Do you really want to know what I want? Do you really want to know the truth? I want my people to reclaim their rightful place in the galaxy. I want to see the Centauri stretch forth their hand again and command the stars. I want a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power! I want to stop running through my life like a man late for an appointment, afraid to look back or look forward. I want us to be what we used to be! I want... I want it all back the way it was. Does that answer your question?
>The death of Empreor Tuhran >The death of Cartagia >The deaths of so many eldar statsmen >The brief renaissance of the Centauri empire >Narn.jpg >The bombing of Centari prime >The death of Londo
I have a little present for you out in the garden, Vir.
I'd like to live *just* long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I want to look into your lifeless eyes and wave, like this.
Can you and your associates arrange that for me Mr. Morden?
What do you want?
As soon as I saw the thread OP I knew someone had to respond with What do you want? Thank you guys for doing so well.
I saw he series again recently and Straczynski got too much praise for the writing. He made everyone talk like a they had a premade speeches instead of more natural dialogue (like Josh Whedon did years later). And the story has a few ass-pulls or unsatisfying turns. Some are due to external causes like an actor leaving the show (like Ivanova due to him being a creep), but others like that alien where just unearned ways to get out of a difficult situation.
I don't know, I didn't mind Lorien. He was the father figure to the Vorlons and Shadows, as they were (mostly the Vorlons) for the younger races. He didn't show up with power or ships, but perspective. Indeed, both the Vorlons and Shadows were even willing to kill him.
So the only difficult situation he really got anyone out of was Sheridan on Zahadun. And even then it only earned his a couple decades of life.
2 years ago
Anonymous
The thing that never sat right with me about Lorien, even 25 years ago, was him supporting Sheridan yelling "Now get the hell out of our galaxy!" to the younger races' parents.
So if your parents are abusive, you have a right to kick them out of their house and keep all their stuff for yourself? That's the solution a good grandfather would support?
I know "older race leaving the setting for the Third Age of Mankind" was JMS ripping off Lord of the Rings, because Elves having to go West was an inscrutable Divine Command. The copy isn't going to still make sense if the writer is an atheist.
Fun fact: JMS got his start writing He-Man episodes, and in one of them, the Sorceress' (bird outfit lady's) first adventure was fighting Morgoth.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>So if your parents are abusive
That example kinda doesnt work. The older races are not related to the younger ones. Besides Vorlon and Shadows noone tinkered with the younger races. So what you have here is kinda like US and UdSSR in Vietnam or Germany/Europe.
>Josh Whedon
Obligatory reminder that everything Firefly did, Farscape did earlier and better.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Man I just never got into Farscape like I could Firefly, points for going some cool places though
2 years ago
Anonymous
For me the puppets are so damn good.
They just went through Jim Henson's storage warehouse so you can pick out some cool old shit made new. >Labyrinth >Dark Cristal >Original Starwars
It was clear the crew had a blast playing their characters and the writers cared even more.
When the actress that played Zan got an allergic reaction to her face and body paint to the point that her doc said she had to stop for good they did not replace her.
They build a few episodes around her dying and death that truly effected the characters.
There is a lot of that in the show. >real world complication turned into great story beats that enhance the show.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>They just went through Jim Henson's storage warehouse so you can pick out some cool old shit made new. >Labyrinth >Dark Cristal >Original Starwars
True. Dark Crystal series was good. But i can understand that people didnt watch the series. Not everyone likes puppets or fantasy.
>They build a few episodes around her dying and death that truly effected the characters.
Indeed. The best is when team, production and actors are on the same page.
>real world complication turned into great story beats that enhance the show.
I dont think that this is really world complications, but basic human interactions and mindsets. But yes, it is much deeper than your average show.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Zan got an allergic reaction to her face and body paint
that's what happened? At least it wasn't a falling out; I've heard worse reasons for quitting a show than for your health
nowadays they'd find a way to do her makeup in CG
2 years ago
Anonymous
Also happened to Bem in Andromeda and the first person to play Drall in B5. The actor who played Drall came back as Brother Theo.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Farscape is my favorite sci-fi. Chriton acting like a crazy and bombastic American jock in space to cope with his isolation was perfection.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Farscape was a great show, but it absolutely did not do "working class space crew" better than firefly.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Agreed, both shows are great but for different reasons
2 years ago
Anonymous
They're very different sub-genres. Both are scifi yeah, but in one the main characters' concerns are shit like "oh no this whole species is gonna die" and "can we save the universe" and in the other their big concerns are "do we have enough gas to reach the next station" and "is the thuggish biker guy we hired on trustworthy". Most of the "unique" stuff firefly did was based around having VERY low power characters who are more or less southern Good Ol Boy truckers dealing with bandits, comanche, and the Federation from star trek. That's not super comparable to farscape.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I mostly disagree. Sure, there were some really high-stakes scenarios in the season finales and very occasionally in one-off episodes, but the bulk of Farscape is on more or less the same "tier" as Firefly's. Most episodes are about the crew trying to acquire supplies or ship upgrades, dealing with some random pest or threat that's gotten aboard Moya, or hiding from the Peacekeepers/Scarrans. Or just getting stoned the frick out of their minds.
Admittedly, the low-stakes/high-stakes ratio does shift a lot the further into the seasons you go.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Honestly I liked the earlier seasons best for the most part
2 years ago
Anonymous
This'll probably ruin your day but they're doing an all-female "soft" reboot of Farscape that's "going to tackle modern issues" that audiences are likely to encounter in the real world.
2 years ago
Anonymous
You're gonna need to show your sources on that one, anon, 'cause the only recent news I can find about Farscape is whether or not it's available for streaming.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I made it up to get people mad/upset.
2 years ago
Anonymous
2 years ago
Anonymous
Scorpius ruined the concept of antagonists for me. No one I've discovered since has come close.
>He made everyone talk like a they had a premade speeches instead of more natural dialogue
That's a weird complaint. All dialogue in fiction is heavily stylised, because speaking naturally is pretty shit at conveying much. No, Whedon's dialogue isn't natural either, and would have been a poor match for the style of B5.
I also did not like Lorien. Characters who speak in riddles when they could just give a straightforward answer always annoy me. Caveat: When being straightforward is a bad idea because a character needs to get coaxed into coming around. It just seems to rarely be the case.
>talk like a they had a premade speeches instead of more natural dialogue
You know, it was more like a screenplay.
Firefly and Farscape
>Josh Whedon
Obligatory reminder that everything Firefly did, Farscape did earlier and better.
are more like sitcoms.
Lorien was just your typical "all-knowing" sage. Very Tolkien and very oldschool sci-fi. Kinda like Contact, Mission to Mars or 2001. Kinda like your typical P&P quest.
I'd hesitate to call him a Deus Ex Machina. All Lorien really ultimately does is help Sheridan understand what he has to do. He doesn't really *do* anything other than that.
This is important; Babylon 5 had spent a LOT of time establishing how powerful the Vorlons and Shadows were compared to the younger races. It would have been massively unsatisfying if Sheridan's alliance had actually been able to beat the Shadows, nevermind the Shadows AND the Vorlons.
Lorien allows us to see the war for what it really was: not even a real war, just a philosphical argument that had risen to the level of a bar fight. The Vorlons and Shadows were never, actually, at war., not with each other and not with the younger races.
I'd like to live *just* long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I want to look into your lifeless eyes and wave, like this.
Can you and your associates arrange that for me Mr. Morden?
The best part about Vir's answer is that he doesn't say, "I want your head cut off". His answer is phrased in such a way as that it seems like he expect Morden's head being cut off is inevitable. He just wants to be able to see it.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>This is important; Babylon 5 had spent a LOT of time establishing how powerful the Vorlons and Shadows were compared to the younger races. It would have been massively unsatisfying if Sheridan's alliance had actually been able to beat the Shadows, nevermind the Shadows AND the Vorlons. >Lorien allows us to see the war for what it really was: not even a real war, just a philosphical argument that had risen to the level of a bar fight. The Vorlons and Shadows were never, actually, at war., not with each other and not with the younger races.
This. Shit like this is why people love the show.
It's not a sitcom, not a show with a focus on aesthetic qualities trying to portray realism, it's a show written by someone who's worked a long time with long-term storytelling trying to frick around and have fun and tell something with large amounts of foreshadowing, and really interesting ideas, and occasional social commentary that's far more subtle than Star trek which on average is as blunt as a hammer to the face.
Is it perfect? No. Does it need to be? Hell no. It's got more than enough amazing moments, lines of dialog, characters, scenes, everything that makes a show great. I find the people who couldn't stand Babylon 5 tend to be the ones to b***h about stuff that really, really shouldn't matter so much to them in a piece of media.
He can't be a deus ex machina because that implies god isn't an actual character in the story so him showing up and doing shit is bullshit. He's god, except god is a character.
It wasn't that people were getting 'hurt', it was that their philosophical debate was hindering the development of younger species - which was the entire point of the philosophical debate in the first place.
Because the whole point of their job was to shepherd the younger races into growing up. Their job was done. It was time to leave. Lorien reminded them of it, but they knew it was over.
I'd like to live *just* long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I want to look into your lifeless eyes and wave, like this.
Can you and your associates arrange that for me Mr. Morden?
[...]
Sorry mate, she belongs to Big English wiener
Marcus was canonically virgin and a total Straczynski self insert.
2 years ago
Anonymous
he was absolutely the most annoying character in the whole series and i was relieved when he died
2 years ago
Anonymous
Ranger oath was absolute kino though.
>I am a Ranger. >We walk in the dark places no others will enter. >We stand on the bridge, and no one may pass. >We live for the One, we die for the One.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I thought he was cool. He was every kid's LARP dream only he had nothing to lose and everything to gain so he followed it.
Largely depressed, and complaining about the networks cancelling them. Neglecting the fact that despite the gems, the body of work as a whole has a lot of problems.
Meme-ing lines said once in the show.
Constant b***hing about the mega-corps, constant b***hing about alien influence, constant b***hing about the psycorp (until they change your mind for you) and constant b***hing about the quality of the food off-world. Also so many conspiricy theories floatingaround, the whole setting would be a conspiricy theorists nightmare.
Man, Talia was one of the hottest women I've ever seen on TV or movies. Perfect combination of classic Hollywood blonde updated to the 90s, with that voice, attitude, and mix of femme fatale danger and vulnerability that push the buttons of any non-gay man.
It has been decades and I've still not forgot her, damn.
PRESIDENT CLARK DID NOTHING WRONG
THE MINBARI MAKE UP 1% OF THE POPULATION AND 50% OF THE IA GOVERNMENT POSITIONS
THEY HAVE BEEN THROWN OUT OF *EVERY* PLANET THEY'VE VISITED FOR SUBVERSION AND DECEIT (also genocide)
#MAKEHUMANITYFRICKYEAHAGAIN
Yes. Not very good, though.
You needed to go full alternate history to make a decent story, as the setting's canon is otherwise too much detailed and on rails.
Does anyone have any experience with the B5 RPGs? If so, were they any good?
I know of two licensed systems (d20 and Noble Knight's Babylon Project) and one fanmade (Fuzion), but I've not found a group willing to try any of them out.
I've found these random threads are more likely a response to some /tg/ adjacent youtube channel putting out a video on the topic and one guy who used to be huge in the 40k scene dropped a pair of hour+ retrospectives on B5 over the last few weeks.
There is also the announcement that JMS wants to do a new series/sequel/possible reboot with franchise longevity in mind as opposed to the original fly the be the seat of the pants hope you have a next season like the original.
Bringing back the original characters would be a disaster, but the rumblings about this new B5 thing are saying reboot alongside it being a possible sequel series.
Oh hey bro! Been a while, huh? Yeah, I've been hitting that fast food too much recently. How have you been though? Haven't heard from you for a while. Oh me? Oh you know, just scraping by! Oh, my wife left me. Took off with my lawyer, can you believe that? Yeah, that caught me by surprise. Of course, she got the house. And the car... Both of them... And the dog... And... The kids...
But hey, you know what, they probably weren't mine anyway. I mean, she just left so easily that you know, maybe she'd been at this for a while, you know? I mean, it would explain the long nights out, the second phone, the clamming up, always telling me she needs space. Yeah it all makes sense now, doesn't it? Sure it was obvious but I guess I didn't want to believe it. Didn't want to say my own woman's been sleeping around, using me like a walking wallet, right? Yeah of course I trusted her, I loved her!
What did they even mean with that question? The Vorlons ended up being banhammering control freaks, so how is the "who" part even relevant when they expected everyone else to shut up and get in line?
I always though that this is the order and chaos way of seeing how well that person fits into their plan. Order would always categorize you, so they will ask you who you are or what you see in yourself. Chaos is always change, so they will ask what you want, because this implies change.
And depending what you answer they know if you suit them or if you are a Order or Chaos character.
>Who are you
Who are you, how do you fit into the great structures and hierarchy, what is your identity that will determine your action and path. >What do you want
What are you willing to take? To change. From the other guy, if you have it what will you do with it? Londo’s answer to the question encapsulates the philosophy here: the Shadows gave him what he wanted.
As it turned out, Londo didn’t like what he wanted at all. And meanwhile, G’Kar figured out who he was with the help of Kosh, a Vorlon, but didn’t like that either. So both of them changed, becoming better. It was never a question of good or bad, but of the path they chose in life. Both are valid, and both led to important character development. They perfectly encapsulate the Vorlons and Shadows.
Both the Vorlons and the Shadows are supposed to let you decide the answer to the "Who are you" and "What do you want" questions, but over time they started to force people to accept their own answers. Vorlons want you to say "I am your obedient little proxy state", while the Shadows want you to say "I'M AN ANIMAL, I'M A WARRIOR, AND I'M COMING!". Both answers probably worked for their species and their culture, but the same is not true universally. Even so, they forced their ides of static tranquility and eternal conflict on everyone.
> while the Shadows want you to say "I'M AN ANIMAL, I'M A WARRIOR, AND I'M COMING!"
That’s. It wholly true. Remember G’Kar basically answered Morden like that, but the Shadows ultimately had no interest in the Narns. G’Kar wanted to absolutely, brutally murder the Centauri, but they had no larger ambition than that. They wanted to tear something down but has no desire to build something in its place.
Like, “survival of the fittest” isn’t wholly enough for the Shadows. You have to want to DO something with that survival.
No, Morden asked him what he wanted, and he told him. Morden decided against it. Later G'Kar found out and realized. And reflected that it was a good thing, but at the time he would have taken it if it was offered.
No. He, like Mollari, initially is annoyed and just wants Morden to go away. But both G'Kar and Mollari finally give in and tell Morden what they really want.
With G'Kar, it was revenge on the Centauri, to crush them, level their cities, strip their world, etc. However when Morden pushed a bit more for an "and then what?", G'Kar had no immediate answer. He admitted that he'd never given it much thought, and then said that as long as Narn was safe he didn't see that it mattered.
Whereas Londo, when finally pushed, did his famous speech from here, [...]. Londo wanted to BUILD something, or rebuild something - in either case, it was ambitious and driven.
Nonsense, G‘Kar wanted to rebuild his home and dominate the Centauri. That is just on the same level as Londo who just want the glory back and rule the Centauri space. The only difference is ne wants home, the other one a kingdom.
2 years ago
Anonymous
G'Kars want required fighting the Centauri. Londo's wish involved the Centauri fighting everyone in the way of their "Commanding the galaxy again". Since the Shadow's entire M.O. is starting massive wars to encourage the strong to develop and the weak to die, Londo's is the one that gives them the most opportunity for chaos.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Nonsense, G‘Kar wanted to rebuild his home and dominate the Centauri
Yes, but he wanted nothing *after* that. G'Kar wanted Narn to prosper, but not at the expense of anyone else other than the Centauri, and even when he speaks of the Centauri he doesn't talk about becoming the new Lion of the Galaxy, taking their empire or commanding the same respect and fear that the Centauri did.
And that's just not what the Shadows are looking for. You can see it in Morden's expression in the clip you posted: when G'Kar says "...I don't know. As long as my homeworld's safety is guaranteed, I don't know that it matters". Morden, on behalf of the Shadows, is visibly disappointed that so much passion begins and ends with just simple, ultimately petty revenge.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I like that in the end they both got what they wanted, if only briefly. Even Vir got what he asked for, almost to the letter.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Everyone who answers Morden's question gets what they want. Vir actually almost got exactly what he wanted: if the Vorlons hadn't been drawn away to Coriana-6, then Centauri Prime would have been destroyed and Vir would have, in fact, lived "just" long enough to be there.
Vorlons an Shadows are space boomers?
Kind of, yeah.
2 years ago
Anonymous
This raises question if Vorlon assisted in the machinations of fate. By going along with the dispute the Vorlons would let you get what you want to drive the point home what you've become to get it.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Everyone who answers Morden's question gets what they want.
Hey, mr Morden, I want everyone to reuced to primitie barbarian tribes fightng over scraps. Can you provide?
No. He, like Mollari, initially is annoyed and just wants Morden to go away. But both G'Kar and Mollari finally give in and tell Morden what they really want.
With G'Kar, it was revenge on the Centauri, to crush them, level their cities, strip their world, etc. However when Morden pushed a bit more for an "and then what?", G'Kar had no immediate answer. He admitted that he'd never given it much thought, and then said that as long as Narn was safe he didn't see that it mattered.
Whereas Londo, when finally pushed, did his famous speech from here,
Do you really want to know what I want? Do you really want to know the truth? I want my people to reclaim their rightful place in the galaxy. I want to see the Centauri stretch forth their hand again and command the stars. I want a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power! I want to stop running through my life like a man late for an appointment, afraid to look back or look forward. I want us to be what we used to be! I want... I want it all back the way it was. Does that answer your question?
. Londo wanted to BUILD something, or rebuild something - in either case, it was ambitious and driven.
No, the Shadows want you to keep going. Victory over your enemies is not enough, you need to fight the war of all against all forever. They went with Londo because he was quixotically chasing the past glories of the Centauri, and they thought that once he got that he wouldn’t stop.
G’Kar implies that he’d retire and leave things to the next generation, which the Shadows’ (and Vorlons’) incapacity to do is kinda one of the big things of the series.
Trying to work out a good take on a vorlons/shadow dichotomy for my own setting, what would be some things to consider? Things to improve on from the original basos etc.?
I think the philosophical difference took took much from fantasy (law vs chaos) vs something that people are much more likely to encounter (imagine actually late stage capitalism where it doesn't collapse it collapses you or some nonsense, like a single survivor, the 0.000000001% who bought all his toys and competitors and so on and now doesn't want to move on and leave his stuff behind as the 99.999999% of the rest of his species did). You can probably think of something better (or let the pc's decide for you, are all your pc's buttholes? have it be butthole vs nice, are all your pc's plucky devil may care rebels? Well there you go).
And then, completely randomize the appearance of the two factions. Maybe throw in some intermediary factions (who are bigger then the current tech level but beneath the elders) who also look completely random. I always liked babylon 5 for actually taking the time to realize that civs would be all over the place from relatively well organized to chaotic (green vs purps, get out of here purps Black folk) and from tech backwater to advanced (with little or no directive to curtail that sort of thing, why would you let people live for centuries in shitty conditions).
I loved B5, BSG, Star Trek TOS and Firefly. I watched Dark Matter and had a surprising planet-size blast.
Then I watched the Expanse. I really don't think I need TV shows about space anymore. Frick that asteroid belt full of calcified shit.
If you listen closely, you can still hear the echo of me screaming "NOOOOOO" when I learned that there was going to be a reboot of B5.
That being said, I've thought about it, and decided that I could be okay with it, provided that there is something IMMEDIATELY different right from the get-go in the series. Something that immediately tells us that this is going to play out as a very different story.
One thought I've had on that front is having the Dilgar still being around, as a vestigial empire after Omelos went nova. Their space is vastly reduced in size and their technological base has been thoroughly plundered by the Earth Alliance and the League of Non-Aligned Worlds. By treaty they're forbidden from having anything more than a purely defensive military.
The Dilgar have a non-voting council observer on Babylon 5. She can be female, which ups the number of female cast members without needing to change the sex of G'Kar or Londo or whoever. And she can be approached by Morden just like all the other ambassadors.
I also think I'd like there to be an actual Shadow character lurking on the station, as a counterpoint to Kosh. Never speaks, keeps to itself, is basically Morden's handler. It is by no means "good" (it can even be one of the Shadows that kills Kosh, if Kosh still dies), but I think it'd be fun if we did see that it wasn't thoroughly evil, either ("no one here is exactly who he appears", after all). Basically give us a perspective on the Shadows that isn't just "pure evil". The Shadows did originally, after all, have the goal of helping the younger races.
Nah, just a straight-up invisible spider person that can become visible at will.
Oh, I wasn't clear - no one knows that it's there except for Morden and probably Kosh. I don't mean that it should have, like, a suite in the ambassadorial wing or anything. It probably lives in Down Below.
There could even be an episode with a B-plot following it around. Again, it doesn't speak, but maybe show that it's not just some unflappable abomination, either - just like Kosh, it can be kind of a troll. Like its lair in Down Below might have trinkets that it's found amusing. Vorlons are the austere ones; the Shadow has a collection of bottlecaps or something. And it can even get bored lurking in Down Below with nothing to do, so occasionally it might go out and just take advantage of the fact that it's invisible to do something.
Something as well to show that maybe there's a good side to the Shadow philosophy. Like there's a lurker in Down Below that gets accosted by some thugs but manages to fight them off; the Shadow sees this and decides to clandestinely reward the lurker with, say, a few Centauri ducats or some other hard cash that the lurker can spend without it being traced to anywhere. But then the lurker just blows the cash on nothing in particular and ends up right where he started, disappointing the Shadow.
Could even borrow an idea from the Predators and have the Shadow occasionally "speak" by playing back lines it's recorded. As the lurker is lying on the ground back where he started in an empty hall, the words "you had your chance" (said previously by the thugs) echo.
Stuff like there. There's a lot that could be done with an actual Shadow on the station.
>maybe show that it's not just some unflappable abomination, either - just like Kosh, it can be kind of a troll
One of my favourite moments in B5 with Kosh was when the news crew was on board and trying to get interviews with people. In one scene they catch him just as he's coming out of his quarters, and he almost jumps as he turns around and bolts back inside, an "oh shit it's the press, run!" reaction from a normally unflappable mystical Vorlon.
Yeah. Plus there was Marcus and Franklin were mulling over how all of them corresponded to Arthurian legend, they ask "who's Merlin", and the crowd slightly parts and Kosh is right there and nods at them before walking off.
I like to imagine Kosh had some kind of precognitive vision of that conversation and rushed across the station's length to get there in time to be exactly in place. Having to walk normally when people can see him but otherwise outright running when no one is looking.
But yeah, also the ISN scare. On your first watch, you probably think it's Kosh just being deliberately mysterious. On your second watch, when you know that Vorlons and Shadows aren't really all that different from the younger races, just more advanced, you realize that Kosh was blindsided.
If I was going that way I'd have it be very strongly implied that it stayed behind when the others leave, hidden in the slums and the dark.
If it'd been Kosh's opposite for so very long it might have broken ranks when the terms of The Agreement were broken and he had to kill his oldest Associate.
Maybe it meets up with Leeta at the end and they walk off into the sunset together.
Maybe, though something feels wrong to me about having any of the First Ones stick around after Coriana 6, even this Shadow. It breaking with the Shadows to some extent I can get behind, but it should definitely leave with the rest of the Shadows.
The Shadow coming to kill Kosh could be played out pretty well and without dialogue, too, if done right - the door to Kosh's quarters open, Morden is in the doorway, he steps in but then to the side and three Shadows enter. They look identical. There's an extended moment of silence, with a close-up on Kosh and then on the three Shadows, though the camera slowly focuses on one in particular. Then two of the Shadow rush forward. The third - the one we'd focused on - starts forward, hesitates a moment, but then rushes in anyway.
We don't see much of the fight directly (need to focus on Kosh's last message to Sheridan), but when we get back Kosh's encounter suit is empty. One Shadow's encounter suit* is now sporting a bright gold "wound" (the others have much smaller "wounds" as well) but it's also the one standing over Kosh's empty suit with its claws and pose clear that it's the one that killed Kosh.
The other two Shadows go invisible and leave, and Morden does as well, but then realizes that the third Shadow is still there. He looks back, and its' claws are gently touching Kosh's helmet. Then it notices that it's noticed, and it, too, goes invisible.
For the rest of its appearances it still has the gold "scar" of the fight with Kosh. And also from that point forward it stops acting as menacing. its big moment of change is when the Shadows unveil their Death Cloud; that's when it finally realizes that its species have lost their way and needs to change.
----
*Canonically Shadows are beings of light just like Vorlons, the spider thing we see is just their version of an encounter suit
When Sheridan goes to Za'ha'dûm there should only be two bodyguards standing by Mr Morden. If there'd been three of them Mr Morden would probably not have been executed.
It could be leave, possibly with Leeta, with Sheridan when Lorien takes him to not!Avalon. Maybe it, like Sheridan, was given a little bit of grace time to make things right before it left.
I am U.
What do you want?
Why are you here?
We have always been here.
NEVER ASK THAT QUESTION
rude
Do you really want to know what I want? Do you really want to know the truth? I want my people to reclaim their rightful place in the galaxy. I want to see the Centauri stretch forth their hand again and command the stars. I want a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power! I want to stop running through my life like a man late for an appointment, afraid to look back or look forward. I want us to be what we used to be! I want... I want it all back the way it was. Does that answer your question?
The older I get the more I understand Londo. It doesn't matter because I've forgotten how to dance.
What would a Centauri "Remember what they took from you" even look like?
>The death of Empreor Tuhran
>The death of Cartagia
>The deaths of so many eldar statsmen
>The brief renaissance of the Centauri empire
>Narn.jpg
>The bombing of Centari prime
>The death of Londo
how many of those were London directly or indirectly responsible for including his own death? lmao
>how many of those were London directly or indirectly responsible for
All of them.
Fricking Perfidious London.
Its been a while since I watched it but most of those are the direct result of Londo's actions and only a few of them are Indirectly on his hands.
As soon as I saw the thread OP I knew someone had to respond with What do you want? Thank you guys for doing so well.
Get the hell out of our galaxy!
IMPUDENT
Your time has passed. This place...belongs to the younger races, now.
Will you.... come with us?
Of course. And we will see all those who went away before us, beyond the rim.
Truly a bullshit Deus Ex Machina character, lol
I saw he series again recently and Straczynski got too much praise for the writing. He made everyone talk like a they had a premade speeches instead of more natural dialogue (like Josh Whedon did years later). And the story has a few ass-pulls or unsatisfying turns. Some are due to external causes like an actor leaving the show (like Ivanova due to him being a creep), but others like that alien where just unearned ways to get out of a difficult situation.
I don't know, I didn't mind Lorien. He was the father figure to the Vorlons and Shadows, as they were (mostly the Vorlons) for the younger races. He didn't show up with power or ships, but perspective. Indeed, both the Vorlons and Shadows were even willing to kill him.
So the only difficult situation he really got anyone out of was Sheridan on Zahadun. And even then it only earned his a couple decades of life.
The thing that never sat right with me about Lorien, even 25 years ago, was him supporting Sheridan yelling "Now get the hell out of our galaxy!" to the younger races' parents.
So if your parents are abusive, you have a right to kick them out of their house and keep all their stuff for yourself? That's the solution a good grandfather would support?
I know "older race leaving the setting for the Third Age of Mankind" was JMS ripping off Lord of the Rings, because Elves having to go West was an inscrutable Divine Command. The copy isn't going to still make sense if the writer is an atheist.
Fun fact: JMS got his start writing He-Man episodes, and in one of them, the Sorceress' (bird outfit lady's) first adventure was fighting Morgoth.
>So if your parents are abusive
That example kinda doesnt work. The older races are not related to the younger ones. Besides Vorlon and Shadows noone tinkered with the younger races. So what you have here is kinda like US and UdSSR in Vietnam or Germany/Europe.
>Josh Whedon
Obligatory reminder that everything Firefly did, Farscape did earlier and better.
Man I just never got into Farscape like I could Firefly, points for going some cool places though
For me the puppets are so damn good.
They just went through Jim Henson's storage warehouse so you can pick out some cool old shit made new.
>Labyrinth
>Dark Cristal
>Original Starwars
It was clear the crew had a blast playing their characters and the writers cared even more.
When the actress that played Zan got an allergic reaction to her face and body paint to the point that her doc said she had to stop for good they did not replace her.
They build a few episodes around her dying and death that truly effected the characters.
There is a lot of that in the show.
>real world complication turned into great story beats that enhance the show.
>They just went through Jim Henson's storage warehouse so you can pick out some cool old shit made new.
>Labyrinth
>Dark Cristal
>Original Starwars
True. Dark Crystal series was good. But i can understand that people didnt watch the series. Not everyone likes puppets or fantasy.
>They build a few episodes around her dying and death that truly effected the characters.
Indeed. The best is when team, production and actors are on the same page.
>real world complication turned into great story beats that enhance the show.
I dont think that this is really world complications, but basic human interactions and mindsets. But yes, it is much deeper than your average show.
>Zan got an allergic reaction to her face and body paint
that's what happened? At least it wasn't a falling out; I've heard worse reasons for quitting a show than for your health
nowadays they'd find a way to do her makeup in CG
Also happened to Bem in Andromeda and the first person to play Drall in B5. The actor who played Drall came back as Brother Theo.
Farscape is my favorite sci-fi. Chriton acting like a crazy and bombastic American jock in space to cope with his isolation was perfection.
Farscape was a great show, but it absolutely did not do "working class space crew" better than firefly.
Agreed, both shows are great but for different reasons
They're very different sub-genres. Both are scifi yeah, but in one the main characters' concerns are shit like "oh no this whole species is gonna die" and "can we save the universe" and in the other their big concerns are "do we have enough gas to reach the next station" and "is the thuggish biker guy we hired on trustworthy". Most of the "unique" stuff firefly did was based around having VERY low power characters who are more or less southern Good Ol Boy truckers dealing with bandits, comanche, and the Federation from star trek. That's not super comparable to farscape.
I mostly disagree. Sure, there were some really high-stakes scenarios in the season finales and very occasionally in one-off episodes, but the bulk of Farscape is on more or less the same "tier" as Firefly's. Most episodes are about the crew trying to acquire supplies or ship upgrades, dealing with some random pest or threat that's gotten aboard Moya, or hiding from the Peacekeepers/Scarrans. Or just getting stoned the frick out of their minds.
Admittedly, the low-stakes/high-stakes ratio does shift a lot the further into the seasons you go.
Honestly I liked the earlier seasons best for the most part
This'll probably ruin your day but they're doing an all-female "soft" reboot of Farscape that's "going to tackle modern issues" that audiences are likely to encounter in the real world.
You're gonna need to show your sources on that one, anon, 'cause the only recent news I can find about Farscape is whether or not it's available for streaming.
I made it up to get people mad/upset.
Scorpius ruined the concept of antagonists for me. No one I've discovered since has come close.
>He made everyone talk like a they had a premade speeches instead of more natural dialogue
That's a weird complaint. All dialogue in fiction is heavily stylised, because speaking naturally is pretty shit at conveying much. No, Whedon's dialogue isn't natural either, and would have been a poor match for the style of B5.
>Joss Whedon
I also did not like Lorien. Characters who speak in riddles when they could just give a straightforward answer always annoy me. Caveat: When being straightforward is a bad idea because a character needs to get coaxed into coming around. It just seems to rarely be the case.
>talk like a they had a premade speeches instead of more natural dialogue
You know, it was more like a screenplay.
Firefly and Farscape
are more like sitcoms.
Lorien was just your typical "all-knowing" sage. Very Tolkien and very oldschool sci-fi. Kinda like Contact, Mission to Mars or 2001. Kinda like your typical P&P quest.
>Truly a bullshit Deus Ex Machina character, lol
I'd hesitate to call him a Deus Ex Machina. All Lorien really ultimately does is help Sheridan understand what he has to do. He doesn't really *do* anything other than that.
This is important; Babylon 5 had spent a LOT of time establishing how powerful the Vorlons and Shadows were compared to the younger races. It would have been massively unsatisfying if Sheridan's alliance had actually been able to beat the Shadows, nevermind the Shadows AND the Vorlons.
Lorien allows us to see the war for what it really was: not even a real war, just a philosphical argument that had risen to the level of a bar fight. The Vorlons and Shadows were never, actually, at war., not with each other and not with the younger races.
The best part about Vir's answer is that he doesn't say, "I want your head cut off". His answer is phrased in such a way as that it seems like he expect Morden's head being cut off is inevitable. He just wants to be able to see it.
>This is important; Babylon 5 had spent a LOT of time establishing how powerful the Vorlons and Shadows were compared to the younger races. It would have been massively unsatisfying if Sheridan's alliance had actually been able to beat the Shadows, nevermind the Shadows AND the Vorlons.
>Lorien allows us to see the war for what it really was: not even a real war, just a philosphical argument that had risen to the level of a bar fight. The Vorlons and Shadows were never, actually, at war., not with each other and not with the younger races.
This. Shit like this is why people love the show.
It's not a sitcom, not a show with a focus on aesthetic qualities trying to portray realism, it's a show written by someone who's worked a long time with long-term storytelling trying to frick around and have fun and tell something with large amounts of foreshadowing, and really interesting ideas, and occasional social commentary that's far more subtle than Star trek which on average is as blunt as a hammer to the face.
Is it perfect? No. Does it need to be? Hell no. It's got more than enough amazing moments, lines of dialog, characters, scenes, everything that makes a show great. I find the people who couldn't stand Babylon 5 tend to be the ones to b***h about stuff that really, really shouldn't matter so much to them in a piece of media.
You idiot he's literally god.
He can't be a deus ex machina because that implies god isn't an actual character in the story so him showing up and doing shit is bullshit. He's god, except god is a character.
>Get the hell out of our galaxy!
Why didn't the Old Ones just say "No"?
Because they finally understood that their philosophical debate had gone too far and people were starting to get hurt.
>people were starting to get hurt
bit late for that!
It wasn't that people were getting 'hurt', it was that their philosophical debate was hindering the development of younger species - which was the entire point of the philosophical debate in the first place.
Because the whole point of their job was to shepherd the younger races into growing up. Their job was done. It was time to leave. Lorien reminded them of it, but they knew it was over.
me
everything
to frick shit up
I want Ken Railings to walk in here and say "Pam Shortt's broken both her legs and I want to dance with you"
I'd like to live *just* long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I want to look into your lifeless eyes and wave, like this.
Can you and your associates arrange that for me Mr. Morden?
I have a little present for you out in the garden, Vir.
being dominated by ivanova is the fricking dream
go ahead, shame me
>5 years of blue balls
Surely Marcus would be more appropriate?
Marcus was canonically virgin and a total Straczynski self insert.
he was absolutely the most annoying character in the whole series and i was relieved when he died
Ranger oath was absolute kino though.
>I am a Ranger.
>We walk in the dark places no others will enter.
>We stand on the bridge, and no one may pass.
>We live for the One, we die for the One.
I thought he was cool. He was every kid's LARP dream only he had nothing to lose and everything to gain so he followed it.
Sorry mate, she belongs to Big English wiener
All love is unrequited, b***h.
The most based response to a chaotic evil character ever.
Who do you serve and who do you trust?
New Babylon 5 merch.
Nobody
Just a little drink with you
Trash
Murder everyone and destroy everything
JUMP
I seriously wonder what Babylon 5 Ganker would be like
Largely depressed, and complaining about the networks cancelling them. Neglecting the fact that despite the gems, the body of work as a whole has a lot of problems.
Meme-ing lines said once in the show.
A pile of regrets armoring a core of potential.
A lot if it has aged badly, another lot has become even more relevant.
Constant b***hing about the mega-corps, constant b***hing about alien influence, constant b***hing about the psycorp (until they change your mind for you) and constant b***hing about the quality of the food off-world. Also so many conspiricy theories floatingaround, the whole setting would be a conspiricy theorists nightmare.
Narn and Centuari shitposting
This. Glory to alpha centari
Beware the Narn posters
Sex with talia.
Man, Talia was one of the hottest women I've ever seen on TV or movies. Perfect combination of classic Hollywood blonde updated to the 90s, with that voice, attitude, and mix of femme fatale danger and vulnerability that push the buttons of any non-gay man.
It has been decades and I've still not forgot her, damn.
PRESIDENT CLARK DID NOTHING WRONG
THE MINBARI MAKE UP 1% OF THE POPULATION AND 50% OF THE IA GOVERNMENT POSITIONS
THEY HAVE BEEN THROWN OUT OF *EVERY* PLANET THEY'VE VISITED FOR SUBVERSION AND DECEIT (also genocide)
#MAKEHUMANITYFRICKYEAHAGAIN
It would be green.
Purple
Truly an ideal form of government. Save for tge bureaucratic delays.
G R E E N
One of the last scions of Ningishzida.
Green is best! All purple drazi, push out airlock!
Green Drazi bad Drazi! Purple Drazi is best. Green Drazi line up against wall.
Purple is the colour of royalty, greengay.
Green is the color of life, meatbag.
I am a person weaker than I want to be. Less good than I want to be. And through my failings I am more wise and humble than I used to be.
I am someone who wants to be able to meet his God without (much) shame one day.
>Who are you?
Who? Who?
Who? Who?
I REALLY wanna know!
Your best nightmare
Traditional games?
Frick off newbie. You don't need other boards.
Can I we post porn?
Yes. Not very good, though.
You needed to go full alternate history to make a decent story, as the setting's canon is otherwise too much detailed and on rails.
A Call to Arms space combat game was pretty decent. Even had a sizable miniatures range.
Does anyone have any experience with the B5 RPGs? If so, were they any good?
I know of two licensed systems (d20 and Noble Knight's Babylon Project) and one fanmade (Fuzion), but I've not found a group willing to try any of them out.
did reddit just have their first b5 marathon or something?
> still treating reddit as some kind of boogeyman in 2022
Its time to retire the meme, dude. Its older than some of the people who post here.
>He thinks it's a meme
t. reddit
I've found these random threads are more likely a response to some /tg/ adjacent youtube channel putting out a video on the topic and one guy who used to be huge in the 40k scene dropped a pair of hour+ retrospectives on B5 over the last few weeks.
There is also the announcement that JMS wants to do a new series/sequel/possible reboot with franchise longevity in mind as opposed to the original fly the be the seat of the pants hope you have a next season like the original.
Someone wants to make a reboot? I don't see that going well since certain characters (G'kar,Londo) were done obscenely well by the original actors.
Bringing back the original characters would be a disaster, but the rumblings about this new B5 thing are saying reboot alongside it being a possible sequel series.
I could probably dig a sequel series although I feel like the "last best hope for peace aspect" of B5 might be strained a bit by modern TV
We have always been here.
Oh hey bro! Been a while, huh? Yeah, I've been hitting that fast food too much recently. How have you been though? Haven't heard from you for a while. Oh me? Oh you know, just scraping by! Oh, my wife left me. Took off with my lawyer, can you believe that? Yeah, that caught me by surprise. Of course, she got the house. And the car... Both of them... And the dog... And... The kids...
But hey, you know what, they probably weren't mine anyway. I mean, she just left so easily that you know, maybe she'd been at this for a while, you know? I mean, it would explain the long nights out, the second phone, the clamming up, always telling me she needs space. Yeah it all makes sense now, doesn't it? Sure it was obvious but I guess I didn't want to believe it. Didn't want to say my own woman's been sleeping around, using me like a walking wallet, right? Yeah of course I trusted her, I loved her!
God I was such a dumbass...
What did they even mean with that question? The Vorlons ended up being banhammering control freaks, so how is the "who" part even relevant when they expected everyone else to shut up and get in line?
I always though that this is the order and chaos way of seeing how well that person fits into their plan. Order would always categorize you, so they will ask you who you are or what you see in yourself. Chaos is always change, so they will ask what you want, because this implies change.
And depending what you answer they know if you suit them or if you are a Order or Chaos character.
>Who are you
Who are you, how do you fit into the great structures and hierarchy, what is your identity that will determine your action and path.
>What do you want
What are you willing to take? To change. From the other guy, if you have it what will you do with it? Londo’s answer to the question encapsulates the philosophy here: the Shadows gave him what he wanted.
As it turned out, Londo didn’t like what he wanted at all. And meanwhile, G’Kar figured out who he was with the help of Kosh, a Vorlon, but didn’t like that either. So both of them changed, becoming better. It was never a question of good or bad, but of the path they chose in life. Both are valid, and both led to important character development. They perfectly encapsulate the Vorlons and Shadows.
Both the Vorlons and the Shadows are supposed to let you decide the answer to the "Who are you" and "What do you want" questions, but over time they started to force people to accept their own answers. Vorlons want you to say "I am your obedient little proxy state", while the Shadows want you to say "I'M AN ANIMAL, I'M A WARRIOR, AND I'M COMING!". Both answers probably worked for their species and their culture, but the same is not true universally. Even so, they forced their ides of static tranquility and eternal conflict on everyone.
What if the Vorlons were hybridized with the Shadows?
Who are you want?
Thats a thing for the new series!
Who do you want to be?
> while the Shadows want you to say "I'M AN ANIMAL, I'M A WARRIOR, AND I'M COMING!"
That’s. It wholly true. Remember G’Kar basically answered Morden like that, but the Shadows ultimately had no interest in the Narns. G’Kar wanted to absolutely, brutally murder the Centauri, but they had no larger ambition than that. They wanted to tear something down but has no desire to build something in its place.
Like, “survival of the fittest” isn’t wholly enough for the Shadows. You have to want to DO something with that survival.
> That’s. It wholly true.
*that’s not wholly true.
I always thought the shadows were all about ambition
Didnt G`Kar just turned Morden down? Like he saw through him and knew that he was a bad omen?
No, Morden asked him what he wanted, and he told him. Morden decided against it. Later G'Kar found out and realized. And reflected that it was a good thing, but at the time he would have taken it if it was offered.
Nonsense, G‘Kar wanted to rebuild his home and dominate the Centauri. That is just on the same level as Londo who just want the glory back and rule the Centauri space. The only difference is ne wants home, the other one a kingdom.
G'Kars want required fighting the Centauri. Londo's wish involved the Centauri fighting everyone in the way of their "Commanding the galaxy again". Since the Shadow's entire M.O. is starting massive wars to encourage the strong to develop and the weak to die, Londo's is the one that gives them the most opportunity for chaos.
>Nonsense, G‘Kar wanted to rebuild his home and dominate the Centauri
Yes, but he wanted nothing *after* that. G'Kar wanted Narn to prosper, but not at the expense of anyone else other than the Centauri, and even when he speaks of the Centauri he doesn't talk about becoming the new Lion of the Galaxy, taking their empire or commanding the same respect and fear that the Centauri did.
And that's just not what the Shadows are looking for. You can see it in Morden's expression in the clip you posted: when G'Kar says "...I don't know. As long as my homeworld's safety is guaranteed, I don't know that it matters". Morden, on behalf of the Shadows, is visibly disappointed that so much passion begins and ends with just simple, ultimately petty revenge.
I like that in the end they both got what they wanted, if only briefly. Even Vir got what he asked for, almost to the letter.
Everyone who answers Morden's question gets what they want. Vir actually almost got exactly what he wanted: if the Vorlons hadn't been drawn away to Coriana-6, then Centauri Prime would have been destroyed and Vir would have, in fact, lived "just" long enough to be there.
Kind of, yeah.
This raises question if Vorlon assisted in the machinations of fate. By going along with the dispute the Vorlons would let you get what you want to drive the point home what you've become to get it.
>Everyone who answers Morden's question gets what they want.
Hey, mr Morden, I want everyone to reuced to primitie barbarian tribes fightng over scraps. Can you provide?
It happened on Earth.
litreally the endgame effectively for the losers
No. He, like Mollari, initially is annoyed and just wants Morden to go away. But both G'Kar and Mollari finally give in and tell Morden what they really want.
With G'Kar, it was revenge on the Centauri, to crush them, level their cities, strip their world, etc. However when Morden pushed a bit more for an "and then what?", G'Kar had no immediate answer. He admitted that he'd never given it much thought, and then said that as long as Narn was safe he didn't see that it mattered.
Whereas Londo, when finally pushed, did his famous speech from here,
. Londo wanted to BUILD something, or rebuild something - in either case, it was ambitious and driven.
No, the Shadows want you to keep going. Victory over your enemies is not enough, you need to fight the war of all against all forever. They went with Londo because he was quixotically chasing the past glories of the Centauri, and they thought that once he got that he wouldn’t stop.
G’Kar implies that he’d retire and leave things to the next generation, which the Shadows’ (and Vorlons’) incapacity to do is kinda one of the big things of the series.
Vorlons an Shadows are space boomers?
>The shadows, coming
The shadows were based coomers all along.
Trying to work out a good take on a vorlons/shadow dichotomy for my own setting, what would be some things to consider? Things to improve on from the original basos etc.?
I think the philosophical difference took took much from fantasy (law vs chaos) vs something that people are much more likely to encounter (imagine actually late stage capitalism where it doesn't collapse it collapses you or some nonsense, like a single survivor, the 0.000000001% who bought all his toys and competitors and so on and now doesn't want to move on and leave his stuff behind as the 99.999999% of the rest of his species did). You can probably think of something better (or let the pc's decide for you, are all your pc's buttholes? have it be butthole vs nice, are all your pc's plucky devil may care rebels? Well there you go).
And then, completely randomize the appearance of the two factions. Maybe throw in some intermediary factions (who are bigger then the current tech level but beneath the elders) who also look completely random. I always liked babylon 5 for actually taking the time to realize that civs would be all over the place from relatively well organized to chaotic (green vs purps, get out of here purps Black folk) and from tech backwater to advanced (with little or no directive to curtail that sort of thing, why would you let people live for centuries in shitty conditions).
I'm a lady.
Good for ya!
I loved B5, BSG, Star Trek TOS and Firefly. I watched Dark Matter and had a surprising planet-size blast.
Then I watched the Expanse. I really don't think I need TV shows about space anymore. Frick that asteroid belt full of calcified shit.
>The proud lord said
If you listen closely, you can still hear the echo of me screaming "NOOOOOO" when I learned that there was going to be a reboot of B5.
That being said, I've thought about it, and decided that I could be okay with it, provided that there is something IMMEDIATELY different right from the get-go in the series. Something that immediately tells us that this is going to play out as a very different story.
One thought I've had on that front is having the Dilgar still being around, as a vestigial empire after Omelos went nova. Their space is vastly reduced in size and their technological base has been thoroughly plundered by the Earth Alliance and the League of Non-Aligned Worlds. By treaty they're forbidden from having anything more than a purely defensive military.
The Dilgar have a non-voting council observer on Babylon 5. She can be female, which ups the number of female cast members without needing to change the sex of G'Kar or Londo or whoever. And she can be approached by Morden just like all the other ambassadors.
I also think I'd like there to be an actual Shadow character lurking on the station, as a counterpoint to Kosh. Never speaks, keeps to itself, is basically Morden's handler. It is by no means "good" (it can even be one of the Shadows that kills Kosh, if Kosh still dies), but I think it'd be fun if we did see that it wasn't thoroughly evil, either ("no one here is exactly who he appears", after all). Basically give us a perspective on the Shadows that isn't just "pure evil". The Shadows did originally, after all, have the goal of helping the younger races.
>Shadow character
Interesting maybe like a shadow stuffed into a meat suit or something? a character who is just always there in the back ground.
Nah, just a straight-up invisible spider person that can become visible at will.
Oh, I wasn't clear - no one knows that it's there except for Morden and probably Kosh. I don't mean that it should have, like, a suite in the ambassadorial wing or anything. It probably lives in Down Below.
There could even be an episode with a B-plot following it around. Again, it doesn't speak, but maybe show that it's not just some unflappable abomination, either - just like Kosh, it can be kind of a troll. Like its lair in Down Below might have trinkets that it's found amusing. Vorlons are the austere ones; the Shadow has a collection of bottlecaps or something. And it can even get bored lurking in Down Below with nothing to do, so occasionally it might go out and just take advantage of the fact that it's invisible to do something.
Something as well to show that maybe there's a good side to the Shadow philosophy. Like there's a lurker in Down Below that gets accosted by some thugs but manages to fight them off; the Shadow sees this and decides to clandestinely reward the lurker with, say, a few Centauri ducats or some other hard cash that the lurker can spend without it being traced to anywhere. But then the lurker just blows the cash on nothing in particular and ends up right where he started, disappointing the Shadow.
Could even borrow an idea from the Predators and have the Shadow occasionally "speak" by playing back lines it's recorded. As the lurker is lying on the ground back where he started in an empty hall, the words "you had your chance" (said previously by the thugs) echo.
Stuff like there. There's a lot that could be done with an actual Shadow on the station.
>maybe show that it's not just some unflappable abomination, either - just like Kosh, it can be kind of a troll
One of my favourite moments in B5 with Kosh was when the news crew was on board and trying to get interviews with people. In one scene they catch him just as he's coming out of his quarters, and he almost jumps as he turns around and bolts back inside, an "oh shit it's the press, run!" reaction from a normally unflappable mystical Vorlon.
Yeah. Plus there was Marcus and Franklin were mulling over how all of them corresponded to Arthurian legend, they ask "who's Merlin", and the crowd slightly parts and Kosh is right there and nods at them before walking off.
I like to imagine Kosh had some kind of precognitive vision of that conversation and rushed across the station's length to get there in time to be exactly in place. Having to walk normally when people can see him but otherwise outright running when no one is looking.
But yeah, also the ISN scare. On your first watch, you probably think it's Kosh just being deliberately mysterious. On your second watch, when you know that Vorlons and Shadows aren't really all that different from the younger races, just more advanced, you realize that Kosh was blindsided.
If I was going that way I'd have it be very strongly implied that it stayed behind when the others leave, hidden in the slums and the dark.
If it'd been Kosh's opposite for so very long it might have broken ranks when the terms of The Agreement were broken and he had to kill his oldest Associate.
Maybe it meets up with Leeta at the end and they walk off into the sunset together.
Maybe, though something feels wrong to me about having any of the First Ones stick around after Coriana 6, even this Shadow. It breaking with the Shadows to some extent I can get behind, but it should definitely leave with the rest of the Shadows.
The Shadow coming to kill Kosh could be played out pretty well and without dialogue, too, if done right - the door to Kosh's quarters open, Morden is in the doorway, he steps in but then to the side and three Shadows enter. They look identical. There's an extended moment of silence, with a close-up on Kosh and then on the three Shadows, though the camera slowly focuses on one in particular. Then two of the Shadow rush forward. The third - the one we'd focused on - starts forward, hesitates a moment, but then rushes in anyway.
We don't see much of the fight directly (need to focus on Kosh's last message to Sheridan), but when we get back Kosh's encounter suit is empty. One Shadow's encounter suit* is now sporting a bright gold "wound" (the others have much smaller "wounds" as well) but it's also the one standing over Kosh's empty suit with its claws and pose clear that it's the one that killed Kosh.
The other two Shadows go invisible and leave, and Morden does as well, but then realizes that the third Shadow is still there. He looks back, and its' claws are gently touching Kosh's helmet. Then it notices that it's noticed, and it, too, goes invisible.
For the rest of its appearances it still has the gold "scar" of the fight with Kosh. And also from that point forward it stops acting as menacing. its big moment of change is when the Shadows unveil their Death Cloud; that's when it finally realizes that its species have lost their way and needs to change.
----
*Canonically Shadows are beings of light just like Vorlons, the spider thing we see is just their version of an encounter suit
When Sheridan goes to Za'ha'dûm there should only be two bodyguards standing by Mr Morden. If there'd been three of them Mr Morden would probably not have been executed.
It could be leave, possibly with Leeta, with Sheridan when Lorien takes him to not!Avalon. Maybe it, like Sheridan, was given a little bit of grace time to make things right before it left.
Just stopping by here to say that Green is shit, Purple is the superior side.
You are not ready.
Reminder to watch every season of Babylon 5 if you haven't.
>Reminder to watch every season of Babylon 5 if you haven't.
A friend has twisted my arm into doing this. Season 5 was a dreadful slog.