Unless the writer is a moron, Sauron wins by default. No corrupt or evil being can ever hope to defeat him. Even fricking Frodo Baggins, the goodest and most innocent of lads, ends up claiming the ring for his own and it takes a literal Deus ex machina to cast the ring into the fire. Even Boromir, a noble and loyal dude tries to take the ring from Frodo at some point with catastrophic consequences. Shit is fricked. And that if and only if Sauron does not get his ring back.
Vamp Counts Vs the witch king would be a better match.
So what? If Carstein uses the ring to fight Sauron. The one ring might turn him evil and corrupted (which he already is anyway) but it does not automatically make him saurons slave. Also considering the air force of the VC it does not look good for Mordors mostly ground based army imo. Also Fellbeasts would be absolutely torn apart by Varghulfs, Terrorgheists and Zombie Dragons. The necromancers of the vampire Counts could take advantage of Sauron's beat them by numbers strategy and awaken hordes of fallen orcs to use against their former master.
Carstein could use the ring to defeat Sauron, but as long as it exists Sauron doesn't die. Carstein could destroy it after defeating Sauron but being an evil being means he's already screwed in terms of resisting it. In the end Sauron returns and takes the ring was a Carstein that has lost all independent will.
Incorrect. JRR tolkien letter 246 contradicts this; a sufficiently powerful figure (in this set of speculation from the author, Gandalf) using the Ring to destroy Sauron would "kill" him every bit as effectively as destroying the Ring would.
Yes. The problem with Gandalf taking the ring isn't that Sauron would somehow manage to win by subverting him - Sauron would be fricking dead. The problem is that Gandalf would in Tallkin's estimation become an even worse Lord than Sauron due to his tyranny clothing itself in righteousness.
The ring does not turn you evil you dumb frick. The ring makes you the ring's b***h. Isildur wanted to preserve the ring in his lineage so that no harm would come to it. The ring has a will of its own and that will is that of Sauron. To use it is to insta-lose because as long as the ring exists so will Sauron. A year, a hundred... it does not matter because eventually you will end up enslaved by it. Sauron also used werewolves and vampires, which are pretty fricking strong in LotR.
>As long as the ring exists so will Sauron.
not necessarily in phisical form though and being reduced to a ghost without any importance sounds like losing to me. >The ring makes you the ring's b***h
No it only does that with hobbits or other peasants if you are powerful enough it increases your powers. Had gandalf for example taken the ring to fight against sauron he would have won but his reign would have been arguably worse than saurons since he'd basically replace him
Seriosuly, read letter 246. https://web.archive.org/web/20170202081450/https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/the_letters_of_j.rrtolkien.pdf
>It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron
was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the
destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.
No it makes you evil dumbfricktard. Galadriel says if she took the ring they’d win against Sauron but she herself would become the next dark lord. This is explicitly stated. The ring only makes weaklings pawns to Sauron, strong people it corrupts into evil people
No. It corrupts and ultimately twists your will. Just look at what Sauron did to Numenor. Now imagine having a little Sauron whispering directly into your soul. Eventually you give in and you become a pawn. Galadriel with the ring would make Sauron shit himself, but he'd still have the last say in the very, very long game, which is what Sauron plays.
>Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great). >[The draft ends here. In the margin Tolkien wrote: 'Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left "good" clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.']
Straight from Tolkien's pen. While the Ring corrupts even the best will, it is distinct form Sauron, and can happen even if Sauron is destroyed with the Ring's power.
No. It corrupts and ultimately twists your will. Just look at what Sauron did to Numenor. Now imagine having a little Sauron whispering directly into your soul. Eventually you give in and you become a pawn. Galadriel with the ring would make Sauron shit himself, but he'd still have the last say in the very, very long game, which is what Sauron plays.
>Galadriel says if she took the ring they’d win against Sauron but she herself would become the next dark lord. This is explicitly stated.
Yeah... by her. We have no reason to believe she's correct. Everything indicates that when the ring offers people power or joy it is fricking lying to them to trick them into allowing it to break their soul. Isildur was a strong man, and it broke him almost immediately. It also did not grant him the power to rule the world. This is because the ring does not actually give a frick about you and will frick you over at the first opportunity to find someone more likely to bring it to its master.
>We have no reason to believe she's correct.
Well, other than all the times that Gandalf says that Sauron believes that they're taking the Ring to Minas Tirith to use it against him in war because that's what he'd do in their place, and that victory in arms against Mordor can only be assured through using the power of the Ring.
>Isildur was a strong man, and it broke him almost immediately.
Isildur had the Ring for years before it slipped off his finger. And he never went full evil with it, he just wanted to keep possessing it, which is ultimately gollum-tier effect.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Well, other than all the times that Gandalf says that Sauron believes that they're taking the Ring to Minas Tirith to use it against him in war because that's what he'd do in their place,
But that's the whole point of the ring. It's designed to frick over people specifically when they act as he would anticipate, when they act like him. That anyone would even consider destroying the ring was shocking and unanticipated to him. He believed that, even if people knew what it was, they would choose to try to wield it as a weapon rather than unmake it. That nobody would be willing to give up their dreams for the sake of the world. And this fundamental misunderstanding lead to his destruction. But that's completely different from the idea that someone could have used the ring against him and that actually working. >Isildur had the Ring for years before it slipped off his finger.
The fact that he was strolling out of Mordor with the ring is proof he was already corrupted. He knew what it was, and knew how to destroy it, and had no good reason to think that he should keep it. But he was compelled to, out of a misguided belief that it could grant him and his lineage power and prosperity. But of course it lead only to his death, for the ring only serves one master.
2 years ago
Anonymous
But it also has real power, real power that actually was used to destroy it and Sauron by extension. Gollum falls into the lava because Frodo uses the Ring's power to curse him. We literally have a statement by the author that in the right hands, the Ring could have been used to destroy Sauron. The emotional crux of the story is attempting to do the right, difficult thing when a short term solution is literally in your hand.
> But that's completely different from the idea that someone could have used the ring against him and that actually working.
For like the 4th time in this thread. Read. Letter. 246.
>The fact that he was strolling out of Mordor with the ring is proof he was already corrupted.
No, and in fact the idea that Sauron would come back if the Ring wasn't destroyed is not something Team Good knew at the time. Even when the Necromancer made his first appearance, Galadriel and Gandalf thought it was the Witch-King stepping up into the mantle of the big bad, much like Sauron had done after Morgoth's defeat. He had every reason to think he should keep it, that they had won forever and why not keep a trophy.
And again, Letter 246 (as well as the core trilogy) indicate that the Ring can in fact be used against Sauron.
This is such a stale take, Sam didn't resist anything he held onto the ring for mere moments, Frodo spent years having his spirit poisoned. It's meant to rot you from within, he becomes the way he is because that's essentially the price he paid, Sam's based for having his back but Frodo's the guy with the cancer at the end of the day
>Sam didn't resist anything he held onto the ring for mere moments
He was in physical proximity to Frodo for a couple of months, alone in the wilderness, and knew the ring existed, yet at no point tried to take it for himself. Boromir found out about the ring at a meeting and was already being obviously tempted by it over the course of the meeting.
>The Ring would give me power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner!' Boromir strode up and down, speaking ever more loudly: Almost he seemed to have forgotten Frodo, while his talk dwelt on walls and weapons, and the mustering of men; and he drew plans for great alliances and glorious victories to be; and he cast down Mordor, and became himself a mighty king, benevolent and wise. Suddenly he stopped and waved his arms.
In the books, you can tell someone is being tempted by the ring when they start going on entirely unprompted rants about all the shit they would do with the ring in hand (Galadriel does the same thing). Meanwhile, Sam knew the ring existed, was alone in the wilderness for an extended period of time with Frodo, and never tried to stab the c**t. I believe the heart of the hobbits' ability to resist the ring is their complete and total lack of ambition. Sam has no imagination, a small brain, and the only thing he wants is a tidy garden and a bunch of kids, none of which are things that a magic ring would help him with.
>Sam didn't resist anything he held onto the ring for mere moments
He was in physical proximity to Frodo for a couple of months, alone in the wilderness, and knew the ring existed, yet at no point tried to take it for himself. Boromir found out about the ring at a meeting and was already being obviously tempted by it over the course of the meeting.
>The Ring would give me power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner!' Boromir strode up and down, speaking ever more loudly: Almost he seemed to have forgotten Frodo, while his talk dwelt on walls and weapons, and the mustering of men; and he drew plans for great alliances and glorious victories to be; and he cast down Mordor, and became himself a mighty king, benevolent and wise. Suddenly he stopped and waved his arms.
In the books, you can tell someone is being tempted by the ring when they start going on entirely unprompted rants about all the shit they would do with the ring in hand (Galadriel does the same thing). Meanwhile, Sam knew the ring existed, was alone in the wilderness for an extended period of time with Frodo, and never tried to stab the c**t. I believe the heart of the hobbits' ability to resist the ring is their complete and total lack of ambition. Sam has no imagination, a small brain, and the only thing he wants is a tidy garden and a bunch of kids, none of which are things that a magic ring would help him with.
If you actually read the books, you would know that when Sam had the ring in his possession, which was only for a few hours, it took a hold of him and filled him with unbidden desires that he was only able to resist due to the short time he had the ring and the fact that he knew that things the ring offered him were impossible if he did not destroy it. Regardless, if he had held the ring much longer than he did, he would have undoubtedly broken eventually. Nobody in the world could willingly destroy it.
Sam was literally being filled with unrestrained desires and could only hold out as long as he did because he knew what the ring was offering him were impossibilities. Even then, anything more than the few hours he held it for and he'd probably be gone.
Sam is literally already the Tolkien-stated primary hero of the Lord of the Rings.
That's why the story ends with him returning home to Rosie, not with Frodo and Bilbo sailing to the west.
The Vampire Counts are arrogant, dissolute, and prone to infighting. If Sauron could corrupt and control Númenor, the VC would be a cakewalk. He would have them totally at his mercy without striking a blow.
(if it HAD to be open combat? Assuming a benchmark of WFB High Elves = Second Age Noldor, it would probably depend on whether he had the Ring. If he did, he'd win. If he didn't—i.e., if he was at the level he was during the War of the Ring—he'd probably lose, given how much stronger the VC are than anyone else in the Third Age. But either way, I don't think it would be a curbstomp or anything.)
>it would probably depend on whether he had the Ring. If he did, he'd win
Why does his powerlevel change so drastic if he wins? I mean he has been beaten once in an army battle espite having it and that was by a mere mortal
>I mean he has been beaten once in an army battle espite having it and that was by a mere mortal
That's why it wouldn't be eay for him. But keep in mind just how strong the army that beat him was: for instance, Gil-galad was on the same level as elves who we know defeated balrogs (so, bloodthirsters) on their own.
>bloodthirsters
I'd believe a balrog is stronger than a bloodthirster. Remember, a balrog is a fallen maiar, which is what Sauron was too. Hell that's what the Wizards are, minus their own nerf of being old men. Balrogs never got nerfed, nor did they power themselves up by imparting their powers to a ring to then wear like Sauron did, but they still never lost what power they did have.
>When Morgoth left Angband much later to corrupt the newly awakened Atani (Men), Sauron directed the war against the Elves.[5] He conquered the Elvish isle of Tol Sirion, so that it became known as Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves.[6] He was the Lord of the Werewolves there, and Draugluin was the sire of the Werewolves. Sauron's herald was the vampire Thuringwethil.
It's over. Sauron is both Team Jacob and Team Edward. The Vampire c**ts have no chance.
The more power Sauron poured into rings and controlling others the less "potent" he was himself. All his power was still there but it was now diluded between the rings, his spirit and what else. Basically Sauron's upkeep costs got higher. That being said, Sauron by no means lost the against the Last Alliance of Elf and Men. Though his armies were destroyed and his body as well, losing the ring and so on, it led to the decline of the last Noldor kingdom in Middle-Earth as well as the decline of Numenorians. And as
Unless the writer is a moron, Sauron wins by default. No corrupt or evil being can ever hope to defeat him. Even fricking Frodo Baggins, the goodest and most innocent of lads, ends up claiming the ring for his own and it takes a literal Deus ex machina to cast the ring into the fire. Even Boromir, a noble and loyal dude tries to take the ring from Frodo at some point with catastrophic consequences. Shit is fricked. And that if and only if Sauron does not get his ring back.
Vamp Counts Vs the witch king would be a better match.
said it took a literal direct divine intervention to stop him, no mortal could have done it and given enought time he would have conquered Middle-Earth with or without the Ring.
Sauron is a force of Order. Even discarding the fact that he is a God, he would be allied with other Order factions like the Empire of Sigmar and Dorfs and have their tech. Vc**ts are fricked.
Army v Army battle? Vampire counts stomp hilariously with little contest
However saurons greatest strength is his magic and corruption, in a straight fist fight vlad could probably hold his own but sauron is cunning and smart, nagash might take him though (MIGHT)
There are no accounts of Sauron doing what we would refer to as necromancy and it's more likely that Tolkien meant it in the same sense that John Faustus was a necromancer - a man who speaks with the spirits of the dead.
Sauron's main power outside of his Will was his shapeshifting, as when he took on a werewolf form to fight Huan and when he took on a sexy form to subvert Ar-Pharazon. He's never portrayed as a DnD style Necromancer.
>The wraiths
Are alive. They're just extremely stretched like Gollum or Bilbo.
>Longevity or counterfeit ‘immortality’ (true immortality is beyond Eä) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith.
The wraiths aren't dead, like those two anons mentioned. They're simply like Gollum; so old and corrupted that they're entirely different from whatever they had once been.
I'm not sure if Sauron was involved, but at the very least his lieutenant in the form of the Witch-King raised the Barrow-wights, who definitely seem to be moving dead bodies with some link to memories of long dead people. (Consider how Merry has a momentary recall of the men of Carn Dum attacking Cardolan, which was like a thousand years before his birth)
And even if that was all the WK's show, I'm sure Sauron could have pulled the dead spirits up if the ringwraith can.
>So why did he never do that? Would have been pretty handy.
Handy for what exactly? It's not like he doesn't have legions of other servants. What does cramming dead souls into other, possibly different dead bodies get him that another column of orcs or men don't?
Plus, while it's less explicit, I'm not sure that the things like the silent watcher at Cirith Ungol or those fell lights in Minas Morgul don't have anything to do with dead spirits.
The dead marshes. But he already had legions of orcs, trolls, and men, what're some incorporeal boys gonna do in an active military engagement?
The dead men of Dunharrow for example didn't kill anyone, they lacked a body, they just made the host of the Haradrim flee in terror.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>what're some incorporeal boys gonna do in an active military engagement? >some incorporeal boys
you mean like the nazgul?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Who're not ghosts since they are capable of still stabbing people.
They're technically still alive, but so diminished and reliant on Sauron's will that they don't have visible bodies. Because they still have bodies those cloaks and armor go on.
2 years ago
Anonymous
The cloaks don't just make them visible (in fact they would be actively detrimental if that was all they did). The cloaks allowed them to interact with the physical world. When they were swept away by the flood at the Ford of Bruinen they lost their cloaks and horses and thus had to flee back to Mordor, "empty and shapeless" - they had no way to interact with the physical world.
Sauron's armies get beaten and scattered, his fortresses destroyed and his realm broken. Sauron is then captured and brought back in chains to the throne of his enemy where he manages to bargain for his life in excahnge for service.
Sauron is running the show within a few centuries, nobody is sure when exactly he took control.
It's not a matter of magical might, Sauron has absolutly mad charisma and as an immortal fallen angel thing that's almost as old as the world he can be very patient. You combine this with his love of fine detail and drive towards perfectionism (due to a shared heritige with the dwarves) and you have the most slimy politiciain/used care salesman it's possible to have.
Any magic he can do on top of that's just a side show. Nagash might still be the one sitting on the throne but there'll always be this pretty and slightly elvish looking advisor standing just behind him.
>a large, orderly realm with vast standing armies, supply, and faith in their god-king led by an immortal angel that literally controls most of the world
Or >ghouls n shit
The latter, because Warhammer is cancer and its fanboys will just do some bullshit "actually this one guy can cast this one spell so I win" argument.
Of course, vampires in LoTR are evil spirits taking the form of (giant) bats, not really the classic blood drinking person of the night sort of vampire we see inspired by Bram Stoker. Don't know if it really applies.
>who would win, the faction that got its shit kicked in by ancient Egypt, by goblinoids, and repeatedly gets wrecked by Germans even after hundreds of years of debilitating civil war >or literally half the damn planet
Power creep in Warhammer means that everyone in it is fricking ridiculous, LotR its too grounded to even stand a chance with anything from it. VC runs away with it confidently, Sauron is not a strong fighter, hes the number one enemy because of his corrupting influence and ambition to destroy, the ring is not Sauron it is only amplifying those ambitions, hes not immortal or invincible, hes basically the equivelent of a grail knight, down to not actually having any offensive magic, but their mere presence affects those around them.
Depends on the writer
Unless the writer is a moron, Sauron wins by default. No corrupt or evil being can ever hope to defeat him. Even fricking Frodo Baggins, the goodest and most innocent of lads, ends up claiming the ring for his own and it takes a literal Deus ex machina to cast the ring into the fire. Even Boromir, a noble and loyal dude tries to take the ring from Frodo at some point with catastrophic consequences. Shit is fricked. And that if and only if Sauron does not get his ring back.
Vamp Counts Vs the witch king would be a better match.
So what? If Carstein uses the ring to fight Sauron. The one ring might turn him evil and corrupted (which he already is anyway) but it does not automatically make him saurons slave. Also considering the air force of the VC it does not look good for Mordors mostly ground based army imo. Also Fellbeasts would be absolutely torn apart by Varghulfs, Terrorgheists and Zombie Dragons. The necromancers of the vampire Counts could take advantage of Sauron's beat them by numbers strategy and awaken hordes of fallen orcs to use against their former master.
Carstein could use the ring to defeat Sauron, but as long as it exists Sauron doesn't die. Carstein could destroy it after defeating Sauron but being an evil being means he's already screwed in terms of resisting it. In the end Sauron returns and takes the ring was a Carstein that has lost all independent will.
Incorrect. JRR tolkien letter 246 contradicts this; a sufficiently powerful figure (in this set of speculation from the author, Gandalf) using the Ring to destroy Sauron would "kill" him every bit as effectively as destroying the Ring would.
Yes. The problem with Gandalf taking the ring isn't that Sauron would somehow manage to win by subverting him - Sauron would be fricking dead. The problem is that Gandalf would in Tallkin's estimation become an even worse Lord than Sauron due to his tyranny clothing itself in righteousness.
The ring does not turn you evil you dumb frick. The ring makes you the ring's b***h. Isildur wanted to preserve the ring in his lineage so that no harm would come to it. The ring has a will of its own and that will is that of Sauron. To use it is to insta-lose because as long as the ring exists so will Sauron. A year, a hundred... it does not matter because eventually you will end up enslaved by it. Sauron also used werewolves and vampires, which are pretty fricking strong in LotR.
>As long as the ring exists so will Sauron.
not necessarily in phisical form though and being reduced to a ghost without any importance sounds like losing to me.
>The ring makes you the ring's b***h
No it only does that with hobbits or other peasants if you are powerful enough it increases your powers. Had gandalf for example taken the ring to fight against sauron he would have won but his reign would have been arguably worse than saurons since he'd basically replace him
Being bodyless doesn't meant you can't frick with the world. It just makes it more inconvenient
And the ring still can't be mastered by anyone other than Sauron. Gandalf may have become powerful, but Sauron would still have the last laugh
>Gandalf may have become powerful, but Sauron would still have the last laugh
citation needed
No one dominates the ring, Gandalf literally says so himself. And the ring is Sauron
>And the ring is Sauron
No the ring is a powerful artifact that is engulfed in a part of saurons soul. Big difference
Seriosuly, read letter 246. https://web.archive.org/web/20170202081450/https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/the_letters_of_j.rrtolkien.pdf
>It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron
was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the
destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.
No it makes you evil dumbfricktard. Galadriel says if she took the ring they’d win against Sauron but she herself would become the next dark lord. This is explicitly stated. The ring only makes weaklings pawns to Sauron, strong people it corrupts into evil people
No. It corrupts and ultimately twists your will. Just look at what Sauron did to Numenor. Now imagine having a little Sauron whispering directly into your soul. Eventually you give in and you become a pawn. Galadriel with the ring would make Sauron shit himself, but he'd still have the last say in the very, very long game, which is what Sauron plays.
>Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).
>[The draft ends here. In the margin Tolkien wrote: 'Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left "good" clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.']
Straight from Tolkien's pen. While the Ring corrupts even the best will, it is distinct form Sauron, and can happen even if Sauron is destroyed with the Ring's power.
right
wrong
>Galadriel says if she took the ring they’d win against Sauron but she herself would become the next dark lord. This is explicitly stated.
Yeah... by her. We have no reason to believe she's correct. Everything indicates that when the ring offers people power or joy it is fricking lying to them to trick them into allowing it to break their soul. Isildur was a strong man, and it broke him almost immediately. It also did not grant him the power to rule the world. This is because the ring does not actually give a frick about you and will frick you over at the first opportunity to find someone more likely to bring it to its master.
>We have no reason to believe she's correct.
Well, other than all the times that Gandalf says that Sauron believes that they're taking the Ring to Minas Tirith to use it against him in war because that's what he'd do in their place, and that victory in arms against Mordor can only be assured through using the power of the Ring.
>Isildur was a strong man, and it broke him almost immediately.
Isildur had the Ring for years before it slipped off his finger. And he never went full evil with it, he just wanted to keep possessing it, which is ultimately gollum-tier effect.
>Well, other than all the times that Gandalf says that Sauron believes that they're taking the Ring to Minas Tirith to use it against him in war because that's what he'd do in their place,
But that's the whole point of the ring. It's designed to frick over people specifically when they act as he would anticipate, when they act like him. That anyone would even consider destroying the ring was shocking and unanticipated to him. He believed that, even if people knew what it was, they would choose to try to wield it as a weapon rather than unmake it. That nobody would be willing to give up their dreams for the sake of the world. And this fundamental misunderstanding lead to his destruction. But that's completely different from the idea that someone could have used the ring against him and that actually working.
>Isildur had the Ring for years before it slipped off his finger.
The fact that he was strolling out of Mordor with the ring is proof he was already corrupted. He knew what it was, and knew how to destroy it, and had no good reason to think that he should keep it. But he was compelled to, out of a misguided belief that it could grant him and his lineage power and prosperity. But of course it lead only to his death, for the ring only serves one master.
But it also has real power, real power that actually was used to destroy it and Sauron by extension. Gollum falls into the lava because Frodo uses the Ring's power to curse him. We literally have a statement by the author that in the right hands, the Ring could have been used to destroy Sauron. The emotional crux of the story is attempting to do the right, difficult thing when a short term solution is literally in your hand.
> But that's completely different from the idea that someone could have used the ring against him and that actually working.
For like the 4th time in this thread. Read. Letter. 246.
>The fact that he was strolling out of Mordor with the ring is proof he was already corrupted.
No, and in fact the idea that Sauron would come back if the Ring wasn't destroyed is not something Team Good knew at the time. Even when the Necromancer made his first appearance, Galadriel and Gandalf thought it was the Witch-King stepping up into the mantle of the big bad, much like Sauron had done after Morgoth's defeat. He had every reason to think he should keep it, that they had won forever and why not keep a trophy.
And again, Letter 246 (as well as the core trilogy) indicate that the Ring can in fact be used against Sauron.
It's kind of redundant, as "evil" in LOTR is mostly synonymous with "under the will of Sauron/Melkor". The dude is the root of evil as a whole
>The dude is the root of evil as a whole
Umm no. In the bigger picture he's fairly irrelevant. The root of all evil would be Morgoth/Melkor
But Sam resisted the ring.
The real lesson here is that Frodo is a huge homosexual and Sam is better protagonist material
This is such a stale take, Sam didn't resist anything he held onto the ring for mere moments, Frodo spent years having his spirit poisoned. It's meant to rot you from within, he becomes the way he is because that's essentially the price he paid, Sam's based for having his back but Frodo's the guy with the cancer at the end of the day
>Sam didn't resist anything he held onto the ring for mere moments
He was in physical proximity to Frodo for a couple of months, alone in the wilderness, and knew the ring existed, yet at no point tried to take it for himself. Boromir found out about the ring at a meeting and was already being obviously tempted by it over the course of the meeting.
>The Ring would give me power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner!' Boromir strode up and down, speaking ever more loudly: Almost he seemed to have forgotten Frodo, while his talk dwelt on walls and weapons, and the mustering of men; and he drew plans for great alliances and glorious victories to be; and he cast down Mordor, and became himself a mighty king, benevolent and wise. Suddenly he stopped and waved his arms.
In the books, you can tell someone is being tempted by the ring when they start going on entirely unprompted rants about all the shit they would do with the ring in hand (Galadriel does the same thing). Meanwhile, Sam knew the ring existed, was alone in the wilderness for an extended period of time with Frodo, and never tried to stab the c**t. I believe the heart of the hobbits' ability to resist the ring is their complete and total lack of ambition. Sam has no imagination, a small brain, and the only thing he wants is a tidy garden and a bunch of kids, none of which are things that a magic ring would help him with.
Don't forget he also got wounded by a Morgul blade
If you actually read the books, you would know that when Sam had the ring in his possession, which was only for a few hours, it took a hold of him and filled him with unbidden desires that he was only able to resist due to the short time he had the ring and the fact that he knew that things the ring offered him were impossible if he did not destroy it. Regardless, if he had held the ring much longer than he did, he would have undoubtedly broken eventually. Nobody in the world could willingly destroy it.
Sam was literally being filled with unrestrained desires and could only hold out as long as he did because he knew what the ring was offering him were impossibilities. Even then, anything more than the few hours he held it for and he'd probably be gone.
Sam is literally already the Tolkien-stated primary hero of the Lord of the Rings.
That's why the story ends with him returning home to Rosie, not with Frodo and Bilbo sailing to the west.
Sauron would curbstomp and it isn't even comperable. Maybe AoS Nagash stands a chance but wfb VC are way too weak
The Vampire Counts are arrogant, dissolute, and prone to infighting. If Sauron could corrupt and control Númenor, the VC would be a cakewalk. He would have them totally at his mercy without striking a blow.
(if it HAD to be open combat? Assuming a benchmark of WFB High Elves = Second Age Noldor, it would probably depend on whether he had the Ring. If he did, he'd win. If he didn't—i.e., if he was at the level he was during the War of the Ring—he'd probably lose, given how much stronger the VC are than anyone else in the Third Age. But either way, I don't think it would be a curbstomp or anything.)
>it would probably depend on whether he had the Ring. If he did, he'd win
Why does his powerlevel change so drastic if he wins? I mean he has been beaten once in an army battle espite having it and that was by a mere mortal
>if he wins
meant to write "has the ring"
>I mean he has been beaten once in an army battle espite having it and that was by a mere mortal
That's why it wouldn't be eay for him. But keep in mind just how strong the army that beat him was: for instance, Gil-galad was on the same level as elves who we know defeated balrogs (so, bloodthirsters) on their own.
>bloodthirsters
I'd believe a balrog is stronger than a bloodthirster. Remember, a balrog is a fallen maiar, which is what Sauron was too. Hell that's what the Wizards are, minus their own nerf of being old men. Balrogs never got nerfed, nor did they power themselves up by imparting their powers to a ring to then wear like Sauron did, but they still never lost what power they did have.
>When Morgoth left Angband much later to corrupt the newly awakened Atani (Men), Sauron directed the war against the Elves.[5] He conquered the Elvish isle of Tol Sirion, so that it became known as Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves.[6] He was the Lord of the Werewolves there, and Draugluin was the sire of the Werewolves. Sauron's herald was the vampire Thuringwethil.
It's over. Sauron is both Team Jacob and Team Edward. The Vampire c**ts have no chance.
The more power Sauron poured into rings and controlling others the less "potent" he was himself. All his power was still there but it was now diluded between the rings, his spirit and what else. Basically Sauron's upkeep costs got higher. That being said, Sauron by no means lost the against the Last Alliance of Elf and Men. Though his armies were destroyed and his body as well, losing the ring and so on, it led to the decline of the last Noldor kingdom in Middle-Earth as well as the decline of Numenorians. And as
said it took a literal direct divine intervention to stop him, no mortal could have done it and given enought time he would have conquered Middle-Earth with or without the Ring.
Sauron is a force of Order. Even discarding the fact that he is a God, he would be allied with other Order factions like the Empire of Sigmar and Dorfs and have their tech. Vc**ts are fricked.
>he would be allied with other Order factions like the Empire of Sigmar and Dorfs
yeah no, that's just cheating
Army v Army battle? Vampire counts stomp hilariously with little contest
However saurons greatest strength is his magic and corruption, in a straight fist fight vlad could probably hold his own but sauron is cunning and smart, nagash might take him though (MIGHT)
One of those big armored troll guys from Return of the King would plow through legions of basic b***h undead.
and as soon as he's dead he'd plow through legions of basic b***h orcs
Well yeah? But Varghulf, vargheists, vampires, any spirit undead, crypt horrors etc... would take them down
Thats like me arguing the heaviest hitting unit on VC could beat basic orcs... no shit
>Army v Army battle? Vampire counts stomp hilariously with little contest
Are you forgetting Sauron is a Necromancer on top of everything else? He would just take the army and add it to his own
There are no accounts of Sauron doing what we would refer to as necromancy and it's more likely that Tolkien meant it in the same sense that John Faustus was a necromancer - a man who speaks with the spirits of the dead.
Sauron's main power outside of his Will was his shapeshifting, as when he took on a werewolf form to fight Huan and when he took on a sexy form to subvert Ar-Pharazon. He's never portrayed as a DnD style Necromancer.
>There are no accounts of Sauron doing what we would refer to as necromancy
The wraiths
>The wraiths
Are alive. They're just extremely stretched like Gollum or Bilbo.
>Longevity or counterfeit ‘immortality’ (true immortality is beyond Eä) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith.
The wraiths never actually died
They were corrupted
Wasn't the necromancer refrenced in the Hobbit books revealed to be hiding Sauron in the movies?
The wraiths aren't dead, like those two anons mentioned. They're simply like Gollum; so old and corrupted that they're entirely different from whatever they had once been.
I'm not sure if Sauron was involved, but at the very least his lieutenant in the form of the Witch-King raised the Barrow-wights, who definitely seem to be moving dead bodies with some link to memories of long dead people. (Consider how Merry has a momentary recall of the men of Carn Dum attacking Cardolan, which was like a thousand years before his birth)
And even if that was all the WK's show, I'm sure Sauron could have pulled the dead spirits up if the ringwraith can.
>I'm sure Sauron could have pulled the dead spirits up if the ringwraith can.
So why did he never do that? Would have been pretty handy.
>So why did he never do that? Would have been pretty handy.
Handy for what exactly? It's not like he doesn't have legions of other servants. What does cramming dead souls into other, possibly different dead bodies get him that another column of orcs or men don't?
Plus, while it's less explicit, I'm not sure that the things like the silent watcher at Cirith Ungol or those fell lights in Minas Morgul don't have anything to do with dead spirits.
The dead marshes. But he already had legions of orcs, trolls, and men, what're some incorporeal boys gonna do in an active military engagement?
The dead men of Dunharrow for example didn't kill anyone, they lacked a body, they just made the host of the Haradrim flee in terror.
>what're some incorporeal boys gonna do in an active military engagement?
>some incorporeal boys
you mean like the nazgul?
Who're not ghosts since they are capable of still stabbing people.
They're technically still alive, but so diminished and reliant on Sauron's will that they don't have visible bodies. Because they still have bodies those cloaks and armor go on.
The cloaks don't just make them visible (in fact they would be actively detrimental if that was all they did). The cloaks allowed them to interact with the physical world. When they were swept away by the flood at the Ford of Bruinen they lost their cloaks and horses and thus had to flee back to Mordor, "empty and shapeless" - they had no way to interact with the physical world.
Sauron's armies get beaten and scattered, his fortresses destroyed and his realm broken. Sauron is then captured and brought back in chains to the throne of his enemy where he manages to bargain for his life in excahnge for service.
Sauron is running the show within a few centuries, nobody is sure when exactly he took control.
This is probably the most likely outcome, only Nagash himself could maybe "out magic" sauron
It's not a matter of magical might, Sauron has absolutly mad charisma and as an immortal fallen angel thing that's almost as old as the world he can be very patient. You combine this with his love of fine detail and drive towards perfectionism (due to a shared heritige with the dwarves) and you have the most slimy politiciain/used care salesman it's possible to have.
Any magic he can do on top of that's just a side show. Nagash might still be the one sitting on the throne but there'll always be this pretty and slightly elvish looking advisor standing just behind him.
>almost as old as the world
Older than world
seconded
>a large, orderly realm with vast standing armies, supply, and faith in their god-king led by an immortal angel that literally controls most of the world
Or
>ghouls n shit
The latter, because Warhammer is cancer and its fanboys will just do some bullshit "actually this one guy can cast this one spell so I win" argument.
>The latter
correct answer
Sauron literally created vampires in LOTR so they may have a compulsion to serve him.
Of course, vampires in LoTR are evil spirits taking the form of (giant) bats, not really the classic blood drinking person of the night sort of vampire we see inspired by Bram Stoker. Don't know if it really applies.
Everytime Counts in large amounts
I would win
Grimgor would mog Sauron
>who would win, the faction that got its shit kicked in by ancient Egypt, by goblinoids, and repeatedly gets wrecked by Germans even after hundreds of years of debilitating civil war
>or literally half the damn planet
Power creep in Warhammer means that everyone in it is fricking ridiculous, LotR its too grounded to even stand a chance with anything from it. VC runs away with it confidently, Sauron is not a strong fighter, hes the number one enemy because of his corrupting influence and ambition to destroy, the ring is not Sauron it is only amplifying those ambitions, hes not immortal or invincible, hes basically the equivelent of a grail knight, down to not actually having any offensive magic, but their mere presence affects those around them.