>Pay4Power spreadsheet MMOs are better because they just are okay!
Can't wait to read about the next paypiggie space battle where 10 million dollars of digital spaceships were exploded and repurchased
Damage output from bosses should be roughly the same as potential healer throughput, and healers should have to properly manage cooldowns and mana/mp beyond doing a rotation. Healers shouldn't be able to keep everyone at 100% health all fight unless they are extremely overgeared, although I get that FFXIV fight cadence doesn't allow this style of healing. Don't know how to fix the tank role though.
Was never a good system in the first place. It turns all combat into being about how to make number go up and down the best, as says, but there should be more to combat than that.
Was never a good system in the first place. It turns all combat into being about how to make number go up and down the best, as says, but there should be more to combat than that.
Pussy ass devs being too scared to have bosses and mobs be threatening enough to force people to specialise in their job so you have all three classes just prioritising DPS. A tank should stack defense and maintain aggro. A healer should be healing. Only the DPS should be DPSing.
>"tanking" devolved to "do the bare minimum to hold aggro and survive the tankbuster/swap to reset autism stacks" >"healing" devolved to "keep hp above 1 and dps" >"dps" was made easier and easier because putting a clock on the fight and expecting morons to press their buttons was apparently too much to hope for
dps takes no skill though, you literally just press buttons in a pre-decided rotation and don't have to react to anything except maybe muh procs
healer and tank have to actually watch what the boss is doing and change their gameplan depending
>hohoho you actual player of the game think my welfare roles that only exist because of game design aren’t necessary, but what if I just.. DONT DO THEM?
lol it’s okay that you have no skill and want to play too but don’t get uppity about it
after playing a healer myself in hardcore wow, you really notice the difference between a good tank and a bad one >have to heal one target vs the entire party >get interrupted and cc'd all the time >don't get to drink >no marks mean that my cc gets broken all the time >no demo shout or demo roar >if I ever mispress a hot, I'm having the whole next pull beeline to me
Bigger issue is most modern mmos dont even expect "support" roles to do anything besides "cleanse x debuff" or apply buffs off cooldown. Designing encounters around CCing a boss or kiting is like the biggest taboo for some reason.
I had fun with overwatch and am sick of pretending I didn't.
The real problem was going past healer tank damage dealer and adding the forbidden fourth role from MMOs past. Crowd control. It has no place in a PvP MMO or FPS.
The wheel has never been obsolete ever because it's perfect.
The trinity will never be obsolete ever because it's perfect. As long as HP is a core mechanic in an mmo, the trinity will be the true overall meta.
>As long as HP is a core mechanic in an mmo
HP being core is what makes healers relevant
but for tanks to exist you need aggro to be a core mechanic too
i.e. an easymode system where dps don't actually get attacked so they can minmax on damage only and not tankiness or dodging
It's a perfectly fine system if done well (it never is). It's just easy to half ass. But rather then a rock solid triangle, it should be two ebbing and flowing balances of >frontline vs backline >offense vs defense vs support
Dynamic ATB could have become more complicated. Every attack animation has a rythem, so if you get hid mid animation you stagger as DPS due to the counter hit. Tanks should have focus and counter button that needs timing. Meanwhile healing should include protection spells, healing and even magic casters in a rythem to the bgm. Dancers /Bards can change the bgm thus bonus effects. Enemy has weak points to be targeted with strong attacks before normal DPS works. Thus DPS repositions eithout tank leaving them vulnerable if staggered.
I honestly think the formula could have cjanged just everyone is too fricking lazy to code.
It is but women love rythem games. It's just a matter of making mechanics they would be cool with. But like others have been saying simulating positioning in the formula is important, frontline, backline, flanking. Before thr enemy unleashes a big attacj doesn't it make sense for DPS to retreat behind the wall or cover in the environment.
Dofus is an MMO where the trinity doesn't really apply. The best classes are the best not because they deal the most damage, or heal or tank the best, but because they can position.
lazy encounter design. lack of creativity. >dps is boring shit class compared to tank and healer >rigid team composition makes assembling a team too annoying
The uniform win condition of depleting the enemies hp before they deplete yours forces people into these roles by default. Varying rulesets and win conditions can lead to more diversification of roles, like in sports. Its why MOBAs don't have the trinity but MMOs do.
MOBAs don't have the trinity because they're fricking PvP games and a "tank" makes no sense because players can just target and engage whoever they choose, unlike an AI who is designed to be cheesed with "aggro" or an AI who can be controlled through actual strategy
Top down strategy already have the disengage mechanic, it should honestly be a thing for tanks. So if the enemies weak but fast creatures outnumber you and hit the rear line you suffer for it / dps needs to fall back or make use of archers kiting.
>it should honestly be a thing for tanks
For starters, tanks shouldn't be able to run sideways. If they want to run to the backline because enemies got through, they'll have to turn their back to the enemies currently engaged with them.
A DPS that makes the other members do more damage. AKA a women roll to press 1 or 2 buttons and hope everyone else will carry them as their contributation to the team is entirely reliant on everyone else playing the game.
>Debuffer has no direct damage attacks >Apply fragile to boss: he now takes 20% more damage! >Your five DPS members now do the same combined damage as bringing 6 DPS players
B-but it works great when there's more players! >Every MMO under the sun enforces strict team sizes for raid encounters
Bringing a debuff bot roll is the same as just having another DPS unless your game is shit and janked their numbers because it's the easy women role to leech off better players performance by "buffing the team!" 🙂
Debuff in Etrian Odyssey is super strong. The enemy hits like a truck until you are geared half way through a stratum for it. Spells like Blind, Bind Arm / Leg, should be more respected. Sleep is strong in WRPG there just needs to be value of using the environment for impairment, etc
To add Labyrinth of Refrain does it well with critical hits that 'gore' certain body parts that drop your overall health and ability to use your primary weapon.
Spells by extension should have this effect. Poison can be managed but in combat it flares up and kills off a certain body part, maybe even spreading. Blind effects head. Elemental spells always have residual effects if you don't have proper gear protection. It's important to make item and gear economy more valuable in a video game.
Guild Wars 2 was the biggest frick up in the mmo scene due to this. Boons and conditions had potential but they dummed it all down for equalised damage. You cant even get significant gear to change the grind due to level scaling. Every asian mmo mogged it in the reward factor, but at least they filled it with theme park distractions.
morons thinking that big numbers means the biggest contribution to the party. I still laugh my ass off every time people complains about the healer not doing enough damage.
Sadly none because they don't give the enemy smart enough AI to refocus the fight on a person who fricked up to kill them off faster. If battle was more skill based and the enemy sussed out the weakest link you would have more need for healers / changing formation. Imagine a tank holding aggro but they all in their special attacks on the one chump out of position. Most Games don't recreate it but they should. It should be instant aggro switch and hard special attack due to enemy strategist observing.
in Dofus the AI naturally aims for the weakest and least tankiest ally, if they can't they hit the next best thing
meaning "tanking" in Dofus actually requires strategy to hold an enemy (or several enemies) in place
I find some games work out this battle pace out of luck. There should always be smart heavy hitter enemies that can 1 v 1 the attention of players then the mindless grunts that need your attention. Generally those mobs get wiped out by a tank call and mogged by Aoe but it honestly shouldn't be that way. Maybe the enemy could counter shout so the drones don't act like brainless twits then the fights get messy and interesting.
In modern MMOs yeah it's the only thing that matters. Do damage, avoid AoE, don't die. Everyone shares all of these. You can't say you popped off and got an important pick or saved the team by doing a high skill play when the games don't even give you the opportunities to do these things.
Make it so enemies use status effects out the wazoo, and give the ability to the different classes to manage different status effects and also give them out. So no one class is 'just the dps', 'just the healer', make people think again.
Couldn't agree more. All mmos use outdated as frick mechanics I think they forgot you are suppose to spice up the formula to make game play their own unique thing.
The only thing Guild Wars 2 did good is the environment and the traversing of it. Everything else is beyond fricking bad. Shit lore, story, equipment, even battle despite it being dynamic. Fricking Tera is more fun that GW2 battle system positioning game and its ancient.
The only thing Guild Wars 2 did good is the environment and the traversing of it. Everything else is beyond fricking bad. Shit lore, story, equipment, even battle despite it being dynamic. Fricking Tera is more fun that GW2 battle system positioning game and its ancient.
Yeah. I can agree with this, jump puzzles are the best part of the game. Something about arenanet environments from GW1 and 2 are god damn amazing, they made some of the best looking areas I've ever seen that makes you want more. But all of 2 outside it is straight up ass.
Healing fricking sucks. Nobody wants to do it. It's the epitome of "nobody notices when you do well, everyone notices when you frick up." You're also last in line for cool upgrades because you don't technically "need" them and funneling gear to the damage dealers means the fight is shorter means healing saved. And for the same reason you're the first person benched on a fight so we can bring in more DPS.
Fights should leave characters with ailing afflictions unless they Rest. Using an antidote for example shouldn't cure it straight away, but a healer is able to remove all the impurities between fights. This way people have to manage their battle condition and make healers more valuable.
Chill for example whenever you get hit by a frost spell eventually turns into frostbite crippling your arm / leg / even worst. If you suffer chill lightning attacks hit even harder.
I just want to see a system of where unskilled DPS gets hit they get conditions, and if they frick it up they get severely punished like in a fighting game / outplayed by strategy.
No, it's a terrible system
A lot of content will often never require healers or tanks, and for some content featuring invulnerable bosses, damage is effectively gated. The idea of a "trinity" is flawed and idealizes this moronic situation where people are just standing still casting abilities while doing they "jobs", with no initiative and strategy - because the trinity is the strategy.
It never made sense to me Tanks pay a frick load on repair but leather armored players don't share anything remotely similar as a mechanic. Monster Hunter simulates it well on how you would wear a full outfit to a zone, I don't see why this shouldn't be copied in a similar way to get maximum protection against the local threats.
The notion that being able to do one excludes the ability to perform others. Hybrid taxes are only practical on paper because fulfilling 2 roles at once is impossible in practice, rather a player of a hybrid must adapt to one role or another as the situation demands it. Take vanilla wow for example; mt dies, suddenly dps warrior throws on a shield and takes tanks place. They are capable of both tanking and damage, but cannot do both at once. When the token retadin needs to start spot healing, they are no longer damaging, and when they go back to damage, they are no longer healing.
Therefor, there is zero reason for dedicated class roles to exist outside of turn-based scenarios. Classes should only be defined by what abilities thematically fit them within lore surrounding them.
>Anons in the threads crying about having to choose between 3 roles (sometimes 4 or 5) because its restrictive
You poor things https://www.soccercoachingpro.com/soccer-positions/
Nothing. The genre was simply prefected with Final Fantasy XIV and showed the flaws that other MMOs had with the system.
>The genre was simply prefected with Final Fantasy XIV
yeah perfect boredom lmao
rollercoaster trannies are mentally ill
ultima eve albion are the only true mmos
>Pay4Power spreadsheet MMOs are better because they just are okay!
Can't wait to read about the next paypiggie space battle where 10 million dollars of digital spaceships were exploded and repurchased
>perfected with Final Fantasy XIV
Red DPS, Blue DPS and Green DPS?
Unironcially yes?
No one with at least half a brain wants to stand there doing nothing but press HEAL and BIG HEAL with the occasional AOE HEAL
Damage output from bosses should be roughly the same as potential healer throughput, and healers should have to properly manage cooldowns and mana/mp beyond doing a rotation. Healers shouldn't be able to keep everyone at 100% health all fight unless they are extremely overgeared, although I get that FFXIV fight cadence doesn't allow this style of healing. Don't know how to fix the tank role though.
This assumes that combat is simply reducing the enemy's health before they can reduce yours.
It's boring.
Was never a good system in the first place. It turns all combat into being about how to make number go up and down the best, as says, but there should be more to combat than that.
Pseuds
why not? does it work well with pvp mmos. are mmos only about the act of killing things and nothing else
Literally what else are they about? The gay cyber sex you are having with the night elf Druid?
Pussy ass devs being too scared to have bosses and mobs be threatening enough to force people to specialise in their job so you have all three classes just prioritising DPS. A tank should stack defense and maintain aggro. A healer should be healing. Only the DPS should be DPSing.
That's fricking stupid and you know it
please give me a brave dev who will make every fight the exact same thing
>"tanking" devolved to "do the bare minimum to hold aggro and survive the tankbuster/swap to reset autism stacks"
>"healing" devolved to "keep hp above 1 and dps"
>"dps" was made easier and easier because putting a clock on the fight and expecting morons to press their buttons was apparently too much to hope for
I lost any respect for tanks after I realised a "tank heavy fight" was just stack swapping and a tank buster use cooldowns here move on the same boss.
It was overtaken by:
Speed is superior aggro man
Forever proc crit & double attack b***h
Buffbawd
It forced MMO design to revolve around adding and subtracting numbers in front of an enemy instead of sharing an adventure with other people.
MMO players ww@
>HEAL HEAL HEAL HEAL HEAL
>TAUNT TAUNT TAUNT TAUNT TAUNT
DPS is the only role that takes any actual skill.
Unironically wish we went back to this instead of STACK SPREAD AVOID THE DDR CIRCLES autism
dps takes no skill though, you literally just press buttons in a pre-decided rotation and don't have to react to anything except maybe muh procs
healer and tank have to actually watch what the boss is doing and change their gameplan depending
>Transfers aggro to you and instructs healer not to heal you
It's all yours my friend 🙂
>hohoho you actual player of the game think my welfare roles that only exist because of game design aren’t necessary, but what if I just.. DONT DO THEM?
lol it’s okay that you have no skill and want to play too but don’t get uppity about it
after playing a healer myself in hardcore wow, you really notice the difference between a good tank and a bad one
>have to heal one target vs the entire party
>get interrupted and cc'd all the time
>don't get to drink
>no marks mean that my cc gets broken all the time
>no demo shout or demo roar
>if I ever mispress a hot, I'm having the whole next pull beeline to me
>remove support classes
>give all those buffs, debuffs, ccs to the other 3
>tank
>healer
you mean support
In Dofus positioning is king.
Positioners>Damage Dealers>Healers>Debuffers/Etc/Stuff
perfection
Nothing. GW2's shit-show launch proved that they were needed or you just run around like chickens with your heads cut off
There should only be dps tbh, support roles are welfare roles for bads
DPS is a welfare role too since it's propped up by supports to exist and an individual bad dps isn't noticeable
Bigger issue is most modern mmos dont even expect "support" roles to do anything besides "cleanse x debuff" or apply buffs off cooldown. Designing encounters around CCing a boss or kiting is like the biggest taboo for some reason.
There's nothing wrong with the trinity, except that it is chiefly found in MMOs.
but it's complete dogshit in games with combat more complex than "tab-target"
I had fun with overwatch and am sick of pretending I didn't.
The real problem was going past healer tank damage dealer and adding the forbidden fourth role from MMOs past. Crowd control. It has no place in a PvP MMO or FPS.
brigette is my wife
The wheel has never been obsolete ever because it's perfect.
The trinity will never be obsolete ever because it's perfect. As long as HP is a core mechanic in an mmo, the trinity will be the true overall meta.
>As long as HP is a core mechanic in an mmo
HP being core is what makes healers relevant
but for tanks to exist you need aggro to be a core mechanic too
i.e. an easymode system where dps don't actually get attacked so they can minmax on damage only and not tankiness or dodging
>Healer
Hey blud didn't you hear, its called "support" now
It's a perfectly fine system if done well (it never is). It's just easy to half ass. But rather then a rock solid triangle, it should be two ebbing and flowing balances of
>frontline vs backline
>offense vs defense vs support
Dynamic ATB could have become more complicated. Every attack animation has a rythem, so if you get hid mid animation you stagger as DPS due to the counter hit. Tanks should have focus and counter button that needs timing. Meanwhile healing should include protection spells, healing and even magic casters in a rythem to the bgm. Dancers /Bards can change the bgm thus bonus effects. Enemy has weak points to be targeted with strong attacks before normal DPS works. Thus DPS repositions eithout tank leaving them vulnerable if staggered.
I honestly think the formula could have cjanged just everyone is too fricking lazy to code.
That sounds moronic. I'm glad you have no talent.
It is but women love rythem games. It's just a matter of making mechanics they would be cool with. But like others have been saying simulating positioning in the formula is important, frontline, backline, flanking. Before thr enemy unleashes a big attacj doesn't it make sense for DPS to retreat behind the wall or cover in the environment.
Dofus is an MMO where the trinity doesn't really apply. The best classes are the best not because they deal the most damage, or heal or tank the best, but because they can position.
lazy encounter design. lack of creativity.
>dps is boring shit class compared to tank and healer
>rigid team composition makes assembling a team too annoying
>>dps is boring shit class compared to tank and healer
This is what shitters who can’t into meters actually think
The uniform win condition of depleting the enemies hp before they deplete yours forces people into these roles by default. Varying rulesets and win conditions can lead to more diversification of roles, like in sports. Its why MOBAs don't have the trinity but MMOs do.
MOBAs don't have the trinity because they're fricking PvP games and a "tank" makes no sense because players can just target and engage whoever they choose, unlike an AI who is designed to be cheesed with "aggro" or an AI who can be controlled through actual strategy
Top down strategy already have the disengage mechanic, it should honestly be a thing for tanks. So if the enemies weak but fast creatures outnumber you and hit the rear line you suffer for it / dps needs to fall back or make use of archers kiting.
>it should honestly be a thing for tanks
For starters, tanks shouldn't be able to run sideways. If they want to run to the backline because enemies got through, they'll have to turn their back to the enemies currently engaged with them.
Nothing, no one's been capable of ever developing a new class that doesn't fit this 3 specs.
What is a debuffer?
A DPS that makes the other members do more damage. AKA a women roll to press 1 or 2 buttons and hope everyone else will carry them as their contributation to the team is entirely reliant on everyone else playing the game.
moron
>Debuffer has no direct damage attacks
>Apply fragile to boss: he now takes 20% more damage!
>Your five DPS members now do the same combined damage as bringing 6 DPS players
B-but it works great when there's more players!
>Every MMO under the sun enforces strict team sizes for raid encounters
Bringing a debuff bot roll is the same as just having another DPS unless your game is shit and janked their numbers because it's the easy women role to leech off better players performance by "buffing the team!" 🙂
>Debuffer has no direct damage attacks
Wrong. All classes have damage attacks.
Debuffs can do more besides "amp damage", moron.
>Debuff class
>It's actually just a bad DPS with a 3% damage buff for the party
lol
lmao
Debuff in Etrian Odyssey is super strong. The enemy hits like a truck until you are geared half way through a stratum for it. Spells like Blind, Bind Arm / Leg, should be more respected. Sleep is strong in WRPG there just needs to be value of using the environment for impairment, etc
To add Labyrinth of Refrain does it well with critical hits that 'gore' certain body parts that drop your overall health and ability to use your primary weapon.
Spells by extension should have this effect. Poison can be managed but in combat it flares up and kills off a certain body part, maybe even spreading. Blind effects head. Elemental spells always have residual effects if you don't have proper gear protection. It's important to make item and gear economy more valuable in a video game.
Mez/Crowd control, Buffers, Debuffers and all the other roles that existed before WoW
they didn't do pic related.
Guild Wars 2 was the biggest frick up in the mmo scene due to this. Boons and conditions had potential but they dummed it all down for equalised damage. You cant even get significant gear to change the grind due to level scaling. Every asian mmo mogged it in the reward factor, but at least they filled it with theme park distractions.
morons thinking that big numbers means the biggest contribution to the party. I still laugh my ass off every time people complains about the healer not doing enough damage.
is there a single game where the healer is a complicated class that requires you to actually focus and be good?
The old combat system of Tera. You needed to circle your skills correctly to give buffs to the party and also focus on what the boss is doing.
Sadly none because they don't give the enemy smart enough AI to refocus the fight on a person who fricked up to kill them off faster. If battle was more skill based and the enemy sussed out the weakest link you would have more need for healers / changing formation. Imagine a tank holding aggro but they all in their special attacks on the one chump out of position. Most Games don't recreate it but they should. It should be instant aggro switch and hard special attack due to enemy strategist observing.
in Dofus the AI naturally aims for the weakest and least tankiest ally, if they can't they hit the next best thing
meaning "tanking" in Dofus actually requires strategy to hold an enemy (or several enemies) in place
I find some games work out this battle pace out of luck. There should always be smart heavy hitter enemies that can 1 v 1 the attention of players then the mindless grunts that need your attention. Generally those mobs get wiped out by a tank call and mogged by Aoe but it honestly shouldn't be that way. Maybe the enemy could counter shout so the drones don't act like brainless twits then the fights get messy and interesting.
In modern MMOs yeah it's the only thing that matters. Do damage, avoid AoE, don't die. Everyone shares all of these. You can't say you popped off and got an important pick or saved the team by doing a high skill play when the games don't even give you the opportunities to do these things.
>What went wrong?
The root problem is declining players over time
Holy Trinity -> Duet -> All in one job
Make it so enemies use status effects out the wazoo, and give the ability to the different classes to manage different status effects and also give them out. So no one class is 'just the dps', 'just the healer', make people think again.
Dofus does that
If an MMO has an "aggro" meter, it's automatically shit.
Couldn't agree more. All mmos use outdated as frick mechanics I think they forgot you are suppose to spice up the formula to make game play their own unique thing.
IS CITY OF HEROES ANY GOOD I JUST GOT REMINDED THERE'S PRIVATE SERVERS FOR THAT SHIT
Guild Wars 2 is the only good mmo
you wish
Cope
Imagine thinking Guild Wars 2 PvP is good. Delusional and a fricking shame considering what it once was.
The only thing Guild Wars 2 did good is the environment and the traversing of it. Everything else is beyond fricking bad. Shit lore, story, equipment, even battle despite it being dynamic. Fricking Tera is more fun that GW2 battle system positioning game and its ancient.
Yeah. I can agree with this, jump puzzles are the best part of the game. Something about arenanet environments from GW1 and 2 are god damn amazing, they made some of the best looking areas I've ever seen that makes you want more. But all of 2 outside it is straight up ass.
AHAHAAHHAHA
reduction of the value of cc/utility buffs like healer giving haste and dps being able to interrupt stuff
Healing fricking sucks. Nobody wants to do it. It's the epitome of "nobody notices when you do well, everyone notices when you frick up." You're also last in line for cool upgrades because you don't technically "need" them and funneling gear to the damage dealers means the fight is shorter means healing saved. And for the same reason you're the first person benched on a fight so we can bring in more DPS.
Fights should leave characters with ailing afflictions unless they Rest. Using an antidote for example shouldn't cure it straight away, but a healer is able to remove all the impurities between fights. This way people have to manage their battle condition and make healers more valuable.
Chill for example whenever you get hit by a frost spell eventually turns into frostbite crippling your arm / leg / even worst. If you suffer chill lightning attacks hit even harder.
I just want to see a system of where unskilled DPS gets hit they get conditions, and if they frick it up they get severely punished like in a fighting game / outplayed by strategy.
Looks pretty balanced to me
I feel these could get updated now
nothing. its a perfect system.
No, it's a terrible system
A lot of content will often never require healers or tanks, and for some content featuring invulnerable bosses, damage is effectively gated. The idea of a "trinity" is flawed and idealizes this moronic situation where people are just standing still casting abilities while doing they "jobs", with no initiative and strategy - because the trinity is the strategy.
It never made sense to me Tanks pay a frick load on repair but leather armored players don't share anything remotely similar as a mechanic. Monster Hunter simulates it well on how you would wear a full outfit to a zone, I don't see why this shouldn't be copied in a similar way to get maximum protection against the local threats.
They made it a trinity for normalgays instead of the superior hexagon or even more sided for real people.
The notion that being able to do one excludes the ability to perform others. Hybrid taxes are only practical on paper because fulfilling 2 roles at once is impossible in practice, rather a player of a hybrid must adapt to one role or another as the situation demands it. Take vanilla wow for example; mt dies, suddenly dps warrior throws on a shield and takes tanks place. They are capable of both tanking and damage, but cannot do both at once. When the token retadin needs to start spot healing, they are no longer damaging, and when they go back to damage, they are no longer healing.
Therefor, there is zero reason for dedicated class roles to exist outside of turn-based scenarios. Classes should only be defined by what abilities thematically fit them within lore surrounding them.
There's nothing wrong with it. WoW etc have a lot of problems but there's nothing inherently wrong with trinity-based gameplay.
>Anons in the threads crying about having to choose between 3 roles (sometimes 4 or 5) because its restrictive
You poor things https://www.soccercoachingpro.com/soccer-positions/