We have been over this.
Here are Horus' gripes
1-The Emperor abandoned the Great Crusade and didn't tell him why. It hurt Horus and stoked his doubts because he thought the Emperor trusted him.
2-Horus hated Malcador and after he discovered Malcador's true identity and his monstrous past he could not countenance the Emperor having him as a right-hand man
3-The Emperor hid the truth of Chaos and how the Primarchs were created.
4-The most important part. The Emperor wanted baseline humans to rule the Imperium. Not Primarchs, not Marines humans.
All are vailed reasons to turn against the Emperor.
>The Emperor abandoned the Great Crusade and didn't tell him why. It hurt Horus and stoked his doubts because he thought the Emperor trusted him.
That's literally what I said.
No, those are idiots with bad reading comprehension unable to parse a simple pulp sci fi book.
Horus doubts and manipulative behaviour are clearly foreshadowed since the first book. Being stabbed and the visions did nothing but give him an excuse to throw away his inhibitions.
[...]
Correct. It was all about his ego.
It's recognized by the characters in universe too. >Better that we had all burned in the fires of Horus' ambition than live to see this.
"this" would not have happened if Horus had been obedient, so it it his fault in the first place. Like as seething child that got reprimanded for wanting to eat glue
No, those are idiots with bad reading comprehension unable to parse a simple pulp sci fi book.
Horus doubts and manipulative behaviour are clearly foreshadowed since the first book. Being stabbed and the visions did nothing but give him an excuse to throw away his inhibitions.
Not really.
Remember that Russ' spear purified Horus and he still thought the Emperor was a shit and that the rebellion was justified.
>‘He told me. He told me that you are Brahm al-Khadour, last of the Sigillites. The cursed wanderer. The perpetual. Horus knows what you have done, the atrocities that you and your secret order heaped upon mankind during Old Night. There are some legends that even you could not erase, some texts that the last and greatest technomage of Terra could not burn. Have no doubt, my brother will seek to unmask you, before the end. He will reveal to all that the Imperial Truth was founded on lies from the very beginning, and that the galaxy cannot therefore be justly ruled by our father, or any who support it.’
From the Khan talking with Malcador in The Last Council.
Basically Horus was butthurt about being choked once by Malcador like Darth Vader when he tried to defy the edict that erased the memory of the Lost Primarchs. So he went to collect all sorts of arcane books to find who Malcador really was.
This is a nice detail that also explains why the Vengeful Spirit had a library full of anti-imperial truth books in Horus Rising, including the Book of Lorgar (!), and further supports the idea that Davin was just the last straw in a rebellion long coming.
that doesnt really make sense. at the time angron, perturabo and curze were running around doing their thing and horus barely cared, but malcador is somehow ultra bad?
angron, perturabo and curze were sanctioned or originally justified by the Imperial Truth.
The point is that Malcador was originally a witch warlord of Old Night, and that made the IT hypocritic bullshit by association.
>that doesnt really make sense.
Welcome to The Horus Heresy.
The real problem is those other scenes in the books with Horus having a friendly chat with Malcador the night before the Ullanor Triumpth. It doesn't make sense if being force choked really happened years before.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>The real problem is those other scenes in the books with Horus having a friendly chat with Malcador the night before the Ullanor Triumpth. It doesn't make sense if being force choked really happened years before.
maybe they had a reconciliation. or maybe horus got mind wiped. wouldnt have been the first time.
None of those are valid reasons to plunge the Imperium into a massive civil war that cost billions of lives.
1 - Couldn't cope with secrets existing even though Alpharius was well known as the keeper of secrets.
2 - Couldn't cope with morally grey leaders even though he sided with "broken monsters" during the Heresy.
3 - The Imperium had always known there were psychic predators in the Warp. Why should Horus give a shit that he was partially created from the Warp?
4 - Being an Astartes supremacist is the most foul reason of all to turn traitor. That attitude brought out the worst in every character who subscribed to it.
Horus turned because of his ambition and fear of being forgotten. Everything else is just rationalization after the fact.
Of course not. It pretty much proves the Emperor right when he choose to have ordinary mortals run the Imperium. All these superpowered egomaniacs are willing to inflict galaxy wide suffering just to satisfy some petty grudge. The Primarchs as a group were obviously unfit to rule.
Does it matter?
the emperor planning to get rid of the primarchs and the marines who have lived, breathed, killed and done everything for him, just so that he would be the sole ruler, is the actual fricking betrayal. If that's not a good enough reason to throw a rebellion (He's gonna kill me, my brothers and all the legions) I don't know what the frick you are
no, I'm not a horus apologist, he was a fricking c**t who massacred billions in a severe act of hypocrisy, but whoever thinks the emperor was "right" or "good" has mental fricking damage. The emperor and primarchs may be powerful, but through their massive flaws they are shown to be humans after all
>the emperor planning to get rid of the primarchs and the marines who have lived, breathed, killed and done everything for him, just so that he would be the sole ruler, is the actual fricking betrayal.
Which is something Malcador says once to some dying Eldar clone or whatever. In the final books Malcador says they expected casualties among the Primarchs but ultimately hoped they survived.
>The emperor and primarchs may be powerful, but through their massive flaws they are shown to be humans after all
Which is, like, the whole point? Handing massive power to these people was a mistake to begin with and only led to disaster. Various perpetuals constantly express this world view. In fact, I think they added them just to explain the point to the media illiterate audience.
[...]
Didn't the Emperor always anticipate there would be something like the Horus Heresy?
It is insinuated once that he planned it which always struck me as dumb. We already have an example of how the Emperor gets rid of people, specifically the Thunder Warriors.
First he simply stopped producing them and then when their numbers dwindled he had them massacred during their final battle. If you want to get rid of the Space Marines then having a massive galaxy wide war is just about the dumbest way to do it and out of line with how he did it in the past.
2 months ago
Anonymous
I guess there's a conflict there in like >if he suddenly cut resources to the primarchs they would realise what he was doing >some primarchs are appropriate for an era of peace, some are not >he would probably accept any cost in lives to establish the era of peace given how much blood had already been shed
I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted Horus to stand against him but I wouldn't be surprised if he did ultimately plan to destroy primarchs like Russ, Angron, Mortarion, Khan, Curze etc.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Khan was of use in a peaceful Imperium to be a rapid reaction and response to any emerging threats, and to indulge the Emperor's desire to explore, roam, and adventure on the fringes as a protector. The two of them argued every time they met, and never agreed on anything, and yet the Emperor genuinely liked having those shouting matches with Jaghatai.
2 months ago
Anonymous
the important part is that they would be sidelined and not have a part in the galaxy he wanted to build.
that's probably why horus was his favorite and magnus and guilliman were the problem children. magnus and guilliman actually built prosperous advanced societies that rivaled or surpassed terra in their own ways. they weren't just warriors, which makes them much harder to dispose of.
i actually think the conversation between guilliman and the emperor is one of the best things of "nu40k", which overall I despise. Guilliman was seen as a failure, but as in individual, not just a primarch, he distinguished himself from his peers as being too much a lord to be tool he was supposed to be.
guilliman is like the opposite of sanguinus, who fully loved his father in a familial way. guilliman served his father like a duke, but always prioritized his lands and people not the imperium as a whole.
anyway that's enough primarch wank for me, next you will have me jerking off the khan for 3 posts.
2 months ago
Anonymous
This is why whatever your feelings on primaris and cawl it was fine and good to bring Gulliman back, actually.
2 months ago
Anonymous
I agree, you can cast accusations of marvel all day long but he's a good fit for many reasons in the 42k storyline.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Disagree. Primarchs should've stayed in 30k.
2 months ago
Anonymous
I think having the daemon primarchs as present as background characters in 40k was cool. Now they feel cheapened. The loyalists definitely shouldn't have returned.
2 months ago
Anonymous
> nu40k", which overall I despise.
Why?
2 months ago
Anonymous
its a massive escalation in selling out the 'vibe' of 40k for corpo profit. You really think the 40k story leads came up with primaris, and not the sales department? primaris and cawl was a clear decision to change the very nature of 40k and heavily sanitize it. just look at 9th and 10th edition marine art. every marine is a highly saturated color, with flat uninspired art and no shading or grime. Everything looks like the lego star wars of 40k.
The current 42k plot exists because they wanted to make marine players, the wealthiest and dumbest part of their player base, rebuy their entire army.
I'm not saying talented writers can't tell great stories in that environment or good products can't be made, but its the end of a long downhill road as things get worse, and worse, and worse. I'm not dooming, I love 40k and am here for the long haul. What I am saying is that 90% of primaris designs are fricking moronic and lack an understanding of the design elements that made people love 40k in the first place.
Making marines bUt wItHoUt aLl tHe dRaWbAcKs is just fricking stupid. The imperium is supposed to be a crumbling edifice of the failed dreams of humanity and its attempt to make a utopian society.
the texture of the imperium has changed, and the writers needed a character like gulliman to make everything SEEM hopeless through his eyes even though the imperium has more hope now than it has in thousands of years, has a better chance of reform and better human rights, and all the grimdark tech just got the 2.0 patch to not be so shitty.
Why use a dreadnought with a tortured corpse of an insane and mentally decaying legendary hero when u can just make a suit with an alive guy? why use the rhino, a land speeder, a manticore? those are ICKY but the new heroic scale!
Its corpo trash, and ironically a lot of the riskier cooler stuff that has an ounce of SOVL in it is the most hated, like Votann.
2 months ago
Anonymous
You haven't been paying attention have you? Just about all those changes have been walked back because people hate them so much . Expect primaris lore to be dropped entirely within the next 5 years.
2 months ago
Anonymous
I would like to believe you're correct. I hate primaris lore but i actually like the proportions of their models more. if only their designs weren't so ugly
2 months ago
Anonymous
They don't use primaris on any of their branding, there's no longer a distinction between "first born" and primaris in the rules when it comes to transports. The new terminator sculpts are primaris size and there is no change lore wise to how terminator armour works. They're slowly squatting primaris lore.
2 months ago
Anonymous
nta, but the primaris lore hasn't been squatted. It has just reached the point it was always going to reach: replacing the old style marines with mostly shallow differences.
2 months ago
Anonymous
I would like to believe you're correct. I hate primaris lore but i actually like the proportions of their models more. if only their designs weren't so ugly
They don't use primaris on any of their branding, there's no longer a distinction between "first born" and primaris in the rules when it comes to transports. The new terminator sculpts are primaris size and there is no change lore wise to how terminator armour works. They're slowly squatting primaris lore.
This is fine, but I'd like it better if they actually advanced their setting. Give me Guilliman reforming the Imperium successfully, but some parts break away. Or Girlyman outright proclaims himself Emperor of Ultramar and Terra, while someone saves and moves Big E's corpse and its throne somewhere else.
I want the setting to go further. If you wanna appease grognards, then split it between Warhammer 40k and 42k officially.
Tl;dr Primaris are gay but all the Guilliman stuff is based.
2 months ago
Anonymous
That would be the most welcome retcon
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Expect primaris lore to be dropped entirely within the next 5 years.
Lmao. JUST TWO MORE WEEKS U GAIZ! T-TRUST THE PLAN! The only way GW is ever dropping primaris is if they find a way to make marinepiggies rebuy their army for a fourth time in less than a decade
2 months ago
Anonymous
>its a massive escalation in selling out the 'vibe' of 40k for corpo profit.
40k has always been "for corpo profit" since the start, you child. It's so tiresome to see this moronation being repeated again and again just because you were a kid and didn't know better, ffs.
Like, the only reason there are even space elfs and orcs in 40k is because they though weird aliens weren't going to sell well, so they made sci fi versions of fantasy slop. Or that GW streamlined the rules in 3rd ed. to make it easier for kids and sell armies with more minis.
GW HAS ALWAYS OPERATED IN THE SAME WAY YOU HIPSTER homosexualS
Any kino or soulful stuff has been a happy coincidence.
2 months ago
Anonymous
ur moronic. the amount of creative freedom a privately owned company can give its artists versus a shareholder owned one is night and day. tell me the year and edition GW stopped being a private company without looking it up.
2 months ago
Anonymous
You talk edgy twenty somethings shit, while I speak of facts. And it was in 1989-90 during the RT era.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>The imperium is supposed to be a crumbling edifice of the failed dreams of humanity and its attempt to make a utopian society. >the imperium has more hope now than it has in thousands of years, has a better chance of reform and better human rights,
This is the type of thing that makes it pretty hard to take complaints seriously.
My guy, the galaxy is cut in two. The Imperium lost basically everything on one side of the rift. The state over there is basically said to be the Age of Strife all over again. Guilliman specifically says in the new edition trailer that the preachers loudly proclaim victory while the struggle is basically hopeless. Sure, he might want to reform things but can he and has he? No. Shit, even before they added all of this pretty much every rulebook since 4th edition has said that things are increasingly dire, the throne is failing, Abaddon is poised to frick them all up and a new wave of Tyranids is inbound., Guillimans wounds were supposedly slowly healing and so on.
It's the same shit it's always been only now it's got Primaris. I get, people don't like the way they were shoved in, I'm not a fan of it either. The broader setting though? Let's not lie to ourselves here, it's fine. Not only that, much of it has been foreshadowed for years.
2 months ago
Anonymous
yeah but primarchs coming back and bigE now confirmed to be alive and kicking and even winning in the warp... when before it was a real possibility hes truly dead and really just a corpse just as the chaos space marines said.
also cawl bringing technological progress back, possible powerful alliances with eldar, necrons etc. in the making, that have the potential to beat chaos and the tyranids.
in old 40k the trend was only down with little volatility, now in nu-40k the trend is still down but with high volatility and a real chance for a trend reversal. thats a huge difference.
2 months ago
Anonymous
remember the fall of cadia when for a brief moment the pylons were activated and the eye of terror began to shrink. the fricking eye of terror shrinking, potentially closing...chaos main base being wiped out. chaos actually panicking and having to drop a blackstone fortress in a desperate attempt to stop that. that was thought to be impossible before and now suddenly its something that is technically realistically possible and only necron infighting is preventing it from being done right now, and cawl has already copied the tech and is testing it. if that isnt change and source for "hope" then what is?
2 months ago
Anonymous
>the fricking eye of terror shrinking, potentially closing
"hope is the first step in the road to disappointment"
2 months ago
Anonymous
>when before it was a real possibility hes truly dead
That has never been true in the lore except for a year between RT and Realms of Chaos was released. > cawl bringing technological progress back
never happened > possible powerful alliances with eldar, necrons etc. in the making
never happened
>maybe it could have been handled well if GW hired writers with talent
The BL series is written largely by the same people who wrote for the studio side of things. Check the names on the Forge World books and the old Index Astartes supplements and compare them to BL. It's just that writing a novel series is a lot harder than writing a few dozen pages outlining just the broad strokes.
Correct. Even the current guy in charge of FW, Andy Hoare, has written BL novels.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>> possible powerful alliances with eldar, necrons etc. in the making >never happened
guilliman has eldar allies vs. chaos, the mechanicus is regularly meeting up with dark eldar to discuss golden throne issues, the silent king wants humans to survive because he wants them as biological hosts for the necrons and he is also a blood angels fan. thats a good baseline for negotiations.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>guilliman has eldar allies vs. chaos,
they have a non agression understanding with Eldrad, which is not the same >the mechanicus is regularly meeting up with dark eldar to discuss golden throne issues
That was BEFORE the return of Guilliman and ended when an inquisitor discovered that those DEldar wanted to create a clone of the Emperor >the silent king wants humans to survive because he wants them as biological hosts for the necrons
He already decided against it >he is also a blood angels fan
Never happened. There's only that scene of him fooling Dante into doing his bidding.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>when before it was a real possibility hes truly dead and really just a corpse just as the chaos space marines said.
This was literally never a thing outside of the earliest days of Rogue Trader when 40k was still largely undefined. Even back in the 90s there was a series of books called Inquisition War where our boy Jaq Draco has an honest to god conversation with Emperor. This wasn't one of those, I can't even remember it, it was an intense experience. No, the Emperor straight up b***hes at him for a while about how he's got no choice but to be cruel.
>also cawl bringing technological progress back
Cawl is one guy and the stuff he's making is limited to marines. The Admech as a whole is still what it always was.
>possible powerful alliances with eldar, necrons etc. in the making,
Again, this was a thing. The Eldar were always regarded as potential but unreliable allies. They've always helped the Imperium when it suited them - see the Gothic War. The Necrons objective is also very clear - they want to dominate the galaxy and subordinate everyone to them. It's the same old "enemy of my enemy" thing that 40k has always had. Shit, the older Ork codicies even said that Blood Axes Orks like to hire themselves out as mercenaries to Imperials willing to supply them with arms.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>when before it was a real possibility hes truly dead and really just a corpse
How can someone invested in the lore possibly ever have thought the Emperor was actually dead? Pretty much every edition's core rulebook's fluff tries desperately to beat into your head that the Emperor still being alive is the only reason why warp travel is possible, and the possibility of him actually dying one of these days would be the final cataclysm that would actually thoroughly destroy the Imperium, if not humanity as a whole. The only thing left vague in the fluff descriptions was how cognizant he was about what was going on.
2 months ago
Anonymous
the astronomicon could just be the golden throne in autopilot mode powered by the 1000 psykers they sacrifice every day. there were/are similar warp beacons in the galaxy. no bigE needed for that.
and the fluff is written from the perspective of the imperium, so obviously they write the emperor is totally still alive and he talks to his custodes in dreams and shit, when in reality this may just be cope.
2 months ago
Anonymous
There is no way a measly thousand psykers a day could possibly power a beacon that the entire galaxy can see, not to mention keep the warp rift beneath the palace closed.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>There is no way a measly thousand psykers a day could possibly power a beacon that the entire galaxy can see
They aren't, the emperor is. The emperor is essentially absorbing their warp power and using it far more efficiently.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yes, I know. I was talking about his headcanon where the Emperor is dead and the golden throne works on auto pilot.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Ah shit my bad. To play devils advocate, the golden throne itself could act like a warp refinery thats simply far more efficient than any other warp beacon in the galaxy.
That said, personally I've always thought it was obvious the Emperor was still alive.
2 months ago
Anonymous
The golden throne is a so called "pain engine" that allows the user to manipulate the warp and the webway. The Emperor has to sit on it to keep closed the warp rift that Magnus opened when he did "nothing wrong"
2 months ago
Anonymous
>There is no way a measly thousand psykers a day could possibly power a beacon that the entire galaxy can see
They aren't, the emperor is. The emperor is essentially absorbing their warp power and using it far more efficiently.
he is dead anon. its over. when guilliman entered the throne room he only saw a dry, desiccated corpse without any signs of life. no one spoke to him. the only thing he heard was the whirring of the golden throne. he then realized that what he was told, that the emperor is still alive and protecting the imperium, communicating in dreams and visions, was just a way to cope with the fact that he is dead. repression and denial that over centuries and millenia had become a dogma and a religion that helped the imperium to survive, helped the people to persevere in a doomed world. guilliman knew, if he told the people that his father is dead it would break the imperium. guilliman decided to play along and not tell anybody that the emperor is dead. when he left the throne room and was asked what happened he just said he knows all he needs to know. he has to save the imperium on his own.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>There is no way a measly thousand psykers a day could possibly power a beacon that the entire galaxy can see
They aren't, the emperor is. The emperor is essentially absorbing their warp power and using it far more efficiently.
the "thousand psykers a day" has nothing to do directly with the Astronomicon. The beacon is powered by trained linked astropaths singing in a choir until they burnt out and are replaced, but they aren't the psykers fed to the Golden throne to keep the Emperor alive.
The Astronomicon worked when Big E was away conquering stuff during the Great Crusade and it actually was down twice: once during the Siege of Terra and another time when the Great Rift opened. While it's true that the Emperor "guides it", it's powered indepently of him.
2 months ago
Anonymous
i dont know why people like you badly misunderstand Priestly.
The Emperor is alive. Priestly said its funny because very few people know that for certain because they arent permitted to enter his chamber and check
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yeah bro, in-universe Imperial propaganda is all about how their god is actually a barely-alive husk that could croak any day now. You fricking moron.
That wasn't his reason though. Horus got pissed because Erebus showed him a vision of the future where he was forgotten and the Emperor was worshipped as a god. Erebus preyed on Horus' fear and ambition, and it worked so well that he still turned traitor even after Magnus showed Erebus to be full of shit. Horus has no excuse.
2 months ago
Anonymous
almost like all of 40k isnt just a parable that being a 600 iq superhuman ubermensch doesn't stop you from being a complete moron.
its actually a very human story across the span of it.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Exactly, which is why the Emperor was reluctant to seize control and wanted to put power back in the hands of mortals who could check and balance each other as soon as possible.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Which is something never brought up by his brainlet critics.
>the emperor planning to get rid of the primarchs and the marines who have lived, breathed, killed and done everything for him, just so that he would be the sole ruler
This is moronic and completely false. First off, he wouldn't have needed to get rid of the Astartes since they aren't unstable like Thunder Warriors. Just stop making them once the wars are done and have the remaining ones retire in whatever way works for them (administrators of Ultramarines, explorers for White Scars, researchers for Thousand Sons etc.) and die of old age. As for the Primarchs, not only do all of them have their true warp forms they would have unlocked (so absolutely moronic to make these uber powerful immortal demigods/nascent godlings just to wipe them out), each of them had a role to play after the great crusade. Magnus would have sat on the Golden Throne while being free to astraly explore the warp, Curze would have been the High Judge, Roboute obviously the administrator, Dorn and Perturabo the builders etc. He also never wanted to rule and was actively working on putting the power back into regular human hands as soon as everything was in place.
Does it matter?
the emperor planning to get rid of the primarchs and the marines who have lived, breathed, killed and done everything for him, just so that he would be the sole ruler, is the actual fricking betrayal. If that's not a good enough reason to throw a rebellion (He's gonna kill me, my brothers and all the legions) I don't know what the frick you are
no, I'm not a horus apologist, he was a fricking c**t who massacred billions in a severe act of hypocrisy, but whoever thinks the emperor was "right" or "good" has mental fricking damage. The emperor and primarchs may be powerful, but through their massive flaws they are shown to be humans after all
Didn't the Emperor always anticipate there would be something like the Horus Heresy?
That is the plan of the dark king who is the emperor of the future trying to manipulate the emperor of the past in order to conceive his own birth, he is playing chess 11d
>dark king: with this card I eliminate your cards on the field, the cards in your hand, your deck and... uh... Nurgle's deck. >*Nurgle's garden catches fire again*
He is stated to have suspected that he would have to deal with a rebellion, but nothing on the scale of the Heresy, more likely 1-2 Legions going bad much like how the 2nd and 11th had fricked up.
By all indications, the Emperor's actual expectation was that Guilliman would rebel and decide to build his own empire, and pretty much every single Primarch who ever met Guilliman thought the same thing. It's part of why the Emperor never really trusted Rowboat like the others, and was colder toward him than he was his favourite sons.
actually guilliman was one of the emperors least favorite. he hated guilliman, probably because guilliman was a somewhat well adjusted free thinker and not really manipulated.
his favorite sons were all the most blindingly loyal like sanguinus, dorn, and horus.
the emperor makes a lot more sense when you realize he was literally just an insanely powerful psyker. he couldn't cast any spell or do anything, he had very specific abilities: >Genius level scientist, able to personally learn from the greatest genesmiths of earth and then improve on their work in just a few generations >psychic glamour, will always appear to be the most trustworthy and attractive he possibly can to any human who sees him
He needed a power up from the chaos gods to even become as powerful as he was towards the end of the great crusade. he walked the same path as horus, but stole their power instead of surrendering to them. then he did his best with his limited understanding of chaos to fight them. hes lived so long he can't see humans in the same light as a mortal. he can't value them as individuals anymore, unless they immortals like him. that's why his closest friends where constantin and malcador, also deeply mentally unwell immortal weirdos who mean well by are still HUMAN and the FALLIBLE.
The emperor straight up did not correctly judge the character of every single one of his primarchs correctly. Every one was mishandled, and like an autist who physically cannot conceptualize that other people don't have the same knowledge as him, just assumed the majority of them would follow him "because it's only logical".
2 months ago
Anonymous
in my head canon that techno barbarian warlord in birth of the imperium actually said the truth to valdor. that bigE is actually not human at all but a weapon from the dark age of technology that went rogue. he is probably an AI that can manipulate the warp. so when the mechanicus says hes an avatar of the machine god, thats probably closer to the truth than what the imperium thinks he is.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>he couldn't cast any spell or do anything, he had very specific abilities >He needed a power up from the chaos gods to even become as powerful as he was towards the end of the great crusade
This is plainly untrue even going by the shitty nu-lore. The Emperor stole parts of the warp to make primarch souls, he himself can just freely use warp juice with no drawbacks, except if he goes overboard he turns into the Dark King or some shit. He beat Void Dragon in the middle ages, way before he stole the warp stuff.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>stole
If he can freely use it, it isn't stealing. It's his to use as he sees fit.
2 months ago
Anonymous
You're right, the four troon ''gods'' call it stealing even though they stood on the sidelines and watched like little b***hes while chad Emperor swung his dick around, then made an alliance despite the meme great game bullshit and used the most craven, subversive ploys they could do bring him down. And still failed.
2 months ago
Anonymous
The emperor clearly pulled shaninigans (the details of which are unknown) to reach his current power. Horus is directly shown to follow the same path as the emperor to become the champion of chaos. He got a power up from the great 4 at some point, possibly before the unification wars.
They start explaining that here and develop it in two other books. Also this is one of the less shitty BL books I've read, take that for what you will.
I'm pretty sure that GW has out and out said the shaman origin backstory is not true, some people theorize he's a DAOT super weapon who gained human form, I think to Dune. One noble person with the highest level of prescience in the galaxy takes the steps he thinks will ultimately save the entire human species. Paul Atreides unleashes war and genocide on a scale never seen in his world because he saw that on the other side of it was salvation. That theme seems very alive in 40k today.
Its pointless to speculate on how old the emperor is and when he became so powerful, but he definitely changed and became stronger at some point, this is hard fact in the story.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Horus is directly shown to follow the same path as the emperor to become the champion of chaos
Horus was directly empowered by the chaos gods while the Emperor, who actively opposed them, was able to power himself up with the warp despite them. They're completely opposite. His trip to the warp might be where he learned how to do so, but again, he beat fricking Void Dragon tens of thousands of years earlier. Unless they retcon that too, because rather then streamline the story and maybe add a few bits the little b***hes calling themselves writers completely turned the entire story on its head to cope with their daddy issues.
2 months ago
Anonymous
We don't know the details of the his conflict (if it can even be called that) with the Void Dragon. Perhaps it's enslaved using Necron technology as we know they can cage C'tan. Perhaps it's dormant or powerless for some reason. Perhaps it was pressured somehow to ally with the Emperor. We have none of the details so saying he 'beat fricking Void Dragon tens of thousands of years earlier' is speculation at best and shows your extreme bias to this interpretation.
Show me a line that in any codex, book, community article... ANYTHING... that explicitly says that the Emperor beat whatever hides inside of mars, or even that it is for sure the Void Dragon or a significant part of it. The Necron have shards of the Void Dragon elsewhere, so it's at least not the complete form.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>shows your extreme bias to this interpretation
You're right, I am extremely biased. The Emperor used to be this supreme gigachad protector of humanity who was so powerful he was only brought down by his love for his son which made the setting incredibly tragic. Then every failed writer who couldn't make it anywhere else used 40k as their personal therapy session/failed springboard attempt and made him stupider and less powerful as time went on, also making the story worse and more nonsensical because they were warping it's very foundations. >The Necron have shards of the Void Dragon elsewhere
Another moronic newcron retcon where they nerfed the C'tan who were a foil to Chaos as fell as the Emperor and the Eldar by proxy. All coming together in the mother of all moronic retcons where apparently the War in Heaven was paused to fight against Chaos.
2 months ago
Anonymous
You need to read Mechanicum and shut the frick up
2 months ago
Anonymous
NTA, but you take everything in that book at face value? The guardian dude even says he's not the first and just got his knowledge and duties second hand.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>some people theorize he's a DAOT super weapon who gained human form
That theory started in Black Library and ended there when multiple characters of age with him confirmed it is bullshit, he is that old and yes he is from 8000 BC or thereabouts, and yes he was an aberration of unfathomable power formed with psyker energies even then.
2 months ago
Anonymous
personally, i doing think it matters really. everyone probably has their favorite interpretation of the lore, that's by design. fortunately the questions will likely never be answered and it will always be a mystery.
What really gets me is that Malcador could have immediately said when Horus, the Khan, and Alpharius barged in that it was the Emperor's order, but he ego-tripped over something the Primarchs were justifiably angry about. He further had a throne made with two skulls embedded in the armrest, with the markings 2nd and 11th on it. Frankly, I do not fricking like Malcador. He's a sniveling worm who sat in a hole for thousands of years while humanity burned, and only left it after the greatest man appeared. Frick him. Malcador chastised Horus because he hated transhumans, saying they have no right to rule humanity. Meanwhile, the same immortal man when the call to lead humanity was given, he did not answer. Horus was 100% correct in that moment.
Why would anyone be mad that the piece of shit stayed being a piece of shit himself instead of becoming tyrant #13525346 on earth I don’t get this post
Only >The most important part. The Emperor wanted baseline humans to rule the Imperium. Not Primarchs, not Marines humans.
Is correct
His other reason were: >WAAAAH I DON'T HAVE A STATUE ON A FUTURE NIGHTMARE PLANET >WAAAAH I'M NOT ACTUALLY THE EMPEROR'S SON, I'M A CLONE. >WAAAAAAH A COMPLETELY UNTRUSTWORTHY MAN WHO MY BROTHER PROVED IS LYING TO ME SAID DADDY WANTS TO BECOME A GOD, EVEN THOUGH ALL THE EVIDENCE OF HIS GOVERNMENT CONVEYS THE OPPOSITE >WAAAAAAAH HORUS KILL DADDY
>The Emperor abandoned the Great Crusade and didn't tell him why
Yes he fricking well did.
He said he was returning to Terra to work on setting up the administration of the Imperium because it was falling behind (it was, and the Emperor was spending time setting that up to get ready for the Crusade to end and the Imperium, and humanity, to be unified). He also said he needed to spend time in the Imperial Dungeon to work on more projects and tech advances (he did, because of the Mars Treaty), and Horus even fricking knew that the Emperor was working on Warpshit tech because he knew all about the anti-Warp defences the Emperor had built on Terra and upgraded right when he returned there after Ullanor.
The "daddy didn't tell me" excuse is and always was bullshit.
exploring the HH was a mistake, maybe it could have been handled well if GW hired writers with talent, but that ship has sailed, only upside is GW will likely trash all their HH stuff and retcon it all in 10 or 20 years
The HH became a setting 20 years ago with the TCG and Visions of Heresy.
It's time to let it go. Your pre-HH 40k is not coming back just like your hair and your erections.
Pre heresy is not coming back idiot, I said it will be retconned, prepare for women primarchs, black and brown ones ones, trannies and all sorts of other stuff, and by that point you will be a grog and told not to complain about the changes cos it's better like you now tell current grogs, enjoy
>delusional /misc/troon making up fantasies to be mad about
Go back
It's already happening, isn't there a woman now who created the primarchs? lmao you tards won't realize until it's too late and it's hilarious watching it happen
>Man requires woman to make his children >NOOO THIS IS HECKIN WOKEY TROON POO SLOP THEY'RE TURNING THE SPACE FROGS GAY
homosexual. Say it out loud to yourself so it might sink in quicker.
2 months ago
Anonymous
primarch shit is moronic, but implying you need a frickin woman to make test tube giga homies in the year 30,000 is double moronic.
The HH became a setting 20 years ago with the TCG and Visions of Heresy.
It's time to let it go. Your pre-HH 40k is not coming back just like your hair and your erections.
It was a setting for Wargames in the 80's and 90's with the release of Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine, and the Siege of Terra chit wargame. It was just threadbare as a setting back then beyond just the obvious Paradise Lost references.
>maybe it could have been handled well if GW hired writers with talent
The BL series is written largely by the same people who wrote for the studio side of things. Check the names on the Forge World books and the old Index Astartes supplements and compare them to BL. It's just that writing a novel series is a lot harder than writing a few dozen pages outlining just the broad strokes.
Ego. Unlike many of his brothers, he couldn't accept being ultimately a tool to help humanity and reach a point where he no longer was necessary.
It's not deep, just your garden variety Lucifer and Paradise Lost reference and it's all explained in the False Gods novel. But fans cannot seem to grok it despite how clear it's explained.
I find it funny how the idea of "Emperor&co stepping back and letting normal humies rule" is completely preposterous as no matter how much morons here will procalim him pure good, those who achieve great power, seldom would surrender it.
Not having an actual personality.
For real, even though the series is literally named after him, he's the most banal out of all the primarchs, and it doesn't help that Abnett and McNeill wrote him like he's a second rate politician
This. He's basically nobody's favorite primarch and everyone would rather write Curze of Sanguinius or Magnus or whoever. Very ironically, the series turned Perturabo into a star while burying Horus, the opposite of their in-story status,
>DADDY DIDN'T ANSWER MY CALLS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
We have been over this.
Here are Horus' gripes
1-The Emperor abandoned the Great Crusade and didn't tell him why. It hurt Horus and stoked his doubts because he thought the Emperor trusted him.
2-Horus hated Malcador and after he discovered Malcador's true identity and his monstrous past he could not countenance the Emperor having him as a right-hand man
3-The Emperor hid the truth of Chaos and how the Primarchs were created.
4-The most important part. The Emperor wanted baseline humans to rule the Imperium. Not Primarchs, not Marines humans.
All are vailed reasons to turn against the Emperor.
>We have been over this
Ah yes, the calling card of /tg/'s biggest incel
That's nice, incel
>The Emperor abandoned the Great Crusade and didn't tell him why. It hurt Horus and stoked his doubts because he thought the Emperor trusted him.
That's literally what I said.
Didn't Horus also get stabbed by an evil dagger, which made him do evil things because bad writing?
Not really.
Remember that Russ' spear purified Horus and he still thought the Emperor was a shit and that the rebellion was justified.
It's recognized by the characters in universe too.
>Better that we had all burned in the fires of Horus' ambition than live to see this.
"this" would not have happened if Horus had been obedient, so it it his fault in the first place. Like as seething child that got reprimanded for wanting to eat glue
>Remember that Russ' spear purified Horus
This is a euphemism for gaysex, innit?
Yes
Ah, yes. The Poop Knife.
No, those are idiots with bad reading comprehension unable to parse a simple pulp sci fi book.
Horus doubts and manipulative behaviour are clearly foreshadowed since the first book. Being stabbed and the visions did nothing but give him an excuse to throw away his inhibitions.
Correct. It was all about his ego.
>because bad writing?
What's more feasible, rewriting the bad writing or removing the bad writing?
>Malcador's true identity and his monstrous past
who was he? what did he do?
He was David Duke. He said the N-word without getting a pass first.
>‘He told me. He told me that you are Brahm al-Khadour, last of the Sigillites. The cursed wanderer. The perpetual. Horus knows what you have done, the atrocities that you and your secret order heaped upon mankind during Old Night. There are some legends that even you could not erase, some texts that the last and greatest technomage of Terra could not burn. Have no doubt, my brother will seek to unmask you, before the end. He will reveal to all that the Imperial Truth was founded on lies from the very beginning, and that the galaxy cannot therefore be justly ruled by our father, or any who support it.’
From the Khan talking with Malcador in The Last Council.
Basically Horus was butthurt about being choked once by Malcador like Darth Vader when he tried to defy the edict that erased the memory of the Lost Primarchs. So he went to collect all sorts of arcane books to find who Malcador really was.
This is a nice detail that also explains why the Vengeful Spirit had a library full of anti-imperial truth books in Horus Rising, including the Book of Lorgar (!), and further supports the idea that Davin was just the last straw in a rebellion long coming.
that doesnt really make sense. at the time angron, perturabo and curze were running around doing their thing and horus barely cared, but malcador is somehow ultra bad?
>that doesnt really make sense.
Welcome to The Horus Heresy.
angron, perturabo and curze were sanctioned or originally justified by the Imperial Truth.
The point is that Malcador was originally a witch warlord of Old Night, and that made the IT hypocritic bullshit by association.
The real problem is those other scenes in the books with Horus having a friendly chat with Malcador the night before the Ullanor Triumpth. It doesn't make sense if being force choked really happened years before.
>The real problem is those other scenes in the books with Horus having a friendly chat with Malcador the night before the Ullanor Triumpth. It doesn't make sense if being force choked really happened years before.
maybe they had a reconciliation. or maybe horus got mind wiped. wouldnt have been the first time.
he posted mean tweets in M2
M3 you rigger netard
Did this passage really just call a mirroring an “act of symbolic violence”?
no, it said "symbolic act of violence". moron.
an act of violence which is itself a symbol. moron.
None of those are valid reasons to plunge the Imperium into a massive civil war that cost billions of lives.
1 - Couldn't cope with secrets existing even though Alpharius was well known as the keeper of secrets.
2 - Couldn't cope with morally grey leaders even though he sided with "broken monsters" during the Heresy.
3 - The Imperium had always known there were psychic predators in the Warp. Why should Horus give a shit that he was partially created from the Warp?
4 - Being an Astartes supremacist is the most foul reason of all to turn traitor. That attitude brought out the worst in every character who subscribed to it.
Horus turned because of his ambition and fear of being forgotten. Everything else is just rationalization after the fact.
Of course not. It pretty much proves the Emperor right when he choose to have ordinary mortals run the Imperium. All these superpowered egomaniacs are willing to inflict galaxy wide suffering just to satisfy some petty grudge. The Primarchs as a group were obviously unfit to rule.
Does it matter?
the emperor planning to get rid of the primarchs and the marines who have lived, breathed, killed and done everything for him, just so that he would be the sole ruler, is the actual fricking betrayal. If that's not a good enough reason to throw a rebellion (He's gonna kill me, my brothers and all the legions) I don't know what the frick you are
no, I'm not a horus apologist, he was a fricking c**t who massacred billions in a severe act of hypocrisy, but whoever thinks the emperor was "right" or "good" has mental fricking damage. The emperor and primarchs may be powerful, but through their massive flaws they are shown to be humans after all
>the emperor planning to get rid of the primarchs and the marines who have lived, breathed, killed and done everything for him, just so that he would be the sole ruler, is the actual fricking betrayal.
Which is something Malcador says once to some dying Eldar clone or whatever. In the final books Malcador says they expected casualties among the Primarchs but ultimately hoped they survived.
>The emperor and primarchs may be powerful, but through their massive flaws they are shown to be humans after all
Which is, like, the whole point? Handing massive power to these people was a mistake to begin with and only led to disaster. Various perpetuals constantly express this world view. In fact, I think they added them just to explain the point to the media illiterate audience.
It is insinuated once that he planned it which always struck me as dumb. We already have an example of how the Emperor gets rid of people, specifically the Thunder Warriors.
First he simply stopped producing them and then when their numbers dwindled he had them massacred during their final battle. If you want to get rid of the Space Marines then having a massive galaxy wide war is just about the dumbest way to do it and out of line with how he did it in the past.
I guess there's a conflict there in like
>if he suddenly cut resources to the primarchs they would realise what he was doing
>some primarchs are appropriate for an era of peace, some are not
>he would probably accept any cost in lives to establish the era of peace given how much blood had already been shed
I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted Horus to stand against him but I wouldn't be surprised if he did ultimately plan to destroy primarchs like Russ, Angron, Mortarion, Khan, Curze etc.
Khan was of use in a peaceful Imperium to be a rapid reaction and response to any emerging threats, and to indulge the Emperor's desire to explore, roam, and adventure on the fringes as a protector. The two of them argued every time they met, and never agreed on anything, and yet the Emperor genuinely liked having those shouting matches with Jaghatai.
the important part is that they would be sidelined and not have a part in the galaxy he wanted to build.
that's probably why horus was his favorite and magnus and guilliman were the problem children. magnus and guilliman actually built prosperous advanced societies that rivaled or surpassed terra in their own ways. they weren't just warriors, which makes them much harder to dispose of.
i actually think the conversation between guilliman and the emperor is one of the best things of "nu40k", which overall I despise. Guilliman was seen as a failure, but as in individual, not just a primarch, he distinguished himself from his peers as being too much a lord to be tool he was supposed to be.
guilliman is like the opposite of sanguinus, who fully loved his father in a familial way. guilliman served his father like a duke, but always prioritized his lands and people not the imperium as a whole.
anyway that's enough primarch wank for me, next you will have me jerking off the khan for 3 posts.
This is why whatever your feelings on primaris and cawl it was fine and good to bring Gulliman back, actually.
I agree, you can cast accusations of marvel all day long but he's a good fit for many reasons in the 42k storyline.
Disagree. Primarchs should've stayed in 30k.
I think having the daemon primarchs as present as background characters in 40k was cool. Now they feel cheapened. The loyalists definitely shouldn't have returned.
> nu40k", which overall I despise.
Why?
its a massive escalation in selling out the 'vibe' of 40k for corpo profit. You really think the 40k story leads came up with primaris, and not the sales department? primaris and cawl was a clear decision to change the very nature of 40k and heavily sanitize it. just look at 9th and 10th edition marine art. every marine is a highly saturated color, with flat uninspired art and no shading or grime. Everything looks like the lego star wars of 40k.
The current 42k plot exists because they wanted to make marine players, the wealthiest and dumbest part of their player base, rebuy their entire army.
I'm not saying talented writers can't tell great stories in that environment or good products can't be made, but its the end of a long downhill road as things get worse, and worse, and worse. I'm not dooming, I love 40k and am here for the long haul. What I am saying is that 90% of primaris designs are fricking moronic and lack an understanding of the design elements that made people love 40k in the first place.
Making marines bUt wItHoUt aLl tHe dRaWbAcKs is just fricking stupid. The imperium is supposed to be a crumbling edifice of the failed dreams of humanity and its attempt to make a utopian society.
the texture of the imperium has changed, and the writers needed a character like gulliman to make everything SEEM hopeless through his eyes even though the imperium has more hope now than it has in thousands of years, has a better chance of reform and better human rights, and all the grimdark tech just got the 2.0 patch to not be so shitty.
Why use a dreadnought with a tortured corpse of an insane and mentally decaying legendary hero when u can just make a suit with an alive guy? why use the rhino, a land speeder, a manticore? those are ICKY but the new heroic scale!
Its corpo trash, and ironically a lot of the riskier cooler stuff that has an ounce of SOVL in it is the most hated, like Votann.
You haven't been paying attention have you? Just about all those changes have been walked back because people hate them so much . Expect primaris lore to be dropped entirely within the next 5 years.
I would like to believe you're correct. I hate primaris lore but i actually like the proportions of their models more. if only their designs weren't so ugly
They don't use primaris on any of their branding, there's no longer a distinction between "first born" and primaris in the rules when it comes to transports. The new terminator sculpts are primaris size and there is no change lore wise to how terminator armour works. They're slowly squatting primaris lore.
nta, but the primaris lore hasn't been squatted. It has just reached the point it was always going to reach: replacing the old style marines with mostly shallow differences.
This is fine, but I'd like it better if they actually advanced their setting. Give me Guilliman reforming the Imperium successfully, but some parts break away. Or Girlyman outright proclaims himself Emperor of Ultramar and Terra, while someone saves and moves Big E's corpse and its throne somewhere else.
I want the setting to go further. If you wanna appease grognards, then split it between Warhammer 40k and 42k officially.
Tl;dr Primaris are gay but all the Guilliman stuff is based.
That would be the most welcome retcon
>Expect primaris lore to be dropped entirely within the next 5 years.
Lmao. JUST TWO MORE WEEKS U GAIZ! T-TRUST THE PLAN! The only way GW is ever dropping primaris is if they find a way to make marinepiggies rebuy their army for a fourth time in less than a decade
>its a massive escalation in selling out the 'vibe' of 40k for corpo profit.
40k has always been "for corpo profit" since the start, you child. It's so tiresome to see this moronation being repeated again and again just because you were a kid and didn't know better, ffs.
Like, the only reason there are even space elfs and orcs in 40k is because they though weird aliens weren't going to sell well, so they made sci fi versions of fantasy slop. Or that GW streamlined the rules in 3rd ed. to make it easier for kids and sell armies with more minis.
GW HAS ALWAYS OPERATED IN THE SAME WAY YOU HIPSTER homosexualS
Any kino or soulful stuff has been a happy coincidence.
ur moronic. the amount of creative freedom a privately owned company can give its artists versus a shareholder owned one is night and day. tell me the year and edition GW stopped being a private company without looking it up.
You talk edgy twenty somethings shit, while I speak of facts. And it was in 1989-90 during the RT era.
>The imperium is supposed to be a crumbling edifice of the failed dreams of humanity and its attempt to make a utopian society.
>the imperium has more hope now than it has in thousands of years, has a better chance of reform and better human rights,
This is the type of thing that makes it pretty hard to take complaints seriously.
My guy, the galaxy is cut in two. The Imperium lost basically everything on one side of the rift. The state over there is basically said to be the Age of Strife all over again. Guilliman specifically says in the new edition trailer that the preachers loudly proclaim victory while the struggle is basically hopeless. Sure, he might want to reform things but can he and has he? No. Shit, even before they added all of this pretty much every rulebook since 4th edition has said that things are increasingly dire, the throne is failing, Abaddon is poised to frick them all up and a new wave of Tyranids is inbound., Guillimans wounds were supposedly slowly healing and so on.
It's the same shit it's always been only now it's got Primaris. I get, people don't like the way they were shoved in, I'm not a fan of it either. The broader setting though? Let's not lie to ourselves here, it's fine. Not only that, much of it has been foreshadowed for years.
yeah but primarchs coming back and bigE now confirmed to be alive and kicking and even winning in the warp... when before it was a real possibility hes truly dead and really just a corpse just as the chaos space marines said.
also cawl bringing technological progress back, possible powerful alliances with eldar, necrons etc. in the making, that have the potential to beat chaos and the tyranids.
in old 40k the trend was only down with little volatility, now in nu-40k the trend is still down but with high volatility and a real chance for a trend reversal. thats a huge difference.
remember the fall of cadia when for a brief moment the pylons were activated and the eye of terror began to shrink. the fricking eye of terror shrinking, potentially closing...chaos main base being wiped out. chaos actually panicking and having to drop a blackstone fortress in a desperate attempt to stop that. that was thought to be impossible before and now suddenly its something that is technically realistically possible and only necron infighting is preventing it from being done right now, and cawl has already copied the tech and is testing it. if that isnt change and source for "hope" then what is?
>the fricking eye of terror shrinking, potentially closing
"hope is the first step in the road to disappointment"
>when before it was a real possibility hes truly dead
That has never been true in the lore except for a year between RT and Realms of Chaos was released.
> cawl bringing technological progress back
never happened
> possible powerful alliances with eldar, necrons etc. in the making
never happened
Correct. Even the current guy in charge of FW, Andy Hoare, has written BL novels.
>> possible powerful alliances with eldar, necrons etc. in the making
>never happened
guilliman has eldar allies vs. chaos, the mechanicus is regularly meeting up with dark eldar to discuss golden throne issues, the silent king wants humans to survive because he wants them as biological hosts for the necrons and he is also a blood angels fan. thats a good baseline for negotiations.
>guilliman has eldar allies vs. chaos,
they have a non agression understanding with Eldrad, which is not the same
>the mechanicus is regularly meeting up with dark eldar to discuss golden throne issues
That was BEFORE the return of Guilliman and ended when an inquisitor discovered that those DEldar wanted to create a clone of the Emperor
>the silent king wants humans to survive because he wants them as biological hosts for the necrons
He already decided against it
>he is also a blood angels fan
Never happened. There's only that scene of him fooling Dante into doing his bidding.
>when before it was a real possibility hes truly dead and really just a corpse just as the chaos space marines said.
This was literally never a thing outside of the earliest days of Rogue Trader when 40k was still largely undefined. Even back in the 90s there was a series of books called Inquisition War where our boy Jaq Draco has an honest to god conversation with Emperor. This wasn't one of those, I can't even remember it, it was an intense experience. No, the Emperor straight up b***hes at him for a while about how he's got no choice but to be cruel.
>also cawl bringing technological progress back
Cawl is one guy and the stuff he's making is limited to marines. The Admech as a whole is still what it always was.
>possible powerful alliances with eldar, necrons etc. in the making,
Again, this was a thing. The Eldar were always regarded as potential but unreliable allies. They've always helped the Imperium when it suited them - see the Gothic War. The Necrons objective is also very clear - they want to dominate the galaxy and subordinate everyone to them. It's the same old "enemy of my enemy" thing that 40k has always had. Shit, the older Ork codicies even said that Blood Axes Orks like to hire themselves out as mercenaries to Imperials willing to supply them with arms.
>when before it was a real possibility hes truly dead and really just a corpse
How can someone invested in the lore possibly ever have thought the Emperor was actually dead? Pretty much every edition's core rulebook's fluff tries desperately to beat into your head that the Emperor still being alive is the only reason why warp travel is possible, and the possibility of him actually dying one of these days would be the final cataclysm that would actually thoroughly destroy the Imperium, if not humanity as a whole. The only thing left vague in the fluff descriptions was how cognizant he was about what was going on.
the astronomicon could just be the golden throne in autopilot mode powered by the 1000 psykers they sacrifice every day. there were/are similar warp beacons in the galaxy. no bigE needed for that.
and the fluff is written from the perspective of the imperium, so obviously they write the emperor is totally still alive and he talks to his custodes in dreams and shit, when in reality this may just be cope.
There is no way a measly thousand psykers a day could possibly power a beacon that the entire galaxy can see, not to mention keep the warp rift beneath the palace closed.
>There is no way a measly thousand psykers a day could possibly power a beacon that the entire galaxy can see
They aren't, the emperor is. The emperor is essentially absorbing their warp power and using it far more efficiently.
Yes, I know. I was talking about his headcanon where the Emperor is dead and the golden throne works on auto pilot.
Ah shit my bad. To play devils advocate, the golden throne itself could act like a warp refinery thats simply far more efficient than any other warp beacon in the galaxy.
That said, personally I've always thought it was obvious the Emperor was still alive.
The golden throne is a so called "pain engine" that allows the user to manipulate the warp and the webway. The Emperor has to sit on it to keep closed the warp rift that Magnus opened when he did "nothing wrong"
he is dead anon. its over. when guilliman entered the throne room he only saw a dry, desiccated corpse without any signs of life. no one spoke to him. the only thing he heard was the whirring of the golden throne. he then realized that what he was told, that the emperor is still alive and protecting the imperium, communicating in dreams and visions, was just a way to cope with the fact that he is dead. repression and denial that over centuries and millenia had become a dogma and a religion that helped the imperium to survive, helped the people to persevere in a doomed world. guilliman knew, if he told the people that his father is dead it would break the imperium. guilliman decided to play along and not tell anybody that the emperor is dead. when he left the throne room and was asked what happened he just said he knows all he needs to know. he has to save the imperium on his own.
the "thousand psykers a day" has nothing to do directly with the Astronomicon. The beacon is powered by trained linked astropaths singing in a choir until they burnt out and are replaced, but they aren't the psykers fed to the Golden throne to keep the Emperor alive.
The Astronomicon worked when Big E was away conquering stuff during the Great Crusade and it actually was down twice: once during the Siege of Terra and another time when the Great Rift opened. While it's true that the Emperor "guides it", it's powered indepently of him.
i dont know why people like you badly misunderstand Priestly.
The Emperor is alive. Priestly said its funny because very few people know that for certain because they arent permitted to enter his chamber and check
Yeah bro, in-universe Imperial propaganda is all about how their god is actually a barely-alive husk that could croak any day now. You fricking moron.
Nu idea.
That wasn't his reason though. Horus got pissed because Erebus showed him a vision of the future where he was forgotten and the Emperor was worshipped as a god. Erebus preyed on Horus' fear and ambition, and it worked so well that he still turned traitor even after Magnus showed Erebus to be full of shit. Horus has no excuse.
almost like all of 40k isnt just a parable that being a 600 iq superhuman ubermensch doesn't stop you from being a complete moron.
its actually a very human story across the span of it.
Exactly, which is why the Emperor was reluctant to seize control and wanted to put power back in the hands of mortals who could check and balance each other as soon as possible.
Which is something never brought up by his brainlet critics.
>the emperor planning to get rid of the primarchs and the marines who have lived, breathed, killed and done everything for him, just so that he would be the sole ruler
This is moronic and completely false. First off, he wouldn't have needed to get rid of the Astartes since they aren't unstable like Thunder Warriors. Just stop making them once the wars are done and have the remaining ones retire in whatever way works for them (administrators of Ultramarines, explorers for White Scars, researchers for Thousand Sons etc.) and die of old age. As for the Primarchs, not only do all of them have their true warp forms they would have unlocked (so absolutely moronic to make these uber powerful immortal demigods/nascent godlings just to wipe them out), each of them had a role to play after the great crusade. Magnus would have sat on the Golden Throne while being free to astraly explore the warp, Curze would have been the High Judge, Roboute obviously the administrator, Dorn and Perturabo the builders etc. He also never wanted to rule and was actively working on putting the power back into regular human hands as soon as everything was in place.
Didn't the Emperor always anticipate there would be something like the Horus Heresy?
I don't read HHslop so I couldn't tell you
That is the plan of the dark king who is the emperor of the future trying to manipulate the emperor of the past in order to conceive his own birth, he is playing chess 11d
>dark king: with this card I eliminate your cards on the field, the cards in your hand, your deck and... uh... Nurgle's deck.
>*Nurgle's garden catches fire again*
>*Nurgle's garden catches fire again*
LOL
He is stated to have suspected that he would have to deal with a rebellion, but nothing on the scale of the Heresy, more likely 1-2 Legions going bad much like how the 2nd and 11th had fricked up.
By all indications, the Emperor's actual expectation was that Guilliman would rebel and decide to build his own empire, and pretty much every single Primarch who ever met Guilliman thought the same thing. It's part of why the Emperor never really trusted Rowboat like the others, and was colder toward him than he was his favourite sons.
Except Ultra Chad Gulliman. Ultramarines best legion confirmed.
actually guilliman was one of the emperors least favorite. he hated guilliman, probably because guilliman was a somewhat well adjusted free thinker and not really manipulated.
his favorite sons were all the most blindingly loyal like sanguinus, dorn, and horus.
the emperor makes a lot more sense when you realize he was literally just an insanely powerful psyker. he couldn't cast any spell or do anything, he had very specific abilities:
>Genius level scientist, able to personally learn from the greatest genesmiths of earth and then improve on their work in just a few generations
>psychic glamour, will always appear to be the most trustworthy and attractive he possibly can to any human who sees him
He needed a power up from the chaos gods to even become as powerful as he was towards the end of the great crusade. he walked the same path as horus, but stole their power instead of surrendering to them. then he did his best with his limited understanding of chaos to fight them. hes lived so long he can't see humans in the same light as a mortal. he can't value them as individuals anymore, unless they immortals like him. that's why his closest friends where constantin and malcador, also deeply mentally unwell immortal weirdos who mean well by are still HUMAN and the FALLIBLE.
The emperor straight up did not correctly judge the character of every single one of his primarchs correctly. Every one was mishandled, and like an autist who physically cannot conceptualize that other people don't have the same knowledge as him, just assumed the majority of them would follow him "because it's only logical".
in my head canon that techno barbarian warlord in birth of the imperium actually said the truth to valdor. that bigE is actually not human at all but a weapon from the dark age of technology that went rogue. he is probably an AI that can manipulate the warp. so when the mechanicus says hes an avatar of the machine god, thats probably closer to the truth than what the imperium thinks he is.
>he couldn't cast any spell or do anything, he had very specific abilities
>He needed a power up from the chaos gods to even become as powerful as he was towards the end of the great crusade
This is plainly untrue even going by the shitty nu-lore. The Emperor stole parts of the warp to make primarch souls, he himself can just freely use warp juice with no drawbacks, except if he goes overboard he turns into the Dark King or some shit. He beat Void Dragon in the middle ages, way before he stole the warp stuff.
>stole
If he can freely use it, it isn't stealing. It's his to use as he sees fit.
You're right, the four troon ''gods'' call it stealing even though they stood on the sidelines and watched like little b***hes while chad Emperor swung his dick around, then made an alliance despite the meme great game bullshit and used the most craven, subversive ploys they could do bring him down. And still failed.
The emperor clearly pulled shaninigans (the details of which are unknown) to reach his current power. Horus is directly shown to follow the same path as the emperor to become the champion of chaos. He got a power up from the great 4 at some point, possibly before the unification wars.
They start explaining that here and develop it in two other books. Also this is one of the less shitty BL books I've read, take that for what you will.
I'm pretty sure that GW has out and out said the shaman origin backstory is not true, some people theorize he's a DAOT super weapon who gained human form, I think to Dune. One noble person with the highest level of prescience in the galaxy takes the steps he thinks will ultimately save the entire human species. Paul Atreides unleashes war and genocide on a scale never seen in his world because he saw that on the other side of it was salvation. That theme seems very alive in 40k today.
Its pointless to speculate on how old the emperor is and when he became so powerful, but he definitely changed and became stronger at some point, this is hard fact in the story.
>Horus is directly shown to follow the same path as the emperor to become the champion of chaos
Horus was directly empowered by the chaos gods while the Emperor, who actively opposed them, was able to power himself up with the warp despite them. They're completely opposite. His trip to the warp might be where he learned how to do so, but again, he beat fricking Void Dragon tens of thousands of years earlier. Unless they retcon that too, because rather then streamline the story and maybe add a few bits the little b***hes calling themselves writers completely turned the entire story on its head to cope with their daddy issues.
We don't know the details of the his conflict (if it can even be called that) with the Void Dragon. Perhaps it's enslaved using Necron technology as we know they can cage C'tan. Perhaps it's dormant or powerless for some reason. Perhaps it was pressured somehow to ally with the Emperor. We have none of the details so saying he 'beat fricking Void Dragon tens of thousands of years earlier' is speculation at best and shows your extreme bias to this interpretation.
Show me a line that in any codex, book, community article... ANYTHING... that explicitly says that the Emperor beat whatever hides inside of mars, or even that it is for sure the Void Dragon or a significant part of it. The Necron have shards of the Void Dragon elsewhere, so it's at least not the complete form.
>shows your extreme bias to this interpretation
You're right, I am extremely biased. The Emperor used to be this supreme gigachad protector of humanity who was so powerful he was only brought down by his love for his son which made the setting incredibly tragic. Then every failed writer who couldn't make it anywhere else used 40k as their personal therapy session/failed springboard attempt and made him stupider and less powerful as time went on, also making the story worse and more nonsensical because they were warping it's very foundations.
>The Necron have shards of the Void Dragon elsewhere
Another moronic newcron retcon where they nerfed the C'tan who were a foil to Chaos as fell as the Emperor and the Eldar by proxy. All coming together in the mother of all moronic retcons where apparently the War in Heaven was paused to fight against Chaos.
You need to read Mechanicum and shut the frick up
NTA, but you take everything in that book at face value? The guardian dude even says he's not the first and just got his knowledge and duties second hand.
>some people theorize he's a DAOT super weapon who gained human form
That theory started in Black Library and ended there when multiple characters of age with him confirmed it is bullshit, he is that old and yes he is from 8000 BC or thereabouts, and yes he was an aberration of unfathomable power formed with psyker energies even then.
personally, i doing think it matters really. everyone probably has their favorite interpretation of the lore, that's by design. fortunately the questions will likely never be answered and it will always be a mystery.
What really gets me is that Malcador could have immediately said when Horus, the Khan, and Alpharius barged in that it was the Emperor's order, but he ego-tripped over something the Primarchs were justifiably angry about. He further had a throne made with two skulls embedded in the armrest, with the markings 2nd and 11th on it. Frankly, I do not fricking like Malcador. He's a sniveling worm who sat in a hole for thousands of years while humanity burned, and only left it after the greatest man appeared. Frick him. Malcador chastised Horus because he hated transhumans, saying they have no right to rule humanity. Meanwhile, the same immortal man when the call to lead humanity was given, he did not answer. Horus was 100% correct in that moment.
Why would anyone be mad that the piece of shit stayed being a piece of shit himself instead of becoming tyrant #13525346 on earth I don’t get this post
>We have reached a point where there are ''people'' who not only hate The Emperor but also MALCADOR
Just burn it all down.
Only
>The most important part. The Emperor wanted baseline humans to rule the Imperium. Not Primarchs, not Marines humans.
Is correct
His other reason were:
>WAAAAH I DON'T HAVE A STATUE ON A FUTURE NIGHTMARE PLANET
>WAAAAH I'M NOT ACTUALLY THE EMPEROR'S SON, I'M A CLONE.
>WAAAAAAH A COMPLETELY UNTRUSTWORTHY MAN WHO MY BROTHER PROVED IS LYING TO ME SAID DADDY WANTS TO BECOME A GOD, EVEN THOUGH ALL THE EVIDENCE OF HIS GOVERNMENT CONVEYS THE OPPOSITE
>WAAAAAAAH HORUS KILL DADDY
>The Emperor abandoned the Great Crusade and didn't tell him why
Yes he fricking well did.
He said he was returning to Terra to work on setting up the administration of the Imperium because it was falling behind (it was, and the Emperor was spending time setting that up to get ready for the Crusade to end and the Imperium, and humanity, to be unified). He also said he needed to spend time in the Imperial Dungeon to work on more projects and tech advances (he did, because of the Mars Treaty), and Horus even fricking knew that the Emperor was working on Warpshit tech because he knew all about the anti-Warp defences the Emperor had built on Terra and upgraded right when he returned there after Ullanor.
The "daddy didn't tell me" excuse is and always was bullshit.
Repressed homosexuality.
Ask the general.
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exploring the HH was a mistake, maybe it could have been handled well if GW hired writers with talent, but that ship has sailed, only upside is GW will likely trash all their HH stuff and retcon it all in 10 or 20 years
>10-20 years
40k ET will be in ~5.
ET?
End Times
The HH became a setting 20 years ago with the TCG and Visions of Heresy.
It's time to let it go. Your pre-HH 40k is not coming back just like your hair and your erections.
Pre heresy is not coming back idiot, I said it will be retconned, prepare for women primarchs, black and brown ones ones, trannies and all sorts of other stuff, and by that point you will be a grog and told not to complain about the changes cos it's better like you now tell current grogs, enjoy
>GW is gonna make 40k WOKE anyday now
Why do anons still post this garbage.
It's already happening, isn't there a woman now who created the primarchs? lmao you tards won't realize until it's too late and it's hilarious watching it happen
>He's mad that the summery of a book he didn't read said that a woman existed in it
>Man requires woman to make his children
>NOOO THIS IS HECKIN WOKEY TROON POO SLOP THEY'RE TURNING THE SPACE FROGS GAY
homosexual. Say it out loud to yourself so it might sink in quicker.
primarch shit is moronic, but implying you need a frickin woman to make test tube giga homies in the year 30,000 is double moronic.
Yeah and she got btfo'd by Erebus.
could you imagine. She must have killed herself in shame
oh no! a woman! https://youtu.be/XhbhNLgwyE4?si=32TYITWK813RBV66
Yeah, and the primarchs got scattered not because of the machinations of Chaos, but because this chick had a woman moment and scattered them herself
>delusional /misc/troon making up fantasies to be mad about
Go back
It was a setting for Wargames in the 80's and 90's with the release of Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine, and the Siege of Terra chit wargame. It was just threadbare as a setting back then beyond just the obvious Paradise Lost references.
kinda wish GW would make those again I know other companies make Chit games but endless chit wargames based on WWII got tiresome after a while
I think the index astartes articles were the perfect balance between fleshing out the HH, while keeping it a long gone era with plenty of mystery.
The forge world horus heresy black books are great, the black library series is a very mixed bag but I enjoyed the first 5 books a lot.
>maybe it could have been handled well if GW hired writers with talent
The BL series is written largely by the same people who wrote for the studio side of things. Check the names on the Forge World books and the old Index Astartes supplements and compare them to BL. It's just that writing a novel series is a lot harder than writing a few dozen pages outlining just the broad strokes.
Ego. Unlike many of his brothers, he couldn't accept being ultimately a tool to help humanity and reach a point where he no longer was necessary.
It's not deep, just your garden variety Lucifer and Paradise Lost reference and it's all explained in the False Gods novel. But fans cannot seem to grok it despite how clear it's explained.
Bald
No maidens.
He's fighting for the good guys, and unfortunately they'll never let the good guys win in this setting.
>Chaos are the good guys! Except for the demons raping your soul for eternity, just ignore that bit.
Perhaps the most moronic take in 40k.
I dunno, ask /hhg/
Ending up with the incompetent brothers mostly.
His armor is too big for his body.
Pride.
His dad was a prick.
Constant arthritis pain from his fricked up knees because everywhere he walks is covered in bones
squat plug fell out
He sealed himself into his armor, then realized his sock was bunched up under his little toe. Been downhill since.
I find it funny how the idea of "Emperor&co stepping back and letting normal humies rule" is completely preposterous as no matter how much morons here will procalim him pure good, those who achieve great power, seldom would surrender it.
bad writing
Daddy issues.
is that a mountain of dead Salamanders hes standing on?
uhhh based.
He was fine until the Word Bearers killed and ressurected him in a chaos ritual.
>Turns out, little monkey in his brain
Not having an actual personality.
For real, even though the series is literally named after him, he's the most banal out of all the primarchs, and it doesn't help that Abnett and McNeill wrote him like he's a second rate politician
This. He's basically nobody's favorite primarch and everyone would rather write Curze of Sanguinius or Magnus or whoever. Very ironically, the series turned Perturabo into a star while burying Horus, the opposite of their in-story status,
His dad named him Horus Heresy, what the frick do you expect to have happen
the wolf cloak was too hot for his giant shoulders but he couldn't admit it so he had to wear it for hundreds of years and he just snapped
Dan Abnett
Weak minded for supposey the perfect primarch
>the perfect primarch
wrong