I would, too, if the fundamental traits of humanity would continuously create and feed beings which are intend on oppressing humanity and perpetuating never-ending cycle of suffering, creation and destruction.
>literally the embodiment of all humanity
I dont see how it cant be the good option >but its just one universe so its impossible
I dont understand, who cares? That's like trying to argue 1/10 is not greater than 0/10
Yeah, I've seen the same thing being argued as well, but that's such a stupid thing to say when literally every ending happens within a single universe. Like, people are trying so hard to debunk it due to discomfort when confronted with a nano-possibility that The White might have value that they just scoop half of their brain matter to defend their "argument".
It's usually the least suckiest of the endings. Though I'd say that it's the ending with the least variation, even if people like to say that law and chaos are same-y and recycled with each iteration.
It's usually the least suckiest of the endings. Though I'd say that it's the ending with the least variation, even if people like to say that law and chaos are same-y and recycled with each iteration.
Outside of the few modern games (that have actively rewarded neutral) it's usually just passing off hot potato/flag to someone else to deal with worlds' bullshit while checking out of the system. A non-solution ending. Which I think is fine, gives every ending some weight depending on views of the player (rather than being "least suckiest")... which rubs me the wrong way that the modern neutral endings are now instead generic "enlightened centrist and objectively correct" option.
You can blame modern Jap devs obsession with "true" endings that invalidate all the other ones, I hate it so much it always makes the writing worse and removes all nuance from the player's choice.
You can blame modern Jap devs obsession with "true" endings that invalidate all the other ones, I hate it so much it always makes the writing worse and removes all nuance from the player's choice.
Yeah it'd be cool if they made a game where neutral was the extreme overbearing philosophy and you had to go looking for law and chaos and there was no true ending with more content.
It would be really hard to have something like that, Neutral is by definition the side where you try your best to make humanity not side with anyone but itself, which is really hard to turn into some sort of extremism on par with Law or Chaos since humans are, by necessity, the victims of both of those sides.
The closest we got to that was The White in SMTIV and it wasn't even the actual Neutral route, it was a fourth option that was just going tabula rasa on everything, which is not really what Neutral is about.
Also
How would this even work? Neutral doesn't have a driving force or leader or anything
is right, it's hard to make Neutral an extremist route since Neutral doesn't really have any patron like *Record Scratch* or Lucifer, the closest we got to a leader figure was Gore in SJ and even there he's just there to fundamentally remind you of your original duty, although you might argue Stephen could take that role in some future game.
Kind of? He was a super boss but other than that he wasn't really set up as an antagonist or faction leader, mostly because Stephen kinda plays his own game with the Axiom/Great Will and doesn't really meddle with people in the setting outside of very sporadic cases where he just gives the MCs the devil summoning program or slightly nudges them around.
The problem with Stephen is that essentially he never takes any hard position and is more of a plot device for the MC to take up arms and become part of the conflict, outside of that he doesn't really push you to any side.
He's ultimately on the side of humanity but he's also largely playing his own game when it comes to that compared to other neutral reps like Gore, Isabeau, Yakumo etc., Masakado would make for a better case since he's the closest thing one could have for a final boss of a neutral path, at least in terms of recurrent characters.
I can't describe to you how much I hate that character.
I mean, I'm not here to argue with you; just stating that we have the opposite opinion. And here's one good reason why you should go Chaos in SMT V, so you can hear
Despite being a Zan machine, plotwise Yoshio's a powerless idiot who couldn't save either his GF or his life and was purely supported by deus ex machina bullshit, considering the entire apocalypse was started by lawgays in the first place it's completely reasonable to dismiss them entirely because they're factually the worst and most openly villainous faction in the game.
Waruo's discount Virgil mixed in with an incel school shooter, he also sucks gameplay wise, the chaos side is also completely incompetent in SMT and especially weak gameplay wise, Enma is a total joke even for SMT1's standards which are fairly low and using Yukio Mishima as midboss doesn't really help selling Chaosgays.
Given all of this Futsuo's automatically the least bad choice, whether you like it or not, which is on par with the series' Neutral side really.
SMT V came close to this, the neutral rep feels quite edgy and the normal neutral ending leads to conflict where many people die with no real conclusion.
Of course they still ruined it by having a TRUE neutral ending but they almost did it right, all they have to do is simply make it flawed like the other aligments rather than giving it special treatment as the ideal choice.
Law is almost always the source of everything wrong in the first place even in the games people try to argue law comes off well. chaos depends on the game, sometimes it's just comically toothless
Neutral is just "geez these guys are crazy" or "humans first" which is hard to make look too bad, since the player is human
I'm a nihilist and Anarchist IRL, and a hardcore ChaosChad.
Frick the state, frick the market, ALL authority is ultimately arbitrary and illegitimate.
Althought I like playing the Law route in SMT games SOLELY because you get access to angel demons with healing + automatic nuke button in Megiddo
Authority/law is inherently force. As long as you don’t wish to die or have force inflicted upon you, you inherently desire it.
If you truly were a nihilist you would have killed yourself Law Route is generally worse off than Chaos imo I’ll give you that
I assume you mean in the context of SMT1, since you used that image. That game pushes the Neutrality path pretty heavily but let’s look at the outcomes >law route has the world under the power of YHVH >chaos route is basically deity feudalism, with Lucifer pulling strings behind the shadows >Neutral is just leaving it to man
It’s pretty clear Neutral is the better option, at least in that game.
This too. With Law you expect that, but oftentimes Chaos is just the Lucifer route sadly. >”the devil is just another b***h of the Lord”(Last Shift, damn good horror film)
I wish there were more nuanced paths for Law and Chaos. Some games in the series have them, but not enough.
Teenagers are the ones naiive enough to still believe in order and law.
Adulthood is realising laws are only as effective as their enforcement and application, and true goodness comes from pure morality.
Depends on the game quite a bit. SMT1 is slanted to neutral, but the Law ending is also pretty good. YHWH being this hateful, evil being isn't a thing in SMT 1, so it seems like a somewhat hopeful ending but with big sacrifices.
But in other SMT games, like 2 and 4, Law ending is ridiculous. Rather than making a big sacrifice for the safety of humanity, it's just making a large sacrifice for, actually, nothing! It's just a slaughter. SMT 1 is still the best game in the franchise for having the most balanced portrayals of each of the alignments.
I don’t know if flooding the world in SMT1 is anything but hateful, especially since YHVH is breaking his promise to Noah to never flood the world again
The way I saw it, the flooding of the world was a reference to the story in Genesis, and not something that had happened in the world of the story. The mythology of SMT is very gnostic, and I see YHWH and Lucifer not as being the same thing as from israeli/Abrahamic religions, but rather their own thing with the same name, roughly. There's no Greater Will in Judaism/Christianity, for example.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the promise to never flood the world again never happened in the SMT world, and the flood in SMT 1 is moreso a reference to the event than a repeat. And I don't see it as being strictly evil, since I think the idea of it was eradicate the demons on earth in order to save humanity, though at the cost that not every live could be saved.
Law nuked japan in smt 1 dude, not to mention the flood
I don't understand apologia for smt law, I assume they're christians that can't handle that japan hates their guts
Actually, Japanese gamers are more likely to pick the Law route, ironically enough >https://megatengaku.wordpress.com/readings/background-articles/game-spite-law-chaos-and-american-way/
People treat SMT like ideological wish fulfillment. The alignments were never meant to be some role playing fantasy. They are simply the means that the games uses to demonstrate how someone could possibly find themselves on the path of law and chaos, and to illustrate why protecting humanity's free will is so important.
>B...but true demon ending
Was an expansion for the base game; which the base was clearly supportive of SMTs neutrality. Nocturne was all about how we just cannot do some things alone and how moronic rejecting humanity is. >But... Strange Journey
Also the same thing >But humanity in of itself is worthless and we should follow on the path of demons
homosexual
>writers coped out by making Neutral the "canon" route/ending in the later games.
There is zero reason why anyone who values their free will and humanity in the SMTverse would align themselves with law or chaos. The writers purposefully have made SMT so that the choice essentially boils down to embracing or rejecting humanity. There is no room for expanding law and chaos to be "sensible" choices, cause they aren't sensible within SMTs metaphysics anyway. It's better if people move on and play the multitude of other games out there that have morality systems.
>writers coped out by making Neutral the "canon" route/ending in the later games.
There is zero reason why anyone who values their free will and humanity in the SMTverse would align themselves with law or chaos. The writers purposefully have made SMT so that the choice essentially boils down to embracing or rejecting humanity. There is no room for expanding law and chaos to be "sensible" choices, cause they aren't sensible within SMTs metaphysics anyway. It's better if people move on and play the multitude of other games out there that have morality systems.
I just want to stop and say that I really like that V gave two different neutral options. I hope they do that in the future, as in, expanding the definition of law, chaos and neutral with multiple choices for each.
As much of a shit show that V's story was, I still think it arguably has the most based true neutral ending. It was fun to see people seething about the Nahobino BTFOing all of demonkind for humanity.
>It was fun to see people seething about the Nahobino BTFOing all of demonkind for humanity.
People were mad they spent the whole game mainly helping and befriending demons only to wipe them out. However the typical normie doesn't realize, demons can never really die, nor can they change their nature. You have good demons that want to live peacefully with humans but there are so few compared to the rest that just want to manipulate and kill them for their own gain. How do you filter the good from the bad? What if you pick out a demon you believe is good and it turns out later you were wrong? And what if you weren't wrong but the demons you spare lead to more demons appearing? As much as the MC clearly had love for a select few demons, like Aogami, the decision to spare him would have only led to problems down the line. It's all or nothing if you want actual security. Even then, humans can still summon demons back because as I said earlier, demon can never really be killed. True neutral is about giving humans their best chance at living without demon kind manipulating them. It's a fresh start.
Also people forget that it's Susanoo we're talking about here. A god that got thrown out of heaven, slays demons and represents mankind. Aogami tells you before peaceing out that you share the same soul and its what he wouldve done. In lore, Susanoo is supposed to be a very human god and often gets depicted defending humans (he eventually fricks off to the world of the dead where his mom's at)
>People were mad they spent the whole game mainly helping and befriending demons only to wipe them out >>True neutral is about giving humans their best chance at living without demon kind manipulating them. It's a fresh start.
That's what I meant, I liked that they actually made you sacrifice something to get the true neutral ending. People wanted to have their cake and eat it to. If you value humanity above demons, then you need to accept their eradication to create a world for humanity alone. People just did not want to commit.
>People were mad they spent the whole game mainly helping and befriending demons only to wipe them out >>True neutral is about giving humans their best chance at living without demon kind manipulating them. It's a fresh start.
That's what I meant, I liked that they actually made you sacrifice something to get the true neutral ending. People wanted to have their cake and eat it to. If you value humanity above demons, then you need to accept their eradication to create a world for humanity alone. People just did not want to commit.
the true neutral's biggest problem was that the rest of the story never made any of the humans likeable enough to kill all the demons for
>you need to make the humans likable
The humans were as humans are. Also there is a ton of npc dialog in Tokyo of people forgetting their loved ones or remarking on how Tokyo is disappearing. I don't know if physically showing that would have made a difference.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>>I don't know if physically showing that would have made a difference
This.
[...]
the true neutral's biggest problem was that the rest of the story never made any of the humans likeable enough to kill all the demons for
Anon, if you need convincing that humanity needs to be protected, then just align yourself with demons. People who pick the true neutral ending support protecting humanity's free will at all costs.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Most people don't choose true neutral because they believe in it but because it's the only fleshed out ending in the game. If they had given the same effort to law and chaos it would feel like a genuine moral choice instead of the player being punished for keeping demons alive.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>If they had given the same effort to law and chaos it would feel like a genuine moral choice instead of the player being punished for keeping demons alive.
SMT is not ideological wish fulfillment, nor was it meant to be some moral role playing fantasy. The games are meant to be a narrative in support of humanity and displaying how someone could potentially end up on the side of law or chaos. If that isn't what people want, they should play other games with a morality system.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>make routes based on ideologies central to the game >the writer's favorite ideology is the correct route and the others are just contrast to make it look good >woooow bugged morality mechanics
3 months ago
Anonymous
>>>make routes based on ideologies central to the game >>the writer's favorite ideology is the correct route and the others are just contrast to make it look good
Correct, I don't see the issue here.
3 months ago
Anonymous
If that's the case then remove law and chaos as options
3 months ago
Anonymous
No, because they are used as a storytelling device to make the player understand the significance of SMTs brand of neutrality. SMTIV especially emphasizes this repetition as part of its narrative.
3 months ago
Anonymous
The problem with true neutral in V is that you don't get any content when you pursue law or chaos. You don't see the world that results from your decision or how your decision impacts anything in the present like you do in IV. True neutral isn't strengthened by any other ending's existence because it's the only ending atlus wants you to see
3 months ago
Anonymous
>The problem with true neutral in V is that you don't get any content when you pursue law or chaos. You don't see the world that results from your decision or how your decision impacts anything in the present like you do in IV
Because it is a rushed game and it clearly shows with the story. They show the consequences on an ending slideshow expect true neutral. I do not disagree that V and other entries need better writers. However, my point is that SMTs style of writing will always remain the same. It will always be a narrative that supports and highlights neutrality. Everything else in the game serves only to enhance that point. Trying to argue for law or chaos in SMT is folly, when the entirety of the series' metaphysics is based on how moronic they both are, and using that to show it in game.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Trying to argue for law or chaos in SMT is folly, when the entirety of the series' metaphysics is based on how moronic they both are
I can agree with this. Law and chaos are fun to see play out but I usually pick neutral for the most satisfying experience in the end. I was just disappointed V did such a poor job convincing me to be pro human especially compared to how sympathetic I was towards the demons this time
3 months ago
Anonymous
>>the writer's favorite ideology is the correct route and the others are just contrast to make it look good
That's every alignment system ever and 90% of narrative in general
Law Hero was a bro the whole game. He had your back from the moment he joined the party, never left you hanging, and even saved your life at the cost of his own.
Compare that to Chaos Hero. Motherfricker stole a demon and ditched your ass at the earliest convenience. He doesn't give a frick about you. He said it himself, he only wants strength, and you're a stepping stone.
Killing Chaos Hero is easy. He deserves it and might as well be asking for it through his ideology.
Killing Law Hero is hard. He doesn't deserve it. You can argue whether or not he was brainwashed or if he just fell for the propaganda in Heaven (as if there's a difference). Arguably, it's for the best that he's put down, but that just puts his soul right back into the hands of the butthole who did that to him. He understands, too, that he is just a sacrifice. There's no rest in sight for the poor bastard who just wanted to help.
Due to the actions of these parties against those I care about (Chaos Hero against myself, Record Scratch against Law Hero), it's impossible for me to in earnestly endorse either ideology, forcing me to walk my own path instead.
FRICK LAW
FRICK CHAOS
NEUTRALITY IS ALL THAT REMAINS
Neutral is boring. I don't get peons who debate smt endings. Neutral is always the perfect true ending with no extreme. No shit its the easiest to argue for. I can't imagine making a post like this
instead of neutral being a power or force, what if the status quo was untenable? The current/neutral situation sucks so much that Law or Chaos would be preferable or even morally/ethically responsible?
>woah chaos world would be just like le modern dystopian civilization full of women race-mixing :O
Isn't chaos the total destruction of civilization as feral demons spread across the planet? Rules of Nature shit? There would be no post-modernism. All of your energy would be devoted to surviving alongside your warband so that you don't get eaten by demons. Women wouldn't be wandering around unattended and racemixing.
A continuation of the current state of affairs is what Neutral represents, no?
Have they ever definitively shown what the world of a chaos ending would look like in a way that applies between games? I mean, from Japan's point if view they were never christianized so they were living in a chaos ending for all of their history
That's just sj and Jimenez though. Like look at smt 2, it has the most care bear demons imaginable, chaos ending means nothing beyond not being violently oppressed by God or planetary genocided by Satan
it depends heavily on the game.
SMT 1 - Neutral. We get to see what Law becomes in 2 which is not a great place to be for most people, and chaos surrenders the only habitable chunk of land on Earth to demons
SMT 2 - Chaos. Neutral is just Chaos but without the aid of a powerful demon to make sure things go fine. Law is re-surrendering control of the world to the people who made it living hell
SMT 3 - Doesn't really have alignments but the Musubi reason is the best one objectively, even though everyone does TDE for content.
Strange Journey - Law. Only guarantee that humanity doesn't get wiped out. Ignore Redux's fanfiction but new law is still the best one there lel
SMT 4 - Neutral but it's really hamfisted
SMT 4a - see above
SMT 5 - Law but they're all boring and not really worth discussing
As for spinoffs, only Devil Survivor really has ones worth talking about and while Naoya's route is the coolest by far the best one for humanity is probably Amane's (law)
While I agree with most of these, I don't think neutral is the most fitting for SMT1. At the end of the day, neutral is just passing the buck in that game (and in most of them). Either Law or Chaos is still going to take control, but you've essentially delayed it some and have passed the problem on to someone else.
the only real choice to debate in the games is law vs chaos. neutral is pure wish fulfillment and for completionists. i treat it as fanfiction. its just too boring with basically no compromise. its like siding with yesman
In smt 1 neutral is the best option because it’s the only game that has a true solution tied to that ending. The world was fricked and control over the ark was all that mattered. In each game though there tends to be one ending written to be outright better than all the others with neutral really just turning out to be pushing back the issue for a few generations. law is objectively awful in 2 cause yvhm isn’t distinguished from god yet so the backbone of the entire law faction just genocided humanity
Neutral usually being just little longer maintaining a balance is thematic and charming though, it's the choice with humility. that you aren't deciding for everyone, you're just knocking out the people that want to decide things for everyone else.
That’s the only issue I have with redux. The nu law and chaos are basically perfect in the view of the game but the neutral ending is arbitrarily allowing humans to repeat the same things that almost caused their extinction repeatedly and giving no effort towards fixing their path. It’s somehow the complete opposite of 4’s ending
It's a downer if you've never played SJ before but if you already know the happy ending version it's cool to see neutral criticized on its own terms when it's usually just a jerkoff session
Alignments in SMT are always in the context of humanity. Anyone who thinks humanity is essentially worthless in of itself without demons will side with law or chaos. SJ nu law and chaos are perfect if you are someone who is either utilitarian or thinks humanity should erase their vestiges of humanity to embrace the demonic. The neutral alignment is about putting humanity's free will first. Shit will always repeat in the SMTverse, no matter what aligment currently rules. But at least with humanity, there is hope and free will. Something that demons lack as they are destined to live predetermined lives.
>Gods and demons gave up the ability to change for a form of immortality - Loa/SMT Nocturne
There's only one correct option: The White.
Those guys need therapy, they have serious depression.
I would, too, if the fundamental traits of humanity would continuously create and feed beings which are intend on oppressing humanity and perpetuating never-ending cycle of suffering, creation and destruction.
>literally the embodiment of all humanity
I dont see how it cant be the good option
>but its just one universe so its impossible
I dont understand, who cares? That's like trying to argue 1/10 is not greater than 0/10
They will never show up again will they
>but its just one universe so its impossible
Yeah, I've seen the same thing being argued as well, but that's such a stupid thing to say when literally every ending happens within a single universe. Like, people are trying so hard to debunk it due to discomfort when confronted with a nano-possibility that The White might have value that they just scoop half of their brain matter to defend their "argument".
you post would have more impact if you just said "The White"
white gang where we @
I don't understand people who play SMT and pick neutral route. I really don't.
It's usually the least suckiest of the endings. Though I'd say that it's the ending with the least variation, even if people like to say that law and chaos are same-y and recycled with each iteration.
Neutral route is presented as rejecting both extremes, and it usually has more content than either Law/Chaos. Not really that mystifying.
Outside of the few modern games (that have actively rewarded neutral) it's usually just passing off hot potato/flag to someone else to deal with worlds' bullshit while checking out of the system. A non-solution ending. Which I think is fine, gives every ending some weight depending on views of the player (rather than being "least suckiest")... which rubs me the wrong way that the modern neutral endings are now instead generic "enlightened centrist and objectively correct" option.
You can blame modern Jap devs obsession with "true" endings that invalidate all the other ones, I hate it so much it always makes the writing worse and removes all nuance from the player's choice.
Yeah it'd be cool if they made a game where neutral was the extreme overbearing philosophy and you had to go looking for law and chaos and there was no true ending with more content.
Nocturne had a chaos flavored "true" ending. They should just take turns, V was a great setup for a law flavored one.
How would this even work? Neutral doesn't have a driving force or leader or anything
It would be really hard to have something like that, Neutral is by definition the side where you try your best to make humanity not side with anyone but itself, which is really hard to turn into some sort of extremism on par with Law or Chaos since humans are, by necessity, the victims of both of those sides.
The closest we got to that was The White in SMTIV and it wasn't even the actual Neutral route, it was a fourth option that was just going tabula rasa on everything, which is not really what Neutral is about.
Also
is right, it's hard to make Neutral an extremist route since Neutral doesn't really have any patron like *Record Scratch* or Lucifer, the closest we got to a leader figure was Gore in SJ and even there he's just there to fundamentally remind you of your original duty, although you might argue Stephen could take that role in some future game.
Didn't Stephen technically take that route with 4A?
Kind of? He was a super boss but other than that he wasn't really set up as an antagonist or faction leader, mostly because Stephen kinda plays his own game with the Axiom/Great Will and doesn't really meddle with people in the setting outside of very sporadic cases where he just gives the MCs the devil summoning program or slightly nudges them around.
The problem with Stephen is that essentially he never takes any hard position and is more of a plot device for the MC to take up arms and become part of the conflict, outside of that he doesn't really push you to any side.
He's ultimately on the side of humanity but he's also largely playing his own game when it comes to that compared to other neutral reps like Gore, Isabeau, Yakumo etc., Masakado would make for a better case since he's the closest thing one could have for a final boss of a neutral path, at least in terms of recurrent characters.
I like Isabeau, a shame neutral in IV is a pain un the ass
I can't describe to you how much I hate that character.
I mean, I'm not here to argue with you; just stating that we have the opposite opinion. And here's one good reason why you should go Chaos in SMT V, so you can hear
Despite being a Zan machine, plotwise Yoshio's a powerless idiot who couldn't save either his GF or his life and was purely supported by deus ex machina bullshit, considering the entire apocalypse was started by lawgays in the first place it's completely reasonable to dismiss them entirely because they're factually the worst and most openly villainous faction in the game.
Waruo's discount Virgil mixed in with an incel school shooter, he also sucks gameplay wise, the chaos side is also completely incompetent in SMT and especially weak gameplay wise, Enma is a total joke even for SMT1's standards which are fairly low and using Yukio Mishima as midboss doesn't really help selling Chaosgays.
Given all of this Futsuo's automatically the least bad choice, whether you like it or not, which is on par with the series' Neutral side really.
That's because you're a failure as a human being
>That's because you're a failure as a human being
Oh, great. I am being insulted by Justin Trudeau.
SMT V came close to this, the neutral rep feels quite edgy and the normal neutral ending leads to conflict where many people die with no real conclusion.
Of course they still ruined it by having a TRUE neutral ending but they almost did it right, all they have to do is simply make it flawed like the other aligments rather than giving it special treatment as the ideal choice.
Tokyo is thrown into a demon apocalypse AGAIN?
Everybody is dying tonight.
>raidou
>neutral
kek. he's a chaosBoy through and through. He just doesn't decide to frick the world because it's not to his alignment.
Joker isn't chaos. Stealing someone's heart reverts them back into having "normal" Japanese standards of right and wrong.
Law is almost always the source of everything wrong in the first place even in the games people try to argue law comes off well. chaos depends on the game, sometimes it's just comically toothless
Neutral is just "geez these guys are crazy" or "humans first" which is hard to make look too bad, since the player is human
Because frick your reasons. I do what I want unless your bullshit aligns with my bullshit.
That's chaos.
I'm a nihilist and Anarchist IRL, and a hardcore ChaosChad.
Frick the state, frick the market, ALL authority is ultimately arbitrary and illegitimate.
Althought I like playing the Law route in SMT games SOLELY because you get access to angel demons with healing + automatic nuke button in Megiddo
Authority/law is inherently force. As long as you don’t wish to die or have force inflicted upon you, you inherently desire it.
If you truly were a nihilist you would have killed yourself
Law Route is generally worse off than Chaos imo I’ll give you that
Don't both sides ultimately appeal to an authority system, either centralized or distributed?
I assume you mean in the context of SMT1, since you used that image. That game pushes the Neutrality path pretty heavily but let’s look at the outcomes
>law route has the world under the power of YHVH
>chaos route is basically deity feudalism, with Lucifer pulling strings behind the shadows
>Neutral is just leaving it to man
It’s pretty clear Neutral is the better option, at least in that game.
This too. With Law you expect that, but oftentimes Chaos is just the Lucifer route sadly.
>”the devil is just another b***h of the Lord”(Last Shift, damn good horror film)
I wish there were more nuanced paths for Law and Chaos. Some games in the series have them, but not enough.
Teenagers are the ones naiive enough to still believe in order and law.
Adulthood is realising laws are only as effective as their enforcement and application, and true goodness comes from pure morality.
Unfortunately, chaos is right.
the route that allows me to enjoy the most content therefore Neutral
Depends on the game quite a bit. SMT1 is slanted to neutral, but the Law ending is also pretty good. YHWH being this hateful, evil being isn't a thing in SMT 1, so it seems like a somewhat hopeful ending but with big sacrifices.
But in other SMT games, like 2 and 4, Law ending is ridiculous. Rather than making a big sacrifice for the safety of humanity, it's just making a large sacrifice for, actually, nothing! It's just a slaughter. SMT 1 is still the best game in the franchise for having the most balanced portrayals of each of the alignments.
I don’t know if flooding the world in SMT1 is anything but hateful, especially since YHVH is breaking his promise to Noah to never flood the world again
The way I saw it, the flooding of the world was a reference to the story in Genesis, and not something that had happened in the world of the story. The mythology of SMT is very gnostic, and I see YHWH and Lucifer not as being the same thing as from israeli/Abrahamic religions, but rather their own thing with the same name, roughly. There's no Greater Will in Judaism/Christianity, for example.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the promise to never flood the world again never happened in the SMT world, and the flood in SMT 1 is moreso a reference to the event than a repeat. And I don't see it as being strictly evil, since I think the idea of it was eradicate the demons on earth in order to save humanity, though at the cost that not every live could be saved.
Law nuked japan in smt 1 dude, not to mention the flood
I don't understand apologia for smt law, I assume they're christians that can't handle that japan hates their guts
Actually, Japanese gamers are more likely to pick the Law route, ironically enough
>https://megatengaku.wordpress.com/readings/background-articles/game-spite-law-chaos-and-american-way/
Your link is talking about a very idiosyncratic example of law in the series. The usual version is the christian god fricking you in the mouth
None.
All 3 are crazy.
Neutral gays are always correct
People treat SMT like ideological wish fulfillment. The alignments were never meant to be some role playing fantasy. They are simply the means that the games uses to demonstrate how someone could possibly find themselves on the path of law and chaos, and to illustrate why protecting humanity's free will is so important.
>B...but true demon ending
Was an expansion for the base game; which the base was clearly supportive of SMTs neutrality. Nocturne was all about how we just cannot do some things alone and how moronic rejecting humanity is.
>But... Strange Journey
Also the same thing
>But humanity in of itself is worthless and we should follow on the path of demons
homosexual
Some anon already said this, writers coped out by making Neutral the "canon" route/ending in the later games.
Those Japanese are too conformist!
>writers coped out by making Neutral the "canon" route/ending in the later games.
There is zero reason why anyone who values their free will and humanity in the SMTverse would align themselves with law or chaos. The writers purposefully have made SMT so that the choice essentially boils down to embracing or rejecting humanity. There is no room for expanding law and chaos to be "sensible" choices, cause they aren't sensible within SMTs metaphysics anyway. It's better if people move on and play the multitude of other games out there that have morality systems.
I just want to stop and say that I really like that V gave two different neutral options. I hope they do that in the future, as in, expanding the definition of law, chaos and neutral with multiple choices for each.
As much of a shit show that V's story was, I still think it arguably has the most based true neutral ending. It was fun to see people seething about the Nahobino BTFOing all of demonkind for humanity.
>It was fun to see people seething about the Nahobino BTFOing all of demonkind for humanity.
People were mad they spent the whole game mainly helping and befriending demons only to wipe them out. However the typical normie doesn't realize, demons can never really die, nor can they change their nature. You have good demons that want to live peacefully with humans but there are so few compared to the rest that just want to manipulate and kill them for their own gain. How do you filter the good from the bad? What if you pick out a demon you believe is good and it turns out later you were wrong? And what if you weren't wrong but the demons you spare lead to more demons appearing? As much as the MC clearly had love for a select few demons, like Aogami, the decision to spare him would have only led to problems down the line. It's all or nothing if you want actual security. Even then, humans can still summon demons back because as I said earlier, demon can never really be killed. True neutral is about giving humans their best chance at living without demon kind manipulating them. It's a fresh start.
Also people forget that it's Susanoo we're talking about here. A god that got thrown out of heaven, slays demons and represents mankind. Aogami tells you before peaceing out that you share the same soul and its what he wouldve done. In lore, Susanoo is supposed to be a very human god and often gets depicted defending humans (he eventually fricks off to the world of the dead where his mom's at)
>People were mad they spent the whole game mainly helping and befriending demons only to wipe them out
>>True neutral is about giving humans their best chance at living without demon kind manipulating them. It's a fresh start.
That's what I meant, I liked that they actually made you sacrifice something to get the true neutral ending. People wanted to have their cake and eat it to. If you value humanity above demons, then you need to accept their eradication to create a world for humanity alone. People just did not want to commit.
the true neutral's biggest problem was that the rest of the story never made any of the humans likeable enough to kill all the demons for
>you need to make the humans likable
The humans were as humans are. Also there is a ton of npc dialog in Tokyo of people forgetting their loved ones or remarking on how Tokyo is disappearing. I don't know if physically showing that would have made a difference.
>>I don't know if physically showing that would have made a difference
This.
Anon, if you need convincing that humanity needs to be protected, then just align yourself with demons. People who pick the true neutral ending support protecting humanity's free will at all costs.
Most people don't choose true neutral because they believe in it but because it's the only fleshed out ending in the game. If they had given the same effort to law and chaos it would feel like a genuine moral choice instead of the player being punished for keeping demons alive.
>If they had given the same effort to law and chaos it would feel like a genuine moral choice instead of the player being punished for keeping demons alive.
SMT is not ideological wish fulfillment, nor was it meant to be some moral role playing fantasy. The games are meant to be a narrative in support of humanity and displaying how someone could potentially end up on the side of law or chaos. If that isn't what people want, they should play other games with a morality system.
>make routes based on ideologies central to the game
>the writer's favorite ideology is the correct route and the others are just contrast to make it look good
>woooow bugged morality mechanics
>>>make routes based on ideologies central to the game
>>the writer's favorite ideology is the correct route and the others are just contrast to make it look good
Correct, I don't see the issue here.
If that's the case then remove law and chaos as options
No, because they are used as a storytelling device to make the player understand the significance of SMTs brand of neutrality. SMTIV especially emphasizes this repetition as part of its narrative.
The problem with true neutral in V is that you don't get any content when you pursue law or chaos. You don't see the world that results from your decision or how your decision impacts anything in the present like you do in IV. True neutral isn't strengthened by any other ending's existence because it's the only ending atlus wants you to see
>The problem with true neutral in V is that you don't get any content when you pursue law or chaos. You don't see the world that results from your decision or how your decision impacts anything in the present like you do in IV
Because it is a rushed game and it clearly shows with the story. They show the consequences on an ending slideshow expect true neutral. I do not disagree that V and other entries need better writers. However, my point is that SMTs style of writing will always remain the same. It will always be a narrative that supports and highlights neutrality. Everything else in the game serves only to enhance that point. Trying to argue for law or chaos in SMT is folly, when the entirety of the series' metaphysics is based on how moronic they both are, and using that to show it in game.
>Trying to argue for law or chaos in SMT is folly, when the entirety of the series' metaphysics is based on how moronic they both are
I can agree with this. Law and chaos are fun to see play out but I usually pick neutral for the most satisfying experience in the end. I was just disappointed V did such a poor job convincing me to be pro human especially compared to how sympathetic I was towards the demons this time
>>the writer's favorite ideology is the correct route and the others are just contrast to make it look good
That's every alignment system ever and 90% of narrative in general
Law would be good if it wasn't based on Cucktianity
It’s not, law is just gnostic judaism with only the imagery and hierarchy taken from Christianity. Also obligatory seethe pagan
Law by far
Seeing as the other two only ever accomplish their goals via force, Chaos is correct.
Law Hero was a bro the whole game. He had your back from the moment he joined the party, never left you hanging, and even saved your life at the cost of his own.
Compare that to Chaos Hero. Motherfricker stole a demon and ditched your ass at the earliest convenience. He doesn't give a frick about you. He said it himself, he only wants strength, and you're a stepping stone.
Killing Chaos Hero is easy. He deserves it and might as well be asking for it through his ideology.
Killing Law Hero is hard. He doesn't deserve it. You can argue whether or not he was brainwashed or if he just fell for the propaganda in Heaven (as if there's a difference). Arguably, it's for the best that he's put down, but that just puts his soul right back into the hands of the butthole who did that to him. He understands, too, that he is just a sacrifice. There's no rest in sight for the poor bastard who just wanted to help.
Due to the actions of these parties against those I care about (Chaos Hero against myself, Record Scratch against Law Hero), it's impossible for me to in earnestly endorse either ideology, forcing me to walk my own path instead.
FRICK LAW
FRICK CHAOS
NEUTRALITY IS ALL THAT REMAINS
>forcing me to walk my own path instead
Except your goaded into taking said path by a supernatural entity like the others, also using you to do their dirty work. The choice was never yours.
Neutral is boring. I don't get peons who debate smt endings. Neutral is always the perfect true ending with no extreme. No shit its the easiest to argue for. I can't imagine making a post like this
In my youth I sided with chaos for muh freedom. Now I know God is right. Reformed lawgay
instead of neutral being a power or force, what if the status quo was untenable? The current/neutral situation sucks so much that Law or Chaos would be preferable or even morally/ethically responsible?
Left= world without god
right= world with god
Chaos gays unironically prefer the left but we know what's right
Wrong image
>world with God grants people ugly AI NPC children
Fitting.
>woah chaos world would be just like le modern dystopian civilization full of women race-mixing :O
Isn't chaos the total destruction of civilization as feral demons spread across the planet? Rules of Nature shit? There would be no post-modernism. All of your energy would be devoted to surviving alongside your warband so that you don't get eaten by demons. Women wouldn't be wandering around unattended and racemixing.
A continuation of the current state of affairs is what Neutral represents, no?
Yea you're probably right about it being the neutral ending. But I had only two panels to work with so I did my best making the analogy
God frick do I absolutely hate the neutral endings in these games.
Have they ever definitively shown what the world of a chaos ending would look like in a way that applies between games? I mean, from Japan's point if view they were never christianized so they were living in a chaos ending for all of their history
It looks something like this.
That's just sj and Jimenez though. Like look at smt 2, it has the most care bear demons imaginable, chaos ending means nothing beyond not being violently oppressed by God or planetary genocided by Satan
it depends heavily on the game.
SMT 1 - Neutral. We get to see what Law becomes in 2 which is not a great place to be for most people, and chaos surrenders the only habitable chunk of land on Earth to demons
SMT 2 - Chaos. Neutral is just Chaos but without the aid of a powerful demon to make sure things go fine. Law is re-surrendering control of the world to the people who made it living hell
SMT 3 - Doesn't really have alignments but the Musubi reason is the best one objectively, even though everyone does TDE for content.
Strange Journey - Law. Only guarantee that humanity doesn't get wiped out. Ignore Redux's fanfiction but new law is still the best one there lel
SMT 4 - Neutral but it's really hamfisted
SMT 4a - see above
SMT 5 - Law but they're all boring and not really worth discussing
As for spinoffs, only Devil Survivor really has ones worth talking about and while Naoya's route is the coolest by far the best one for humanity is probably Amane's (law)
While I agree with most of these, I don't think neutral is the most fitting for SMT1. At the end of the day, neutral is just passing the buck in that game (and in most of them). Either Law or Chaos is still going to take control, but you've essentially delayed it some and have passed the problem on to someone else.
Passing the buck was the point though, you're protecting people from alien domination not enforcing your own vision on them
Neither did the dev team, apparently.
Me and I'll fricking kill you if you disagree, I'd even kill my friends!
the only real choice to debate in the games is law vs chaos. neutral is pure wish fulfillment and for completionists. i treat it as fanfiction. its just too boring with basically no compromise. its like siding with yesman
>its just too boring with basically no compromise. its like siding with yesman
Did you only play IV?
In smt 1 neutral is the best option because it’s the only game that has a true solution tied to that ending. The world was fricked and control over the ark was all that mattered. In each game though there tends to be one ending written to be outright better than all the others with neutral really just turning out to be pushing back the issue for a few generations. law is objectively awful in 2 cause yvhm isn’t distinguished from god yet so the backbone of the entire law faction just genocided humanity
Neutral usually being just little longer maintaining a balance is thematic and charming though, it's the choice with humility. that you aren't deciding for everyone, you're just knocking out the people that want to decide things for everyone else.
*And sj redux is the correct critique of this, basically "how long can you keep enabling human failure"
That’s the only issue I have with redux. The nu law and chaos are basically perfect in the view of the game but the neutral ending is arbitrarily allowing humans to repeat the same things that almost caused their extinction repeatedly and giving no effort towards fixing their path. It’s somehow the complete opposite of 4’s ending
It's a downer if you've never played SJ before but if you already know the happy ending version it's cool to see neutral criticized on its own terms when it's usually just a jerkoff session
Alignments in SMT are always in the context of humanity. Anyone who thinks humanity is essentially worthless in of itself without demons will side with law or chaos. SJ nu law and chaos are perfect if you are someone who is either utilitarian or thinks humanity should erase their vestiges of humanity to embrace the demonic. The neutral alignment is about putting humanity's free will first. Shit will always repeat in the SMTverse, no matter what aligment currently rules. But at least with humanity, there is hope and free will. Something that demons lack as they are destined to live predetermined lives.
>Gods and demons gave up the ability to change for a form of immortality - Loa/SMT Nocturne
I mean in your picture law is left, neutral is middle and chaos is right.