>roguelike playerbase is really small >people who didnt come from that playerbase needed a term to describe procedural generation games focused on runs so they used it >even amongst roguelike players they cant even agree what the term even means "ugh its like rogue moron" but then cant define what being "like rogue" is (see berlin interpretation) >nobody really gives a frick except turbo grogs screaming into the void >trolls abuse the term because said grogs get very upset
>(see berlin interpretation)
That was never about describing what is or is not a roguelike to begin with and anyone who uses it as an argument about this sub-genre is an idiot.
you could call for example, BoI by an actual good descriptor: procedural twinstick shooter
the only reason people used roguelike is because it came with a sort of "prestige" attached to it
and effectively they wanted to let players feel as if they played a roguelike without having to put in the effort required to play a roguelike
>the only reason people used roguelike is because it came with a sort of "prestige" attached to it
This is probably why a bunch of people get mad when you say that a game, which is obviously not a roguelike, isn't a roguelike. They're made it some kind of badge of honor, but I have no idea why they would even bother because being a roguelike doesn't make something a good game. Most roguelikes suck.
nah, it's more that fans of the genre are mad that the term was first turned into a badge of honor, then a hollow badge of honor, which in turn made actually using the term for it's intended purpose: to describe a series of games with similar playstyles, worthless
effectively, it's become near impossible for
A: to find a new roguelike
B: for new actual roguelikes to gain prominence because they get swallowed up by a tide of shovelware using the term "roguelike" to hide that they are shovelware
ontop of this, one of the defining parts of a roguelike is that the only difference between a new player and an experienced player is experience and knowledge
a lot of roguelites using the term "roguelike" fundamentally break this by having meta-progression, either allowing themselves to be brute-forced with passive upgrades or artificially lengthening play time by making it mathematically impossible to win your first run
and that latter has another issue which compounds point B above: traditional roguelikes are getting bad reviews because they do not include meta-progression, further burying them among shovelware, despite a lack of meta-progression being a key aspect to the genre
This.
A bunch of greedy morons are stealing words and meanings from smaller communities and then on top of that they bash said communities for reacting.
a game that makes you stronger after every death does not play as rogue
the idea behind a lack of meta-progression is that every run matters, every run has an equal chance to win and every death is just as big a setback as the last
that's core to the roguelike identity, there's no grinding
5 months ago
Anonymous
>words words words
but does it play Like Rogue
As in
Do you control the character
and fight enemies
like
rogue
5 months ago
Anonymous
>do you control the character and fight enemies
Street Fighter II is a roguelike
seriously the fact you think roguelikes are about fighting enemies shows you've never played a proper roguelike
5 months ago
Anonymous
but does street fighter 2 play like Rogue?
Have you ever played Rogue?
Have you even just played Crawl at least?
5 months ago
Anonymous
I didn't start with Rogue no, I started with Nethack
and no, roguelikes are not about fighting enemies, fighting enemies is pretty incidental to the actual point of the game: to explore and survive the dungeon
5 months ago
Anonymous
>and no, roguelikes are not about fighting enemies
the WAY in which you fight things
being like rogue
rogue-like you could say
>obtuse ass moron trying to say all games are the same genre because of the word fight
5 months ago
Anonymous
no anon, the point is that fighting enemies is not the point of a roguelike
getting past the dungeon's obstacles, the enemies being a subset of that, is the point
it's why games like BoI are NOT roguelikes, because they artificially force you into rooms where you have to fight enemies to continue
on top of that they automatically identify items for you because god forbid you actually have some risk-reward to picking something up
5 months ago
Anonymous
okay but do you get past the dungeons obstacles
in a manner
like
rogue?
5 months ago
Anonymous
it depends, how did you get past the obstacle
if you got past it through your ingame actions in the style of rogue then yes
however if you only passed to obstacle because you gained a 50% innate damage boost from spending 2000 ROGUE COINS prior to starting the run, then no, you did not get past the obstacle in a manner like rogue
5 months ago
Anonymous
so your game looks and plays
kinda
LIKE
this?
a little LIKE rogue maybe?
5 months ago
Anonymous
if you gain any advantage to your run that does not stem from your action during the run then
you
did
not
do
it
like
rogue
5 months ago
Anonymous
Wow amazing thanks for showing me how the top game plays more Like Rogue than the bottom!
moron
5 months ago
Anonymous
permadeath is core to roguelikes anon
this isn't a binary choice, the answer to "which of these 2 games is a roguelike" can be neither
5 months ago
Anonymous
do you think that xcom becoms more like rogue when you turn ironman mode on compared to when it's off?
Fricking delusional shitbag you are.
5 months ago
Anonymous
no, you need to meet several minimum characteristics to be a roguelike
there's no being "more or less" if you don't meet the bare minimum
permadeath is such a bare minimum, and any game that is not intrinsically designed around perma-death is not a roguelike
5 months ago
Anonymous
Elona isn't designed around permadeath, it's a Roguelike.
The only actual qualifier to be a roguelike is simulturn RPG
5 months ago
Anonymous
>The only actual qualifier to be a roguelike is simulturn RPG
No, the qualifier is being like Rogue
The more like Rogue it is the more of a Roguelike it is
5 months ago
Anonymous
>permadeath is such a bare minimum, and any game that is not intrinsically designed around perma-death is not a roguelike
So you would straight up argue that ToME is not a roguelike?
5 months ago
Anonymous
Isn't that just a dungeon crawler then? There's literally no reason to call it anything else.
5 months ago
Anonymous
It has permadeath. But it's a toggle you select on or off at the start of a run.
And that toggle isn't a genre toggle. That's ridiculous. Provided you don't die, you wouldn't even notice whether or not you had the toggle on or off.
5 months ago
Anonymous
5 months ago
Anonymous
>god forbid you actually have some risk-reward to picking something up
Yes that does in fact sound awful in a game where you automatically equip everything you pick up. moron.
5 months ago
Anonymous
yes which is why a game where you automatically equip everything you pick up is not a roguelike
because roguelikes have risk-reward and seek to maximize player agency
games that intentionally take away player agency, like BoI, are not roguelikes, they have a completely different design philosophy than a roguelike
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Player agency >rogue
he cannot be serious.
5 months ago
Anonymous
compared to 99% of games that call themselves "roguelikes" it has immense player agency yes
the lack of agency in rogue does not stem from intentional design but rather from the game being really really old
5 months ago
Anonymous
>the lack of agency in rogue does not stem from intentional design but rather from the game being really really old
So you admit it doesn't have any, thanks for playing.
5 months ago
Anonymous
it has more player agency than BoI, the poster-child of a game that calls itself a roguelike without being one
but please do point me out where rogue locks you in a room until you defeat the enemy which can only be done by reducing their HP to 0
>the only reason people used roguelike is because it came with a sort of "prestige" attached to it
This is probably why a bunch of people get mad when you say that a game, which is obviously not a roguelike, isn't a roguelike. They're made it some kind of badge of honor, but I have no idea why they would even bother because being a roguelike doesn't make something a good game. Most roguelikes suck.
Everyone calls them roguelites now, what the frick are you idiots talking about? No one cares about the "prestige" of playing a roguelike, that's a schizo-tier conspiracy theory. Most of the people who play these games haven't even heard of Rogue.
You really need to leave Ganker more.
>Everyone calls them roguelites now
a cursory glance of new releases tagged as roguelike on steam shows that 99% of games released under the tag roguelike are not roguelikes
see
>ah yes, I will play Hades so I feel the PRESTIGE of playing a roguelike, a genre with so much PRESTIGE that I MUST play a game that is "pretending" to be one
- ideas thought up by the utterly deranged
I don't give a frick about semantics or how moronic Steam's tag system is. I just wanted to make fun of you for thinking that people are playing Binding of Isaac, Rogue Legacy, Hades, Risk of Rain, Dead Cells, Darkest Dungeon, etc because casuals need to feel the PREEESTIIIIGE of playing a roguelike.
TOUCH.
GRASS.
NOW.
>I don't give a frick about semantics or how moronic Steam's tag system is.
There's no semantics. You said most people just call them roguelites, and that is evidently untrue.
>Everyone calls them roguelites now
a cursory glance of new releases tagged as roguelike on steam shows that 99% of games released under the tag roguelike are not roguelikes
>roguelike is because it came with a sort of "prestige"
Lmao man the stuff you read on this site sometimes. Autist really cant fathom that 99.99% of people just dont care
back in the days that was effectively how it was used, these days no longer true because of how it's hollowed out
well, prestige might not be the right word, but roguelike did at one point (before you joined this site, possibly before you finished middle school) describe a fairly small number of games, each with fairly large average quality per game
there was an expectation that the developers had fairly high attention to detail, precisely because it was such a niche genre
however this got turned around, with developers rather than polishing their game because it was a roguelike, instead calling their game a roguelike to give it the illusion of polish
to make a food analogy it's a bit the equivalent of quality labels having become completely worthless because a billion different quality labels were created and every single item has at least 1 quality label
>the only reason people used roguelike is because it came with a sort of "prestige" attached to it
Prestige in what perspective exactly?
Turn-based game is by definition not a "hardcore" genre, since it boils down to player figuring out a correct solution to what to do without any time limits, which is trivial in an age when search engines exist.
Fast top-down action games calling which r-word gets autistics asshurt by definition provide more gamer cred than that, since they check precision, reaction speed and quick decision-making.
>which is trivial in an age when search engines exist.
Same could be said about any game.
Yet more classic roguelikes still are quite difficult to win.
The prestige is pretty similar to Dark Souls games.
prestige was perhaps a wrong term to use
it's more that roguelikes once upon a time had a fairly high baseline level of quality, often with small but dedicated devs
knowing this, other devs started to try and "shine their turd" by calling it a roguelike
problem is of course that this rapidly lead to such an oversaturation the term stopped having any quality to it, but was still used, erroneously
so it had a double effect on the actual roguelikes: it left them without a term to describe themselves, and it made them now associate with shovelware
you are aware that among the roguelike community there always was a sense of self-imposed limits to search engine use
roguelikes were some of the first online games out there, old enough that the net- part of nethack does not stand for internet, because the latter didn't exist yet
information always was available, if you wanted to ruin the game for yourself, there never was any sense of the information being kept "secret"
only a sense of avoiding spoilers
that has not changed in the age of search engines, and the fact that I have to explain that to you makes it fairly clear you've not really played any proper roguelike
>and effectively they wanted to let players feel as if they played a roguelike without having to put in the effort required to play a roguelike
moron thinks playing rogue has prestige kek. Here's a more accurate description of what happened : Game devs wanted to describe their new game in the parts of the ideas that they took from permadeath games without it being as timewasting and stupid to play.
Rogue and actual permadeath games are terrible games where most of the successful players either cheat to give themselves meta progression or look up guides on how to not die, basically never playing the game how it's meant to be played.
Having to invest a 100 hours to figure out obscure mechanics that instak-kill you isn't skill or prestigious.
getting turned to stone by a medusa because you didn't cover your eyes isn't an obscure mechanic, it's common sense and you should have thought of that before you blundered in like a moron
>prestige
there is zero prestige to playing glorified spreadsheets, go outside and touch grass
even action roguelites have more "prestige" attached to them, because at least the higher levels of difficulty require good reflexes, skill, game knowledge and improvisation, and not just memorizing information from a table you found on a wiki page
who didnt come from that playerbase needed a term to describe procedural generation games focused on runs so they used it
nah you're an idiot. shit was only used to describe any game with permadeath at first. then it became a marketing term for literal morons such as yourself to sell dogshit games like rogue legacy
>berlin interpretation
Seeing big loud words like these makes clueless observer thing like you're discussing quantum physics or esoteric philosophy there lmao. Except you don't, and this comes off as an unreasonable bloating of a completely worthless subject to quantum physics levels of importance. And you homosexuals ask why people frick with you, it would have been strange if they didn't.
who didnt come from that playerbase needed a term to describe procedural generation games focused on runs so they used it
But this is not an explanation.
Ok they needed a term for it. Why use a term of an already existing genre from an already existing sub culture? Even from a purely egotistical perspective, that makes it's just inefficient. They've invited this kind of shitflinging discourse. For no good reason.
>metroidvania
This one fricks me the most because in 100% of the cases they're just ripping off symphony of the night with no Metroid. The only exceptions that I'm aware of are axiom verge and a robot named fight
All right tell the class what >The only exceptions (to games copying symphony of the night and not Metroid) that I'm aware of are axiom verge and a robot named fight
means, and why it isn't saying that Axiom Verge is a Metroid rip off.
>100% of the cases they're just ripping off symphony of the night with no Metroid.
Metroidvania was just coined to describe the Castlevania's that play like Metroid. So really if we only use the genre term to exclusively describe gameplay then all Metroidvania's should actually be Metroid-like
Except nobody actually gives a shit about Metroid, and Castlevania popularized the subgenre for all the indie devs making spinoffs, so Metroidvania makes more sense as it pays respect to Metroid while also acknowledging people actually mean SotNlike.
I played axiom verge the other day
It is without a doubt one of the worst metroidvanias I've ever played. Infinite weapons that do absolutely nothing of value
Graphics are horrible to look at, especially the secret rooms
The only challenge in those secret rooms is fighting the seizures
Chock full of forgettable mechanics that you barely use, and when you do need to use them you're left trying to figure out which one to use since they all basically do the same thing
robot named fight pissed me off too much. i'm so sick of roguelite mechanics. just make an arcade mode next time please i don't want to die 50 times just to get a decent start
>i don't want to die 50 times just to get a decent start
The hell are you talking about? The first run is the easiest one since you don't have any alternate routes. Its literally just super metroid.
They require you to know how specific games play. While good genres don't. FPS isn't going to be confusing to anyone who knows what words mean.
But Rogue-like doesn't mean shit. To know what Rogue-like means, you have to play Rogue. It's why we stopped calling all FPS games, Doom-clones. Enough time had passed, and people weren't playing Doom anymore.
You're silly. Call of Duty and Portal are both FPS. they have very little overlap. rogue-lite/ke tells you what the gameplay loop will be like in ways that a more superficial genre wouldn't.
>Call of Duty and Portal are both FPS
Correct. >they have very little overlap
No, they have a lot of overlap. Both are in the first person perspective, both have the primary gameplay for shooting things, both having the primary deaths from fall damage and bullets. >rogue-lite/ke tells you what the gameplay loop will be like in ways that a more superficial genre wouldn't.
No, they tell you nothing, because Rogue doesn't tell you what you do in the game. If I never heard of Rogue before, I'd assume it was a Thief type game, where you go around sneaking, stealing, and stabbing people with daggers.
>both have the primary gameplay for shooting things, both having the primary deaths from fall damage and bullets.
This is incredibly reductive and disingenuous to a point of being outright misleading and you know it.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Not at all. The gameplay requires the same skills. You need to know how to aim, where to shoot, you need to know how/where you can safely fall to, you need to know how to avoid enemy bullets.
All sorts of skills are transferable from CoD to Portal or from Portal to CoD.
Not all of the skills will be relevant, but quite a bit, including all the basics can be gained from one and applied to the other.
If you want to be even more specific, they both have singleplayer levels, broken up by storybeats, loading screens. and mission selection screens.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Also being familiar with the tropes and fundamentals of genres means that we often have a distorted view of what's normal and what's novel. Portal, COD, Doom, and even Minecraft have a lot more in common with each other than they do with any non-FPS. We're just perceptive to the differences because we've committed their control schemes, their user interfaces, their pacing, to muscle memory. Show someone whose gaming experience starts and stops with Candy Crush and they're going to think they're all the same thing, in the same way that your grandparents thought any vaguely animal cartoon thing was Pokemon.
5 months ago
Anonymous
It still baffles me that dual analog was once treated as some crazy idea that wouldn't catch on, especially when PC already had the same control setup but better with keyboard for movement and mouse for the camera. The real shitty part is that there's barely any innovation past dual analog, so aiming on consoles is still shit
5 months ago
Anonymous
On the one hand, yeah, it seems obvious. On the other hand, survivorship bias is a b***h. There was a time when everyone thought waggle (Wii, PSMove, Kinect, etc.) was THE gaming scheme of the future. Before that we were going through some radical shifts in controller design. Remember the bighueg Dreamcast/XBOX controllers? Remember the fricking three-handed N64 controller? On PCs, remember when everything used your F-keys, and now nothing does? Hell, even numpads have fallen out of keybind fashion because so many people have 70%s or laptops.
If I see as much as ONE of those terms on either your game synopsis or tags, I'm not even pirating your fricking game. It's that simple. Have your own ideas.
If I see as much as ONE of those terms on either your game synopsis or tags, I'm not even pirating your fricking game. It's that simple. Have your own ideas.
I hate Earthbound-inspired because I remember getting lost in Earthbound in the world, trying to find where to go. Earthbound-inspired games don't have that. Literally 90% of the game isn't part of the game.
Maybe so but I remember it was hard to figure out WHERE to go. That's what I mean by lost. Modern games have open world where you know where to go. Earthbound I got lost trying to find the next objective and it was fun trying to discover that, it was what stayed with me.
Game developers have learned a lot about how to guide the player over the years, and they learned that through laborious trial and error. Not all those lessons are good (yellow paint ledges), but there's been a lot of manhours dedicated to saving gamers from themselves.
I'm reminded of the developer commentary for Half Life 2, where they mention that some playtesters got stuck in a looping tunnel for like an hour. They just removed the loop for the release.
>I'm reminded of the developer commentary for Half Life 2, where they mention that some playtesters got stuck in a looping tunnel for like an hour. They just removed the loop for the release.
Should've just removed the playtester, from life.
The "true" definition does not have nearly enough new games to justify its use. It's like if people got mad at calling real time role-playing games RPGs, because all RPGs used to be turn-based.
>The "true" definition does not have nearly enough new games to justify its use
We have the term MOBA and there's only 2 MOBA games that matter
there's hundreds of Roguelikes that people actually play
Because caring about the meaning of words is gay and its funny watching people have autistic meltdowns when they can't handle the natural evolution of language. Sometimes I make up words or say things wrong on purpose.
>ah yes, I will play Hades so I feel the PRESTIGE of playing a roguelike, a genre with so much PRESTIGE that I MUST play a game that is "pretending" to be one
- ideas thought up by the utterly deranged
I've seen a lot of people brag about completing hades, only to then watch them admit they could only complete it after getting all the meta-buffs and using the most blatantly overpowered unlock-only weapon
the game should be fair about what it is: a procedural hack'n slash
>instead of using 1 word to describe a group of games that are all deliberately following a specific design philosophy, we should use three words that barely mean anything
You guys are so moronic while thinking you're so smart/cultured. How embarrassing for you.
>I don't give a frick about semantics or how moronic Steam's tag system is.
There's no semantics. You said most people just call them roguelites, and that is evidently untrue.
steams tag system is literally the entire point you moron
>still avoiding the main issue
See above.
None of you are bright.
NO ONE CARES ABOUT ROGUE
THERE IS NO PRESTIGE
TOUCH
GRASS
the term roguelike does not describe hades at all, it only describes at most generous, the procedural part
so you still have to call it under your use of the term a roguelike hack'n slash to differentiate it from roguelike platformers and roguelike twinstick shooters and roguelike survival games
so at this point, just use the term procedural instead which is more accurate, because roguelike already has a few extra definitions as part of it
it's at minimum a turn based, topdown tile movement rpg with procedurally generated levels
if your game can't meet that minimum then yes, it's not a roguelike and instead should be described with the term procedural
back in the days that was effectively how it was used, these days no longer true because of how it's hollowed out
well, prestige might not be the right word, but roguelike did at one point (before you joined this site, possibly before you finished middle school) describe a fairly small number of games, each with fairly large average quality per game
there was an expectation that the developers had fairly high attention to detail, precisely because it was such a niche genre
however this got turned around, with developers rather than polishing their game because it was a roguelike, instead calling their game a roguelike to give it the illusion of polish
to make a food analogy it's a bit the equivalent of quality labels having become completely worthless because a billion different quality labels were created and every single item has at least 1 quality label
>reddit spacing with no capitalization or punctuation
Who do you expect to read this garbage when you don't have the modicum of respect for your potential audience to format it properly?
hi anon, did you know that 100% of people who get upset at supposed "reddit spacing" joined this site after 2016, and came from reddit?
merry christmas
5 months ago
Anonymous
I b***hed about reddit spacing in 2014 thougheverbiet
5 months ago
Anonymous
and how did you know it was "reddit" spacing?
like, what's reddit about it?
5 months ago
Anonymous
I called it reddit because that kind of spacing annoys me
Because seperating sentances.
Like this.
Takes up twice as much space
While saying half as much as a regular post
5 months ago
Anonymous
so you automatically think about reddit so much that anything which annoys you is reddit?
why do you care so much about reddit anon? why is it constantly on your mind?
5 months ago
Anonymous
I call it reddit because it pisses you off (hence you replying) >inb4 I dont actually care
if you care enough to reply youre jimmies were definitely rustled
5 months ago
Anonymous
I'm replying because I like the irony, and pointing out the irony, of the fact that the people who screech loudest about reddit, are in fact reddit people using this site
5 months ago
Anonymous
>STOP FORMATTING TEXT IT ANNOYS ME
Go frick yourself Black person homosexual. I am entirely sure that this shitty meme was launched to lower quality of discussion on this site. Nobody is going to read 2k characters post written as a single continuous sheet of text, however, if author would format it and separate it in parts for better readability, there will be lobotomized chimps like you screeching about reddit. Which should create a communication culture with people being actively discouraged to type anything longer than a twatter post.
5 months ago
Anonymous
You know what you can do to split your post into paragraphs? Press enter.
Once.
5 months ago
Anonymous
that doesn't split into paragraphs, that just makes a new sentence
gotta press it twice for that anon
like this
5 months ago
Anonymous
A dot and a space makes a new sentence. Like this.
Also how about that password? You don't even know what I'm talking about, do you.
5 months ago
Anonymous
see
If you press enter only once, it looks terribly formatted. Different screen dimensions will result in different line lengths, leading to visually displeasing formatting on posts.
It's also an ancient way of formatting text. Not only online, but for school projects as well. I remember using "reddit spacing" in middle school 2 decades ago. Legibility is important, and separating your paragraphs is important.
You newbies need to learn to properly space your posts.
5 months ago
Anonymous
What's the password, reddit tourist?
5 months ago
Anonymous
If you press enter only once, it looks terribly formatted. Different screen dimensions will result in different line lengths, leading to visually displeasing formatting on posts.
It's also an ancient way of formatting text. Not only online, but for school projects as well. I remember using "reddit spacing" in middle school 2 decades ago. Legibility is important, and separating your paragraphs is important.
5 months ago
Anonymous
this isnt reddit spacing because each group of text is its own paragraph. Its reddit spacing when literally every sentance/little thought the writter has is seperated by a line break for no reason. It reads like shit
5 months ago
Anonymous
the posts you were replying to had that anon
read up, check your eyes
also stop using reddit, it's bad for your brain
5 months ago
Anonymous
I dont use reddit and the closest Ive ever gotten to using it was imgur back in 2014-2015ish (I dont remember when the full redditifcation of that site caused me to leave)
5 months ago
Anonymous
if you've never reddit then why do you know so much about it, that every argument you make always devolves into using reddit?
methinks a little anon be lying his arse off
5 months ago
Anonymous
idk what the point of this arguement is >damn this game looks like shit >ugh how do you know what shit looks like anon? Do you look at shit all day? I think you secretly like to eat shit
5 months ago
Anonymous
so define now
what makes something "reddit"
5 months ago
Anonymous
if they talk too similarly to how anons talk on /tg/ or Ganker is usually the best indicator
5 months ago
Anonymous
You're grasping at straws. Anons were double-spacing their paragraphs since before you were old enough to use the internet.
If you press enter only once, it looks terribly formatted. Different screen dimensions will result in different line lengths, leading to visually displeasing formatting on posts.
It's also an ancient way of formatting text. Not only online, but for school projects as well. I remember using "reddit spacing" in middle school 2 decades ago. Legibility is important, and separating your paragraphs is important.
>>and others I don't care (you)
This reddit spacing insult is just a smoke screen of the real issue , same as anime website.
You look like a moron if you have every sentence spaced out like this.
doubly so if you can't even be fricked to capitalize/punctuate them
Now, if you have a paragraph (of a few sentences) and want to chunk them out with double spaces, go ahead. This is how you should. If we look at what those screencaps, they separated spaces by ideas, not just sentences (too excessive for my taste).
5 months ago
Anonymous
you look like a bigger moron because literally the only insult you know is "reddit"
you need to actively frame something in is this reddit or not for your monkey brain to get its dopamine
that's literally all that happens in your brain: a simple on-off switch of "is this reddit"
5 months ago
Anonymous
why are you getting so rustled over this? Methinks the lady doth protest too much
5 months ago
Anonymous
it's just funny watching the little monkey brain try to comprehend, that people who don't use reddit don't care about it
unlike you
5 months ago
Anonymous
>dude Im not a redditor >STALKER CHILD I WILL NOT TOLERATE YOU IMBECILIC MONKEY BRAIN GENERATING DOPAMINE BY CALLING ME A REDDITOR STALKER CHILD BABY NEWBORN APE
5 months ago
Anonymous
look at the israelite, how he recoils at being named
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Goalpost moving
Shut the frick up homosexuals I'm clearly someone else. The other guy was clearly pressing on the reddit angle, I'm saying it doesn't matter. And in addition, hmm, why would the same guy (you) the same post of
If you press enter only once, it looks terribly formatted. Different screen dimensions will result in different line lengths, leading to visually displeasing formatting on posts.
It's also an ancient way of formatting text. Not only online, but for school projects as well. I remember using "reddit spacing" in middle school 2 decades ago. Legibility is important, and separating your paragraphs is important.
???
Also to circle back my point >didn't address one point to my argument >just circles back around to reddit
This is why I say reddit's a smokescreen, same as homosexuals getting upset over anime being posting and you get the whole ANIME WEBSITE debate. For that debate, everyone's focusing on "this site is for weebs!", when the real answer is that it's an image, stop getting so irate over it.
And for reddit spacing or double spacing or whatever you wanna call it, you shouldn't spam it like periods. I don't even know if reddit uses it, here's my history on reddit. I just know it's annoying as shit and you don't have to do it.
5 months ago
Anonymous
anon, why did it take you half an hour to delete your history?
deleting website history is literally basic shit
5 months ago
Anonymous
I have librewolf that automatically deletes history but I can say most certainly I didn't try to delete my history.
How about going back and saying why my argument is wrong, why I'm a homosexual, the logical blunders I made, instead of just repeating yourself?
You think I'm some samegayging moron, surely you can just say I'm wrong, right?
5 months ago
Anonymous
you seem to think that spacing your sentences is reddit
which is moronic
the original post you called out as being "reddit spacing" didn't even have "reddit spacing" it has paragraphs
5 months ago
Anonymous
I'm clearly trying to talk to both sides.
Again, how about just say where I'm wrong? All you've done is >accuse me of goal posting, despite being clearly a new person >accuse me of going to reddit, despite proving I don't
Now you're just focusing on who I (you). Are we gonna sing and dance around this or are you going to say why my argument was wrong?
5 months ago
Anonymous
you're not taking both sides, you're either shielding your own posts by samegayging or else you're shielding someone else's posts which is kinda pathetic
you only showed up with a "both sides are bad" after the other anon (or you) gained 0 support and multiple opponents
5 months ago
Anonymous
You forgot to reddit space there, but remembered to purposefully omit capitalization and full stops.
5 months ago
Anonymous
that game contains just as much "reddit spacing" as the original post you replied to
also it's pretty obvious you're samegayging
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Goalpost moving
5 months ago
Anonymous
You're grasping at straws. Anons were double-spacing their paragraphs since before you were old enough to use the internet.
5 months ago
Anonymous
What's the traditional password to Ganker game servers, you have 2 minutes.
of using 1 word to describe a group of games that are all deliberately following a specific design philosophy
But roguelike does not describe anything about games like Hades, since you mentioned it. Their design philosophies are nothing alike.
>Rogue Legacy, a game that helped popularize roguelites started the term roguelite >Barely anyone used it
I hate this gay earth, and the moronic sheep that prevail the gaming industry.
Nobody gives a shit. Spelunky and BoI were always roguelikes, people only started the "roguelite" pedantry much later so that they could be annoying about it
Autists who couldn't handle a word expanding its meaning lost their minds over people referring to games that had elements of the game Rogue, instead of games that were mostly copy pasted Rogue.
They were pushing Procedural Dungeon Crawler or something close to that, before the world settled for Rogue-Lite.
I don't give a frick about those autistic freaks, so they're all Roguelikes to me, and that's what I call them all.
>can be infuriating
Only for English teachers, ESLs, and autists. Everyone else is cool with it, and do it naturally. >if that's okay then it's also okay to expand it even further
Naturally. >CoD is a roguelike after all
Doesn't adhere to either definition, Like or Lite. You'd be quite challenged to convince others to adopt such a definition, but technically possible.
>Roguelike
A niche subgenre that describes a specific type of game where the player is expected to make decisions for every single action he may want to take, including moving and doing nothing >Roguelite
Buzzword
I stop giving a shit both here and IRL because it's very simple to say roguelite instead of roguelike. But people don't want to be correct/you can't tell someone "you're a moron" and expect them to change.
https://i.imgur.com/Vx52RmA.jpg
Why did people destroy the term roguelike?
is CDDA a roguelike? I always see it as not, it's an open world game with roguelike mechanics. I play it a bunch but it focused on survival, not dungeon crawling. The big change in focus is why I think it's not, but I'm curious what Gankerermin think.
Because genre names only exist to give people an idea what a game is like. People who pretend that they have any point beyond that let alone are 'objective truths' are moronic
Because it's funny to frick with Chris-chan tier autismos who care about that shit. Shoundn't have been so unreasonably anal about it, nobody would have cared.
>be me and volunteering at some summer camp for abused and neglected children a few years ago >kids are talking about videogames and bring up roguelikes like enter the gungeon and Spelunkey >actually kids did you know those are called roguelites and roguelikes need to feature a grid based map and ascii graphics >kids half my age sneer at me like i'm a shitstain and walk away
FRICK YOU FRICK YOU FRICK YOU Ganker FOR MAKING ME THIS AUTISTIC THIS SHIT STILL HAUNTS ME DAILY.
Don't argue with people about getting definitions wrong. They don't care to.
Statistically, almost all of us worship the wrong God or not even have one. You don't go to a Church/Masjid/subreddit and try to correct their beliefs because tehy won't listen.
If you show what is traditionally called a Roguelike to the average person who plays video games, and ask them to identify its genre, all it takes is them having played something meteorically popular like Pokemon to identify it as an RPG. No further detail will be needed, in their mind. Everything beyond that falls into describing the specific gameplay, same as some racing games having items and some not.
The one part of roguelikes that dangles outside of "normal RPG stuff", the part these people can latch on to, is the fact that the game is meant to be played in disposable, arcade-esque "runs", rather than a long campaign with frequent saving and occasional loading.
That video is beyond fricking terrible and I hate it for spreading misinformation.
What kind of post-hoc attempts at understanding the terms from a perspective of ignorance, led people to think that the existence of metaprogression was the thing that defined roguelites and that this is what decides whether or not a game is a roguelite or a roguelike?
That's not it. Roguelikes are a distinct and easily recognizable genre. It's nothing like roguelites. And roguelites don't even need to have metaprogression.
This is why I hate arguing on Ganker.
Not one post
Not one
Just saying "you're dumb because (draws from a hat)"
Every argument post chain that goes longer than 4 becomes shit. It's time to take my leave and play CDDA
>but I am curious what Gankerermin think.
If someone would argue that CDDA isn't a roguelike. I would argue against that. But I wouldn't be mad at them the same way as I am with all the people who insist on calling games that clearly aren't roguelikes by any possible stretch of the imagination, roguelikes even though they aren't.
But my argument for CDDA is more of the kind that Donkey Kong 64 is both a 3D Platformer and a Collectathon. And one does not invalidate the other.
The Burnout series are still racing games even though they don't take place outside of traditional race tracks or follow traditional racing rules.
Like. One can argue that CDDA is an open world game with roguelike mechanics. Citing that CDDA has no real focus on dungeon crawling.
And I can kind of respect that perspective even though I don't share it. But consider this. If CDDA was an open world game with FPS mechanics. We really would call it an FPS. If it was first person and you ran around with guns, pointed and shot like in an FPS.
And it's not as if CDDA has no dungeon crawling. What with the multi floor:d research facilities and such.
not sure anon
don't know how roguelike being a game that plays like rogue is so hard for some people to grasp
there are some bangers out here these days though
Reminder that the reason why roguelike keeps getting misused is because of moronic journos and secondaries calling any game with permadeath a roguelike.
I mentioned it before in a previous thread, there isn't a better term for it that would fit without overlapping into too many unrelated things. Most other genres tend to have more directly defined terms that explains them and yet roguelikes don't in the way that is consistent.
Then say if you don't like what the term "roguelite" or "roguelike" is, outside of the "traditional" games similar to it, what would one call it? Try to think of a term that is 7 words or less at least.
The term for games that aren't roguelikes yet incorporate roguelike elements or inspiration from them. Was always roguelite.
So why not actually use that term? Instead of calling games that clearly aren't roguelikes, roguelikes.
Like I fricking loathe that "action roguelike" is even a term that people have started using. That's a fricking oxymoron. 100%, undeniably, of all roguelikes, are turn based. Simulturn even.
>Like I fricking loathe that "action roguelike" is even a term that people have started using
This, it's akin to saying that a game is a "turn based RTS". Only a complete moron wouldn't understand the problem with such a self contradictory label
Roguelike doesn't mean turn-based, turn-based means turn-based.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Roguelike doesn't mean turn-based
It literally does anon, it's part of the definition.
5 months ago
Anonymous
The most important and unique part of the definition is what happens on death in these types of games, Roguelike is really the only term we have to describe this set of game mechanics. To say that it can only be turn-based is outdated, we know now that this type of game works in a much broader range of gameplay styles.
5 months ago
Anonymous
random generation and permanent death is too broad to refer to a genre though, it's a gameplay structure that can be applied to almost any genre of game
5 months ago
Anonymous
Yet we always refer to games with this set of features as roguelikes or roguelites if it's more lenient, it just works.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Your moronic opinions don't change the definition.
>he game being silmuturnbased is literally the single most important factor of the genre
its one of the least important things about the genre
5 months ago
Anonymous
real-time shifts the game from being proactive to reflexive, it literally changes the entire game
you can't just turn a turn-based game into a real-time one without changing up it's very core
X-com stops being X-com if it was real time, same is true for Rogue
5 months ago
Anonymous
turn based matters yes, simultaneious turns doesn't
5 months ago
Anonymous
simultaneous turns does also matter in the sense that the game would slow down to a crawl too hard to be playable if the dozens of enemies on the map took their turns independently
5 months ago
Anonymous
Yes it does moron, try playing Rouge with an autoclicker firing a set key in the background to move turns every second. See how you like it.
the entire point of a roguelike is that it uses the turn based nature combined with extensive options and the risk of perma-death to make the player consider their every move and give them to the time to do so
There's no reason why you couldn't do this in a real time game, especially if the game has a pause feature. One of the greatest roguelikes I've ever played is FTL.
5 months ago
Anonymous
FTL aint a roguelike anon
and I love that game
but FTL is comparatively incredibly simplistic compared to for example Nethack, when it comes to options per turn
There's literally no reason to make Nethack real time, it would make the game actively worse in every possible way
remember, in FTL you're always fighting just 1 enemy at a time, while in a roguelike, you're not "fighting an enemy", there's no difference between in combat and out of combat mechanically, and there's nothing that forces you to actively fight an enemy at any point of the game
taking FTL again, it's impossible to do a pacifist run, and fighting as little enemies as possible makes the game impossible to complete
in Nethack it is a legit strategy to bypass as many enemies as you can, and bypassing enemies requires skill
5 months ago
Anonymous
There's no use pretending that FTL isn't a roguelike, the roguelike genre is pretty much set in stone as of now and regressing to an outdated definition is never going to happen.
5 months ago
Anonymous
its a roguelite
5 months ago
Anonymous
It says roguelike on their wikipedia page
5 months ago
Anonymous
the wikipedia page is wrong
5 months ago
Anonymous
No you're wrong, I know it's hard to accept but it is the truth.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Roguelike is one of the few game genres with an actual, official definition in writing, and FTL doesn't qualify
5 months ago
Anonymous
Definitions change, your definition is outdated just like the video game Rogue.
no good term exists because no one has ever bothered to make a good one that describes either what those very similar to Rogue are, nor one to describe those that are only taking some elements that Rogue uses.
"Roguelike" as a term, even the more-narrowly "Traditional Roguelike" is still stuck in the Doomclone era for the genre. And rather than come up with a term that very specifically describes the gameplay (notably the simultaneous turn taking on a tiled grid), they have spent the past decade getting hung up about some dumbass marketers who were way too successful at co-opting the term to instead mean "procgen with permadeath" games in the minds of the general public.
But in any case: procgen isn't actually a genre, it's a tool used to support the foundation of an actual genre. Spelunky is a platformer, Minecraft is a survival/crafting game, Deep Rock Galactic is a coop horde FPS, Nuclear Throne is a twinstick shooter. But it's extremely useful as a shorthand for the general public who are interested specifically in games that have run-based success stories that they can play for hours on end specifically because of that procgen and permadeath, regardless of the actual gameplay differences between them.
It's kind of a catch 22 but everyone involved in this is at fault for being moronic.
roguelike as a term did function pretty up until 2010
that's 30 years of the term being used without issue
it only became an issue with certain devs started misusing the term, either maliciously or accidentally
while initially it wasn't true
people did name their games roguelike to "shine a turd"
"it's not bad game design it's roguelike game design" when the devs included the barest minimum of procedural
To make money. It's easier for your game to stand out if you call it a roguelike than what it actually is and say it has some procedurial generation. Per example, Rogue Legacy purposefully misuses the term so that this indie platformer stood out in the sea of indie platformers.
Blatantly misleading customers for personal gain is something I'd consider malicious tbh.
5 months ago
Anonymous
They aren't misleading customers because the customers don't know either
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Victim blaming
I accept your concession
5 months ago
Anonymous
If I sell you I'm selling you a sprodoinker and you don't know what a sprodoinker is and you're still happy with the purchase, was I being malicious?
5 months ago
Anonymous
Sure, if your "sprodoinker" was actually a pile of shit and you went out of your way to call it that to hide the fact that you're selling the customer a pile of shit. It's the job of the seller to properly label his products so to not mislead his customers.
5 months ago
Anonymous
By that logic I can stretch, clutter, and obfuscate the truth with impunity as long as my targets were ignorant to begin with.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Being malicious is acting with the intent to harm someone
You may be muddying the use of the word but no person is actually being harmed
5 months ago
Anonymous
The act of deception is inherently malicious when perpetrated on the innocent.
5 months ago
Anonymous
theoretically maybe practically no
bending the truth might be preferable if it helps get the point across
5 months ago
Anonymous
The intent is also entirely different. Is deception really the point in that hypothetical or is it to assist understanding of the truth?
5 months ago
Anonymous
People who describe their Roguelites as Roguelikes just don't give a shit about differntiating between them, so it's not malicious
>Per example, Rogue Legacy purposefully misuses the term so that this indie platformer stood out in the sea of indie platformers.
The Rogue Legacy devs are literally the people who coined the term Roguelite, because they knew that their game is not a Roguelike. And they have in fact never once called their game a Rogulike.
Download Rogue Legacy 1's or Rogue Legacy 2's press kits and they are still to this day described by the devs as Roguelites. Never as Roguelikes.
Of course games journalists still calls the games Roguelikes instead for some reason.
then tell me anon, what fricking genre were the games that came before Rogue that fully meet the gameplay standards that is commonly understood to be "like Rogue"?
the term itself was useful, but it's only useful to people who actually played Rogue, a game from 1980 that predates when a majority of the gaming public were even born. It's not useful to point at something that they have nothing to form an understanding about. Most genres are at least diagetic so you can roughly understand what you're getting into by reading the genre on its own (yes there are awful stinkers like "character action", or "action rpg", but they don't rely on familiarity with a specific game).
It should have been a real genre name when there were enough games to justify establishing a genre in the first place. Just because it's worked for 30 years doesn't mean it should've been that way for all 30 of those years. Shackling it to this 1 game and elevating it on a pedestal is moronic.
That's the thing, I don't. And I don't have the kind of sway to get people unilaterally on board with changing it.
It's a problem of inertia. >can't change name because people are expecting the same name >because no one else is changing, I must stay the same too
no one wants to rip the goddamn bandage off because it requires a lot of effort to get people to understand it.
now if you want to know what I personally think a genre name should entail, it should describe the gameplay succintly.
What is currently "traditional roguelike" should have some means of clarifying that turns are taken simultaneously between the player and the rest of the world. Yes, this may broadly loosen the term to include things that aren't currently understood as "traditional", but it allows a shared heritage with things like tabletop board games that have simultaneous turn taking, and further narrowing of that genre can be applied based on any individual game's needs.
Meanwhile what is currently understood as "roguelite" or whatever bullshit the Berlingays are pushing for should instead be a descriptor subgenre that encapsulates the fact that it's only taking the procgen and/or permadeath inspired Rogue, and not anything else specifically. I mentioned earlier that a term that includes ProcGen might work but that's the sort of thing that'll only really take off if a lot of devs make that kind of push themselves, in a similar vain to how some of them have already started using "Roguelite" like it somehow clears up the confusion (it doesn't, it just comes off as elitist)
5 months ago
Anonymous
You could call them Randomly Generated Permanent Death games or RGPD and that would be descriptive, but nobody is gonna use it
I mean MOBA is a genre, Multiplayer Online Battle Arena, this means nothing
RPG is a genre and most RPGs involve no role playing
Genres just don't make sense
5 months ago
Anonymous
you're right that no one is realistically going to be using RGPD as a genre title, but with enough developers pulling that at once to basically redirect their respective communities and thus any dialogue regarding them, it's only really feasible then. And at least the acronym means something of actual impact unlike how muddied "RPG" has become after straying from it's tabletop roots
genres making sense would be nice though. it's a pipedream at this point. Only thing I can do as a peon customer is channel my autism on mongolian throat singing boards every now and then when this thread happens for the umpteenth time. At the very least I'm pleased that there's at least a consensus that the argument is fricking stupid and never should've gotten to this point in the first place.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>RPG is a genre and most RPGs involve no role playing
Not to open the can of worms that the discourse surrounding this genre.
But I am objectively correct on this topic so I will say my piece anyway.
The RPG genre is not about roleplaying. It's about simulation.
You can "roleplay" or play pretend in practically every videogame there is. Really get into the character of Mario the plumber when playing Mario 1. But it still won't and will never make Mario 1 an RPG.
What makes an RPG is the simulation and the simulation layer that are the RPG mechanics. If you the player aims and shoots a gun with your own own skills and abilities. Then it's not an RPG.
But if it's the player character aiming and shooting a gun with the player character's skills and abilities. Then it's an RPG.
And yes. This isn't all black and white. But the more the game is like the latter instead of like the former, the more of an RPG it is.
Even though Action RPGs exist, the genres of Action and RPG are fundamentally opposed to one another. One makes the other less. Making the combination something of a special genre.
But this is without a doubt what an RPG is. And it really has frickall to do with choices or playing pretend.
And even things like D&D has terribly railroaded premade adventure scenarios with premade characters that offer little to no choices. But it's still an RPG. Because it's the simulation that makes the RPG.
I will die on this hill.
5 months ago
Anonymous
roguelite was a term used by the earliest roguelite developers out of their own free will because they acknowledged they were inspired by rogue(likes) but deviated enough that they could not be called roguelikes
it was not elitist, it was a form of decency on part of the devs
problems only arose when other devs stopped that courtesy
problem is of course that the genre is both ancient and fairly niche, so there never was a true need for a different name because usually the players had an idea what a roguelike was already, or else the community surrounding the games informed them quickly
as long as it was only used by the niche games it was a fine term
the issue only became one when games that were drastically less niche started using the term erroneously because they wanted to highlight the fact they were procedural games, but didn't want to use the term procedural for whatever reason
"procedural" is mlsleading as well. "Randomly generated" would be better, but it also needs to have permadeath aswell as random generation, infact I'd say the permadeath was more important
5 months ago
Anonymous
part of the problem is that roguelikes are procedurally generated
a large part of the skill involved in making a roguelike is to properly develop your procedural generation algorithm, which by the way is genuinely hard and requires significant programming skills
the modern roguelites are randomly generated like you said, because most of them, instead of having a procedural algorithm instead have pre-made rooms or zones that are then randomly stitched together
procedural is important to the roguelike, and the arguements for the roguelites not using the term procedural exist, but they can't be used to justify roguelike instead
5 months ago
Anonymous
procedurally generated doesn't mean randomly generated, but that's just nitpicking really because all forms of procedural generation usually involve randomosity or else why would they bother
>roguelike as a term did function pretty up until 2010
That's horseshit. Roguebasin has existed since 07. And Roguebasin was created as a repository for roguelike games. Because there were already enough of them to justify such a repository, and they had existed for long enough for there to be a demand for such a thing.
Also bringing up the issue overlap; Rogue, the game that basically started the entire namesake of the "Roguelike" genre is basically one of the few "Dungeon Crawler" games in the genre, and by that technicality, then there are also plenty of non-turn based dungeon crawlers too. So unless nowadays, all dungeon crawlers are roguelikes by default then now there is further schisms in the term.
>roguelike >no meta progression elements >roguelite >has meta progression elements
always seemed to me like most people didn't know the difference because they've never played Rogue
Roguelike is defined by the Berlin interpretion
Roguelites just have procedurally generated levels and permanent death
You can have a Roguelike with meta progression and a Roguelite without
Roguelike is defined by the Berlin interpretion
Roguelites just have procedurally generated levels and permanent death
You can have a Roguelike with meta progression and a Roguelite without
Berlin interpretation is moronic and they contradict themselves immediately by saying it doesn't matter and something with almost none of the qualities can be a roguelike. So I choose to ignore it and judge the game on if it plays LIKE ROGUE or not
there are more autists arguing about the roguelite vs roguelike term distinction than there are actual roguelike (as in roguelike not roguelite) threads, let alone posters in said threads
That was some really stupid shit that some terribly misinformed people started pushing many years ago for some reason.
But they genuinely didn't know. And were relying on nothing but guess work, looking into something they had very little experience with and knew very little about.
I mean. You don't even need to be a roguelike elitist to realize how it doesn't add up. Because there are plenty of roguelites where you don't in fact keep any of your progress. And they don't suddenly become roguelikes because of that. There exists roguelites with metaprogression and roguelites without metaprogression.
The absence or presence of metaprogression is not what decides it.
We got other terms that cover those aspects, like dungeon crawler. What's unique to roguelikes is the combination of procedural generation and perma-death.
Procedural generation and perma-death are not unique to Roguelikes. Dungeon crawler typically is used to refer to games like Labyrnth of Refrain and Etrian Odyssey (first person perspective dungeon crawling)
5 months ago
Anonymous
>What's unique to roguelikes is the combination of procedural generation and perma-death.
Procedural generation, yes. Perma-death no. It really is not and has never been that unique to Rogue.
>uhh but it has to be simulturnbased and topdown and asci and rpg and blah blah-
I'm sick of this shit, everyone refers to games with proc-gen and permadeath as roguelikes now and that's that.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Wrong wrong wrong wrong
GET GATEKEPT GET GATEKEPT GET GATEKEPT GET GATEKEPT
5 months ago
Anonymous
You sound like a child complaining that the teacher didn't give him a better grade when he wrote down the wrong answers
>What's unique to roguelikes is the combination of procedural generation and perma-death.
Minecraft Ironman mode >procedural generation >permanent death
Behold, a Roguelike!
5 months ago
Anonymous
Yes Minecraft has an optional roguelike mode, big deal.
>What's unique to roguelikes is the combination of procedural generation and perma-death.
Procedural generation, yes. Perma-death no. It really is not and has never been that unique to Rogue.
I don't care to argue about semantics. What bothers me is the river if sewage comprised of the trend chasers and mediocre devs completely missing the point which is to create a fun fricking game irrespective of genre.
ultimately it is obvious to anyone with familiarity of both types of games that are called roguelikes that they are not nearly as similar to each other as the shared name would imply.
in the same sense that super metroid and uncharted 2 could both be called adventure games. we know that doing this is insincere and fails to address the major differentiating factors between the two titles. hence why metroid likes have ceded the action adventure game territory to sony games like uncharted and adopted a new moniker that entails the unique elements: metroidvania. we create genre names to make discussion and classification much easier and some kind of differentiating name between dcss and binding of isaac is necessary to anyone who's played both games. the lite like distinction could suffice but it doesn't have widespread adoption amongst the gaming public. we could call isaac a twinstick shooter with random levels and permadeath. we could call spelunky a platformer with random levels and permadeath. we could call dcss a simulturn top down rpg with random levels and permadeath. but we want shorter terms for discussions sake. hence roguelikes or roguelites. these terms should work for the only kind of people who ever want to talk about game particularities and genres, that is to say extreme nerds.
i am imagining a fire emblem title with randomly generated chapters and double the average number of gameplay mechanics and classes with the exchange of little to no story and i am salivating. give me a roguelite fire emblem and i will need nothing more.
thing is though, those later descriptions are also kind of necessary
Spelunky is a good example, because it's a platformer through and throughout
it uses procedural generation as a tool to make the game less about level-memorization and rather about application of platformer skills, but it's players are almost all platformer fans
there's more significant overlap between spelunky and mario fans than with spelunky and dcss
i 100% agree that spelunky players predominately come from a platform fan lineage. absolutely true. and a big reason for why we should fight for different labels between trad roguelikes and roguelites because there is rather small crossover in who is a fan of both. i mean i like both but im not the norm.
frankly i think if lites adopted an arcade moniker i would be totally onboard with that. arcade procgen platformer. arcade procgen twinstick shooter. it's intuitively understood arcade games have permadeath. trls could be arcade simulturn procgen top down rpgs, but then we notice the lack of brevity and revert back to roguelike. trls should be allowed to keep that moniker, it's the new kid on the block who needs to adopt a new name.
ok. fine. find an acronym that's descriptive and optionally catchy.
Simulturn Proc Gen RPG
SPGR
that should work. i think the longest commonly used acronym for games at this point is 4 characters (jrpg) so this works.
A game doesn't have to be a carbon copy of another game in order to be 'like' it, it can contain similar features to a large or lesser degree and it will still be like the other game in some capacity. Even if it's only the procedural generation and permadeath part.
Metroidvania doesn't have the term 'like' anywhere in it though. It's a combination of metroid and castlevania and it refers to the set of features common between the two games. Without those it wouldn't be a metroidvania.
i agree with you broadly but this is a fun thought experiment imo. thinking of a metroid like that shares no similarities with metroid is basically impossible.
>the term rogue like should refer to the aspects that were not at all unique to rogue instead of the aspects that were unique to rogue
If you’re going to be autistic about a word be autistic with the better definition
This image would be perfect if it weren't for the two boxes on the right >okay so it's not X, let's call it Y instead >NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO CALL IT ANYTHING
I think the problem is somebody changed one letter in Roguelike and thought it was snappy and clever. The words are too similar, so very few people are going to care to check if it's a k or a t. Say you made a first person stealth game where you don't shoot anything and called it a First Person Shhooter. Like "Shh", get it? Nobody gives a rat's ass about that h, it's still an FPS. Roguelike and Roguelite even sound the same, if you don't intentionally flex your face and draw attention to the T, people just assume you said like.
There should've just been a word for Procedural Permadeath. Call it PermGen, or Procedural Die-er. Hell, call it PP for all I care.
>There should've just been a word for Procedural Permadeath
You don't need one because that's not what defines Roguelikes. God it's like people calling Mario 64 a fricking Metroidvania because "well the 2d is not that important, it's a platformer where powerups allow you to find new things in old areas"
Well, what else ties together Slay the Spire, Noita, Nuclear Throne, and Receiver 2? What about Synthetik?
That's the kinda stuff that gets hit with the roguelike tag. You go back to the start when you die, and a robot put together the level chunks.
From what I can tell I sort of agree with you, it's stupid to compare those games to a top down turn based RPG, but those two factors are what people colloquially call "roguelike".
[...] >uhh but it has to be simulturnbased and topdown and asci and rpg and blah blah-
I'm sick of this shit, everyone refers to games with proc-gen and permadeath as roguelikes now and that's that.
This guy's right that people do call them that, but wrong in assuming the definition is correct.
Again, they need a new word for it.
because its fun seeing nerds get upset
>everyone i dont like is a nerd
Now you get it.
The only good rogue-like is Rogue (1988)
I have since been informed that it was released in 1980
Rogue is not a roguelike.
Yeah that's like calling Dark Souls a "soulslike".
this is actually the funniest bait i've ever read
Left 4 Dead 2 is pretty good
The only Doom clone is Doom (1995)
Casuals can't stand losing, so they need to get carried by permanent progression or else they won't buy your game
If you give a shit about this you're autistic. Severely autistic.
welcome to Ganker moron
>roguelike playerbase is really small
>people who didnt come from that playerbase needed a term to describe procedural generation games focused on runs so they used it
>even amongst roguelike players they cant even agree what the term even means "ugh its like rogue moron" but then cant define what being "like rogue" is (see berlin interpretation)
>nobody really gives a frick except turbo grogs screaming into the void
>trolls abuse the term because said grogs get very upset
>simultaneous turn-based
>tile based
That's the bare minimum
>procedural generation games focused on runs
That's just an arcade game. Like packman, asteroids or even donkey kong. Fug.
I didnt realize the levels in pacman and donkeykong or procedurally generated wow the more you know
>(see berlin interpretation)
That was never about describing what is or is not a roguelike to begin with and anyone who uses it as an argument about this sub-genre is an idiot.
you could call for example, BoI by an actual good descriptor: procedural twinstick shooter
the only reason people used roguelike is because it came with a sort of "prestige" attached to it
and effectively they wanted to let players feel as if they played a roguelike without having to put in the effort required to play a roguelike
>the only reason people used roguelike is because it came with a sort of "prestige" attached to it
This is probably why a bunch of people get mad when you say that a game, which is obviously not a roguelike, isn't a roguelike. They're made it some kind of badge of honor, but I have no idea why they would even bother because being a roguelike doesn't make something a good game. Most roguelikes suck.
nah, it's more that fans of the genre are mad that the term was first turned into a badge of honor, then a hollow badge of honor, which in turn made actually using the term for it's intended purpose: to describe a series of games with similar playstyles, worthless
effectively, it's become near impossible for
A: to find a new roguelike
B: for new actual roguelikes to gain prominence because they get swallowed up by a tide of shovelware using the term "roguelike" to hide that they are shovelware
ontop of this, one of the defining parts of a roguelike is that the only difference between a new player and an experienced player is experience and knowledge
a lot of roguelites using the term "roguelike" fundamentally break this by having meta-progression, either allowing themselves to be brute-forced with passive upgrades or artificially lengthening play time by making it mathematically impossible to win your first run
and that latter has another issue which compounds point B above: traditional roguelikes are getting bad reviews because they do not include meta-progression, further burying them among shovelware, despite a lack of meta-progression being a key aspect to the genre
This.
A bunch of greedy morons are stealing words and meanings from smaller communities and then on top of that they bash said communities for reacting.
>muh meta progression
does it play Like Rogue?
then its a roguelike
Elona is more of a roguelike than permadeath platform #2470
a game that makes you stronger after every death does not play as rogue
the idea behind a lack of meta-progression is that every run matters, every run has an equal chance to win and every death is just as big a setback as the last
that's core to the roguelike identity, there's no grinding
>words words words
but does it play Like Rogue
As in
Do you control the character
and fight enemies
like
rogue
>do you control the character and fight enemies
Street Fighter II is a roguelike
seriously the fact you think roguelikes are about fighting enemies shows you've never played a proper roguelike
but does street fighter 2 play like Rogue?
Have you ever played Rogue?
Have you even just played Crawl at least?
I didn't start with Rogue no, I started with Nethack
and no, roguelikes are not about fighting enemies, fighting enemies is pretty incidental to the actual point of the game: to explore and survive the dungeon
>and no, roguelikes are not about fighting enemies
the WAY in which you fight things
being like rogue
rogue-like you could say
>obtuse ass moron trying to say all games are the same genre because of the word fight
no anon, the point is that fighting enemies is not the point of a roguelike
getting past the dungeon's obstacles, the enemies being a subset of that, is the point
it's why games like BoI are NOT roguelikes, because they artificially force you into rooms where you have to fight enemies to continue
on top of that they automatically identify items for you because god forbid you actually have some risk-reward to picking something up
okay but do you get past the dungeons obstacles
in a manner
like
rogue?
it depends, how did you get past the obstacle
if you got past it through your ingame actions in the style of rogue then yes
however if you only passed to obstacle because you gained a 50% innate damage boost from spending 2000 ROGUE COINS prior to starting the run, then no, you did not get past the obstacle in a manner like rogue
so your game looks and plays
kinda
LIKE
this?
a little LIKE rogue maybe?
if you gain any advantage to your run that does not stem from your action during the run then
you
did
not
do
it
like
rogue
Wow amazing thanks for showing me how the top game plays more Like Rogue than the bottom!
moron
permadeath is core to roguelikes anon
this isn't a binary choice, the answer to "which of these 2 games is a roguelike" can be neither
do you think that xcom becoms more like rogue when you turn ironman mode on compared to when it's off?
Fricking delusional shitbag you are.
no, you need to meet several minimum characteristics to be a roguelike
there's no being "more or less" if you don't meet the bare minimum
permadeath is such a bare minimum, and any game that is not intrinsically designed around perma-death is not a roguelike
Elona isn't designed around permadeath, it's a Roguelike.
The only actual qualifier to be a roguelike is simulturn RPG
>The only actual qualifier to be a roguelike is simulturn RPG
No, the qualifier is being like Rogue
The more like Rogue it is the more of a Roguelike it is
>permadeath is such a bare minimum, and any game that is not intrinsically designed around perma-death is not a roguelike
So you would straight up argue that ToME is not a roguelike?
Isn't that just a dungeon crawler then? There's literally no reason to call it anything else.
It has permadeath. But it's a toggle you select on or off at the start of a run.
And that toggle isn't a genre toggle. That's ridiculous. Provided you don't die, you wouldn't even notice whether or not you had the toggle on or off.
>god forbid you actually have some risk-reward to picking something up
Yes that does in fact sound awful in a game where you automatically equip everything you pick up. moron.
yes which is why a game where you automatically equip everything you pick up is not a roguelike
because roguelikes have risk-reward and seek to maximize player agency
games that intentionally take away player agency, like BoI, are not roguelikes, they have a completely different design philosophy than a roguelike
>Player agency
>rogue
he cannot be serious.
compared to 99% of games that call themselves "roguelikes" it has immense player agency yes
the lack of agency in rogue does not stem from intentional design but rather from the game being really really old
>the lack of agency in rogue does not stem from intentional design but rather from the game being really really old
So you admit it doesn't have any, thanks for playing.
it has more player agency than BoI, the poster-child of a game that calls itself a roguelike without being one
but please do point me out where rogue locks you in a room until you defeat the enemy which can only be done by reducing their HP to 0
Everyone calls them roguelites now, what the frick are you idiots talking about? No one cares about the "prestige" of playing a roguelike, that's a schizo-tier conspiracy theory. Most of the people who play these games haven't even heard of Rogue.
You really need to leave Ganker more.
>Everyone calls them roguelites now
This is all I needed, thanks for the laugh.
see
I don't give a frick about semantics or how moronic Steam's tag system is. I just wanted to make fun of you for thinking that people are playing Binding of Isaac, Rogue Legacy, Hades, Risk of Rain, Dead Cells, Darkest Dungeon, etc because casuals need to feel the PREEESTIIIIGE of playing a roguelike.
TOUCH.
GRASS.
NOW.
>I don't give a frick about semantics or how moronic Steam's tag system is.
There's no semantics. You said most people just call them roguelites, and that is evidently untrue.
steams tag system is literally the entire point you moron
>Steam's tag system
It's user tags. If you have a problem with it, then you have a problem with the average conclusions of what people think.
>Everyone calls them roguelites now
a cursory glance of new releases tagged as roguelike on steam shows that 99% of games released under the tag roguelike are not roguelikes
Wrong. I refuse to use the term Roguelite. I simply will not use it. I will also never use the term MOBA. It's either ASShomosexualS or ARTS
>roguelike is because it came with a sort of "prestige"
Lmao man the stuff you read on this site sometimes. Autist really cant fathom that 99.99% of people just dont care
back in the days that was effectively how it was used, these days no longer true because of how it's hollowed out
well, prestige might not be the right word, but roguelike did at one point (before you joined this site, possibly before you finished middle school) describe a fairly small number of games, each with fairly large average quality per game
there was an expectation that the developers had fairly high attention to detail, precisely because it was such a niche genre
however this got turned around, with developers rather than polishing their game because it was a roguelike, instead calling their game a roguelike to give it the illusion of polish
to make a food analogy it's a bit the equivalent of quality labels having become completely worthless because a billion different quality labels were created and every single item has at least 1 quality label
>the only reason people used roguelike is because it came with a sort of "prestige" attached to it
Prestige in what perspective exactly?
Turn-based game is by definition not a "hardcore" genre, since it boils down to player figuring out a correct solution to what to do without any time limits, which is trivial in an age when search engines exist.
Fast top-down action games calling which r-word gets autistics asshurt by definition provide more gamer cred than that, since they check precision, reaction speed and quick decision-making.
>which is trivial in an age when search engines exist.
Same could be said about any game.
Yet more classic roguelikes still are quite difficult to win.
The prestige is pretty similar to Dark Souls games.
prestige was perhaps a wrong term to use
it's more that roguelikes once upon a time had a fairly high baseline level of quality, often with small but dedicated devs
knowing this, other devs started to try and "shine their turd" by calling it a roguelike
problem is of course that this rapidly lead to such an oversaturation the term stopped having any quality to it, but was still used, erroneously
so it had a double effect on the actual roguelikes: it left them without a term to describe themselves, and it made them now associate with shovelware
you are aware that among the roguelike community there always was a sense of self-imposed limits to search engine use
roguelikes were some of the first online games out there, old enough that the net- part of nethack does not stand for internet, because the latter didn't exist yet
information always was available, if you wanted to ruin the game for yourself, there never was any sense of the information being kept "secret"
only a sense of avoiding spoilers
that has not changed in the age of search engines, and the fact that I have to explain that to you makes it fairly clear you've not really played any proper roguelike
>and effectively they wanted to let players feel as if they played a roguelike without having to put in the effort required to play a roguelike
moron thinks playing rogue has prestige kek. Here's a more accurate description of what happened : Game devs wanted to describe their new game in the parts of the ideas that they took from permadeath games without it being as timewasting and stupid to play.
Rogue and actual permadeath games are terrible games where most of the successful players either cheat to give themselves meta progression or look up guides on how to not die, basically never playing the game how it's meant to be played.
Having to invest a 100 hours to figure out obscure mechanics that instak-kill you isn't skill or prestigious.
getting turned to stone by a medusa because you didn't cover your eyes isn't an obscure mechanic, it's common sense and you should have thought of that before you blundered in like a moron
>prestige
there is zero prestige to playing glorified spreadsheets, go outside and touch grass
even action roguelites have more "prestige" attached to them, because at least the higher levels of difficulty require good reflexes, skill, game knowledge and improvisation, and not just memorizing information from a table you found on a wiki page
action games don't really have as much improvisation as proper roguelikes though
who didnt come from that playerbase needed a term to describe procedural generation games focused on runs so they used it
nah you're an idiot. shit was only used to describe any game with permadeath at first. then it became a marketing term for literal morons such as yourself to sell dogshit games like rogue legacy
and most games that call themselves roguelike these days don't even have true permadeath because of meta-progression
>berlin interpretation
Seeing big loud words like these makes clueless observer thing like you're discussing quantum physics or esoteric philosophy there lmao. Except you don't, and this comes off as an unreasonable bloating of a completely worthless subject to quantum physics levels of importance. And you homosexuals ask why people frick with you, it would have been strange if they didn't.
who didnt come from that playerbase needed a term to describe procedural generation games focused on runs so they used it
But this is not an explanation.
Ok they needed a term for it. Why use a term of an already existing genre from an already existing sub culture? Even from a purely egotistical perspective, that makes it's just inefficient. They've invited this kind of shitflinging discourse. For no good reason.
youre assigning malice to people not giving a frick.
>rouge-like
>rouge-lite
>metroidvania
>skyrim-esque
>earthbound inspired
>souls like
god i hate modern video game genere names
>rouge
I want to frick her
>metroidvania
This one fricks me the most because in 100% of the cases they're just ripping off symphony of the night with no Metroid. The only exceptions that I'm aware of are axiom verge and a robot named fight
that bait is marvellous
>post genuine opinion
>bait
Offer some examples or have a nice day.
the game is literally assetswapped metroid moron
All right tell the class what
>The only exceptions (to games copying symphony of the night and not Metroid) that I'm aware of are axiom verge and a robot named fight
means, and why it isn't saying that Axiom Verge is a Metroid rip off.
>100% of the cases they're just ripping off symphony of the night with no Metroid.
Metroidvania was just coined to describe the Castlevania's that play like Metroid. So really if we only use the genre term to exclusively describe gameplay then all Metroidvania's should actually be Metroid-like
Apostrophe+s doesnt denote plurals
Except nobody actually gives a shit about Metroid, and Castlevania popularized the subgenre for all the indie devs making spinoffs, so Metroidvania makes more sense as it pays respect to Metroid while also acknowledging people actually mean SotNlike.
I played axiom verge the other day
It is without a doubt one of the worst metroidvanias I've ever played. Infinite weapons that do absolutely nothing of value
Graphics are horrible to look at, especially the secret rooms
The only challenge in those secret rooms is fighting the seizures
Chock full of forgettable mechanics that you barely use, and when you do need to use them you're left trying to figure out which one to use since they all basically do the same thing
robot named fight pissed me off too much. i'm so sick of roguelite mechanics. just make an arcade mode next time please i don't want to die 50 times just to get a decent start
>i don't want to die 50 times just to get a decent start
The hell are you talking about? The first run is the easiest one since you don't have any alternate routes. Its literally just super metroid.
dunno, uninstalled 3 hours in and got my refund
>morons wonder why the most moronic genre names ever get misused
the like term is def stupid, but back then it did make sense
and there were a lot less morons playing vidya
All of these make perfect sense if you're not moronic.
They require you to know how specific games play. While good genres don't. FPS isn't going to be confusing to anyone who knows what words mean.
But Rogue-like doesn't mean shit. To know what Rogue-like means, you have to play Rogue. It's why we stopped calling all FPS games, Doom-clones. Enough time had passed, and people weren't playing Doom anymore.
You're silly. Call of Duty and Portal are both FPS. they have very little overlap. rogue-lite/ke tells you what the gameplay loop will be like in ways that a more superficial genre wouldn't.
>Call of Duty and Portal are both FPS
Correct.
>they have very little overlap
No, they have a lot of overlap. Both are in the first person perspective, both have the primary gameplay for shooting things, both having the primary deaths from fall damage and bullets.
>rogue-lite/ke tells you what the gameplay loop will be like in ways that a more superficial genre wouldn't.
No, they tell you nothing, because Rogue doesn't tell you what you do in the game. If I never heard of Rogue before, I'd assume it was a Thief type game, where you go around sneaking, stealing, and stabbing people with daggers.
>both have the primary gameplay for shooting things, both having the primary deaths from fall damage and bullets.
This is incredibly reductive and disingenuous to a point of being outright misleading and you know it.
Not at all. The gameplay requires the same skills. You need to know how to aim, where to shoot, you need to know how/where you can safely fall to, you need to know how to avoid enemy bullets.
All sorts of skills are transferable from CoD to Portal or from Portal to CoD.
Not all of the skills will be relevant, but quite a bit, including all the basics can be gained from one and applied to the other.
If you want to be even more specific, they both have singleplayer levels, broken up by storybeats, loading screens. and mission selection screens.
Also being familiar with the tropes and fundamentals of genres means that we often have a distorted view of what's normal and what's novel. Portal, COD, Doom, and even Minecraft have a lot more in common with each other than they do with any non-FPS. We're just perceptive to the differences because we've committed their control schemes, their user interfaces, their pacing, to muscle memory. Show someone whose gaming experience starts and stops with Candy Crush and they're going to think they're all the same thing, in the same way that your grandparents thought any vaguely animal cartoon thing was Pokemon.
It still baffles me that dual analog was once treated as some crazy idea that wouldn't catch on, especially when PC already had the same control setup but better with keyboard for movement and mouse for the camera. The real shitty part is that there's barely any innovation past dual analog, so aiming on consoles is still shit
On the one hand, yeah, it seems obvious. On the other hand, survivorship bias is a b***h. There was a time when everyone thought waggle (Wii, PSMove, Kinect, etc.) was THE gaming scheme of the future. Before that we were going through some radical shifts in controller design. Remember the bighueg Dreamcast/XBOX controllers? Remember the fricking three-handed N64 controller? On PCs, remember when everything used your F-keys, and now nothing does? Hell, even numpads have fallen out of keybind fashion because so many people have 70%s or laptops.
No it doesnt
Roguelite in itself doesnt convey any meaning at all.
All of those are shit.
I’m unironically working on a souls-like castlevania rougelike
>rouge
If I see as much as ONE of those terms on either your game synopsis or tags, I'm not even pirating your fricking game. It's that simple. Have your own ideas.
I hate Earthbound-inspired because I remember getting lost in Earthbound in the world, trying to find where to go. Earthbound-inspired games don't have that. Literally 90% of the game isn't part of the game.
earthbound is a very linear game anon
you only got lost in it because you were a child at the time
Maybe so but I remember it was hard to figure out WHERE to go. That's what I mean by lost. Modern games have open world where you know where to go. Earthbound I got lost trying to find the next objective and it was fun trying to discover that, it was what stayed with me.
Game developers have learned a lot about how to guide the player over the years, and they learned that through laborious trial and error. Not all those lessons are good (yellow paint ledges), but there's been a lot of manhours dedicated to saving gamers from themselves.
I'm reminded of the developer commentary for Half Life 2, where they mention that some playtesters got stuck in a looping tunnel for like an hour. They just removed the loop for the release.
>I'm reminded of the developer commentary for Half Life 2, where they mention that some playtesters got stuck in a looping tunnel for like an hour. They just removed the loop for the release.
Should've just removed the playtester, from life.
>harry potter-like
>lord of the rings-esque
-esque
you just made this one up you gay
lol we've even seen the resurgence of Doom-clones
Those genre names are simply more descriptive than garbage like "Action" or "Shooter".
The "true" definition does not have nearly enough new games to justify its use. It's like if people got mad at calling real time role-playing games RPGs, because all RPGs used to be turn-based.
>The "true" definition does not have nearly enough new games to justify its use
We have the term MOBA and there's only 2 MOBA games that matter
there's hundreds of Roguelikes that people actually play
Because caring about the meaning of words is gay and its funny watching people have autistic meltdowns when they can't handle the natural evolution of language. Sometimes I make up words or say things wrong on purpose.
>rogue-lite
>souls-like
>metroidvania
>bamham
>Early Access Open World Survival with crafting
shit sounds good where do i download
>ah yes, I will play Hades so I feel the PRESTIGE of playing a roguelike, a genre with so much PRESTIGE that I MUST play a game that is "pretending" to be one
- ideas thought up by the utterly deranged
I've seen a lot of people brag about completing hades, only to then watch them admit they could only complete it after getting all the meta-buffs and using the most blatantly overpowered unlock-only weapon
the game should be fair about what it is: a procedural hack'n slash
>instead of using 1 word to describe a group of games that are all deliberately following a specific design philosophy, we should use three words that barely mean anything
You guys are so moronic while thinking you're so smart/cultured. How embarrassing for you.
>still avoiding the main issue
See above.
None of you are bright.
NO ONE CARES ABOUT ROGUE
THERE IS NO PRESTIGE
TOUCH
GRASS
There is prestige
If you haven’t ascended in Nethack you are basically not a real gamer and will forever be second rate
the term roguelike does not describe hades at all, it only describes at most generous, the procedural part
so you still have to call it under your use of the term a roguelike hack'n slash to differentiate it from roguelike platformers and roguelike twinstick shooters and roguelike survival games
so at this point, just use the term procedural instead which is more accurate, because roguelike already has a few extra definitions as part of it
it's at minimum a turn based, topdown tile movement rpg with procedurally generated levels
if your game can't meet that minimum then yes, it's not a roguelike and instead should be described with the term procedural
>reddit spacing with no capitalization or punctuation
Who do you expect to read this garbage when you don't have the modicum of respect for your potential audience to format it properly?
hi anon, did you know that 100% of people who get upset at supposed "reddit spacing" joined this site after 2016, and came from reddit?
merry christmas
I b***hed about reddit spacing in 2014 thougheverbiet
and how did you know it was "reddit" spacing?
like, what's reddit about it?
I called it reddit because that kind of spacing annoys me
Because seperating sentances.
Like this.
Takes up twice as much space
While saying half as much as a regular post
so you automatically think about reddit so much that anything which annoys you is reddit?
why do you care so much about reddit anon? why is it constantly on your mind?
I call it reddit because it pisses you off (hence you replying)
>inb4 I dont actually care
if you care enough to reply youre jimmies were definitely rustled
I'm replying because I like the irony, and pointing out the irony, of the fact that the people who screech loudest about reddit, are in fact reddit people using this site
>STOP FORMATTING TEXT IT ANNOYS ME
Go frick yourself Black person homosexual. I am entirely sure that this shitty meme was launched to lower quality of discussion on this site. Nobody is going to read 2k characters post written as a single continuous sheet of text, however, if author would format it and separate it in parts for better readability, there will be lobotomized chimps like you screeching about reddit. Which should create a communication culture with people being actively discouraged to type anything longer than a twatter post.
You know what you can do to split your post into paragraphs? Press enter.
Once.
that doesn't split into paragraphs, that just makes a new sentence
gotta press it twice for that anon
like this
A dot and a space makes a new sentence. Like this.
Also how about that password? You don't even know what I'm talking about, do you.
see
You newbies need to learn to properly space your posts.
What's the password, reddit tourist?
If you press enter only once, it looks terribly formatted. Different screen dimensions will result in different line lengths, leading to visually displeasing formatting on posts.
It's also an ancient way of formatting text. Not only online, but for school projects as well. I remember using "reddit spacing" in middle school 2 decades ago. Legibility is important, and separating your paragraphs is important.
this isnt reddit spacing because each group of text is its own paragraph. Its reddit spacing when literally every sentance/little thought the writter has is seperated by a line break for no reason. It reads like shit
the posts you were replying to had that anon
read up, check your eyes
also stop using reddit, it's bad for your brain
I dont use reddit and the closest Ive ever gotten to using it was imgur back in 2014-2015ish (I dont remember when the full redditifcation of that site caused me to leave)
if you've never reddit then why do you know so much about it, that every argument you make always devolves into using reddit?
methinks a little anon be lying his arse off
idk what the point of this arguement is
>damn this game looks like shit
>ugh how do you know what shit looks like anon? Do you look at shit all day? I think you secretly like to eat shit
so define now
what makes something "reddit"
if they talk too similarly to how anons talk on /tg/ or Ganker is usually the best indicator
>>and others I don't care (you)
This reddit spacing insult is just a smoke screen of the real issue , same as anime website.
You look like a moron if you have every sentence spaced out like this.
doubly so if you can't even be fricked to capitalize/punctuate them
Now, if you have a paragraph (of a few sentences) and want to chunk them out with double spaces, go ahead. This is how you should. If we look at what those screencaps, they separated spaces by ideas, not just sentences (too excessive for my taste).
you look like a bigger moron because literally the only insult you know is "reddit"
you need to actively frame something in is this reddit or not for your monkey brain to get its dopamine
that's literally all that happens in your brain: a simple on-off switch of "is this reddit"
why are you getting so rustled over this? Methinks the lady doth protest too much
it's just funny watching the little monkey brain try to comprehend, that people who don't use reddit don't care about it
unlike you
>dude Im not a redditor
>STALKER CHILD I WILL NOT TOLERATE YOU IMBECILIC MONKEY BRAIN GENERATING DOPAMINE BY CALLING ME A REDDITOR STALKER CHILD BABY NEWBORN APE
look at the israelite, how he recoils at being named
Shut the frick up homosexuals I'm clearly someone else. The other guy was clearly pressing on the reddit angle, I'm saying it doesn't matter. And in addition, hmm, why would the same guy (you) the same post of
???
Also to circle back my point
>didn't address one point to my argument
>just circles back around to reddit
This is why I say reddit's a smokescreen, same as homosexuals getting upset over anime being posting and you get the whole ANIME WEBSITE debate. For that debate, everyone's focusing on "this site is for weebs!", when the real answer is that it's an image, stop getting so irate over it.
And for reddit spacing or double spacing or whatever you wanna call it, you shouldn't spam it like periods. I don't even know if reddit uses it, here's my history on reddit. I just know it's annoying as shit and you don't have to do it.
anon, why did it take you half an hour to delete your history?
deleting website history is literally basic shit
I have librewolf that automatically deletes history but I can say most certainly I didn't try to delete my history.
How about going back and saying why my argument is wrong, why I'm a homosexual, the logical blunders I made, instead of just repeating yourself?
You think I'm some samegayging moron, surely you can just say I'm wrong, right?
you seem to think that spacing your sentences is reddit
which is moronic
the original post you called out as being "reddit spacing" didn't even have "reddit spacing" it has paragraphs
I'm clearly trying to talk to both sides.
Again, how about just say where I'm wrong? All you've done is
>accuse me of goal posting, despite being clearly a new person
>accuse me of going to reddit, despite proving I don't
Now you're just focusing on who I (you). Are we gonna sing and dance around this or are you going to say why my argument was wrong?
you're not taking both sides, you're either shielding your own posts by samegayging or else you're shielding someone else's posts which is kinda pathetic
you only showed up with a "both sides are bad" after the other anon (or you) gained 0 support and multiple opponents
You forgot to reddit space there, but remembered to purposefully omit capitalization and full stops.
that game contains just as much "reddit spacing" as the original post you replied to
also it's pretty obvious you're samegayging
>Goalpost moving
You're grasping at straws. Anons were double-spacing their paragraphs since before you were old enough to use the internet.
What's the traditional password to Ganker game servers, you have 2 minutes.
But you were wrong, that was the entire point because you said this wasn't the case but it is.
of using 1 word to describe a group of games that are all deliberately following a specific design philosophy
But roguelike does not describe anything about games like Hades, since you mentioned it. Their design philosophies are nothing alike.
>ASShomosexualS
Because only the most autistic of spergs get upset over it and its funny watching them seethe
>Rogue Legacy, a game that helped popularize roguelites started the term roguelite
>Barely anyone used it
I hate this gay earth, and the moronic sheep that prevail the gaming industry.
%3D%3D
Nobody gives a shit. Spelunky and BoI were always roguelikes, people only started the "roguelite" pedantry much later so that they could be annoying about it
BoI was called out back in it's day on first release for not being a roguelike anon
and Spelunky very much was and always has been a platformer
Shit like this is why we need gatekeeping.
Autists who couldn't handle a word expanding its meaning lost their minds over people referring to games that had elements of the game Rogue, instead of games that were mostly copy pasted Rogue.
They were pushing Procedural Dungeon Crawler or something close to that, before the world settled for Rogue-Lite.
I don't give a frick about those autistic freaks, so they're all Roguelikes to me, and that's what I call them all.
a word can expand enough that it loses it's meaning, which yes, can be infuriating
I mean, if that's okay then it's also okay to expand it even further
CoD is a roguelike after all
>can be infuriating
Only for English teachers, ESLs, and autists. Everyone else is cool with it, and do it naturally.
>if that's okay then it's also okay to expand it even further
Naturally.
>CoD is a roguelike after all
Doesn't adhere to either definition, Like or Lite. You'd be quite challenged to convince others to adopt such a definition, but technically possible.
CoD has a perma-death mode thus it's a roguelike, it adheres to the definition
It was always a meaningless term.
snowflake chuds can't handle inclusivity. Yes Rogue Legacy is a roguelike. Deal with it chuddy.
Trump lost
Nazis lost
Love won
>Roguelike
A niche subgenre that describes a specific type of game where the player is expected to make decisions for every single action he may want to take, including moving and doing nothing
>Roguelite
Buzzword
>morons missuse metroidvania all the time
>nobody gives a frick
>morons missuse roguelike
>AIIIIIIIEEEEEE THEYRE LITERALLY ERASING OUR CULTURE
>Roguelike
>Bullet Hell
>Metroidvania
Is this the unholy trinity of tag abuse?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"""RPG"""
I stop giving a shit both here and IRL because it's very simple to say roguelite instead of roguelike. But people don't want to be correct/you can't tell someone "you're a moron" and expect them to change.
is CDDA a roguelike? I always see it as not, it's an open world game with roguelike mechanics. I play it a bunch but it focused on survival, not dungeon crawling. The big change in focus is why I think it's not, but I'm curious what Gankerermin think.
>rouge-like
Uhhh we already have a name for that and its called pink
Because genre names only exist to give people an idea what a game is like. People who pretend that they have any point beyond that let alone are 'objective truths' are moronic
Because it's funny to frick with Chris-chan tier autismos who care about that shit. Shoundn't have been so unreasonably anal about it, nobody would have cared.
Because it sound cool and le hardcore so they usurped the name for profit.
The only good roguelike is brogue
>cdda
not good and not a roguelike
these are the same kinds of gays that get butthurt over categorizing electronic music
>Binding of Isaac
Roguelike
>Spelunky
Platforming Roguelike
>Darkest Dungeon
RPG Roguelike
>Slay the Spire
Deckbuilding Roguelike
Simple as
>shit vs crap
>be me and volunteering at some summer camp for abused and neglected children a few years ago
>kids are talking about videogames and bring up roguelikes like enter the gungeon and Spelunkey
>actually kids did you know those are called roguelites and roguelikes need to feature a grid based map and ascii graphics
>kids half my age sneer at me like i'm a shitstain and walk away
FRICK YOU FRICK YOU FRICK YOU Ganker FOR MAKING ME THIS AUTISTIC THIS SHIT STILL HAUNTS ME DAILY.
The children were right to make fun of you.
based kids not giving a frick about your dumb ass
I know they were
Holy frick post it /rlg/
Don't argue with people about getting definitions wrong. They don't care to.
Statistically, almost all of us worship the wrong God or not even have one. You don't go to a Church/Masjid/subreddit and try to correct their beliefs because tehy won't listen.
>They don't care to.
They should. Maybe this world wouldn't be so shit if they actually bothered researching stuff they talk about.
>abused and neglected children
>but still capable of acting like brats
Yeah. They're gonna grow up well...
would a proc gen blobber be a roguelike?
If you show what is traditionally called a Roguelike to the average person who plays video games, and ask them to identify its genre, all it takes is them having played something meteorically popular like Pokemon to identify it as an RPG. No further detail will be needed, in their mind. Everything beyond that falls into describing the specific gameplay, same as some racing games having items and some not.
The one part of roguelikes that dangles outside of "normal RPG stuff", the part these people can latch on to, is the fact that the game is meant to be played in disposable, arcade-esque "runs", rather than a long campaign with frequent saving and occasional loading.
There's an alternate timeline out there where we call them "Arcade RPGs" and that's fairly amusing to me.
If you have the dodge roll combat, you're just a soulslite. You need incomprehensible loading screen-based storytelling to be a soulslike.
really good thread OP, was keen to discuss reddit spacing today instead of video games.
which games are soulslikes and which are soulslites?
>Soulslikeliteroguebornering
That video is beyond fricking terrible and I hate it for spreading misinformation.
What kind of post-hoc attempts at understanding the terms from a perspective of ignorance, led people to think that the existence of metaprogression was the thing that defined roguelites and that this is what decides whether or not a game is a roguelite or a roguelike?
That's not it. Roguelikes are a distinct and easily recognizable genre. It's nothing like roguelites. And roguelites don't even need to have metaprogression.
This is why I hate arguing on Ganker.
Not one post
Not one
Just saying "you're dumb because (draws from a hat)"
Every argument post chain that goes longer than 4 becomes shit. It's time to take my leave and play CDDA
>CDDA
not a roguelike
Jokes on you I literally said it wasn't a roguelike earlier.
>but I am curious what Gankerermin think.
If someone would argue that CDDA isn't a roguelike. I would argue against that. But I wouldn't be mad at them the same way as I am with all the people who insist on calling games that clearly aren't roguelikes by any possible stretch of the imagination, roguelikes even though they aren't.
But my argument for CDDA is more of the kind that Donkey Kong 64 is both a 3D Platformer and a Collectathon. And one does not invalidate the other.
The Burnout series are still racing games even though they don't take place outside of traditional race tracks or follow traditional racing rules.
Like. One can argue that CDDA is an open world game with roguelike mechanics. Citing that CDDA has no real focus on dungeon crawling.
And I can kind of respect that perspective even though I don't share it. But consider this. If CDDA was an open world game with FPS mechanics. We really would call it an FPS. If it was first person and you ran around with guns, pointed and shot like in an FPS.
And it's not as if CDDA has no dungeon crawling. What with the multi floor:d research facilities and such.
not sure anon
don't know how roguelike being a game that plays like rogue is so hard for some people to grasp
there are some bangers out here these days though
Reminder that the reason why roguelike keeps getting misused is because of moronic journos and secondaries calling any game with permadeath a roguelike.
I mentioned it before in a previous thread, there isn't a better term for it that would fit without overlapping into too many unrelated things. Most other genres tend to have more directly defined terms that explains them and yet roguelikes don't in the way that is consistent.
Then say if you don't like what the term "roguelite" or "roguelike" is, outside of the "traditional" games similar to it, what would one call it? Try to think of a term that is 7 words or less at least.
for roguelite or any game that's not a true roguelike procedural with permadeath + whatever genre they actually are fits
The term for games that aren't roguelikes yet incorporate roguelike elements or inspiration from them. Was always roguelite.
So why not actually use that term? Instead of calling games that clearly aren't roguelikes, roguelikes.
Like I fricking loathe that "action roguelike" is even a term that people have started using. That's a fricking oxymoron. 100%, undeniably, of all roguelikes, are turn based. Simulturn even.
>Like I fricking loathe that "action roguelike" is even a term that people have started using
This, it's akin to saying that a game is a "turn based RTS". Only a complete moron wouldn't understand the problem with such a self contradictory label
If you give Rogue real time combat it doesn't stop being like Rogue.
It literally does
Roguelike doesn't mean turn-based, turn-based means turn-based.
>Roguelike doesn't mean turn-based
It literally does anon, it's part of the definition.
The most important and unique part of the definition is what happens on death in these types of games, Roguelike is really the only term we have to describe this set of game mechanics. To say that it can only be turn-based is outdated, we know now that this type of game works in a much broader range of gameplay styles.
random generation and permanent death is too broad to refer to a genre though, it's a gameplay structure that can be applied to almost any genre of game
Yet we always refer to games with this set of features as roguelikes or roguelites if it's more lenient, it just works.
Your moronic opinions don't change the definition.
Yes it does, you brain damaged monkey. The game being silmuturnbased is literally the single most important factor of the genre
>he game being silmuturnbased is literally the single most important factor of the genre
its one of the least important things about the genre
real-time shifts the game from being proactive to reflexive, it literally changes the entire game
you can't just turn a turn-based game into a real-time one without changing up it's very core
X-com stops being X-com if it was real time, same is true for Rogue
turn based matters yes, simultaneious turns doesn't
simultaneous turns does also matter in the sense that the game would slow down to a crawl too hard to be playable if the dozens of enemies on the map took their turns independently
Yes it does moron, try playing Rouge with an autoclicker firing a set key in the background to move turns every second. See how you like it.
i already do that because im not a casual
Sure you do, kid.
I disagree.
the entire point of a roguelike is that it uses the turn based nature combined with extensive options and the risk of perma-death to make the player consider their every move and give them to the time to do so
There's no reason why you couldn't do this in a real time game, especially if the game has a pause feature. One of the greatest roguelikes I've ever played is FTL.
FTL aint a roguelike anon
and I love that game
but FTL is comparatively incredibly simplistic compared to for example Nethack, when it comes to options per turn
There's literally no reason to make Nethack real time, it would make the game actively worse in every possible way
remember, in FTL you're always fighting just 1 enemy at a time, while in a roguelike, you're not "fighting an enemy", there's no difference between in combat and out of combat mechanically, and there's nothing that forces you to actively fight an enemy at any point of the game
taking FTL again, it's impossible to do a pacifist run, and fighting as little enemies as possible makes the game impossible to complete
in Nethack it is a legit strategy to bypass as many enemies as you can, and bypassing enemies requires skill
There's no use pretending that FTL isn't a roguelike, the roguelike genre is pretty much set in stone as of now and regressing to an outdated definition is never going to happen.
its a roguelite
It says roguelike on their wikipedia page
the wikipedia page is wrong
No you're wrong, I know it's hard to accept but it is the truth.
Roguelike is one of the few game genres with an actual, official definition in writing, and FTL doesn't qualify
Definitions change, your definition is outdated just like the video game Rogue.
So?
no good term exists because no one has ever bothered to make a good one that describes either what those very similar to Rogue are, nor one to describe those that are only taking some elements that Rogue uses.
"Roguelike" as a term, even the more-narrowly "Traditional Roguelike" is still stuck in the Doomclone era for the genre. And rather than come up with a term that very specifically describes the gameplay (notably the simultaneous turn taking on a tiled grid), they have spent the past decade getting hung up about some dumbass marketers who were way too successful at co-opting the term to instead mean "procgen with permadeath" games in the minds of the general public.
But in any case: procgen isn't actually a genre, it's a tool used to support the foundation of an actual genre. Spelunky is a platformer, Minecraft is a survival/crafting game, Deep Rock Galactic is a coop horde FPS, Nuclear Throne is a twinstick shooter. But it's extremely useful as a shorthand for the general public who are interested specifically in games that have run-based success stories that they can play for hours on end specifically because of that procgen and permadeath, regardless of the actual gameplay differences between them.
It's kind of a catch 22 but everyone involved in this is at fault for being moronic.
roguelike as a term did function pretty up until 2010
that's 30 years of the term being used without issue
it only became an issue with certain devs started misusing the term, either maliciously or accidentally
Why would anyone misuse it maliciously
To make grognards mald.
game developers dont care about that
while initially it wasn't true
people did name their games roguelike to "shine a turd"
"it's not bad game design it's roguelike game design" when the devs included the barest minimum of procedural
what the frick am i reading
Anon they are LITERALLY killing gamers in the streets when they missuse the term. its LITERALLY erasing our culture
To make money. It's easier for your game to stand out if you call it a roguelike than what it actually is and say it has some procedurial generation. Per example, Rogue Legacy purposefully misuses the term so that this indie platformer stood out in the sea of indie platformers.
That's not malicious
Blatantly misleading customers for personal gain is something I'd consider malicious tbh.
They aren't misleading customers because the customers don't know either
>Victim blaming
I accept your concession
If I sell you I'm selling you a sprodoinker and you don't know what a sprodoinker is and you're still happy with the purchase, was I being malicious?
Sure, if your "sprodoinker" was actually a pile of shit and you went out of your way to call it that to hide the fact that you're selling the customer a pile of shit. It's the job of the seller to properly label his products so to not mislead his customers.
By that logic I can stretch, clutter, and obfuscate the truth with impunity as long as my targets were ignorant to begin with.
Being malicious is acting with the intent to harm someone
You may be muddying the use of the word but no person is actually being harmed
The act of deception is inherently malicious when perpetrated on the innocent.
theoretically maybe practically no
bending the truth might be preferable if it helps get the point across
The intent is also entirely different. Is deception really the point in that hypothetical or is it to assist understanding of the truth?
People who describe their Roguelites as Roguelikes just don't give a shit about differntiating between them, so it's not malicious
Oh yeah? Well good point.
>Per example, Rogue Legacy purposefully misuses the term so that this indie platformer stood out in the sea of indie platformers.
The Rogue Legacy devs are literally the people who coined the term Roguelite, because they knew that their game is not a Roguelike. And they have in fact never once called their game a Rogulike.
Download Rogue Legacy 1's or Rogue Legacy 2's press kits and they are still to this day described by the devs as Roguelites. Never as Roguelikes.
Of course games journalists still calls the games Roguelikes instead for some reason.
then tell me anon, what fricking genre were the games that came before Rogue that fully meet the gameplay standards that is commonly understood to be "like Rogue"?
the term itself was useful, but it's only useful to people who actually played Rogue, a game from 1980 that predates when a majority of the gaming public were even born. It's not useful to point at something that they have nothing to form an understanding about. Most genres are at least diagetic so you can roughly understand what you're getting into by reading the genre on its own (yes there are awful stinkers like "character action", or "action rpg", but they don't rely on familiarity with a specific game).
It should have been a real genre name when there were enough games to justify establishing a genre in the first place. Just because it's worked for 30 years doesn't mean it should've been that way for all 30 of those years. Shackling it to this 1 game and elevating it on a pedestal is moronic.
Do you have a better name for the genre than Roguelike?
And no genre name will ever be as misleading as "RPG"
That's the thing, I don't. And I don't have the kind of sway to get people unilaterally on board with changing it.
It's a problem of inertia.
>can't change name because people are expecting the same name
>because no one else is changing, I must stay the same too
no one wants to rip the goddamn bandage off because it requires a lot of effort to get people to understand it.
now if you want to know what I personally think a genre name should entail, it should describe the gameplay succintly.
What is currently "traditional roguelike" should have some means of clarifying that turns are taken simultaneously between the player and the rest of the world. Yes, this may broadly loosen the term to include things that aren't currently understood as "traditional", but it allows a shared heritage with things like tabletop board games that have simultaneous turn taking, and further narrowing of that genre can be applied based on any individual game's needs.
Meanwhile what is currently understood as "roguelite" or whatever bullshit the Berlingays are pushing for should instead be a descriptor subgenre that encapsulates the fact that it's only taking the procgen and/or permadeath inspired Rogue, and not anything else specifically. I mentioned earlier that a term that includes ProcGen might work but that's the sort of thing that'll only really take off if a lot of devs make that kind of push themselves, in a similar vain to how some of them have already started using "Roguelite" like it somehow clears up the confusion (it doesn't, it just comes off as elitist)
You could call them Randomly Generated Permanent Death games or RGPD and that would be descriptive, but nobody is gonna use it
I mean MOBA is a genre, Multiplayer Online Battle Arena, this means nothing
RPG is a genre and most RPGs involve no role playing
Genres just don't make sense
you're right that no one is realistically going to be using RGPD as a genre title, but with enough developers pulling that at once to basically redirect their respective communities and thus any dialogue regarding them, it's only really feasible then. And at least the acronym means something of actual impact unlike how muddied "RPG" has become after straying from it's tabletop roots
genres making sense would be nice though. it's a pipedream at this point. Only thing I can do as a peon customer is channel my autism on mongolian throat singing boards every now and then when this thread happens for the umpteenth time. At the very least I'm pleased that there's at least a consensus that the argument is fricking stupid and never should've gotten to this point in the first place.
>RPG is a genre and most RPGs involve no role playing
Not to open the can of worms that the discourse surrounding this genre.
But I am objectively correct on this topic so I will say my piece anyway.
The RPG genre is not about roleplaying. It's about simulation.
You can "roleplay" or play pretend in practically every videogame there is. Really get into the character of Mario the plumber when playing Mario 1. But it still won't and will never make Mario 1 an RPG.
What makes an RPG is the simulation and the simulation layer that are the RPG mechanics. If you the player aims and shoots a gun with your own own skills and abilities. Then it's not an RPG.
But if it's the player character aiming and shooting a gun with the player character's skills and abilities. Then it's an RPG.
And yes. This isn't all black and white. But the more the game is like the latter instead of like the former, the more of an RPG it is.
Even though Action RPGs exist, the genres of Action and RPG are fundamentally opposed to one another. One makes the other less. Making the combination something of a special genre.
But this is without a doubt what an RPG is. And it really has frickall to do with choices or playing pretend.
And even things like D&D has terribly railroaded premade adventure scenarios with premade characters that offer little to no choices. But it's still an RPG. Because it's the simulation that makes the RPG.
I will die on this hill.
roguelite was a term used by the earliest roguelite developers out of their own free will because they acknowledged they were inspired by rogue(likes) but deviated enough that they could not be called roguelikes
it was not elitist, it was a form of decency on part of the devs
problems only arose when other devs stopped that courtesy
problem is of course that the genre is both ancient and fairly niche, so there never was a true need for a different name because usually the players had an idea what a roguelike was already, or else the community surrounding the games informed them quickly
as long as it was only used by the niche games it was a fine term
the issue only became one when games that were drastically less niche started using the term erroneously because they wanted to highlight the fact they were procedural games, but didn't want to use the term procedural for whatever reason
"procedural" is mlsleading as well. "Randomly generated" would be better, but it also needs to have permadeath aswell as random generation, infact I'd say the permadeath was more important
part of the problem is that roguelikes are procedurally generated
a large part of the skill involved in making a roguelike is to properly develop your procedural generation algorithm, which by the way is genuinely hard and requires significant programming skills
the modern roguelites are randomly generated like you said, because most of them, instead of having a procedural algorithm instead have pre-made rooms or zones that are then randomly stitched together
procedural is important to the roguelike, and the arguements for the roguelites not using the term procedural exist, but they can't be used to justify roguelike instead
procedurally generated doesn't mean randomly generated, but that's just nitpicking really because all forms of procedural generation usually involve randomosity or else why would they bother
You have no idea what any of these words mean
>roguelike as a term did function pretty up until 2010
That's horseshit. Roguebasin has existed since 07. And Roguebasin was created as a repository for roguelike games. Because there were already enough of them to justify such a repository, and they had existed for long enough for there to be a demand for such a thing.
Also bringing up the issue overlap; Rogue, the game that basically started the entire namesake of the "Roguelike" genre is basically one of the few "Dungeon Crawler" games in the genre, and by that technicality, then there are also plenty of non-turn based dungeon crawlers too. So unless nowadays, all dungeon crawlers are roguelikes by default then now there is further schisms in the term.
Rogue is a dungeon crawler, Roguelikes are games like Rogue, so a game needs to be a dungeon crawler to be a Roguelike
>roguelike
>no meta progression elements
>roguelite
>has meta progression elements
always seemed to me like most people didn't know the difference because they've never played Rogue
Roguelike is defined by the Berlin interpretion
Roguelites just have procedurally generated levels and permanent death
You can have a Roguelike with meta progression and a Roguelite without
>Elona
>is literally a roguelike
Berlin interpretation is moronic and they contradict themselves immediately by saying it doesn't matter and something with almost none of the qualities can be a roguelike. So I choose to ignore it and judge the game on if it plays LIKE ROGUE or not
there are more autists arguing about the roguelite vs roguelike term distinction than there are actual roguelike (as in roguelike not roguelite) threads, let alone posters in said threads
I always thought it was:
>rogue-lite = keep some progress on death
>rogue-like = lose all progress on death
rogue like - it plays like rogue
rogue lite - a checklist of other dumb shit they think is what defines the game without actually playing like rogue
That was some really stupid shit that some terribly misinformed people started pushing many years ago for some reason.
But they genuinely didn't know. And were relying on nothing but guess work, looking into something they had very little experience with and knew very little about.
I mean. You don't even need to be a roguelike elitist to realize how it doesn't add up. Because there are plenty of roguelites where you don't in fact keep any of your progress. And they don't suddenly become roguelikes because of that. There exists roguelites with metaprogression and roguelites without metaprogression.
The absence or presence of metaprogression is not what decides it.
Well whatever, it makes more sense than anything else I've read about these stupid terms.
How is "top down simultaneous turns in which you directly control a single character" a super complex omegahard definition for people?
We got other terms that cover those aspects, like dungeon crawler. What's unique to roguelikes is the combination of procedural generation and perma-death.
Procedural generation and perma-death are not unique to Roguelikes. Dungeon crawler typically is used to refer to games like Labyrnth of Refrain and Etrian Odyssey (first person perspective dungeon crawling)
>uhh but it has to be simulturnbased and topdown and asci and rpg and blah blah-
I'm sick of this shit, everyone refers to games with proc-gen and permadeath as roguelikes now and that's that.
Wrong wrong wrong wrong
GET GATEKEPT GET GATEKEPT GET GATEKEPT GET GATEKEPT
You sound like a child complaining that the teacher didn't give him a better grade when he wrote down the wrong answers
>What's unique to roguelikes is the combination of procedural generation and perma-death.
Minecraft Ironman mode
>procedural generation
>permanent death
Behold, a Roguelike!
Yes Minecraft has an optional roguelike mode, big deal.
>What's unique to roguelikes is the combination of procedural generation and perma-death.
Procedural generation, yes. Perma-death no. It really is not and has never been that unique to Rogue.
It's moronic term, makes me cringe every time I stumble upon it, something-like is never a good term.
I don't care to argue about semantics. What bothers me is the river if sewage comprised of the trend chasers and mediocre devs completely missing the point which is to create a fun fricking game irrespective of genre.
ultimately it is obvious to anyone with familiarity of both types of games that are called roguelikes that they are not nearly as similar to each other as the shared name would imply.
in the same sense that super metroid and uncharted 2 could both be called adventure games. we know that doing this is insincere and fails to address the major differentiating factors between the two titles. hence why metroid likes have ceded the action adventure game territory to sony games like uncharted and adopted a new moniker that entails the unique elements: metroidvania. we create genre names to make discussion and classification much easier and some kind of differentiating name between dcss and binding of isaac is necessary to anyone who's played both games. the lite like distinction could suffice but it doesn't have widespread adoption amongst the gaming public. we could call isaac a twinstick shooter with random levels and permadeath. we could call spelunky a platformer with random levels and permadeath. we could call dcss a simulturn top down rpg with random levels and permadeath. but we want shorter terms for discussions sake. hence roguelikes or roguelites. these terms should work for the only kind of people who ever want to talk about game particularities and genres, that is to say extreme nerds.
i am imagining a fire emblem title with randomly generated chapters and double the average number of gameplay mechanics and classes with the exchange of little to no story and i am salivating. give me a roguelite fire emblem and i will need nothing more.
thing is though, those later descriptions are also kind of necessary
Spelunky is a good example, because it's a platformer through and throughout
it uses procedural generation as a tool to make the game less about level-memorization and rather about application of platformer skills, but it's players are almost all platformer fans
there's more significant overlap between spelunky and mario fans than with spelunky and dcss
i 100% agree that spelunky players predominately come from a platform fan lineage. absolutely true. and a big reason for why we should fight for different labels between trad roguelikes and roguelites because there is rather small crossover in who is a fan of both. i mean i like both but im not the norm.
frankly i think if lites adopted an arcade moniker i would be totally onboard with that. arcade procgen platformer. arcade procgen twinstick shooter. it's intuitively understood arcade games have permadeath. trls could be arcade simulturn procgen top down rpgs, but then we notice the lack of brevity and revert back to roguelike. trls should be allowed to keep that moniker, it's the new kid on the block who needs to adopt a new name.
arcade games aren't procedurally generated and they don't really have permadeath either, you pay to respawn
ok. fine. find an acronym that's descriptive and optionally catchy.
Simulturn Proc Gen RPG
SPGR
that should work. i think the longest commonly used acronym for games at this point is 4 characters (jrpg) so this works.
You don't have to skimp out on letters, MMORPGs already gave you at least 6 to work with
commonly shortened to MMO these days though.
This all happened because some turbo-autists from /rlg/ got mad whenever people would try to discuss Binding of Isaac in their generals
Are there any good LEWD roguelikes? The text-based kind with ASCII graphics.
A game doesn't have to be a carbon copy of another game in order to be 'like' it, it can contain similar features to a large or lesser degree and it will still be like the other game in some capacity. Even if it's only the procedural generation and permadeath part.
name a metroidvania that is not like metroid in any way
I never said the game could be like another game if it isn't like it in any way.
I mean, 2 parts of metroid are shooting enemies and exploration
does that make Prey a metroidvania because it shares those 2?
That's a bit similar to you saying if it shares procedural generation and permadeath
Metroidvania doesn't have the term 'like' anywhere in it though. It's a combination of metroid and castlevania and it refers to the set of features common between the two games. Without those it wouldn't be a metroidvania.
i agree with you broadly but this is a fun thought experiment imo. thinking of a metroid like that shares no similarities with metroid is basically impossible.
because it's not a real genre name so it deserved to be corrupted until it became unrecognizable
i want to frick-link
>the term rogue like should refer to the aspects that were not at all unique to rogue instead of the aspects that were unique to rogue
If you’re going to be autistic about a word be autistic with the better definition
This image would be perfect if it weren't for the two boxes on the right
>okay so it's not X, let's call it Y instead
>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO CALL IT ANYTHING
I think the problem is somebody changed one letter in Roguelike and thought it was snappy and clever. The words are too similar, so very few people are going to care to check if it's a k or a t. Say you made a first person stealth game where you don't shoot anything and called it a First Person Shhooter. Like "Shh", get it? Nobody gives a rat's ass about that h, it's still an FPS. Roguelike and Roguelite even sound the same, if you don't intentionally flex your face and draw attention to the T, people just assume you said like.
There should've just been a word for Procedural Permadeath. Call it PermGen, or Procedural Die-er. Hell, call it PP for all I care.
>There should've just been a word for Procedural Permadeath
You don't need one because that's not what defines Roguelikes. God it's like people calling Mario 64 a fricking Metroidvania because "well the 2d is not that important, it's a platformer where powerups allow you to find new things in old areas"
Well, what else ties together Slay the Spire, Noita, Nuclear Throne, and Receiver 2? What about Synthetik?
That's the kinda stuff that gets hit with the roguelike tag. You go back to the start when you die, and a robot put together the level chunks.
From what I can tell I sort of agree with you, it's stupid to compare those games to a top down turn based RPG, but those two factors are what people colloquially call "roguelike".
This guy's right that people do call them that, but wrong in assuming the definition is correct.
Again, they need a new word for it.