>halo >real fps
it spawned a never ending clone of moronic run and gun with a full auto AR homosexualry like cod and battlefield
if anything the industry would be significantly better off if that shit never happened
The fact that people got upset about you not knowing post-2009 TF2 weapons shows how young the posters here are. To anyone that reads this, if you played TF2 post-Sniper vs Spy update then you're playing trash.
Isn't the Vaccinator the only one that's a real problem?
The Scorch Shot is clearly the best secondary for Pyro, but that class is still terrible. Instead of nerfing that, just buff everything else.
Genuinely, they could undo the scorch shot problem overnight, if they rolled back the really stupid bullshit they put in to stop youtubers and comp players from dying to pyros.
All the rest is whatever.
Wrangler can be completely countered by using the enforcer/shooting the engineer
Kunai is countered by not getting next to the spy clearly abusing interp >A pyro that can't airblast
And everyone has a melee so the vaccinator really isn't that big of an issue, but even then, enforcer.
Literally nobody cared about the diamondback until they nerfed the ambassador >But I-
Yes, even you about to reply to this post.
I am under no delusion that Eric will ever roll back breaking every Pyro primary, and honestly I'd rather they not set a precedent that they ARE trying "rebalance" updates again, even if it comes with the baggage that every pyro is going to be using the scorch shot, or that the baby face's blaster and Sandman have no real point to equip.
>if they rolled back the really stupid bullshit they put in to stop youtubers and comp players from dying to pyros.
God I hate what they did to pyro so much. The flame particles still barely work, the new airblast feels like an inconsistent wet fart, and the degreaser does so little damage I sometimes feel the syringe gun must out DPS it. Oh well.
>I sometimes feel the syringe gun must out DPS it. Oh well.
I say this with full sincerity
A. The Syringe gun does more damage than 90% of the community realizes
B. Yes, it does outdamage the current flamethrower.
Are you seriously trying to argue that the Direct Hit which requires a straight line of sight to the sentry that you're shooting at
Is better than the enforcer which ALSO needs a straight line of sight to what you're shooting at?
>Wrangler can be completely countered by using the enforcer/shooting the engineer
As soon as you fire one shot at the Engineer or the Sentry, he's going to turn on you with two Miniguns and a rocket launcher all combined in one weapon with a boosted fire rate, splash damage, AND aim assist.
Wrangler. It makes Engineer the most broken thing in the game on defense bar none, able to tank hundreds and hundreds of damage and shoot enemies who are trying to corner-peek your Sentry (which is meant to be the balancing weakness of Sentries).
It's fricking stupid and its only purpose is to create extremely oppressive defensive holds. And what does Engineer pay to get it? The Pistol, a sidearm you rarely use anyway.
Remove the damage absorption shield and boosted fire rate and just leave the manual control part.
Vaccinator isn't a problem, it's beneficial for the game. It counters class stacking to encourage varied team comps, counters cheating Snipers, counters Phlog Pyro spam, and encourages players to use very simple teamwork to beat it (stop trying to 2v1).
The problem is with Medic himself, he's overpowered. Unfortunately the game is built around that.
>And what does Engineer pay to get it? The Pistol, a sidearm you rarely use anyway.
I frequently play battle-engie and the pistol is fun to harass people people with from the sidelines. Sometimes you can bait people into chasing you for a lulzy shotgun/widowmaker + mini sentry combo
Let me rephrase; you're rarely using the Pistol when you want to do something that another class can't do better.
Also, Wrangler can harass people from the sidelines too, you pop down a mini and wrangle and get functionally infinite range, higher dps and no need to reload. And aim assist.
Let me rephrase; you're rarely using the Pistol when you want to do something that another class can't do better.
Also, Wrangler can harass people from the sidelines too, you pop down a mini and wrangle and get functionally infinite range, higher dps and no need to reload. And aim assist.
In defense of the Wrangler, it is the only real way an engie has of fighting back against a sniper. Without it, they are helpless against any sniper out of sentry range. Scout's have Bonk, Soldiers have Direct Hit, Pyro's have Flare Gun/Scorch Shot, Demo's can carry a shield at the expense of the stickybomb launcher, Heavy's have the Fists of Steel, and Medic's have the crossbow. Everyone else either gets a good long-range weapon or something to improve their defense. What does the engie have? The fricking Pomson?
depends
Phlog, scorch shot and diamondback are terrible design-wise. They're absolute crutch weapons, awful to play against and braindead to play with. They're not exactly imbalanced because they're on weak classes, but they still shouldn't exist in their current forms. The game is better off without them.
The Wrangler and Vaccinator are both genuinely overpowered. They require some skill, yes, but you can pretty much lockdown any casual server with good use of them by yourself, with no real counterplay possible.
The kunai isn't either, it's a modestly strong but skill dependent weapon on a weak class, the only reason for it to be on this list is people's natural butthurt about spy. "oh my god he stabbed me and then didn't instantly disintegrate afterwards, please nerf", etc.
>They require some skill, yes, but you can pretty much lockdown any casual server with good use of them by yourself, with no real counterplay possible.
Wrong. Counterplay to vaccinator: >Play a class with two damage types eg soldier, pyro, engineer, so you can cut the duration of the vacc in half >Use melee damage to make vacc totally useless, this works best for classes like market gardener soldier, demoknight, and spy >Juggle them with explosive damage or airblasts >use bonk to make yourself invincible or fists of steel to make yourself insanely tanky >Follow a teammate who has a different damage type. For example, a heavy and soldier, whose combined dps will exceed the healing per second that the medic can provide, and they will win the fight even if the med pops both damage resists
Vaccinator actually has more counterplay than stock Ubercharge, where your options are "run away, juggle, or die"
>Play a class with two damage types eg soldier, pyro, engineer, so you can cut the duration of the vacc in half >Use melee damage to make vacc totally useless, this works best for classes like market gardener soldier, demoknight, and spy >Juggle them with explosive damage or airblasts >use bonk to make yourself invincible or fists of steel to make yourself insanely tanky
These are all bad solutions in practice. The only real answer is to go with another player, which makes sense since a combo is two players anyway.
>These are all bad solutions in practice
They are all fantastic solutions in practice that work, which is why the majority of Medic mains default to using stock, not Vaccinator. And it's not like they aren't willing to use unlocks, as every med uses Ubersaw over stock.
SS isn’t even that good. The whole purpose of it is to give pyro a flare that can stun a bit and so he can weaken targets before the flamethrower can kill. Neither were problems before but since they nerfed afterburn, airblast, combos and flamethrower damage he needs a reliable weapon for afterburn and for stunning at close range since all his other options got gutted. Soldier and sniper are classes with actual problems where everything works for you so if anything needs needs it’s them. Though I’d rather all classes be roughly on par like in 2012 and that they buff all old stuff than more nerfs
i still can't fricking believe the shit pyro got >meant to be close range ambush specialist >give him a jetpack that barely functions on any maps but when it does your entire team ignores him and die to him every 20 seconds >phlog crits basically killing my entire team because they ignore the fact the phlog pyro exists only to die to him for the 4th fricking time >meanwhile puff and sting is dead in the water, literally nerfed into oblivion to the point i haven't seen it used in 2-3 years
but yeah, jetpack man and confirmed criticals are actually bullshit if your team is brain dead, they just keep dying to the same shit constantly
morons will die to pyro no matter how bad he is and will always b***h and complain he needs more nerfs. He’s the only class who has had everything gutted except health, hitbox and movement speed. They even changed his flamethrower particle graphics to give enemies more of a chance.
>The Scorch Shot is clearly the best secondary for Pyro
I have to disagree, the normal flaregun and Detonator are far more useful. One can give you an insane burst of 90 damage (two flare shots on the same squishy = dead squishy), the other gives you great mobility without having to forfeit your secondary weapon altogether (frick the thermal thruster).
All the Scorch Shot does is annoy Snipers, afterburn is really easy to get rid of
Frick off, sniper main. >Detonator
You have to be extremely quick as Pyro, and there is literally no time to play your little timing game with the detonator. >Flare gun
It's strong, yes, but it's extremely difficult to land and the punishment for missing is too great.
You don't use the Scorch as a damage tool but rather as a gap closer and irritation.
If you're so shit at timing stuff that you can't use the Detonator you have a skill issue, and its main use is flare jumping >but you can flare jump with the scorch shot too
The scorch shot's flarejump is pathetic in comparison and is rarely useful >flare gun is difficult to land
Skill issue, again
Even with that the damage is low compared to other projectiles with no fall off like huntsman, normal flares, crockets, etc. It is also slow enough to be airblasted and just like other flares another pyro with a shotgun or the other anti fire stuff in the maps counters it. Also elevation like soldier.
The biggest misunderstanding of that weapon is that people see it as a damage source, it's not, it there to cause irritation.
[...]
All those "ways" mostly need a slot, a medic, a dispenser or a medpack. If all the enemy players equip stuff to counter you, then your team will have an advantage.
[...]
Stop talking bullshit. Every vacc pocket gets fricking annihilated once he leaves his cozy area the nest and attempts to dive into the enemy team.
Only if the map has no water, health kits, objectives that heal, no friendly classes that have good secondaries or pyros, no engineer, no dispenser, etc. pyro doesn’t have the mobility to take advantage of the fire at range anyway, every class can just run.
The biggest misunderstanding of that weapon is that people see it as a damage source, it's not, it there to cause irritation.
The trade off is low damage >but afterburn
Every single class has a way to put it out or mitigate the effect and tons of map things do the same.
All those "ways" mostly need a slot, a medic, a dispenser or a medpack. If all the enemy players equip stuff to counter you, then your team will have an advantage.
>my team has diverse damage types
Oh no, the vac medic will have to use two charges instead of only one, too bad he has 2 other charges left and takes 10 seconds to regain one lmao
Stop talking bullshit. Every vacc pocket gets fricking annihilated once he leaves his cozy area the nest and attempts to dive into the enemy team.
Fricking with them on range maybe? Slowing down single spies/snipers who attempt to flee but out of your primary range maybe?
8 months ago
Anonymous
>fricking them on range maybe
Which all other flare guns can do >Slowing down single spies/snipers who attempt to flee
Why do that when you can kill them with the Flare Gun or charge at them with the Detonator?
>Every vacc pocket gets fricking annihilated once he leaves his cozy area the nest
Found your issue, you play with shitters that read that the vacc is OP and get flustered when they have to juggle more than one damage type
Short Circuit reeks so much. You can just tell the kind of person that makes the choice to be the Short Circuit b***h of their team over all other classes.
Combine a couple SC Engies on the cart with a few Heavy-Vacc Medic combos and you have the single most annoying and difficult to counter tactic in the game.
>its perfectly fine for an entire teams worth of damage to be negated so hard by such a simple low skill method
seriously have a nice day if you believe this.
Am I reading you right, you're seriously proposing Demo kritz as a counter to SC and Vacc? Fricking lmao.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Kritz
I said uber >You're seriously proposing demo... as a counter to SC and Vaccinator
No I was just highlighting how moronic what you were saying was.
Inadvertently you've actually stated the most plausible solution to get rid of Vaccinator medics, heavies, and short circuit engineers squatting on the cart except maybe a couple third degree pyros.
I agree with you, but that doesn't change what I said. If I'm not playing heavy, there's no one on the server playing heavy.
Heavy needs your team to not be room temp IQ window lickers, if your team is all just instantly dying, getting confused and lost then Heavy won't work you'll be overwhelmed at all times and don't have the moment options to do anything about it.
If the team is good, snipers and spies are being dealt with, medic is spreading heals, other classes are fighting with you then Heavy is really fun as he draws a lot of attention away from your other power classes to make plays.
Good sniper on the other team that can't be deal with? Heavy is unplayable
This
They need to rework it again and make it so that the projectile removal has to go through a Cow Mangler charge animation and only works at close range like it used to
I think it'd be cool if instead of deleting projectiles it just slowed them (and maybe reduced power a bit)
spam enough for their speed to hit 0 and they fall to the ground
That would be too difficult with TF2's spaghetti code, plus the general lack of interest in Valve at doing work on the game that still makes them money
Better to just change short circuit so you can't pickup metal from payloads/dispensers, and leave it at that
>I think that a scout not being able to find a healthpack in 6 seconds is arguably even more common than getting a crit with melee (15% of the time) which is what you need for stock to be worth it over shiv.
Lmao no
Stock is already worth more than shiv by default because 2 stock hits = a kill right now when you really fricking need it because that scout is gonna kill you. Meanwhile you need like 3 shiv hits +5 seconds of bleed. Lmao forget it bro. You're already dead. >Then you give up SMG
If you're running SMG you should always run stock instead. Because stock hit + SMG is a faster kill than shiv hit + SMG. >you may not even live to get the first hit off at all
Bro bushwacka only gives fire vulnerablity. That doesn't matter. If a pyro gets in close and you whip out the shiv you're actually more dead then if you had the bushwacka + jarate. You're not gonna do shit with the shiv, but you might oneshot him with Jarate + bushwacka.
If it's survival you want the shiv is always a detrimental pick since it takes longer to kill and thus gives the enemy more chances to kill you.
>They're not weird scenarios, etc.
If you're near your team then the Scout is never going to get near you anyways which means the shiv is wasted because the stock kukri is better vs Spy.
If you're not near you team you're near a health/ammo pack because you need that. The scout will kill you (because you can't defend yourself due to shit damage) and pick up the health pack.
Also, keep in mind. All of this BS you're saying applies JUST to a Scout. Only a scout. You're never getting in melee range of any other 125 class except spy and spy can just cut the bleed duraiton in half. Against any class above 125 health you're just tickling them. good luck taking down a soldier, pyro, or demo with the shiv bro.
>because 2 stock hits = a kill right now when you really fricking need it because that scout is gonna kill you
I already told you, no scout with a pulse and more than two brain cells will let you hit them twice with melee. They are clicking you with their Scattergun and you are going to die, all you can do is get a hit in and kill them after your own death. >Meanwhile you need like 3 shiv hits +5 seconds of bleed. Lmao forget it bro. You're already dead.
You need 1 bodyshot+1 hit+6 sec and they are dead.
You're dead either way. You're facing the game's second strongest closerange class in close range. As one of the weakest closerange classes. Your only option is to roll that 15% crit on first hit, or kill after death which is of similar likelihood of success. >Because stock hit + SMG is a faster kill than shiv hit + SMG.
If you're running smg, kukri is best.
If you're running razorback, dds, camper etc, shiv or stock are both good.
If you're running jarate, bushwacka is best. >If you're near your team then the Scout is never going to get near you anyways
Incredibly incorrect. As Sniper you sit where there's a vantage point, and that very frequently means being a distance from your team (who aren't watching you anyway) and vulnerable to flanking by a Scout. >Only a scout
Scout, Spy, and rocketjumping (therefore not full health) Soldier are the 3 classes you're most likely to fight in melee. And if you're smart you're not even engaging in a melee fight, you're trying to run the frick away.
Shiv lets you track invisible Spies without Jarate, it lets you bodyshot then onehit a Scout, it lets you potentially onehit a Soldier that jumped at you. It's good for those reasons. Simple as.
>You're dead either way. You're facing the game's second strongest closerange class in close range. As one of the weakest closerange classes. Your only option is to roll that 15% crit on first hit, or kill after death which is of similar likelihood of success.
Except that you can't get the oneshot with the shiv. So rolling your 15% is still useless. >If you're running razorback, dds, camper etc, shiv or stock are both good.
No shiv is shit because 15% oneshot chance or just getting a second melee hit is always better than having to do some bodyshot combo bullshit >Scout, Spy, and rocketjumping (therefore not full health) Soldier are the 3 classes you're most likely to fight in melee. And if you're smart you're not even engaging in a melee fight, you're trying to run the frick away.
I like that at this point you've basically admitted that the shiv is useless because it puts you in melee fights for longer and you don't want that. Stock is the only alternative to the bushwacka because stock can still do a 15% oneshot.
>Shiv lets you track invisible Spies without Jarate
You track him for 4 seconds and then what? A bodyshot isn't going to kill him due to the reduced damage. You don't have the SMG (because then you'd be running stock). So you got someone tracked for 4 seconds for nothing. Great job lmao. >it lets you bodyshot then onehit a Scout
This weird combo that still relies on there being no healthpack nearby is still less reliable then getting a 15% or getting 2 hits in. > it lets you potentially onehit a Soldier that jumped at you
Never in a billion years will a situation like this show up where the soldier is low enough to die to the bleed but not the increased basic melee damage of stock.
Being contrarian doesn't make you smart anon. Damage over time sucks in TF2.
>Except that you can't get the oneshot with the shiv.
From reading this first sentence, which ignores something I've already explained to you twice, it's obvious the rest of your post or any further replies you make aren't worth wasting time on reading.
8 months ago
Anonymous
No anon. You cannot oneshot with the shiv. You MUST combo it with something to kill someone. This is unlike the stock kukri that CAN oneshot with a 15% chance. The kill after death doesn't matter since that requires you to combo. Meanwhile the stock kukri combos with itself because 2 melee hits kills all light classes. And why would you ever want to kill someone after death anyway if you can just fricking kill them now and life instead?
Your dumbass shiv sucks, everyone knows it. You're just experiencing sunk cost fallacy now. Admitting that it sucks and getting it over with is too painful for you.
Short Circuit should just be removed from the game entirely or made comically bad (like costs 200 metal, and all ammo refill is now 1/8th including the resupply locker). It’s genuinely one of the worst designed weapons of all time. Let’s just have Engineer completely dominate his 3 counters for no fricking reason and no significant drawback, making a grand total of Engineer making 5 whole fricking classes unplayable when he’s on defense. >J-just use a shotgun
Demoman doesn’t even have that option. You are also not killing a Sentry with a fricking shotgun. Not when it both fricking blinds you and when the Sentry takes almost no fricking damage from a shotgun, even at close range where the Sentry will mow you fricking down.
The 65 metal cost is almost nothing considering that a Dispencer will keep you top off almost instantly at Level 3 and instantly if you have multiple Engineers. And even if you couldn’t, that is still less than a 3rd of metal to completely counter any class using projectiles what so ever.
Give the diamondback the ambassador's current damage falloff.
double the length of the ambassador damage falloff so you don't have to have your gun shoved in their ear to get 102 off.
>Give the diamondback the ambassador's current damage falloff.
Why? When was the last time you actually died to one?
It's a mediocre weapon on the weakest class in the game. I'm old enough to remember when it came out in 2013, nobody complained about it ever until Ambassador was nerfed.
Wrangler. The thing has effectively no downsides and a bunch of upsides. Manual aiming is almost always going to be a good thing, it doubles the fire rate, rockets refresh faster, you have a light aimbot and it gets a fricking 66% damage resistance shield. It can keep the DPS upgrades but either remove the shield or reduce it to 25%.
Phlog is fine as it is
Remove stun lock and mini crits from Scorch Shit
Revert Diamondback so that it only gets crits from sapped buildings like it used to
Kunai should you give less health
Make Wrangler shield weaker
Don't know how to rebalance Vac without completely ruining it
>Don't know how to rebalance Vac without completely ruining it
by deleting it or nerfing it so hard no one ever touches it again, quickfix and stock are enough
Honestly the biggest "nerf" they could do to snipers is a VAC wave.
Especially since they'd all be scrambling to explain how they totally weren't cheating with one of the most glacial anticheats in gaming.
Being able to one shot any class with a hit-scan projectile from a mile away without being able to even SEE the damn sniper as they hide in their own fricking spawn room isn't a fun thing to fight against and takes absolutely minimum thought on the snipers side. At least the spy has to go through an absolute frickload of bullshit to get his insta kills. The sniper just had to have downed some adderall. That's not even going into the various close range options they have, and direct counter tools/weapons to their OWN counter class.
No one is arguing they aren't a high skill class. That's part of the issue. Their skill ceiling is high in terms of requiring precise aim... and that's basically it. As long as you can aim well, you can kill most classes in a one-on-one without them even having a remote chance against you, at any range. It's just not a fun class to fight against since you just turn a corner and die to an enemy you couldn't possibly even know was looking at that location (because the dot is very, very easily hidden). That's really the main issue. It's not even remotely fun to lose against a sniper, whilst against most other classes, there's an actual, enjoyable engagement, even if they can be somewhat one sided.
"It's hard" is no excuse. There's a reason bots and cheaters pick sniper and it's because he's blatantly overpowered. Worse is that sniper clashes with the core design of the game. Every class is close to mid range, close to mid range is where fighting is fun. Sniper being long range clashes with that too much.
It's no surprise that when Sounic tested removing sniper the main statistical difference ended up being more people dying close together in the fun team fights instead compared to more spread out deaths. And the main emotional difference ended up being that people enjoyed the game more.
Scout Solider Spy and even loadout cases like a dragons fury pyro have a higher skill ceiling than sniper.
Scout needs a similar level of aiming, while moving fast both vertically and horizontally and will get rekt if they miss, sniper just reloads in a second
>Hide >Charge rifle >Peak for 1 nano second >Instantly kill 5/9 classes with a body shot and mortally wound the other 4 classes >Retreat back to cover and charge another shot
It doesn't take a lot of skill to be effective with sniper.
>Phlog is fine >Remove minicrits from Scorch Shot otherwise it's fine >Wrangler is fine >Vaccinator is AIDS but there's >Make it so switching weapons >Nerf the Diamondback to only fire when you have crits and make it so you lose crits when you switch off of it. >Kunai is fine
I'd honestly save the nerfs for something more deserving like PBBP.
>I don't see the point of the weapon that grants unlimited range, triples the sentry health and allows to choose the target and shoot it with double firing speed
Yeah you're absolutely right, pistol is much better
>Phlog
Its fine >Vaccinator
I think removing resistances on the Medic himself would be the best solution, it makes it into a bit of a Wrangler/Engineer situation where the Medic remains vulnerable while the other has damage resistance. >Scorch Shot
Just lower the afterburn duration on floor shots >Wrangler
Its been nerfed enough >Kunai and Diamondback
Not a real problem just pubstomp weapons that farms morons like frontier justice and eyelander do
>Phlog
the weakest pyro weapon needs a nerf? lmao >Vaccinator
not really no >scorch
only snipers cry about this weapon >diamondback
only snipers cry about this weapon >wrangler
only snipers... you get the idea >kunai
literally the weakest spy knife lmao
So yeah, this thread is made by a butthurt sniper that is mad about not being able to sit in the back and click heads all game long. He just took his most hated weapons and put it along some random bullshit so that it doesnt look obvious.
Reduce sniper base melee damage to 40 so he can't insta kill anyway at close again unless it's a quick-scope head shot. His melee should be used as desecration to finish off weak players who are already damaged from reaching him in the first place
Jarate needs a nerf to its splash radius size.
Bushwacka on its own is fine.
DDS and Razorback's scissors paper rock game design were a mistake, I would just change DDS to a flat +25HP on wearer. And Razorback make it block one hit of any type from any class on the rear, in exchange for no longer stunning backstabs. So a Spy's gun could remove it.
>phlog
not overpowered you moronic subhuman, position better and enclosed maps don't count as to making a weapon viable, Black person less than 4k hours homosexual >scorch shot
dogshit, stock shotty is somehow better than this redundant piece of garbage, just use the the detonator which does everything better >"uh but scroch better because XD knockback on hit" >>does nothing >>only works on shitter maps designed for shitters I.E pl_goldrush or any map that's tighter than your mom's caverns
't provide mobility like the detonator does >wrangler
shield only provides 50%+ extra hp >vac
charges cost 35% instead of 25%, crits are no prevented and charges only provide 70% resistance to the selected damage type >diamond
minicrits with 1 charge, crits with 2 more more charges >kunai
-80 hp instead of -65
>-80 hp instead of -65
Does nothing, you already die from random sneeze in your direction before your first backstab
-30 on max overheal would be way more impactful
>phlog
not overpowered you moronic subhuman, position better and enclosed maps don't count as to making a weapon viable, Black person less than 4k hours homosexual >scorch shot
dogshit, stock shotty is somehow better than this redundant piece of garbage, just use the the detonator which does everything better >"uh but scroch better because XD knockback on hit" >>does nothing >>only works on shitter maps designed for shitters I.E pl_goldrush or any map that's tighter than your mom's caverns
't provide mobility like the detonator does >wrangler
shield only provides 50%+ extra hp >vac
charges cost 35% instead of 25%, crits are no prevented and charges only provide 70% resistance to the selected damage type >diamond
minicrits with 1 charge, crits with 2 more more charges >kunai
-80 hp instead of -65
just make it so it doesn't give you 75 minimum plus whatever your stab target had. make it give you only 70 minimum plus what your target had as a percentage. so no difference between a full health scout and a full health heavy, you get 70+70, 140. so only if you're full health does it bring you up to 210. a fully overhealed enemy would give 70+105.
if it's still too good just reduce the minimum health to 35, so stabbing a fully-healed enemy gives you 35+70.
really, spy's over knives need buffs more than the kunai needs a nerf.
Anyone who thinks the scorch shot isn't the best flaregun is absolutely delusional. Setting people on fire at range in an AEO is better than anything any other flaregun provides.
In a version of the game where pyro's primaries aren't total dogshit, the flaregun's a better finisher, and the detonator provides better utility.
Scorch shot is only worth using in a version the game where the flamethrower is shit. And the other weapon this applies to? Is the Sharpened Volcano Fragment. Which is just sitting there waiting for other people to notice how much of a fricking menace you can be using it and the flare gun.
Total delusion.
Combo pyro got killed off because pyro being good isn't allowed. It's better to run the stock flamethrower now and just use the scorched shot as your long range harass tool.
Suit yourself man, I'll be taking my 142 base damage combos + 60 afterburn AND melee crit chance all very easy AND possible, because the sharpened volcano fragment doesn't have an aids holster penalty, or eats all of your afterburn.
Up until the enemy team has a pyro, or a medic, or an engineer.
In the mean time, what I'm doing is nearly as or nastier than the classic axtinguisher.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Enemy has an engineer, or heavy >Pyro becomes completely useless anyways
8 months ago
Anonymous
I can still almost immediately trash everything but a pyro, demo soldier or heavy.
And after a second flare the only thing safe is the heavy and the pyro.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Beep beep beep >140 DPS aimbot with afterburn immunity annahiliates you before you can even get in range
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Okay but what if you run into the sentry
I simply don't
You might.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Just don't go to the objective bro
Lmao ok
8 months ago
Anonymous
Look buddy we can play this stupid arms race of you trying to invent situations where the SVF/Flare Gun combo doesn't work.
Or you can start infuriating enemy gamers to a degree that they have never been upset before.
The choice is yours.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Nothing more infuriating than having your movement destroyed and afterburning the entire team.
8 months ago
Anonymous
What you're describing basically only works in payload.
Guess what the ENTIRE enemy team is standing on during payload.
>Phlog
Is only oppressive if combined with a pocket, probably the best class/weapon combo to pair with an uber in pubs. However the real issue is building mmph which is usually done with the... >Scorch Shot
It's a single shot rocket launcher that ignites people instead of blowing them up, and it's a secondary that reloads while unequipped. It's way to rewarding, and when paired with the pholg it's very very powerful for little to no effort, needs a nerf. >Vaccinator
It's a buggy piece of shit and being able to negate an entire classes source of damage is bullshit no matter which way you put it, there is no interaction. The only time it's based is when it's used in huge sightlines against oppressive snipers. >Diamondback
Yes, just like many of pyro's weapons it rewards you with crits for doing the core basics of your classes job and needs to be reworked or nerfed. It's stupid. >Wrangler
Yes. It's OP. 33% increase in effective max HP with increased DPS if the wielder can bother to aim near someone. >Kunai
No. Just no, it's not OP. Turn around, spycheck.
>Phlog
It is situational and has actual difficulty building mmph on it's own. Literally any class who is somewhat competent is capable of countering a phlog pyro even on maps where it shines.
The only thing that makes phlog worth using is >Scorch Shot
No, overpowered isn't the proper word to describe this weapon. It simply does too many things at once. It explodes, it sets opponents on fire, it bounces back on impact exploding a second time, it has knockback and deletes stickies for some reason.
Scorch shot literally never kills anybody, only annoys the enemy or helps someone who is using Phlog to build uber. >Wrangler
Literally just get rid of the shield, having a sentry aim for you is broken as frick as it is. >Vaccinator
No problems with it.
Every Uber is OP and is meant to be so. They're meant to be game changers and Vac in some capacity is either the weakest or strongest Uber. If the medic doesn't know how to toddle damage resistances then it is the worst uber. >Diamondback
I think it gains crits a bit easy. Remove gaining crits on kills entirely and purely on buildings.
I genuinely wanna boil when I hear people say >He gains crits by doing spy things
Well shit, Engineer gets crits with Frontier Justice by doing Engineer things too. >Kunai
Nothing wrong with it.
Only people that complain about it are absolute noobs that can't kill the absolute weakest class in the game.
>>Well shit, Engineer gets crits with Frontier Justice by doing Engineer things too.
No, he gains crits by destroying his gun, which is the opposite of what he's normally supposed to be doing. There's a tradeoff: your gun goes down, you gain crits. When you don't have crits, you have a worse shotgun because of low ammo. Diamondback gains crits for backstabs, which every spy is trying to get anyway, and actually has fewer downsides than the Ambassador, which rewards crits for good aim.
>No, he gains crits by destroying his gun,
Or the enemy destroying your gun. >Diamondback gains crits for backstabs, which every spy is trying to get anyway and actually has fewer downsides than the Ambassador
Fewer written downsides. Ask yourself the question: why was almost no Spy using diamondback when Ambassador was unbanned?
Because it takes 30 seconds to a minute of running around invisibly wasting time to get each backstab or sap, assuming you even achieve it without dying in the process. Which is an incredibly inefficient way of getting crits. I could pick Sniper and walk out of spawn, charge for just 3 seconds and have access to a 150/450 damage shot.
Compared to getting 102 damage once, per 30-60+ seconds.
A razorback sniper is just as much a free kill for spy as a non-rb, just need to not drop all your spaghetti landing 2 shots after your free first one.
I have 8k hours >phlog crits now prevent the user from being ubered/vaccinated by a medic >diamondback now grants 5 seconds of crits on backstab and refreshes the timer on critical revolver kills instead of crits just being stored forever, also this should just be how the stock revolver works because spy is about burst damage and he currently sucks at it beyond getting his one stab >vaccinator locks into the resistance type you used when you deploy a bubble, and just converts incoming critical hits into regular hits instead of reducing crit damage to almost 0 >wrangler should make the user take way more aimpunch and disable the aim assist for a moment so you can shoot at the engie to throw the sentry off aim, and when putting away the wrangler/dying the shield should wear off before the sentry wakes up again so you can kill the engie and then reliably kill the gun to penalize it >kunai is fine, people just b***h because it benefits facestabs more than usual which makes them mad either way >scorch shot is fine on every half decent map that has well placed kits to counter afterburn, doesn't really need changes
>I have 8k hours
8k hours and you still die to Diamondback enough to think a weak weapon on the game's worst class warrants a nerf? >not understanding how the vacc works >Ridiculously overcomplicated solution to Wrangler which wouldn't even balance it
Oh you're moronic
>Wrangler
-Sentry can't be fixed while wrangled >Scorch Shot
-Reduced blast radius >Kunai
-cooldown of lifestel >Diamonback
-minicrits instead of crits get 2 instead of one on backstab
-lower firing speed
-no damage penalty
Others are fine
Classes in order of their fundamental importance to the gameplay of TF2 >Engineer
Without Engineer all asymmetrical gamemodes would suck. Engineer is the one class that stops the attacking team from just running in like headless chickens over and over and winning the war of attrition with their superior respawn time. Engineer forces downtime where individual skirmishes can happen and both team can build up for the inevitable teamfight. The point of teamfights often is to take down / defend the engineer and his buildings.
Teleporters and dispensers allow for more creative map design as ammo packs and respawn rooms can have a greater variance in their positioning and quantity due to Engineer picking up the slack. >Medic
Medic capitalizes on the downtime that Engineer creates. He and the class he ubers become the centerpiece of the upcoming teamfight. Is the most important counter to Engineer. >Soldier, demo
Generalists who are important to have on both teams as the primary combat classes. Both are great at taking down the engineer, amazing uber targets for the medic. Games are the best with a healthy pool of them >Heavy, scout
Less to say here. These just aren't as important to the overal flow of the game and can often be replaced with a demo or soldier without much changing, but demo and soldier cannot be changed by one of these in the same way. Heavy can be an important roadblock, scout does punish a lack of engineers. >Spy
Changes how the game is played emotionally by causing paranoia, but doesn't really do anything aside from that. >Pyro
Pyro can pretty much always be replaced by any other combat class and nothing would change. >Sniper
Actively harmful to the game by conflicting with the core combat design (close to mid range). Yet his presence rarely influences the outcome of games.
I'd go as far as saying that TF2 would still be a good game if it had only engineer, medic, demo, and soldier in it. You could even remove either soldier or demo from that list, as long as one of the is still there. But you would probably miss heavy and scout for the niche's they fill.
And if just pyro, spy, and sniper were removed from the timeline nobody would miss them or want what they offered. Everything Pyro does can be done by Heavy. The one thing that's truly unique to sniper and spy (insta kills) is a thing the game could do without.
I feel like I HAVE to use phlog and scorch shot as pyro because valve absolutely gutted flamethrower damage and dots, otherwise I'm just an airblast bot
Anyone saying the kunai is shit and doesn't just completely turn the spy into a braindead class without having to worry about escape plans, (since he has the second highest speed and second highest health in the game after a backstab) is stupid.
Literally all you have to do is not play like a moron against what is essentially a basic b***h 2b2t player with a kill aura.
Hell if you've JUST spawned in you can frick him over by outing him with your spawn wallhacks.
This homosexual can backstab my teammates and revolver me with usually more health and speed and then get away with it moron. This spans way beyond your stupid backstab zoomer speak kill aura analogy.
None of them. TF2 isn't competitive and none of these weapons are so dominating in a 12v12 format that warrants any of them getting a nerf. They'd just become unusable dogshit. See the Caber and the Sandman. Why do people insist on trying to balance a party game for a competitive 6v6 mode when that's just not what the fricking game was made for?
I haven't played tf2 since 2009 but for some reason lately every time I see a thread about it I feel like trying it again, is it worthed?
Have the starting weapons gotten powercrept to oblivion or are they still viable?
No, you can complain about Valve for a lot of their balance decisions. But stock weapons are still among the best for most classes. The only exception is the melee slot where a unlock is almost always better, but that's just the melee slot.
The only exception for stock being the best is: >Heavy
This is the most solid and blatant. Tomislav, Sandvich, Gloves or running urgently is the overal best loadout. But the Sandvich is the real difference maker here. Tomislav VS stock is close. >Demoman
This is VERY close, but the very best demoman players believe that the Iron bomber is better than the stock grenade launcher. But like I said. VERY CLOSE. >Medic
The ubersaw is obviously and by far the best melee. And the crossbow is usually the best primary. But on medic this matters much less.
On every other class stock is either the best or equal to the best.
The demoman is out of date since the iron bomber was outed as having a frickhuge hitbox and comp players were pretending it was for "more skilled usage" of the lack of rollers.
Now it's basically a sticky launcher for demoknights that want to blast jump.
Good demo players still think the Iron bomber is better just because having no rollers = more likely to hit and it also has the grenade jumping advantage. The blast radius nerf isn't big enough to matter in most cases, but the roller buff is definitely noticeable.
The math is simple. The gain damage of having more consistent rollers is higher than the damage loss of having reduced splash radius. And the easier grenade jumping is an additional perk.
The round grenades are also more consistent in source engine air resistance calculation bullshittery even with the hitboxes now being the same. So the Iron bomber is more accurate on average.
Hell no. I'd say iron bomber vs stock or sandvich vs banana is boobs VS ass. Tomislav is the only primary unlock in the game that I'm confident is objectively better than stock (though not by that much).
>Close range, not reved up
Tomi wins from stock because it revs up faster >Close range reved up
Stock wins, but JUST BARELY and only if you're pretty much point blank >Any other range, reved up or not
Tomi wins because the accuracy bonus is better than the fire rate nerf. >Silent rev
Doesn't matter a lot, but very nice in some cases. Never a downside.
The Tomislav is an abomination of a weapon that never should have been added by the way. They had to opportunity to give heavy an LMG weapon instead that functions differently from the miniguns but they chose to just make a fast minigun which is obviously going to be the best one.
Eh stock has a lot of upsides that play well with how Heavy is played and most of the time you should be fighting people within the range that the stock shines at: >better damage within 500ish hammer units >better able to handle 2+ opponents who are nearby each other >better able to deal with sc**ts - one of the best anti-heavy strats with any class is to get up in his face and mess with his tracking, and the minigun helps with this immensely >has an easier time clearing stickies >easier dealing with spies
Heavy has a small effective range, and I prefer becoming strong in that niche rather than trying to branch into being a more ranged class.
Also, >sandwich and banana
I mean what's there to discuss? Use banana when you're alone and sandvich when you have a medic. And even then you should always use banana in casual since medics are non existent and you can throw it to anyone who's bleeding or on fire.
damage within 500ish hammer units
Not really. Stock is only objectively better at like 100 units. More specifically the tomislav is always better at any range where your opponent is far enough away that his model doesn't entirely take up the aiming reticle. And only when already pre reved. Tomislav's better rev is cancels most of Stock's damage advantage at close range. And at longer ranges the accuracy is better than the fire rate.
able to handle 2+ opponents who are nearby each othe
Focussing one down quickly then moving onto the other is always better than tickling both.
able to deal with sc**ts
I can kinda see this, but if your aim is good then this doesn't really matter. >>has an easier time clearing stickies
Barely matters.
dealing with spies
For tracking but not for killing.
The Tomislav is superior close range when you're unreved and it's superior mid to long range in all cases. Stock having this one niche case of being better at pointblank when reved is the defintion of just being outclassed. Stock is only really "better" if your aim is bad so the increased accuracy is actually a downside on you.
shut up dude, the only time a tomislav is going to lose is if both heavies are revved up right next to each other
i should know i refused to switch for the longest time and tomislav accuracy is actually bullshit
Stock is usually the most powerful loadout on any given class, with a few exceptions. It doesn't really matter though, since a single key will net you every weapon in the game plus a few cool cosmetics.
Best loadouts >Scout
Soda popper and pbpp are the tiniest bit better than stock, any melee that's not sandman is viable >Soldier
stock is usually best but cow mangler and gunboats are situationally better; escape plan/disciplinary action/market gardener are all better than stock >Pyro
stock flamer is usually the best, detonator or scorch or flare or panic attack are slightly better than stock shotgun, and powerjack or backscratcher are clearly better than stock >Demo
Stock Stickies are king, iron bomber is a tiny bit better than stock, and all melees are viable except caber >Heavy
Stock for small maps and tomislav for long maps, sandvich or banana secondary, GRU or FOS melee >Engie
Stock is best, Wrangler or Short Circuit, and stock but other wrenches have situational uses especially gunslinger >Medic
Stock, Crossbow, Ubersaw. Every time. Only exception is if your team are morons who can't protect you at all. >Sniper
Stock/Bazaar Bargain, Razorback/Jarate/DDS/stock depending on which class is focusing you, and any melee is viable except maybe shahanshah. >Spy
Facing competent players? All Stock is your best bet, unless they're on guard, in which case change class if you want to be useful, or L'Etranger and Cloak and Dagger if you are willing to wait while being useless.
Facing idiots? It doesn't matter what you use, you'll win anyway.
>Sniper >and any melee is viable except maybe shahanshah.
The shiv is so objectively inferior it's not even funny. Why would you want to do 50% less damage and miss out on oneshot crits for bleed?
The only good melees for sniper are stock and bushwacka. Use bushwacka when you're running jarate or carbine, otherwise you use stock. Shahanshah isn't worth it because it doesn't cross any thresholds when the condition is met.
>The shiv is so objectively inferior it's not even funny. Why would you want to do 50% less damage and miss out on oneshot crits for bleed?
Chasing down persistent Spies who pop back into invis, it's also good for finishing off Scouts so even if they kill you, you die. I've spent a fair bit of time using it, and it's gotten me multiple kills on enemies who 65 damage wouldn't be enough for, but 81 will.
>Scout
lol Scattergun is still the best by a fricking mile
Soda Popper works out to more DPS than the Scattergun in the short term and in the long term, while Scatter is only better in mid duration fights. Plus, you get the ability to literally fly after a couple of fights. Popper is slightly better.
the whole classes are broken
>The whole classes are broken
No. The game is balanced around Soldier. Demo is only very slightly too strong on defense. The only broken class is Medic, but by intention.
[...]
I main scout, pyro and spy. So let me respond about those
The absolute best load out is scatter, pistol, and atomiser. How much the map opens up to you with an extra jump should not be underestimated. I used to be a pretty boy's boy but I think the pistol is better at being a secondary as it has better range and accuracy. The pretty boy's is better as a close range back up weapon.
Stock flamethrower is the best followed closely by the back burner. Det or stock shotty for secondary but for pure killing power the shotgun is king. It has better range than the panic attack which is important for the pyro. There's never a time where the powerjack is a bad choice. If you have no med the back scratcher is amazing as you can two shot a heavy if you get a crit.
Full stock is my go to, the revolver is a very important tool for spy and should be used almost as much as your knife. Invis watch is simply the best watch: great mobility and great for getting into enemy lines. L'Etranger and Your Eternal Reward is something I switch to to bust nests and is actually a very good loadout (the L'Etranger is simply a must for using the YER).
>but I think the pistol is better at being a secondary as it has better range and accuracy.
The range and accuracy are identical, read the stats. The only advantage Pistol has over PBPP is a 25% bigger clip size.
Backburner isn't as good as Degreaser or Dragon's Fury, unless your enemies are very dumb and keep letting you flank them.
Not an argument. Cope, mald and seethe. Any further replies or non replies are an admission by you that you are the one who is actually moronic, as well as gay, a troon and shit at TF2.
>Chasing down persistent Spies who pop back into invis, it's also good for finishing off Scouts so even if they kill you, you die. I've spent a fair bit of time using it, and it's gotten me multiple kills on enemies who 65 damage wouldn't be enough for, but 81 will.
Just dealing 65 damage instantly is better in nearly all these cases. And now you're also missing out on half the reason to even pull out a melee weapon, the chance to deal 195 instead. Worthless.
>And now you're also missing out on half the reason to even pull out a melee weapon, the chance to deal 195 instead.
You can still crit for 98 + 48 bleed for a total of 146 damage, which will kill many things in just one melee hit. Idk what to tell you anon, I've found it secured me multiple kills I know stock wouldn't have gotten, I never felt like "if only I had stock I wouldn't have died".
8 months ago
Anonymous
>You can still crit for 98
Wow. That doesn't oneshot anything. Great. Now the guy you wanted to kill can run off and find a health pack. Or if it's a soldier/pyro/demo/heavy/medic/gunslinger engie they can literally just tank the damage.
Also spies can survive if because cloaking the duration of all status effects in half so it's not even good versus spies. Just go for the 15% chance to oneshot instead, unironically more reliable.
>I've found it secured me multiple kills I know stock wouldn't have gotten
This is just wrong. Literally just hit the dude again or finish them with a no-scope of the rifle. If you actually think the Shiv is good you're blatanly moronic.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>This is just wrong
Okay, I'll go back and tell those people I killed that they can un-die. >Just hit them again
How do I hit a Scout again who is in the process of meatshotting me exactly? Explain that.
50 bodyshot + 33 shiv + 48 bleed will kill a Scout.
50 bodyshot + 65 kukri will not kill a Scout.
I have killed numerous Scouts after death this way. Assuming you can get two hits in with Kukri then sure stock is better, but that relies on the Scout being BAD enough to let him hit you with a melee weapon two times in a row.
8 months ago
Anonymous
That scout dying to the bleed without getting a health pack somewhere isn't worth this one very niche situation you're forcing yourself in. Really, if you're a sniper and there's a scout up close to you fricking try to quickscope him instead of pulling out your melee.
The shiv is also worse if you have the SMG equipped BTW. Didn't feel like mentioning that until this point because it might not have been applicable. If you use the SMG you absolutely don't want the shiv. You want to bab them with stock so your SMG can finish them off quicker.
Either way, you having to force these weird scenarios where there are no healthpacks, dispensers, or medics nearby, the guy you're attacking is specifically a scout, sniper, moron spy who doesn't use cloak, or engineer without the gunslinger, and you wouldn't rather just try to oneshot them with a random crit or get a guaranteed oneshot with the bushwacka is so convoluted and specific that you can just call it a downgrade. And for what? Getting a kill on some guy when you're dead? That scout blasted your ass back to the respawn room 8 seconds ago.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>That scout dying to the bleed without getting a health pack somewhere isn't worth this one very niche situation you're forcing yourself in
I think that a scout not being able to find a healthpack in 6 seconds is arguably even more common than getting a crit with melee (15% of the time) which is what you need for stock to be worth it over shiv. >Either way, you having to force these weird scenarios where there are no healthpacks, dispensers, or medics nearby
They're not weird scenarios. You're playing Sniper, which automatically means you're sitting far away from the enemy's Medic and Dispenser, in your team's backline. The Scout flanked behind your team to reach you. If he goes for the healthpack he's probably going to have to fight one of your allies for it while bleeding, assuming it's not already been taken. Either way he dies to bleed unless he got lucky and the healthpack is less than 6 seconds away, not taken, and nobody shoots at him on the way there. >Or guaranteed one shot with bushwacka
Then you give up SMG and also take more damage yourself, you may not even live to get the first hit off at all. Shiv doesn't make you physically squishier.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>I think that a scout not being able to find a healthpack in 6 seconds is arguably even more common than getting a crit with melee (15% of the time) which is what you need for stock to be worth it over shiv.
Lmao no
Stock is already worth more than shiv by default because 2 stock hits = a kill right now when you really fricking need it because that scout is gonna kill you. Meanwhile you need like 3 shiv hits +5 seconds of bleed. Lmao forget it bro. You're already dead. >Then you give up SMG
If you're running SMG you should always run stock instead. Because stock hit + SMG is a faster kill than shiv hit + SMG. >you may not even live to get the first hit off at all
Bro bushwacka only gives fire vulnerablity. That doesn't matter. If a pyro gets in close and you whip out the shiv you're actually more dead then if you had the bushwacka + jarate. You're not gonna do shit with the shiv, but you might oneshot him with Jarate + bushwacka.
If it's survival you want the shiv is always a detrimental pick since it takes longer to kill and thus gives the enemy more chances to kill you.
>They're not weird scenarios, etc.
If you're near your team then the Scout is never going to get near you anyways which means the shiv is wasted because the stock kukri is better vs Spy.
If you're not near you team you're near a health/ammo pack because you need that. The scout will kill you (because you can't defend yourself due to shit damage) and pick up the health pack.
Also, keep in mind. All of this BS you're saying applies JUST to a Scout. Only a scout. You're never getting in melee range of any other 125 class except spy and spy can just cut the bleed duraiton in half. Against any class above 125 health you're just tickling them. Good luck taking down a soldier, pyro, or demo with the shiv bro.
Scattergun is better than the soda popper. Quick-Fix and Kritzkrieg have enough situational uses where they should be put alongside the stock Medi-gun. Razorback and DDS are crutches. Having headphones makes up for the former and map knowledge counters the latter. Jarate and stock SMG are the best picks for sniper. Spy should just be change class in general; but otherwise, he's one of the only classes where most of his weapons are in a good spot. As long as you aren't running the enforcer, you are good.
Best loadouts >Scout
Soda popper and pbpp are the tiniest bit better than stock, any melee that's not sandman is viable >Soldier
stock is usually best but cow mangler and gunboats are situationally better; escape plan/disciplinary action/market gardener are all better than stock >Pyro
stock flamer is usually the best, detonator or scorch or flare or panic attack are slightly better than stock shotgun, and powerjack or backscratcher are clearly better than stock >Demo
Stock Stickies are king, iron bomber is a tiny bit better than stock, and all melees are viable except caber >Heavy
Stock for small maps and tomislav for long maps, sandvich or banana secondary, GRU or FOS melee >Engie
Stock is best, Wrangler or Short Circuit, and stock but other wrenches have situational uses especially gunslinger >Medic
Stock, Crossbow, Ubersaw. Every time. Only exception is if your team are morons who can't protect you at all. >Sniper
Stock/Bazaar Bargain, Razorback/Jarate/DDS/stock depending on which class is focusing you, and any melee is viable except maybe shahanshah. >Spy
Facing competent players? All Stock is your best bet, unless they're on guard, in which case change class if you want to be useful, or L'Etranger and Cloak and Dagger if you are willing to wait while being useless.
Facing idiots? It doesn't matter what you use, you'll win anyway.
I main scout, pyro and spy. So let me respond about those
The absolute best load out is scatter, pistol, and atomiser. How much the map opens up to you with an extra jump should not be underestimated. I used to be a pretty boy's boy but I think the pistol is better at being a secondary as it has better range and accuracy. The pretty boy's is better as a close range back up weapon.
Stock flamethrower is the best followed closely by the back burner. Det or stock shotty for secondary but for pure killing power the shotgun is king. It has better range than the panic attack which is important for the pyro. There's never a time where the powerjack is a bad choice. If you have no med the back scratcher is amazing as you can two shot a heavy if you get a crit.
Full stock is my go to, the revolver is a very important tool for spy and should be used almost as much as your knife. Invis watch is simply the best watch: great mobility and great for getting into enemy lines. L'Etranger and Your Eternal Reward is something I switch to to bust nests and is actually a very good loadout (the L'Etranger is simply a must for using the YER).
It's just not a good pistol when it comes to killing things due to the low clip size. And increased jump height simply isn't as good as an extra jump as extra jumps make you more agile. Winger isn't a bad weapon just not top tier. If I'm running neither the atomiser nor Force-a'-Nature, maybe I'd consider the winger
I don't think it's OP or anything but god do I hate fighting the dead ringer. There's nothing more frustrating than having a spy fail his stab and then still get off with barely a slap on the wrist because he whips out his get out of jail free stopwatch. Like half the time the spy will literally just stare at me, waiting for me to shoot him, and because of how insane the damage reduction and speed is, unless i'm playing pyro and stick to his ass like glue there's nothing I can realistically do to kill him then and there. I'm forced to waste time and track him down and kill him "again" in an infuriating minigame. Again I don't think it's actually OP or even that good, it's just a waste of time and I hate that.
>I'm forced to waste time and track him down and kill him "again" in an infuriating minigame
No you aren't. Just ignore him. Go capture the fricking objective while he jacks off invisibly. He's not accomplishing anything and his team is effectively down 1 person.
You can kill him after his team loses and the humiliation round starts.
Chasing dead Black person spies is literally the equivalent of replying to bait on Ganker.
>Phlog
mmph can only be built from primary damage (no more brain-dead scorh shot spam to build mmph) >Wrangler
Remove the damage resistance or severely reduce it >Diamondback
Crits obtained only last 5 seconds, similar to the KGB >Diamondback
Either tweak the min and max HP you get on backstab or increase the HP decay rate >Vaccinator and Scorch Shot
Annoying but idk what to change
None. I'm fricking sick of nerfs. Buff some other weapons so there are some better sidegrades in the game. Bring back the old Sandman and BFB. Bring back the old Sydney Sleeper. I'm so fricking sick of dogshit nerfs and reworks that do nothing but suck all the fun out of the game. YES I AM STILL MAD ABOUT THE YER REWORK
Vacc is only a straight upgrade if your team consists of 8 spies and nothing else. Any half-decent team will have a wide enough spread of damage types that the Vacc is situational at best outside of making Snipers with pocket meds slightly more annoying.
Out of these, probably the Scorch Shot. Even as a Pyro, it doesn’t feel fun to just blindly shoot in someone’s general direction and set them on fire. The double-hit mechanic is a pretty cool idea though, so if it only exploded after hitting someone first, I think that would be acceptable.
Panic attack isn't viable on pyro because he's already a close range class, and the PA is only good at close range. You're better off using the reserve shooter, since it has the quick switch benefit and lets you minicrit airborne targets, while not sacrificing the longer range potential.
Panic attack works best on the other classes who are inherently long ranged, like soldier and sniper and engi.
>Even as a Pyro, it doesn’t feel fun to just blindly shoot in someone’s general direction and set them on fire.
I disagree, it feels very fun.
And setting people on fire isn't really good when it does poor damage and you're always only a few seconds away from something that will put out fire in the average game of TF2.
I could just pick Demoman and spam stickies in the general direction of the enemy and it would kill them outright with 120 damage, rather than tickling them for 8 damage per second.
>the only ones complaining about the vaccinator are sniper mains who are seething they cant insta kill someone from the other side of the map with no reprecussions
What maps are even good for Wrangler? Most engagements happen in close range anyways, manual aim adds human error, if you don't have a second pocket engi then you risk downtime during firefight whenever you have to repair, and being tied to your sentry in general means that you're not fighting yourself or doing other engi shit. Aren't you just putting all your eggs into one basket?
All of them. You're never forced to switch to Wrangler in situations where it's a risky choice. Seeing as you never really need the Pistol, you can have it in your loadout and leave it for only times where it's obviously advantageous, like: >Someone is corner peeking your Sentry. Shoot rockets to hit them around the corner >Pyro is baiting your rockets to reflect them into your lv3; simply equip Wrangler and the rockets won't fire >Uber is incoming. Wrangle your sentry to waste more of their uber time in killing it and possibly even knock them back with well placed rockets >Sniper has a long sightline on you somehow. Snipe him back >Trolldier/Demoknight jumped onto your sentry and are abusing its turn rate. Make it point up and shoot them >Bonk Scout is trying to kill you with your own Sentry or distract it from your allies. Wrangle it to shoot the correct target
It multiplies your sentries effective health by 3, so you could effectively stuff an uber if you were competent enough to handle aim assist instead of aimbot for your sentry. They nerfed it so that repairs to your sentry take the same penalty, but even now so long as you can get an explosive class or pyro to juggle a player, the wrangler can still keep your sentry healthy enough to survive an uber from most classes.
>puts sticky trap while you're taunting >positions right behind you to insta backstab you >revs right in your face to basically insta kill you >aims right at your head to insta head shot you >taunt kills you with ubersaw
git gud
The direct hit is fricking aids. >scout giving you trouble? Just click on him at close range and insta kill him with an almost impossible (at close range) to dodge projectile >Pyro reflecting your rockets? Just use the direct hit which is way harder to reflect, and actually impossible to reflect on reaction at close range >Engi? You can now two shot all his builds at range >Heavy on the point? You can now out range him even harder
Soldiers think just because they actually have to aim for once they should get an instant kill weapon
giving you trouble? Just click on him at close range and insta kill him with an almost impossible (at close range) to dodge projectile
Why is the Scout, the fastest class in the game, in close range of you in the first place? Why didn't he press S and go to midrange where he can shoot you and easily sidestep your projectiles with their tiny teleporter-sized splash radius?
Direct Hit makes you vastly worse against any competent Scout, which is why nobody uses it in top level play despite it being unbanned for like a decade. >Pyro reflecting your rockets? Just use
Your Shotgun that comes free with the class. >>Engi? You can now two shot all his builds at range
Considering that he gets Wrangler and Short Circuit, this is absolutely fine.
Plus, that's only against buildings which he isn't actively repairing. If he's repairing them you aren't going to twoshot them. As with stock you'll need to slowly grind them down, but unlike stock, you can't deal good splash damage the whole nest and the Engineer with each rocket you fire. >Heavy on the point? You can now out range him even harder
Even Heavy can usually sidestep rockets being fired from long range, because you have no splash radius.
Correct. It's not like you stop having damage at midrange. You get up close against Demomen and Medics and Snipers and Spies and distracted Heavies and Engineers who have no Sentry. You stay at midrange against Soldiers, Pyros, and Heavies who saw you.
This already applies when fighting stock Soldier. Stock Soldier can click in the general vicinity of your feet at close range two times and you will die, no matter how good you are.
The only thing I can only give you truthly thats aids is the Sentry damage the frickin thing does it There is no way that the soldier should destroy sentries better then the demoman or spy especially since its so low effort. Honestly what you should be complaining about is Soldiers gunboats and how it basically makes him easy mode at high level play
>homosexual downplaying
No b***h it doesnt matter if you're well positioned or not the soldier will almost always delete your buildings with minimal effort even if your building is positioned correctly, It is litterally that brainless.
>should be tweaked, isn't too broken but is a bit better than it should be
kunai and scorch shot >isn't even OP
phlog and diamondback >what the frick was valve thinking
wrangler and vaccinator
The diamondback should be in the "should be tweaked, isn't too broken but is a bit better than it should be" category.
It's a better Ambassador at this point.
You can remove the fire rate nerf from the diamond back and give it a clip size nerf instead and it would be fine.
I don't want to buff any of the stock melees. That's just powercreep.
Most of the melee weapons are balanced around stock, so you would have to make heaps of changes to get everything to the level of the few most powerful outliers.
Stock Soldier is one of the best classes in the game as it is. It's absolutely fine that he should have downsides like his stock melee not being very useful for killing.
If you want a Soldier who has a good melee weapon for killing then it should come with downsides that properly balance it. Equalizer is a good candidate for that.
The Diamondback >Backstabbing or Sapping builds meter instead of building a fixed number of crits >Your next shots will crit as long as you have meter. Full meter gives you up to 6 crits >The meter begins (slowly) depleting after backstabbing/sapping/firing your Diamondback
This maintains the item's identity while making it so you can't just infinitely build crits and squat on them forever >Buff the Ambassador by making the fall-off less drastic
I do not have any problem with the Ambassador promoting a more skill-based playstyle.
I had this funny idea for a TF2 mod that's just TF2 "IMBA".The idea of it is "what if we buffed all weapons". It's a little like TF2 x10 but without the x10 gimmick and the chance of weapons actually getting worse due to x10.
I even made a silly document for it with all my initial idea for weapon buffs. I tried to buff most weapons without removing their downsides.
I gave many stock weapons either a faster reload, larger splash radius, or larger clip size. The rocket launcher is like 30% more reload speed, 30% more blast radius. Pipe bomb launcher has more blast radius and 6 pills in the mag. The sniper rifle has a gazillion bullets and increased fire rate to make it better for unscoped fights. The stock shotgun is just 10% better at everything (rounded up) so 10% more damage, 10% more fire rate, +1 clip size, +1 pellets per shot, +10% accuracy, +10% ammo reserve. All stock melees have instant switch speed so they're proper back-up weapons.
Funny more creative ideas are the bazaar bargain heads having a mini-eyelander effect and also giving HP and movespeed up to 5 heads. The stock revolver firing two bullets, one perfectly accurate and the other wildly unaccurate. Shortstop shove now deal 150 damage, Eurka effect can teleport to any of your buildings.
>Phlog
Fix taunt canceling, make the flamethrower range be half so you don't get instakilled from bullshit flame particles but make the weapon charge with all damage (not just fire) and give the phlog charge critical hits for all weapons to encourage weapon switching >Vacc
Reduce the uber damage res by like 5%, give diminishing returns to blocking more than one damage type at once >Scorch shot
Reduce the projectile speed by like 30%, it being one of the fastest projectiles in the game with a large AOE that gives you full after burn no matter how close you are to it is bullshit to fight against >Diamond back
Un neuter the ambassador first >Wrangler
Just reduce the shield damage resistance to like 35% instead of 66% >Kunai
Buff the starting health slightly and reduce the max overheal slightly
>Wrangler
shitter filter. just kill the engineer, or better yet, use teamwork to divert his attention (a groundbreaking concept for a game called TEAM fortress 2, i know)
if you are walking into a wrangled sentry (an immobile map hazard) head on, thats your fault for being moronic >Vaccinator
shitter filter, literally just kill them. the vaccinator doesnt make them invulnverable. on your own? cant out dps the vacc shield? run away and regroup with your TEAM mates, in the game called TEAM fortress 2 >short circuit
literally just reposition? the engineer can only face one direction at once, and every projectile class he counters are also conveniently the ones with mobility on demand. use it to flank, and stop holding W into the obvious deathballs, you shitter
Phlog has no airblast.
Scorch deals no damage outside afterburn which is a huge meme.
Vacc is only an issue if the medic is a god with it and has teammates to utilize it well.
Diamondback is shit with how often spy dies though MAYBE you should get less crits.
Kunai makes you one shot by literally anything before a stab.
Wrangler is a fricking OP piece of shit that has been OP since release even with the repair nerfs a while back. The shield is too fricking strong and the fact that it buffs the already huge damage output of a sentry is insane.
The scorch shot was never considered OP until 1 youtuber complained about it. At least when STAR_ complained about the gunslinger it was actually busted
Well with sniper the case is slightly different. Valve killing off quality user servers meant no moderation
No moderation meant VAC was the only mitigating factor for people cheating.
That and bots.
Plus you've also got people cheating convincing most people that >Yeah, no totally the guy that has 200 hours on sniper TOTALLY has aimbot tier aim, let's pretend this is something that makes sense at all, despite not being an issue up until server moderation was gone
>Nobody had a problem with the wrangler until le heckin uncle danerino started calling it OP.
Competitive players have banned it since forever, so that's not true. The main thing stopping Wrangler being abused is that people find it too boring.
But when someone does go out of their way to ruin everyone's fun at the expense of their own, it shits things up.
>Competitive players have banned it since forever, so that's not true
Competitive players have also banned 90% of the games content for their niche minigame, so I don't see how that really means anything?
Also, competitive TF2 has always been, and always will be a joke. Literally nobody takes it, or anyone involved in it seriously. Casual is the core TF2 experience, and in casual, there are more than 6 players per team, greatly changing the dynamic when it comes to countering a wrangler.
Compgays are just a convenient boogeyman. Discourse and rhetoric fall apart when some homosexual can just spout nonsense and other gays just go along with it because no one here gives an actual shit about competitive.
Um ACKSHUALLY the other 99% of the tf2 community is russian bots, and the only people that play tf2 are the people that agree with me that the sun on a stick is overpowered and needs to be nerfed
Anon i dont know if you realize this but the tactics used in competitive also work in a pub setting.
If an skilled uber demo and 2 soldiers can't do enough damage to take out 1 sentry being healed by the same engineer thats just hotswapping between rescue ranger and wrangler to shield/push stickies/heal, imagine how hellish things get when you have engineers stacked together like in a pub wacking their jags together
The rescue ranger has a metal cost now and the wrangler reduces repair effectiveness, and the thing is still pretty damn strong. But its no longer strong enough that a skilled team can't numerically overwhelm the engineer anymore.
And before you try to counter with "hurr just kill engineer", defensively they'd put fricking healing on the engineer to make sure he just won't die, and the rest of the team can still focus the non-ubered players so only demo/med is really safe
Anon I don't if you realized but comp is 6v6 and casual is 12v12 which inherently changes the balance of most of the game by a significant degree. Mostly all "health sponges" like heavies and wrangled sentries are less significant in a 12v12 scenario since there is more firepower on both teams. This is also why the GRU nerfs are completely unfounded because heavy being fast in 12v12 isn't a problem because the class is inherently weaker with so much damage on both teams. Same goes for the basejumper nerf which was only OP in 6v6 because engineer and heavy don't exist to counter the basejumper in that mode.
TF2 should be balanced around 12v12. Not 6v6 12v12 is the core of the game. Of course Spy is garbage in 6v6, there isn't enough chaos for him to thrive. Of course a fast heavy is overpowered in 6v6. There isn't enough firepower to take him down. But these aren't problems in 12v12.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Of course Spy is garbage in 6v6, there isn't enough chaos for him to thrive.
Spy is garbage in 12v12 if the teams are even remotely competent. The fact that you're pretending he doesn't need some serious buffs is pretty evident that you've never played against a good team as a spy because all his issues are EVEN FRICKING WORSE when there's more players to call you out and murder you. You're basing your opinions off casual which almost always has half a team of shitters on both sides.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Base my opinion on what you agree is a likely scenario
So anyway. Spy is ok in casual.
Now, please don't pretend like the enemy team actually regularly communicating is common since you already admitted that this isn't common.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Balancing around morons simply because they're more common is about as moronic as those same players who take more than a second to switch weapons.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Except it isn't because tf2 is a casual fun game and not a competitive game. There is no matchmaking system ensuring that all players on both teams are of roughly the same skill level. Since morons are a reality, buffing Spy, so he's good at the highest level of play will just make him overpowered when morons are present. Because morons exist Spy cannot, should not, and will never be strong at the highest level. The mere existence of morons is what makes him viable. Spy should be underpowered because if he was overpowered then the class fantasy of infiltrating enemies lines and causing mayhem while keeping up your cover is lost.
8 months ago
Anonymous
morons wouldn't complain if spy were buffed considering they can't even deal with a pyro who w+m1s without reflects, why should balance be dictated by those people? There's no reason to focus on the lowest common denominator beyond the fact that you specifically have no experience with anything else.
I literally hate spies and play pyro all the time just to enjoy killing them constantly and I think he needs a buff, it's fricking incredible that you're suggesting otherwise.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Spy is already acceptable in 12v12 casual because he can thrive off morons >Buff him because he's weak vs the highest level of player even though that's the point of the class >Now he's overpowered as frick an annoying
This is what would happen I guarantee it.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You don't even know how he'd be balanced and you're acting like any buff would make him "OP".
8 months ago
Anonymous
What kind of "balance" do you want.
I'd agree on stuff like reverting the amby and the YER. But anything more fundamental? Frick no. That'd make him OP. Reverting the deadringer would also make him OP.
If Spy gets his survivability/mobility buffed he'll become an unkillable piece of shit menace again because the morons that are inevitably on your team will can't communicate his presence, listen to your communication about his presence, or coordinate a take-down.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>4 coordinated players isn't enough damage to overtake 1 wrangled gun >this problem doesn't exist nor get worse when you have multiple wrangled guns
Sure pub engineers aren't often coordinated enough to pull that off but the numbers don't really work if you extend to 12v12. Because then you have the equivalent of 12 players to get 4 sentries if ratios are kept the same, and thats not considering what the other 8 defenders are doing, God help you if theyre actually helping the engineers.
This isn't an issue of 6v6 being different from 12v12, and more an issue that the wrangler combined with the ranger allowed an engineer take on a 1v4 and still survive because of how much effective health the sentry got, despite uber being the intended stalemate busting mechanic.
This, nobody gave a shit until some homosexual decided to cry to his audience about it, which is why all the "arguments" for it being OP are half baked at best.
None of them should be nerfed and we should encourage playsets like demoknight, ambassador spy, bonk scout, phlog pyro as well as other playsets that counter them. Really though removing content thats integral like sniper and crits and maps is a zoomer thing and harkens back to Overwatch and Fortnite which are shitty balanced games and therefore needed content to be expunged.
>None of them should be nerfed and we should encourage playsets like demoknight, ambassador spy, bonk scout, phlog pyro as well as other playsets that counter them.
Balancing around loadout counters is literally the main thing that makes Overwatch bad, and you're saying we should lean into that.
Either that or you're saying we should encourage people to play unviable classes more, which is just dumb.
>Balancing around loadout counters is literally the main thing that makes Overwatch bad
No, in Overwatch you can't change your weapons to fit a certain playset and can't use that to counter a choke point or another playset or a class. you can only change skins in that game. All shitty playsets which are unviable have been filtered out for sets that work, its why you don't see demoknight grenade launcher combo as much compared to a demoknight standard or samurai knight because instead of a grenade launcher you pair it up with Ali baba's wee booties for more turn and greater charge distance.
>No, in Overwatch you can't change your weapons to fit a certain playset and can't use that to counter a choke point or another playset or a class.
It's almost like you can change character at any time to do a similar thing. Wow...
>It's almost like you can change character at any time to do a similar thing. Wow...
Well that's the problem with that game. Instead of dealing with what they had they instead kept adding shit on top of it like more characters further fricking up the balance with shitty ass maps. You have freedom in tf2 because you can stick to a class but change the weapons instead of Overwatch where because of shitty chokemaps and team balance you'd have to switch to a heavier class or medic class. I know towards the end they had to force people into certain classes in Overwatch 2.
>phlog
Only let it charge with its own damage >scorch
Buff it. Make it a primary weapon so we can live out the incendiary cannon dream. >diamondback
Make the crits timed instead of stored >wrangler
Drop the shield immediately if the engineer dies >vax
Make it 3 bars instead of 4. Increase charge amount and duration to normalize the duration/cost from a full meter. >Kunai
On-kill. Blast some obnoxious edm weeb music so morons will pay attention since crit death screams arent enough apparently
>Phlog
It's only annoying when paired with an uber medic at choke points. Get rid of the invulnerability and you'll have a chance to kill him or at least force the medic to pop the uber earlier. >Scorch Shot
Get rid of the secondary flameball and give it more focus on being a nuisance by increasing the knockback instead. >Wrangler
Get rid of the damage shield completely and and also remove the stun duration when switching away from it. >Diamondback/Kunai
Just get your teammates to stop feeding him free kills.
wrangler and vax
just remove the wrangler's shield, and make the vax hold 3 charges instead of 4 (even makes more sense since it's 3 resists at full uber)
phlog is genuinely just crap, the best use of the flamethrower is the airblast and it lacks that, only can be genuinely effective in very tight maps otherwise literally just don't get close to the pyro and shoot at him
dback feels like bs because the average pub is 6 morons, 4 mid players and 2 good players so if one of the good opponents is a spy them they'll have free infinite crits from the morons giving away their back
kunai is too high risk, you can pull off fancy shit sure but when you look at it carefully the kunai spy's playtime is 90% waiting for respawn until they pop off then die again and repeat
scorchshot is just a good weapon, i don't really get the overt hate for this one it's just mildly annoying and not much better than the other flares
Reminder that mains of weak/over-nerfed classes left TF2 a decade ago and the remaining shitters learned that they could call out anything stopping them from dominating the game as 'unfun' or 'overpowered'.
>Reminder that mains of weak/over-nerfed classes left TF2 a decade ago
It's not difficult to find some autistic furry pyro main that's been playing since 2009 and can reflect huntsman arrows on instinct.
The sapper exists because they removed grenades. So just walking up to a gun and blowing it up in a second doesn't happen anymore
As a tool it exists purely so he can actually function in the presence of the texan's aimbot.
Spy should get a Sombra personal teleporter in place of a sapper or a disguise kit, the latter because I can see it being used like the Eureka Effect with a taunt that makes him press some buttons on the cigar holder
a little hard to see teleporter you can place wherever. can be destroyed with one melee hit from any class and breaks upon the user's death. once placed, the spy holds out a little smoke bomb thing. use it to throw it down and teleport to the teleporter, draining 100% of cloak at the same time and making a distinctive noise.
Honestly He should have his own movement gimmick, like he should be able to jump higher then everyone passively if he crouches and slightly higher when he doesnt charge.
>noooo nerf the vacc I headshot the medic and he didn't die NERF IT NERF IT
god damn sniper players are fricking pathetic
Spy is actually the greatest counter to vacc
Macro play, homie
Kite the uber push back with one charge
You have three charges remaining
If you drop vacc to an uber pop its also fine because some light team healing gets you to 75% while the enemy uber is at 50% at best
Vaccs otuer weakness is that it sucks at overhealing so if your entire team is eating shit and you are the only medic, well, sucks to be them I guess
You just HAVE to play aggressive all the time with vacc to leverage your build advantage
>Kite
Here is where your plan falls apart. When I get ubered, I completely ignore the vacc med, instead, I kill and destroy anyone and anything around him. You might survive it, but there is nothing left around you.
If you're so shit at timing stuff that you can't use the Detonator you have a skill issue, and its main use is flare jumping >but you can flare jump with the scorch shot too
The scorch shot's flarejump is pathetic in comparison and is rarely useful >flare gun is difficult to land
Skill issue, again
>Timing
Again, no time for that minigame, I need a fire&forget weapon and not something where I need a visual confirmation and timing. >Jumping
For its height, it's completely situational and doesn't give you any exceptional advantage. >Skill issue
Call it whatever you want, but no one has 100% accuracy. And missing a flare is just too easy and getting fricked for said missing is also too easy.
The Detonator isn't just worth it. You sound like some shitter Pybro who sits at a nest all day and keeps the bottom of the scoreboard warm and cozy
t.1k hour Pyro main
8 months ago
Anonymous
>When I get ubered
That's where YOUR plan falls apart. You won't get ubered or you'll get ubered at an inopportune time because vacc can afford to play up like a moron
8 months ago
Anonymous
Bro, the nest and 3/4 of your team is gone, the cart reached the point. Cool, you and your pocket survived.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You fundamentally don't understand how to play with a vacc and that's fine
Enjoy your uber, if the medic doesn't drop it
8 months ago
Anonymous
I do understand how it works, and this
>Kite
Here is where your plan falls apart. When I get ubered, I completely ignore the vacc med, instead, I kill and destroy anyone and anything around him. You might survive it, but there is nothing left around you.
[...] >Timing
Again, no time for that minigame, I need a fire&forget weapon and not something where I need a visual confirmation and timing. >Jumping
For its height, it's completely situational and doesn't give you any exceptional advantage. >Skill issue
Call it whatever you want, but no one has 100% accuracy. And missing a flare is just too easy and getting fricked for said missing is also too easy.
The Detonator isn't just worth it. You sound like some shitter Pybro who sits at a nest all day and keeps the bottom of the scoreboard warm and cozy
t.1k hour Pyro main
works every fricking time. Every. Fricking. Time.
>1k hour Pyro main
Imagine putting 1k hour into a class and having no fricking clue what weapon is meta on it lmao, I bet you go phlog 90% of the time. Have fun peppering other classes with your shit shot while others play the game
>meta
Who says that is meta and what is not? Listening to buttblased non-pyro players isn't meta, it's tricking you to get less efficient. Who cries so much about the scorch hmm? >Phlog
I play stock, now go back to your engie, he called his dog.
Meanwhile the vac medic and his pocket have done the same with your team, and the medic just got done charging another bubble. Oops lmao, gg no re
Wrong. Since my entire team has diverse damage types. You can't dive in with a vacc, you get fricked. Now cope. Even a single sc**t will frick up your heavy when you're on anything but bullet resistance.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>my team has diverse damage types
Oh no, the vac medic will have to use two charges instead of only one, too bad he has 2 other charges left and takes 10 seconds to regain one lmao
8 months ago
Anonymous
>this is your brain on shit shot
Keep convincing yourself that you have an impact on the game buddy, I'm sure one of these days you'll get someone with your shit shot. Now don't mind me actually getting kills because I can do actual burst damage or have actual movement techs
8 months ago
Anonymous
Stay mad. Now equip your Darwins.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Meanwhile the vac medic and his pocket have done the same with your team, and the medic just got done charging another bubble. Oops lmao, gg no re
8 months ago
Anonymous
>1k hour Pyro main
Imagine putting 1k hour into a class and having no fricking clue what weapon is meta on it lmao, I bet you go phlog 90% of the time. Have fun peppering other classes with your shit shot while others play the game
You can spam stickies and now him down with a Heavy and it won’t do anything if he has common sense. Spy needs to backstab or flank the Medic with your melee.
kunai and vax, everything else is fine. pyro could be deleted as a whole but any less than that will have no effect, pyro's issues are deeper than weapon stats
I'm too old to know what this zoomer shit is from
No you're too young to know.
way too out yourself newmoron
>Released in 2007
>Is Ganker staple from pretty much same time period
>"I'm too old to know what this zoomer shit is from"
Can't tell if you're a troll or a newbie trying too hard.
fpbp
Halo babies from 2001 and onwards don't know what a real FPS is.
>halo
>real fps
it spawned a never ending clone of moronic run and gun with a full auto AR homosexualry like cod and battlefield
if anything the industry would be significantly better off if that shit never happened
I respect the confidence in your lack of reading perception
Bud... it takes some creative eyeballs to read that post as praise of Halo.
The fact that people got upset about you not knowing post-2009 TF2 weapons shows how young the posters here are. To anyone that reads this, if you played TF2 post-Sniper vs Spy update then you're playing trash.
Nice b8 i r8 8/8
Zoomers seething in the replies
some of those items are almost old enough to drive at this point.
Isn't the Vaccinator the only one that's a real problem?
The Scorch Shot is clearly the best secondary for Pyro, but that class is still terrible. Instead of nerfing that, just buff everything else.
Genuinely, they could undo the scorch shot problem overnight, if they rolled back the really stupid bullshit they put in to stop youtubers and comp players from dying to pyros.
All the rest is whatever.
Wrangler can be completely countered by using the enforcer/shooting the engineer
Kunai is countered by not getting next to the spy clearly abusing interp
>A pyro that can't airblast
And everyone has a melee so the vaccinator really isn't that big of an issue, but even then, enforcer.
Literally nobody cared about the diamondback until they nerfed the ambassador
>But I-
Yes, even you about to reply to this post.
I am under no delusion that Eric will ever roll back breaking every Pyro primary, and honestly I'd rather they not set a precedent that they ARE trying "rebalance" updates again, even if it comes with the baggage that every pyro is going to be using the scorch shot, or that the baby face's blaster and Sandman have no real point to equip.
>if they rolled back the really stupid bullshit they put in to stop youtubers and comp players from dying to pyros.
God I hate what they did to pyro so much. The flame particles still barely work, the new airblast feels like an inconsistent wet fart, and the degreaser does so little damage I sometimes feel the syringe gun must out DPS it. Oh well.
>I sometimes feel the syringe gun must out DPS it. Oh well.
I say this with full sincerity
A. The Syringe gun does more damage than 90% of the community realizes
B. Yes, it does outdamage the current flamethrower.
>Wrangler can be completely countered by a 40 damage peashooter that shoots slower
lol
Yes.
It can.
By comparison, direct hit can deal 38 damage at any range.
You couldn't even consistently hit the sentry with the enforcer without getting close.
It's hitscan and has no travel time dummy.
Are you seriously trying to argue that the Direct Hit which requires a straight line of sight to the sentry that you're shooting at
Is better than the enforcer which ALSO needs a straight line of sight to what you're shooting at?
Revolver has bullet spread, remember?
>And everyone has a melee so the vaccinator really isn't that big of an issue
this is dumb
Sure anon, let's see you run with your melee out against the overhealed Heavy with a Vaccinator Medic, you're sure to win!
>THWACK
>THWACK
>AAAAAAAUGH NAAAAUGH DAAAAUGH
>NO!
>THWACK
>HWAAAAAAGH!
based
>Fricks up the loose cannon like 4 times
>Frick it
>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!
>Chops them to death
Love it
That's pretty much how it goes with that loadout. I feel like I kill more people with the axe than my cannon
>Wrangler can be completely countered by using the enforcer/shooting the engineer
As soon as you fire one shot at the Engineer or the Sentry, he's going to turn on you with two Miniguns and a rocket launcher all combined in one weapon with a boosted fire rate, splash damage, AND aim assist.
You have 125hp. Good fricking luck.
Wrangler. It makes Engineer the most broken thing in the game on defense bar none, able to tank hundreds and hundreds of damage and shoot enemies who are trying to corner-peek your Sentry (which is meant to be the balancing weakness of Sentries).
It's fricking stupid and its only purpose is to create extremely oppressive defensive holds. And what does Engineer pay to get it? The Pistol, a sidearm you rarely use anyway.
Remove the damage absorption shield and boosted fire rate and just leave the manual control part.
Vaccinator isn't a problem, it's beneficial for the game. It counters class stacking to encourage varied team comps, counters cheating Snipers, counters Phlog Pyro spam, and encourages players to use very simple teamwork to beat it (stop trying to 2v1).
The problem is with Medic himself, he's overpowered. Unfortunately the game is built around that.
>And what does Engineer pay to get it? The Pistol, a sidearm you rarely use anyway.
I frequently play battle-engie and the pistol is fun to harass people people with from the sidelines. Sometimes you can bait people into chasing you for a lulzy shotgun/widowmaker + mini sentry combo
Let me rephrase; you're rarely using the Pistol when you want to do something that another class can't do better.
Also, Wrangler can harass people from the sidelines too, you pop down a mini and wrangle and get functionally infinite range, higher dps and no need to reload. And aim assist.
In defense of the Wrangler, it is the only real way an engie has of fighting back against a sniper. Without it, they are helpless against any sniper out of sentry range. Scout's have Bonk, Soldiers have Direct Hit, Pyro's have Flare Gun/Scorch Shot, Demo's can carry a shield at the expense of the stickybomb launcher, Heavy's have the Fists of Steel, and Medic's have the crossbow. Everyone else either gets a good long-range weapon or something to improve their defense. What does the engie have? The fricking Pomson?
Sounds more like a sniper problem.
depends
Phlog, scorch shot and diamondback are terrible design-wise. They're absolute crutch weapons, awful to play against and braindead to play with. They're not exactly imbalanced because they're on weak classes, but they still shouldn't exist in their current forms. The game is better off without them.
The Wrangler and Vaccinator are both genuinely overpowered. They require some skill, yes, but you can pretty much lockdown any casual server with good use of them by yourself, with no real counterplay possible.
The kunai isn't either, it's a modestly strong but skill dependent weapon on a weak class, the only reason for it to be on this list is people's natural butthurt about spy. "oh my god he stabbed me and then didn't instantly disintegrate afterwards, please nerf", etc.
>They require some skill, yes, but you can pretty much lockdown any casual server with good use of them by yourself, with no real counterplay possible.
Wrong. Counterplay to vaccinator:
>Play a class with two damage types eg soldier, pyro, engineer, so you can cut the duration of the vacc in half
>Use melee damage to make vacc totally useless, this works best for classes like market gardener soldier, demoknight, and spy
>Juggle them with explosive damage or airblasts
>use bonk to make yourself invincible or fists of steel to make yourself insanely tanky
>Follow a teammate who has a different damage type. For example, a heavy and soldier, whose combined dps will exceed the healing per second that the medic can provide, and they will win the fight even if the med pops both damage resists
Vaccinator actually has more counterplay than stock Ubercharge, where your options are "run away, juggle, or die"
>Vaccinator actually has more counterplay than stock Ubercharge
You can beat both with a tactical tickle.
Good luck using these wherever krits are diabled.
Why would I play on a server for moronic babies?
Tactical tickle is the most based counter, I should have mentioned that.
>Play a class with two damage types eg soldier, pyro, engineer, so you can cut the duration of the vacc in half
>Use melee damage to make vacc totally useless, this works best for classes like market gardener soldier, demoknight, and spy
>Juggle them with explosive damage or airblasts
>use bonk to make yourself invincible or fists of steel to make yourself insanely tanky
These are all bad solutions in practice. The only real answer is to go with another player, which makes sense since a combo is two players anyway.
>These are all bad solutions in practice
They are all fantastic solutions in practice that work, which is why the majority of Medic mains default to using stock, not Vaccinator. And it's not like they aren't willing to use unlocks, as every med uses Ubersaw over stock.
SS isn’t even that good. The whole purpose of it is to give pyro a flare that can stun a bit and so he can weaken targets before the flamethrower can kill. Neither were problems before but since they nerfed afterburn, airblast, combos and flamethrower damage he needs a reliable weapon for afterburn and for stunning at close range since all his other options got gutted. Soldier and sniper are classes with actual problems where everything works for you so if anything needs needs it’s them. Though I’d rather all classes be roughly on par like in 2012 and that they buff all old stuff than more nerfs
i still can't fricking believe the shit pyro got
>meant to be close range ambush specialist
>give him a jetpack that barely functions on any maps but when it does your entire team ignores him and die to him every 20 seconds
>phlog crits basically killing my entire team because they ignore the fact the phlog pyro exists only to die to him for the 4th fricking time
>meanwhile puff and sting is dead in the water, literally nerfed into oblivion to the point i haven't seen it used in 2-3 years
but yeah, jetpack man and confirmed criticals are actually bullshit if your team is brain dead, they just keep dying to the same shit constantly
morons will die to pyro no matter how bad he is and will always b***h and complain he needs more nerfs. He’s the only class who has had everything gutted except health, hitbox and movement speed. They even changed his flamethrower particle graphics to give enemies more of a chance.
well a brain dead team produces many problems so w.e
>The Scorch Shot is clearly the best secondary for Pyro
I have to disagree, the normal flaregun and Detonator are far more useful. One can give you an insane burst of 90 damage (two flare shots on the same squishy = dead squishy), the other gives you great mobility without having to forfeit your secondary weapon altogether (frick the thermal thruster).
All the Scorch Shot does is annoy Snipers, afterburn is really easy to get rid of
Frick off, sniper main.
>Detonator
You have to be extremely quick as Pyro, and there is literally no time to play your little timing game with the detonator.
>Flare gun
It's strong, yes, but it's extremely difficult to land and the punishment for missing is too great.
You don't use the Scorch as a damage tool but rather as a gap closer and irritation.
If you're so shit at timing stuff that you can't use the Detonator you have a skill issue, and its main use is flare jumping
>but you can flare jump with the scorch shot too
The scorch shot's flarejump is pathetic in comparison and is rarely useful
>flare gun is difficult to land
Skill issue, again
>All the Scorch Shot does
Don't forget that you can light multiple targets at once and disrupt with pushback.
The trade off is low damage
>but afterburn
Every single class has a way to put it out or mitigate the effect and tons of map things do the same.
Even the damage isn't really that low if you hit them dead on because the flare has multiple hits.
You need to be standing still to get that second bounce to hit you.
Not necessarily.
I have seen Heavy dodge the second bounce before. It is incredibly easy.
Or be up against a wall and you shouldn’t do that regardless because of crockets and cornering yourself against pyro is dumb.
Even with that the damage is low compared to other projectiles with no fall off like huntsman, normal flares, crockets, etc. It is also slow enough to be airblasted and just like other flares another pyro with a shotgun or the other anti fire stuff in the maps counters it. Also elevation like soldier.
Only if the map has no water, health kits, objectives that heal, no friendly classes that have good secondaries or pyros, no engineer, no dispenser, etc. pyro doesn’t have the mobility to take advantage of the fire at range anyway, every class can just run.
The biggest misunderstanding of that weapon is that people see it as a damage source, it's not, it there to cause irritation.
All those "ways" mostly need a slot, a medic, a dispenser or a medpack. If all the enemy players equip stuff to counter you, then your team will have an advantage.
Stop talking bullshit. Every vacc pocket gets fricking annihilated once he leaves his cozy area the nest and attempts to dive into the enemy team.
>it's meant to cause irritation
Whoop de doo, why kill your enemies when you can irritate them instead? Absolutely brilliant
Fricking with them on range maybe? Slowing down single spies/snipers who attempt to flee but out of your primary range maybe?
>fricking them on range maybe
Which all other flare guns can do
>Slowing down single spies/snipers who attempt to flee
Why do that when you can kill them with the Flare Gun or charge at them with the Detonator?
>Every vacc pocket gets fricking annihilated once he leaves his cozy area the nest
Found your issue, you play with shitters that read that the vacc is OP and get flustered when they have to juggle more than one damage type
>you play with shitters
And you assume that my med is a shitter.
He is.
Ultiduo me
none of them
just buff all of the weapons that suck (which is most of them)
Instead of nurfing them, buff the others
Spy and Pyro are joke classes, git gud I don't care if they wipe the floor with your ass, shitter.
The Short Circuit
You shouldn't be able to sit on the cart and spam giant projectile-deleting energy balls.
Sorry mam. Try using a shotgun next time.
Just airblast it moron
Short Circuit reeks so much. You can just tell the kind of person that makes the choice to be the Short Circuit b***h of their team over all other classes.
Combine a couple SC Engies on the cart with a few Heavy-Vacc Medic combos and you have the single most annoying and difficult to counter tactic in the game.
>If you have the entire team coordinated they're harder to kill
NO
FRICKING
WAY
>its perfectly fine for an entire teams worth of damage to be negated so hard by such a simple low skill method
seriously have a nice day if you believe this.
4 gays joining as uber medics and demos.
Am I reading you right, you're seriously proposing Demo kritz as a counter to SC and Vacc? Fricking lmao.
>Kritz
I said uber
>You're seriously proposing demo... as a counter to SC and Vaccinator
No I was just highlighting how moronic what you were saying was.
Inadvertently you've actually stated the most plausible solution to get rid of Vaccinator medics, heavies, and short circuit engineers squatting on the cart except maybe a couple third degree pyros.
good thing no one on either team plays medic or heavy in the servers I find.
Heavy is actually very fun and a good Heavy is indispensable.
I agree with you, but that doesn't change what I said. If I'm not playing heavy, there's no one on the server playing heavy.
Heavy needs your team to not be room temp IQ window lickers, if your team is all just instantly dying, getting confused and lost then Heavy won't work you'll be overwhelmed at all times and don't have the moment options to do anything about it.
If the team is good, snipers and spies are being dealt with, medic is spreading heals, other classes are fighting with you then Heavy is really fun as he draws a lot of attention away from your other power classes to make plays.
Good sniper on the other team that can't be deal with? Heavy is unplayable
This
They need to rework it again and make it so that the projectile removal has to go through a Cow Mangler charge animation and only works at close range like it used to
I think it'd be cool if instead of deleting projectiles it just slowed them (and maybe reduced power a bit)
spam enough for their speed to hit 0 and they fall to the ground
That would be too difficult with TF2's spaghetti code, plus the general lack of interest in Valve at doing work on the game that still makes them money
Better to just change short circuit so you can't pickup metal from payloads/dispensers, and leave it at that
>because 2 stock hits = a kill right now when you really fricking need it because that scout is gonna kill you
I already told you, no scout with a pulse and more than two brain cells will let you hit them twice with melee. They are clicking you with their Scattergun and you are going to die, all you can do is get a hit in and kill them after your own death.
>Meanwhile you need like 3 shiv hits +5 seconds of bleed. Lmao forget it bro. You're already dead.
You need 1 bodyshot+1 hit+6 sec and they are dead.
You're dead either way. You're facing the game's second strongest closerange class in close range. As one of the weakest closerange classes. Your only option is to roll that 15% crit on first hit, or kill after death which is of similar likelihood of success.
>Because stock hit + SMG is a faster kill than shiv hit + SMG.
If you're running smg, kukri is best.
If you're running razorback, dds, camper etc, shiv or stock are both good.
If you're running jarate, bushwacka is best.
>If you're near your team then the Scout is never going to get near you anyways
Incredibly incorrect. As Sniper you sit where there's a vantage point, and that very frequently means being a distance from your team (who aren't watching you anyway) and vulnerable to flanking by a Scout.
>Only a scout
Scout, Spy, and rocketjumping (therefore not full health) Soldier are the 3 classes you're most likely to fight in melee. And if you're smart you're not even engaging in a melee fight, you're trying to run the frick away.
Shiv lets you track invisible Spies without Jarate, it lets you bodyshot then onehit a Scout, it lets you potentially onehit a Soldier that jumped at you. It's good for those reasons. Simple as.
>You're dead either way. You're facing the game's second strongest closerange class in close range. As one of the weakest closerange classes. Your only option is to roll that 15% crit on first hit, or kill after death which is of similar likelihood of success.
Except that you can't get the oneshot with the shiv. So rolling your 15% is still useless.
>If you're running razorback, dds, camper etc, shiv or stock are both good.
No shiv is shit because 15% oneshot chance or just getting a second melee hit is always better than having to do some bodyshot combo bullshit
>Scout, Spy, and rocketjumping (therefore not full health) Soldier are the 3 classes you're most likely to fight in melee. And if you're smart you're not even engaging in a melee fight, you're trying to run the frick away.
I like that at this point you've basically admitted that the shiv is useless because it puts you in melee fights for longer and you don't want that. Stock is the only alternative to the bushwacka because stock can still do a 15% oneshot.
>Shiv lets you track invisible Spies without Jarate
You track him for 4 seconds and then what? A bodyshot isn't going to kill him due to the reduced damage. You don't have the SMG (because then you'd be running stock). So you got someone tracked for 4 seconds for nothing. Great job lmao.
>it lets you bodyshot then onehit a Scout
This weird combo that still relies on there being no healthpack nearby is still less reliable then getting a 15% or getting 2 hits in.
> it lets you potentially onehit a Soldier that jumped at you
Never in a billion years will a situation like this show up where the soldier is low enough to die to the bleed but not the increased basic melee damage of stock.
Being contrarian doesn't make you smart anon. Damage over time sucks in TF2.
>Except that you can't get the oneshot with the shiv.
From reading this first sentence, which ignores something I've already explained to you twice, it's obvious the rest of your post or any further replies you make aren't worth wasting time on reading.
No anon. You cannot oneshot with the shiv. You MUST combo it with something to kill someone. This is unlike the stock kukri that CAN oneshot with a 15% chance. The kill after death doesn't matter since that requires you to combo. Meanwhile the stock kukri combos with itself because 2 melee hits kills all light classes. And why would you ever want to kill someone after death anyway if you can just fricking kill them now and life instead?
Your dumbass shiv sucks, everyone knows it. You're just experiencing sunk cost fallacy now. Admitting that it sucks and getting it over with is too painful for you.
Short Circuit should just be removed from the game entirely or made comically bad (like costs 200 metal, and all ammo refill is now 1/8th including the resupply locker). It’s genuinely one of the worst designed weapons of all time. Let’s just have Engineer completely dominate his 3 counters for no fricking reason and no significant drawback, making a grand total of Engineer making 5 whole fricking classes unplayable when he’s on defense.
>J-just use a shotgun
Demoman doesn’t even have that option. You are also not killing a Sentry with a fricking shotgun. Not when it both fricking blinds you and when the Sentry takes almost no fricking damage from a shotgun, even at close range where the Sentry will mow you fricking down.
The 65 metal cost is almost nothing considering that a Dispencer will keep you top off almost instantly at Level 3 and instantly if you have multiple Engineers. And even if you couldn’t, that is still less than a 3rd of metal to completely counter any class using projectiles what so ever.
phlog isn't actually good, but most needs reworking
Give the diamondback the ambassador's current damage falloff.
double the length of the ambassador damage falloff so you don't have to have your gun shoved in their ear to get 102 off.
>Give the diamondback the ambassador's current damage falloff.
Why? When was the last time you actually died to one?
It's a mediocre weapon on the weakest class in the game. I'm old enough to remember when it came out in 2013, nobody complained about it ever until Ambassador was nerfed.
Wrangler. The thing has effectively no downsides and a bunch of upsides. Manual aiming is almost always going to be a good thing, it doubles the fire rate, rockets refresh faster, you have a light aimbot and it gets a fricking 66% damage resistance shield. It can keep the DPS upgrades but either remove the shield or reduce it to 25%.
Phlog is fine as it is
Remove stun lock and mini crits from Scorch Shit
Revert Diamondback so that it only gets crits from sapped buildings like it used to
Kunai should you give less health
Make Wrangler shield weaker
Don't know how to rebalance Vac without completely ruining it
>Don't know how to rebalance Vac without completely ruining it
by deleting it or nerfing it so hard no one ever touches it again, quickfix and stock are enough
>meme-fix
Have fun getting random critted during uber.
scorch is good just for dealing with snipers
the problem lies in rock, paper scissors approach to balance, not in specific weapons
Scorch shot can stay, anything that makes sniper mains cry and seethe and piss and shit their pants is based in my eyes.
Fixed your stupid image.
Sniper is a high skill based class that requires advanced players familiar with him, he doesn't deserve a nerf, skilled players earned those kills
Honestly the biggest "nerf" they could do to snipers is a VAC wave.
Especially since they'd all be scrambling to explain how they totally weren't cheating with one of the most glacial anticheats in gaming.
Being able to one shot any class with a hit-scan projectile from a mile away without being able to even SEE the damn sniper as they hide in their own fricking spawn room isn't a fun thing to fight against and takes absolutely minimum thought on the snipers side. At least the spy has to go through an absolute frickload of bullshit to get his insta kills. The sniper just had to have downed some adderall. That's not even going into the various close range options they have, and direct counter tools/weapons to their OWN counter class.
No one is arguing they aren't a high skill class. That's part of the issue. Their skill ceiling is high in terms of requiring precise aim... and that's basically it. As long as you can aim well, you can kill most classes in a one-on-one without them even having a remote chance against you, at any range. It's just not a fun class to fight against since you just turn a corner and die to an enemy you couldn't possibly even know was looking at that location (because the dot is very, very easily hidden). That's really the main issue. It's not even remotely fun to lose against a sniper, whilst against most other classes, there's an actual, enjoyable engagement, even if they can be somewhat one sided.
"It's hard" is no excuse. There's a reason bots and cheaters pick sniper and it's because he's blatantly overpowered. Worse is that sniper clashes with the core design of the game. Every class is close to mid range, close to mid range is where fighting is fun. Sniper being long range clashes with that too much.
It's no surprise that when Sounic tested removing sniper the main statistical difference ended up being more people dying close together in the fun team fights instead compared to more spread out deaths. And the main emotional difference ended up being that people enjoyed the game more.
Scout Solider Spy and even loadout cases like a dragons fury pyro have a higher skill ceiling than sniper.
Scout needs a similar level of aiming, while moving fast both vertically and horizontally and will get rekt if they miss, sniper just reloads in a second
>Hide
>Charge rifle
>Peak for 1 nano second
>Instantly kill 5/9 classes with a body shot and mortally wound the other 4 classes
>Retreat back to cover and charge another shot
It doesn't take a lot of skill to be effective with sniper.
>high skill
this argument doesn't hold up in a game where most of the guns are single fire and require both that and movement
i used to be in the "nerf sniper" camp but now it's just too goddamn funny watching people seethe at actual skill
only snipers are the ones who dont want a sniper class nerfed, figures.
Rocket launchers
That’s not soldier
*removes the charges getting rid of debuffs*
Buff the shit like the pompson or the family buisness that nobody uses.
>Phlog is fine
>Remove minicrits from Scorch Shot otherwise it's fine
>Wrangler is fine
>Vaccinator is AIDS but there's
>Make it so switching weapons
>Nerf the Diamondback to only fire when you have crits and make it so you lose crits when you switch off of it.
>Kunai is fine
I'd honestly save the nerfs for something more deserving like PBBP.
All explosive weapons need their damage cut by at least 25% across the board.
Stickybomb
Rocket launcher
As an Engie player I don't see the point of the Wrangler at all. Having a pistol is much better.
>I don't see the point of the weapon that grants unlimited range, triples the sentry health and allows to choose the target and shoot it with double firing speed
Yeah you're absolutely right, pistol is much better
It's also boring as frick. If I wanted to play as a Sentry I'd play as Heavy.
Even better, you picked the class that sits still and jacks off a Sentry.
>but gunslinger
If I wanted to play Scout I'd play Scout.
The wrangler by far
But honestly more important than nerving OP weapons is buffing the dozens of garbage weapons.
they should just simply remove the phlog from the game entirely
soldier
Nerf phlog
>Phlog
Its fine
>Vaccinator
I think removing resistances on the Medic himself would be the best solution, it makes it into a bit of a Wrangler/Engineer situation where the Medic remains vulnerable while the other has damage resistance.
>Scorch Shot
Just lower the afterburn duration on floor shots
>Wrangler
Its been nerfed enough
>Kunai and Diamondback
Not a real problem just pubstomp weapons that farms morons like frontier justice and eyelander do
remove flame res on vac and give the medic a fire damage vulnerability debuff when equiped
>t. otally not a pyro main
>make wrangler a primary weapon
fixed
>Phlog
the weakest pyro weapon needs a nerf? lmao
>Vaccinator
not really no
>scorch
only snipers cry about this weapon
>diamondback
only snipers cry about this weapon
>wrangler
only snipers... you get the idea
>kunai
literally the weakest spy knife lmao
So yeah, this thread is made by a butthurt sniper that is mad about not being able to sit in the back and click heads all game long. He just took his most hated weapons and put it along some random bullshit so that it doesnt look obvious.
none of those besides the phlog
Reduce sniper base melee damage to 40 so he can't insta kill anyway at close again unless it's a quick-scope head shot. His melee should be used as desecration to finish off weak players who are already damaged from reaching him in the first place
Sniper doesn't need nerfs. His design is unfun to play against, but he's balanced.
He needs a rework. Not nerfs.
sniper is fine but his weapons that make him strong at close range definitely need some nerfs (ie jarate and bushwaka combo)
Jarate needs a nerf to its splash radius size.
Bushwacka on its own is fine.
DDS and Razorback's scissors paper rock game design were a mistake, I would just change DDS to a flat +25HP on wearer. And Razorback make it block one hit of any type from any class on the rear, in exchange for no longer stunning backstabs. So a Spy's gun could remove it.
>phlog
not overpowered you moronic subhuman, position better and enclosed maps don't count as to making a weapon viable, Black person less than 4k hours homosexual
>scorch shot
dogshit, stock shotty is somehow better than this redundant piece of garbage, just use the the detonator which does everything better
>"uh but scroch better because XD knockback on hit"
>>does nothing
>>only works on shitter maps designed for shitters I.E pl_goldrush or any map that's tighter than your mom's caverns
't provide mobility like the detonator does
>wrangler
shield only provides 50%+ extra hp
>vac
charges cost 35% instead of 25%, crits are no prevented and charges only provide 70% resistance to the selected damage type
>diamond
minicrits with 1 charge, crits with 2 more more charges
>kunai
-80 hp instead of -65
>-80 hp instead of -65
Does nothing, you already die from random sneeze in your direction before your first backstab
-30 on max overheal would be way more impactful
just make it so it doesn't give you 75 minimum plus whatever your stab target had. make it give you only 70 minimum plus what your target had as a percentage. so no difference between a full health scout and a full health heavy, you get 70+70, 140. so only if you're full health does it bring you up to 210. a fully overhealed enemy would give 70+105.
if it's still too good just reduce the minimum health to 35, so stabbing a fully-healed enemy gives you 35+70.
really, spy's over knives need buffs more than the kunai needs a nerf.
Anyone who thinks the scorch shot isn't the best flaregun is absolutely delusional. Setting people on fire at range in an AEO is better than anything any other flaregun provides.
In a version of the game where pyro's primaries aren't total dogshit, the flaregun's a better finisher, and the detonator provides better utility.
Scorch shot is only worth using in a version the game where the flamethrower is shit.
And the other weapon this applies to? Is the Sharpened Volcano Fragment. Which is just sitting there waiting for other people to notice how much of a fricking menace you can be using it and the flare gun.
Total delusion.
Combo pyro got killed off because pyro being good isn't allowed. It's better to run the stock flamethrower now and just use the scorched shot as your long range harass tool.
Suit yourself man, I'll be taking my 142 base damage combos + 60 afterburn AND melee crit chance all very easy AND possible, because the sharpened volcano fragment doesn't have an aids holster penalty, or eats all of your afterburn.
>Deals four times more damage than you by just spamming at a choke point
Up until the enemy team has a pyro, or a medic, or an engineer.
In the mean time, what I'm doing is nearly as or nastier than the classic axtinguisher.
>Enemy has an engineer, or heavy
>Pyro becomes completely useless anyways
I can still almost immediately trash everything but a pyro, demo soldier or heavy.
And after a second flare the only thing safe is the heavy and the pyro.
>Beep beep beep
>140 DPS aimbot with afterburn immunity annahiliates you before you can even get in range
>Okay but what if you run into the sentry
I simply don't
You might.
>Just don't go to the objective bro
Lmao ok
Look buddy we can play this stupid arms race of you trying to invent situations where the SVF/Flare Gun combo doesn't work.
Or you can start infuriating enemy gamers to a degree that they have never been upset before.
The choice is yours.
Nothing more infuriating than having your movement destroyed and afterburning the entire team.
What you're describing basically only works in payload.
Guess what the ENTIRE enemy team is standing on during payload.
Attack defend laughs at you
>sharpened volcano fragment
but for what purpose? why not just light someone with the degreaser then pop them with the flare gun
Because every flamethrower has atrocious damage output.
they feel decentishenough. but maybe i'm still reeling from the combo pyro nerf. i always wrote off the volcano gayment but i'll have to give it a try
But detonator is fun as frick
rocket launcher, gunboats, stickybomb launcher
>Phlog
Is only oppressive if combined with a pocket, probably the best class/weapon combo to pair with an uber in pubs. However the real issue is building mmph which is usually done with the...
>Scorch Shot
It's a single shot rocket launcher that ignites people instead of blowing them up, and it's a secondary that reloads while unequipped. It's way to rewarding, and when paired with the pholg it's very very powerful for little to no effort, needs a nerf.
>Vaccinator
It's a buggy piece of shit and being able to negate an entire classes source of damage is bullshit no matter which way you put it, there is no interaction. The only time it's based is when it's used in huge sightlines against oppressive snipers.
>Diamondback
Yes, just like many of pyro's weapons it rewards you with crits for doing the core basics of your classes job and needs to be reworked or nerfed. It's stupid.
>Wrangler
Yes. It's OP. 33% increase in effective max HP with increased DPS if the wielder can bother to aim near someone.
>Kunai
No. Just no, it's not OP. Turn around, spycheck.
if you hate phlog you should stop playing choke maps like dustbowl
>Phlog
It is situational and has actual difficulty building mmph on it's own. Literally any class who is somewhat competent is capable of countering a phlog pyro even on maps where it shines.
The only thing that makes phlog worth using is
>Scorch Shot
No, overpowered isn't the proper word to describe this weapon. It simply does too many things at once. It explodes, it sets opponents on fire, it bounces back on impact exploding a second time, it has knockback and deletes stickies for some reason.
Scorch shot literally never kills anybody, only annoys the enemy or helps someone who is using Phlog to build uber.
>Wrangler
Literally just get rid of the shield, having a sentry aim for you is broken as frick as it is.
>Vaccinator
No problems with it.
Every Uber is OP and is meant to be so. They're meant to be game changers and Vac in some capacity is either the weakest or strongest Uber. If the medic doesn't know how to toddle damage resistances then it is the worst uber.
>Diamondback
I think it gains crits a bit easy. Remove gaining crits on kills entirely and purely on buildings.
I genuinely wanna boil when I hear people say
>He gains crits by doing spy things
Well shit, Engineer gets crits with Frontier Justice by doing Engineer things too.
>Kunai
Nothing wrong with it.
Only people that complain about it are absolute noobs that can't kill the absolute weakest class in the game.
>>Well shit, Engineer gets crits with Frontier Justice by doing Engineer things too.
No, he gains crits by destroying his gun, which is the opposite of what he's normally supposed to be doing. There's a tradeoff: your gun goes down, you gain crits. When you don't have crits, you have a worse shotgun because of low ammo. Diamondback gains crits for backstabs, which every spy is trying to get anyway, and actually has fewer downsides than the Ambassador, which rewards crits for good aim.
>No, he gains crits by destroying his gun,
Or the enemy destroying your gun.
>Diamondback gains crits for backstabs, which every spy is trying to get anyway and actually has fewer downsides than the Ambassador
Fewer written downsides. Ask yourself the question: why was almost no Spy using diamondback when Ambassador was unbanned?
Because it takes 30 seconds to a minute of running around invisibly wasting time to get each backstab or sap, assuming you even achieve it without dying in the process. Which is an incredibly inefficient way of getting crits. I could pick Sniper and walk out of spawn, charge for just 3 seconds and have access to a 150/450 damage shot.
Compared to getting 102 damage once, per 30-60+ seconds.
Danger Shield and Razorback. There’d probably be much less seething about Sniper if his counter classes could actually do their job.
A razorback sniper is just as much a free kill for spy as a non-rb, just need to not drop all your spaghetti landing 2 shots after your free first one.
I have 8k hours
>phlog crits now prevent the user from being ubered/vaccinated by a medic
>diamondback now grants 5 seconds of crits on backstab and refreshes the timer on critical revolver kills instead of crits just being stored forever, also this should just be how the stock revolver works because spy is about burst damage and he currently sucks at it beyond getting his one stab
>vaccinator locks into the resistance type you used when you deploy a bubble, and just converts incoming critical hits into regular hits instead of reducing crit damage to almost 0
>wrangler should make the user take way more aimpunch and disable the aim assist for a moment so you can shoot at the engie to throw the sentry off aim, and when putting away the wrangler/dying the shield should wear off before the sentry wakes up again so you can kill the engie and then reliably kill the gun to penalize it
>kunai is fine, people just b***h because it benefits facestabs more than usual which makes them mad either way
>scorch shot is fine on every half decent map that has well placed kits to counter afterburn, doesn't really need changes
>I have 8k hours
8k hours and you still die to Diamondback enough to think a weak weapon on the game's worst class warrants a nerf?
>not understanding how the vacc works
>Ridiculously overcomplicated solution to Wrangler which wouldn't even balance it
Oh you're moronic
>Wrangler
-Sentry can't be fixed while wrangled
>Scorch Shot
-Reduced blast radius
>Kunai
-cooldown of lifestel
>Diamonback
-minicrits instead of crits get 2 instead of one on backstab
-lower firing speed
-no damage penalty
Others are fine
Classes in order of their fundamental importance to the gameplay of TF2
>Engineer
Without Engineer all asymmetrical gamemodes would suck. Engineer is the one class that stops the attacking team from just running in like headless chickens over and over and winning the war of attrition with their superior respawn time. Engineer forces downtime where individual skirmishes can happen and both team can build up for the inevitable teamfight. The point of teamfights often is to take down / defend the engineer and his buildings.
Teleporters and dispensers allow for more creative map design as ammo packs and respawn rooms can have a greater variance in their positioning and quantity due to Engineer picking up the slack.
>Medic
Medic capitalizes on the downtime that Engineer creates. He and the class he ubers become the centerpiece of the upcoming teamfight. Is the most important counter to Engineer.
>Soldier, demo
Generalists who are important to have on both teams as the primary combat classes. Both are great at taking down the engineer, amazing uber targets for the medic. Games are the best with a healthy pool of them
>Heavy, scout
Less to say here. These just aren't as important to the overal flow of the game and can often be replaced with a demo or soldier without much changing, but demo and soldier cannot be changed by one of these in the same way. Heavy can be an important roadblock, scout does punish a lack of engineers.
>Spy
Changes how the game is played emotionally by causing paranoia, but doesn't really do anything aside from that.
>Pyro
Pyro can pretty much always be replaced by any other combat class and nothing would change.
>Sniper
Actively harmful to the game by conflicting with the core combat design (close to mid range). Yet his presence rarely influences the outcome of games.
I'd go as far as saying that TF2 would still be a good game if it had only engineer, medic, demo, and soldier in it. You could even remove either soldier or demo from that list, as long as one of the is still there. But you would probably miss heavy and scout for the niche's they fill.
And if just pyro, spy, and sniper were removed from the timeline nobody would miss them or want what they offered. Everything Pyro does can be done by Heavy. The one thing that's truly unique to sniper and spy (insta kills) is a thing the game could do without.
phlog by mile
I feel like I HAVE to use phlog and scorch shot as pyro because valve absolutely gutted flamethrower damage and dots, otherwise I'm just an airblast bot
Anyone saying the kunai is shit and doesn't just completely turn the spy into a braindead class without having to worry about escape plans, (since he has the second highest speed and second highest health in the game after a backstab) is stupid.
Literally all you have to do is not play like a moron against what is essentially a basic b***h 2b2t player with a kill aura.
Hell if you've JUST spawned in you can frick him over by outing him with your spawn wallhacks.
This homosexual can backstab my teammates and revolver me with usually more health and speed and then get away with it moron. This spans way beyond your stupid backstab zoomer speak kill aura analogy.
I use it when playing MvM for this exact reason (With the C&D, of course)
None of them. TF2 isn't competitive and none of these weapons are so dominating in a 12v12 format that warrants any of them getting a nerf. They'd just become unusable dogshit. See the Caber and the Sandman. Why do people insist on trying to balance a party game for a competitive 6v6 mode when that's just not what the fricking game was made for?
I haven't played tf2 since 2009 but for some reason lately every time I see a thread about it I feel like trying it again, is it worthed?
Have the starting weapons gotten powercrept to oblivion or are they still viable?
Stock is always viable, yes, including stock melee. Only one that isn't is Pyro's and even then basically all of pyro's primaries are ass.
No, you can complain about Valve for a lot of their balance decisions. But stock weapons are still among the best for most classes. The only exception is the melee slot where a unlock is almost always better, but that's just the melee slot.
The only exception for stock being the best is:
>Heavy
This is the most solid and blatant. Tomislav, Sandvich, Gloves or running urgently is the overal best loadout. But the Sandvich is the real difference maker here. Tomislav VS stock is close.
>Demoman
This is VERY close, but the very best demoman players believe that the Iron bomber is better than the stock grenade launcher. But like I said. VERY CLOSE.
>Medic
The ubersaw is obviously and by far the best melee. And the crossbow is usually the best primary. But on medic this matters much less.
On every other class stock is either the best or equal to the best.
The demoman is out of date since the iron bomber was outed as having a frickhuge hitbox and comp players were pretending it was for "more skilled usage" of the lack of rollers.
Now it's basically a sticky launcher for demoknights that want to blast jump.
Good demo players still think the Iron bomber is better just because having no rollers = more likely to hit and it also has the grenade jumping advantage. The blast radius nerf isn't big enough to matter in most cases, but the roller buff is definitely noticeable.
The math is simple. The gain damage of having more consistent rollers is higher than the damage loss of having reduced splash radius. And the easier grenade jumping is an additional perk.
The round grenades are also more consistent in source engine air resistance calculation bullshittery even with the hitboxes now being the same. So the Iron bomber is more accurate on average.
>running sandwich when banana exists
Medium healthpack for medic > small healthpack
medic has health regen
not that it matters since using the banana is like having a portable lvl3 dispenser on you
>Stock vs. Tomislav
literally boobs vs. ass, might be the greatest debate in tf2 history when it comes to weapon balance
Hell no. I'd say iron bomber vs stock or sandvich vs banana is boobs VS ass. Tomislav is the only primary unlock in the game that I'm confident is objectively better than stock (though not by that much).
>Close range, not reved up
Tomi wins from stock because it revs up faster
>Close range reved up
Stock wins, but JUST BARELY and only if you're pretty much point blank
>Any other range, reved up or not
Tomi wins because the accuracy bonus is better than the fire rate nerf.
>Silent rev
Doesn't matter a lot, but very nice in some cases. Never a downside.
The Tomislav is an abomination of a weapon that never should have been added by the way. They had to opportunity to give heavy an LMG weapon instead that functions differently from the miniguns but they chose to just make a fast minigun which is obviously going to be the best one.
Eh stock has a lot of upsides that play well with how Heavy is played and most of the time you should be fighting people within the range that the stock shines at:
>better damage within 500ish hammer units
>better able to handle 2+ opponents who are nearby each other
>better able to deal with sc**ts - one of the best anti-heavy strats with any class is to get up in his face and mess with his tracking, and the minigun helps with this immensely
>has an easier time clearing stickies
>easier dealing with spies
Heavy has a small effective range, and I prefer becoming strong in that niche rather than trying to branch into being a more ranged class.
Also,
>sandwich and banana
I mean what's there to discuss? Use banana when you're alone and sandvich when you have a medic. And even then you should always use banana in casual since medics are non existent and you can throw it to anyone who's bleeding or on fire.
damage within 500ish hammer units
Not really. Stock is only objectively better at like 100 units. More specifically the tomislav is always better at any range where your opponent is far enough away that his model doesn't entirely take up the aiming reticle. And only when already pre reved. Tomislav's better rev is cancels most of Stock's damage advantage at close range. And at longer ranges the accuracy is better than the fire rate.
able to handle 2+ opponents who are nearby each othe
Focussing one down quickly then moving onto the other is always better than tickling both.
able to deal with sc**ts
I can kinda see this, but if your aim is good then this doesn't really matter.
>>has an easier time clearing stickies
Barely matters.
dealing with spies
For tracking but not for killing.
The Tomislav is superior close range when you're unreved and it's superior mid to long range in all cases. Stock having this one niche case of being better at pointblank when reved is the defintion of just being outclassed. Stock is only really "better" if your aim is bad so the increased accuracy is actually a downside on you.
shut up dude, the only time a tomislav is going to lose is if both heavies are revved up right next to each other
i should know i refused to switch for the longest time and tomislav accuracy is actually bullshit
Stock is usually the most powerful loadout on any given class, with a few exceptions. It doesn't really matter though, since a single key will net you every weapon in the game plus a few cool cosmetics.
Best loadouts
>Scout
Soda popper and pbpp are the tiniest bit better than stock, any melee that's not sandman is viable
>Soldier
stock is usually best but cow mangler and gunboats are situationally better; escape plan/disciplinary action/market gardener are all better than stock
>Pyro
stock flamer is usually the best, detonator or scorch or flare or panic attack are slightly better than stock shotgun, and powerjack or backscratcher are clearly better than stock
>Demo
Stock Stickies are king, iron bomber is a tiny bit better than stock, and all melees are viable except caber
>Heavy
Stock for small maps and tomislav for long maps, sandvich or banana secondary, GRU or FOS melee
>Engie
Stock is best, Wrangler or Short Circuit, and stock but other wrenches have situational uses especially gunslinger
>Medic
Stock, Crossbow, Ubersaw. Every time. Only exception is if your team are morons who can't protect you at all.
>Sniper
Stock/Bazaar Bargain, Razorback/Jarate/DDS/stock depending on which class is focusing you, and any melee is viable except maybe shahanshah.
>Spy
Facing competent players? All Stock is your best bet, unless they're on guard, in which case change class if you want to be useful, or L'Etranger and Cloak and Dagger if you are willing to wait while being useless.
Facing idiots? It doesn't matter what you use, you'll win anyway.
>Sniper
>and any melee is viable except maybe shahanshah.
The shiv is so objectively inferior it's not even funny. Why would you want to do 50% less damage and miss out on oneshot crits for bleed?
The only good melees for sniper are stock and bushwacka. Use bushwacka when you're running jarate or carbine, otherwise you use stock. Shahanshah isn't worth it because it doesn't cross any thresholds when the condition is met.
>The shiv is so objectively inferior it's not even funny. Why would you want to do 50% less damage and miss out on oneshot crits for bleed?
Chasing down persistent Spies who pop back into invis, it's also good for finishing off Scouts so even if they kill you, you die. I've spent a fair bit of time using it, and it's gotten me multiple kills on enemies who 65 damage wouldn't be enough for, but 81 will.
Soda Popper works out to more DPS than the Scattergun in the short term and in the long term, while Scatter is only better in mid duration fights. Plus, you get the ability to literally fly after a couple of fights. Popper is slightly better.
>The whole classes are broken
No. The game is balanced around Soldier. Demo is only very slightly too strong on defense. The only broken class is Medic, but by intention.
>but I think the pistol is better at being a secondary as it has better range and accuracy.
The range and accuracy are identical, read the stats. The only advantage Pistol has over PBPP is a 25% bigger clip size.
Backburner isn't as good as Degreaser or Dragon's Fury, unless your enemies are very dumb and keep letting you flank them.
you are moronic
Not an argument. Cope, mald and seethe. Any further replies or non replies are an admission by you that you are the one who is actually moronic, as well as gay, a troon and shit at TF2.
>Chasing down persistent Spies who pop back into invis, it's also good for finishing off Scouts so even if they kill you, you die. I've spent a fair bit of time using it, and it's gotten me multiple kills on enemies who 65 damage wouldn't be enough for, but 81 will.
Just dealing 65 damage instantly is better in nearly all these cases. And now you're also missing out on half the reason to even pull out a melee weapon, the chance to deal 195 instead. Worthless.
>And now you're also missing out on half the reason to even pull out a melee weapon, the chance to deal 195 instead.
You can still crit for 98 + 48 bleed for a total of 146 damage, which will kill many things in just one melee hit. Idk what to tell you anon, I've found it secured me multiple kills I know stock wouldn't have gotten, I never felt like "if only I had stock I wouldn't have died".
>You can still crit for 98
Wow. That doesn't oneshot anything. Great. Now the guy you wanted to kill can run off and find a health pack. Or if it's a soldier/pyro/demo/heavy/medic/gunslinger engie they can literally just tank the damage.
Also spies can survive if because cloaking the duration of all status effects in half so it's not even good versus spies. Just go for the 15% chance to oneshot instead, unironically more reliable.
>I've found it secured me multiple kills I know stock wouldn't have gotten
This is just wrong. Literally just hit the dude again or finish them with a no-scope of the rifle. If you actually think the Shiv is good you're blatanly moronic.
>This is just wrong
Okay, I'll go back and tell those people I killed that they can un-die.
>Just hit them again
How do I hit a Scout again who is in the process of meatshotting me exactly? Explain that.
50 bodyshot + 33 shiv + 48 bleed will kill a Scout.
50 bodyshot + 65 kukri will not kill a Scout.
I have killed numerous Scouts after death this way. Assuming you can get two hits in with Kukri then sure stock is better, but that relies on the Scout being BAD enough to let him hit you with a melee weapon two times in a row.
That scout dying to the bleed without getting a health pack somewhere isn't worth this one very niche situation you're forcing yourself in. Really, if you're a sniper and there's a scout up close to you fricking try to quickscope him instead of pulling out your melee.
The shiv is also worse if you have the SMG equipped BTW. Didn't feel like mentioning that until this point because it might not have been applicable. If you use the SMG you absolutely don't want the shiv. You want to bab them with stock so your SMG can finish them off quicker.
Either way, you having to force these weird scenarios where there are no healthpacks, dispensers, or medics nearby, the guy you're attacking is specifically a scout, sniper, moron spy who doesn't use cloak, or engineer without the gunslinger, and you wouldn't rather just try to oneshot them with a random crit or get a guaranteed oneshot with the bushwacka is so convoluted and specific that you can just call it a downgrade. And for what? Getting a kill on some guy when you're dead? That scout blasted your ass back to the respawn room 8 seconds ago.
>That scout dying to the bleed without getting a health pack somewhere isn't worth this one very niche situation you're forcing yourself in
I think that a scout not being able to find a healthpack in 6 seconds is arguably even more common than getting a crit with melee (15% of the time) which is what you need for stock to be worth it over shiv.
>Either way, you having to force these weird scenarios where there are no healthpacks, dispensers, or medics nearby
They're not weird scenarios. You're playing Sniper, which automatically means you're sitting far away from the enemy's Medic and Dispenser, in your team's backline. The Scout flanked behind your team to reach you. If he goes for the healthpack he's probably going to have to fight one of your allies for it while bleeding, assuming it's not already been taken. Either way he dies to bleed unless he got lucky and the healthpack is less than 6 seconds away, not taken, and nobody shoots at him on the way there.
>Or guaranteed one shot with bushwacka
Then you give up SMG and also take more damage yourself, you may not even live to get the first hit off at all. Shiv doesn't make you physically squishier.
>I think that a scout not being able to find a healthpack in 6 seconds is arguably even more common than getting a crit with melee (15% of the time) which is what you need for stock to be worth it over shiv.
Lmao no
Stock is already worth more than shiv by default because 2 stock hits = a kill right now when you really fricking need it because that scout is gonna kill you. Meanwhile you need like 3 shiv hits +5 seconds of bleed. Lmao forget it bro. You're already dead.
>Then you give up SMG
If you're running SMG you should always run stock instead. Because stock hit + SMG is a faster kill than shiv hit + SMG.
>you may not even live to get the first hit off at all
Bro bushwacka only gives fire vulnerablity. That doesn't matter. If a pyro gets in close and you whip out the shiv you're actually more dead then if you had the bushwacka + jarate. You're not gonna do shit with the shiv, but you might oneshot him with Jarate + bushwacka.
If it's survival you want the shiv is always a detrimental pick since it takes longer to kill and thus gives the enemy more chances to kill you.
>They're not weird scenarios, etc.
If you're near your team then the Scout is never going to get near you anyways which means the shiv is wasted because the stock kukri is better vs Spy.
If you're not near you team you're near a health/ammo pack because you need that. The scout will kill you (because you can't defend yourself due to shit damage) and pick up the health pack.
Also, keep in mind. All of this BS you're saying applies JUST to a Scout. Only a scout. You're never getting in melee range of any other 125 class except spy and spy can just cut the bleed duraiton in half. Against any class above 125 health you're just tickling them. Good luck taking down a soldier, pyro, or demo with the shiv bro.
>Scout
lol Scattergun is still the best by a fricking mile
Scattergun is better than the soda popper. Quick-Fix and Kritzkrieg have enough situational uses where they should be put alongside the stock Medi-gun. Razorback and DDS are crutches. Having headphones makes up for the former and map knowledge counters the latter. Jarate and stock SMG are the best picks for sniper. Spy should just be change class in general; but otherwise, he's one of the only classes where most of his weapons are in a good spot. As long as you aren't running the enforcer, you are good.
I main scout, pyro and spy. So let me respond about those
The absolute best load out is scatter, pistol, and atomiser. How much the map opens up to you with an extra jump should not be underestimated. I used to be a pretty boy's boy but I think the pistol is better at being a secondary as it has better range and accuracy. The pretty boy's is better as a close range back up weapon.
Stock flamethrower is the best followed closely by the back burner. Det or stock shotty for secondary but for pure killing power the shotgun is king. It has better range than the panic attack which is important for the pyro. There's never a time where the powerjack is a bad choice. If you have no med the back scratcher is amazing as you can two shot a heavy if you get a crit.
Full stock is my go to, the revolver is a very important tool for spy and should be used almost as much as your knife. Invis watch is simply the best watch: great mobility and great for getting into enemy lines. L'Etranger and Your Eternal Reward is something I switch to to bust nests and is actually a very good loadout (the L'Etranger is simply a must for using the YER).
Why not Winger?
It's just not a good pistol when it comes to killing things due to the low clip size. And increased jump height simply isn't as good as an extra jump as extra jumps make you more agile. Winger isn't a bad weapon just not top tier. If I'm running neither the atomiser nor Force-a'-Nature, maybe I'd consider the winger
I don't think it's OP or anything but god do I hate fighting the dead ringer. There's nothing more frustrating than having a spy fail his stab and then still get off with barely a slap on the wrist because he whips out his get out of jail free stopwatch. Like half the time the spy will literally just stare at me, waiting for me to shoot him, and because of how insane the damage reduction and speed is, unless i'm playing pyro and stick to his ass like glue there's nothing I can realistically do to kill him then and there. I'm forced to waste time and track him down and kill him "again" in an infuriating minigame. Again I don't think it's actually OP or even that good, it's just a waste of time and I hate that.
>I'm forced to waste time and track him down and kill him "again" in an infuriating minigame
No you aren't. Just ignore him. Go capture the fricking objective while he jacks off invisibly. He's not accomplishing anything and his team is effectively down 1 person.
You can kill him after his team loses and the humiliation round starts.
Chasing dead Black person spies is literally the equivalent of replying to bait on Ganker.
>Phlog
mmph can only be built from primary damage (no more brain-dead scorh shot spam to build mmph)
>Wrangler
Remove the damage resistance or severely reduce it
>Diamondback
Crits obtained only last 5 seconds, similar to the KGB
>Diamondback
Either tweak the min and max HP you get on backstab or increase the HP decay rate
>Vaccinator and Scorch Shot
Annoying but idk what to change
Meant Kunai, not Diamondback twice
None. I'm fricking sick of nerfs. Buff some other weapons so there are some better sidegrades in the game. Bring back the old Sandman and BFB. Bring back the old Sydney Sleeper. I'm so fricking sick of dogshit nerfs and reworks that do nothing but suck all the fun out of the game.
YES I AM STILL MAD ABOUT THE YER REWORK
>Bring back the old Sandman and BFB
This poster is terminally moronic and their opinion should be dismissed.
>pyro tries to reflect jump towards me
>pull out reserve shooter
the vaccinator. it is a straight upgrade.
Vacc is only a straight upgrade if your team consists of 8 spies and nothing else. Any half-decent team will have a wide enough spread of damage types that the Vacc is situational at best outside of making Snipers with pocket meds slightly more annoying.
ITT
wrangler and my favorite class is engineer.
>wrangler only counters sniper
post hours
>wrangled sentry with engineer repairing it
vs
>medic healing heavy with full vaccinator
Who would win?
Heavy just has to kill the two Engies.
Out of these, probably the Scorch Shot. Even as a Pyro, it doesn’t feel fun to just blindly shoot in someone’s general direction and set them on fire. The double-hit mechanic is a pretty cool idea though, so if it only exploded after hitting someone first, I think that would be acceptable.
The other secondaries are shit. The only other viable option is panic attack
Panic attack isn't viable on pyro because he's already a close range class, and the PA is only good at close range. You're better off using the reserve shooter, since it has the quick switch benefit and lets you minicrit airborne targets, while not sacrificing the longer range potential.
Panic attack works best on the other classes who are inherently long ranged, like soldier and sniper and engi.
>Even as a Pyro, it doesn’t feel fun to just blindly shoot in someone’s general direction and set them on fire.
I disagree, it feels very fun.
And setting people on fire isn't really good when it does poor damage and you're always only a few seconds away from something that will put out fire in the average game of TF2.
I could just pick Demoman and spam stickies in the general direction of the enemy and it would kill them outright with 120 damage, rather than tickling them for 8 damage per second.
>the only ones complaining about the vaccinator are sniper mains who are seething they cant insta kill someone from the other side of the map with no reprecussions
all of these are fine its just the general brain power, coordination ability, and skill of the average tf2 player has tanked
What maps are even good for Wrangler? Most engagements happen in close range anyways, manual aim adds human error, if you don't have a second pocket engi then you risk downtime during firefight whenever you have to repair, and being tied to your sentry in general means that you're not fighting yourself or doing other engi shit. Aren't you just putting all your eggs into one basket?
All of them. You're never forced to switch to Wrangler in situations where it's a risky choice. Seeing as you never really need the Pistol, you can have it in your loadout and leave it for only times where it's obviously advantageous, like:
>Someone is corner peeking your Sentry. Shoot rockets to hit them around the corner
>Pyro is baiting your rockets to reflect them into your lv3; simply equip Wrangler and the rockets won't fire
>Uber is incoming. Wrangle your sentry to waste more of their uber time in killing it and possibly even knock them back with well placed rockets
>Sniper has a long sightline on you somehow. Snipe him back
>Trolldier/Demoknight jumped onto your sentry and are abusing its turn rate. Make it point up and shoot them
>Bonk Scout is trying to kill you with your own Sentry or distract it from your allies. Wrangle it to shoot the correct target
It multiplies your sentries effective health by 3, so you could effectively stuff an uber if you were competent enough to handle aim assist instead of aimbot for your sentry. They nerfed it so that repairs to your sentry take the same penalty, but even now so long as you can get an explosive class or pyro to juggle a player, the wrangler can still keep your sentry healthy enough to survive an uber from most classes.
Am I the only pyro who finds the phlog actually kinda rough to use? I feel so vulnerable without airblast
>Giving phlog temporary uber durring mmph taunt
I dare any Black person here to defend this moronic change
>puts sticky trap while you're taunting
>positions right behind you to insta backstab you
>revs right in your face to basically insta kill you
>aims right at your head to insta head shot you
>taunt kills you with ubersaw
git gud
Where is darwins?
>not a single soldier or demo weapon
HAHAHAHAHAHA homosexual
name one soldier or demo weapon that is actually broken
the whole classes are broken
The direct hit is fricking aids.
>scout giving you trouble? Just click on him at close range and insta kill him with an almost impossible (at close range) to dodge projectile
>Pyro reflecting your rockets? Just use the direct hit which is way harder to reflect, and actually impossible to reflect on reaction at close range
>Engi? You can now two shot all his builds at range
>Heavy on the point? You can now out range him even harder
Soldiers think just because they actually have to aim for once they should get an instant kill weapon
giving you trouble? Just click on him at close range and insta kill him with an almost impossible (at close range) to dodge projectile
Why is the Scout, the fastest class in the game, in close range of you in the first place? Why didn't he press S and go to midrange where he can shoot you and easily sidestep your projectiles with their tiny teleporter-sized splash radius?
Direct Hit makes you vastly worse against any competent Scout, which is why nobody uses it in top level play despite it being unbanned for like a decade.
>Pyro reflecting your rockets? Just use
Your Shotgun that comes free with the class.
>>Engi? You can now two shot all his builds at range
Considering that he gets Wrangler and Short Circuit, this is absolutely fine.
Plus, that's only against buildings which he isn't actively repairing. If he's repairing them you aren't going to twoshot them. As with stock you'll need to slowly grind them down, but unlike stock, you can't deal good splash damage the whole nest and the Engineer with each rocket you fire.
>Heavy on the point? You can now out range him even harder
Even Heavy can usually sidestep rockets being fired from long range, because you have no splash radius.
>why is scout, a class with a shotgun, in close range anyway
Correct. It's not like you stop having damage at midrange. You get up close against Demomen and Medics and Snipers and Spies and distracted Heavies and Engineers who have no Sentry. You stay at midrange against Soldiers, Pyros, and Heavies who saw you.
This already applies when fighting stock Soldier. Stock Soldier can click in the general vicinity of your feet at close range two times and you will die, no matter how good you are.
The only thing I can only give you truthly thats aids is the Sentry damage the frickin thing does it There is no way that the soldier should destroy sentries better then the demoman or spy especially since its so low effort. Honestly what you should be complaining about is Soldiers gunboats and how it basically makes him easy mode at high level play
>Soldiers gunboats
Not having a shotgun makes him reflect fodder
If soldier manages to destroy your buildings so easily then you're building positioning is shit
>homosexual downplaying
No b***h it doesnt matter if you're well positioned or not the soldier will almost always delete your buildings with minimal effort even if your building is positioned correctly, It is litterally that brainless.
>should be tweaked, isn't too broken but is a bit better than it should be
kunai and scorch shot
>isn't even OP
phlog and diamondback
>what the frick was valve thinking
wrangler and vaccinator
The diamondback should be in the "should be tweaked, isn't too broken but is a bit better than it should be" category.
It's a better Ambassador at this point.
You can remove the fire rate nerf from the diamond back and give it a clip size nerf instead and it would be fine.
Diamondback shouldn't give crits on backstabs and the wranglers damage resist is too high.
That's all I really have to say. I would rather discuss buffing some of the shittier weapons, or just outright reworking them.
I don't want to buff any of the stock melees. That's just powercreep.
Most of the melee weapons are balanced around stock, so you would have to make heaps of changes to get everything to the level of the few most powerful outliers.
Stock Soldier is one of the best classes in the game as it is. It's absolutely fine that he should have downsides like his stock melee not being very useful for killing.
If you want a Soldier who has a good melee weapon for killing then it should come with downsides that properly balance it. Equalizer is a good candidate for that.
>Diamondback shouldn't give crits on backstabs
people who've never used the Diamondback before the backstab buff shouldn't talk
The Diamondback
>Backstabbing or Sapping builds meter instead of building a fixed number of crits
>Your next shots will crit as long as you have meter. Full meter gives you up to 6 crits
>The meter begins (slowly) depleting after backstabbing/sapping/firing your Diamondback
This maintains the item's identity while making it so you can't just infinitely build crits and squat on them forever
>Buff the Ambassador by making the fall-off less drastic
I do not have any problem with the Ambassador promoting a more skill-based playstyle.
I quite like that Diamondback nerf.
I had this funny idea for a TF2 mod that's just TF2 "IMBA".The idea of it is "what if we buffed all weapons". It's a little like TF2 x10 but without the x10 gimmick and the chance of weapons actually getting worse due to x10.
I even made a silly document for it with all my initial idea for weapon buffs. I tried to buff most weapons without removing their downsides.
I gave many stock weapons either a faster reload, larger splash radius, or larger clip size. The rocket launcher is like 30% more reload speed, 30% more blast radius. Pipe bomb launcher has more blast radius and 6 pills in the mag. The sniper rifle has a gazillion bullets and increased fire rate to make it better for unscoped fights. The stock shotgun is just 10% better at everything (rounded up) so 10% more damage, 10% more fire rate, +1 clip size, +1 pellets per shot, +10% accuracy, +10% ammo reserve. All stock melees have instant switch speed so they're proper back-up weapons.
Funny more creative ideas are the bazaar bargain heads having a mini-eyelander effect and also giving HP and movespeed up to 5 heads. The stock revolver firing two bullets, one perfectly accurate and the other wildly unaccurate. Shortstop shove now deal 150 damage, Eurka effect can teleport to any of your buildings.
>Phlog
Fix taunt canceling, make the flamethrower range be half so you don't get instakilled from bullshit flame particles but make the weapon charge with all damage (not just fire) and give the phlog charge critical hits for all weapons to encourage weapon switching
>Vacc
Reduce the uber damage res by like 5%, give diminishing returns to blocking more than one damage type at once
>Scorch shot
Reduce the projectile speed by like 30%, it being one of the fastest projectiles in the game with a large AOE that gives you full after burn no matter how close you are to it is bullshit to fight against
>Diamond back
Un neuter the ambassador first
>Wrangler
Just reduce the shield damage resistance to like 35% instead of 66%
>Kunai
Buff the starting health slightly and reduce the max overheal slightly
>Wrangler
shitter filter. just kill the engineer, or better yet, use teamwork to divert his attention (a groundbreaking concept for a game called TEAM fortress 2, i know)
if you are walking into a wrangled sentry (an immobile map hazard) head on, thats your fault for being moronic
>Vaccinator
shitter filter, literally just kill them. the vaccinator doesnt make them invulnverable. on your own? cant out dps the vacc shield? run away and regroup with your TEAM mates, in the game called TEAM fortress 2
>short circuit
literally just reposition? the engineer can only face one direction at once, and every projectile class he counters are also conveniently the ones with mobility on demand. use it to flank, and stop holding W into the obvious deathballs, you shitter
MAYBE the Vaccinator but really none of them are unbalanced. You can counterplay all of them if you just get gud.
Phlog has no airblast.
Scorch deals no damage outside afterburn which is a huge meme.
Vacc is only an issue if the medic is a god with it and has teammates to utilize it well.
Diamondback is shit with how often spy dies though MAYBE you should get less crits.
Kunai makes you one shot by literally anything before a stab.
Wrangler is a fricking OP piece of shit that has been OP since release even with the repair nerfs a while back. The shield is too fricking strong and the fact that it buffs the already huge damage output of a sentry is insane.
The scorch shot was never considered OP until 1 youtuber complained about it. At least when STAR_ complained about the gunslinger it was actually busted
Isnt that the case with every "supposedly" overpowered weapon?
Nobody had a problem with the wrangler until le heckin uncle danerino started calling it OP.
Same can be said for random crits, and sniper as a class, too.
People have hated sniper and crits since the 2008 new gay.
Oh cool, Zoomer revisionism
>A-actually you're the revisonist
Frick off Black person, you're the kind of person they should just hang immediately
Oh cool it's having an autistic meltdown because of it's failed attempt at revisionism. Neato!
Well with sniper the case is slightly different. Valve killing off quality user servers meant no moderation
No moderation meant VAC was the only mitigating factor for people cheating.
That and bots.
Plus you've also got people cheating convincing most people that
>Yeah, no totally the guy that has 200 hours on sniper TOTALLY has aimbot tier aim, let's pretend this is something that makes sense at all, despite not being an issue up until server moderation was gone
>Nobody had a problem with the wrangler until le heckin uncle danerino started calling it OP.
Competitive players have banned it since forever, so that's not true. The main thing stopping Wrangler being abused is that people find it too boring.
But when someone does go out of their way to ruin everyone's fun at the expense of their own, it shits things up.
>Competitive players have banned it since forever, so that's not true
Competitive players have also banned 90% of the games content for their niche minigame, so I don't see how that really means anything?
Also, competitive TF2 has always been, and always will be a joke. Literally nobody takes it, or anyone involved in it seriously. Casual is the core TF2 experience, and in casual, there are more than 6 players per team, greatly changing the dynamic when it comes to countering a wrangler.
>90% of the games content
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Competitive_item_restrictions
Why do people continue to lie about how much comp bans?
Compgays are just a convenient boogeyman. Discourse and rhetoric fall apart when some homosexual can just spout nonsense and other gays just go along with it because no one here gives an actual shit about competitive.
Um ACKSHUALLY the other 99% of the tf2 community is russian bots, and the only people that play tf2 are the people that agree with me that the sun on a stick is overpowered and needs to be nerfed
Anon i dont know if you realize this but the tactics used in competitive also work in a pub setting.
If an skilled uber demo and 2 soldiers can't do enough damage to take out 1 sentry being healed by the same engineer thats just hotswapping between rescue ranger and wrangler to shield/push stickies/heal, imagine how hellish things get when you have engineers stacked together like in a pub wacking their jags together
The rescue ranger has a metal cost now and the wrangler reduces repair effectiveness, and the thing is still pretty damn strong. But its no longer strong enough that a skilled team can't numerically overwhelm the engineer anymore.
And before you try to counter with "hurr just kill engineer", defensively they'd put fricking healing on the engineer to make sure he just won't die, and the rest of the team can still focus the non-ubered players so only demo/med is really safe
Anon I don't if you realized but comp is 6v6 and casual is 12v12 which inherently changes the balance of most of the game by a significant degree. Mostly all "health sponges" like heavies and wrangled sentries are less significant in a 12v12 scenario since there is more firepower on both teams. This is also why the GRU nerfs are completely unfounded because heavy being fast in 12v12 isn't a problem because the class is inherently weaker with so much damage on both teams. Same goes for the basejumper nerf which was only OP in 6v6 because engineer and heavy don't exist to counter the basejumper in that mode.
TF2 should be balanced around 12v12. Not 6v6 12v12 is the core of the game. Of course Spy is garbage in 6v6, there isn't enough chaos for him to thrive. Of course a fast heavy is overpowered in 6v6. There isn't enough firepower to take him down. But these aren't problems in 12v12.
>Of course Spy is garbage in 6v6, there isn't enough chaos for him to thrive.
Spy is garbage in 12v12 if the teams are even remotely competent. The fact that you're pretending he doesn't need some serious buffs is pretty evident that you've never played against a good team as a spy because all his issues are EVEN FRICKING WORSE when there's more players to call you out and murder you. You're basing your opinions off casual which almost always has half a team of shitters on both sides.
>Base my opinion on what you agree is a likely scenario
So anyway. Spy is ok in casual.
Now, please don't pretend like the enemy team actually regularly communicating is common since you already admitted that this isn't common.
Balancing around morons simply because they're more common is about as moronic as those same players who take more than a second to switch weapons.
Except it isn't because tf2 is a casual fun game and not a competitive game. There is no matchmaking system ensuring that all players on both teams are of roughly the same skill level. Since morons are a reality, buffing Spy, so he's good at the highest level of play will just make him overpowered when morons are present. Because morons exist Spy cannot, should not, and will never be strong at the highest level. The mere existence of morons is what makes him viable.
Spy should be underpowered because if he was overpowered then the class fantasy of infiltrating enemies lines and causing mayhem while keeping up your cover is lost.
morons wouldn't complain if spy were buffed considering they can't even deal with a pyro who w+m1s without reflects, why should balance be dictated by those people? There's no reason to focus on the lowest common denominator beyond the fact that you specifically have no experience with anything else.
I literally hate spies and play pyro all the time just to enjoy killing them constantly and I think he needs a buff, it's fricking incredible that you're suggesting otherwise.
>Spy is already acceptable in 12v12 casual because he can thrive off morons
>Buff him because he's weak vs the highest level of player even though that's the point of the class
>Now he's overpowered as frick an annoying
This is what would happen I guarantee it.
You don't even know how he'd be balanced and you're acting like any buff would make him "OP".
What kind of "balance" do you want.
I'd agree on stuff like reverting the amby and the YER. But anything more fundamental? Frick no. That'd make him OP. Reverting the deadringer would also make him OP.
If Spy gets his survivability/mobility buffed he'll become an unkillable piece of shit menace again because the morons that are inevitably on your team will can't communicate his presence, listen to your communication about his presence, or coordinate a take-down.
>4 coordinated players isn't enough damage to overtake 1 wrangled gun
>this problem doesn't exist nor get worse when you have multiple wrangled guns
Sure pub engineers aren't often coordinated enough to pull that off but the numbers don't really work if you extend to 12v12. Because then you have the equivalent of 12 players to get 4 sentries if ratios are kept the same, and thats not considering what the other 8 defenders are doing, God help you if theyre actually helping the engineers.
This isn't an issue of 6v6 being different from 12v12, and more an issue that the wrangler combined with the ranger allowed an engineer take on a 1v4 and still survive because of how much effective health the sentry got, despite uber being the intended stalemate busting mechanic.
This, nobody gave a shit until some homosexual decided to cry to his audience about it, which is why all the "arguments" for it being OP are half baked at best.
AAAAAAAAAA VALVE STOP RAPING THE SERVERS
Zimmermann
None of them should be nerfed and we should encourage playsets like demoknight, ambassador spy, bonk scout, phlog pyro as well as other playsets that counter them. Really though removing content thats integral like sniper and crits and maps is a zoomer thing and harkens back to Overwatch and Fortnite which are shitty balanced games and therefore needed content to be expunged.
>crits are integral to TF2
(you)
>None of them should be nerfed and we should encourage playsets like demoknight, ambassador spy, bonk scout, phlog pyro as well as other playsets that counter them.
Balancing around loadout counters is literally the main thing that makes Overwatch bad, and you're saying we should lean into that.
Either that or you're saying we should encourage people to play unviable classes more, which is just dumb.
>Balancing around loadout counters is literally the main thing that makes Overwatch bad
No, in Overwatch you can't change your weapons to fit a certain playset and can't use that to counter a choke point or another playset or a class. you can only change skins in that game. All shitty playsets which are unviable have been filtered out for sets that work, its why you don't see demoknight grenade launcher combo as much compared to a demoknight standard or samurai knight because instead of a grenade launcher you pair it up with Ali baba's wee booties for more turn and greater charge distance.
>No, in Overwatch you can't change your weapons to fit a certain playset and can't use that to counter a choke point or another playset or a class.
It's almost like you can change character at any time to do a similar thing. Wow...
>It's almost like you can change character at any time to do a similar thing. Wow...
Well that's the problem with that game. Instead of dealing with what they had they instead kept adding shit on top of it like more characters further fricking up the balance with shitty ass maps. You have freedom in tf2 because you can stick to a class but change the weapons instead of Overwatch where because of shitty chokemaps and team balance you'd have to switch to a heavier class or medic class. I know towards the end they had to force people into certain classes in Overwatch 2.
>phlog
Only let it charge with its own damage
>scorch
Buff it. Make it a primary weapon so we can live out the incendiary cannon dream.
>diamondback
Make the crits timed instead of stored
>wrangler
Drop the shield immediately if the engineer dies
>vax
Make it 3 bars instead of 4. Increase charge amount and duration to normalize the duration/cost from a full meter.
>Kunai
On-kill. Blast some obnoxious edm weeb music so morons will pay attention since crit death screams arent enough apparently
>Phlog
It's only annoying when paired with an uber medic at choke points. Get rid of the invulnerability and you'll have a chance to kill him or at least force the medic to pop the uber earlier.
>Scorch Shot
Get rid of the secondary flameball and give it more focus on being a nuisance by increasing the knockback instead.
>Wrangler
Get rid of the damage shield completely and and also remove the stun duration when switching away from it.
>Diamondback/Kunai
Just get your teammates to stop feeding him free kills.
Ambassador needs to be nerfed more 2 head shots to kill light class is bullshit.
2 rockets with minimal aim requirement killing every light class in the same effective range is fine THOUGH
wrangler and vax
just remove the wrangler's shield, and make the vax hold 3 charges instead of 4 (even makes more sense since it's 3 resists at full uber)
phlog is genuinely just crap, the best use of the flamethrower is the airblast and it lacks that, only can be genuinely effective in very tight maps otherwise literally just don't get close to the pyro and shoot at him
dback feels like bs because the average pub is 6 morons, 4 mid players and 2 good players so if one of the good opponents is a spy them they'll have free infinite crits from the morons giving away their back
kunai is too high risk, you can pull off fancy shit sure but when you look at it carefully the kunai spy's playtime is 90% waiting for respawn until they pop off then die again and repeat
scorchshot is just a good weapon, i don't really get the overt hate for this one it's just mildly annoying and not much better than the other flares
Reminder that mains of weak/over-nerfed classes left TF2 a decade ago and the remaining shitters learned that they could call out anything stopping them from dominating the game as 'unfun' or 'overpowered'.
>Reminder that mains of weak/over-nerfed classes left TF2 a decade ago
It's not difficult to find some autistic furry pyro main that's been playing since 2009 and can reflect huntsman arrows on instinct.
spy's biggest potential buff would be to add more spytech gadgets in the sapper slot to increase utility and reduce predictability.
The sapper exists because they removed grenades. So just walking up to a gun and blowing it up in a second doesn't happen anymore
As a tool it exists purely so he can actually function in the presence of the texan's aimbot.
Spy should get a Sombra personal teleporter in place of a sapper or a disguise kit, the latter because I can see it being used like the Eureka Effect with a taunt that makes him press some buttons on the cigar holder
a little hard to see teleporter you can place wherever. can be destroyed with one melee hit from any class and breaks upon the user's death. once placed, the spy holds out a little smoke bomb thing. use it to throw it down and teleport to the teleporter, draining 100% of cloak at the same time and making a distinctive noise.
Honestly He should have his own movement gimmick, like he should be able to jump higher then everyone passively if he crouches and slightly higher when he doesnt charge.
?
I'd be happy to just have a way to sprint at normal speed while disguised as slower classes.
sapper replacement that's just hand suction cups which can be used to climb up walls and shit. can't be used while cloaked or disguised though.
IM JUST GONNA SPAM STICKY BOMBS EVERYWHERE! STICKIES HERE, THERE, IN THE AIR, EVERYWHERE! IT BETTER THAN PILLS AND ITS NOT BROKEN AT ALL!
IM TRANS BTW FORGOT TO MUCH THAT
It's amazing how the wrangler is still broken after having been nerfed so many times, that shield is just way too good
>noooo nerf the vacc I headshot the medic and he didn't die NERF IT NERF IT
god damn sniper players are fricking pathetic
Spy is actually the greatest counter to vacc
You don't even need a spy, just ambush the med with two different types of damage.
If the medic has a pulse it won't work
T. Vacc medic main
Still, an uber push would still frick up your day. You and your pocket might be able to escape but you can't actually defend the nest.
Macro play, homie
Kite the uber push back with one charge
You have three charges remaining
If you drop vacc to an uber pop its also fine because some light team healing gets you to 75% while the enemy uber is at 50% at best
Vaccs otuer weakness is that it sucks at overhealing so if your entire team is eating shit and you are the only medic, well, sucks to be them I guess
You just HAVE to play aggressive all the time with vacc to leverage your build advantage
>Kite
Here is where your plan falls apart. When I get ubered, I completely ignore the vacc med, instead, I kill and destroy anyone and anything around him. You might survive it, but there is nothing left around you.
>Timing
Again, no time for that minigame, I need a fire&forget weapon and not something where I need a visual confirmation and timing.
>Jumping
For its height, it's completely situational and doesn't give you any exceptional advantage.
>Skill issue
Call it whatever you want, but no one has 100% accuracy. And missing a flare is just too easy and getting fricked for said missing is also too easy.
The Detonator isn't just worth it. You sound like some shitter Pybro who sits at a nest all day and keeps the bottom of the scoreboard warm and cozy
t.1k hour Pyro main
>When I get ubered
That's where YOUR plan falls apart. You won't get ubered or you'll get ubered at an inopportune time because vacc can afford to play up like a moron
Bro, the nest and 3/4 of your team is gone, the cart reached the point. Cool, you and your pocket survived.
You fundamentally don't understand how to play with a vacc and that's fine
Enjoy your uber, if the medic doesn't drop it
I do understand how it works, and this
works every fricking time. Every. Fricking. Time.
>meta
Who says that is meta and what is not? Listening to buttblased non-pyro players isn't meta, it's tricking you to get less efficient. Who cries so much about the scorch hmm?
>Phlog
I play stock, now go back to your engie, he called his dog.
Wrong. Since my entire team has diverse damage types. You can't dive in with a vacc, you get fricked. Now cope. Even a single sc**t will frick up your heavy when you're on anything but bullet resistance.
>my team has diverse damage types
Oh no, the vac medic will have to use two charges instead of only one, too bad he has 2 other charges left and takes 10 seconds to regain one lmao
>this is your brain on shit shot
Keep convincing yourself that you have an impact on the game buddy, I'm sure one of these days you'll get someone with your shit shot. Now don't mind me actually getting kills because I can do actual burst damage or have actual movement techs
Stay mad. Now equip your Darwins.
Meanwhile the vac medic and his pocket have done the same with your team, and the medic just got done charging another bubble. Oops lmao, gg no re
>1k hour Pyro main
Imagine putting 1k hour into a class and having no fricking clue what weapon is meta on it lmao, I bet you go phlog 90% of the time. Have fun peppering other classes with your shit shot while others play the game
You can spam stickies and now him down with a Heavy and it won’t do anything if he has common sense. Spy needs to backstab or flank the Medic with your melee.
Buff the Eviction Notice
Crits are good.
Autobalance is good.
Don't @ me sweatlords.
Demoman is legit mid now. What happened?
Fixed the Iron Bomber lol. Honestly tho I never really relied on it so I dont mind the fix.
>Sniper
>Bodyshot to 125 dmg full charge
>Headshot 125 dmg base
>HP set to 100
There
>nerf the phlo-ACK
if you wanted the ambassador to be nerfed. Then you're shit at the game and a Black person
Dead Ringer should be reworked and in return they unnerf Ambassador
Anyone else get tired of people theorycrafting made up scenarios and using them as justifications for why things should be nerfed?
Nah I love schizo rambling.
kunai and vax, everything else is fine. pyro could be deleted as a whole but any less than that will have no effect, pyro's issues are deeper than weapon stats
None. Buff them all.