When did d + d turn from a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons of a single barony for gold and glory, to a game about "diverse" capeshit superheroes saving the world?
This is something modern players just don't get. They don't know the roots of d + d. They don't respect those roots.
 CRIME Shirt $21.68 |
 Tip Your Landlord Shirt $21.68 |
CRIME Shirt $21.68 |
Around the time WotC bought it.
Threads over, No further comments needed.
Ignore 3rd edition and beyond, it's a different game entirely. DM oldschool D&D, introduce new people to it. Only (You) can do this!
Fippy.
It wasn't just that. The rise of Owod and even indie games to a large degree was capitalizing on a desire for people for a more cinematic style of play.
>but it sure is easier to write shit rules about your very special wunderkund OC needs to fail 17 death saves and get a letter from your mother giving permission before killing you rather then making a game where death is around every corner.
You know, you people keep going on so hyperbolicly about death saving throws, but the actual math behind 5e's death saves is just a 60% chance of survival overall. Each roll has a base 55% pass rate, a natural 20 means you're instantly up, but a natural 1 means 2 automatic fails rather than 1. So over three death saves, it's about 60%.
Or in other words, 40% - two in five - times a character drops and starts making deaths saves, they should actually be dying. If they're not, that's not the system's fault, that's either the PCs being adept at saving other PCs; or the DM being too lenient and making saving the PCs easy.
NTA, but finally somebody said it. Character knocked out by damage has 40% chance of dying, which is still a lot. Not only that, but they can be finished off by enemies, with high level opponents being able to casually off knocked out character.
Now, the real issue is that the characters don't suffer any penalty for being on the death door if they get healed, so healing spells can make characters get back up like freaking roly-poly toys.
I need to really read John Carter, since his adventures keep on sounding crazier and crazier the more people reference them.
Dragonlance.
they delved into dungeons and a ranger had his face melted off by a black dragon, killing him of course.
What happened to riverwind fricked my kiddie brain up a bit when I read it.
>Dragonlance.
>DragonLance
dragonlance did not have genasi, tieflings, furries and things like that. You are all OSR psychopaths.
the characters were mostly fighters and very simple. 4 fighters, 1 ranger, 1 cleric, 1 mage, 1 thief.
5 warriors, and 3 other classes. 5 characters are human 1 is half elf, 1 is dwarf, 1 is kender.
>dragonlance did not have genasi, tieflings, furries and things like that
Neither did OP’s question.
>Neither did OP’s question.
it has "diverse" capeshit, learn to read
Dragonlance had draconians centaurs minotaurs ogres and ursoi.
>d draconians centaurs minotaurs ogres and ursoi.
Draconians were monsters, and those races that had been listed as optional (minotaurs) or never chosen by anyone nor did they have any capeshit marvel diversity to them or sexualization.
Minotaurs were the roman empire, with minotaurs.
You never played dragonlance or read anything. Draconians were monsters.
lol, they had an entire novel or two dedicated to humanizing them.
>never chosen by anyone
Prove it.
>furries
Dude it has minotaurs, which are like the original furry.
Dragonlance literally gave the players rules to play minotaurs and irda (the super-special proto-ogre race) as part of the very first ever setting book, "Dragonlance Adventures" for AD&D 1st edition.
Dragonlance fanboy is seething,
It was Dragonlance that marked the move to narrative-driven storyshitting.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic in question, you goddamn illiterate
Also it's worth pointing out that Raistlin is a super-special snowflake. He's got special eyes, special skin, white hair, total pizza cutter.
In the 80s.
Hail Greybeard.
I read thy rune-scrawl, and mark it true.
In my grandfather's time, in the aftermath of an ancient war, a conclave of warlocks, used the teachings of those calling themselves "The Chosen", mixed with the dark powers of uncreation, to enslave the world's nations in a web of blackmail, intrigue, and false promises.
They sought to unmake the foundation of civilization itself, which is a thing perpetuated by stories of founders and heroes.
They took away the old stories, with their true lessons, and their mysteries and minor sacrality.
And they replaced them with parodies, and inversions, and so, hoped to make the world into a parody of itself.
What you see, in your game of dice and chits, is just the fingertip of The Devil.
Scry elsewhere and you will see it's dire influences spread throughout the land, and blight the lives of all peoples.
Wicked men call themselves good, and truth is called lies.
True stories are forbidden, because they might awake The Old Magic.
are "true stories" about how black people need to be killed or something this sounds kinda sus
Yes. Black people need to be killed.
Nay, they were tales of the beast men, with many accounts of their barbarism. Some say they accounted for nearly half of all wicked deeds in their adopted kingdoms, despite being just over one tenth of the population.
What a bunch of bullshit. TSR started selling story-based stuff after Dragonlance because it sells better than a boring hex grind or endless meat grinder dungeons. What you're arguing for is publishing less popular material and going bankrupt out of a selfish and childish demand for your own gratification.
Everything that exist should exist only to make money? Gee, I wonder who’s behind this post…
Meanwhile the people are overwhelmingly rejecting stuff ridden bluehaired bullshit to the point where major money makers like Star Wars and MCU are now massive money losers. Somehow though you probably don’t have a problem with that, even as sales of d&d books continue to spiral.
>Everything that exist should exist only to make money?
Not everything that exists, but certainly anything made by a corporation as part of its business model.
>Meanwhile the people are overwhelmingly rejecting stuff ridden bluehaired bullshit
It's funny because you're so wrong.
Who could have predicted that for-profit companies tend to go for broad appeal because that usually makes them the most money?
This, and anyone pretending otherwise should be killed.
Then get out in the street and be the change you want to see in the world. Come on, coward. You posted it. Live up to your own words.
Glorious, brother preach.
Really leaning into the "every DM is a shitty writer" stereotype there kek
good read/10
>he didn’t get it
No, I understood perfectly. You're just bad.
seethe, shitter
Late 2nd edition.
It was a pretty clear progression. The game started as a mindless meat grinder that got fun in later levels when you could do things besides run away from everything. So people said
>Why not just skip to the fun parts?
And this progressed until the game lost all semblance of being a game
Qnd winning became the norm. Nowadays there is nothing to be played and seen, so all that remains is playacting
>And this progressed until the game lost all semblance of being a game
moronic sub-60 IQ take. If it has rules, and it has mechanics, it is a game. Every edition of D&D has rules and mechanics, ergo they are all games. Just because they aren't boring meat grinders that suck shit to play doesn't make them not games.
Not him but rules don't mean shit, it is often encouraged to bypass and alter them through rule0 in name of narrative and rule of cool (eg: fudging).
not games
"Skipping to the fun parts" ruins the experience of exploration. All people do in D&D now is fight and talk. When you actually have to do stuff like tracking your torches and mapping the world becomes much more alive
That's like saying a new version of poker when the cards are all aces would be fun. Making it to easy so everyone wins equally makes for a shit game.
There are plenty of games that do that. Any good OSR does it.
You don't need for your game to be called the dragon game for it to work, unless it's "being with the cool kids" you're looking for.
Hell, you want that? Play any version of the dragon game before 3.0, you can have both.
>it's not a game because it's fun
put me in the screenshot
It’s not a game because there’s no meaningful decision making anymore. You make a character, the DM hand crafts encounters for your character with the intention being your victory, and you roll dice until you win. That’s the most popular play style at least. The combat might be challenging but that’s the most that can come out of it anymore. Even the stories you come out able to tell are almost always stories players expected to come about due to a pre written backstory. The job of the DM has essentially become leading people through a story they are too lazy to write using chained combat encounters and RP that has little meaning as players only care about stuff that relates to their backstory.
DL1: Dragons of Despair in 1984
Around the time doing your 87th pointless dungeon run as the same stock character got stale and players began to branch out and take advantage of the premise of high fantasy being worlds where "anything is possible".
Don't get me wrong, the classic dungeon run can be fun, but it isn't the peak of the RPG experience and limiting RPGs to it is stupid.
Also, nice aislop OP pic. Very trad. Terabytes of soulful classic fantasy art and you went to something even more modern and zoomer than "diverse capeshit". Really shows you appreciate the spirit of classic fantasy and its legacy.
>and players began to branch out and take advantage of the premise of high fantasy being worlds where "anything is possible".
And then they learned that there's a reason why a child with 200 colors of crayon isn't as good an art as a master with ten shades of charcoals.
A child with ten shades of charcoal is still shit. A master with 200 colours is still a master too. There's a reason the majority of art uses colour in some shape or form.
The child with 200 colors of crayon will create something more unique and interesting than the artist with 10 shades of charcoals, because the former is not bound by decades of conditioning from art school and public opinion, and the child still have their innocence and creativity.
Unique and interesting != good.
Innocence and creativity != mastery.
My kids' artwork is awesome and funny, but only because a child made it, and only because I'm their parent.
Anyone else looking at a circle with a bunch of lines isn't going to think much of it (it's a porcupine), and frankly, kids draw the exact same thing hundreds of times.
It's the same with games in a campaign. Mix it up, keep the players on their toes while catering to their playstyle.
Lmao, you say kids have no true creativity on one hand yet are also all about trying to force conformity as good. Meanwhile across most boards on this site we got literal adults given the seemingly boundless tool of creativity that is ai art, and all they can do is get a machine to spit out billions of slightly different images of women.
kid's drawing better
you actually think you're an artist as you railroad your players through the same ten encounters lmao
>Copy-pasting "generic human fighter" dozens of times because there's a 60-40 chance of getting pasted by a save-or-die trap every 10 steps is "art"
yes, moron
>d + d
I had no idea that the 2D fighter teabag was gritty and involved dungeons and baronies. I learn so much from this board.
Around the same time people who fancy themselves as cool and macho and stoic decided the best way to be cool and macho and stoic is to b***h and whine about literally everything at all times
Times Change
It's been the thing you dislike a lot longer than it ever was the thing you like. Play a different game
Mercenaries are boring after the first time you play, and everyone including Gygax knew throwing wizards shooting fireballs and LOTR elves and Dune sandworms into any given ye olde swords setting was the hypest shit imaginable
TFW Tékumel is older than DnD so technically "diverse" "exotic" settings pre-date male human fighter wankery.
Turns out people like exploring the unknown. Who would have thought.
Tekumel despite its exotic setting is still grounded in the sense that the protagonists are expected to be human male warriors and maybe one or two alien sidekicks.
I just read about that "finding" they had about the author few years ago. Absolutely bizarre.
Extremely interesting setting nonetheless.
How can one man be so based?
Which one did it "better"?
Chuck Tingle.
About June 2003
When did /tg/ turn from a board discussing traditional games into a board discussing a set of particular meta-topics related to traditional games, with no variation, just the same shit day after day?
This is something modern /tg/ users just don't get. They don't play games.
I play games 3x a week (I really need to cut it down but I can't bear to let go of any of my groups and merging them won't work) and I hate freakshit, which is the reason why I invented the term and why I post about it here.
Shut up gay.
No u shut up
Imagine posting that, in defense of an ideology entirely based around not hurting the feelings of the 'current thing' class of mentally ill people.
It’s not wrong, though.
>Muh freakshit
Unironically activate IRL airplane mode.
Playing games requires friends and people with friends tend to avoid Ganker.
Early /tg/ was a passable substitute for a social life, but that changed very quickly and it's been a cespit of resentment and bait ever since.
Around the time quests got banned.
Lmao, no. /tg/ was alright, BEFORE it became the quest board. Making all boards send their feckless horny ideas guys here was what permanently ruined this board. Nothing but NARP homosexuals since then, and sigmarxist paypiggy trannies.
>revisionist cope
>doesn't even know that quests were allowed on all boards and each board had its own quest subculture for years prior to /tg/ becoming the designated dumping ground for all of them
Broccoli headed homosexual.
quests were "allowed" on all boards until someone actually tried making one outside of /tg/ and got them all banned on every non-/tg/ board you lying moron
I was literally there following the quest that caused it
Why do you lie like this, you moron? The first ever quest I saw on Ganker was on Ganker. /tg/ quests used to be about /tg/, then we had the autism of all boards put here and of course it passed everyone off, so they got exiled to /qst/, but the cringe "ideas guy" cohort had been a big part of the "pro quest" faction on /tg/, and they knew about the moronic "Commander Keen rule" and that was enough to make them stop giving any fricks about quests. They have their ticket to talk about inane fantasy genre trash, about TV shows and their creepy coomer headcanon, that's what they always wanted, quests were just a means to that end which stopped being convenient. But /tg/ is worshipful of off topic genre fiction conversation, so it'll continue to die out until all that's left here are the asoiafg and 40k lore threads. The solution is simple, of course, just remove that idiotic ruling and ban the shitposting morons who don't play or even talk about games. But the troony jannies actually want to see less posters here because they're hasbarat stinkjeets whose primary mission is to make this place unappealing so people don't talk about israelites.
>The first ever quest I saw on Ganker was on Ganker
Yep, I've got pretty fond memories of the ridiculous dating sim quests that always ended with one girl getting raped and dying of aids or whatever. Had a lot of fun being team red and cussing out those homosexuals on team blue.
Quest-thread era /tg/ was fricking AIDS. The board was slower then too, so there would be 2 or 3 maid quest threads up at once. Shit should have been banned and sent to the depths of some shady roleplaying forum where it belongs. At least during the "how 2 maek OP half-vampire kenku samurai in 3.5???" era, posters would be interacting with a given game's system rather than spamming dice rolls in their posts to win the choice given by the quest's OP
Questgays love to pretend they were the lifeblood of this board instead a cancer that was killing it. Giving quests their own board was a common request, even from questgays for the longest time, and then they got it and morons pretended like they were being persecuted. You'd think that if quests were so important that /tg/ would have been bled dry by the split while /qst/ thrived and exploded without the burden of /tg/'s threads slowing them down, but that's not how it happened.
>Questgays love to pretend they were the lifeblood of this board
Judging by the state of the board now, it's pretty evident that they were.
>Giving quests their own board was a common request, even from questgays for the longest time
Not a single questgay wanted it. They even refused to post on that trash heap until they were forced to. There was a pointless grace period for god knows what reason where you could continue making quests on /tg/ for a couple of months, and all that did was demonstrate just how unwanted that board was.
>my pointless dice spam was the soul of /tg/
No moron, the endless threads of "rolldice 1dx i shit in the bucket!" killed the board. Since /tg/ was a slower board, multiple copies of a single quest would quickly overtake any slower threads with actual discussion (worldbuilding, character gen, lore breakdown, art dumps, etc). The competitiveness to win a roll with an absurd response also may have contributed to a rise in popularity of chaotic stupid players, but i cant say that for certain
Killing quests killed the board. You cannot refute this. There was a sharp drop in thread quality almost as soon as they got forced out.
>Since /tg/ was a slower board, multiple copies of a single quest would quickly overtake
Literally never happened, not ONCE, in the history of the board. People checked.
Also, most quests didn't use rolls to make decisions you LARPing imbecile, they just voted.
/qst/ stagnated hard. /tg/ is still going.
You'd like to believe that kicking out quests caused all the high quality, thoughtful, intelligent posts to leave, but they clearly didn't go to /qst/ which just backs up what people who were there during the rise and fall actually know: The vast majority of people showing up for quests were not interested in /tg/, only quests, and even then, only tangentially because the concept had run itself into the ground and become self-parodying by the time they were moved.
If you actually knew your history, you'd also know that a number of other things happened over the course of the past 10+ years that drastically shifted the overall quality of Ganker, bringing in more undesirables, and driving out oldgays, drawgays, and all of the people you seem to think were here because of "Tactical Magical Girl Mafia Isekai Harem Quest Part #594"
The fact that quests are deader than they were on /tg/ proves you wrong.
It's meaningless to allude to some vague nonevents when there is a very specific point at which the quality dropped off a cliff.
>The fact that quests are deader than they were on /tg/ proves you wrong.
In what fricking way?
>It's meaningless to allude to some vague nonevents when there is a very specific point at which the quality dropped off a cliff.
The fappening, gamergate, the 2016 and 2020 election, the multiple manifestos, the creation of /mlp/ and /lgbt/, moot selling the site and Hiroshimoot's numerous acts of brazen incompetence and idiocy, and so on. All events that flooded this place with feds, homosexuals, and redditors, while driving oldgays away and not giving them any reason to ever return. You think moving quests killed /tg/ while not even knowing why this whole site is as bad as it is now.
>In what fricking way?
Not even deigning this newhomosexualry with a response.
>[unrelated schizobabble]
The undisputable fact is that board quality fricking plummeted as soon as quests were forced out. You reap what you sow by forcing creativity off the board. Enjoy your AI generated threads and bumphomosexualry.
Don't accuse other people of schizobabble while you ignore everything being said to you so you can insist that quests were keeping AI botspam off /tg/ years before it started.
Questgays truly are the dumbest motherfrickers.
Quests drew countless writers, drawgays, had entire systems made for them. They were among the best parts of /tg/. Kicking them out set the precedent that none of those things were wanted on this board.
And guess what happened? They left, leaving us with nothing but shit. There are three /slop/ threads up right now. This IS a slop thread, just unlabeled, and there's a fricking ton of these up right now. And these threads draw nothing but morons like you. We've long reached the point where generals are the only thing of any worth left on this board, and it's because you morons cheered as the mods shat on your face and you begged them for more.
>They left, leaving us with nothing but shit.
Then WHY DIDN'T THEY GO TO /QST/ DIPSHIT?
>why do we need art threads on /tg/ when /ic/ exists?
This shit is so self-evident that you're a fricking moron if you don't understand it.
If you want to create off-topic threads you should go to Ganker
>Quests drew countless writers, drawgays, had entire systems made for them
Lmao you're beyond delusional. All the creatives you think were solely here for quests were here for /tg/ and did not follow quests when they left. Then those creatives left as the rest of the site went down the shitter thanks to site-wide problems. You think quests would stop the AI subhumans and bots from filling this board with garbage? Because the real problem, as I've outlined multiple times already, is that the people running the fricking site are incompetent morons.
Yes, we know you're a moron.
Enjoy the smell of shit on your face, moron.
I'm glad we're at the point where it's clear you can barely read, you have no point, and all you can do is lash out like a spastic child. Go back to /qst/ and rot with the rest of the morons.
You've been at this point for years, homosexual. You were like this even before quests got kicked out. Have fun with yoru slop threads.
>NO U
Brilliant stuff. I expect no less from someone who thinks quests were good.
Don't forget the proliferation of internet capable cell phones massively changing the demographics of the entire internet.
>Judging by the state of the board now
The recent state of the board has more to do with moot selling the site off to an incompetent moron who hired almost exclusively goons and trannies who openly hate this site and everything about it, but want to keep it profitable for advertisers. Ever since then, moderation has gotten worse than its ever been and the advent of easily programmable AI bots to spoof PPH has dragged the whole site into depths previously thought impossible.
>seething about playing games on /tg/
It's good to have been vindicated by history. Remove game players, all you're left with is shitposts.
>playing games on /tg/
If that's what you want to call writing amateur softcore porn about romancing monstergirls.
>not putting game mechanics in your porn
what a loser.
>He doesn't put sexy monster girls in all of his settings
What are you, gay?
Imagine being so insecure about your beliefs and identity that you have to throw out a strawman when someone calls you out on your bullshit. We all know you're so deep in the closet you haven't seen daylight in years, homosexual.
>You'd think that if quests were so important that /tg/ would have been bled dry by the split
The amount of topics of discussion was certainly bled dry.
>/qst/ thrived and exploded without the burden of /tg/'s threads slowing them down
This is fricking nonsense logic. Quests thrived on passersby-channers spotting a Quest name/image/premise that got them curious. With Quests being largely non-existent outside of Ganker, there's no reason for /qst/ to ever get new blood because it's a fully local concept.
The truth was that Questing had a symbiotic relationship with /tg/. It was a collective creative endeavor that kept people coming back to /tg/, bumped off dead "elf slave what do" threads, and got people from outside the board actually interested in RP. Even during the questing days a lot of Quest players converted into being tabletop players and years later now they're still playing/GMing.
>Quests thrived on passersby-channers spotting a Quest name/image/premise that got them curious.
How do you figure that worked when the average Quest got more than 2 or 3 threads deep, let alone dozens long, as some often did.
>got people from outside the board actually interested in RP.
People wanting to ERP on /tg/ was not a benefit to the hobby of actually playing RPGs.
>Even during the questing days a lot of Quest players converted into being tabletop players and years later now they're still playing/GMing.
So people who had no reason to be on /tg/ randomly came to /tg/, saw all the quest threads choking this place to death, participated in them, and became lifelong lovers of /tg/ hobbies.
> randomly came to /tg/
I don’t know why you’re so surprised, that’s how I ended up on /tg/. I was basically just bored one day and decided to leave Ganker to check out the other boards, came to /tg/, and saw Tuffle Quest, which was by then already like a dozen threads deep. But it was neat so I joined in. And then I started hanging out on /tg/ generally after that.
Quests were good for /tg/. This is not to be contested, it seems logical enough: they encouraged group participation but people participating would naturally occasionally hop out to check the rest of the board between updates.
Considering quests gave us huge whiny homosexuals like you, it's debatable, at best, that quests were ever good for this place.
Nah, quests were basically all that was holding the board together any more.
It was all that was holding the 2016 tourists back from /tg/.
Honestly feel like it was a bit of both, quest threads were shitting up the place at first, but as the whole board went to shit, they were also holding things together.
be the change you want to see. i think that thread about 1dGanker that turned into a very good discussion about the state of the board was pretty good, and there are still people trying to do better and actualy people who play games. The "your last TTRPG session" thread is actually been quite a highlight for me those past few weeks. Believe it or not, there's actually people still playing games here
That's harder to pin down, but the degradation of this place has been accelerating over the last couple years. Poor moderation and a rise in bot posts are the biggest problems, but issues on other boards have turned /tg/ into the /trash/ of blue boards where any topic that can be tangentially connected to TTRPGs is assumed to be on topic and valid, despite shit like
>tell me about [blank] in your setting
>how do you like you [blank]s
and other bullshit template threads being nothing but vague noise that seems to only exist for bots to generate fake PPH statistics to ensure Ganker can keep their ad rates from dropping any lower.
within a year of being created. when the board was brand new it was basically nothing but warhammer shit, d&d 3.5 build autism, and people being bad at mtg. it quickly turned into fantasy themed /b/ though and got invaded by people from places like rpgcodex. /tg/ became a board full of obnoxious "creative" types who prided themselves on "getting shit done" ie creating stupid oc that wasn't even tangentially related to tabletop gaming. there were tons of "see this what do" threads which turned into quest threads. mods tried to take the out which made people absolutely mald, but as you can see the place is still basically a cleaned up /b/ with elves.
>mald
underage opinion discarded
Objectively true.
underage samegay
Keep hoping that's true. It won't be, but maybe you can convince yourself.
>too young to remember /tg/'s origins on /b/
>too young to remember it was full of artists and creators even then
>too nogames to understand that everyone here is a creative, and this is in fact required for all /tg/ activities
I bet this homosexual plays modules only.
Finally the truth.
Let's remind ourselves that the ~~*creatives*~~ seethe so hard at the fact they were asked to leave they call the person responsible "nazimod" (which is accurate actually he did cause a lolocaust)
It's not only /tg/.
Look at /misc/ or Ganker, most threads are about how the board is being shilled or used as propaganda.
You literally has to make a thread on Ganker saying something like "this is a thread about the game's actual gameplay".
Ganker actually has a rule against shitposting, too bad it's rarely enforced.
One man's shitpost is another man's board culture.
>discussing traditional games into a board discussing a set of particular meta-topics related to traditional games, with no variation, just the same shit day after day?
16 February, 2007.
In a similar vein, did something happen recently that lead to an uptick in performative grog behavior? I want to say this is some culture war fallout since most of them almost speak entirely in buzzwords but that shit's been going on forever and this trend feels recent.
There was a brief, but impactful time a few years ago when a bunch of poseur homosexuals adapted the sigma male life coach hustle shtick to D&D and began peddling that they were the only people playing "TRVE D&D AS GYGAX INTENDED" by jerking off about pulp fantasy and a handful of optional rules out of various old D&D books and talking about how no one else is playing real RPGs unless they also play the same way as these true men of culture and history.
So it kinda went like
>wow I'm sick of all this culture warrior x-card safety tools storygame bullshit!
>Would you like some DIFFERENT culture warrior bullshit instead?!
Same year that the rest of this site went to shit, 2016. Once the election tourists moved in and took over the moderation, this site was fricked.
Low IQ culture warriors are the main source of the problem, yes.
That and gamergate, which didn't really have the best effects on culture war bullshit.
Billions of third worlders have gotten internet access over the last decade and all the right wingers got kicked out of reddit resulting in this mess of resentful culture warriors we have now.
>right wingers got kicked out of reddit
I was gonna give you shit, but then I remembered that actually did happen when they purged all the vaguely right-leaning subreddits. That's not the only reason Ganker turned to shit, but it certainly didn't fricking help.
when did comedy movies turn from black and white silent film about a dude getting into whacky situations to movies about two bums sitting in a mall most of the day and making poop jokes?
This is something modern movie audiences just don't get. They don't know the roots of cinema, they don't respect those roots
Times change, tastes change. Only being stuck in the past never helped anyone. There will always be an audience for the classics, but no one in their right mind expects audiences to only watch old shit like casablanca and buster keaton.
*living up to the past
This is the dumbest fricking take ever. Tastes did not change D&D it was bought and transformed into what it is today by a group of spiteful mutants who want to beat you over the head with their values or lack thereof. Listen to what these people say to each other and they talk directly about it and you milquetoast morons are in here calling it a conspiracy theory. There was no hidden group of coloreds, cripples and troons waiting to be catered to. That's why despite being catered to they still have only token representation. Your inability to parse internet signal to noise has warped your reality.
1. Pic related is from Dungeons and Dragons, the 1974 wargame supplement for Chainmail.
2. OP is eternally a homosexual
“Cannot” is not “should not”, and tieflings and Dragonborn were not part of “anything” when this was written.
This. The paragraph is clearly written as theoretical and not “you should and must let them play anything”. It’s more “yeah, you jackasses can play freakshit but you basically have to have special rules for it, which is effectively me saying don’t bother”.
>this part where he says you can do it mean you shouldn't
the mind of a dandrone, ladies and gentlemen
So what? It's no skin off my ass if someone at my table plays a tiefling. Stop being so triggered, it's pathetic.
Players shouldn't start out weak.
>to a game about "diverse" capeshit superheroes saving the world?
Around when DragonLance was published.
It's astonishing how people continue to find more and more obnoxious ways to write "D&D".
frick the ampersand.
Odd hill to die on, but I'll allow it.
Frick your laziness.
This, this thread is underage as frick. None of the people complaining about this shit have consumed any of the source material their supposedly sacred systems are based on, nor are they aware of the evolution of the hobby, because they're 14 and have played in two games ever.
Which isn't to say, honestly, that you need to know about these things to partake in the hobby or be a "real" TTRPG player or whatever, but if you're going to discuss problems and concepts like this, you absolutely do.
Frick those roots. If i wanted something more realistic and gritty i would play a simulationist system that can actually do that well. Not mudcore DND
I’d say around 1980
OP sounds like a 12 yo eastern european
A precise date is hard to nail down, but it's unquestionable that there was a point where this happened and it's something I've been investigating (for real) because there's a definite difference in how the game used to be played in common in 1980-1985 and how it's played now (circa 2020-2024). Part of the problem with actually nailing down the change is that it's hard to find documented proof that a style of play existed that is not the norm now. Noone sat around and recorded and documented play style, they just did it. Now of course we can quantify todays style of play because we can observe it. We can see that it's basically superhero-y (cape shit as some call it) now, but if you claim that it was not superhero-y then, you'll get confronted to "prove it wasnt" which you technically can't do. because noone recorded or documented it.
HOWEVER, I've been doing my research, looking at the old editions of the games that pioneered the old style of play, (not D&D because it really doesn't record a style of play, trying to be all things to all people) but if you look at Tunnels and Trolls. and Chivalry and Sorcery, and Judges Guild's First fantasy campaign, you start seeing a distinctly different style of play emerge. There's more fidelity with a gritty swords and sorcery style of play where the world of play is by and large a world just like our own, with recognizable physical laws, taxes, cultures, etc, and that magic and the extraordinary is Extraordinary and fantastical. Modern play pays no tribute to having the game world have to make sense and follow logic, the old method of play DID and you can find it codified in the older rules, look at chivalry and sorcery's red book for examples of this.
In the 3.x post-drizzt era, there was no substantial difference between how people played then and how people play now, outside of the influence of online resources of "character builds". That was a much bigger thing in 3rd edition play. You'll have to look at Dragon mags from the 2e days; there's a lot of how-to-play and play report type stuff in zines and mags from the late-80s and early-90s.
There's autism and then there's this post.
He's talking about the traditonal games in the traditional games place! get him!
I believe it somewhat coincides with the release of Skyrim. I recall playing a game in 2006-2007 where we all played your standard fare dungeon exploration. I got back into DnD/Pathfinder in 2012 with a new group, and even though each campaign only lasted a few sessions, each one was either save the world or destroy the world. There were no mundane adventuring for adventure sessions. There always had to be a carrot on a stick to follow.
Maybe not 100% Skyrim's fault, but I do believe that how inspiration (and introduction to RPGs) is consumed has a lot to do with it. The older generation drew inspiration from books, magazines, and movies. My cohort of players/GMs added video games as magazines fell out of favor. Newer players are likely more video games and less of the other subject matter, with the addition of youtube celebs. As a result, players want a different experience across each cohort without necessarily knowing what it is each one wants. I joined a group last year and there is a huge difference between how I play and how guys 10-15yrs younger than me play. I was the only one to show up with a detailed inventory, they all just bought the "adventurer's kit" or whatever 5e calls it and assumed everything they would ever need is it there. They had no rope, candles, chalk, oil flasks, or torches/lanterns. These younger guys just sort of assume that the world will be tailor-made to be waiting for them to show up, a flaw that many video games have (e.g. the ancient crypt is convienently lit by torches already), rather than adapting to the world itself. It's been a pain for me since I was quickly elected as a replacement GM due to the previous one's burnout. Ill put something together expecting them to catch on easily, but instead they just stand around wieners-in-hand confused by what theyre supposed to do. For example they went into a store that was clearly labeled "no weapons allowed" armed to the teeth but didnt understand why a fight began
>"prove it wasnt" which you technically can't do. because noone recorded or documented it.
You can do this easily, you just have to point out the sexual deviations and bizarre fashion choices of rpg groups past 2020 (this actually started before 2020 probably around 2015 by the way)
Yeah but bizarre fashion choices and deviancy have been in D&D for ages, it's the style of play that's changed dramtically. Someone commented either above or in another thread that they distinctly see the difference, where the modern player doesn't get stuff like chalk, thread, marbles, salt, a lamp, etc, but just get a "adventurers kit" and think they've got it covered. but when they encounter a situation where they need to do more than must hit it with a weapon or cast a spell at it, they stand around looking stupid with their dicks in their hands, because noone has ever made them think about actually doing things in the game. Old style of play required more thought from players. It required them to imagine what they'd do in a situation where they have to think their way out of problems. Its like throwing a football linesman into an escape room, they just stand there with not the slightest idea what to do when the obvious solutions of "hit the problem" doesn;t work.
When people playing DnD started wanting something more than a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons of a single barony for gold and glory.
>This is something modern players just don't get. They don't know the roots of d + d. They don't respect those roots.
Knowing and respecting the roots of the hobby doesn't require people to keep playing in a specific way, anon. Knowing and respecting the roots of Western civilization doesn't mean I have to try to live my life like an ancient slave-owning Greek, knowing and respecting the roots of modern Western medicine doesn't mean I should refuse anything that came after Galen and new-fangled nonsense, and so on. Appreciating history and being stuck in the past are not the same thing. RPGs in general are very diverse these days, and I don't just mean in the sense of inclusion, representation and all that. I mean there are all kinds of games for all kinds of tastes out there. Your gritty dungeon crawls are still there and you can play them if that's what floats your boat.
>Knowing and respecting the roots of Western civilization doesn't mean I have to try to live my life like an ancient slave-owning Greek
Interrogate this point. Why shouldn't you want to live in the fashion of a superior age?
It certainly does mean all of those things. Old > new.
AI Slop Thread
I don't need to know the roots of cinema to enjoy a good movie. It helps, and any discussion about the medium as a whole will inevitably benefit from such knowledge, but it's not required.
That said the shift you're talking about probably happened around 3e or late 2e.
>When did d + d turn from a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons of a single barony for gold and glory, to a game about "diverse" capeshit superheroes saving the world?
When Gygax's campaign hit high-levels.
The old experience table from time of the fighting man literally called your "gritty human men" superheroes past a certain amount of experience.
>/thread
DnD was always far out of ordinary once you progressed past shiv fighting orcs in rotting ruins.
>Old good
New bad
This threads downgrade the overall quality of /tg/. Please, try to quality post more OP.
New IS often shit. For instance, graphics got good just in time for evangelical puritans to make the games themselves bowdlerized shit
So go try and try to recruit players for an old school session. Go on. Do up a flyer and gauge interest. Stop whining on a shitty website and be the change you want to see in the world. Just stop blaming blue-haired boogeyman for why you're so miserable.
Its really not hard, I got 5 (a sixth wants to join) for my Worlds Without Number game.
Congratulations. Now stop whining.
>STOP TALKING ABOUT THINGS I DISAGREE WITH
wah wah wah, I don't want to hear it.
Who gives a shit about what a bunch of old boomers were doing? I'm going to do what my players enjoy, and if you've got any sense you'll do the same instead of trying - and failing - to ape Gygax and Arneson.
>players want to be weird stuff is supposedly a real problem
>meanwhile over at mtg
>the closer a character is to you, to more you relate them
I'll never accept this bullshit line as long as this guy still sells products.
If you relate to him, that just means you're trans.
Transformers are just metal humans. And Prime in particular is just your dad, but awesome.
I mean, they’re anthropomorphic (in the sense of giving humanlike qualities to nonhuman things) to an extent, sure, but the Transformers fandom has embraced the nonhuman parts of them for ages and ages. The comics have been delving into the concept of gender and what it means for a species of robots they reproduce asexually for nearly two decades now, for example, and even outside the gender stuff, the fact that they can live for millions of years has been a key part of their culture since forever.
So they’re anthropomorphized, sure, but a large part of the draw of Transformers and a large part of the work that goes into them is about their INHUMAN aspects.
…oh, Starscream, for the record. He’s my favorite. Specifically G1 Starscream. Very specifically, as he appeared in the original cartoon. I love that he’s simultaneously a genius and an idiot.
Sure, there are differences, but their psychology is still fundamentally human. It takes no effort at all to understand their motivations in terms of human feelings. Even their alien qualities, they approach them like a human would.
Gender, I'm not going to touch that. But I will challenge the claim that their longevity makes them that different. They don't behave like they're 4 million years old. They behave like adult humans, not wizened ancient creatures with thousands upon thousands of years of life experience. The writers (usually) don't put in the effort to think about the ramifications. (And why should anyone expect they do, it's a fricking toy commercial.)
Transformers are just regular humans psyches transplanted into immortal bodies. They have regular human feelings and regular human character development. (As opposed to reacting to literally everything with "seen that". Anything that changes your mind after a million years would have to be truly groundbreaking.)
> They don't behave like they're 4 million years old.
And what does a 4 million year old robot behave like, then?
I will refuse this take on "People only relate to humans or human-lite characters" when I see people constantly say they cried and still get teary eyed when reading Matoro's death.
>slop poster complaining about watering down everything over time
lelmao even
>"diverse" capeshit superheroes saving the world?
Diversity of races in D&D, actual "marvel diversity" and not jut oh many different races which was always optional but never foundational like it later became.
This begun with Planescape 2e as the foundation as ti added tiefling and bariaur and various planar races.
D&D 3.5 Forgotten Realms, it added all the races from planescape except the bariaur but added drow and others on top as options. This made the characters harder to kill due to the mechanics and exploitation but not that much.
Faerun is planescape today in all but name.
D&D 4e explosion and distortion of everything.
D&D 5e explosion, nuclear and colossal distortion of everything.
nothing to do with mystara, dragonlance (osr jehovah's witnesses hate it because of the stories), greyawk or ravenloft or any other 2e setting other than PLANESCAPE. Which was and is trash. It made the special and the rare a common mundane thing and we got diversity and marvel capeshit all in one.
What is to blame? Planescape, Powers and Options books (2.5e in effect), D&D 3.5 in general and Forgotten Realms in particular, D&D 4e, D&D 5e,
Oh no, not diversity. Anything but diversity.
Do you have any idea how fricking pathetic you sound to normal people?
>Do you have any idea how fricking pathetic you sound to normal people?
Normal people:
Literally just play video games instead, they do dungeon crawls so much better than any tabletop game ever could.
Ben, you were born in 1994.
>When did d + d turn from a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons of a single barony for gold and glory, to a game about "diverse" capeshit superheroes saving the world?
Long before you were born zoomzoom.
>This is something modern players just don't get. They don't know the roots of d + d. They don't respect those roots.
You never experienced those roots. You only have a cargo cult perception of it.
Kys troon. Your gaslighting tactics won't work here.
He's not the one gaslighting, though. D&D moved away from being exclusively about what OP described before the '70s were done. Certainly at the latest by the time game lines like Spelljammer and settings like Dragonlance were coming out.
Spelljammer is absolutely awesome. You morons just can't run anything that isn't an autistic hexcrawl.
>a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons of a single barony for gold and glory
D&D was never this.
>a game about "diverse" capeshit superheroes saving the world
D&D was never this, either. I don't know what this weird need to invent a mythic past about a game you don't play as part of a hobby of which you aren't a part, but you should probably just have a nice day.
>>a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons of a single barony for gold and glory
>D&D was never this.
Demonstrably false.
Go read Judges Guild The First Fantasy Campaign. This was PRECISELY what D&D was about. Also if you look at b3 Keep on the Borderlands that's precisely what that was about. Honestly, its mind boggling that you might be so non conversant with the history of the game and the themes that it explored and you would claim something so untrue
>>a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons of a single barony for gold and glory
>D&D was never this.
yeah man, dungeons were never the important part of dungeons and dragons.
I really wish people would stop saying moronic shit just to be contrarian. You can literally pirate a copy of mentzer's basic to see that dungeon delving was the most important part of the game, and the recommended start for a GM was to make a village or town and a dungeon like 3 hours away.
>When did d + d turn from a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons of a single barony for gold and glory, to a game about "diverse" capeshit superheroes saving the world?
I assume sometime around the 3rd or 4th game played by the general public.
People that obsess over being human in games are so fricking gay. They all reek of the type to basedjak over HFY shit which is unironically the lowest fricking form of fiction to exist. Imagine having so fricking little in your life and being so terrified of being called racist for being proud of your heritage that you wank off to mere fricking fact you're human and some other humans in your made up stories about the future or fantasy are always the super coolest totally bestest heroes.
imagine hating yourself so much you pretend to be some pansexual futanari tiefling warlock to feel better about your life 🙂
remember: a good roleplayer and a well-adjusted person focusses on what they do and not what they are
>if you don't love play exclusively humans then you have to be opposite end of extremes!
You're legitimately fricking stupid.
>a good roleplayer and a well-adjusted person focusses on what they do and not what they are
False dichotomy, you can do both.
Imagine basing your entire stance off of an ancient copypasta.
when I was a kid my favorite stories were all about talking animals. I'm probably lucky I didn't become a furry.
Human male fighters are a patrician choice. It's kinda like how if you actually talk to people with tons of piercings and tattoos they're usually pretty boring. You don't need to look like a freak to feel interesting if you have some hobbies and a career.
I'd also assume most players are white or spiritually white dudes who want an avatar of themselves in the world to take Shadowheart to Poundtown.
All of the least interesting people I've ever met have been dangerhairs riddled with "body art" who, if they were into RPGs, loved freakshit.
The cyclists and outdoorsy people? Almost universally visually milquetoast mid white dudes and chicks who work in offices. The woodworkers and crafters? Almost universally middle aged+ balding white men in polo shirts and work cargos. The wargamers? GW's recent attempts to go mainstream may mislead you, because the reality is middle aged+ nerdy white dudes or ex-military and most wargamers play historicals. RPGs are the only hobby outside of modern art that has any significant infiltration of freakshit and homosexualry, likely due to the way the hobby has been transformed over the years from an actual game to lazy-LARPing, thus attracting theatre kids.
Almost all genuinely interesting people with hobbies and friends look exactly like every other pleb on the street, because they lead happy fulfilled lives and don't need to prance around looking like Rob Zombie fricked a Holi powder factory and tell everyone how SPESHUL they are to make up for the cavernous emptiness where their soul should be.
Bland copypasta.
am I mistaken in blaming white wolf for encouraging the type of player who comes up with a complete story for their character before even writing up the character sheet?
you werent even alive the last time it was like that. frick off
>the human only player
>the human only player
I can’t relate to him.
>"Would I frick that?" method
That's actually pretty effective. To all the DMs out there, if your players are trying to play freakshit again, ask yourselves if you would frick their character. If the answer is yes, let them play it
>Get one of these GMs
>Ask to play a Thri-Kreen
>He allows it
>MFW
2e was the start, 3e was the end.
>When did d + d turn from a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons of a single barony for gold and glory, to a game about "diverse" capeshit superheroes saving the world?
By 1989 or ADnD2e, parties were already canonically The Good Guys and the Player's Handbook already had a note on he/him pronouns on the first page.
Hard fact #1: Any product sold for profit takes into account the tastes and standards of politeness of the market it targets, and the wider the group it tries to sell to the more more stringent the standards become.
Hard Fact #2: You don't need any mass marked products to play DnD; you need the social skills to acquire and inspire a small group of associates to play your game.
Before you and 99% of the people in this thread were even born.
Free market
When people finally got bored of going from room to room in a dungeon only to level up and buy gear in order to do the same fricking thing over and over.
>When people finally got bored of going from room to room in a dungeon only to level up and buy gear in order to do the same fricking thing over and over.
Thank you for illustrating why it should be roleplaying not roll-playing.
1988 or thereabouts,with the cancer fully setting in 1994
Men & Magic, page 8.
>d + d turn from
>a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons
Never was that in the first place, memer
>When did d + d turn from
The answer is always 3rd edition. Everything cancerous in current year D&D has its roots in 3e.
>When did d + d turn from a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons of a single barony for gold and glory, to a game about "[meaningless buzzword]" [meaningless buzzword] superheroes saving the world?
When Elf was introduced as a class, so from the very fricking beginning you brain-rotted troglodyte. Take your culture war shit leave and stay there.
>They don't respect those roots.
That's right, I have zero respect for the dogshit that is TSR and the absolute moron Gary Gaygag who was behind it.
>Day12037812379123712 of Oldgays acting like doing anything beyond a gritty dungeon crawl with blank slate 87 is slop
>When did d + d turn from a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons of a single barony for gold and glory
Huh?
Human only posters always manage to come off as simultaneously pretentious, insufferable, and seething.
🙂
>When did d + d turn from a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons of a single barony for gold and glory, to a game about "diverse" capeshit superheroes saving the world?
Never, in my experience. Try not playing with homosexuals.
>AI slop + low effort bait
I would just ignored your thread op if wasn't for the fact that you're inadvertently correct:
>This is something modern players just don't get
Just remove "modern" from the phrase and you're pretty much right. The gonzo-ish "anything goes" of original d&d was deep rooted in pulp s&s fiction and even modern d&d is somewhat reflective of that despite the best efforts in writers and mistaken players/gm in twisting its emergent gameplay into something almost antithetical (cinematic heroic narratives).
Honestly, if you want to avoid this ask your players if they have read anything of the Appendix N (a "no" or a "yes but i didn't like them" is an automatic frick off obviously) and, if yes, ask them what kind of character they would like to reference about those stories if they say for example Elric, Conan, Fafhrd or Gray Mouser drop them off, if they reply with Rackhir, Moonglum, Count Trocero, Taurus the thief, etc... they are fricking golden.
>you're not allowed to like Conan
You contrarians keep getting worse by the day
Absolute cretin, i never stated such. I said "what character the would like to reference" not "what character the like, period.".
You can like Conan, Elric, etc... while fricking understanding that a party completely composed by literal protagonists isn't going anywhere, that's why i cited secondary characters of these sagas. You failed the test Black.
>a party completely composed by literal protagonists isn't going anywhere,
I think you made a logical misstep somewhere. If you prompt someone to compare his PC to a fantasy hero he might have any number of reasons to name the Gray Mouser. Most of which aren't about hogging the spotlight, he might just want to be a thief with a rapier for example. Your test is womanly and unscientific.
>If you prompt someone to compare his PC to a fantasy hero
I didn't, i specifically asked "what kind of character they would like to reference about those stories" which includes ALL of the ones appearing there. Also if you specifically point to the Grey Mouser AFTER i made sure you read the stories you clearly didn't want a generic talented fencer rogue, you want an ex-wizard apprentice with unparalleled fencing abilities now rogue right from the bat, not quite like Elric but probably on the same toe with Conan in terms of protagonist status.
No, I wanted a generic talented fencer rogue. Do NOT tell me what my preferences are. I won't warn you again.
Better safe than sorry, you can frick off playing elsewhere.
I'm be happy to take that W, but godspeed in your crusade against whatever it is you're butthurt about.
No, I'll play at your table, and you are entirely incapable of stopping me.
Nothing stops them from going anywhere, actually.
A party of sidekicks isn't going anywhere, someone has to be conan. Why not me?
no, they certainly are going somewhere, without you.
>A party of sidekicks isn't going anywhere
I dunno, the Teen Titans is a reasonably successful superhero team (in terms of appeal and longevity of the franchise) that's literally made up primarily of sidekicks.
nah your preferences are garbage
Frick off you fricking newbie pretender.
Play Dark Sun.
1989 with the release of AD&D 2e which turned DnD into a heroic, fantasy game, where you always played the good guys and adventures became entirely railroaded.
Frick Quests I want my Diplomacy/Risk threads. Probably the best fun I had on this board was a Game of Thrones one.
when people got better taste.
Why should I respect the roots? What are you going to do about it?
'Bout ten years at the latest.
Dragonlance came out 1984, which was a bunch of diverse superheroes saving the world.
So yeah. Before you were born, newbie.
dragonlance was shit too.
Yep.
Doesn't actually prove me wrong though.
The first example of what a D&D hero is like, and I mean #1, as in in front of Conan, is John Carter. John Carter married an egg-laying space babe and his best friend was 9 feet tall with four arms, and he saves the world in the first book while D&D references him saving the world in the second. Level 8 fighters are literally called superheroes. The earliest D&D adventure that's about saving the world is probably Queen of the Demonweb Pits (1980), but the underlying idea of an important, heroic war between the forces of Law and Chaos was present in Chainmail and in OD&D. There is no textual basis that justifies human-only D&D or "gritty" play persisting past the earliest levels. Instead, the game is consistent in providing strong, diverse characters and setting a heroic and triumphant tone. Even if you approach D&D with your culture war neuroses and skill issues, you would need to fail at reading comprehension to misinterpret it this hard. The problem is you didn't approach D&D at all, you just make assumptions and ask meta questions about them.
A very Shemitish answer, anon. Very Shemitish indeed.
About the same time that the fantays stories that inspired DnD campaigns started getting better than sword and sorcery pulp drek.
>d + d
Probably because some players enjoyed playing also in "the world" and wanted more than just dungeon crawling. People also seem to enjoy more narrative style campaigns, and people have long been playing DnD in that fashion -- particularly because it's inspired by Tolkien.
>fat frick old man OP cucked because his players want something more than reciting statistics to each other
cope and dilate boomer.
>m-muh game!
It's boomers that spawned the millenials its your fault. you created them. you did this.
Hey, dipshit. Nothing is stopping you from running a Conan-esque "human fighters only and elves and dwarves are a class rather than a race" game with your friends, assuming you can find anyone willing to tolerate your presence. Right now you just sound like one of those whiny boomers who's losing their shit because other people might pick options that don't appeal to your personal tastes. (They let you play *women* in muh game of pretend even if you don't identify as one now?! Outrageous! Scandalous!)
cry more lol
>C-cope and seethe!
>Nothing is stopping you
>except when we write it out of your books, remove it from any artwork, smear it with historical revisionism, get it removed from stores on and offline, oversaturate awful zero-understanding parodies of it, and get you booted from game rooms and cons for running it
>and we would absolutely stop you from running it in your home if we had the power to, because we don’t want anything we don’t approve of to even exist
>But nobody is stopping you!
Inb4 you try to gaslight us that the last 12-15 years of your bullshit and gloating didn’t happen.
You are not entitled to have private companies cater to your tastes.
Maybe you aren't, but I am because my tastes are superior (source: me) and so everyone else has a moral obligation to cater to them, along with doing all the other stuff I say is extremely important but can't be bothered to do myself, such as attacking [OPPOSING SIDE], driving out [ETHNIC GROUP] and establishing a functional community based around [POLITICAL IDEOLOGY]. With me at the top, of course.
>I would simply... le avoid all le battles!
Is there anything more nogames than this?
>This is something modern players just don't get. They don't know the roots of d + d. They don't respect those roots.
Isn't it just about fun?
fun is a buzzword. When you give a man a choice he usually chooses wrong. A civilized society should point him in the direction of what is right.
>A civilized society should point him in the direction of what is right.
And who determines what is right?
When you understand that, you'll know everything.
You don't know, do you? There's just your own personal opinion that you're assuming is universal because you're conceited.
This.
Games were never about "fun" back in the good old days. They were about dour-faced men being forced at gunpoint to sit down at a table and describe how their filthy, hungry and equally dour-faced characters went into moldy holes in the ground, moved one inch per hour as they checked for traps, died to traps that were triggered by just looking for them and then got replaced by their identical brothers. And we liked it!
>When did d + d turn from a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons of a single barony for gold and glory, to a game about "diverse" capeshit superheroes saving the world?
Around the time Gary made homebrew rules to turn a table top war game into a fantasy game with monsters and fantasy races
You must be real fun at parties
>When did d + d turn from a game about gritty human men delving the filthy dungeons of a single barony for gold and glory, to a game about "diverse" capeshit superheroes saving the world?
It didn't: you're just imagining it. Just go back to your private game and ignore all the people trying to tell you otherwise.