When did you realise that universal systems aren’t that good and that systems actually matter?
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When did you realise that universal systems arent that good and that systems actually matter?
When did you realise that universal systems aren’t that good and that systems actually matter?
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>When did you realise that universal systems aren’t that good
Never played a universal system, none of them really have a great reputation.
>and that systems actually matter?
I don't get this meme, does anyone not believe that system matter? The people who insist on using 5e to play their political intrigue game aren't doing it cause they think systems don't matter, they mostly are just busy people who don't feel like learning a new system.
They're doing it because you don't need much of a "system" for political intrigue, and the more mechanics you use for those sort of things, the worse off the game is.
It's why all the social/politcal-focused RPGs suck shit and are niche products no one ever buys. The only ones that even have any notoriety whatsoever are ones like Amber Diceless, and mechanically that game brings forth interesting ideas in theory but terrible ideas in practice.
Rules are really only neccesary for settling disputes. How does magic work? Who hits who first, and how hard? Those are things you might need rules for. "How does the diplomat react when I call her a c**t?" is something where if there were rules for it, a prescribed reaction, it cheapens and weakens the entire system by reducing npcs to simple programs.
Get the chip off your shoulder already.
Social focused games without mechanics can work, but they are basically story games, which some people like, some people don't. The idea that a game is better for essentially outsourcing all conflict resolution to the DM, is a tough sell for me.
>all conflict
You missed an enormous amount of steps in reaching for that.
"Conflicts", ie., disputes, are what rules are meant to help arbitrate. But, it's not a matter of "PC vs. NPC" so much as it is a matter of "PC vs. PC vs. PC vs. GM," ie. helping resolve differences in opinion and interpretation at the table. If everyone could just agree on the outcome of any action, we wouldn't need any rules at all, and the GM would be able to get by with a book of fluff. Some groups are able to do exactly that, via freeform.
>but they are basically story games
All RPGs are story games. Even the crunchiest pure-combat simulators are story games. The trolls on this board trying to pretend otherwise are just doing it for attention and you're a fool to listen to them, or you're an even greater fool for pretending as such yourself.
You're inches away from convincing me you're really nothing but a troll yourself, so tread carefully with your next reply.
>They're doing it because you don't need much of a "system" for political intrigue, and the more mechanics you use for those sort of things, the worse off the game is.
Nope.
Exalted 3e has quite sophisticated social systems, and is better at political intrigue because it has them.
The idea that having no structure free flowing "well, whatever you want" is better for political intrigue than having actual systems the players can actually manipulate to proactively take action rather than hoping the GM lets them, is an idea only an absolutely brainfricked moron could hold.
>Durr hurr but what about bad systems!!!
What about them? You think there are no dogshit combat systems out there? Guess combat shouldn't have rules either.
>Exalted 3e has quite sophisticated social systems, and is better at political intrigue because it has them.
And, I'm out.
Sorry, but if that's what you were hoping to hinge your argument on, I can't consider your opinions to be anything but the most extreme outliers, incompatible with any threads of logic. God, what a shit system, in just about every conceivable metric.
Good luck.
>The idea that having no structure free flowing "well, whatever you want"
Even D&D has minimal social systems in its core, with more elaborate social systems that can be tacked on as the DM desires, including reputation systems and faction systems.
The idea is that the core rules concerning them are minimal, because they recognize that rules can be obtrusive to roleplaying and you don't need to roll for something every time you speak to someone. But, it does have social stats, social modifiers, dedicated social mechanics and abilities, and more if the DM decides that he wants more structure.
I really don't understand what windmill you're tilting at.
Universal systems are fine so long as you understand what an individual one is good at and I've always thought system matters.
No. Eat shit, moron.
>The people who insist on using 5e to play their political intrigue game aren't doing it cause they think systems don't matter, they mostly are just busy people who don't feel like learning a new system.
This is one of the things that piss me of the most about people getting into RPGs via D&D. They begin with a system that is actually one of the more complex and crunchy ones and are deadly convinced that any new game will require learning a tonne of shit, while in fact with 80% of other systems that are any decent or popular everything that you absolutely need to know to play can be summarised by the GM in like 5-15 minutes
>This is one of the things that piss me of
So, you're getting angry over nothing.
>everything that you absolutely need to know to play can be summarised by the GM in like 5-15 minutes
The same is true about D&D. I actually saw a DM get a group of brand new players up and running in the game within ten minutes just last weekend. He just had a stack of premade character sheets, explained the core mechanic, answered a few questions, and started the adventure. Sure, people had rules questions down the road, but they tended to be nuanced and specific to certain abilities.
What you're really just getting mad at is people liking a game you don't like, and playing something popular while you are a contrarian at heart.
>D&D is just as easy to learn as any other system!
>just have the DM do everything for you, pre-gen all the characters, and just tell players what to roll any when!
Why would you even post this without purposefully trying to undermine your own point?
>i need to hyperbolize in order to have any kind of argument, and still believe I have an argument!
Jesus christ you're a filthy shitposter.
Crying "shitposter" doesn't disprove the point. It just displays that you're overly emotionally invested in defending the honor and integrity of D&D whenever someone calls it into question.
>point
You dumbass.
If you need to use hyperbole to make a point, you don't have a point.
its a perfectly good point that plenty of other systems are easier or just as easy to learn as 5e. you are having a schizoid meltdown over the word pissed.
That's not a point.
The guy is getting mad because he says 5e is too hard to learn and it makes people think all RPGs are hard to learn, when, funnily enough, "everything that you absolutely need to know to play [5e] can be summarized by the GM in like 5-15 minutes."
Kind of moronic t admit to being enraged because you think a game is too hard to learn when it falls into the same criteria you exalt as ideal.
>"everything that you absolutely need to know to play [5e] can be summarized by the GM in like 5-15 minutes."
Yeah, but that's not really true at all, and like you've been saying, "If you need to use hyperbole to make a point, you don't have a point."
Except it's entirely true and I even watched it happen.
Go play a game and quit being a cancer on this board, you weird loser.
No, you didn't. You watched players learn how to roll a d20 and some of them learned the base mechanics of spellcasting. You didn't watch them learn how to weigh abilities against each other or understand any of the minutae of the game, nor did you watch them learn how to create characters.
>You didn't watch them learn how to weigh abilities against each other
Yes, yes they did. They compared their own abilities against their own, as well as against those of the other players. I don't even understand why you would even try to insist you know better than I do on what I saw, other than you're just some kind of jackass.
>understand any of the minutae
Good thing we're talking about "everything that you absolutely need to know to play," and not whatever nonsense purity fallacy you're trying to conjure up.
>nor did you watch them learn how to create characters.
Which isn't an essential part of the game, thanks to loads of premade characters available to them in various forms. All they had to do is say "I want to play a [class]" and bam, they were ready to go.
In most games, not just D&D, making a character can be quite time consuming. Even games without any rules whatsoever can find players spending a long time building their characters. But, what we're talking about, and these are not my own words,"everything that you absolutely need to know to play," and your insistence that they were not in fact playing the game makes it clear you have no interest in anything even resembling a fair argument.
Go on. Say one more word, and confirm for everyone that you are the last person to ever offer their opinion on what Is "playing a game."
>I don't even understand why you would even try to insist you know better than I do on what I saw
Because you are incompetent and untrustworthy.
Your own words, returned to you.
Thanks for confirming.
>Which isn't an essential part of the game
It absolutely is. Premade characters aren't actual characters, they're just NPCs with player stats. The heart and soul of any TTRPG is the party, and if it's abunch of pointless literallywhos taken from a module then you might as well not be playing the game because you've ruined the one thing TTRPGs still do better than video games.
>Which isn't an essential part of the game
oh your one of THOSE types
Prove me wrong.
Tell me why you need to know how to make a character to play a game that includes premade character sheets.
Try to do it without crying about hearts and souls and what not like some sort of bleeding heart homosexual who's realized he doesn't have any real argument if you can though. No True Scotsman fallacies will also be immediately rejected.
>Tell me why you need to know how to make a character to play a game that includes premade character sheets.
I never said you couldn't. I didn't even imply anything negative, why might you have thought as much from me?
What do you think about the type of person that would play premade characters anon?
Having done so plenty of times in the past myself, it's extremely convenient and a great way to jump into a new game. It's a way to actually learn about how the mechanics actually work in a game before building a character from scratch, and also saves time by not requiring any back-and-forth with the GM. While I definitely prefer to make my own characters, I can see the value in premade ones.
You know. Obvious basic shit.
That back-and-forth time you're describing is called "teaching them how to actually play the game" because the players did not read the book and did not learn the rules and have to be babied through their first session, and somehow this is your ideal argument for the ease of learning 5e as a system. This highly specific, moronic scenario you've cooked up as a perceived iron-clad defense against criticisms for the system you invest the majority of your self-worth in.
No, it's called "having the GM look over your character sheet and approve it or offer suggestions, opening a lengthy discussion about character creation before you've had a chance to play the game, rather than playing the game."
For frick's sake.
Look.
I get it.
You're a moronic troll. Saying dumb shit for attention is your way of life.
But this? These DESPERATE attempts at arguing, but with absolutely no substance whatsoever is pathetic.
Stick to just repeating what other trolls have said before, instead of trying to come up with brand new reasons to be mad about a game you don't even play and shouldn't be obsessing about. If this is all you're bringing to the table, all I can say is that you're not even giving me anything to argue with. You're just crying and wailing about literally anything you can for attention, all the way down to pretending there's something inherently wrong with premade characters.
Like I said, it's pathetic, even for a troll.
>pretending
Yeah yeah, we get it. You've embarrassed yourself again and now you're slinging insults and crying about trolls. Get new material, gay.
I've played 2 hour con games for systems I've never even been in the same room as the book for and had a perfectly good time. I did not learn how to play the game in that time. I followed instructions, did what I was told, and made an effort to keep the game flowing along smoothly because that's the polite thing to do in that situation. The reason this was so easy to do is because nearly all RPGs, at their most basic levels, are very simple and intuitive. Roll some dice, repeat the result aloud, guy in charge tells you what happens or asks a follow up question.
Actually learning a system and knowing how to play is a different matter entirely, especially if there isn't someone there who does know the game extensively to guide you through it. 5e is on the higher end of the learning curve when everything isn't already chosen for you and handed to you before the game starts.
>premade character sheets
>adventure
They were not playing the game.
I like when the game has tools for everything I may feel like using. You only use the parts you need in universal systems.
What in the world is that cover design
Really good, I say.
Generic and Universal
You just wanted to post AI slop, didn't you?
That’s art from the 1999 PlayStation game the Silver Case depicting the character Tetsugoru Kusabi. It is absolutely not AI-art unless Grashopper Manufacture somehow had access to some top secret NASA AI-art generator.
You're still listening to metal, aren't you?
The bad kind of universal systems are ones that just expect you to fill in a bunch of blanks, like FATE does, and then expects you to construct subsystems and additional features on your own. These tend to operate on the belief that the mechanics aren't as important as just sitting at the table and making shit up as you go. Like they took that extremely broad idea that you can just make a "complete game" with a notecard and a handful of d6s or even just a coin to flip, and that can turn into a story that's as good as the most epic multi-year games played with more complete systems.
Most of the time, this is simply not true. Constraints breed creativity. Narrowed focus gives way to a clearer understanding. For some people, they can manifest that constrained focus on their own. For most, having a vague concept or theme to follow leaves them at a total loss for how to even start playing the game, let alone running an entire campaign in that white void.
Those are two non-contradictionary statements. Why are you building a fake dilemma out of them?
great now tell my moronic players who unironically think we could play a systemless game long term
When I tried to run Big Eyes Small Mouth and realized it was hot steaming garbage. From that moment on I have refused to run universal/generic systems instead of specific ones.
>BUT BESM ISNT-
It is. It's a generic system that claims to be focused on anime but it's just Mutants and Masterminds 2e with a new coat of paint trying to be a generic anime system, when none of its mechanics (what few there actually are) work for anything speciifc.
Does you think that guy is actually scouring the board himself looking for any post that dares not to praise D&D or is he using bots?
This thread sucks
these threads always suck
I will when one is designed to do what I want to game. Until then, I will use the ones that at least work.