higher level spell slots for lower level stuff and had metamagic.
4e is.... 4e.
5e is a bit more freeform in letting you pick from a range of spells instead of specific for each individual slot, and can use higher slots.
No Vancian is better, but there's definitely a range among the editions.
absolutely not arx fatalis
By what metric?
Creativity? Variance of spells? Graphics or level of spell effects? Spell Combat? Spell crafting or systems? Pure damage or utility? Impact on the story?
Way too fricking vague.
moron
Noita obviously as you actually craft spells. All games with magic should have spell weaving.
noita is an amazing game but you're moreso playing a deckbuilder with the spells when you build a wand. it's also projectileshit
actual morons
>it's also projectileshit
as opposed to what
as opposed to your spells just having an effect on the target without having to aim a shot. also cast time is paid up front, before you select a target
thats lame, youre moronic
great post
I agree with the other anon
God damn you're fricking boring. Go play some JRPG garbage.
You will never be a wizard
i'm literally writing a game based on this and the combat is anything but boring. make mistakes with spell choices/get interrupted during a critical precast/fail to interrupt enemy spells = u die. i think most will find it difficult or very difficult
Loom.
Loom is better than monkey island.
There, I said it. Fite me gays.
I was so sad when I finished Loom and figured out they never made the sequels. Absolutely beautiful game. Played the DOS version.
I've never played but Palworld.
Magicka
Fighting an absudly stupid control scheme (movement being mouse-based instead of wasd) destroys any potential enjoyability magicka might otherwise have.
A shame brainlets couldn't keep up with what Magicka expected of them because its pretty amazing.
It's just appearence
This isn't magic. It's just science/technology.
Master of Magic.
I wonder if Magicka is a bit more stable these days now that I have much better hardware.
they all suck
Fictorum was cool
magicka
you'll have to define best spellcasting first, is it in terms of mechanics like morrowind? in terms of flashing style like skyrim?
in terms that makes you say "I liked this"
morrowind design with skyrim animations and engine
best spellcasting is:
1) arbitrary cast point - you choose when a spell leaves your hand
2) precasting - you select a spell to "precast" and pay its cast time cost, done before you select a target. when precasting is finished you "cast" it by selecting a target
3) precasting can be interrupted
4) precasting can be cancelled by the precasting player
5) no aiming of projectiles/spells automatically hit their target
name a game that satisfies all of these requirements
World of warcraft, Dota
both have fixed cast points and skillshots
>Fixed cast point
I see, you mean like a 'charged' spell vs a static spell that you press once and it releases once at the same rate?
>fixed cast point
select a target -> select a spell -> wait a fixed amount of time for spell to be cast -> spell is cast at the end of cast time
>arbitrary cast point
select a spell -> wait for spell to be precast -> *arbitrary amount of time* -> select a target -> spell is cast upon selecting a target
Meant to reply to this but I suspect you're the same anon anyway
Choosing when a spell leaves your hand, to me, has similar context to 'control' over the spell which can be exhibited in whether or not it directly hits the target or has to be aimed. Games where you cannot control the aim yet you are meant to control the 'potency' of the spell do not mesh well because you're losing the illusion of controlling the entire spell from start to finish when it zigzags around the corner and aimbots the guy in the head.
all it means is that the spell is already "precast" (you selected a spell and paid its casting cost) before you select a target. there is design space here because you're giving players a choice they don't normally have, which is the ability to not actually release a spell upon casting it, until they decide to release it.
you shouldn't be able to target things out of sight
what are you actually targeting if you have no spell to target them with? your gun has no ammo in it. you must load the gun first
why do I need a target for magic
you DONT, that is my fricking point
yet basically every fricking game with spellcasting requires you to have a target to cast a spell
try playing something other than jrpgs
Black person, this idea is inspired by a western rpg, and pretty much the only jrpgs ive actually really gotten into are from the fricking 90s like chrono trigger and final fantasy 6
Have you played any magic based games that weren't turn based recently and if so would you care to share with the class your findings
recently? i play Noita pretty frequently even though i already said i don't fully consider it a spellcasting game
OKay, can you give us some examples of what you consider 'spellcasting games'
magicka is definitely a "spellcasting game" but it's a really bad one
arx also mentioned in this thread would probably qualify for me
ultima, diablo, elder scrolls
its kind of vague and not really getting at any real point if i just sit here and list games that have spellcasting in them, it feels like there are hardly any games that are singularly focused on magic and spellcasting. do you have a specific question about mechanics instead?
Jesus man, what you said is basically implying the opposite, that you require a target in your ideal scenario
how? the important part here is that casting a spell (precasting) comes before anything else
seems like 99% of games fail at this step
arx
not only fixed cast points but spells are also aimed from a first person perspective
arx
points 1 and 5 are contradictory
no they're not, elaborate
Why is an Arbitrary cast point unable to select a target before casting and why wouldn't you have some combination of the two
>Why is an Arbitrary cast point unable to select a target before casting
because that doesn't make sense. you have no spell yet, what are you targeting? think about it like you have to load your gun before you can shoot it
What doesn't make sense? We're speaking in hypotheticals, if there's some sort of game engine logic we're trapped by let me know
>Needing to have something to target to cast a spell at
automatically disqualifies any chance the game has of being 'good spellcasting'
good thing i'm not arguing in favor of needing a target, i'm in favor of exactly the opposite
most games dont even let you target yourself with a fricking spell
imagine
If your gun analogy were comparable it would be like saying you cannot pull the trigger without a target, but the gun is right there in your hand - loaded
Limited thinking like yours is why you arent an adept magic user.
mortal online 2 nearly
yes it's close, one of the best magic systems in a video game.
but it's not perfect. spells are definitely aimed but they're not projectiles so thats a plus
i suspect you're one of the only people in the entire thread who understands what im talking about
I liked being a dick-ass wizard in NWN1.
>could summon pets to fight for you
>spells to pump you up and be untouchable
>could disarm traps and lockpicks
>control tons of enemies
>blast them to bits
FFXI's was pretty tight.
Probably Noita
neverwinter nights 2 had the best spell list out of any game ever. shame that it uses that dogshit vancian system.
BG2 fights against Liches and the like are the closest thing I've seen to actual wizard battles in vidya. Most games since have settled for magic being "pick your color of plasma hose."
>game lets you destroy your computer by creating stupid spells
best feeling
The game developed on this.
I've been trying to play this or run this for years, but people only ever want to play D&D
Literally impossible.
What edition would be the easiest?
Spontaneous magic is limited only by your imagination, no video game can do that.
Arx Fatalis has my favorite system for casting even though you only need like 5 spells.
Noita comes close but it is held back by its idiotic roguelike mechanics and lack of challenging enemies 10 hours in if you aren't moronic and can make good spell combos.
Dragon's Dogma is pretty good but yeah waiting to cast and lack of defensive spells to tank attacks gets old fast.
Wizard of legend, same roguelike shit issue. Plus it is way too simple a game.
Baldur's Gate 2 is the probably the best mage game all around , since it has the proper linear martials vs cuadratic arcane power curve, and great fights you can test the limits of your power. A 2nd edition gem before the need of mantaining balance got rolled out by corporate execs, so subhuman martials don't sperg out.
If any of you gays know an actual good magic game please shill the shit out of it, I am starved for a good one.
You can't actually do magic properly in video games, due to video games being what they are. Systemic pieces of work. You press a button to do [Fireball]. It's taken to be a safe and repeatable science. It is taken for granted. There's no mystery. No wonder. No horror. No weirdness. No sense of the unknown. No risk or danger or prices to pay. Where's the arcaneness? The esotery? The occult initiation?
Elden Ring is the closest thing in recent memory that comes to mind of a game that does magic right, background lore/fluff wise, while games like Oblivion or Skyrim take magic for granted, and everyone is stockpiling magic in the form of scrolls or potions or whatever. No different from today's pharmacies. Did you know that the old Greek word for pharmacy (pharmakeia) once meant sorcery/poison before it was de-mystified?
>
>You press a button to do [Fireball]. It's taken to be a safe and repeatable science. It is taken for granted. There's no mystery. No wonder. No horror. No weirdness. No sense of the unknown. No risk or danger or prices to pay.
That wouldn't make a fun game but I can respect the mystery based approach, with subtle magic effect and lovecraftian prices to pay for
>Elden Ring is the closest thing
Disregard that, you are a fricking idiot. You got Miyazaki's Zanzibart approach to storytelling (just make up vague shit, idiots will make up the gaps anyway lol) and ate it balls deep. Also you get exactly press button > get effect with souls magic, I can't fathom what kind of cognitive dissonance you are smoking to think you are offering a somewhat coherent point here.
He said "lore/fluff wise" you red faced idiot.
Magic in Elden Ring is an esoteric mess, and comes with heavy "why would you even do this to yourself...?" downsides, be it the cancerous/contagious nature of glintstone that slowly erases the consciousness, or your eyeballs literally bursting out of their sockets for staring into crazy flames for too long.
>gameplay has nothing to do mechanicaly with the made up lore it stems from
>this is somewhat good and acceptable
Another fricking moron. Gameplay is exactly the the same "press button to spell" one he was bashing, only with a faint lore barnish that is just made up esoteric bullshit because vagueness is popular among idiots. At least be coherent and say something like cultist simulator or arkham horror/world of horror, which is in line with the esoteric meme.
>Elden Ring is the closest thing in recent memory that comes to mind of a game that does magic right
really? press button to cast attack/buff magic is the best magic system? this is by far the worst take I've seen this year
I appear to be triggering the babies.
Take it from George R R Martin himself:
—“Fantasy needs magic in it, but I try to control the magic very strictly. You can have too much magic in fantasy very easily, and then it overwhelms everything and you lose all sense of realism. And I try to keep the magic magical — something mysterious and dark and dangerous, and something never completely understood. I don’t want to go down the route of having magic schools and classes where, if you say these six words, something will reliably happen. Magic doesn’t work that way. Magic is playing with forces you don’t completely understand. And perhaps with beings or deities you don’t completely understand. It should have a sense of peril about it.”
Now, you may be wondering why he got involved in systemic video games in the first place, but he probably realized a game --REQUIRES-- consistent button mashing, so he settled for making the magic dangerous and nebulous, which it is. Blindness in-general is a theme in both game (Elden Ring) and books (ASoIaF).
So like, what's so hard to understand here? Mechanics don't mesh with background lore/fluff very well, so you have to juggle the two a bit.
The only game medium that can truly fix this issue, I think, would be the horror game genre, where you interact with the environment circumstantially.
>after being utterly ridiculed and the inconsistency of his opinion exposed, he resorted to importnet trolling by citing scat Marting as a respectable source
I accept your consession. gg ez.
FRICK THE FAT MAN
FINISH THE BOOKS
three more sci-fi novels you say?
>Take it from George R R Martin himself:
>"just shamelessly copy moorwiener and howard, zoomers will never notice"
Thanks Martin, you truly are the American Tolkien.
The concept of magic in fiction is pretty stupid to begin with. It only works from the historical accounts that people draw it from where people say it really happened, which makes it magical. Fantasy magic is just fantasy, not magic. It's a series of fictitious events someone plans out.
Magic is itself whatever-the-frick.
>magic when its called magic
>:~~*(
>magic when its called technology
:DDDD
>Magic doesn’t work that way.
stoopid kot
Arx Fatalis, absolutely.
They should make a VR Wizard dungeon crawler with Arx Garalis' magic system. Also summoning hot demon bawds to give you a lap dance. For Immersion.
Shining Force Neo for the PS2.
Setting yourself on fire, covering the whole screen in ice spikes, plowing through hordes of enemies whilst shooting a thunderstorm ahead is the best mage power fantasy, I've ever had.
vanciangays suck my dick
elden ring
BG3
all of them fricking suck