Why are there just 3 roles in mmos?
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Why are there just 3 roles in mmos?
Why are there just 3 roles in mmos?
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I feel like there should be a 4th that's dedicated to buffing the party and debuffing the enemy.
All buffs should be aoe.. or else we have a wow classic paladin buffshit thing, which sucks shit.
>or else we have a wow classic paladin buffshit thing, which sucks shit.
look at this clown. this is a modern gamer. cannot comprehend anything other than what he has experienced.
hey anon, here's a neat concept: you don' get classic paladin buffs because you have a x amount of people you can have buffed at any one time and/or your buffs are short duration, like 15-30sec, and have to be timed correctly because this is THE ENTIRE GAMEPLAY of your role as an enchanter archetype. it is not "oh i'll buff everyone with 30-60 min buffs then i can afk or deal dps"
>buffs
>timed correctly
lol lmao
You aren't smart enough to dps. Get back on your knees and suck my dick. Its the only thing you're good for.
You can't think ahead and are projecting your moronness onto me.
I was thinking of a low damage, short buff duration class, that AoE buffs when dealing damage or channeling some shit, or debuffs the enemy which might give ressources when being attacked.
Like a bard.
But how about this: have a nice day. It'll remove the debuff of -100 sanity off everyone around you.
>All buffs should be aoe
WoW just added a spec to the newest class that does that and a lot of people don't understand that means its own damage is pitifully low
You have to design around morons
I guess what he
said is the right way to do it, just make it mostly aoe. maybe have a build that would focus more on single target for extra damage and utility overall at the cost of being harder to use to appeal to the tryhards.
This isn't an issue with people being moronic. Having a class that can only buff people and can't do much themselves just isn't fun to play. It's bad design.
Imagine a hypothetical class where your job was to stand still and literally do nothing at all, but this gave your whole party a strong buff and was therefore the mechanically strongest class in the game. Putting aside that in this hypothetical that people would just multibox a class like that, it would obviously be an unfun class to play. How effective a class is has very little to do with how fun it is, and being strong doesn't make a class a good addition to a game. A pure buffer class is simply a bad idea for a multiplayer game. People barely are able to have fun with a healer, after all, and that's a much more dynamic class concept.
People that aren't morons love Augvoker
so just like healers before they became dps lite
The role is fine but WoW appeals to the worst of the worst autismo players who like damage meters and combat analyzers.
what a tremendously fricking dumb post. plenty of games have created buffing classes and they are often the most active in raids/encounters. Modern mmos are just dumbed down and convince people that you have to stick strictly to the unholy trinity
>nooo you can only stand there and do nothing because that's all I can comprehend with my moron brain, video game cannot have different design it MUST be like modern gamers desire
Get out of the hobby already.
>Imagine a hypothetical class
Stopped reading right there. Why are you asking me to imagine a hypothetical video game class when we're discussing an actual, non-hypothetical video game class? Is it possibly because you want to attribute a bunch of boring dogshit to your imaginary class and then claim the real class is the same thing? Probably, but I won't ever know, because I did not read your post beyond this point.
Do NOT respond to me.
>Putting aside that in this hypothetical that people would just multibox a class like that
This literally happened in both RO and Tree of Savior lol, it’s very obvious why games decided to move buffs/debuffs to different classes
In the case of RO, everyone now has AOE damage or buffs and the game is basically a mob killing solo game. Buy the lootbox p2w items, rng upgrade (with prevent failure certificates that is purchased), and now everyone can do millions of damage.
>Imagine a hypothetical class where your job was to stand still and literally do nothing at all, but this gave your whole party a strong buff and was therefore the mechanically strongest class in the game.
this exists in path of exile. it's called an "aurabot" build and they're mandatory for the best farming strats
I personally love playing support roles. For me pure DPS always feel lacking, because you solely focus on the enemies. Helping out your team in some way while also being able to deal some damage feels a lot more fulfilling in my opinion. That's why I loved playing Shaman in WoW before they gutted the class' support capabilities because some morons complained that it's annoying to put out some totems.
If there were more Bard support classes I'd be totally maining one but RPGs mostly cater to the main 3 archetypes. Support should always be the 4th.
>Having a class that can only buff people and can't do much themselves just isn't fun to play. It's bad design.
I'd love to play that class. I do the least, and I get the most. As in, all I have to do is put a buff on someone that automatically makes them more competitive than someone who doesn't have the buff, and then watch the dungeons/raids/instances get won for me. Sounds like the absolute most chad role to have.
FF14 has the same exact thing in the form of the Dancer. WoWtrannies are uniquely extra stupid in the MMO scene.
They're preferred for m+ right now. People get passed over for them.
this guy doesn't play the game i did aberrus HC two days ago there was like 5 aug evoker
Most MMO players are functionally morons. MMO players with addons to take the brainwork out are even dumber.
Is it too hard to add a feature to the UI that shows how much your buff is increasing their raw DPS? Surely it's a very simple calculation.
considering there's no damage meter in the game (without addons), yes it's probably too hard for WoW devs to do
>AOE
That's boring as shit and would make the class play like all the others, just pressing buttons at the right time. Why not introduce actual gameplay into the skills? Make the player beat a rhythm game to cast his spell.
>Make the player beat a rhythm game to cast his spell.
that could actually be really fun. still needs to be aoe though. would be too punishing and stressful if that was combined with single target
I think that's the feeling they were trying to go for with Dancer in ff14 but you can just buffer any input in that game so you didn't actually need timing.
Part of the reason I'm doing IT is because my dream game has rhythm elements. Cast a spell and hit things in an order. You could have enemies make a loud noise that silences out the tune so you have to keep your internal rhythm consistent. Slow someone down or speed them up. Make the rhythm erratic. If there's multiple rhythm buttons for a complex spell, have enemies do something to switch them around. Have the enemy counterchant, putting addition difficulty in a spell.
I always imagined a high-level player could cast their own spells, while moving, and also counterchanting the opponent. One hand for your own spells + movement and the other hand for counterchanting.
Monhun did that already
The whole format is anemic and really is just a vestigial remnant from WoW's design and whatever may have predated it.
MonHun is debatably 'easier' than many MMO encounters (since they're just boring long-ass Simon Says scripts), but it really comes off to me as the natural evolution for online RPGs, or MMOs.
And it's a proven failure since it's been the least played weapon in every game since it's introduction.
MMO basics are designed around shitty internet and those designs are kept despite technological advances tbh
it's not just shitty internet, mmos are designed to be played for long hours, having too much action makes it tiring
thats something all three roles can do though.
yeah because they sprinkle buff/debuff skills across all the roles instead of just having one dedicated role for it instead it would actually balance the game a lot better to do this tbh.
not in a good game
>tank get "Party Defense UP"
>dps get "Party Attack UP"
>heal get "Enemy Defense DOWN"
done
what about enemy defense UP?
"Defense down" is the best you can come up with for debuffer? sounds like a you problem if that's the best your imagination can come up with.
People still play Kanna in Maplestory, and her damage got nerfed to one of the lowest in the game and she can barely perform outside of boss parties without obscene funding, all she does is give massive party buffs.
I mean, fundamentally any debuff will be some variation of "kill thing faster, it kill us slower". You could throw something in to make the rewards better too, like a debuffer having a finishing strike move that if it kills an enemy they drop extra loot, but thats getting into even deeper territory of mandatory.
Now sure, your debuff could be something like "when this enemy gets hit, this debuff loses a charge and explodes, dealing damage to this enemy and all enemies in ten yards" or something fancier than just "enemy takes more damage" but that is what it will math out to.
There really arent any other substantive options. You can add 50 debuffs that people wouldn't actually use for fluff, but thats not a class design, that is what Ganker calls "forced SOUL".
Ok then with this logic we can just remove DPS and give DPS to tanks and heals
And then remove heals and give tanks healing ability
yeah I remember full parties of dks and paladins in wrath
I mean, this is actually why enrage timers exist in most MMOs now. Because you can otherwise just brute force down pretty much any fight with just the best self sustain tanks if you had infinite time. DPS basically just exist to hit an enrage timer.
Homogenization and casualization as things were streamlined into the soulless skinner box raid treadmill with have today.
It used to exist, it was a very fun role.
buffer/debuffer/CCer as a role is just multiple none HP-interacting gimmicks rolled into a redundant role. Those things should be distributed to the trinity.
Why? To make things even more boring and kill even more build diversity? While we're at it, lets take the RPG out of MMORPG.
>To make things even more boring and kill even more build diversity
No, because any mechanic that doesn't directly effect HP is a gimmick. The end state of combat is enemy HP: 0. Any role that doesn't directly contribute to that is redundant.
>but muh encounters need CC/buffs
You can make any role arbitrarily necessary. Why don't MMO parties all have a out of combat researcher/bookworm class that unlocks the dungeon door and solves all the puzzles?
Why not a cook to keep the party fueled and spirited? Outside of direct combat interaction its all gimmicks.
The problem is people want TTRPG variety out of MMORPGs.
>it was a very fun role
It was a second game window role.
Aug Voker
RIFT had this, Support specs, and nobody really liked it because your "numbers" are way below everyone else's since the dps meters do not factor in buffs/debuffs
>ctrl + f rift : 1 match
Shame.
Rift speccing is absolutely awesome.
On the same level or even better than warhammer online in the low tiers. The higher levels are bullshit though.
There are so many different specs through all of the different classes/souls and most of them are very viable.
I enjoyed Rift. Logged in today after almost seven years. Basically no one was playing. WoW might be doing something similar in the future.
various mmos tried this but people hate it because it's insanely boring
can you suggest a 4th role?
FF11 Red mage was exactly this and many other things while being able to fill the healer role as well.
Because there isn't a whole rotation for just for buffing.
>tank: full time threat management
>DPS: minmaxing damage rotations
>healer: healing the entire raid
Meanwhile, buffers/debuffers will have one thing they need drop. This is why they just put it into other classes.
: healing the entire raid
>buffer: buffing the entire raid
EverQuest had that. You had tanks (Paladin, Shadowknight, Warrior), melee (Rogue, Bard, Ranger, Monk), casters (Wizard, Magician, Necormancer), healers (Cleric, Druid, Shaman) and 1 CC class which was in the caster category called Enchanter.
It could do middling DPS but its role was to buff the party with MP regen & stats, CC enemies, debuff enemies, charm enemies, etc. shit like that.
I prefer EQ's class system & gameplay anyways I think it's the best way to do an MMORPG... make your class feel like an actual vocation rather than some Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance hack 'n' slash meaningless entity whose existence depends entirely on UI element interaction and queueing into lobbies for "content".
Bard was also a support class, just wanted to add that. if you ever did a plane of growth raid you got to see the endurance marathon they went through.
i also miss Puller being a group role. it was such a unique thing and so many classes had different ways to get it done, from FD to Paci to Fear/Terror Kiting
Dark Age of Camelot had so many utility classes that did this
>mmos have existed for long enough for the support role to have been forgotten entirely
they died out for a reason. pseudo support DPS like Dancer in XIV are infinitely more fun to play than a dedicated support like BRD or GEO in XI
DNC barely does any supporting. Hell it killed the support aspect of rdps when it was made. Now it's all just 'do more damage'
Who fricking cares, it's more fun to play than
>apply 30% haste
>apply 25% attack
>back up to mages
>apply 30% magic accuracy
>apply MP regen
>afk until buffs are about to wear off
Now granted PREMA-gear bards can melee too but it's still less engaging than everything else
I hate that morons like you have become the target audience for modern mmos
I still play FFXI, I just stopped gearing the supports because they fricking suck to play. I'll gladly have a BRD, GEO, RDM, or COR in my group, but I would rather shoot myself in the foot repeatedly than play any of those dogshit jobs ever again.
bro if your BRD/RDM/COR isn't providing some sort of damage in addition to their normal support roles they're poopy-tier. obviously that's dependent on the fight and the situation, but most encounters can accommodate some level of attacks coming from the support roles and in my experiences the damage is a noticeable addition. legitimately, BRD/COR are straight up just another DD after they throw up their relevant buffs (songs/rolls) and provided the rest of the group can stay alive to keep it all moving along swimmingly. granted, needing to spend a crapload of money on the relevant weapons for that 100% uptime is a major setback but I came to enjoy those jobs after putting a lot of work into them.
RDM is generally the toughest to play because they're probably expected to heal and shit out buffs/debuffs so that'd take a lot more effort to deal damage as well, but they can certainly do it with their Su5 weapon (via en-spells) or the normal savage blade spam.
GEO is the only one out of the bunch that just gets shit on in terms of DD utility with the way their (de)buffs work. if the battle content involves lots of movement then they have to keep recasting their luopans and try to figure out how to stay in range of everyone (or the monsters). last I played, the equipment they had access to was also very limited compared to the rest of the normal supports.
>I feel like there should be a 4th that's dedicated to buffing the party and debuffing the enemy.
This COULD exist in a different paradigm, the kind of context that really old MMOs like Everquest were made within, before the days of DPS meters and people needing to be the pinnacle elite in their respective category of doing their class rotation in order to get the most Tank/Healing/DPS numbers and run the dungeon flawlessly by the scientific distillation of mechanics.
Hell, this actually was kind of what WoW was before it turned into that, back in the days of Vanilla you could go to a raid if you were under level cap, you could join even if your performance wasn't perfect, if your gear was shit, and if you didn't know the mechanics super well. You could do that because the game and the players valued players BEING there and just playing the game, rather than running this mathematically-tuned grind machine.
But we're not in that mindset anymore. If you give someone a class that just buffs, but has no real DPS or healing to to measure for themselves, then how do you quantify how peak their performance is? Buff uptime meters? You'd have to build a new (old) paradigm, a game where there is no measuring DPS or how you're parsing, or how high on the leaderboards you are, and instead just focuses on being there, being in the moment, and accomplishing the goal by any means you can.
Every game is made of numbers at its core, so there will always be an optimal way to do any task. So what you would need is a game where multiple tasks can accomplish a similar goal, instead of all progress being decided on pure combat. And of course you'd need to find a way where no one way to accomplish endgame is the best way, leaving other playstyles in the dust.
No, you need players to get their heads out of their asses and learn how to have fun with a game again. People like you are a blight.
Some people's idea of fun is doing a task in the best way possible, to "solve" a problem. You are a fool to ignore and resent that. It's something you must keep in mind with design. You get "broken" build BECAUSE the devs don't think hard enough on the ultimate consequence of their design.
no dev will be able to do what you're describing, even if they were very competent at what they do
tryhards will find the optimal thing to do, even if devs make it annoying
what you really have to do is not give a frick about tryhards killing everything in one week and cater to casuals instead
You give the tryhards their own little corner to play in, Mabinogi had a good balance of alternate progression where you could have fun doing things like singing or cooking than just fighting all the time, and metaprogression for people that really wanted to improve their character through multiple playthroughs but is not required to do content.
that works too, i guess i mean to say do NOT design the game around tryhards and their actions, otherwise everyone else will be forced to follow what the top 1% does or be ostracized from the community for not following the meta
i tried mabi and while it was fun, it didnt really feel like an mmo. i never partied with anyone for the longest time. at least xiv forces you to party with people every so often, regardless of the fact that its basically a single player game too.
This, MMOs need to go back to being fun casual experiences built around long term growth as part of a persistent world rather than intense challenges, and a greater focus on fantasy and adventure rather than mechanics.
Adventure requires a good dose of danger in order to feel like an adventure, a casual MMO can never accomplish this. Just roaming around mindlessly slaying everything in your path is a terrible adventure.
Wtf stop having fun everything needs to be a competition
>If you give someone a class that just buffs, but has no real DPS or healing to to measure for themselves, then how do you quantify how peak their performance is
this is generally classified as "Raid DPS" from what I've seen around. there's no typical concrete measure to it, but it could be relatively simple to sim if you compare DPS results from a known baseline capability to the results provided with the buffs/debuffs. however, it is further complicated because a job focused on debuffs scales based on the number of people attacking the target while a job focused on buffs scales based on the number of people in the vicinity or party. at this point, though, I'm concocting a very elaborate spreadsheet simulator more than a simple parsing/DPS measuring tool. and for what purpose, to placate the "muh numbers goin up!" gays? your original premise was to delete that notion or be away of those kinds of people to begin with, so it's a silly compromise on my end.
>If you give someone a class that just buffs, but has no real DPS or healing to to measure for themselves, then how do you quantify how peak their performance is? Buff uptime meters?
ffxiv dps charts on fflogs already handle this
the extra damage added by the buffs gets credited to the buffer instead of the person actually doing the damage
DC Universe Online has a class called Controller that does that. Gives party "mana" and hands buffing/debuffing.
No the 4th role should be movement orientated and be responsible for positioning the group on the macro level.
In effect he drives
Wouldn't that mean taking away mobility from the other roles?
Why would you try to actively make a game less engaging?
DC Universe Online has a 4th role called controller that refilled mana for the other classes.
Strangely enough that's the most common class for "banished from the party" isekai slop
Those should be 2 separate roles
Make one role for each and make them really good roles
That's unironically how older mmos were. Look at shit like Bard in FFXI or Everquest's Enchanter.
Honestly that should just be part of a healers job.
Healers can already do that.
Buffs and debuffs are part of the trinity, they are just alternative forms of healing and damage or they just multiply the effects of those, they can't fundamentally change the system.
this is why korean mmos were (emphasis on were) supreme
>support role
>make it so extra stats/damage is all accounted for the buffer not the buffee in the deeps meter
>make it so that extra stats/damage will scale off the buffer gear
>same for debuffs
Might be difficult to pull off because gorillion calculations per second, but I say if we can "sim" most stupid shit already we definitely can do this.
Support/buff/debuff classes don't "work" because homosexuals don't clearly see a benefit and they want credit.
Or just something like og PSO2's Zanverse spell.
>do literally nothing but cat a spell
>top xbox hueg deeps because you're just replicating a flat % of damage from the entire group
You mean literally what supports do in every game?
In any video game with a health system where groups fight, two factors are going to be more important than anything else; making the enemy health go down, and preventing your allies health from going down (either by healing or forcing the person with best defense to take damage). Only things that directly affect these two things are going to feel impactful to a player. Something with a degree of separation, like a pure buffer or crowd control specialist, will always FEEL ineffectual regardless of how it maths out.
So, the choice then is if you want everyone to be functionally identical jack-of-all-trades that can do everything, which some MMOs do, or you can have a trinity.
nope
In EQ there was at least 5 roles, and maybe 6. In addition to the Tank/Healer/DPS role, there was a Puller role and a CC/buffer role. The Pullers job was to help break camps, and bring the mobs back from their spawn pont to where the party was camping in the dungeon. The most important quality was the ability to feign death to remove aggro for when shit when sideways, which was frequent due to the nature of buggy pathing and multi indepedent group dungeons.
CCs job was to mez/buff everyone so when everything when sideways it wasn't a wipe. It was the most powerful role in the game, and enchanters/bards with sufficiently large testicles could solo a lot of late game content.
"Kiters" were a more situational role; outdoors zones would drop the tank in exchange for a druid or a necromancer whose role was to max aggro, slow the mob, and then run away from it while the rest of the group whaled on it.
>So what happened to these additional roles?
Given these jobs were fun and interactive, they were pretty popular. Unfortuantely, they left the "pure" roles with almost no tactical decisions. A warrior was just a fat slab of mitigation and hps, and would basically do nothing all game but stand once the mobs arrived, and hit kick and bash on cooldown. A cleric (pure healer) would do nothing but look at his spellbook and cast Complete Heal every minute or so. A wizard would look at his spellbook, stand up, cast Ice comet once every now and then and go back to looking at his spellbook. This sucked for the pure classes, so WoW decided to blend the "fun" classes and roles into the pure ones. Mage was not just a wizard, but also a kiter and a ccer. The warrior had more mobility and reactive abilities Healers had unique undead charms, etc. This went on through BC, probably leading to the most complicated dungeon encounters ever in MMORPG in sunwell keep. People didn't like this.....
>People didn't like this.....
so they changed tanking/healing to be vastly simpler so every single encounter no longer needed to be Pulled or CCed, and instead could just be AoE'd down.
FFXIV then went even further this then, and basically removed CC entirely from the game, and now the BLM of FFXIV is even MORE one-dimensional than the wizard of EQ, except it has to push several different buttons to do the same thing (do mild damage against a giant sponge enemy). Most BLM in ffxiv do not even put sleep on the hotbars, and it would have been considered the most powerful spell in the game in WoW pre WOTLK.
Shut up
FFXI and I assume Everquest had more than 3 roles.
yeah and ffxi is imbalanced as frick
Whats everquest
Buffers and debuffers get relegated to support status. Which support abilities now get dabbled out to the final trinity.
CoH has control/support/damage/healer/tank, and a lot of jank can be done to play without them. You can run a full blaster team, but expect to die dozens of times.
XI has a sliding scale of tank/dps/healer/buffer/debuffer depending on the class, especially on modern retail where everyone can contribute reasonable damage at this point, unless you're fighting something that requires a controlled strat/setup.
XI is a really interesting game, I've had thoughts about trying it (I played XIV but unsubbed after I got to level cap in Shadowbringers). My only issue is it seems like the grind is absurd and it's a huge timesink.
Modern XI moved the grind from the leveling process itself, to the endgame of job mastery and getting your proper i119 gear out of the way. And if you aren't dead yet, then Master Levels afterwards.
Modern XI is a shell of its former glory self though unfortunately, even though I prefer its endgame content more than the old times.
you seem to know a bit about XI, are trusts supposed to deal 15 times my own damage in an aoe every single hit and then spam endgame buff and spells 12 minutes after I started the game for the very first time, or is that unintentional?
nta but from what I've seen of trusts, they don't have uncapped skills and suboptimal equipment like you, so of course they're going to look awesome, but I saw a 2view on YouTube have this same problem specifically with Valaineral just running around one-shotting everything, and what I wish I could've told him was, "You need to go somewhere with stronger enemies." Monster strength progression in FFXI is nonlinear. From level 1 to ~10, you can solo Decent Challenges and possibly even Even Matches. But as you get higher in level, these monsters will beat the shit out of you and killing one will be, at best, extremely time consuming. Even Easy Preys eventually become stronger than you. Counter-intuitive, I know, but it's because the game revolves around partying. So, now you're at a level where you're meant to be soloing enemies, but you have a party of powergamers. It makes sense everything melts. You need to venture further out and find stronger enemies, or solo, or just accept the free EXP before you reach actually challenging monsters.
I can't say if there's a point where you become stronger than your trusts, I assume it happens at some point, but even if it doesn't, is it really a bad thing? They're your companions.
I see
If you're using Valaineral, he AoEs on pull if there's other mobs nearby, and his damage for it is stupid until you hit endgame. Some Trusts are also just inherently very strong at the lower levels. As for endgame buffs, shouldn't be seeing any of that since they generally play by the same rule of being unable to use certain spells/JAs until they're of the appropriate level for it, unless otherwise hardcoded.
Kinda. They have optimal stats for their level and you're going to be leveling too fast to get good gear at any of those levels. You'll still use them post 75 to avoid having to put together a group but in theory they become sub-optimal around then because they don't get all effects of gear that you're getting and when you hit 99 they really fall off. They're still useable, obviously but having even one real player in your party will spike your damage like crazy in most cases
People b***h about the holy trinity but I've yet to see anyone propose anything better. The system just works for co-op gameplay.
Make three attacker classes. No one wants to be the sissy healbawd
This has been done many times in MMOs and the combat ends up having less exciting moments because the game devs can't crater the party HP without a care because they can't be sure the party will always have strong healing in it. It limits design space for encounters ironically because it makes party composition so unrestricted.
It's telling that the two most popular MMOs of all time both use trinity, even though there are many MMOs where you don't need dedicated healers in parties.
>It's telling that the two most popular MMOs of all time both use trinity
It's also telling that half of the population is below average IQ. Appealing to popularity isn't a good move
>No on wants to play healer
Wrong bucko, I like health bar go up gameplay. It's a different way to interact than just making health bars go down. Problem is those two options are the only truly distinct ways to interact with HP.
>BUT I LIKE TO HEAL
yeah if only there were enough you where queue times weren't obnoxiously slow for everyone except healers. Despite needing 1 healer for 2 DPS and 1 tank there's realistically 1 healer per 40 players. Nobody wants to fricking play them except contrarians
then don't say "no one wants to x"
Shut the frick up moron you didn't prove anything
i wasn't trying to prove anything, but saying "all people hate x" will only get you replies saying "no i enjoy x" and then you look dumb because you made a big generalization for no reason
I feel the healer spot in FF14 feels way more involved at the higher levels. After level 60 it feels like you're playing the piano.
Shut the frick up. Every time with this shit. You guys are so annoying. Healers can be fun and have a lot of depth to them, but degenerates and more recent mmo design like to project this stuff onto healer players.
it got really bad when overwatch came out despite that game even having a really cool offensive healer or two. Playing a cleric in EQ felt cool, stopping chains with stuns and roots while complete healing and killing your own god at some point or another.
I played paladins a while back, it wasn't uncommon for your team to have too many healers. Not as a winning strategy but because they wanted to play them. It's one of the few games I've at least seen that be the case
Healers had fun mechanics or were strong.
tank, dps and healer are fine. the problem is, two more need to be added as essential roles, buffer and debuffer. a healer should not also be a main buffer, there should actually be an entire role whose design is to do basically zero damage but make every other character in the raid do 25-30% more damage, and a debuffer role should not be built into the tank or dps kits to stun or stagger, it should be a full role that makes raid bosses impossible with it being in the party.
People keep bringing up buffer as if it's a good idea for a class. It's not.
People call healers sissies but at least they have a direct impact on the game. Buffers are just purely damage cuckolds. Nobody would willingly play that class. The only reason anybody would play a buffer class is if it was also decently good at healing or doing damage or tanking in addition to being a buffer.
ok, so what's your cope reason against debuffer? you are integral to the group, you miss your timing and the party wipes, you have a distinct role that can't be replaced.
It's already hard enough to find people who will tank or heal, adding more essential roles that nobody wants to play will just make it even harder to form groups.
The Holy Trinity exists because it is much less labor-intensive to make "challenging" content based around there being a bunch of high-damage high-health blocks of meat, which means the only way to play efficiently is to laser-focus on chewing down the health, surviving the damage, or increasing the length of time the chewers and survivors can do their jobs.
True, look at GW2. That game launched with no trinity and just varying flavors of DPS. But now years later there are roles again, pure DPS, hybrid buff DPS, tank/heal, hybrid buff heal. All to say they arrived back at a messy trinity.
What would you add imo everything fits in those archetypes, I think it's better cause you can go wide to design interesting class, doing something like taking cc away from dps or buffs from support makes stuff narrower and the class will be boring to play in the long run
*blocks your path*
Given how modern MMOs operate it feels more like theres only 1 class, DPS. Tanks now adays have so much self sustain and damage its more like they are super DPSs that in many games not only do more damage then the other DPS but can tank the mechanics and heal themselves. Healers are now DPS for morons. They are expected to spend 80% of the fight using a 1 button rotation then use a defensive CD to save a tank on specific mechanics and cast the odd heal when someone fricks up. Im not saying that shit like this didnt happen in the past but it feels more like devs solution to other roles being less popular is to make everyone a DPS. As a healer main I hate it. Ide rather the mechanics of the fight require more complex healing strategies and triage then just having me spam 1 DPS button for most of the fight with the odd heal and CD. If I wanted to DPS I would pick a fucin DPS.
>tanks are just super dps
I remember in wow cata when this exact fricking this happened to prot pallies and tank druids the gay ass reasoning was that “tanks couldn’t hold threat against high dps classes”
Then there was the whole gladiator stance prot warrior thing turbo raping arenas for a while which was hilarious considering how much wow trannies cry when warriors have any sense of fun to the class
This.
Glad stance was the most fun i had on a warrior since the wotlk swifty pvp sword and board weird dps tank hybrid.
This is a long frickin thread considering one anon already got it right this early
Party comp doesn't exist anymore
do you expect threads to end immediately once someone reaches the "correct" opinion?
Why not make every character all 3?
>Why not make every character all 3?
Then you have ESO and GW2 where every class just feels the same. Different roles give players different things to do. Blending them into one flavor of gameplay dilutes it.
That's called erasing class identity. Having to rely on other people for their specialized role is what incentivizes actually interacting with other players, which is the only reason to play an MMO (unless you're autistic).
I want MORE ways to play games, not less ways. The trinity gives 3 ways to play. Having every character as a jack means there's 1 way to play.
Well you see there chuck, there are three types of people, you got your dicks, your pussies and your buttholes.
I'm convinced that the trinity is a natural result of the fact that MMO gameplay revolves around health bars going up and down, and the trinity is an inevitable result of the entire genre basically being health bar manipulation simulators.
So, the question of how to break the trinity can reframed thus: How do we make an MMO that doesn't use health bars?
Well?
Health bar go up and down is a problem with all games that have 'combat'. How do you design combat that doesn't use HP in any form, abstract or otherwise?
>How do you design combat that doesn't use HP in any form, abstract or otherwise?
You can't, because that means no one can die or be disabled, but you can take the weight off HP by making objectives & enemy behavior more complex than "kill everything that's running at you in each room".
MMO combat design is solved. Feel free to throw it away or re-solve it in a vacuum to come up with an imperfect solution, but doing so is a waste of time.
The trinity is a contrived system that can only exist (and nullifies the effectiveness of other potential archetypes) because of two things.
>Attrition based health and low damage amounts
Without big healthbars and low damage, healers can not upkeep. Any other game with higher lethality, healers the likes of Combat Medics are often capable fighters who revive fallen allies, or there are no dedicated healers; everyone is responsible for their own health.
>Aggro
Without Aggro, Tanks can not function, period. They would need to be replaced by a more direct and active crowd control type character that can actively move enemies and and block their movement (such as D&D Online, the fighters and other martials can actively bodyblock enemy movement and raise their shield to nullify most damage). Alternatively, the Tank should be not unlike a literal Tank, a big slow fricking combat vehicle that both protects infantry and has a frickhuge cannon, but even one good shot to a weak side will blow it up, requiring the Tank to be defended just as much as it protects the soldiers in formation behind it.
To "fix" the MMO trinity, remove Aggro and even out the damage and health.
Make the Tank a "Leader" - focused on dealing big damage to single targets and able to heal himself and nearby allies passively, promoting the group stay in a tight formation for the Tank's protection (as opposed to the tank standing off to one side while everyone else hits the boss's ass). No mob magnet that makes everything target him, only focus on the biggest guy.
Make the DPS types the general crowd controllers who back up the Tank and keep his weakspot from being targeted by the mobs. Their role is to keep the little guys off the Tank's ass, prioritize any dangerous snipers, and thin out the chaff to prevent being swarmed.
These two alone would form the base composition, and would allow other more utilitarian roles to exist outside of them (and inside the broad "DPS").
But what about boss fights though?
Doesn't Monster Hunter solve this?
in what way?
there is no aggro control in monster hunter. enemies attack whoever they feel like. healing is limited to items with major limitations on use. you don't die by not getting hit.
>nooooooooo I can't handle combat that isn't tank and spank while not not standing in lava
So basically DCUO where everybody just plays DPS because killing things faster is more optimal than tank and spank.
>gunlance and dual sword and lbg are all the same because they all do damage
mmo players are literally the dumbest fricking type of "gamer." it's like the "think outside the box" meme except for them it's the trinity.
In DCUO each power has different interactions and, forms of CC, migitation and utility but despite this everyone still just plays DPS because killing things faster is more effective than playing the game like a typical MMO. In MHW terms this would be more similar to there not really being a specific need or point to the hunting horn or the gunlance outside of player expression.
>nooooooooo I can't handle combat that isn't tank and spank while not not standing in lava
Not what I said you illiterate Black person. Pvp games can have many more roles than the trinity, but those roles are dependent on the map and the arena objectives. Not every pve encounter happens in summoner's rift.
If every encounter in your RPG feels like an arena pvp game against bots, why bother with pve at all?
>why bother with pve at all?
because people are scared of playing against other humans? why do pve only servers exist?
>people don't want to play against other humans
My point entirely. Pvp games/roles do not translate cleanly to pve games/roles. Those players want different things out of games. Each of those audiences should each have systems built specifically for them.
>there is no aggro control in monster hunter
Yes there is. Gear that increases/decreases threat has been a thing since gen 2.
First, there is aggro control. Second, gaps in clear times is one of the biggest gripes about the game. An MMO like monster hunter would just get nonstop b***hing about how imbalanced classes are based entirely on their damage output, which I guess to be fair, is already common.
in maplestory if we dont like a boss we just overlevel it then kill it with 1 button
This post answered OP perfectly.
Health bars need to go down on enemies, which is the primary job of DPS.
Health bars need to stay up on allies, which is the primary job of Healers.
Tanks are a mediator role, made to make sure that Health bars go down on allies in a controlled rather than uncontrolled fashion, specializing in making their own health bar go down in an effective manner, rather than others going down in a less effective manner.
It should also be noted that for some raids in WoW, two kinds of DPS we're present. Single target DPS, and AOE DPS. Depending on the current expac etc etc who could fill these roles fluctuated enormously. I remember that in MoP, Hunters were able to perform AOE DPS via some DoT in a ridiculously GCD efficient fashion, such that, other DPS in the raid was forbidden from focusing on the AOE DPS for that encounter, since the single target DPS was more important.
Note however, that the distinction between AOE/Single target DPS is completely soft, and not truly a mechanical difference. The only true mechanical differences were as stated above:
- Reduce enemy healthbars
- Increase ally healthbars
- Mediate enemy attacks so that ally healthbars remain intact
Remove tabletop numbers, obviously. That would require to make the game realtime only, full action, one hit - one kill, when it comes to players, with exception of something royal-guard-like system, when perfectly timed block would negate all damage and goes on cooldown, forcing players to actively evade.
In this case instead of "tank-dps-healer" we will receive something like "aoe crowd controller with short duration or weaker forms of control - single target controller with long duration or stronger forms of control, who should control boss during mosy bullshit attacks - aoe crowd killer with weak, but aoe damage - single target bosskiller". Every class would require close-quarter engagement. Bosses will attack faster and more frequent, crowds will attack together. All bosses will have crowd adds, so always full party would be required. So everybody would have to evade with cc guus making it possible at all, everybody would have to damage the boss with bosskiller being able to do it better, but only if he is not constantly attacked by infinite waves of adds, which should be controlled and demolished by aoe guys, or not being killed by boss supermoves which should be stopped/weakened by a single-target cc guy.
Between bosses there would be minipacks of melee and ranged guys with several "rare" minibosses.
No healthbars, no equipment, essentially 3d beathemup, where you must fullfill all of your roles or else.
where do you dysgenic freaks even come from lmao like how brain damaged do you have to be to write out a post this long yet this bad
>the entire genre basically being health bar manipulation simulators.
This.
*All* games about conflict are about this. PoE, WoW, Overwatch, Counterstrike, fighting games, *anything* where you're taking out enemies is about getting their health to zero before they do yours. The axis on which you're playing is the 'health' number axis. If you think about it, it's actually pretty boring that there aren't other axes that we can play on at the same time. As in, alongside 'get their health to zero before they do mine' you might have a 'have more [objects] than the enemy team' like say a bunch of balls in your inventory or some shit. Now, now you can have characters that can, while working on the 'health' axis, also play on the 'resource' axis. You can have a sombra running around stealing them without the enemy knowing, and a counter-sombra stealing it back and so on and so forth.
For example, the 'domination' mode on CoD is a different axis, where you have to get more points through owning different points on the map. What other axes could we think of?
Mmos are the premiere game genre for washed up morons who are genuine failures in every other aspect of their life.
because it's the minimum amount needed to build a system around, and thus the least amount of work required.
someone has to be taking the damage, someone has to be healing the damage taken, and the rest of the people can just deal damage.
Because MMOs are designed around content that can be dealt with by a bunch of moronic strangers fighting big spongey boss or packs of mobs and pretty much nothing else.
?????????????????????
DCUO has a controller role.
Dungeons and Dragons Online Rogue class unlocks doors and disarms traps and things like that.
The best way to do this would be to add variety to the challenges in dungeons and have a class that specializes in those things, but that would result in a class that's boring to play if they don't have a way to contribute in fights and the reasonable thing to do would be distribute these utility powers to those of the holy trinity.
I once had an idea for a shadowrun MMO where parties would need a techomancer/hacker and a mage in order for them to deal with challenges within the matrix or the astral in instances/dungeons, like it works in the tabletop game. But that involves essentially having mini-dungeons within a dungeon just for those party members.
Really what you would need to do to expand beyond the holy trinity, is make a parallel gameplay element outside of combat that required its own roles. Like trap disarmer, wilderness survival/food, astral projection to fight astral enemies in the case of shadowrun, etc. and then tying these secondary utility roles to the primary holy trinity combat roles. The various combinations thereof could make the holy trinity feel like it has more variety. e.g. there's a trap disarming tank and a wilderness survival tank, as opposed to just a tank.
Just put barriers in dungeons which require other classes like locked doors, traps and enemies which can only be harmed with magic attacks etc.
enemies that can only be harmed by certain damage types would help, like only being damaged by certain elements or divine magic. You could expand on that by requiring certain types of DPS/tanks to deal with enemies in certain instances, meaning groups would have to take that into account while planning for it.
Like needing a tank for normal damage and a separate tank for magic damage.
Also barriers and challenges in dungeons that require certain specific types of classes would help too.
SWTOR kinda has this where many dungeons have a shortcut to skip a bunch of mobs if you have a member of the group with a certain skill to activate the shortcut.
>instead of tank, dps, and healer (3)
>you now have red tank, blue tank, red dps, blue dps, red healer, and blue healer (6)
wow such good design
amazin
OH MY GOD THE ENEMY HAS A HEALTH BAR, I GUESS WE'LL TRY TO MAKE IT GO DOWN
WAIT... WE ALSO HAVE HEALTH BARS? AND THEY GO DOWN? MAYBE WE'LL BE ABLE TO MAKE THEM GO UP.
MAN THIS IS INEFFICIENT, IF ONLY WE COULD MAKE OUR HEALTH BARS GO DOWN SLOWER WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO MAKE THEM GO UP SO FAST
Because they're bad MMOs. Good MMOs have no roles and let you self heal. Like runescape.
Idk what you're talking about. In Ultima Online, I was a Mage, a Swordsman, a Healer, a Miner, a Thief, a Queen's servant, a Knight in a Brotherhood and a Beggar.
Role 4: Fisherman
he just plays a fishing minigame during the dungeon that is mandatory to progress through it and does not assist whatsoever in any of the fights
Where do I sign up?
Here are the real reasons:
1. Early mmos had attacks resolve directly between combatants for technical reasons. No dodging or parrying. Any interaction was done through stats.
2. Enemy AI makes it very clear who they are going to attack, and will attack every cycle. Damage is guaranteed, and consistent. And thanks to lag, you cant ask the player to react to strict timing.
3. Devs decide it too hard making custom AI for creatures and so have them attack the first player they see until they die, then move to the next. Thus is born the Tank archetype, a player that gets the AI's attention and specializes in enduring hits instead of killing, relying on allies to finish it off. Those are the DPS.
4. This is too predictable and easy, so Devs invent the Threat List, requiring the tank to actually do things or the AI will decide it to attack and kill someone else. Players find this too difficult because there is no tolerance for mistakes.
5. The Healer is then introduced, partially for that reason and partially to include an archetype from Dungeons and Dragons where managing injuries in the dungeon was an important role when exploring. However, MMO characters can heal themselves infinitely when not fighting. To make the healer necessary, enemy damage was massively increased so you cannot defeat them without a healer restoring health in the middle of battle.
So a modern MMO would need to invent a combat system where healing is either unavailable or does not require a dedicated player, and AIs attack everyone in the party rougly equally so Threat is not important. Destiny actually does this the best.
Because video game RPGs have to simplify TTRPGs mechanics to be run with a single set of calculations.
There are many ways a human GM can build encounters and challenges that facilitate many distinct player roles.
But MMORPGs are video games. They are limited by the systems devs can design and implement on computer systems. This leads to combat being about interacting with health bars, and interacting with health bars leads to the trinity.
How come nobody looks to fellow online multiplayer cooperative action rpgs like LoL and DotA for ideas about MMO gameplay? There's a obscenely wide variety of niche but viable classes and party compositions, and a complete divergence on how the holy trinity is shaped and operates. And also sexy playable lizards who can be barefoot without needing mods
>LoL and DotA
Those are pvp games. The trinity and related systems are products of abstracting TTRPG mechanics to vidya pve.
there's no reason you can't design a game around pvp mechanics and then make pve encounters basically work like bot matches
Tell me what the jungler does when the party is in the desert? Why have high mobility divers when there are no towers and the enemy is 10 ft away?
PvP roles exist as a response to pvp objectives and maps. The trinity is objective and map independent. It only depends on the one singular mechanic all these games share, health bar go down.
Bingo. Give the enemy AI a semblance of intelligence and combat will completely change.
If a raid boss was a human player instead of a predictable script, would he just sit there whack 1 player for 20 min?
You can't escape from the holy trinity unless you completely remove the concept of health points with an end condition being health points reaching zero; for players or for enemies.
Reduce damage, recover damage, deal damage.
The problem of course is that anything else is a fricking gimmick and gimmicks aren't fun.
It's not not health points, it's the threat system and enemy AI. When enemy encounters boil down to playing with threat meters, fights become a soulless spreadsheet simulator
there's already shortage of tanks and healers in every mmorpg ever made and adding more classes just makes it worse.
4 if you consider buffer/enchanter a separate role, but I view it as being in the same group as healers. They're both support class. So support, damage dealer and tanks. All classes fall into those three groups/roles.
imagine still playing a game with fricking tab targeting and aggro mechanics in 20 fricking 23
Why are you bothering to play such shit genres?
Having dedicated combat roles that are mandatory for group content is lame, I'd rather just have one damage dealer role with self healing and achieve group coordination through other means like different mechanics for each encounter.
Relying on healers in PvP also really sucks the fun out of any game that has it.
gw2 tried that
They didn't do it right, combat wasn't action oriented enough. You can't make this shit work in a game that's pretty much exactly like WoW.
Modern MMO players are fricking moronic and the concept of something that isn't "Make or stop health bars move" is an alien concept to them.
Isnt every videogame where you fight like that at its core?
it was standard in older MMOs for there to be crowd control roles, and even wow in its earlier days at least had CC mechanics mixed in as mandatory in fights, though I assume as time goes by those things get phased out like I know they did in ff14
CC is a gimmick, HP bar = 0 wins the fight.
Gimmicks add depth if half properly implemented. The difference between a gimmick an a mechanic is semantic moronation
WoW/XIV brainrot in action
Because individual classes are supposed to specialize in certain areas adjacent to their role, creating mechanical complexity.
Most MMOs don't do this now however, as they went from being fun to being story based DPS/HPS/mitigation competitions, and as such you end up seeing each class as a slightly different flavor of the role it fills.
Because world of warcraft.
Literally that's it.
They designed it and wow became the standard whose dick that every other game and dev sucked like they were trying to pump water from the deepest, dryest wells.
because the market for modern mmos are modern morons who hate mmos.
there did not used to be just 3 roles, parties used to be like 8 instead of 4-5. mmos used to be slow paced with very little instant gratification, now they're all instant gratification, daily quests, weekly clear.
you're seeing shit right now with wow are you not? i read they added the equivalent to an enchanter class, and half their players refuse to take it because it just makes them do more damage and doesn't do damage itself so they look at their dps meters and say its shit.
modern gamers are morons, any game designed to cater to them is a shit game. modern mmos have healers doing like 3 roles - that their modern encounter design barely makes use of lets be real anyway - when back in the day those would have been sufficiently split up into a bunch of distinct classes and roles.
pure support used to be a thing in mmos but it's too hard to balance. either the buffs/debuffs are so good that they're wanted in every group or they're shit and the class is worthless.
the mistake was developers believing that these classes being really good and thus desired was a bad thing. that things need "perfect balance"
the players started to b***h that they needed X class for Y encounter and then the WoW devs finally caved and there's been no turning back since because everyone copies wow. early WoW was shaman central and you had fights that only mages and warlocks could tank, even heroic lich king required you to bring priests. then they introduced 10 man raiding for cata and started the great homogenization process that is also present in xiv because they didn't want 10 man raids to require you to have 5 specific classes to even do the fights. "bring the player, not the class" was mentioned as their goal.
the problem was firmly rooted before wow even came out. EQ raids "needed" x of this and y of the other. this isn't a bad thing, but caving into morons who think this needs to be fixed was a problem that started a few years before wow. Complete heal isn't a bad thing, necro twitch isn't a bad thing, shamans with endless mana isn't a bad thing and enchanters with C2 as well was not a bad thing. Making sure every class is vital to the game is good design.
I just don't understand the point of bothering to have classes then removing the distinctions between the classes so they don't matter.
Because if the class is only brought for a niche then its worthless. No one wants to carry the one trick pony. Bring the player not the class was the best thing they ever did. And you see when they moved away from it in shadowlands that it failed. More so now in dragonflight with moronation evoker has become.
In the end everyone does the same thing. Healers heal. No one fricking cares how differently each one heals as long as they do a good job at it.
The moment you go for special snowflake design is when everything flops over. Why bring x when y has this super move. Always fails.
The problem is they created a class designed around fighting in a party, but a lot of the game doesn't require a party and often hinders you if you party up, so trying to solo level with those classes is extremely painful.
Cause MMORPGs are based on decades-old pen and paper RPGs that had to turn combat into math so it could be resolved in a logical and consistent way and wasn't just players arguing with the DM about whether an attack hurt them or not. As a result of this, all players are just a number representing their hit points, and fighting is just basic mathematical operations. While the damage formula might involve a lot of operations, ultimately it's just subtraction when it comes to actually inflicting damage. That's how fighting is represented.
Healing, then, is just addition, the opposite. Tanking didn't emerge from straight math like fighting and healing, but through logical limitations caused by only being able to attack or heal one person at a time for the most part, and the fact that this system was devised originally for groups of people to fight as a team against any number of enemies. They had to make healing less powerful than attacking or else fighting would either never end or pose no risk to players.
Going back to numbers, this means making the person with the biggest number take most of the enemy subtractions, so the person performing addition can just add to their number to keep them alive. It just makes sense. The biggest number will take the longest to deplete, and if you can only perform addition on one person at a time it should be the person who is being subtracted from the most. So the role of being the person who takes all the damage for the rest of the party emerges as a logical result of the constraints of the system.
Every other role is something tacked onto this, not entirely necessary.
Because lesser MMOs have failed to design good combat.
>Healing
>Buffing
>Debuffing
>Positioning
>Distance damage
>Melee damage
>Burst damage
>AOE damage
>Single target damage
>Sustained damage
>Tanking / Protecting
Add in mobility and quirks to classes and you have a variety of unique classes with unique tools.
>positioning
My favourite type. I loved playing Xelor.
Aside for Wakfu and Dofus, are there any other examples of MMORPGs having a class dedicated to repositioning yourself and your enemies?
mmoRPGs should have pure, honest, kino, white RPG COMBAT only.
That means:
>no abilities
>no aoe
>no boss scripts
ONLY autoattacks
Trading hits: the preferred method of the honorable occidental.
STATS ONLY
NO ABILITIES
I agree, I pay my sub to fight a weekly boss. It should be nothing but dps numbers. I need to show everyone how much better I am with my epic raidlogs.Remove tanks, healers and mechanics.
Monsters should attack targets according to what the GM decides.
>creation
>destruction
>preservation
The trinity of matters
FFXI has way more than 3 types of jobs, and each job can perform multuple roles.
For example, Warrior was designed as a tank, but is now mostly a DD but can still technically tank just not as effective as Paladin or Rune Fencer. Or jobs like Ninja which were intended to be damage dealers, but found a role as a tank but are these days only used as a damage dealer.
or Blue Mage, which can be a physical damage dealer / weapon skill user as well as do a ton of magic damage.
Tanks:
Rune Fencer, Warrior, Paladin, Ninja
DDs:
Dark Knight, Dragoon, Monk, Thief, Ranger, Samurai, Blue Mage, Dancer, Warrior, Ninja
Magic Damage:
Black Mage, Scholar, Summoner, Blue Mage
Healers:
White Mage, Scholar
Enfeeblers (weakens enemy stats / defenses)
Red Mage
Buffers and Debuffers:
Bard, Geomancer, Corsair,
Pet jobs mostly designed for solo content:
Puppetmaster, Beastmaster
Puppetmaster was unique in that its pet could change to be what you wanted it to be, a tank, a DD or a ranged DD. Beastmaster was similar in that the pet you were using could be very tanky or be very DD in nature.
FFXI still has one of the best job systems in any MMO. Any character can be any job, which is fantastic and was incredible compared to WoW at the time where you were limited to what your character was instead of being a jack of all trades.
> DD
> THF
The jokes write themselves.
Coming from Dofus other MMOs have so many bizarre things that don't make sense.
>Gear drops from dungeons/bosses
I mean there's technically gear drops in Dofus but it's literally the weakest starting out gear OR 0.01% Legendary Drops in a special game mode which delivers randomized content. Not your "this is how you get gear and how you're supposed to gear yourself".
>Limited amount of times you can do a dungeon/raid/boss
Why?
>Threat
AI just has AI, there's no artificial developer meter trying to frick people over for the sake of it. Learn the AI and abuse it - of course that's easier said than done when the average AI is programmed to focus your weaker and least tanky party member. Of course there are mechanics for Tanks and other people to control mobs to prevent them from just jumping your squishy DPS.
Threat is an actually interesting mechanic in ff11 and a mechanic to play around that adds depth to the game. the more I play it the more I really am happy that it has the threat system it does
What's the threat system?
its got normal things such as healing and damage doing threat, taunting generates threat equal to what healing your whole health bar would generate. every time you take damage you lose a small amount of threat so if you dont generate fast enough the mob will bounce off of you but this means that they may only hit their new target a few times before they "cool off" on that member as well so you can successfully build parties around shared tanking so that you dont have to go all in on tanking with shit damage. you can also tank from self healing, and it also forces you to be active since threat decays over time. Also since healing generates threat you can drop giant heals to pull mobs then run to save someone giving healers more control over what threat actually means in a party. A lot of games design taunts to just automatically place you at the top of threat levels but my making it a more tangible amount you arent just guaranteed a "press taunt receive aggro" button.
>actually have to put in work to tank rather then roll your face on the keyboard
hmmmm
There has never been a class as fun as Bard in Rift. All of the Cleric healers were unique, really the only one that was boring was Sentinel but the overhealing into damage mechanic made up for it. Purifier was fricking incredible. To say nothing of the -Icar specs before they got nerfed. I never got to appreciate Saboteur outside the"jihad squirrel" spec, but both it and Tactican seem neat. Sucks the Rogue healer came after my time. I quit as soon as they announced f2p, I knew it was a sinking ship.
Within those roles there's enough variety
Tanks can be built for endurance, anti-burst, high threat, AoE pulls
Healers can be built for burst heals, regen, shielding
DPS can have a huge multitude of different melee and ranged play styles
There's also sub-roles like range tanking, crowd controlling, buffing, debuffing. These jobs aren't substantial enough to be their own permanent role and any game that tried didn't do it well. So they're relegated to the other specs
>and any game that tried didn't do it well
yeah, okay moron, the best games in the entire genre and that literally made it exist at all "just didn't do well"
shut the frick up morons holy frick
Because, mathematically, that's all you can do. There are only so many ways you can interact with entities.
There are three types of interactions in team based games: self to enemy, self to ally, and enemy to self. Even if you try something like "self to environment", that's just a complex way of saying "self to ally and self to enemy".
>move speed
>attack speed
>range
>aoe vs single target
you can easily make 6+ unique classes just with these 4 stats
There wasn't in the MMO I played. This is just the first three interactions one can imagine in a game
>your number go down
>my number don't go down
>my number go up
Ship it. Sell it.
Dedicated support classes are dumb when party-based MMO gameplay always just boils down to tanking, dealing damage, and healing. You're better off making all 3 roles actually have distinct playstyles and utility instead of just having an arbitrary "buff your team to deal indirect damage" class or a "buff your team to do indirect healing" class
thats because the MMOs you play are shit and don't force the party to deal with threats that require crowd controlling and strategy. it's possibly the genre that's wasted the most potential since its conception.
Supports in FFXI removed downtime. I would call that a benefit. There was also technically perpendicular roles, like puller and hate control. Yeah, one of the other three roles could do these things - which is a non-argument, because you don't even need three roles, you can have two. Or none.
If you want my thoughts, I'd just prefer an online RPG like MonHun or ER with co-op mod.
MMOs are just garbage and their fundamental design (required or not) sucks out any true depth, player agency and interesting design a game could have.
in Dofus positioning is king
kneel
None of this stuff matters if the content can just be solo'd with enough skill.
"none of this matters if the multiplayer game isn't multiplayer"
damn anon. that sure is wild!
Lmao butthurt
oh dang, guess I'm angry now.
The hardest XIV raids, ultimates, can be cleared without healers. Why ave a trinity at all?
I never got to the Ultimates, I was filtered by Thordan EX back in HW, but if that's the case, that's funny to me.
The game is massively pruned since HW and balanced around the new class design. All tanks and healers play the same within their role basically. DPS are a lot easier to play now as well, with the extreme case of Summoner being a clown class with no skill floor. It's basically three buttons.
I know they homogenized damage types (removed pierce, slash, strike iirc). I saw it coming since MMO design always becomes boring as shit. I remember ninja had a passive that negated fall damage too, I wouldn't be shocked if they removed it.
I have had this conversation 1,000 times.
The primary goal of a fight is to reduce the enemy's HP to zero.
HP is king.
DPS classes reduce the enemy HP.
Support classes increase your own HP.
Tank classes absorb the damage that reduces HP.
Because these games are so simplistic they can all only revolve around this metric of HP.
At 1,000 HP you are alive. At 1 HP you are alive. At 0 HP you are dead.
You are in a binary state: dead or alive. Dictated entirely by an integer: your HP.
What if before you can even reduce the bosses HP you need to make them start their turn on 3 tiles of 3 different and slain enemies? Oh and these enemies respawn so killing them isn't permanent. This boss also rapes tanks and one mob has a global attack you can't outrun.
Or another boss that to remove it's invulnerability requires you to telefrag with an ally?
This thought process is what kills game design. You've simplified everything down to the bare bones of it and forgot to add the aspect of teambuilding and having fun. That's how I know you are a raidlogger.
Yeah that's great and all but where's the alternative that isn't worse? It doesn't exist.
HP is fine. Enemy AI and gameplay complexity however, that's where the problems are.
Getting rid of dumb shit like aggro is a good start, make the enemies utilize clever tactics to take down your group and give classes situational tools to deal with those enemy tactics. Don't make healers healing turrets that aim to keep everyone at 100% HP all the time from long distances away, make other classes have to work for it by running to the healer and stand in an AOE for example. Enemies can exploit these scenarios and you as a group have to find ways to prevent that from happening by putting up walls or something. More intricate coordination and synergies between classes goes a long way.
lot of words from a guy who has never made a video game ever in their life
NTA but one doesn't have to make good steak to know that a steak tastes like shit and how to probably improve it
half of the posts in this thread are just suggesting things guilds war 1 and 2 tried to mixed results
I'd still be playing GW2 if the balance wasn't completely shit for a year and I quit because of it
I did the common MMO mistake of leveling and playing a specific spec only to find out that it sucks in dungeons so what I deemed fun didn't get taken along into PvE content
In fact, it has ruined all MMOs for me forever pretty much. I tried ESO but stopped after a few dozen hours because I thought it's all worthless, my spec will probably suck for what I want to do with it
This is in stark contrast to for example Monster Hunter, where every single weapon in good to some extent.
its like its like THESE IDEAS DONT WORK FOR A FRICKING MMO
>Monster Hunter, where every single weapon in good to some extent
Only because the game is easy enough for balance to barely matter, in your average MH game the gulf between top tier and low tier weapons is often vast
He didn't do anything, that's the fundamental design behind all games. Even chess is just characters dealing 1 damage to 1 HP enemies with the variation between them being their mobility.
it's brain damaged oversimplification and saying otherwise over and over again doesn't make you anything other than an idiot. The extra mechanics and challenges aren't just irrelevant nonsense, they ARE the content.
the mechanics become irrelevant content when your ability to damage is so high that you can ignore the mechanics though
then design better fights you moron.
tell that to the devs 🙂
what a useless post. what an astoundingly pointless post.
telling a random anon to "design better fights" was just as useless
I'm clearly not telling that anon to do it you genuine autist. You would have to have life threatening terminal autism to think that
pot, meet kettle
you must really lack reading comprehension if you feel that way. have a good day anon.
stop trying to have the last word in an internet argument you sound silly
we've gone long past the point of looking silly.
I wouldn't praise WoW in its current state, but if your damage is high enough from already having ran that raid like 10 times, being able to break the fight by pumping stupid damage is a plus, not a detriment.
You should never be able to do that during prog, which is what happens in WoW for the World1st race due to guilds doing split runs and all kinds of bullshit.
The alternative would be a gear-agnostic game like XIV where you really do your 4 fights the same way every week for 6 months.
I remember reruns being so boring that everyone in my static would take a turn to have a mental breakdown and do stupid shit around the arena, playing chicken with the aoes or using displacement to do risky repositioning and falling off the map.
The one time XIV had an actual progression system in Eureka, the Baldesion Arsenal runs that resulted were different and fun every time after the first 4 or 5 successful runs. People kept doing dumb shit with the meme spells and breaking the fights, one time we had 6 Warriors pop the berserk meme, their invuln CD and start spamming the suicide bomb meme and they took out 70% of Ozma's health in like 8 seconds. Shit was fun, XIV will never be good like that again.
Bozja was pretty fun. Popping irregular essence on a tank and some other damage essence I forgot and coming out on top on DPS was great. You were so squishy you needed mitigation for every raidwide and attack that would damage you.
>list fundamentals
>get told that's a simplified view that ignores extra mechanics
Uh...yes? Yes. Yes, I think that's what "fundamental" means.
On the contrary, boiling things down to their essence opens the door for thoughtful game design. HP is like victory points in a boardgame, it's the win condition. Once you understand that, you realize that there have to be additional positions and resources to fight for if your game is going to have any depth. There need to be factors that limit HP loss on both sides, as well as changing pressures over time, or players will work out the optimal way to get victory points and never change that behavior. In fighting games, guard and attack hitboxes create a puzzle of distance, space, and timing. Tons of recent jrpgs play around with some kind of break gauge, but you can see how simplistic that is compared to the fighting game example. Still, it's a starting point.
I'm not the quoted anon, but I've always held the view that DPS needs to get kicked out of the trinity, it's just a basic function for reaching a win condition that every player should be able to access relatively equally. Instead, player roles should focus on avoiding lose states and creating opportunities for other players to deal damage. A 'breaker' role that deals similar damage to the other players but critically deals way more stagger damage or debuffs in other ways might do the trick. You can then design enemy routines around emphasizing each player role:
>Brief periods of heavy damage that tanks have to intercept
>Long periods of attrition that supports have to mitigate
>Periods of high defense that breakers have to punch through
What about mobs and a boss that can't be damaged but require specific conditions to be met before they die?
Everyone calls those "gimmick bosses" because they don't fit into the formula.
What if every boss has a gimmick?
What if the world was made of pudding?
They have that in Dofus it's called the Jellith Dimension.
This same argument can be applied for all pvp games. Why doesn't the Trinity exist in CoD then?
Because every other role ends up being either too niche and unfulfilling (considering MMOs require significant time investment into a single character of a single class you don't want players' characters to be one trick pony buffbots or something) or game breaking and impossible to design around (you probably shouldn't be able to CC a raid boss for a significant portion of a fight).
It's just a matter of the inherent constraints of a PvE focused game with significant time investment and extremely high difficulty endgame fights limiting design space.
There are two. Subtraction and Addition. Tanking is artificial allocation and not necessary.
Dofus peaked the MMO genre. Top tier dungeon design.
Play better MMOs, like FFXI
>just play with ai bots
Is Dofus the only MMO where positioning matters???? Just have monster, ally and map manipulation be an important characteristic.
>Oh look the boss has a OHKO nuke that kills everyone around him and he can only be damaged dangerously close!
>This boss is only vulnerable once you position everything properly!
>This boss only takes damage from the environment!
True, there should be only one, Damage Dealers
That way, everyone can focus on avoiding damage with cool dodges and bosses don't just have to slap one or two guys for 20 minutes
What if some classes were better at moving, others at defense, but ultimately avoidance is the thing to strive for
What if classes could stun the bosses and do different kinds of damage
Oh wait I'm just describing Monster Hunter again
MH is shit at party dynamics and creating distinct roles in MP though, and the best party setup in MH has been 4 guns for 20 years because they're just strictly better at everything than every other weapon.
>has been 4 guns
What hypercompetitive shit communities are you part of where that's a thing?
I play with my buds and we play mostly IG, SnS, Doot and Gunlance and we're just, y'know, having FUN. I don't give a shit if your 4 gun group can kill Niggus Gigantus in 20 minutes, I'm over here having fun for 40 minutes instead
>His 4man takes 40 minutes
Jesus Christ
My brother in christ, this is MH we're talking about, it can take 15 minutes or 50 minutes depending on whether or not Jupiter is wobbling today
Can't say I agree. Party dynamics can even come down to things like cosmetics or if you use things like life powder or support like HH.
This. Healing only exists as a dedicated role because Tanking exists as a dedicated role. And Tanking only exists as a dedicated role because these games make damage unavoidable. The combat is an overly simple numbers game with fancy dressing. As games get more complex and we can actually interact with the systems at play, we're able to more realistically react to things instead of relying on those dice rolls. Make damage avoidable and those two "pillars" of the trinity crumble into obsolescence.
*filters morons*
Classless was the way these games should have gone, something Runescape figured out 20 fricking years ago.
i agree, dumb frogposter
Why can't I play as a Boot for instance in MMOs? I could kick shit to death as a DPSer maybe. And why can't I play as a Pillow and smother crap to death? That's what I want to know. If a game like that comes around I'm in.
I like how Maplestory did it. It is a shit game now and I can't stress enough how no one should play that shit nowadays but back in the day some classes have an easier start but have a horrible endgame (warriors) or vice versa (priests) , some is about supporting others with buffs while some only care for themselves, even then pretty much all classes have one buff that make them useful. Some classes are good for bossing while others are better suited for just general level farming. There were roles of course but there was other layers to the classes beyond that that may have you play it or avoid it. Nowadays assuming you can even get Maplestory to run at all the classes are exactly the same, you only play different ones for the poorly translated story or for link skills/perks for your main.
I want less roles in MMOs, all they do is create a static group dynamic that remains the same for every encounter, it's effectively limiting the amount creativity developers can have when designing encounters because they always need to make sure that the group dynamic remains intact throughout the fight.
Dofus where every class is unique and positioning is often more important than healing, tanking or damage
WoW broke the holy trinity with Augmentation evoker
Buff class
>increases exp earned
>increases rewards at end of instances
>buffs party members
>debuffs enermies
>buffs and rewards don't stack so running more than one is redundant
There it took me five seconds to think about.
wow congrats you have permanently locked off one of the spots in the party for a boring but hyper important role thanks
You're thinking of a healer, but nice try.
I can create a novel idea in a minute and you can do nothing but cry in a thread about stale ideas. Go outside
so not only do you have 2 spots taken by the tank and healer (which at least can be different classes in those roles) but you want to take a third spot that gives just stupidly obvious buffs that everyone would want and see no problem with it, crazy
If your only criticism is that it is deemed a necessary class then you have failed because the trinity model requires all to be necessary.
>this class is required because of the enforced quadrinity
okay that's fine, but it's fricking stupid to have a class/role be forcibly required by the game and also have buffs to loot/xp drops because it makes them sound better than they actually are
having that be a passive effect of one role and simultaneously require the role for a group to be considered full is a waste of resources, adds fake bonuses, and if you somehow are moronic/stubborn enough to start doing a dungeon without one, you are gimping yourself for 0 benefit
and if you start your next post with "who says it's required" after saying it's required then I'm cutting your internet off
It should be required. Why not? Roles are already required anyway. Games require a player. Players require mechanics to play beyond hold x to win. An mmo requires multiple players. If your mmo is so shit you can't gather up a 4-person party to clear an instance then that's your fault. Make the class fun to play, the better you play, the better the rewards. Simple.
did you miss the part where having a class buff xp/loot gains is fricking stupid or did you read 10 words and then replied like you're a bot?
Yeah but you're a homosexual nobody, so you calling it stupid is like a homeless person criticizing politics
>my idea is great
>no it isn't
>wow no arguments
>arguments
>i don't care, frick off
You lost. Go outside.
It's funny because this is what happens in WoW now with the AugVoker. M+ is now
>Tank(Pref Guard Druid)
>Healer(Pref Holy Pal)
>Spriest(PI)
>Augvoker(Busted Buffs)
>DPS
It's completely busted and the ultimate proof that support roles DO NOT WORK IN MMOS.
Besides, only Beta males play it
No, support classes don't work where you do nothing but wail on bosses and don't have to account for elemental resistance or armour type. MMOs need more variables in it's combat for actual class diversity to be a thing
>check boss card
>weak to B, activate buff B
woah incredible gameplay
And only a few select classes have access to buff B and you're mage class can't use B spells. Coincidentally, if an enemy has heavy armour you'd need a class that has access to armour piercing or blunt weapons, maybe a rogue or shaman class has access to a corrosive poison they can use to melt armour and lower the enemies defence. Fricking anything is better than just brainlessly hitting the boss with your BiS whilst dancing around in an arena.
Wow guardian druid is actually good? Im used to them being the worst tank.
dont ever design a video game
Because theres the enemy only has to be taken care of 1 bar (HP). If enemies had other stats, like stamina, Mana, maybe an armor bar that reduces how much. Its basically a making a puzzle. The less complex the solutions are the less need of unique classes are needed:
DPS takes care of reducing the hp of the enemy
Tank takes care that the enemy doesnt cause damages to his allies by taking it itself
And support take care about the damage taken being reduced, bupy healing or buffs.
Debuffs enter on all 3. Dps usually have poison or armor reduccion spells.
Tanks have stuns or spells that force the enmy into focusing them
And support usually use debuffs that reduce enemy damage output.
Only way to make a new class is by making mana a little more important and have a mana support that gains a share mana pool by damaging the enemy. For example.
Other way by addind new and unique classes is by adding enemies with other bars like mana or armor problem is. The main focus is taking down the hp, so unless you make, by some way.
Either way its a hard way. For 2 things:
Or you add more bars that need to be depleted at the same time making fights a chore or forcing actual diversity of classes on teams
Or you make only bar needed to be depleted to be down, to do it and get half the community playing only for 1 bar and not playing for both, because people will inevitably minmax or ignore certain enemy types yadayada. Enemies with elemental resistances are usually the most annoying to deal with by most players and some can get absolutely cucked.
This debate resumes in being a hard game about balance and what you want to ask from the players
AP and MP reduction in Dofus fills that
Yes, thing is that works as a point between a tank and a support debuffer. Taking resources of the enemy so they cant use the most powerfull attacks makes sense more from a support/tank wich mission is to take less damage (% talking) that others or improving surviveability of the tank or whoever receives damage. Again unless you force a second bar to be effectively do the same as win state, they just form a way to add more to solve the puzzle wich is only from 3 sides.
Necromancers/Summoners, for example are a tank/supp class more than dps, were assasins, and mages enter more. You can add more variants to the puzzle. But that doesnt changeanything from a basic and simplist point of view. The enemy health must reach 0
>warrior, archers and mages are the same because they are dps
I mean, taking like FF14 as an example, ranged physical DPS have the advantage of having full mobility while DPSing, whereas melee lose dps when they have to step out of melee and casters have limited dps while moving, but it ends up being irrelevant because once the fights get mastered dps uptime is almost 100% for every dps type so ranged physical's main advantage ends up not mattering.
why do mmos have to be based around going into dungeons and killing one really big guy with your party? why can you have a raid that's like a pve battleground where you have to run around and fight different groups and shit?
>why do mmos have to be based around going into dungeons and killing one really big guy with your party?
This is probably way off than what you meant, but your post made me realize something. All these mmos are based on party composition and "forced parties", meaning that you must absolutely form a group to enter a raid, except in few occasions like older content, but that doesn't matter.
Obviously, the exciting part of these games is mostly the combat, but what if everything were to work around dynamic parties? You explore an open world, a dungeon or whatever else and you may engage with any monster or boss whenever and anyone who tags those enemies is automatically put into a party. None of that go-into-a-menu-and-queue type shit.
in Dofus a lot of content is actually soloable with enough skill
and I'm talking end-game content
Pet classes should be able to dps, tank, and heal. Like adjusting to the group shortcoming with specific pets.
Dofus did it
Name me an MMO better than Dofus in class variety. Protip: you can't.
Which way French man?
are there really 20 classes because they all have 4 abilities? cause that sounds not fun
They all have 44 abilities (of which you can only have access to 22 at a time) and then there's a pool of common abilities. Some classes also have unique mechanics built-in to the character and abilities.
how free is it though?
>They all have 44 abilities
Sounds bloated as frick
At some point it's just Beam (red) and Beam (blue) or Heavy Strike (Bleed) and Heavy Strike (Poison) between the classes
All these mechanics don't matter in a p2w game where every piece of gear is enchanted with +100hp
I played in the beta where that one class could just dance on their tiles in a corner to rng meteor the map over and over. Then they ruined it. Did they ever make the weird tile/armor/debuff class cool again?
Are you sure that wasn't Wakfu with Fecas? Fecas in Dofus are considered the #2 best class but IMO they're quite boring.
It's free from the starting area to level 60 on the multi-account servers but the mono-account server requires a subscription. Though for a subscription based game it's relatively cheap. Like $5 USD a month.
You can also theoretically pay for your subscription with in-game currency like EVE autists do - it's doable from my experience.
What's p2w about Dofus?
Dofus has a lot of ways to make each playstyle entirely different.
>What's p2w about Dofus?
>buy ogrines with dad's credit card
>buy the bis set for your level, but with +100 hp on each item
>ignore terrain, positioning etc and only use the same 2-3 skills to btfo content
Classic Dofus was a better game
Dofus has moved beyond the trinity where positioning is so much more important. Enabling one to take less damage, deal optimal damage, to satisfy positioning requirements and more.
>buy ogrines
RMT exists in every MMO and is unavoidable and even then that's not P2W you moron. I doubt your ass could even clear Harebourg if you swiped your credit card and got a fresh lv200 character with appropriate gear. Solotagers don't even use "the same 2-3 skills to btfo content" they use most of their skills because every skill is functionally unique to a class's kit.
because no one can figure out how to make another role that doesn't end up being a flavor of one of those 3.
for instance oftentimes I see people suggest buffers. sounds nice but really you're still basically playing a healer. you're still spending your time pushing your buttons on your allies, keeping them topped off, and staying in range of them. you're just doing it with a buff timer instead of an hp bar.
same with debuffers, you're still just playing a dps pushing your buttons on enemies.
>you're still basically playing a healer
Yeah that's why WoW will have one soon and he counts as Damage Dealer because, wouldn't you know it, he increases the damage output of the group
Seems like it's not as clear cut after all, eh?
>he counts as Damage Dealer
then he's a damage dealer, not a dedicated buffer. did you even read the topic in the OP?
That's how WoW handles it because WoW already has the trinity
But you can't just argue "uhm the healers are just damage dealers because they keep the damage dealers alive and therefore contribute in dealing damage"
There will always be two things you do: something to keep your health bars up (tank, healer) and something to get the enemy's health bar down (dd). What you consider which role is arbitrary, if you decide that there's now a "buffer" role then there's now a "buffer" role even though they might boost damage (dd) or make people resist damage (tank, healer)
look if you want to argue that that's how it is because wow has a trinity then go ahead and explain how it would be different in another game without the trinity. that's the point your argument hinges on and I don't see how you could do it.
I already did, did you only read the first line and you little brain had to stop there?
you didn't you go into vague assertions that you can force another role but you can't actually get to brass tacks to show how they would play differently. that was literally my point in the first post. it'll wind up playing just like one of the 3.
>it'll wind up playing just like one of the 3.
Oooh your point is
>you push buttons, therefore it's all the same
Yes, videogames
You're bringing a moronic argument to a discussion and I thought you tried to make a point. My bad, I attributed more intelligence to you than you actually had
>no counterpoints at all
mmogays are seriously so braindead.
I wish I could be as confidently moronic as you are, but I don't engage with morons sorry
really wrestling for that last reply huh moron? go ahead and take it, I won't bother after this one.
all mmos suck
the gameplay is basic
the story is crappy and timeconsuming
everyone online is a weirdo
AND YOU HAVE TO PAY TO PLAY
>tank
>healer
>DPS
>clown
>Jackie Chan
>sleeps you
>strips all your equipment
>runs away
>recalls entire guild into your emperium room
Pssh, nothin personnel...kid...
ESO for all of its problems figured out that it's far more interesting to let players play a mixture of 2 roles instead of just one. You can play a DPS-Healer or Tank-DPS and it's completely viable.
Try Caravan Stories!
>tank
>phys melee dps
>phys ranged dps
>mag melee dps
>mag ranged dps
>healer
>buffer
>debuffer
>summoner
Because you missed out guild wars, OP.
see
>only 1 mention of Guild Wars
I thought Ganker knew better. A damn shame.
>I thought Ganker knew better.
Why
Most of Ganker is sucking troony dick in FFXIV
What about a class that does all three?
Because it got dumbed down, before you also had buffers and debuffers, you could even add crowd controllers into the mix.
how you can imagine a class with core gameplay based around buff/debuff or CC be playing solo? I can understand buff/debuff but that's just warlock, which is just dps variation, but CC based class would probably be the most obnoxiously boring piece of shit to play you can imagine
>how you can imagine a class with core gameplay based around buff/debuff or CC be playing solo?
Simple answer. They shouldn't.
You would have to have the class play like a dps in solo play, or maybe a tank or something and be able to self buff themselves, while doing damage. The OVERALL increase wouldnt be as much as if used to buff an actual damage dealer, but it would be enough to bring the class itself to a nonfrustrating level of damage. Debuffs kind of the same thing. Just let them reduce enemy defense or something while hitting it so things die about the same pace as a dps class. The majority of their buffs and debuffs wouldnt really need to apply for just solo mobs, and they could dig into their bigger suite of buffs/debuffs for harder fights.
They would be mandatory, but tanks, healers and dps are also mandatory. I would have different classes of each that give a varying array of buffs and debuffs that overlap a bit and work a bit differently. Then its not just THIS class has to be in every group, as does THIS class.
if you focus on CC you could do stuff with positioning. and if the game has varied AI for different enemies and variety in environments (like height differences), that would actually make the class one of the most dynamic classes.
You shouldn't be playing an MMO solo in the first place.
how do you lvl? imagine a class that needs a party just to LEVEL
Average MMO armchair theorist thinks leveling should be the game so you would be forced to party and forced to find a buffer in town respectively
If the playerbase as a whole is max level then get fricked ecks dee
give them a pet
eve online system is perfect
too bad nobody did a fantasy equivalent
>inb4 albion
albion is dota for morons, don't even compare the two
>eve online system is perfect
What part of it?
The PvP? The Ratting? The general "geography" of it with the gates and areas?
If you mean just the combat, having all your combat based around who has the best gear is exactly what we don't want lmao
the combat
pvp and pve
can be as brainless or as adrenaline pumping as you want it to be
>having all your combat based around who has the best gear is exactly what we don't want lmao
??? speak for urself Black person, that's the best part about it
if you're geared enough you can fight off ganks of 20 people on your own
keeping track of everything is extremely hard but if you pull it off it's an amazing feeling
>??? speak for urself Black person
Nah, I'd rather speak for the sentiment I see on Ganker over and over for over a decade now
Just how WoW is just gear checks nowadays, it's a shit design, simple as
>solo bs/car/dread is exacly like wow content gearscore check
???
please avoid talking about a game you never played or don't understand
>you disagree with me, therefore you don't understand it
Sorry, I don't talk with morons
you're saying "vikings colonized the moon" and then feel insulted when people refuse to debate you and call you stupid
get a grip
Shush now, as I said, I don't talk to morons
you are not human
a game i'd make would have you making your own class based on the specific cooldown types you want. you could unlock them as a skill tree and mix/match based on points, and then on top of that your weapon choice has its own cooldowns and buffs/debuffs that you can unlock as well. that way it's not about what class you play but what class you make. i think it'd be more fun that way.
MMO players like simplicity.
Modern MMOs are more complicated than ever
Simplicity means making everyone good at everything, no trees, specs, systems, etc
Just levelling and gear with only the following stats: STR, INT, DEX, END
NTA but yes that's why MMOs are dying as a whole, proportionally MMOs have lost probably the most players out of any genre since WoW's release
>Buffs
>That's just healer
>Debuffs
>That's just healer
>Utility
>That's just healer
>Control
>That's juat healer
The problem is just your general reductionism. Most games are about combat. Combat is about making an enemy dead before the enemy makes you dead. In videogames this is represented by health bars, so when reductionism is applied to game mechanics it just becomes a game of reducing healthbars and refilling healthbars.
buffs and debuffs should come from different types of healer dps and tanks so you have a reason to diversify your roster with all the classes in the game
control should come from some mage character but also a rogue/assassin that stunlocks a key target from stealth while a melee dps can offtank when needed wth a limited cooldown to survive even when not a proper tank
MMOs will be saved once developers figure out that what the majority of people actually want is Elden Ring with more players in it.
Elden ring was shit frick off moron
People complain about the trinity, but every MMO I've played that tried to avoid it was pretty ass. I would have enjoyed Guild Wars a lot more if there were clearly delineated roles frankly. Just allowing the trinity to flex a little seems ideal. FFXI's Bard was by no means a healer, or a tank, or a DPS, but it could buff the party to absurd levels, and have strong debuffs on top of being a top tier mob puller. I suppose they'd slot into healer despite all of that, but it's so fuzzy that it works as its own role as well.
Because at the start of DnD, there was only three classes who basically shaped the roles.
>Fighting Man = Tank
>Mage = Attackers
>Cleric = Healers
I don't want to deal damage
I don't want to take damage
I don't want to heal damage
I want to debufmaxxx
I want to completely dunk on a boss and turn it into a pitiful baby unable to do shit
>But it'd be too boring
Bullshit. If you're worried about that make the buffs/debuffs strong af, but last only a couple of seconds. Boom, suddenly there's a coordination and timing element involved.
Set up traps & glyphs. Boom, now there's a positioning and coordination element with the tank.
City of Heroes was good for this shit. Healers were the worst support.
The more roles you add the more you dumb down existing roles
3 is the upper limit
>chad
>bawd
>everyone else
Don't need more
Stop making MMOs where all you do is raid and clear trash in dungeons, then we can start having interesting classes within the trinity again
what would you do instead?
Craft, explore, socialise (this does not mean ERP homosexualry), trade, PvP, grind, etc. What MMOs desperately needs is an actual risk-reward factor, instead of constantly bashing your head against all for hours until you brute force the problem. They also need to go back to being one big shared world instead of everyone getting teleported to a pocket dimension whenever they do activities.
>Craft, explore, socialise (this does not mean ERP homosexualry), trade, PvP, grind
But people do those already.
And all of these are just side activities or in preparation to raid or are done in an instanced zone. Which is why I added on those two other points.
The issue is for this to work you need a large community that actually cares about all that stuff. Bigger MMOs all have communities that do, you just dont notice it because its not the big flashy part of the game. Do you really think no one that plays WOW or FF14 or whatever focuses primarily on crafting, or socializing or autistically grinding shit or PVP?
it's a homosexual who got into genre post-wow, probably thinks mmos having solo content is good
ignore him
>your role is to pass salt
>get to the dessert level
>banned from raiding
I kind of hate the holy trinity but the only way to circumvent it is to operate with less roles. The only MMO that comes to mind (aside from shit like EVE) as escaping the trinity is Runescape, where there's no roles so every player has to fill every role for themselves because players can't heal you without nearly killing themselves, killing the boss is the best damage mitigation so you need to do damage, and you have to juggle prayers to not die.
After playing an MMO, I think the main problem area is that everyone has an idea on how these roles *should* play that nobody's trying to do anything fun with them. Imagine a healer that's this dude with a greathammer and every third hit you AOE heal the party. Imagine an arcane caster knight that tanks by casting big bubble shields and draws agro with big explosions. Most people are perfectly fine with things they might not like if you deliver it properly, so just get creative and put these concepts in new contexts.
should remove tanks and healers
they currently only exist because some people want to opt out of a direct comparison to people who know how to play the game
CAN YOU PEOPLE PLEASE STOP TRYING TO REINVENT GUILD WARS 2
THEY ALREADY MADE IT ONCE
Didn't GW2 end up with tanks anyways?
the problem is that those roles are rigid and locked to certain classes. those roles should be available to everyone and be determined by multiple factors instead of just picking tank class on character creation. you could make that everyone could level their healing spells, but putting on certain weight of armor slows your casting speed. and if you equip a shield you cant naturally equip a two handed weapon or dual wield. this would allow free player driven hybridization which in turn would eventually destroy these set roles. wizardry already figured this out in late 80s. the game has bunch of classes with just 3 armor classes and 2 spell schools.
This doesn't increase build variety, it just makes it easier to frick up your character in a way that gets you locked out of party play
the same reason why there's only 2 genders, because everything else you can come up with is just different variations of those 3
Because asking the morons that play them to count farther than that is asking too much.
>t. arcane larceny/arcane thievery/signet of illusion mesmer.
Simple is always better, is why classic wow is one of the most poplar mmos, fricking everquest to this day has more raiders then retail wow because nobody wants to deal with retail wow retails complexibility
but mmos with the trinity have already added many subclasses that flesh out the system, why does Ganker pretends that only warrior, priest and archer exists?
Because no one on Ganker actually plays games. People that play games have better things to do than post here.
I mean think about it. This thread primarily attracts armchair idea men, not anyone that actually plays MMOs with any frequency.
Because a bad version of the aforementioned 3 can be compensated for.
You cannot compensate for a bad support. They will make or break your group since the content will be based around them having mild competency.
What about real life? Putting aside vehicles for now, do infantrymen fall into these 3 roles?
I'm not too knowledgeable on the subject, but I can think of:
>DPS - Normal infantryman
>Tank - Ballistic shield carrier
>Healer - Medic
But then you have snipers, which are not DPS but rather do burst damage from a safe distance, stealthily.
What are mmos missing that prevents them from having sniper-esque roles as a core role?
Also if anyone has any more role suggestions based on real life warfare I'd appreciate it.
I mean a sniper is just a WOW rogue but at range. Or an old school hunter, but at range. Burst archetypes are not new, but they almost always are PVP only archetypes that the entire PVP meta has to be balanced around.
Not unlike sniper rifles in shooters require entire games designed around them just to have them not completely dominate the game.
Real life warfare is so different from RPG-like combat that is hard to draw any comparisons, in real life everyone is a stealth sniper glass cannon, even tanks are not really meant to tank that much in the sense we understand it, the main thing that separates both is the role that terrain plays, terrain is everything in real life, it dictates the course of battle.
In most RPGs terrain is meaningless, combat might as well be conducted in empty flat plains.
The Wakfu MMO has 5 major roles.
>DPS
>Tank
>Healer
>Buffer/debuffer
>Positioner
And several subroles (off-tank, support, shielder). It's pretty neat.
what is the positioner doing? i mean the namesake suggests things but how does it do it?
Depends on the class, the Panda carry and then throw peoples while most other classes have pull/push and slows.
The game is a tactical turn based RPG, so you fight on a grid. A positioner puts allies and enemies where you want them. It can do a bunch of things like:
>Dragging an ally out of imminent danger and putting it next to your healer for saving
>Placing dangerous mobs away from your team (kiting basically)
>Getting your damage dealers into position and giving them acess to backstab multipliers (backstab dmg is a 1.25x multiplier)
>Placing enemies in a clump for your AoE damage dealers
>Manipulating certain boss mechanics that require correct positioning
>DPS
>Tank
>Support
>Support
>Support
Every role is support because they support your group winning the battle
But it's true, no one has ever invented a role that's not some specialized function from one of the big three.
DPS is just a support that does health debuffs
Weak bait, bot kun
damage is the role that does the action that kills the enemy, support means the action that enables the damage to function or be more effective, healing, buffs, crowd control fits into this.
Arbitrary and loose definition, completely meaningless.
FFXI has four, support and it's so good most parties try to stack as many as they can.
Because there's sub groups attached to them and you can mix the main ones together.
Dancer is technically a DPS in XIV but she's highly supportive. Warrior Tanks in Tera were more DPS + debuff and had less actual tank shit. XIV shield healers are not the same as normal ones and AST is known for buff memes. CC in that one DnD MMO from 6+ years ago specialized in adds which were in every single boss fight but contributed very little actual boss dps.
The only real conversations to be had are "Why not a support role" but far more important than that is "Why is everyone technically a DPS but with other buttons?". Even if a support role was added it would just be a DPS with some extra shit to help people.
The only way you could get back to a real hard 3 role system is if you go back to Vanilla WoW shenanigans where you basically couldn't DPS as a healer OR to setup fights and things in a way where the healers have no real time to do anything but heal and supports have no real time to do anything but support. Because everything now is DPS + <Role> by design.