I replayed this and OoT back to back. Twilight Princess is objectively just the better game. Dunno why contrarians keep downplaying TP's greatness so much.
People were expecting a Zelda game akin to the E3 tech demo since the early 00s. WW was widely shat on because it didn't apply to the ongoing "more realizm!!" bandwagon, no matter that it was technologically and gameplay-wise superior game.
In the end, TP was super rushed, half-baked clusterfrick. It didn't even have a plot written, 6 months prior the release.
Incorrect.
TP is by far THE worst mainline Zelda game in every conceivable manner. 8.8 was very generous.
TP is certainly among the worst, but it's certainly not worse than Skyward Sword. Also not worse than PH or Spirit Tracks if you count those as mainline titles
Also I want to say that even as one of the ones who did not like wind wakers art style I feel that Nintendo was pushing it way too hard. Minish cap, 4 swords, spirit tracks, phantom hourglass, and other side games besides all had that Zelda look while the previous games did not have a settled style. I would have been just fine with Zelda having a few toon looking games but they tried to turn it also into the established look of the game.
The only reason we even consider there to be "non-mainline" Zeldas is because Minish and FSA were mediocre and the DS games were trash. Nobody ever acted like Awakening or the Oracle games "didn't count."
>TP is by far THE worst mainline Zelda game in every conceivable manner. 8.8 was very generous.
It has a literal fertility goddess as a co-star and a cool nightmarish atmosphere. You have awful gay taste.
no you didnt moron and if you did you'd know how fricking dog shit the temple in the sky is and how bloated the overworld is and how trash hyrule's castle is. i could go on but i've already reacted to your bait enough
The backlash against the wolf form seems like it's coming from people who don't understand the Zelda series at all.
Turning into an animal when going into a parallel world was a concept established in LttP. TP just took this concept further and even gave you a bunch of unique npc dialog that you can only listen to in wolf form.
>Turning into an animal when going into a parallel world was a concept established in LttP
in LttP you're helpless as a bunny. You get an item almost immediately (before you ever go into the dark world proper) to stop yourself from turning into a rabbit. Being a wolf in TP just isn't fun. There's nothing to misunderstand. It just sucks.
thematically appropriate != fun to play
there's a reason the rabbit segment of alttp didn't eat up a third of the game
the rabbit segment takes all of 30 seconds too at that.
The wolf combat is pretty boring, but it's over very quickly if you use Midna's ability on everything.
But the other abilities that you get in wolf form are pretty standard Zelda stuff.
Wolf-sense is just like the Lens of Truth in OoT.
The scripted jumps with the wolf are just a faster way of traversing.
The music howling minigame is literally just the Ocarina mechanic again, but more guided.
Getting alternate dialog from NPCs in wolf form is like what some of the masks did for you in OoT and MM. Wolf-running is also nearly just as fast as using a horse and actually preferrable most of the time when you have the ability to freely transform between wolf and human form.
What is it about wolf form that is so "unfun" to you exactly? It just sounds like you're a moron that thinks Zelda gameplay is only fun if you're playing as an elf.
It was the first major moment to show that Aonuma's understanding of the Zelda series was surface level.(and still is). He thought that just throwing a grittier and less cartoony coat of paint on top of a sealess Wind Waker is all that OoTgays wanted out of an "OoT2". He had no idea what made OoT such an enduring classic that many people still maintained as the series' golden standard of the series even well into the GCN era.
And now, he thought that just making BotW non-linear and open world was enough to make it a "callback" to Zelda 1, ignoring that Zelda 1 had item gating, an intended dungeon order, and required you to beat all of them to enter Ganon's Lair. Hell, Aonuma never beat Zelda 1, so him trying to claim that BotW is a callback to it is all the more laughable.
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/27743/eiji-aonuma-never-completed-zelda-1
>he thought that just making BotW non-linear and open world was enough to make it a "callback" to Zelda 1, ignoring that Zelda 1 had item gating, an intended dungeon order, and required you to beat all of them to enter Ganon's Lair
You're being pointlessly reductive here. "Callback" does not imply "emulation" and BotW doesn't even attempt to be exactly like LoZ, as it also borrows a ton of elements from later games in the series.
There are valid critiques to be levied at Aonuma and he is hardly my favorite Zelda director. Yours is not one of them.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
He failed to grasp Zelda so hard that he turned it into a different type of game entirely and tried comparing it to the first entry in the series (that he never beat). How the frick can you call his understanding of the series anything more than surface level?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
It's pretty obvious to see where BotW's inspiration lies in regards to LoZ, and again, nowhere is it stated by anyone involved in that game that they tried to make it exactly like the first. I could go into even further specifics about Aonuma's influence over the franchise as a whole and how he was largely responsible for what made OoT as good as it was, or how Zelda even from its NES days was never developed with some "core unchanging identity" in mind, but judging from your posts, you're clearly not capable of having a nuanced discussion about this sort of thing so I won't even bother.
>he thought that just making BotW non-linear and open world was enough to make it a "callback" to Zelda 1, ignoring that Zelda 1 had item gating, an intended dungeon order, and required you to beat all of them to enter Ganon's Lair
You're being pointlessly reductive here. "Callback" does not imply "emulation" and BotW doesn't even attempt to be exactly like LoZ, as it also borrows a ton of elements from later games in the series.
this but unironically and I could write paragraphs about why it's true and I've refuted dozens of contrarian anons on Ganker video games in prior threads
Yeah you can, people have shit opinions that aren't logical. It can be as simple as pointing out how underlining irrational their opinion on something is.
Like look, most people on this board actually say things that are objectively false about a game, and try to pass it off as an opinion. So shit like that is easy.
totally, and it makes sense considering you played Ocarina when you were young and like it because of nostalgia, so that's what you think about everything. >le best game is the one you played first!
TP was my 6th game
I grew up with gameboy zeldas, did go back to emulate OoT until high school. TP was a boring slog, just very mediocre experience throughout except the dungeon where you get the top. Gameboy zeldas are still the best to me but OoT is leagues better than TP
the motion controls alone elevate it, let alone everything else. great music, great dungeons, great combat even on horseback, great world building, great character development, better telegraphy, better item utility, there's not a single thing it does worse. because need I remind you there's not a whole lot to discover when exploring in OoT. and doing dungeons in different arrangements on a replay adds nothing in reality.
the problem with OoT nostalgia, is that nostalgiagays wont reappraise the game and figure out the shortcomings of the game. I could type up a paragraph on why the game wont hold up now.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>the motion controls alone elevate it
Actually that's one of the things that really turned me off from it, and it's the one thing Skyward Sword did better. I think it's a blessing they released this on the GameCube so you don't have to deal with the motion controls. >Character development
Not even. Many of them feel like retreads of OoT characters that forced themselves into the story. >Better telegraphy
What do you mean by this, messages over long distances, coding, what? >Better item utility
No way, there are some fun items in TP but they're vastly underused. >There's not a lot to discover in OoT
OoT's exploration demonstrates what's so appealing about Zelda IMO, there's always secrets and conversations and world context to discover. TP's story railroads you so hard with cutscenes and linearity that there's barely any of that. >OoT nostalgia
You keep saying this but I don't even consider it my favorite Zelda game, I liked MM more.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>OoT's exploration demonstrates what's so appealing about Zelda IMO, there's always secrets and conversations and world context to discover.
TP doesn't have any less of this stuff than OoT, and if you think it does you just didn't play it.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>because need I remind you there's not a whole lot to discover when exploring in OoT
ROTFLMAO
TP has less to find in its overly bloated world in every possible way. It's TPgays who are running on nostalgia
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>TP has less to find in its overly bloated world in every possible way. It's TPgays who are running on nostalgia
Objectively wrong. It has MORE of everything than OoT had to find. More heart pieces, more bottles, way more minigames...
I guess the one thing OoT has more of is its 100 gold skulltulas, which the TP equivalent is its 60 poe souls, but even that is made up for with the bug quest which doesn't have an equivalent in OoT.
TP also has the hidden combat moves which OoT doesn't have an equivalent of.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>which the TP equivalent is its 60 poe souls, but even that is made up for with the bug quest which doesn't have an equivalent in OoT
LOLWUT. The two combined still add up to less and both are lamer and shittier quests, with bugs just obviously sitting there out in the open, while poes are just scattered around so that you see them for ages away, but only if you wait for nightfall.
TP significantly has fewer optional major items. There are no magical items (ALL of which were individually optional in OoT) and Epona is simultaneously forced on you while being far less useful to actually explore with outside of designated sequences.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>There are no magical items (ALL of which were individually optional in OoT)
I would say the equivalent of this in TP is the combat moves that you learn from the Hero's Shade. Those are all optional, and they actually have great utility in combat especially with the Cave of Ordeals (which I forgot, that's ANOTHER great thing TP has which OoT has no equivelent of).
Epona is required for several parts of the game which made her have MORE use in TP. You could completely skip Epona in OoT and you'd miss out on nothing other than Lon-Lon Ranch minigame and the poe-hunting quest.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>LAMER than gold spiders
no
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Absolutely yes. Skultulas are a well designed collectable that you can try to narrow down your search for progressively by picking up various clues. Marks can appear on your map to indicate if they are in a given area, you hear the sounds as you approach them, you can deliberately switch to night time to hunt for them etc.
no
Why do you constantly post this image which shows the opposite. TP barely has non-trivial shit in it.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>great dungeons
it has braindead dungeon design, and the item utility is a joke. once you leave the dungeon theres like 3 places to use the items
the motion controls alone elevate it, let alone everything else. great music, great dungeons, great combat even on horseback, great world building, great character development, better telegraphy, better item utility, there's not a single thing it does worse. because need I remind you there's not a whole lot to discover when exploring in OoT. and doing dungeons in different arrangements on a replay adds nothing in reality.
the problem with OoT nostalgia, is that nostalgiagays wont reappraise the game and figure out the shortcomings of the game. I could type up a paragraph on why the game wont hold up now.
>TP has less to find in its overly bloated world in every possible way. It's TPgays who are running on nostalgia
Objectively wrong. It has MORE of everything than OoT had to find. More heart pieces, more bottles, way more minigames...
I guess the one thing OoT has more of is its 100 gold skulltulas, which the TP equivalent is its 60 poe souls, but even that is made up for with the bug quest which doesn't have an equivalent in OoT.
TP also has the hidden combat moves which OoT doesn't have an equivalent of.
>I could write paragraphs about why it's true >Just lists a bunch of basic empty platitudes of "It's biggerer and betterer and everything-er" without further explanation
Typical TP tard.
They're both ultimately underwhelming. OoT is too barebones compared to its successors, TP has too much mandatory setpiece/minigame bullshit. BotW fixed the series, deal w/ it nerds.
>TP has too much mandatory setpiece/minigame bullshit
BotW is nothing BUT setpiece/minigame bullshit. If by fixed the series you mean that you can skip them all, then sure you're right.
Now you're just talking out of your ass. There is almost no setpiece or minigame in BotW (outside of maybe those short pre-DB segments) that feel divorced from the core mechanics. TP's entire playthrough is making you do shit that doesn't feel in line with its main gameplay loop at all.
Koroks are minigames. Many shrines are minigames. Those are the most numerous types of content in the game. I think we're using different definitions of setpiece though.
We're using different definitions of minigames too. I'm just talking about the stuff that TP forces players to do between dungeons that don't involve the central mechanics of the game which is very different than BotW's shrines and koroks. That shit is beyond annoying and is to a large degree why people say that TP has so much filler, even though they're kinda bad at articulating why.
TP is paced like shit, and the alternate gameplay style is just trash.
That being said OoT has some of the worst dungeon designs in the series and has a paperthink story with characters that are barely two dimensional, so it's really pick your poison.
The Wii U version of TP is probly the better than OoT.
>worst dungeon designs in the series and has a paperthink story with characters that are barely two dimensional, so it's really pick your poison. >worst dungeon designs in the series
wrong >paperthin story with characters that are barely two dimensional
it does what it needs to
>OoT has some of the worst dungeon designs in the series
What shit taste. Like what the frick else is it competing with? WW dungeons are terrible, Skyward sword as a whole is dogshit, and the BOTW era """""dungeons""""" can't even be called as such. TP ones are good, but only the second half of the game.
>paperthin story with characters
this is nearly every zelda game, honestly. OoT just does the absolute best with the archetypes it presents.
There's a reason that the zelda franchise is still copying Oot's Impa, Ruto, Darunia, Saria, Ganondorf and various other characters. Although simple compared to non-zelda, non-nintendo franchises in its writing and characters, it remains the foundation for the rest of the franchise (to a fault even, since I want to stress that the Zelda franchise really hasn't surpassed the writing of then N64 games.)
homie Impa was in the first 2 games' manual.
The 7 sages are nothing original they came straight from ALTTP. Link's Awakening was the first game to truly flesh out characters
I judge a Zelda game by how close it is to A Link to the Past (the quintessential Zelda game), and in that respect OoT and TP are both close but OoT is closer.
>focuses on dungeons and unique items >has a dark world (of sorts) >Link transforms into an animal (LttP Link is pure so he's a bunny, TP Link is rougher so he's a wolf) >Hyrule Castle is explorable >"it was Ganon all along" twist >two act structure
It's sure as hell closer than Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, Skyward Sword, Breath of the Wild, and Breath of the Wild 1.1.
TP and LTTP feel like the quintessential games in the franchise. They both do Zelda flawlessly, from two different dimensions/camera perspectives. OOT is pretty dated, and its claims to fame was being LTTP in 3D. However we don't need 3D LTTP. We never really did, it was just mind blowing at the time.
TP is a poorly paced game with a lot of stupid stuff tacked on. OOT is great.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
TP is immaculate in design, the transformation is the most versatile one, and OOT is barebones and I cannot replay it anymore.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
The wolf transformation sucks hard. I'd rather just stay a human the entire time and not have to hunt bugs. The actual dungeons are good, but getting to them sucks 9/10 times.
moronic take, every game has better graphics than one made even half a decade earlier with rare and hilarious exceptions
https://i.imgur.com/LeAKQsz.jpeg
nintendo was kind of cutesy looking and behind the times for the most part, twilight princess was the first zelda and one of the first main nintendie games that really had that realistic + edgy look to it
I replayed this and OoT back to back. Twilight Princess is objectively just the better game. Dunno why contrarians keep downplaying TP's greatness so much.
wolf parts suck, too linear, items are unitaskers
fishing is good tho
TP is quite literally OoT2 but it you take them at their time of release, OoT is absolutely the better game for all the shit it introduced and the massive influence it had on games in general.
The mere fact that people had to take time to explain what the Z-targeting/Lock-on was and worked gives a good idea of how it introduced elements that are now considered standards to most people.
We had a lot of extremely successful games with exploration before BotW but to stay on the Z-Targeting example, I cannot think of a single game before OoT that had a targeting system that also altered your movements like OoT's does, the only one I can think of before 2000 is Soul Reaver but it still released like half a year after OoT.
Mega Man Legends had a lock on that sets the camera right behind the player and centers it on the enemy, but you couldn't move while using it iirc.
In MML2 the lock on works like Zelda.
Unironically, because most people played the much shittier Wii version of the game. The gamecube version plays so much better and the entire fricking game world isn't mirrored
it might be a better version of OoT, ill take your word for it. but back when it released i had a hard time caring about the game and its world because it felt like a clone. it also had a boring color pallete and the next gen boring filter on everything. Midna is the only thing that sticks out from the game. im usually pretty good at remembering the world of games i play, and twilight princess is one that i remember almost none of. it was featureless and plain.
TP rides OoT's nuts too much to the point of being detrimental. That's a sentiment that was very commonly shared when it was released. Lots of people even considered it a downgrade because many aspects of the game short of the Dungeons were either carbon copies of content you'll find in OoT or objective downgrades from them. The story pacing was worse, the game had multiple gameplay points that throttled progression, and on top of the bosses being worse, the final battles copying Ganondorf just gave players that still considered OoT to be the best game something to compare it to. Old Man Ganondorf awkwardly wobbling along a dusty old field pales in comparison to Ganon's execution in OoT.
If they let the game be its own game, it could've been one of the best titles in the series, if not THE best. It instead spent all of its time in OoT's shadow.
TP is cool to hang out in, but the content on offer is pretty mediocre. Worst hub out of the Zeldas with a hub, the overworld is a formality, the small amount of side content that exists is pretty ass, the writing is overall pretty crappy, and it only has a few good dungeons.
Better than most action adventure games, but one of the weakest "real" Zelda games.
>Only because of Koizumi's limited input on the story
Are we still pretending Wind Waker has a good story because of le man of coveting wind says one slightly deep-sounding line in the entire game?
The story doesn't matter, the dungeons suck which makes it the worst 3D Zelda that isn't nu-Zelda. You fools don't seem to understand that the most important thing about a Zelda game is the actual LEVELS. The in between dungeons segments are merely fluff. It's why I despise the direction nu-Zelda has gone in. TP is solid enough, cause the dungeons are good, I can overlook the in between bullshit being annoying.
Wind Waker was released in an era where Jak and Daxter and Ratched & Clank came and took everything.
They just copied the childlike artsyle and made it more toon.
It was 2000s style,what was popular, especially with kids(like me)
Zelda wasnt competing with Devil May Cry ffs,of course it needed to have that artstyle.
>Boomers
Millenials
They spent the entire GameCube lifecycle being treated like stupid grade schoolers with the worst gwafics after being loyal Nintendo buyers.
Overall the funny thing is GameCube was far from the weakest gen six console. That honor goes to PS2 and Dreamcast. But the reality is none of those tryhards I wanted to have approval from in leu of my parents apathy stayed gamers. They all moved on to xbawks and 360 then got emasculated by their own shit and went back to watching football and the occasional mobile game while streaming game grumps in the background.
T. Millenial who was there.
Also as an addendum even when I wanted to like wind waker hearing it had way less dungeons again after MM cut the number down made me sad. Honestly I feel like Zelda dungeons are the real meat of why I want to play these games, but the addition of too much dialogue really tanks that hard. I think if Nintendo ever goes back they need to do a trailsod/Metroid prime style in media real where you take down a dungeon the moment you load up the game. Then they can introduce players to the world.
They had their heads shoved in toilets for liking Wind Waker and thought that Zelda being serious meant they could like it again. Unfortunately for them, Nintendo Wii.
Remember that this was still a time when people still saw darker and grittier graphics as the end-all-be-all, and there were a lot of people who were genuinely disappointed by wind waker's graphical choices (despite it being beloved for that aspect nowadays).
I was expecting something like this after an article in Nintendo Power. WW wasnt what I was hoping for, and I bet a ton of edgy teens like me thought the same thing.
This. It looked like the direct sequel to OoT that everyone wanted, and the shift away from WW's cel shading into something like an updated OoT artstyle was perfect. Then the game came out and it was complete shit. People can hate Skyward Sword all they want, but Zelda started to go downhill at TP and I'm tired of pretending otherwise
Because Wind Waker was wack as frick and people were starved for an actual cool Zelda game again. Fricking done, you don't need any more information than that. People were so disappointed by WW that TP is what they needed.
Are we back to hating WW now? Has any Zelda game had such a flip flopping reputation as WW? >hated before it came out for toon graphics >loved it on release >hated it years later >cult following leading up to the re-release >back to hating it again
pretty sure the "we" you're referring to are just different people with different opinions, some people never liked WW, mostly those who were above the age of 15 upon its release and still seethe about it
it's because WW is a mess.
People hate the art style.
People love the art style.
People realize that the art style is the least of the game's problems and its issues are rooted in the gameplay/progression/etc
Why are people like you so incapable of understanding nuance? Is it legitimately autism? Sincerely asking not trying to be rude. This is like second grade level stuff here, the ability to understand that different people hold different opinions regardless of what a consensus may be seen as
Even though i respect TP less, i understand the necessity for it, there was a lot of context riding on a "mature" followup to MM, an already dark game, promising that high definition Ganondorf fight
because it's a shit game. it lifted the feel of shadow of the colossus, combat is piss easy, wolf link is just a glorified QTE press a to jump shit and the plot doesn't change the world in any meaningful way. as far as Hyrule and the people are concerned, ganondorf came back and died the same day.
It had a lot of hype because it was supposed to be the "mature" gamecube zelda game that we wanted the Zelda game after OoT and MM. In reality it's just a pretty good game, nothing amazing. The 8.8 is generous, I'd say 8.0. Midna is by far best girl in the whole series though.
switching between forms in both games are eggregious.
restocking your items every time cycle is terrible.
the dungeons which were good for that era are now too basic.
iron boots being an equipable.
bunnyhood being a face button.
all these games need reimaginings, WW, MM, OOT, they're stuck aging rapidly.
new games come out, and there's evermore less reason to revisit them.
you only have to switch like 3 times in oot. switching between forms in mm is literally a button press
When was the last worthwhile "Ocarina-like" game that came out? Since BotW/TotK are clearly not the same kind of game. Have there been any at all since Skyward Sword and Darksiders 2?
>pause game >equip mask >unpause game >don mask
imagine if there were a stretch of the game that required switching between forms. it would be very apparent how cumbersome all this is, wouldn't it?
SS HD is. Stop being nitpicky. If this is your favorite game genre it's still a great play.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Its not being nit picky. I just don't like Skyward Sword.
>SS isn't worthwhile
It is to me and it always was.
can't argue with that.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>SS isn't worthwhile
It is to me and it always was.
Holy shit, we've now gotten to the point where the Skyward Sword babies are old enough to post on 4chin.
Your shitty game will always be remembered as a blight on the franchise, including by the developers themselves. Remember that you scum.
>switching between forms in both games are eggregious.
Damn. What does that make the wolf transformation then? >restocking your items every time cycle is terrible.
Skill issue. You only need to restock what you need at the time. The game is all about time management and organization. (Also reminder: EVERY Zelda game makes you restock your items on a regular basis, some making you go even more out of your way due to the way the maps are set up. It's just part of being an adventure game where you use items for everything.) >the dungeons which were good for that era are now too basic.
I don't know what you mean by this. Every Zelda game on after aside from the wild games follow just about the same puzzle format, but WW and TP have some of the most linear and basic dungeons in the series. >iron boots being an equipable.
Probably the only valid complaint for OoT but it's fixed in the remake. >bunnyhood being a face button.
Yikes. Any more hair splitting Arin?
>What does that make the wolf transformation then?
the most versatile transformation in the franchise
ohhhh damn, skibbity
no but really I'm probably not gonna read the rest, I cannot stand greenposting things piece by piece with a blatantly unselfaware comment on each line. learn to type up a paragraph that concisely communicates a coherent point.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
each of the mm transformations are just as if not more versatile than wolf link
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
the Wolf does 8 different things. none of the MM transformations does 8 different things. that's what I mean, the wolf provides an organic reason behind abilities that in other games forced you to pause and reequip things.
I get it you like Zora swimming. You flail like a dolphin.
I get it you hate the changes to the swimming in the 3DS version.
you wont be able to appretiate something like the race against the beaver on 3DS, where you have to hit pots in addition to maintaining a lead.
akin to collecting the silver coins in Diddy Kong Racing while finishing 1st place.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
list the 8 things
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
playing songs
warping
faster movement
removing dirt
burrowing through walls
seeing invisible things
talking to animals
learning and following scents
leaping to far flung platforms
grappling switches
I might be forgetting one, but why do I need to name them for you. Have you played the game? the wolf transformation does a lot, and accounts for lots of things.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>playing songs >warping
both of these are stretches that dont inherently require being a wolf, the game just restricts you to wolf form for performing those actions >faster movement
true >removing dirt >burrowing through walls
these are the same function >seeing invisible things
true >talking to animals
this is basically a non factor. it does this but I couldn't think of it off the top of my head when thinking about what the wolf form actually does. >learning and following scents
true >leaping to far flung platforms
true >grappling switches
true, but this didnt have to be a wolf thing
even if i take all of what you say at face value the mask transformations do the same amount of things
deku link can >hop on water >faster movement speed >warp >play songs >fly >drop deku nuts like bombs >burrow into flowers to fly into those CAD CUAG enemies >shoot bubbles >spin
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
#
Deku Link can also paralyze enemies which is something the others can't do.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>both of these are stretches that dont inherently require being a wolf,
they literally require you to be transformed into a wolf
I ain't reading the rest if this is how low the bar is off the bat dude.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
thats twice this thread someone has said >im not reading the rest of this
both of those things IN GAME require you to transform into a wolf, but the programmers did not have to tie those things into the wolf form. That is what I meant. Teleportation is something you can select as a human, then it arbitrarily transforms you to the wolf before you teleport. You "didn't read the rest" because I got you good.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
idiot, it's not the point.
clearly stated it was about how it incorporates all those abilities contextually as a transformation, instead of having to reequip items.
how is it possible to be quite so stupid, dude
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
That is the point because the mask transformations don’t require you to equip items except for playing music. It’s not like you can just howl on your own anyways. You need a stone to do it, and howling sucks
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
stupid, you have to equip the masks. leads to shit like that
>pause game >equip mask >unpause game >don mask
imagine if there were a stretch of the game that required switching between forms. it would be very apparent how cumbersome all this is, wouldn't it?
I did after I actually played it for the first time at a friend's house. I will admit I wasn't wild about it when I saw screenshots of that first trailer.
The fact so many anons have shitty opinions they repost every thread without any room to grow is so fricking boring. Hate these homosexuals. You know when you're typing them up that you're full of shit so why do you bother. Empty vapid existence.
Time for your daily dose of TRUTH, Toilet Piss gays! >linear as frick and tons of handholding >cringeworthy cutscenes >little to no innovation, doesn't even improve the formula from the N64 games >Link isn't as mobile as in previous games (Wind Waker Link could crouch and hide) >filler tear segments >tons of shallow mandatory minigames between dungeons >shitty tryhard atmosphere for grimdark Black folk >too much expository dialogue >artstyle that aged like milk >swimming feels awful >non-existent difficulty even by 3D Zelda standards >final boss was predictable and boring >dungeon design is basically on rails >worst looking bokoblins in the series >most enemies are beaten in pretty much the same way: look for an opening, rapidly hit the B button until it recovers from the assault and guards again, rinse, repeat >crappy story, failed to explain anything in a compelling manner >NPCs are soulless and not engaging, you can't even interact with most people in Castle Town >worst battle music in the series, which also ruined the Midna's Lament track >barely any sidequests >basically no interconnected areas except for Lake Hylia >Death Mountain Area is a fricking line with no branches or secret areas >LITERALLY A FRICKING LINE >item usage was limited >potions, fairies, upgrades, and the like are useless and offer no variety >babby tier puzzles (open the door by shooting an obviously placed eye switch, woooow) >dull soundtrack >both the overworld and villages are shallow and not dynamic >no free-roaming, gotta wait for the plot to explore other areas
They were desperate to legitimize their arrested development and corps were only too happy to oblige. Here's that 80s Jap with a $500 plastic sword made in China for $.05 material cost.
TOTK > MM > OOT > BOTW > WW > TP > SS
If you and I didn't disagree about the Gamecube games so much our tastes would largely be the same, which is kinda funny.
ah, well I followed the whole franchise from release to release and enjoyed the evolution of the narrative and story emphasis in conjunction with any gameplay experiments. WW is just a huge miss.
putting it above TP makes us enemies.
they were small, one note, far apart from one another, required late game items in a lot of cases, what's not to hate?
I could write a diatribe on why the game is bad. Islands are one part of that. It's the worst one. Just parsing it objectively, I've played through it several times, I know what it's Shit. I know why it needs a randomizer to make it even worthwhile.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
have you played the randomizer? how is it?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Wind Waker is the worst game in the franchise. With a randomizer it's one of the best. With a randomizer and multiplayer it's the best.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
what makes it so good
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
You can explore those items to find actually useful things? In multiplayer the discovery and exploration is exponentially palpable?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Do you memorize every treasure spot and sail around once you get the grappling hook?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Now doesn't Wind Waker sound like a fun little pirate treasure hunting game now?
imagine if the base game just had rupees everywhere.
imagine if Nintendo rereleased it and they cut out portion of the game that required that treasure.
lol get this, what if the rerelease sped up the boat so you didn't have to spend so much time sailing, and lmao and and it automatically set the direction of the wind wherever you sailed!
you would never have to use the wind waker again to do it.
The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker
(some people claim to like this game, and even more horrendously some people think it's one of the better games)
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
So what do you think about Wind Waker HD then
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
it was an acknowledgement by Nintendo that Wind Waker is a bad game.
it was a wasted opportunity change up the game.
it needs a reimagining, which is something randomzation does really.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Randomizers have been a blessing to Zelda games. With MM, it's particularly fun because circumstances can give you a chance to use some of MM's more esoteric and weirdly accounted-for details that wouldn't come up ordinarily in a first-time clear of an area.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I love the OOT randomizer so much. Its really fun to be able to leverage my knowledge of the game to progress. One of my favorites was when I had to boomerang the item that was in the windmill
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>use some of MM's more esoteric and weirdly accounted-for details
Any examples? I've never really gotten into randomizers for any game.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
some from the top of my head: >the Trading Post in West Clock Town has different prices at night when the main owner is working the Curiosity Shop, which means randomized shop items will also have different prices >the Gibdo Mask works to summon the first hookshot tree up to Ikana Canyon, like the Garo Mask >I've shared this one a lot recently, but Spring Water activates most light switches/blocks >certain cows can't be milked on Day 3 at Romani Ranch if you do Ranch Defense on Night 1, so you could have to end up waiting for a new cycle to check those cows for items in Rando with Epona's Song if you didn't check them before >during the Final Hours of Night 3, you can find the Swordsman's School teacher cowering in the back of his dojo in a hidden room behind a slashable wooden sign; this is useful for additional checks if you're doing a Potsanity Rando (i.e. where items can also appear in pots) >not really exclusive to Rando, but touching fire makes Deku Link and Zora Link void-out (plus ice for Zora), which can be a useful time saving tool in some areas to send you back to the entrance (without losing health since void-outs don't cause damage for some reason in MM) >not useful, but doing the Bremen Mask march will cause Igos du Ikana's two flunkies to stop fighting and march to your ocarina during battle (doesn't work on Igos himself though) >you probably know that the Gibdo Mask makes ReDeads dance, but the Captain's Hat and Garo Mask cause the same thing too >Fierce Deity Link's sword and Great Fairy's Sword also count for activating Owl Statues (in case you're doing a Rando where you have one of those items but not a proper sword yet), but interestingly, NEITHER get nullified by Blue Bubble curses >the platform layout to the Lens of Truth cave is different on each Day (and they're not there at all if you do the Fourth Day glitch)
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>the Trading Post in West Clock Town has different prices at night when the main owner is working the Curiosity Shop, which means randomized shop items will also have different prices
what the FRICK 24 years and i never notice this
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>the platform layout to the Lens of Truth cave is different on each Day
Weird.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I love the OOT randomizer so much. Its really fun to be able to leverage my knowledge of the game to progress. One of my favorites was when I had to boomerang the item that was in the windmill
that 2ship2harkinian cannot come quick enough
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
SOH was a godsend
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I love the OOT randomizer so much. Its really fun to be able to leverage my knowledge of the game to progress. One of my favorites was when I had to boomerang the item that was in the windmill
How do I into playing Zelda randomisers?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
sounds cool i might check it out sometime. hope i can get somebody to play it with me
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Meh, I enjoyed them but fair enough. I respect your opinion and do agree that the randomizer makes WW a thousand times better.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Howcould you possibly enjoy them. They're worse than shrines in Breath of the Wild, my dude.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
While that comparison may hold, it's completely in hindsight. WW's hidden grottos for example were exponentially more substantial than any of the same grottos from OoT or MM, even if they didn't quite reach BotW shrine level mechanics.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
damn the grottos in OoT were dogshit.
I wish I could mod the game my way.
Celda sent Nintendo into a damage control spiral and it took one of the greatest E3 demonstrations, ending with that, to reverse it. Zelda was back. Nintendo was back. The dark age of the Gamecube was over. A revolution was promised.
>Year is 2008, my introduction to Zeldas is the Zelda Wind Waker limited edition that includes OOT >Loved OOT >WW is a piece of shit >Loved TP >Hated SS, Loved pic-related >Hated BOTW, Loved Ys VIII >Ignored TOTK, will likely love Ys: X Wind Waker
Most TP fans actually have good taste and find themselves catered to in Soulsgames and such.
>modern Zelda fans are so gameplay-blind that they think one game can be a "clone" of another from a purely thematic standpoint with no acknowledge of mechanical or progression design
This only recently clicked with me, and this made the state of the Zelda games make a depressing amount of sense.
oot is pretty similar to alttp in over all design too, though not completely. that is to its benefit. you can do most adult dungeons out of order, contrary to popular belief
The wolf transformation is the most versatile in the franchise. It possesses 8 abilities that were relegated to items in previous games you needed to pause and equip in order to use. All of them are organically integrated with the form; it's Ludo.
I would rather equip a shovel than have to transform into a wolf and dig with my little paws, or equip the lens of truth than have to suffer through that weird filter. at least midna is cute
>oot is pretty similar to alttp in over all design too, though not completely. that is to its benefit. you can do most adult dungeons out of order, contrary to popular belief
That I agree with. People calling WW/TP/SS "OoT clones" is where I draw the line.
You're the moron posting about MM being open world slop, aren't you? GTFO.
>You're the moron posting about MM being open world slop, aren't you? GTFO.
No but I'm glad I still preemptively upset you so much.
>I would rather equip the paws then to just use my paws
because you're stupid because you're stupid >I would rather equip my eye sight then to use my eyes
because you're stupid
because you're stupid
stfu about midna you homosexual. you have no right, like the game and appreciate more about it, or kys
seething moron. I like midna and I think tp is a pretty good, but flawed game.
turning into a zora isn't Zelda
zora form improves the game and actually makes swimming enjoyable.
>oot is pretty similar to alttp in over all design too, though not completely. that is to its benefit. you can do most adult dungeons out of order, contrary to popular belief
That I agree with. People calling WW/TP/SS "OoT clones" is where I draw the line.
[...] >You're the moron posting about MM being open world slop, aren't you? GTFO.
No but I'm glad I still preemptively upset you so much.
The wolf transformation is the most versatile in the franchise. It possesses 8 abilities that were relegated to items in previous games you needed to pause and equip in order to use. All of them are organically integrated with the form; it's Ludo.
>My name is moron and I like pausing the game to equip items, it's a lot of fun. I really like it so much. I wish I could equip a black dick in my ass.
g-good luck with that,
I get what you're saying. It's an extremely cool puzzle/quest that unfortunately just leads to a couple of heart pieces at best. OoT is incredibly good at coming up with "grand mysteries"
You know what's cool about Ocarina of Time? you can't use half your equipment at any given time, depending on whether you're young or adult transformation.
I like that in order to transform you have to play a song then run forward to the set piece and press the action button. Then you need to play a song to warp back and run back to where you were.
It's a great game. It's the most goodest game ever conceived.
It just looks visually like what people wanted a Zelda game to look like. Wind Waker actually turned out to be the better game though. I'm sorry, Wind Waker.
>5 dungeons, wind temple is the only good one >endless boring sailing >islands that do nothing and are nothing >reefs >obnoxious story gating
no, but thats not to say that TP is great.
This. I actually like Twilight Princess's aesthetic aside from a few ugly meme characters I was probably more excited for this than Wind Waker but I ended up enjoying Wind Waker more. Even when you ignore OoT most of the other Zelda games just did it better.
Videogame graphics still had massive jumps between generations. The fans wanted back dark, edgy and "realistic" Zelda after WW was underwhelming.
Oot at that point was considered a masterpiece. Lord of the Rings was at it's peak popularity also so when fans were finally confirmed a dark, realistic fantasy game similar to Oot it got a kino reception. Regardless of how both WW and TP have aged.
Back then, all people in the West knew was Miyamoto's face, he was the Mario/Zelda/Nintendo guy to everyone here so they marketed the games as such. In reality he only supervised the first couple of Mario and Zelda games until it was swiftly handed off to other people. We didn't learn about Aonuma, Koizumi, Fujibayashi, etcs. Contributions until many years later. Pic related gives you an idea of how naive we were.
When was the last worthwhile "Ocarina-like" game that came out? Since BotW/TotK are clearly not the same kind of game. Have there been any at all since Skyward Sword and Darksiders 2?
BotW and TotK are a lot like OoT if you just stick to the suggested paths. Everyone who played these games by "going their own way" and then complained that it isn't linear just didn't listen to the game's suggestions. It can be linear if you want it to be.
TotK is a design mess that basically requires you to fast travel all the time, something I did very seldomly in BotW because the load times used to be too long and it was also immersion-breaking.
That doesn't even make sense. Even without fast travel it's much quicker and easier to get around in TotK than in BotW, not to mention that TotK is just a better game in almost every conceivable way.
Not really. MM also had incredibly quick ways to get around and nobody complained that those ruined the sense of adventure.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
They're totally different kinds of games.
Also what I'm talking about is not really the option to get around quickly, but the general design of the world. BotW encouraged you to kind of "play through", to commit to an area and explore it and then move on to the next area. The start of the game has a very natural flow of going from the Plateau, through the Dueling Peaks to your first stable, then Kakariko, then Hateno, and then most likely into the Zora's Domain. But the game world is set up so the player can have a good time regardless of where they choose to go.
TotK by comparison has a shitton of built-in backtracking and weird arbitrary content gating. You need to keep warping back to the new hub town. You need to keep warping back to the newspaper. You need to do the newspaper shit FIRST and then go to very specific stables to unlock all of the Great Fairies, whereas in the first game even if you went in a weird direction first you'd eventually find a Great Fairy, and one was available fairly early near Kakariko. If you don't start the newspaper shit you can't do ANY of the stable sidequests.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>If you don't start the newspaper shit you can't do ANY of the stable sidequests.
BotW actually has tons of this shit, lots of stuff is hard locked behind other things that can easily be missed, and in a way I respect it for having the balls to do that even if it goes too far sometimes (like being about to straight up miss Hetsu).
Twilight Princess is for me a good zelda Unfortunately, it has some faults which prevent
it from being at the same level of OOT the part with the wolf is redundant and becomes obsolete after Kakariko Village (but it's better than the pink rabbit from alttp)
and the fights against the Shadow Beast is also repetitive and quickly becomes boring apart from that everything in TP is better done than OOT and those who say the opposite has not played the game or they simply hate OOT
At the time OOT was the undisputed greatest game of all time if you asked any gamer 90% would say OOT, it was just the default answer. Nowadays I think it'd be like 40% at most
Would this OOT rehash be even half as beloved if it didn't have Midna? Not talking shit it's my favourite Zelda I belive it's OOT but better with great dungeons and the Twighlight ahesetic is awesome
The eternal popularity of OoT Link makes me think that Nintendo will come back to that sort of style again. They need somewhere to go now that BotW era is over.
I think so. But it really wouldn't be the same game. It's Twilight Princess and so much of the story and gameplay revolve around Midna. It's be almost like saying would people like Majora's mask without the masks
I think Midna could be replaced with Zelda trapped in the twilight realm, communing with Link via his shadow. That would make Zelda more prominent in the game, and would have an opportunity to fight shadow link !!
Midna's existence steals runtime from Zelda in my opinion. If I were to criticque TP, they all just come up on the narrative side of things.
If it were remade or something, you should be able to choose which member of the adventure league to travel with to their region, and have some more character development on the way. Two birds with a stone, more atmosphere & character, a bit of non-linearity in an otherwise straightforward game.
It was the next big Zelda game after Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, and with how successful both were, people were stoked for Twilight Princess especially with how well it was marketed and presented.
n64 gays have arrested development surpassing anyone who came before or after. similar only to ds2 gays. the sheer contrarianism they display believing their awkward first gen 3d bullshit is superior to the peak of 2d or games that came the generation after theirs is appalling. yes tp is the best zelda. hands down and it isnt even close. you will never convince these gays that the first game their zoomer asses played (ocarina of time or mario 64) isnt the best. as someone born in the mid 80s i cannot imagine feeling nostalgia for anything on the N64 or ps1 or any other console of that era.
>5 hr tutorial >bug hunting >wolf sections >Terrible pacing >Ganondorf was behind it all! >Just as easy as Wind Waker >Dull ugly version of OoT >Terrible Anime story >Useless items >Dungeons are glorified set pieces >Overworld is somehow worse than the N64 games.
I literally didn't buy a GC because of Wind Waker and I actually took a break from Nintendo in general. I was about 11 years old and it was the perfect time for me to really hate the cartoony ass graphics. I actually didn't even get a Wii until two years after TP came out when I started getting back into Nintendo shit, I was like 18 by then ironically but even 80 year olds were buying the Wii.
Reminder to get your redump here:
https://myrient.erista.me/files/Redump/Nintendo%20-%20Wii%20-%20NKit%20RVZ%20%5Bzstd-19-128k%5D/
Twilight Princess would have been instantly improved if we got more Zelink narrative. Aonuma knew it too, that's why they finally started adding a bunch of Zelink shit in the next game (too little too late)
TP has great dungeons and a great atmosphere, but the pacing is pretty bad and the world itself felt pretty contrived compared to OoT which felt more like an organic world put together.
In the end I still feel awkward about TP and if they decide to re-release it I'm kinda hoping for serious QoL or even straight up remade stuff to make it more enjoyable as a whole.
Also SS, despite overworld flaws, is a great Zelda game, I put it above TP and your (You)s won't change that fact.
well because the previous game was wind waker. people were mad because it was cel shaded and looked like a kiddy cartoon. nintend.rones were calling for blood (and a modern game that saw a return to the more "dark" and "mature" OoT graphical style) so when this shit came out it blew people's collective minds.
Twilight Princess fools people into thinking it's this grand, epic, mature, Zelda game when in reality it was a paint by the numbers Zelda game that retained most of Wind Waker's flaws. People like the idea of Twilight Princess not the actual game itself. The dungeons also fool players into thinking they are more complex than they actually are. TP killed traditional 3d Zelda and Skyward Sword buried it.
You never hold more than 1 key at a time in TP. Compare that to the dungeons in A link to the past where you would hold multiple keys at once. You had to be aware of the layout of the dungeons in ALTTP. You had to figure out which way to proceed.
Ocarina of Time also had this. Forest Temple and Water Temple forced you to pay attention to your surroundings. And while the rest of the dungeons are linear in Ocarina of Time, the game constantly threw new types of puzzle at you to compensate. For example, the puzzles revolving around lens of truth in the shadow temple.
There is no progression for the dungeons in TP. The first dungeon plays exactly like the last one.
Zoomers don't remember 9/11.
But even if we go with your metric, an 8-year-old wouldn't understand the significance and wouldn't be as hyped as someone in his teens for a gritty Zelda that looked like LOTR, since he would've been 5 when Wind Waker or 'Celda' was announced.
It’s sad. Nowadays zoomers don’t get really hyped over games. They just consume then move onto the next product right around the corner. They will never understand how magical moments like this was.
they wanted the grimdark dudebro aesthetic after they shitted on the kino that was Wind Waker, only to realize that they were recieving a hot turd out of shartendo's butthole fresh from the source, and Midna, my beloved
because it didn't look like a gay gay game like wind waker and minish cap. we like stuff that is badass, not homosexual. how is this hard for people to understand?
I replayed this and OoT back to back. Twilight Princess is objectively just the better game. Dunno why contrarians keep downplaying TP's greatness so much.
People were expecting a Zelda game akin to the E3 tech demo since the early 00s. WW was widely shat on because it didn't apply to the ongoing "more realizm!!" bandwagon, no matter that it was technologically and gameplay-wise superior game.
In the end, TP was super rushed, half-baked clusterfrick. It didn't even have a plot written, 6 months prior the release.
Incorrect.
TP is by far THE worst mainline Zelda game in every conceivable manner. 8.8 was very generous.
TP is certainly among the worst, but it's certainly not worse than Skyward Sword. Also not worse than PH or Spirit Tracks if you count those as mainline titles
>counting ds spinoff as mainline
Dumbass, unless they are a REAL Zelda game, not some lame shit like 4 swords or triforce heroes or ST/PH, then they are spinoffs.
Also I want to say that even as one of the ones who did not like wind wakers art style I feel that Nintendo was pushing it way too hard. Minish cap, 4 swords, spirit tracks, phantom hourglass, and other side games besides all had that Zelda look while the previous games did not have a settled style. I would have been just fine with Zelda having a few toon looking games but they tried to turn it also into the established look of the game.
The only reason we even consider there to be "non-mainline" Zeldas is because Minish and FSA were mediocre and the DS games were trash. Nobody ever acted like Awakening or the Oracle games "didn't count."
>TP is by far THE worst mainline Zelda game in every conceivable manner. 8.8 was very generous.
It has a literal fertility goddess as a co-star and a cool nightmarish atmosphere. You have awful gay taste.
no you didnt moron and if you did you'd know how fricking dog shit the temple in the sky is and how bloated the overworld is and how trash hyrule's castle is. i could go on but i've already reacted to your bait enough
Someone failed to double clawshot???
>wolf shit
>story flags
>story minigames
TP is slop compared to the purity of OoT's pacing and narrative presentation
Yep don’t know what the frick they were thinking with the wolf garbage.
Probably going for something like MM, except the alternative forms and their challenges in MM were actually fun
The backlash against the wolf form seems like it's coming from people who don't understand the Zelda series at all.
Turning into an animal when going into a parallel world was a concept established in LttP. TP just took this concept further and even gave you a bunch of unique npc dialog that you can only listen to in wolf form.
thematically appropriate != fun to play
there's a reason the rabbit segment of alttp didn't eat up a third of the game
>Turning into an animal when going into a parallel world was a concept established in LttP
in LttP you're helpless as a bunny. You get an item almost immediately (before you ever go into the dark world proper) to stop yourself from turning into a rabbit. Being a wolf in TP just isn't fun. There's nothing to misunderstand. It just sucks.
the rabbit segment takes all of 30 seconds too at that.
The wolf combat is pretty boring, but it's over very quickly if you use Midna's ability on everything.
But the other abilities that you get in wolf form are pretty standard Zelda stuff.
Wolf-sense is just like the Lens of Truth in OoT.
The scripted jumps with the wolf are just a faster way of traversing.
The music howling minigame is literally just the Ocarina mechanic again, but more guided.
Getting alternate dialog from NPCs in wolf form is like what some of the masks did for you in OoT and MM. Wolf-running is also nearly just as fast as using a horse and actually preferrable most of the time when you have the ability to freely transform between wolf and human form.
What is it about wolf form that is so "unfun" to you exactly? It just sounds like you're a moron that thinks Zelda gameplay is only fun if you're playing as an elf.
It was the first major moment to show that Aonuma's understanding of the Zelda series was surface level.(and still is). He thought that just throwing a grittier and less cartoony coat of paint on top of a sealess Wind Waker is all that OoTgays wanted out of an "OoT2". He had no idea what made OoT such an enduring classic that many people still maintained as the series' golden standard of the series even well into the GCN era.
And now, he thought that just making BotW non-linear and open world was enough to make it a "callback" to Zelda 1, ignoring that Zelda 1 had item gating, an intended dungeon order, and required you to beat all of them to enter Ganon's Lair. Hell, Aonuma never beat Zelda 1, so him trying to claim that BotW is a callback to it is all the more laughable.
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/27743/eiji-aonuma-never-completed-zelda-1
Why is it that everyone that posts this pic has the worst opinions ever and shouldn't be allowed to contribute to any topic
Sorry I insulted your lord and master Aonuma 🙁
There are valid critiques to be levied at Aonuma and he is hardly my favorite Zelda director. Yours is not one of them.
He failed to grasp Zelda so hard that he turned it into a different type of game entirely and tried comparing it to the first entry in the series (that he never beat). How the frick can you call his understanding of the series anything more than surface level?
It's pretty obvious to see where BotW's inspiration lies in regards to LoZ, and again, nowhere is it stated by anyone involved in that game that they tried to make it exactly like the first. I could go into even further specifics about Aonuma's influence over the franchise as a whole and how he was largely responsible for what made OoT as good as it was, or how Zelda even from its NES days was never developed with some "core unchanging identity" in mind, but judging from your posts, you're clearly not capable of having a nuanced discussion about this sort of thing so I won't even bother.
>he thought that just making BotW non-linear and open world was enough to make it a "callback" to Zelda 1, ignoring that Zelda 1 had item gating, an intended dungeon order, and required you to beat all of them to enter Ganon's Lair
You're being pointlessly reductive here. "Callback" does not imply "emulation" and BotW doesn't even attempt to be exactly like LoZ, as it also borrows a ton of elements from later games in the series.
this but unironically and I could write paragraphs about why it's true and I've refuted dozens of contrarian anons on Ganker video games in prior threads
You can't refute opinions.
Yeah you can, people have shit opinions that aren't logical. It can be as simple as pointing out how underlining irrational their opinion on something is.
Like look, most people on this board actually say things that are objectively false about a game, and try to pass it off as an opinion. So shit like that is easy.
I'm sure you could but I'm going to assume you were born after 1994 and like it because of nostalgia.
totally, and it makes sense considering you played Ocarina when you were young and like it because of nostalgia, so that's what you think about everything.
>le best game is the one you played first!
TP was my 6th game
I grew up with gameboy zeldas, did go back to emulate OoT until high school. TP was a boring slog, just very mediocre experience throughout except the dungeon where you get the top. Gameboy zeldas are still the best to me but OoT is leagues better than TP
I liked the snow mansion dungeon a lot but in general the game feels really lacking when you compare it directly to OoT 3D.
the motion controls alone elevate it, let alone everything else. great music, great dungeons, great combat even on horseback, great world building, great character development, better telegraphy, better item utility, there's not a single thing it does worse. because need I remind you there's not a whole lot to discover when exploring in OoT. and doing dungeons in different arrangements on a replay adds nothing in reality.
the problem with OoT nostalgia, is that nostalgiagays wont reappraise the game and figure out the shortcomings of the game. I could type up a paragraph on why the game wont hold up now.
>the motion controls alone elevate it
Actually that's one of the things that really turned me off from it, and it's the one thing Skyward Sword did better. I think it's a blessing they released this on the GameCube so you don't have to deal with the motion controls.
>Character development
Not even. Many of them feel like retreads of OoT characters that forced themselves into the story.
>Better telegraphy
What do you mean by this, messages over long distances, coding, what?
>Better item utility
No way, there are some fun items in TP but they're vastly underused.
>There's not a lot to discover in OoT
OoT's exploration demonstrates what's so appealing about Zelda IMO, there's always secrets and conversations and world context to discover. TP's story railroads you so hard with cutscenes and linearity that there's barely any of that.
>OoT nostalgia
You keep saying this but I don't even consider it my favorite Zelda game, I liked MM more.
>OoT's exploration demonstrates what's so appealing about Zelda IMO, there's always secrets and conversations and world context to discover.
TP doesn't have any less of this stuff than OoT, and if you think it does you just didn't play it.
>because need I remind you there's not a whole lot to discover when exploring in OoT
ROTFLMAO
TP has less to find in its overly bloated world in every possible way. It's TPgays who are running on nostalgia
>TP has less to find in its overly bloated world in every possible way. It's TPgays who are running on nostalgia
Objectively wrong. It has MORE of everything than OoT had to find. More heart pieces, more bottles, way more minigames...
I guess the one thing OoT has more of is its 100 gold skulltulas, which the TP equivalent is its 60 poe souls, but even that is made up for with the bug quest which doesn't have an equivalent in OoT.
TP also has the hidden combat moves which OoT doesn't have an equivalent of.
>which the TP equivalent is its 60 poe souls, but even that is made up for with the bug quest which doesn't have an equivalent in OoT
LOLWUT. The two combined still add up to less and both are lamer and shittier quests, with bugs just obviously sitting there out in the open, while poes are just scattered around so that you see them for ages away, but only if you wait for nightfall.
TP significantly has fewer optional major items. There are no magical items (ALL of which were individually optional in OoT) and Epona is simultaneously forced on you while being far less useful to actually explore with outside of designated sequences.
>There are no magical items (ALL of which were individually optional in OoT)
I would say the equivalent of this in TP is the combat moves that you learn from the Hero's Shade. Those are all optional, and they actually have great utility in combat especially with the Cave of Ordeals (which I forgot, that's ANOTHER great thing TP has which OoT has no equivelent of).
Epona is required for several parts of the game which made her have MORE use in TP. You could completely skip Epona in OoT and you'd miss out on nothing other than Lon-Lon Ranch minigame and the poe-hunting quest.
>LAMER than gold spiders
no
Absolutely yes. Skultulas are a well designed collectable that you can try to narrow down your search for progressively by picking up various clues. Marks can appear on your map to indicate if they are in a given area, you hear the sounds as you approach them, you can deliberately switch to night time to hunt for them etc.
Why do you constantly post this image which shows the opposite. TP barely has non-trivial shit in it.
>great dungeons
it has braindead dungeon design, and the item utility is a joke. once you leave the dungeon theres like 3 places to use the items
>I could write paragraphs about why it's true
>Just lists a bunch of basic empty platitudes of "It's biggerer and betterer and everything-er" without further explanation
Typical TP tard.
They're both ultimately underwhelming. OoT is too barebones compared to its successors, TP has too much mandatory setpiece/minigame bullshit.
BotW fixed the series, deal w/ it nerds.
It fixed it if you like ubishit I guess
Not an argument. It is, in many important ways, the anti-ubishit game.
>It is, in many important ways, the anti-ubishit game
....by being an ubishit game?
Not an argument.
>TP has too much mandatory setpiece/minigame bullshit
BotW is nothing BUT setpiece/minigame bullshit. If by fixed the series you mean that you can skip them all, then sure you're right.
Now you're just talking out of your ass. There is almost no setpiece or minigame in BotW (outside of maybe those short pre-DB segments) that feel divorced from the core mechanics. TP's entire playthrough is making you do shit that doesn't feel in line with its main gameplay loop at all.
Koroks are minigames. Many shrines are minigames. Those are the most numerous types of content in the game. I think we're using different definitions of setpiece though.
We're using different definitions of minigames too. I'm just talking about the stuff that TP forces players to do between dungeons that don't involve the central mechanics of the game which is very different than BotW's shrines and koroks. That shit is beyond annoying and is to a large degree why people say that TP has so much filler, even though they're kinda bad at articulating why.
TP is paced like shit, and the alternate gameplay style is just trash.
That being said OoT has some of the worst dungeon designs in the series and has a paperthink story with characters that are barely two dimensional, so it's really pick your poison.
The Wii U version of TP is probly the better than OoT.
>worst dungeon designs in the series and has a paperthink story with characters that are barely two dimensional, so it's really pick your poison.
>worst dungeon designs in the series
wrong
>paperthin story with characters that are barely two dimensional
it does what it needs to
it has good theming/atmosphere, the wireframe of the dungeons are babbybrain tier. you like them because of nostalgia.
No I like them because they are fun.
>OoT has some of the worst dungeon designs in the series
What shit taste. Like what the frick else is it competing with? WW dungeons are terrible, Skyward sword as a whole is dogshit, and the BOTW era """""dungeons""""" can't even be called as such. TP ones are good, but only the second half of the game.
zelda games are mostly bad, i won't argue with you there.
>paperthin story with characters
this is nearly every zelda game, honestly. OoT just does the absolute best with the archetypes it presents.
There's a reason that the zelda franchise is still copying Oot's Impa, Ruto, Darunia, Saria, Ganondorf and various other characters. Although simple compared to non-zelda, non-nintendo franchises in its writing and characters, it remains the foundation for the rest of the franchise (to a fault even, since I want to stress that the Zelda franchise really hasn't surpassed the writing of then N64 games.)
homie Impa was in the first 2 games' manual.
The 7 sages are nothing original they came straight from ALTTP. Link's Awakening was the first game to truly flesh out characters
I judge a Zelda game by how close it is to A Link to the Past (the quintessential Zelda game), and in that respect OoT and TP are both close but OoT is closer.
>TP
>close to LttP
>focuses on dungeons and unique items
>has a dark world (of sorts)
>Link transforms into an animal (LttP Link is pure so he's a bunny, TP Link is rougher so he's a wolf)
>Hyrule Castle is explorable
>"it was Ganon all along" twist
>two act structure
It's sure as hell closer than Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, Skyward Sword, Breath of the Wild, and Breath of the Wild 1.1.
>"it was Ganon all along" twist
we knew it was ganon at least as soon as we get to the dark world in alttp iirc
Yeah and the game reveals Ganondorf in TP as soon as you beat the Arbiter's Grounds which is the first dungeon of the second act.
TP and LTTP feel like the quintessential games in the franchise. They both do Zelda flawlessly, from two different dimensions/camera perspectives. OOT is pretty dated, and its claims to fame was being LTTP in 3D. However we don't need 3D LTTP. We never really did, it was just mind blowing at the time.
TP is a poorly paced game with a lot of stupid stuff tacked on. OOT is great.
TP is immaculate in design, the transformation is the most versatile one, and OOT is barebones and I cannot replay it anymore.
The wolf transformation sucks hard. I'd rather just stay a human the entire time and not have to hunt bugs. The actual dungeons are good, but getting to them sucks 9/10 times.
that part was pretty cool
OoT objectively looks like shit compared to TP if nothing else.
OOT looks better in context
Just don't look to closely at the abstract horror that is all the NPCs.
moronic take, every game has better graphics than one made even half a decade earlier with rare and hilarious exceptions
nintendo was kind of cutesy looking and behind the times for the most part, twilight princess was the first zelda and one of the first main nintendie games that really had that realistic + edgy look to it
wolf parts suck, too linear, items are unitaskers
fishing is good tho
TP is quite literally OoT2 but it you take them at their time of release, OoT is absolutely the better game for all the shit it introduced and the massive influence it had on games in general.
The mere fact that people had to take time to explain what the Z-targeting/Lock-on was and worked gives a good idea of how it introduced elements that are now considered standards to most people.
That's kinda like how BotW is a massive influence to games and future Zelda titles because now we have to explain to morons how exploration works.
We had a lot of extremely successful games with exploration before BotW but to stay on the Z-Targeting example, I cannot think of a single game before OoT that had a targeting system that also altered your movements like OoT's does, the only one I can think of before 2000 is Soul Reaver but it still released like half a year after OoT.
Mega Man Legends had a lock on that sets the camera right behind the player and centers it on the enemy, but you couldn't move while using it iirc.
In MML2 the lock on works like Zelda.
Unironically, because most people played the much shittier Wii version of the game. The gamecube version plays so much better and the entire fricking game world isn't mirrored
it might be a better version of OoT, ill take your word for it. but back when it released i had a hard time caring about the game and its world because it felt like a clone. it also had a boring color pallete and the next gen boring filter on everything. Midna is the only thing that sticks out from the game. im usually pretty good at remembering the world of games i play, and twilight princess is one that i remember almost none of. it was featureless and plain.
It felt gritty, which was new and interesting for a Zelda game.
TP rides OoT's nuts too much to the point of being detrimental. That's a sentiment that was very commonly shared when it was released. Lots of people even considered it a downgrade because many aspects of the game short of the Dungeons were either carbon copies of content you'll find in OoT or objective downgrades from them. The story pacing was worse, the game had multiple gameplay points that throttled progression, and on top of the bosses being worse, the final battles copying Ganondorf just gave players that still considered OoT to be the best game something to compare it to. Old Man Ganondorf awkwardly wobbling along a dusty old field pales in comparison to Ganon's execution in OoT.
If they let the game be its own game, it could've been one of the best titles in the series, if not THE best. It instead spent all of its time in OoT's shadow.
TP is cool to hang out in, but the content on offer is pretty mediocre. Worst hub out of the Zeldas with a hub, the overworld is a formality, the small amount of side content that exists is pretty ass, the writing is overall pretty crappy, and it only has a few good dungeons.
Better than most action adventure games, but one of the weakest "real" Zelda games.
they didn't know it was gonna be shit
Wind Waker was singlehandedly responsible for giving Nintendo the BABY SHIT FOR BABIES reputation during the Gamecube era.
And Wind Waker turned out to be one of the most mature Nintendo games ironically.
Only because of Koizumi's limited input on the story. Again proving he's better for directing the Zelda franchise than Aonuma/Fujibayashi
Aonuma is the problem. Fujibayashi and Koizumi would be a dream team to get Zelda back on track
>Only because of Koizumi's limited input on the story
Are we still pretending Wind Waker has a good story because of le man of coveting wind says one slightly deep-sounding line in the entire game?
The story doesn't matter, the dungeons suck which makes it the worst 3D Zelda that isn't nu-Zelda. You fools don't seem to understand that the most important thing about a Zelda game is the actual LEVELS. The in between dungeons segments are merely fluff. It's why I despise the direction nu-Zelda has gone in. TP is solid enough, cause the dungeons are good, I can overlook the in between bullshit being annoying.
Wind Waker is a much better game than TP. Dungeons and all. You just have bad taste
WW's dungeons are terrible.
>TP
>good dungeons
Holy shit you can't be serious
Wind Waker was released in an era where Jak and Daxter and Ratched & Clank came and took everything.
They just copied the childlike artsyle and made it more toon.
It was 2000s style,what was popular, especially with kids(like me)
Zelda wasnt competing with Devil May Cry ffs,of course it needed to have that artstyle.
>Boomers
Millenials
They spent the entire GameCube lifecycle being treated like stupid grade schoolers with the worst gwafics after being loyal Nintendo buyers.
Overall the funny thing is GameCube was far from the weakest gen six console. That honor goes to PS2 and Dreamcast. But the reality is none of those tryhards I wanted to have approval from in leu of my parents apathy stayed gamers. They all moved on to xbawks and 360 then got emasculated by their own shit and went back to watching football and the occasional mobile game while streaming game grumps in the background.
T. Millenial who was there.
Also as an addendum even when I wanted to like wind waker hearing it had way less dungeons again after MM cut the number down made me sad. Honestly I feel like Zelda dungeons are the real meat of why I want to play these games, but the addition of too much dialogue really tanks that hard. I think if Nintendo ever goes back they need to do a trailsod/Metroid prime style in media real where you take down a dungeon the moment you load up the game. Then they can introduce players to the world.
Wrong.
Aonuma never wanted to make twilight princess.
>PS2
Are you actually fricking stupid or something?
Are you? PS2 is worse than the game cube. It's no contest.
A lot of people didn't like the toony graphics of wind waker so the people who liked Ocarina of Time liked it
They had their heads shoved in toilets for liking Wind Waker and thought that Zelda being serious meant they could like it again. Unfortunately for them, Nintendo Wii.
Remember that this was still a time when people still saw darker and grittier graphics as the end-all-be-all, and there were a lot of people who were genuinely disappointed by wind waker's graphical choices (despite it being beloved for that aspect nowadays).
Wind Waker poisoned the series to always have that gay cel shaded style
?si=l6QCxj1nejwAS19u
I was expecting something like this after an article in Nintendo Power. WW wasnt what I was hoping for, and I bet a ton of edgy teens like me thought the same thing.
REMEMBER, THIS IS ALSO WHAT WE WERE SHOWN AT SPACEWORLD 2001 AND WHAT FRICKING EVERYONE WAS WAITING FOR; OOT WITH BETTER GRAPHICS!!!!!
Frick all you dumbasses, THAT IS WHAT WE WERE LOOKING FORWARD TO IN 2003! MORE REALER ZELDERS!
The announcement yes
The game no
Aonuma is a hack
This. It looked like the direct sequel to OoT that everyone wanted, and the shift away from WW's cel shading into something like an updated OoT artstyle was perfect. Then the game came out and it was complete shit. People can hate Skyward Sword all they want, but Zelda started to go downhill at TP and I'm tired of pretending otherwise
the downfall started with WW thoughever
the game is good
MM > OoT > TP > WW > SS
Because Wind Waker was wack as frick and people were starved for an actual cool Zelda game again. Fricking done, you don't need any more information than that. People were so disappointed by WW that TP is what they needed.
Are we back to hating WW now? Has any Zelda game had such a flip flopping reputation as WW?
>hated before it came out for toon graphics
>loved it on release
>hated it years later
>cult following leading up to the re-release
>back to hating it again
pretty sure the "we" you're referring to are just different people with different opinions, some people never liked WW, mostly those who were above the age of 15 upon its release and still seethe about it
it's because WW is a mess.
People hate the art style.
People love the art style.
People realize that the art style is the least of the game's problems and its issues are rooted in the gameplay/progression/etc
Wait, you actually get your opinions from Ganker?
Why are people like you so incapable of understanding nuance? Is it legitimately autism? Sincerely asking not trying to be rude. This is like second grade level stuff here, the ability to understand that different people hold different opinions regardless of what a consensus may be seen as
People were still pent-up after the spaceworld trailer ended up as Wind Waker
Even though i respect TP less, i understand the necessity for it, there was a lot of context riding on a "mature" followup to MM, an already dark game, promising that high definition Ganondorf fight
OH MY GAAAAAAAAAAWD IS THAT PETTER GRIFFIN IN FORNITE
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH IM GOING INSANE Black person MAN SAVE ME FROM THE BACKROOMS
because it's a shit game. it lifted the feel of shadow of the colossus, combat is piss easy, wolf link is just a glorified QTE press a to jump shit and the plot doesn't change the world in any meaningful way. as far as Hyrule and the people are concerned, ganondorf came back and died the same day.
It had a lot of hype because it was supposed to be the "mature" gamecube zelda game that we wanted the Zelda game after OoT and MM. In reality it's just a pretty good game, nothing amazing. The 8.8 is generous, I'd say 8.0. Midna is by far best girl in the whole series though.
8.8 would be generous for MM and OoT. those games are not as good as they're purported to be, and time is not doing them any favors now.
>time is not doing them any favors now
Compared to what
Fortnite
What in MM and OoT didn't age well to you?
switching between forms in both games are eggregious.
restocking your items every time cycle is terrible.
the dungeons which were good for that era are now too basic.
iron boots being an equipable.
bunnyhood being a face button.
all these games need reimaginings, WW, MM, OOT, they're stuck aging rapidly.
new games come out, and there's evermore less reason to revisit them.
you only have to switch like 3 times in oot. switching between forms in mm is literally a button press
SS isn't worthwhile
>pause game
>equip mask
>unpause game
>don mask
imagine if there were a stretch of the game that required switching between forms. it would be very apparent how cumbersome all this is, wouldn't it?
>SS isn't worthwhile
SS HD is. Stop being nitpicky. If this is your favorite game genre it's still a great play.
Its not being nit picky. I just don't like Skyward Sword.
can't argue with that.
Holy shit, we've now gotten to the point where the Skyward Sword babies are old enough to post on 4chin.
Your shitty game will always be remembered as a blight on the franchise, including by the developers themselves. Remember that you scum.
>SS isn't worthwhile
It is to me and it always was.
>switching between forms in both games are eggregious.
Damn. What does that make the wolf transformation then?
>restocking your items every time cycle is terrible.
Skill issue. You only need to restock what you need at the time. The game is all about time management and organization. (Also reminder: EVERY Zelda game makes you restock your items on a regular basis, some making you go even more out of your way due to the way the maps are set up. It's just part of being an adventure game where you use items for everything.)
>the dungeons which were good for that era are now too basic.
I don't know what you mean by this. Every Zelda game on after aside from the wild games follow just about the same puzzle format, but WW and TP have some of the most linear and basic dungeons in the series.
>iron boots being an equipable.
Probably the only valid complaint for OoT but it's fixed in the remake.
>bunnyhood being a face button.
Yikes. Any more hair splitting Arin?
>What does that make the wolf transformation then?
the most versatile transformation in the franchise
ohhhh damn, skibbity
no but really I'm probably not gonna read the rest, I cannot stand greenposting things piece by piece with a blatantly unselfaware comment on each line. learn to type up a paragraph that concisely communicates a coherent point.
each of the mm transformations are just as if not more versatile than wolf link
the Wolf does 8 different things. none of the MM transformations does 8 different things. that's what I mean, the wolf provides an organic reason behind abilities that in other games forced you to pause and reequip things.
I get it you like Zora swimming. You flail like a dolphin.
I get it you hate the changes to the swimming in the 3DS version.
you wont be able to appretiate something like the race against the beaver on 3DS, where you have to hit pots in addition to maintaining a lead.
akin to collecting the silver coins in Diddy Kong Racing while finishing 1st place.
list the 8 things
playing songs
warping
faster movement
removing dirt
burrowing through walls
seeing invisible things
talking to animals
learning and following scents
leaping to far flung platforms
grappling switches
I might be forgetting one, but why do I need to name them for you. Have you played the game? the wolf transformation does a lot, and accounts for lots of things.
>playing songs
>warping
both of these are stretches that dont inherently require being a wolf, the game just restricts you to wolf form for performing those actions
>faster movement
true
>removing dirt
>burrowing through walls
these are the same function
>seeing invisible things
true
>talking to animals
this is basically a non factor. it does this but I couldn't think of it off the top of my head when thinking about what the wolf form actually does.
>learning and following scents
true
>leaping to far flung platforms
true
>grappling switches
true, but this didnt have to be a wolf thing
even if i take all of what you say at face value the mask transformations do the same amount of things
deku link can
>hop on water
>faster movement speed
>warp
>play songs
>fly
>drop deku nuts like bombs
>burrow into flowers to fly into those CAD CUAG enemies
>shoot bubbles
>spin
#
Deku Link can also paralyze enemies which is something the others can't do.
>both of these are stretches that dont inherently require being a wolf,
they literally require you to be transformed into a wolf
I ain't reading the rest if this is how low the bar is off the bat dude.
thats twice this thread someone has said
>im not reading the rest of this
both of those things IN GAME require you to transform into a wolf, but the programmers did not have to tie those things into the wolf form. That is what I meant. Teleportation is something you can select as a human, then it arbitrarily transforms you to the wolf before you teleport. You "didn't read the rest" because I got you good.
idiot, it's not the point.
clearly stated it was about how it incorporates all those abilities contextually as a transformation, instead of having to reequip items.
how is it possible to be quite so stupid, dude
That is the point because the mask transformations don’t require you to equip items except for playing music. It’s not like you can just howl on your own anyways. You need a stone to do it, and howling sucks
stupid, you have to equip the masks. leads to shit like that
we're done here.
You can teleport as a human.
because shitwaker was ugly and trash
Nobody wanted Wind Waker.
And yet it's better than Twilight Princess.
Wind Waker is the absolute worst fricking one in the franchise.
I did after I actually played it for the first time at a friend's house. I will admit I wasn't wild about it when I saw screenshots of that first trailer.
The fact so many anons have shitty opinions they repost every thread without any room to grow is so fricking boring. Hate these homosexuals. You know when you're typing them up that you're full of shit so why do you bother. Empty vapid existence.
Time for your daily dose of TRUTH, Toilet Piss gays!
>linear as frick and tons of handholding
>cringeworthy cutscenes
>little to no innovation, doesn't even improve the formula from the N64 games
>Link isn't as mobile as in previous games (Wind Waker Link could crouch and hide)
>filler tear segments
>tons of shallow mandatory minigames between dungeons
>shitty tryhard atmosphere for grimdark Black folk
>too much expository dialogue
>artstyle that aged like milk
>swimming feels awful
>non-existent difficulty even by 3D Zelda standards
>final boss was predictable and boring
>dungeon design is basically on rails
>worst looking bokoblins in the series
>most enemies are beaten in pretty much the same way: look for an opening, rapidly hit the B button until it recovers from the assault and guards again, rinse, repeat
>crappy story, failed to explain anything in a compelling manner
>NPCs are soulless and not engaging, you can't even interact with most people in Castle Town
>worst battle music in the series, which also ruined the Midna's Lament track
>barely any sidequests
>basically no interconnected areas except for Lake Hylia
>Death Mountain Area is a fricking line with no branches or secret areas
>LITERALLY A FRICKING LINE
>item usage was limited
>potions, fairies, upgrades, and the like are useless and offer no variety
>babby tier puzzles (open the door by shooting an obviously placed eye switch, woooow)
>dull soundtrack
>both the overworld and villages are shallow and not dynamic
>no free-roaming, gotta wait for the plot to explore other areas
90% of these apply to every single zelda game, and that's a fact.
And 100% of them apply to TP.
BOOM BOOM WAHOO!
>Not HUH HUH HIYAH!
wasted
Darker and edgier, literally had to be there to get it
They were desperate to legitimize their arrested development and corps were only too happy to oblige. Here's that 80s Jap with a $500 plastic sword made in China for $.05 material cost.
TP is my second favorite 3D Zelda. Maybe 1st.
TP > TOTK > MM > SS > BOTW > OOT
TOTK > MM > OOT > BOTW > WW > TP > SS
If you and I didn't disagree about the Gamecube games so much our tastes would largely be the same, which is kinda funny.
ah, well I followed the whole franchise from release to release and enjoyed the evolution of the narrative and story emphasis in conjunction with any gameplay experiments. WW is just a huge miss.
putting it above TP makes us enemies.
Why didn't you enjoy the islands, anon? I thought they were pretty fun to explore and each one felt distinct enough to me outside of the reefs.
they were small, one note, far apart from one another, required late game items in a lot of cases, what's not to hate?
I could write a diatribe on why the game is bad. Islands are one part of that. It's the worst one. Just parsing it objectively, I've played through it several times, I know what it's Shit. I know why it needs a randomizer to make it even worthwhile.
have you played the randomizer? how is it?
Wind Waker is the worst game in the franchise. With a randomizer it's one of the best. With a randomizer and multiplayer it's the best.
what makes it so good
You can explore those items to find actually useful things? In multiplayer the discovery and exploration is exponentially palpable?
Do you memorize every treasure spot and sail around once you get the grappling hook?
Now doesn't Wind Waker sound like a fun little pirate treasure hunting game now?
imagine if the base game just had rupees everywhere.
imagine if Nintendo rereleased it and they cut out portion of the game that required that treasure.
lol get this, what if the rerelease sped up the boat so you didn't have to spend so much time sailing, and lmao and and it automatically set the direction of the wind wherever you sailed!
you would never have to use the wind waker again to do it.
The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker
(some people claim to like this game, and even more horrendously some people think it's one of the better games)
So what do you think about Wind Waker HD then
it was an acknowledgement by Nintendo that Wind Waker is a bad game.
it was a wasted opportunity change up the game.
it needs a reimagining, which is something randomzation does really.
Randomizers have been a blessing to Zelda games. With MM, it's particularly fun because circumstances can give you a chance to use some of MM's more esoteric and weirdly accounted-for details that wouldn't come up ordinarily in a first-time clear of an area.
I love the OOT randomizer so much. Its really fun to be able to leverage my knowledge of the game to progress. One of my favorites was when I had to boomerang the item that was in the windmill
>use some of MM's more esoteric and weirdly accounted-for details
Any examples? I've never really gotten into randomizers for any game.
some from the top of my head:
>the Trading Post in West Clock Town has different prices at night when the main owner is working the Curiosity Shop, which means randomized shop items will also have different prices
>the Gibdo Mask works to summon the first hookshot tree up to Ikana Canyon, like the Garo Mask
>I've shared this one a lot recently, but Spring Water activates most light switches/blocks
>certain cows can't be milked on Day 3 at Romani Ranch if you do Ranch Defense on Night 1, so you could have to end up waiting for a new cycle to check those cows for items in Rando with Epona's Song if you didn't check them before
>during the Final Hours of Night 3, you can find the Swordsman's School teacher cowering in the back of his dojo in a hidden room behind a slashable wooden sign; this is useful for additional checks if you're doing a Potsanity Rando (i.e. where items can also appear in pots)
>not really exclusive to Rando, but touching fire makes Deku Link and Zora Link void-out (plus ice for Zora), which can be a useful time saving tool in some areas to send you back to the entrance (without losing health since void-outs don't cause damage for some reason in MM)
>not useful, but doing the Bremen Mask march will cause Igos du Ikana's two flunkies to stop fighting and march to your ocarina during battle (doesn't work on Igos himself though)
>you probably know that the Gibdo Mask makes ReDeads dance, but the Captain's Hat and Garo Mask cause the same thing too
>Fierce Deity Link's sword and Great Fairy's Sword also count for activating Owl Statues (in case you're doing a Rando where you have one of those items but not a proper sword yet), but interestingly, NEITHER get nullified by Blue Bubble curses
>the platform layout to the Lens of Truth cave is different on each Day (and they're not there at all if you do the Fourth Day glitch)
>the Trading Post in West Clock Town has different prices at night when the main owner is working the Curiosity Shop, which means randomized shop items will also have different prices
what the FRICK 24 years and i never notice this
>the platform layout to the Lens of Truth cave is different on each Day
Weird.
that 2ship2harkinian cannot come quick enough
SOH was a godsend
How do I into playing Zelda randomisers?
sounds cool i might check it out sometime. hope i can get somebody to play it with me
Meh, I enjoyed them but fair enough. I respect your opinion and do agree that the randomizer makes WW a thousand times better.
Howcould you possibly enjoy them. They're worse than shrines in Breath of the Wild, my dude.
While that comparison may hold, it's completely in hindsight. WW's hidden grottos for example were exponentially more substantial than any of the same grottos from OoT or MM, even if they didn't quite reach BotW shrine level mechanics.
damn the grottos in OoT were dogshit.
I wish I could mod the game my way.
Play more Zelda games, bro.
I've played the majority of them.
And I've played all of them. You should perhaps do the same.
I don't believe you've played all of them.
I most certainly have, my friend.
Clay Fighters doesn't count.
Freshly-Picked Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland counts. 🙂
I'll pick your Rosy Rupeeland if you know what I mean.
I had a better time 100%ing Hyrule Warriors Definitive Edition than playing Rosy Rupeeland. Balloon Trip of Love was way more fun.
The meme that E3 spawned still being used today. What a legacy.
This.
https://gelbooru.com/index.php?page=post&s=list&tags=gaijin_4koma_%28meme%29
This is where the legacy truly lies.
>the average gamer 20 years ago was a normie beer drinking bro
>the average gamer today is a normie feminist b***h
if you hated sumo wrestling gorons, then kys
Sumo wrestling was garbage. Frick your forced minigames.
the collectathon aspect of the game during tears of light segments is kino, I love me some good Banjo-Kazooie
banjo kazooie is good in banjo kazooie, not when its preventing me from doing the actually good zelda stuff
she's so hot
>pinnacle of action/adventure video games
Ganker loves OOT
Delayed gratification. Had to wait for after the shitty Wind Waker to get the actual Zelda they wanted.
that's an awful hot coffee pot
>pinnacle of action/adventure video games
>it's total shit according to Ganker
the game is goofy awesome edgy fun the entire way through.
Celda sent Nintendo into a damage control spiral and it took one of the greatest E3 demonstrations, ending with that, to reverse it. Zelda was back. Nintendo was back. The dark age of the Gamecube was over. A revolution was promised.
Banjo-Kazooie is good no matter where it shows up.
I like coffee doesn't mean I want coffee coming out of my shower head
Maybe, but only if it's not forcing you to change into a shitty limited wolf transformation. Not Zelda.
>how could you not like x its literally z
>Year is 2008, my introduction to Zeldas is the Zelda Wind Waker limited edition that includes OOT
>Loved OOT
>WW is a piece of shit
>Loved TP
>Hated SS, Loved pic-related
>Hated BOTW, Loved Ys VIII
>Ignored TOTK, will likely love Ys: X Wind Waker
Most TP fans actually have good taste and find themselves catered to in Soulsgames and such.
Thanks for confirming zoomers that started with Zelda post-2000 have repugnant taste, I guess.
I should really check out Dark Souls sometime.
>modern Zelda fans are so gameplay-blind that they think one game can be a "clone" of another from a purely thematic standpoint with no acknowledge of mechanical or progression design
This only recently clicked with me, and this made the state of the Zelda games make a depressing amount of sense.
should have had gerudo in it
oot is pretty similar to alttp in over all design too, though not completely. that is to its benefit. you can do most adult dungeons out of order, contrary to popular belief
I would rather equip a shovel than have to transform into a wolf and dig with my little paws, or equip the lens of truth than have to suffer through that weird filter. at least midna is cute
>oot is pretty similar to alttp in over all design too, though not completely. that is to its benefit. you can do most adult dungeons out of order, contrary to popular belief
That I agree with. People calling WW/TP/SS "OoT clones" is where I draw the line.
>You're the moron posting about MM being open world slop, aren't you? GTFO.
No but I'm glad I still preemptively upset you so much.
>I would rather equip the paws then to just use my paws
because you're stupid because you're stupid
>I would rather equip my eye sight then to use my eyes
because you're stupid
because you're stupid
stfu about midna you homosexual. you have no right, like the game and appreciate more about it, or kys
seething moron. I like midna and I think tp is a pretty good, but flawed game.
zora form improves the game and actually makes swimming enjoyable.
yeah those people are moronic
>lying
You're the moron posting about MM being open world slop, aren't you? GTFO.
Nah, OoTlikes are mechanically clones too whether you want them to be or not.
What are you trying to say?
Modern Zelda fans don't seem to be able to acknowledge the themes and identity of TP, recognizing it's individuality uniqueness.
The wolf transformation is the most versatile in the franchise. It possesses 8 abilities that were relegated to items in previous games you needed to pause and equip in order to use. All of them are organically integrated with the form; it's Ludo.
The wolf form is clunky dogshit and fundamentally not Zelda.
turning into a zora isn't Zelda
The difference is that the Zora form is 100000% more fun.
wolf form is 10000000% more fun
It didn't make sense. Why a wolf? Why didn't anyone else get an animal form?
I guess talking to the other animals was cool
>Why didn't anyone else get an animal form?
wdym
Both Ganon and Midna have animal forms, what are you talking about?
>I guess talking to the other animals was cool
That would have been the only cool thing about the form if it wasn't so pathetically underutilized.
Wolf transformation has Banjo-Kazooie, this makes it best. deal with it morons
>My name is moron and I like pausing the game to equip items, it's a lot of fun. I really like it so much. I wish I could equip a black dick in my ass.
g-good luck with that,
Oot fans hated WW
>love oot
>love mm
>love ww
>love tp
>love botw
>love totk
>ss is shit but has its moments
any other non morons in the chat
ooh ooh me me
Love is a strong word. Fricking bawd.
Yes, me. I don't love them equally but I do love them all to varying degrees except for SS.
Equipping the Mask of Truth and talking to gossip stones would have been the only cool thing in OOT if it wasn't so underutilized.
Why are you copying my post with a whatboutism? I said nothing about OoT.
TPgays are terminally insecure.
I get what you're saying. It's an extremely cool puzzle/quest that unfortunately just leads to a couple of heart pieces at best. OoT is incredibly good at coming up with "grand mysteries"
You know what's cool about Ocarina of Time? you can't use half your equipment at any given time, depending on whether you're young or adult transformation.
I like that in order to transform you have to play a song then run forward to the set piece and press the action button. Then you need to play a song to warp back and run back to where you were.
It's a great game. It's the most goodest game ever conceived.
difficult though it must be to believe, some people 18 years ago actually had hope for the future.
It just looks visually like what people wanted a Zelda game to look like. Wind Waker actually turned out to be the better game though. I'm sorry, Wind Waker.
>5 dungeons, wind temple is the only good one
>endless boring sailing
>islands that do nothing and are nothing
>reefs
>obnoxious story gating
no, but thats not to say that TP is great.
This. I actually like Twilight Princess's aesthetic aside from a few ugly meme characters I was probably more excited for this than Wind Waker but I ended up enjoying Wind Waker more. Even when you ignore OoT most of the other Zelda games just did it better.
TWW is a hot mess and was the worst 3D Zelda game for almost 15 years... then BotW and its sequel came out
>im a boomer now despite being a zoomer
Gen-a Jennie please
Videogame graphics still had massive jumps between generations. The fans wanted back dark, edgy and "realistic" Zelda after WW was underwhelming.
Oot at that point was considered a masterpiece. Lord of the Rings was at it's peak popularity also so when fans were finally confirmed a dark, realistic fantasy game similar to Oot it got a kino reception. Regardless of how both WW and TP have aged.
Why is Miyamoto up there lmao, that homie wasn't even in charge of the game
Back then, all people in the West knew was Miyamoto's face, he was the Mario/Zelda/Nintendo guy to everyone here so they marketed the games as such. In reality he only supervised the first couple of Mario and Zelda games until it was swiftly handed off to other people. We didn't learn about Aonuma, Koizumi, Fujibayashi, etcs. Contributions until many years later. Pic related gives you an idea of how naive we were.
Wind Waker nearly killed the IP and pissed off a lot of fans who got into the series from the N64 games.
When was the last worthwhile "Ocarina-like" game that came out? Since BotW/TotK are clearly not the same kind of game. Have there been any at all since Skyward Sword and Darksiders 2?
it depends if your ocarinalike means that whole link to the past formula or not.
BotW and TotK are a lot like OoT if you just stick to the suggested paths. Everyone who played these games by "going their own way" and then complained that it isn't linear just didn't listen to the game's suggestions. It can be linear if you want it to be.
BotW, sure.
TotK is a design mess that basically requires you to fast travel all the time, something I did very seldomly in BotW because the load times used to be too long and it was also immersion-breaking.
That doesn't even make sense. Even without fast travel it's much quicker and easier to get around in TotK than in BotW, not to mention that TotK is just a better game in almost every conceivable way.
botw is better than totk though
>in almost every conceivable way
except the most important one: the dungeons are even more moron baby game than BotW
Dungeons are not that important, and even if they were TotK's dungeons have more clever puzzles than BotW's.
dungeons are very important zoomer
I was playing Zelda games while you were still in daddy's nutsack, millenial. Dungeons aren't important, the exploration-puzzle loop is.
>Even without fast travel it's much quicker and easier to get around in TotK than in BotW
That's the problem. It destroys BotW's "sense of adventure".
Not really. MM also had incredibly quick ways to get around and nobody complained that those ruined the sense of adventure.
They're totally different kinds of games.
Also what I'm talking about is not really the option to get around quickly, but the general design of the world. BotW encouraged you to kind of "play through", to commit to an area and explore it and then move on to the next area. The start of the game has a very natural flow of going from the Plateau, through the Dueling Peaks to your first stable, then Kakariko, then Hateno, and then most likely into the Zora's Domain. But the game world is set up so the player can have a good time regardless of where they choose to go.
TotK by comparison has a shitton of built-in backtracking and weird arbitrary content gating. You need to keep warping back to the new hub town. You need to keep warping back to the newspaper. You need to do the newspaper shit FIRST and then go to very specific stables to unlock all of the Great Fairies, whereas in the first game even if you went in a weird direction first you'd eventually find a Great Fairy, and one was available fairly early near Kakariko. If you don't start the newspaper shit you can't do ANY of the stable sidequests.
>If you don't start the newspaper shit you can't do ANY of the stable sidequests.
BotW actually has tons of this shit, lots of stuff is hard locked behind other things that can easily be missed, and in a way I respect it for having the balls to do that even if it goes too far sometimes (like being about to straight up miss Hetsu).
>equating loose setting/plot points at all to level design and gameplay
holy shit you guys are moronic
There's never been an Ocarina-like.
Twilight Princess is for me a good zelda Unfortunately, it has some faults which prevent
it from being at the same level of OOT the part with the wolf is redundant and becomes obsolete after Kakariko Village (but it's better than the pink rabbit from alttp)
and the fights against the Shadow Beast is also repetitive and quickly becomes boring apart from that everything in TP is better done than OOT and those who say the opposite has not played the game or they simply hate OOT
At the time OOT was the undisputed greatest game of all time if you asked any gamer 90% would say OOT, it was just the default answer. Nowadays I think it'd be like 40% at most
Would this OOT rehash be even half as beloved if it didn't have Midna? Not talking shit it's my favourite Zelda I belive it's OOT but better with great dungeons and the Twighlight ahesetic is awesome
zelda will never be this kino again
The eternal popularity of OoT Link makes me think that Nintendo will come back to that sort of style again. They need somewhere to go now that BotW era is over.
I think so. But it really wouldn't be the same game. It's Twilight Princess and so much of the story and gameplay revolve around Midna. It's be almost like saying would people like Majora's mask without the masks
I think Midna could be replaced with Zelda trapped in the twilight realm, communing with Link via his shadow. That would make Zelda more prominent in the game, and would have an opportunity to fight shadow link !!
Midna's existence steals runtime from Zelda in my opinion. If I were to criticque TP, they all just come up on the narrative side of things.
If it were remade or something, you should be able to choose which member of the adventure league to travel with to their region, and have some more character development on the way. Two birds with a stone, more atmosphere & character, a bit of non-linearity in an otherwise straightforward game.
>E3
It was the next big Zelda game after Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, and with how successful both were, people were stoked for Twilight Princess especially with how well it was marketed and presented.
>next big zelda after OOT and MM
wind waker doesn't exist then i guess? if only
all the masks in MM are really great and fun to use. Zora is my favorite. I love pulling out a guitar or using my fins like double boomerrangs.
It's the little details that make them interesting too. Goron Link can stand on lava... Zora Link can walk underwater...
deku link just burns or dies on lava or water hahaha
because it was fricking amazing and you'll never experience anything like it
n64 gays have arrested development surpassing anyone who came before or after. similar only to ds2 gays. the sheer contrarianism they display believing their awkward first gen 3d bullshit is superior to the peak of 2d or games that came the generation after theirs is appalling. yes tp is the best zelda. hands down and it isnt even close. you will never convince these gays that the first game their zoomer asses played (ocarina of time or mario 64) isnt the best. as someone born in the mid 80s i cannot imagine feeling nostalgia for anything on the N64 or ps1 or any other console of that era.
>i have no competence to judge games on pacing and game design, please listen to my lies
sorry to hear that anon.
my first zelda game was tp. i just recognize OOT is better.
zoomer
can't help it. I was born young.
millennial
Why is OP such a homosexual?
It is exactly what we wanted, a realization of what the series had been building to all this time.
The series had been building to dogshit filler and style over substance dungeons?
>moronic adhd zoomer addicted to youtube/twitch can't wrap his head around pre release trailers
many such cases
I thought it was better than WW and the later day games., but not as good as OoT or MM. The best 2D Zeldas are still the Oracle games and Zelda 2.
what's the best version of TP?
Gamecube
Wii U
>5 hr tutorial
>bug hunting
>wolf sections
>Terrible pacing
>Ganondorf was behind it all!
>Just as easy as Wind Waker
>Dull ugly version of OoT
>Terrible Anime story
>Useless items
>Dungeons are glorified set pieces
>Overworld is somehow worse than the N64 games.
I played Okami right before playing this. Okami just mogged the frick out of it, so I quit TP pretty quick
I literally didn't buy a GC because of Wind Waker and I actually took a break from Nintendo in general. I was about 11 years old and it was the perfect time for me to really hate the cartoony ass graphics. I actually didn't even get a Wii until two years after TP came out when I started getting back into Nintendo shit, I was like 18 by then ironically but even 80 year olds were buying the Wii.
TP has less sidequests than WW, making WW the meatier gamecube zelda game.
too bad wind waker only has 5 dungeons
WW still comes out on top for balancing its overworld/side content and dungeons better than TP could ever dream of.
its easier to balance less
no
WW has less side and main story content than TP despite having a bigger world lol
Reminder to get your redump here:
https://myrient.erista.me/files/Redump/Nintendo%20-%20Wii%20-%20NKit%20RVZ%20%5Bzstd-19-128k%5D/
>femcel thread
Twilight Princess would have been instantly improved if we got more Zelink narrative. Aonuma knew it too, that's why they finally started adding a bunch of Zelink shit in the next game (too little too late)
This, but unironcially. Why the frick they make Zelda so passive.
Wind Waker is horrible so when we saw an actual OoT-like follow up we shat our pants. Well, TP turned out to be mediocre but still much better than WW
TP was just the best of the worst among the GCN/Wii Trilogy. It was mediocre rather than disappointing like WW or a trash fire like SS.
agreed
wyyd
TP has great dungeons and a great atmosphere, but the pacing is pretty bad and the world itself felt pretty contrived compared to OoT which felt more like an organic world put together.
In the end I still feel awkward about TP and if they decide to re-release it I'm kinda hoping for serious QoL or even straight up remade stuff to make it more enjoyable as a whole.
Also SS, despite overworld flaws, is a great Zelda game, I put it above TP and your (You)s won't change that fact.
well because the previous game was wind waker. people were mad because it was cel shaded and looked like a kiddy cartoon. nintend.rones were calling for blood (and a modern game that saw a return to the more "dark" and "mature" OoT graphical style) so when this shit came out it blew people's collective minds.
Twilight Princess fools people into thinking it's this grand, epic, mature, Zelda game when in reality it was a paint by the numbers Zelda game that retained most of Wind Waker's flaws. People like the idea of Twilight Princess not the actual game itself. The dungeons also fool players into thinking they are more complex than they actually are. TP killed traditional 3d Zelda and Skyward Sword buried it.
You never hold more than 1 key at a time in TP. Compare that to the dungeons in A link to the past where you would hold multiple keys at once. You had to be aware of the layout of the dungeons in ALTTP. You had to figure out which way to proceed.
Ocarina of Time also had this. Forest Temple and Water Temple forced you to pay attention to your surroundings. And while the rest of the dungeons are linear in Ocarina of Time, the game constantly threw new types of puzzle at you to compensate. For example, the puzzles revolving around lens of truth in the shadow temple.
There is no progression for the dungeons in TP. The first dungeon plays exactly like the last one.
>Boomers
It's a zoomer game
Twilight Princess is millennial as frick
... on opposite day. In reality, it's a zoomer game.
Emo was a millennial thing
Your point is?
Twilight Princess's aesthetic is blatantly meant to appeal to millennial teens.
zoomers were in diapers or not even born yet
it's a millennial game
... in an alternate dimension. In reality zoomers were 8 years old and people start playing videogames since 4-5.
Zoomers don't remember 9/11.
But even if we go with your metric, an 8-year-old wouldn't understand the significance and wouldn't be as hyped as someone in his teens for a gritty Zelda that looked like LOTR, since he would've been 5 when Wind Waker or 'Celda' was announced.
TP is almost 20 years old
Your point is?
You're moronic
>No argument
Done
Best gameplay
Best aesthetics
Best Love interest
Midna
Zelda sucks as a series.
Everyone wanted a new Zelda like OOT/MM and got WW instead
MM was shit. All I wanted was TP2. Hell, I would have been happy if the Dark World in TotK was the Twilight Realm.
Great game.
Reddit Waker was fricking garbage (and i say this as someone who liked Minish Cap) so when TP came out it redeemed the series
It’s sad. Nowadays zoomers don’t get really hyped over games. They just consume then move onto the next product right around the corner. They will never understand how magical moments like this was.
TWILIGHT PRINCESS RULES
they wanted the grimdark dudebro aesthetic after they shitted on the kino that was Wind Waker, only to realize that they were recieving a hot turd out of shartendo's butthole fresh from the source, and Midna, my beloved
Americans want Zelda to be Lord of the Rings.
They should unironically just play Elden Ring instead.
troony game
Wind Waker is not only hideous, but if you like it you're an growth stunted troony.
because it didn't look like a gay gay game like wind waker and minish cap. we like stuff that is badass, not homosexual. how is this hard for people to understand?
morons ITT don’t know that Midna occupies the Z button. In WW that’s dedicated to an item slot
everything sucks
I'm so jaded
weee