Which game design philosophy do you agree with?
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Which game design philosophy do you agree with?
Which game design philosophy do you agree with?
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none of them
miyazaki games have difficulty options.
This. Miyazaki is full of shit. You can't tell me someone playing magic or having 2-3 friends raping bosses and levels with him is the same experience as someone who just plays solo with a sword and just relying on pure melee and dodging. You can't tell me the former isn't easy mode.
The game is not designed around being naked with a lvl 1 character and only using a club.
Thats just self imposed challenge. You refuse to use anything that can help you beat the boss because you consider it "cheating"
Nobody said it was homosexual, but if you want to talk about what the game was designed around how about we start off with how Co-op in ER and Souls literally removes any incentive to learn the mechanics the whole game is based around. Seeing as how they're one dimensional ARPGs and all.
>You refuse to use anything that can help you beat the boss because you consider it "cheating"
Not even the nufans playing ER are this dishonest, this is a special breed of cope and dishonesty. You didn't beat the game.
The game gives you tools, you refuse to use them, then you complain the game is hard, in reality it wasnt, you are just too boneheaded to do anything but naked low vigor STR builds.
He’s not complaining that the game is hard, are you even reading his posts? Holy shit stop posting dude
No but hes buttblasted someone who has never played a Souls game beat it in "Easy mode" vs him struggling to beat bosses in his "Hard mode"
Reading comprehension.
They don't include a difficulty SELECTION, they want everyone to encounter the same challenge and then overcome that challenge in a way that suits them. The guy with the magic and the summons is having an easier experience "raping bosses" than the solo melee player, but the bosses are the same. That's what he's saying. That's his approach to difficulty modes and his response to requests for an explicit easy mode menu selection.
>They don't include a difficulty SELECTION,
Don't play dumb, Just because you're not choosing easy, normal, hard or very hard in the main menu doesn't mean that everyone gets to "encounter the same challenge".
By having 2-3 people summoned to destroy levels and bosses, it's the equivalent of SELECTING an easy mode. You are giving players the option to play the game in a way that offers no difficulty, just like how someone in a traditional game can choose easy mode in a menu on the title screen to have no difficulty.
They literally do encounter the same challenge. As in the actual obstacle. The ease of overcoming that obstacle is what changes. For example, in all the early Elden Ring thread, there was this WebM of morgott doing a long combo. Discussion would be worse if he only did that on hard mode, and some players don't see it or get to succeed in surving it. Theres no hard morgott or medium morgott or easy morgott, everyone fights the same morgott. This, Miyazaki thinks, is preferable to a difficulty selection.
I'm not trying to argue here, I'm just relaying the actual meaning of the words that you read and misunderstood. That's what he said.
moron
>get called out for poor reading comprehension
>instead of admitting your mistake, double down by continuing to fail at comprehending what was said
moron.
It's a role-playing game. Obviously people will have easier or harder encounters based on the ROLE they choose.
Base game with a learning curve that gets the player to do increasingly complex and difficult things and then a harder difficulty that doesn't have a learning curve.
With the exception of nu-summoning and just reading optimal builds online this does require more stringent engagement with the game beyond just the menu navigation of turning the difficulty down.
You need to be cognizant of a mechanic and work towards using it in order to make your experience easier.
>You need to be cognizant of a mechanic and work towards using it in order to make your experience easier.
Yeah man, look at all this hard work and knowledge required to make this playstyle be viable.
You still have to time your spells properly, pick the right one for the task, all while managing stamina and mana otherwise you'll get flattened just like everyone else. This is a game where every enemy lunges towards you if you're more than 12ft away.
I swear people look at Comet Azure compilations and think that's the entire game.
You genuinely don't have to time any delayed launch spell.
esl-kun hath spoken
What's wrong with his sentence other than lacking capitalization?
Is what he's saying if you were able to read
This one
Right? Just face frick everything with no consequence. Credits will roll if you learn the mechanics or not.
Agreed. The entire first playthrough being a tutorial is great.
from left to right:
>el steve jobs de los videojuegos
>el hideo kojima de los videojuegos
>el david lee roth de los videojuegos
>el benicio del toro de los videojuegos
best post itt
Why are spaniards so mentally ill?
Bravo, La Creatividad
Speak American you fricking commie
MUY BASADO
>Kojima
Slowly turning into the David Cage of Japan.
3rd guy from the left is right. Miyazaki makes no damn sense. Elden ring did NOT bring the same level of discussion or enjoyment.
Why can't americans think link miyazaki or or whoever the third is
>whoever the third is
That's the famous oatmeal cookie of game design/
This hack made devil's third
never heard of it.
>wii u
lmao you have only yourself to blame.
The hack's also shilling for gacha and NFTs now.
that hack has only made one (ngb) and half (ng2) good games in his whole career.
I never play games on hard because 90% of the time, it just nerfs my damage and buffs npc damage.
the two in the middle
Most people don't even complete Miyazaki's games, so the experience or discussion is not "equal" at all. They wasted their money is all they did.
Different modes are obviously superior, so you can dab on those who claim to have beaten a game, but not on the highest difficulty.
I think games like Cuphead do it right. If you play easy mode, the game basically withholds content from you. In that game's easy mode, IIRC, bosses don't have their final phases.
I also like it in Ninja Gaiden Black when the game basically insults the player for playing on easy by forcing them to wear a pink ribbon the entire game and to have the game's supporting NPC talk shit to you instead of respecting you.
>I also like it in Ninja Gaiden Black when the game basically insults the player for playing on easy by forcing them to wear a pink ribbon the entire game and to have the game's supporting NPC talk shit to you instead of respecting you.
That's silly too and just ruins aesthetics. Just withhold cool items or something.
>and just ruins aesthetics.
It does...for the shitter who plays on easy mode. And that's the point.
Just like how Itagaki (that game's director) says in the OP picture, people who play on easy mode deserve no respect or to even be treated as human beings.
They deserve to have their experience ruined.
I don't mind poking at other players myself in the hopes that they improve, but I guess I'm more in the Kojima camp as far as designers go. I especially wish people got their money's worth and can even complete the games they buy.
I disagree, I think buying a game doesn't entitle you to completing it.
I disagree with Itagaki, on the grounds of just get rid of easy mode completely instead of being spiteful. There's nothing wrong with difficult games, but if you're going to make a difficult game presumably intended to appeal to players who want difficult games, and give it an easy mode to bait in casuals only to insult them, ultimately you're only playing yourself at the end.
people who play on easy mode deserve to be insulted. they don't even have the balls to play a video game on the intended difficulty, they certainly don't deserve the devs or anyones respect. more developers should insult their audience directly for doing dumb shit, it's based as frick.
It's supposed to encourage them to play on higher difficulties.
But I guess the limp-wristed people of the modern era thought otherwise and took it personally. You're supposed to be "oh haha the game made fun of me. Time to git gud" not "the game made fun of me? I WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS!!!"
I guess he just likes dabbing on casulz that much.
>Just like how Itagaki (that game's director) says in the OP picture, people who play on easy mode deserve no respect or to even be treated as human beings.
he then did a 180 turn on this opinion and made ng2's acolyte difficulty just an easy mode with no ridiculing the player, and attested hiself in interviews he wanted more poeple to enjoy the game.
Miyazaki's and the guy to his right
Agree completely. For me, if you play the game on anything below what the game labels as "Normal", the game should absolutely tell you "It didn't count".
>by forcing them to wear a pink ribbon the entire game and to have the game's supporting NPC talk shit to you instead of respecting you.
Holy based. Never even knew this.
Yep. The girl who is supposed to be your support ends up mocking you throughout the game.
I love it when games don't let you beat them on easy and just kick you out halfway through. Absolutely based whenever I see it happen.
That's what new game plus is for.
different difficulty modes
Itagaki, always and forever.
>The testers said 'this is too difficult', I made it even more difficult.
I want to like Miyazaki's philosophy, but all his games are unbalanced multiplayer dumpster fires
dork souls man is full of shit but taken at face value his statement is the best
If games where you just kind of walk around and learn a story is protected under the merit of being "art". then video games with high difficulty should be as well.
Don't argue with me or I'll frick one of you at random.
You're absolutely correct. If a creator makes a difficult game, that is their artistic intent. This insane idea that "art" ends where gameplay begins is ignorant of the truth of what art is.
Ignorant to what a "videogame" is as well, I don't know where people got the idea that videogames are more "artsy" the more they resemble movies lol
Video gmae are good as long as you have a great experience with it be it through high difficulty, great visuals or great storytelling
miyazaki
there is a default that the game is designed around. all other settings are afterthgouths. that's why harder difficulties usually just turn enemies into bullet sponges and vice versa.
developers don't have the time to fully balance and properly implement multiple difficulties, so picking anything than the intended experience just ruins it for the player.
the square enix way
I agree with this, now that I'm an adult I don't have unlimited time to play vidya. Grinding or fighting the same boss over and over is not only boring, it's something I literally don't have the time to do any more.
Maybe just stop playing vidya instead of ruining it for everybody else, gramps
Do you actually enjoy grinding?
I unironically agree, death to the Korean style 24 hours per level better level 50 times for new content model.
he literally doesnt do this. stop posting the bs quote
>Everyone is the same
>Bosses want you to dance
>There is no game
I agree with this. Video games are not my job and I have shit to do. We need yo stop with 80 hour minimum for content. Just let me engage with the piece and move on. Also any dev that designs a game around forcing the player to play is insecure with their gameplay loop. If the game was fun from the get go the player would continuously engage with it
>Also any dev that designs a game around forcing the player to play is insecure with their gameplay loop.
That's not what he's talking about. With MMOs the devs want to have people playing all the time because of paid subscriptions.
>never completed the first stage of pacman
nah nonono absolute fricking bullshit, and I refuse to believe that.
Kojima's statement here is reasonable. It can be misinterpreted, if you don't think about it, as "we made Death Stranding very easy because we want it to be like a movie", but of course that's not what he said. I like the idea that some random old lady that never played video games but loves a particular actor can have that actor's video game appearances among their DVD collection. I've tried Death Stranding's Very Easy mode and yeah, if I just wanted to see Mads Mikkelson I could certainly reach his part of the game without needing to learn to play video games.
That's moronic, why not just watch a gameplay on youtube or, idk, A MOVIE with Mads Mikkelson in it instead?
how is it possible to make a game easier than the first stage of pacman?
It's a mix between Miyazaki and Itagaki. I like what Miyazaki is saying by not having a difficulty setting and overcoming fights in your own specific way, but I also don't like a lot of the design philosophy in Elden Ring. Some playstyles are just blatantly superior to other playstyles in large sections of the game, so his way of suggesting a unique playstyle to have a discussion around feels weak.
Itagaki's point of view is kind of brutal, but I like that. If you play the game on easy mode, I think some aspects of the game can be removed to give the player a less engaging, but more casual experience. Metal Gear Rising on easy auto parries for you. A couple of the older Touhou games remove the final stage entirely if you decide to play on easy. I don't think easy mode should be removed, but I do think there should be significant differences between easy and whatever the developers want to do for normal/hard.
That's the point Miyazaki was making. Some playstyles are just stronger; compromising the challenges of the game to give the player an easier time is a silly proposition when the game gives you ample tools to change your character in such a way that it becomes easier instead.
Gatekeeping made sense in arcades when games were played on a quarter by quarter basis. But shitting on people who shell out $50-70 and not even allowing them to finish games is fricking theft.
No it's not. You're paying for access to the game, beating it is on you.
The purpose of a game is not to show you its entire story, it is to present you a challenge that you overcome. By letting you skip the challenge, the point is defeated.
Stories on their own can be a puzzle to solve. Locking it behind glorified quicktime events, so certain gaymers don't get too mad, is just a bad practice.
If you just want to engage with a story, read a book or watch a movie.
>all gameplay is "glorified quicktime events"
Not in the fricking slightest, you moron. Everyone who actually gives a frick about GAMES buys them for the GAMEplay.
I buy VIDEOgames for the VIDEO
Books or movies aren't interactive. You seem to think that only combat counts as gameplay.
lol Zoomoid
>I buy VIDEOgames for the VIDEO
Then buy a movie instead.
>You seem to think that only combat counts as gameplay
You seem to think that only combat can gatekeep you from the end of a game. What about puzzles? Strategy?
>Then buy a movie instead.
Go buy some cards if you want to play a game and don't sully my cinematic experiences with shitty quicktime events...
>What about puzzles?
I love puzzles and well constructed stories and worlds (which are rare in video games) are a form of puzzle
>cinematic experience
Are you ACgay pretending to be the kind of moron who doesn't exist outside your head? Games are games first. Cinema comes second. That doesn't mean there can't be story, but games exist to present a challenge.
>well constructed stories and worlds (which are rare in video games) are a form of puzzle
First of all, no, and secondly, no. Puzzles gate you from finishing the game.
Ads gate you from finishing a video. Is clicking the skip button gameplay?
This broken understanding of the medium is why even mediocre walking simulators do well.
There is so much potential to VIDEOgames that aren't just toys for manchildren.
It's not at all a "toy for manchildren" for a game to actually be interesting to play. You're not THIS guy, are you?
>Ads gate you from finishing a video. Is clicking the skip button gameplay?
Ads on a video are not a game, there's no lose condition and you'll get to finish the video even if you don't skip the ad.
>here is so much potential to VIDEOgames that aren't just toys for manchildren.
You're highlighting the wrong world. In videogames, the GAME part is the most important.
>there's no lose condition
If the ad plays in full you lose.
>you'll get to finish the video even if you don't skip the ad
You didn't finish the video if you didn't internalize 68% of the content.
This all sounds like some regurgitation of game makers toolkit. This arbitrary gatekeeping of content is pure fricking cancer. In some years when your time gets more precious, you look back on these ''games'' that waste your time, with pure disgust, mark my words.
>If the ad plays in full you lose.
No, you don't, the video will still play after the ad is over
>You didn't finish the video if you didn't internalize 68% of the content.
What the frick are you talking about? How does an ad stop you from internalizing the content of the video?
filthy ad watcher
It's always good to see a fellow Dark Souls 2/ Elden Ring enjoyer who can ignore all the crap parts the games throw at you, because the good parts are still there for you to enjoy after all. Kill your darlings my ass, quality control is for pussies.
>ignore all the crap parts the games throw at you, because the good parts are still there for you to enjoy after all
Unironically, yes
>Games have to be like movies or else they're just "toys for manchildren"
movies are for manchildren as well, normal people is out there, watching sports, getting drunk and having sex
>Books or movies aren't interactive. You seem to think that only combat counts as gameplay.
lol Zoomoid
No I don't, but I also don't think just walking around the game world counts much for "interactivity".
>VIDEO
Then buy a video without the "game" part, dumbass
A videogame is like the score of music, while the console or pc is a piano. It's up to you to perform the piece. And, just like with music, if you can't do it yourself there's always youtube.
Should've stuck to f2p mobile garbage then
Kojimas difficulty settings are the best in the business. In MGS2 not only do enemies change behavior, you also get a new layout for bombs.
European extreme is one of my few fond gaming memories.
Difficulty ranging from ultra easy to ultra hard modes but you can't select them and it changes at random each time you start a new game for realism.
Agree with the 2nd guy. Everyone should have the same experience. Then add really hard mode for people who want to keep playing
Somewhere between 2 and 3.
I either want games to be designed around a single difficulty or have a proper hard mode that's available from the get-go.
There's no need for an easy mode.
It depends on what you want to do as a designer with each individual game. If you want as many people (morons who need to git gud) to enjoy the story, add an easy mode. If you don't, then design your game around one difficulty mode.
Normal mode everyone can beat and hard mode for experienced players, thats about it. When i was younger and had reflexes i would fight tooth and nail how games need to be harder but now i just feel like the more people can enjoy my hobby the better
Itagaki, but I dont respect anybody who plays below Master Ninja.
3rd guy from the left
but then you beat the hardest difficulty and get the best unlocks and then you lose motivation to play the game anymore
Third guy from left is factually correct no discussion there, also every game should have some sort of difficulty selection including a theater mode where the game just plays by itself but you'll get penalized with less content obviously and maybe a pink ribbon like NG, even though Miyazaki denies it, he cleverly implements a difficulty selection option with an in-game mechanic designed not to catch, but not to loose the attention of casuals and zoomers with low dopamine needs if they get frustated With the same enemy, but also designed to fool some people by making them think they're not altering the difficulty mode.
>Third guy from left
Yeah it's Itagaki, he made NG's pink ribbon
Kamiya does what Miyazaki wants with Bayo and DMC while keeping the difficulties, albeit in an annoying way. You're pretty much forced to clear a difficulty if you want to access higher difficulties, forcing everyone to have the same factual enemy difficulty.
Oatmeal
guy on the far right was responsible for almost killed PSO2 and is currently partly responsible for NGS bleeding to death btw
difficulty options are a meme
I liked that Sakurai talked a lot about difficulty before.
Also Iwata had a funny way of looking at it. People who design the games are a lot of the time, good at them, so they make them with difficulty for the devs in mind, not the fans; by the time the fans get the game, it's sometimes too difficult and the labor is intense. Like a lot of the Japanese games which are notoriously difficult, it too resembles the problem of disconnection.
>People who design the games are a lot of the time, good at them
Is this true though? I mean they know how to play them, but like among FGC game creators they said at a round table once that Harada was the best in their respective game and he's mid at best.
Kojimbo. Difficulty should be up to the player. Miyazaki already added this with summons in Elden Ring.
wtf does the last one mean I don't speak jrpg
Where do these homosexuals even come from?
It's always morons like this who think any semblance of challenge is "gatekeeping" (challenge being a... QTE, apparently) or the exact opposite with people who think harder = better
I pick Spelunky
The Souls games aren't hard if you're the least bit clever. Most things can be cheesed and the AI is actually pretty dumb. Coupled with blood stains and player messages, the game is challenging, but completable by anyone that actually plays video games.
which ever one results in a fun game
Imagine using cats unironically
3
Depends on the genre. In general, Miyazaki is right but when it comes to movie games, Kojima has a point. Know the audience for your game and market to them, the issue is that the audience that devs are trying to go after now is "everyone".
Look at Stranger of Paradise or the Wo Long Demo compared to Nioh 2, a lot of complexity is removed in order to appeal to a wider audience and the games are multiplats because they want to appeal to everyone. Elden Ring is another good example because the NPC summoning gives players a much easier time than in other Souls games. And that worked out for them sales wise, making it more accessible led to more sales.
But it sucks because I want autismo games designed to appeal to me so seeing my autismo series slowly transition away from pandering to me and pandering to the masses sucks. I can still enjoy these omnipandering games but not as much as the previous ones.
Autismo gaems r fun
the endgame of capitalism is turning everything into water
>he doesn't know
Oatmeal cookie-san made the 2 greatest action games ever produced by man, so he wins by default.
?
there is room for different approaches to game design and difficulty in particular. not every game needs to work the same way
Yeah, no shit. But see
Devs only do what "works" for mass appeal
>no difficulty selector as per usual
>no magic
>no summons
>no minmaxing
>no leveling
>no leveling your weapon
>have sword
>have shinobi tool
>have skill
I fricking love Sekiro
>no paid dlc
>no mtx
>a final boss that filtered people so hard they paid other people to beat it for them so their friends wouldn't think that they're frauds
a near perfect game.
I don't get it. Isshin was a challenge, sure, but he was nowhere near the hardest boss in the game.
he has too many mechanics and phases for casuals. he's a culmination of everything you learned up until that point in 1 fight and requires you to not frick up too many times. plus they die on gen and get so tilted that they play like shit, keep dying on gen, and then give up.
>People literally stumbled threw the whole fricking game just to job to genichiro phase of the Isshin fight
People that do this are utter fricking morons and have zero business playing the game to begin with.
>Through* not threw
Sorry for the typo.
it's okay they can have someone else play it for them.
>no leveling your weapon
>no leveling
>no magic
>no difficulty selector as per usual
This entire post is bait, right?
Uhhh, Attack Power??? Go fight Lady Butterfly at the start of the game with only like 1-2 Attack Power and then come back when you're near the end of the game with like 15-16 Attack Power and tell me with a straight face that there's no difference in your character's vitality damage and posture damage.
The Dancing Dragon Mask allows you to farm skill points to give you further Attack Power levels.
Your ninja prosthetics break the game just as much as magic. See webm related.
You can choose difficulty by having Demon Bell on or off and, on NG+, whether or not you play with a charm.
>the only difficulty you can choose is demon Bell and NG+
>you can choose to make it even harder
>claims that ti's a difficulty selector in the traditional sense of the word
Top kek anon, did you get filtered by Isshin? Someone was ass blasted the best From game.
What does the last dude even mean? That other classes are easier than Hero?
Enabling kojima was a mistake. He should have been contained to small-budget projects so that he could flex his creativity without having the option to jack off over celebrities.
I mean I think it just depends on a game
there's no reason difficulty options across all genres has to be uniform
This one.
Itsuno always seems like such a likeable and sensible dude. Would love to have a beer and shoot the shit with him.
Knowing that is was my frickup makes me more angry than some janky BS. It's along the lines of "fricking hell, why can't I get the timing right on Lady Butterfly's grapple? Again? it's easy, why am I reacting too early? AGAIN? GODDAMNIT FRICKING PISS I HATE YOU." Anger at bullshit that I don't attribute to myself is more exasperation than rage. "yeah frick you, this game is shit" then proceed to browse Ganker or fap.
No reason to throw a controller though. Just cool off doing something else if you are getting that heated. Controllers are delicate and expensive these days.
That's why it's way worse when it's not your fault. When it's your fault you take it to heart and want to keep playing and learn to do shit correctly. When it's the game's fault you think "what's the point of getting good at this when I can still lose because of some bullshit anyway?"
I was just reacting to the "throw a the controller" line. If it's meant metaphorically, like "tossed the controller to the side", then sure dying to jank is far more likely to get me to "throw the controller"
Knowing I've been playing games my entire life and getting dunked on shit I should be able to do with my eyes closed is what would send me into a frothing rage, and make me more likely to actually throw a controller, but I haven't had that poor of impulse control since I was a teen.
I agree that it being the sole responsibility of the player for losing is better, and is far more engaging (obviously, since being that mad means I am very engaged), than dying to rng or some horseshit out of left field, but that knowledge doesn't make it any less frustrating.
the oatmeal cookie
I say include easy mode but you have to unlock it after finish the game in expert level.
Miyazaki. Game has a baseline difficulty that doesn't change but there's in-game tools to help mitigate that. That or the DMC model of unlocking difficulties as you beat the game.
miyazaki
>try yourself first and then use some help if needed
encourages people to at least try while also not being frustrating to normal people. "Gamers" can always play without help
>when some peasant movie-lover says that I'm not having fun because Terraria and Tetris and Pac-Man don't have enough story, while they're waiting for their 50 hour cutscene to end so they can be lctured about climate change and gender politics
Who is that last guy and what is he even saying?
Fumito Ueda
There's nothing wrong was easy modes. Here. I'll prove it.
Translating your weebshit games into English so you weebshits can play them and know what the frick is going on is no different from making a boss slightly easier to beat. It's all about accessibility.
pso2 episode 5 guy
Kojima now is just his shadow from the time of European Extreme
My favorite is "Multiple Difficulties with Tangible Differences", so I guess Itagaki but I don't see the point of insulting the player on lower difficulties when instead rewarding the player with new things on higher difficulties is a better tactic.
Positive Encouragement > Negative Encouragement
Does it make you feel like a big man to be able to lord your gaming superiority over casuals?
>he is intimidated by people who play games better than he can.
>so he equates being better with manhood, which is le bad
imagine showing your hand like this.
People still think that summoning another player to help fight a boss and having its AI crap out is a valid way to beat it? They really should have given the bosses new moves depending on the amount of targets but I doubt they'd be smart enough to handle it
>They really should have given the bosses new moves depending on the amount of targets
Then that means that people who prefer to beat bosses solo are missing out on content
Personally I think there should be 3 difficulties always.
Easy for beginners and kids so that they can get used to video games.
Normal which is the standard difficulty 99% of people should play and what the game is designed around.
Hard which is for autismos who’ve played the gam so many times normal has become boring for them.
game dev here, anons my game gather literally 0 interest of the people i'm considering killing myself i know nothing is gonna change and i have no strength to keep working in my videogame.
also i have a serious problem talking with someone else about my suicidal thoughts
>my game gather literally 0 interest of the people
If it's a passion project then does it matter? Frick what anyone else wants, make the game you want to make. Just by releasing it you'll have done more to achieve your ambitions than most of the pissants in the world.
It's ok. People had zero interest in demon souls/dark souls until year later. Now look at it.
"There is no such thing as difficulty because every class is designed around the successor class called hero" holy based
Anything but Kojimbo.