Every single decision he ever made was for the sake of his own supremacy. Dude started the bloodiest war in all of humanity for the sake of power.
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Then why get all pissy about being worshipped as a god? If he only cared about his own power, why deny it when people want to ascribe divinity to him?
Because he didn't want to be seen as divine. He wanted to be seen as the pinnacle of mankind, the ubermensch, the greatest man to ever live and will ever live. Which of course, naturally, to many people means he is divine. The Emperor didn't understand other people all that well. We see this all the time, with his own Primarchs, with his own followers, with the Thunder Warriors, and with even Malcador. It's kind of tragic, but it's a side effect of his own megalomania.
>Because he didn't want to be seen as divine. He wanted to be seen as the pinnacle of mankind, the ubermensch, the greatest man to ever live and will ever live.
>t. moron
>Punishes people for seeing him as a god multiple times
>"This totally means he wanted to be seen as a god guys"
>t. moron
Because the Emperor only did that because Lorgar's crusades had ground to a halt. It had nothing to do with principle because the Emperor has none. Reminder that this is the man who manipulated the Mechanicus on Mars into worshipping him as an aspect of their own god for the sake of power, he clearly didn't care about religion as long as he got power, and it's part of why he did nothing to stop Lorgar from throwing a religious festival in the Emperor's honor upon their first meeting. The materialism and secularism of the Imperial Truth was implemented for the sake of population control, not conviction. If a population doesn't believe in anything higher than the state then it's very easy to subjugate them when you are the state.
>If a population doesn't believe in anything higher than the state then it's very easy to subjugate them when you are the state.
...but he is also the higher being higher than the state. Wat.
He's an antichrist-like figure.
Because he willingly denied absolute power for something close to 50,000 years. Because he was actively fighting against actual demons who wanted to eat everyone's soul. Because he willingly gave himself up to be living battery on the golden throne.
>Because he willingly denied absolute power for something close to 50,000 years
Only because A. he wasn't in a position to take it and B. he wasn't as powerful as he is in 30k prior to 30k. The Unification War was literally just the Emperor killing billions of humans so he could rule Terra. I'm sure if he tried to do that back in the days of Assyria or something he might've lost due to humanity's inherit divisions and being less powerful.
>Because he was actively fighting against actual demons who wanted to eat everyone's soul.
So he could rule humanity, not Chaos. It's not benevolence, just supremacy. You're also forgetting that the Primarchs exist because Big E made a deal with Chaos Gods in order to be able to create them to begin with. Chaos is his main competition, he simply thought he could outdo the Gods.
>Because he willingly gave himself up to be living battery on the golden throne.
This is cope. Magnus unknowingly tricked Big E into being confined to the Throne, he never desired this. Only reason Big E still holds on is because the only alternative is dying and you can't be the master of humanity if you're dead.
>Only because A. he wasn't in a position to take it and B. he wasn't as powerful as he is in 30k prior to 30k.
He was 100% able to take it and everything stated that he chose to stay in the background because he hoped humanity would find the way itself with gentle nudges rather than dictatorial force.
>So he could rule humanity, not Chaos.
Even under a gross misinterpretation of almost 40 years of lore that still comes out as benevolence because humanity doesn't end up soulless like the Necrons or eaten like the Eldar. Satan is unironically real in the 40k universe and Big E is actively fighting against them.
>You're also forgetting that the Primarchs exist because Big E made a deal with Chaos Gods
Trash nu-lore from BL that isn't even confirmed.
>Magnus unknowingly tricked Big E into being confined to the Throne, he never desired this. Only reason Big E still holds on is because the only alternative is dying and you can't be the master of humanity if you're dead.
THAT is cope. Big E chose to become everything he hated and despised in life and put himself through unimaginable pain for millennia so that humanity would not be swallowed up by the Chaos gods. He is not the master of humanity sitting upon the throne, he dictates nothing. If he was truly despotic he would have decided if he is dying humanity will die with him.
"Every time a human warrior dies in battle the Emperor's shrivelled eye sheds a single barely perceptible tear. His Custodians collect each tear in a golden cup and carefully fill tiny phials with the precious liquid. There are few talismans as potent as the tears the Emperor weeps, suffused, as they are with his unimaginable might. But so tiny is each tear that each small phial, itself but the size of the tip of the smallest finger, contains thousands of individual tears."
Thank you for sharing that quote with no source of any kind. It shows everyone that you have zero critical reading skills and can't understand what unreliable narration is, which means we save time by ignoring you entirely. Having bad enemies doesn't make your actions or motives good. Best of luck in growing up some day.
lol, he fricking buttmad. My Black person, you made this thread, now you angy people are posting counterpoints to your made up shitty fanfiction-tier interpretation of the setting?
By the way, here is the source for what the other anon posted.
>Warhammer 40,000: Wargear pg. 24 (1993)
>Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd Edition), pg. 46
>The Last Son of Dorn (Novel) Chapter 2
No go cry and shit and piss, you low effort homie.
>Even under a gross misinterpretation of almost 40 years of lore that still comes out as benevolence because humanity doesn't end up soulless like the Necrons or eaten like the Eldar.
This is cope though because Big E has the direct power to save Humanity's souls from the warp but actively chooses not to. The only people he has ever done so is with a literal handful of Saints. For 99.9% of all else of humanity they immediately go to the Sea of Souls to live out torment upon death. Again, he doesn't care about actively saving humanity from Chaos out of some benevolent intentions, what he does care about is supremacy. Saint Celestine is allowed to not die because she in particular is quite useful to his own agendas. Daemons encroaching upon Terra is competition, he can't really rule humanity if Chaos rules humanity, you're attributing a level of grace and charity to the Emperor that he simply does not possess nor is deserving of.
>He is not the master of humanity sitting upon the throne, he dictates nothing
He has dictated every single aspect of how the Imperium is specifically designed and functions ever since 30k, what the hell are you smoking? The Imperial Truth is his own designs, humanity living out in a level of technological and mental ignorance is by his own intentions for the sake of population control. Hell, the reason A.I. is banned is because of Big E. Every single aspect of the Imperium is directly because of the Emperor, billions of souls live, toil, and die for his sake alone despite being a rotting corpse on a chair, it is why humans fight and why psykers are sacrificed: it is all for his own benefit, not humanity's. If the Emperor was truly interested in innovation and material well being, then most every planet would be like that of Magnus's, and if he was truly benevolent then he wouldn't be overly pragmatic and would recognize that the ends are the means.
Do you have a single source to back up all that shit wall of text copium you posted? You don't want to get called out for having sperm-tier critical reading skills, do you?
>do you have a source on basic fundamentals of Warhammer lore
Yeah, it's called actually reading the books. Also
>gets accused of coping
>projects this accusation unto others
>demands sources for basic information while absolving his own arguments of the same expectations
Your entire worldview consists of denial.
Alright, thank you then. You've proved you have no grasp on basic thinking skills and holds no intent in having actual constructive discussions, you are just here to shitty /tg/ up like all other One-Liner Questioners. Time to save up some time by ignoring you entirely. Maybe one day you will grow out of your swimmer phase, one can hope.
Wow the projection. You cannot counter any of my arguments so you flee. Maybe start using your brain and thinking about the setting you enjoy instead of taking everything at face value?
Lol, you're that desperate to have me being present in your pathetic and sad life? What's wrong, buddy? You got no friends and your life is a shithole that you have nothing better to do than to cry and piss in here, hoping someone will give you the human contact you crave so much? Just because you are an asshat of a contrarian does not makes you smarter, moron. Your attempt of a thread can be summed up as "Le emperor... is..LE BAD!" and then you stick your fingers into your ears, giggling and pissing all over yourself when someone comes along to debunk your "arguments." Then get extra pissy when people actually post sources, not daring to reply to that.
inb4, you post some other shit about projections. Yeah, you know what? I am gonna project. I'm gonna project my cum into your mother.
Stay lonely, stay maddy, my little homosexual OP. And thanks for exposing how moronic you are to me. Your thread sucks, but not as much as your mother.
Reminder that this is the intelligence level of the average Imperium fanboy. It says all you need to know.
my man you made a fricking claim, called someone out for a source, then backed off immediately when the same was done too you, based literal moron
>Big E has the direct power to save Humanity's souls from the warp
No sources for that. Imperial Saints being his equivalent of a demon prince is a super modern concept and how equivalent they are is not exactly confirmed. Not to mention that in order to bring people back like that it IS confirmed they loose a bit of their soul everytime. And again, souls are very real in 40k and not having one drives you crazy (see the Necrons).
>or 99.9% of all else of humanity they immediately go to the Sea of Souls to live out torment upon death.
The Sea of Souls is only torment because of Chaos and large portions of the Sea of Souls can be calm for long periods of time. Not to mention it is still preferable to being eaten by Chaos.
>because she in particular is quite useful to his own agendas
What agendas? Well, what agenda besides keeping humanity from being consumed by Chaos.
>he can't really rule humanity
He doesn't rule humanity. He is a battery for the Astronomicon. No policy decisions are ever being made based off what the Emperor wants. The existence of the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy are proof enough of that.
>He has dictated every single aspect of how the Imperium is specifically designed and functions ever since 30k
Expressly false in every single facet. Bobby G talking to Big E was one of the first times in ten thousand years anyone had ever had what could be considered direct communication with the Emperor. The Imperium is run in his name and only works because of the Astronomicon but he is not head of state.
> The Imperial Truth is his own designs
Emperor's Imperial Truth is not Imperium's Imperial Truth.
>in a level of technological and mental ignorance is by his own intentions for the sake of population control
Humanity was debatably at its peak under his rule. Again he has no current say over anything in the Imperium.
>the reason A.I. is banned is because of Big E
No the reason A.I. is banned is because of the Men of Iron.
>Imperial Saints being his equivalent of a demon prince is a super modern concept and how equivalent they are is not exactly confirmed. Not to mention that in order to bring people back like that it IS confirmed they loose a bit of their soul everytime.
He has the direct power to turn people into Imperial Saints to begin with, anon.. he can sure as hell do the same to regular humans, even on a lesser level. Any case losing your soul isn't the biggest deal when your only alternative is damnation. Necrons are soulless beings and they are more or less still existent. My point is that he has the power to do something about it but actively chooses not to. If the immaterium is so abhorrent then he shouldn't've co-opted the Mechanicus into being his eternal war machine and should've left their faith in tact so as to transcend humans into machines at a more efficient pace. The Emperor does not seem to have any real plans for the benefit of humanity or their salvation, all he really seems to care about are actions that consolidate more power for himself at the expense of the rest of humanity.
>The Sea of Souls is only torment because of Chaos and large portions of the Sea of Souls can be calm for long periods of time. Not to mention it is still preferable to being eaten by Chaos.
You get eaten by Chaos regardless, dude.. in fact, sorcerers can intentionally pull your soul out of the warp and feed it to daemons provided it isn't claimed already.
>What agendas?
Maintaining his status as lord of Humanity.
>He doesn't rule humanity.
You're missing the point or being intentionally ignorant. The entire Imperium is designed to prop up Big E's corpse. The Custodes protect him, the Astartes fight his battles, and the Inquisition runs the black ships to send him enough psyker souls so he can still live. The entire mechanism exists to sustain Big E at the expense of humanity in the process. He is the lord and master of all humankind that remains in his Empire.
>your only alternative is damnation.
It isn't. Realm of Souls, even now, is partially peaceful.
>losing your soul isn't the biggest deal
>Necrons are soulless beings and they are more or less still existent.
Except for every single piece of lore ever about the Necrons. Reminder that 99.9% of Necrons are now mindless husks. Of the remaining .1% some have gone mad like the destroyers and the flayers and even those who have actively kept their "memory" and "personality" like reddit-bot Trazyn actively long for their souls and bodies back.
>If the immaterium is so abhorrent
It isn't. Chaos is.
>transcend humans into machines at a more efficient pace
See Necrons.
>in fact, sorcerers can intentionally pull your soul out of the warp and feed it to daemons
This
>You get eaten by Chaos regardless
Directly contradicts this.
>The entire mechanism exists to sustain Big E at the expense of humanity
The exact opposite. The entire mechanism exists to sustain humanity at the expense of Big E. Humanity props up his corpse as it is a convenient rally point and because of the astronomicon. Nothing he said, did, taught or actively worked for is preserved in the modern Imperium. If he dies humanity dies.
>It isn't. Realm of Souls, even now, is partially peaceful.
Source for this shit, you flamming homosexual? Or you gonna scream like a little b***h about how I need to read whatever obscure fanfic you pulling those facts from?
>The exact opposite. The entire mechanism exists to sustain humanity at the expense of Big E.
The entire structure of the Imperium functions so he can be sustained. Every aspect of society exists so he can live. Sure, you may argue Big E can protect others from daemons or chaos, but everyone is serving so that he himself is sustained. Big E gets the predominant benefit from this system, because without it he dies.
>the immaterium and chaos are unrelated
So what do you reasonably expect to happen to humans after death? They don't have their own gods. It's not like how Eldars can become Harlequins to save their souls from Slaanesh or how Orks have Gork and Mork. The default state of humanity after death is Chaos bait.
>Big E gets the predominant benefit from this system, because without it he dies.
Humanity gets the predominant benefit from this system, because without it humanity dies.
>the immaterium and chaos are unrelated
That isn't the quote you goalpost moving homosexual. The immaterium created chaos but chaos is not the natural state of the immaterium.
>The default state of humanity after death is Chaos bait.
Ah so what you really want is for humanity to have it's own god in the warp? One that could take human souls unto itself away from the potential clutches of the Chaos? I know just the guy for the job. A real kind man, been around for a while, already sacrificed himself for humanity. I think he'd do.
>because without it humanity dies.
This is fundamentally untrue. There are thousands of worlds that have humans on them not under the Imperium's yoke. The Imperium is not a necessity for humanity's survival, you can argue that it aids in such, but if it collapsed then you'd have a new structure take place instead. The point of the Imperium is so the Emperor may live.
>The immaterium created chaos but chaos is not the natural state of the immaterium.
This is irrelevent because the immaterium is in the state that it's in and is only getting worse. Been that way since the war in heaven. You act as if human souls will magically not get devoured by Chaos upon entering it despite Chaos being the most powerful entity in the immaterium.
>I know just the guy for the job. A real kind man, been around for a while, already sacrificed himself for humanity. I think he'd do.
Yeah, it's too bad he's either not powerful enough to do so (according to your own arguments) and actively causes humans to evaporate their souls if he chooses to apply it to more than a literal handful of individuals.
>but if it collapsed then you'd have a new structure take place instead.
This is fundamentally untrue. The small unconnected and disparate remains of post DaoT humanity had no means of warp travel or communication. You point to that yourself with the immaterium being in a state of chaos. They can't travel, communicate or withstand everything else that can do those things.
If the Imperium collapsed navigators would still exist as well as other psykers. Sure, the astronomicon dying would make things complicated but not impossible.
Definitely makes it impossible to have anything unified enough to withstand Chaos, Nids, waaaghs, awakening necron kingdoms, let alone small timers like rakgol and whoever else felt like it.
>There are thousands of worlds that have humans on them not under the Imperium's yoke.
>The Imperium is not a necessity for humanity's survival
>but if it collapsed then you'd have a new structure take place instead.
Here is the structure that would take its place when the light of the astronomicon goes out, Imperial world or not. Because you apparently don't know, it is the Eye of Terror. Look it up.
>You act as if human souls will magically not get devoured by Chaos upon entering it despite Chaos being the most powerful entity in the immaterium.
They don't. Chaos does not yet have complete control over the immaterium. Souls are fish thrown into a bay where there are four very hungry sharks swimming around. The sharks are always getting bigger and faster as it stands right now but at least you are not hand fed to one of the sharks like what the Eldar have.
>it's too bad he's either not powerful enough to do so
He is not powerful enough to do so because he is still kept alive by the golden throne and tethered to his mortality. Letting him die is the greatest gamble humans can take. If he dies you either get a God of Humanity or Chaos consumes everything. So humanity, fundamentally, delays that existential coin flip, maintaining the awful status quo because while it is horrible it is better than one of the two alternatives.
see
>Maintaining his status as lord of Humanity.
He isn't. Wasn't even his idea to get entered on the throne.
>The entire Imperium is designed to prop up Big E's corpse.
>He is the lord and master of all humankind that remains in his Empire.
Can't be both now can it?
I want you to actually think about these things. The entire design of the imperium, and its current purpose, is to sustain Big E. You serve for the Emperor. Therefore, he ultimately is your master. You don't serve for the High Lords of Terra, or for Chaos, or for Tyranids, or for the Eldar, you serve for the Emperor.
lmao you can't even address the points, read the words right in front of you, separate fiction from reality or even seemingly understand mutual benefit. You're absurdly autistic.
I'll meme arrow it for you
>Its not his empire
>he is not in charge
>his name is used by positions of power corrupt and beyond his control
>he is trapped on the throne
>humanity's misdirected aims keep him there and sacrifice to it
I'd ask you to really think about anything but you're clearly incapable of it. Watch:
How would you have felt if you hadn't made this shitpost today?
It is his empire, he created it, and he's the reason any of it exists. I don't understand how you can't understand this. So.. is it the High Lords of Terra that are to blame for the concurrent state of the Imperium, seeing as how in your mind you can only be considered a "master" if you actively enforce policies in the present? Where do you think the Aquilla comes from? Who subjugated Mars? Who conquered Terra? Who made deals with Chaos to make the Primarchs to begin with? The Imperium IS the Emperor's design, he ensured that it would end up this way due to his own hubris. How do you not understand this? Should we blame Eldar for the state of the Imperium instead? Did the Emperor somehow not have a hand in quite literally every tangible action he did?
Its not his empire anymore. Hasn't been for 10000 years. A name is not the same thing. The entire setting is built around the decay and misdirection of the original intent and design over millennia. You specifically miss this point repeatedly so you can keep harping on some sort of blame game about the injustice of the imperium or some shit.
>who is to blame?
lmao you're pathetic.
>The imperium is the emperor's deign
Its really not. Hasn't been for 10 millennium in setting. The imperium as his made it was only a thing for 300ish years.
>it isn't the Emperor's fault his entire Imperium is the way it is despite intentionally creating it as such
Got it. So, the Emperor intentionally lying to the entire human populace about the state of reality and lying to his own sons and using them as tools for his own supremacy also isn't his fault. You can't put two and two together that actions snowball. The Emperor ensures all of this to be inevitable by his own behavior. His lofty goals of a technologically advanced wonderworld is a selling point to justify his hubris, all the actions he took ensued stagnation and not progress.
He's not an active entity at all.
Contextual factors leading to events =/= intent, nor guilt. He's not even mentally capable of being held responsible.
Its a 100000 year span of corruption and change. Its got very little to do with the initial crusades. That's sort of the point. Even the HH series, as trash as it is, makes it quite clear that many many things did not go as he planned.
He intentionally communicates via the Imperial Tarrot and does preform tangible actions even on the throne. You can even speak to him provided the Custodes let you. Absolving the Emperor of accountability simply because he's confined to a chair is not only disingenuous but demonstrates an unreasonable level of charity that isn't warranted.
Nope.
The tarot can be read as the will of the emperor and communications but again, interpretive thus based on the reader and susceptible to corruption from as far back as the Inquisition Wars series.
Who has directly communicated with the Emperor? There are dozens of already posted sources saying he is out of the loop and not in charge.
One moronic anon is unable to separate concepts so seems stuck on
>emperor rules bad place
but he doesn't
>but he bad
Okay. Still not in charge. That's one of the main points of the setting. There might be other anons who want to get into if the various flavours of kill all the aliens and oppression are justifiable vs the annihilation of the species or even the material universe. I don't really care about that part.
>Who has directly communicated with the Emperor?
Bobby G is the only person who has directly communicated with the Emperor in ten thousand years.
Jaq Draco too. Not like his communion left a very strong indication of a mentally in charge emperor.
And it wasn't a 1 v 1 conversation. It was thousands of voices screaming at him with contradictory information until a singular will rose from the ocean and voices and mindblasted him out of the room.
>Contextual factors leading to events =/= intent, nor guilt. He's not even mentally capable of being held responsible.
What level of cope is this? You're arguing that because the Emperor is imprisoned on the golden throne in 40k that he's not responsible for any of his bad decisions he intentionally and unintentionally caused in 30k? You either suffer from some bizarre cognitive disorder where you cannot understand that actions in the past result in events occurring in the future and seem to think the Emperor can only be held accountable if he manages every aspect of governmental policy like a bureaucrat regardless of relevance. The Imperium would not exist without the Emperor, and the cope of "well, he didn't intend for the Crusades to not go as he planned" is irrelevant because all of his actions during the Crusades insured the Imperium would end up in the state that it's in. Regardless of intention, the Imperium is his design. I'm sure Vladmir Lenin didn't intend to be worshipped as a God by abolishing religion, doesn't mean his direct actions didn't ensure the result. Like holy shit man, you're on 15 different layers of mental gymnastics for the sake of absolving the Emperor of any concept of accountability. You can like Big E, it doesn't make him perfect or devoid of accountability simply because you enjoy his character.
What level of not being able to read is this?
Go back and read all the shit where OP is saying the emperor is in control of the the imperium.
The emperor is imprisoned on the 31st millennium. None of the structures that the 41st millennium imperium use have much at all to do with the great crusade or imperial truth. Its a foundational myth and sociopolitical lever. Its 10000 years of cultural drift and telephone. The emperor on the throne is not in charge or even culpable. Its so far out of his hands its turned into a horrible mockery of the original idealism. That's part of the hubris tale. He made his own mistakes, that's also part of the hubris tale. The shit the imperium in the 41st isn't his call. The shit he got up to in the 30th and before, sure why not?
I think you're taking OP's statements too literally. The word "master" does not equate manager. Is English not your first language? Not once did he argue the Emperor runs the Imperium like a politician, but he did argue that the Emperor is responsible for the Imperium's design because the Emperor created it. Also a lot of the aspects o the Imperial Truth were adopted by the current faith of the Imperium. Denial, service, loyalty to the Emperor are all values that both of these expose. It didn't come from nowhere, but was adopted from it. Even without the Word Bearers there'd likely be some other Imperial Faith post-heresy, and the Black Templars are evidence of this.
Go read the fricking posts man.
I've been speaking english since before you were born.
Read all the times that's what they argued and ignored all the evidence to the contrary. Read the posts where he argued the emperor is in direct communication with and orders the imperium. That were proven wrong.
A lot of the aspects of the book of lorgar were adopted by the current faith of the imperium. Does this mean Erebus is responsible for the design of the administratum?
Go fricking read.
>A lot of the aspects of the book of lorgar were adopted by the current faith of the imperium. Does this mean Erebus is responsible for the design of the administratum?
Sure, you can argue that. You can also argue that Big E allowed this to happen by not executing Lorgar and Erebus on the spot as soon as meeting them. Instead of axing a hyper religious planet he choose to allow Lorgar to exist despite his obvious conflict with the tents the Emperor wanted. His actions pretty much ensured the modern state of the Imperium. You can argue he didn't have the foresight to see how all of this would play out, but that doesn't change that he allowed for this. Also didn't the Emperor directly communicate with people during the Age of Apostacy?
So, everything was 100% exactly as planned, but also somehow went totally wrong. No one, over the entire course of 100000 years, had any ability to alter anything. That's your 'argument'? That no one in an entire universe over 10 millennia had anything to do with their own agency or design, it was alllllllllll the emperor's plan. That still went wrong. But it was all his fault. Ok.
Sebastian Thor is an interesting idea. Is the warp daemon possession of a material entity direct communication? Is the spirit of the emperor that possesses saints the same thing as direct communication? Is it even the same thing as the emperor, having been changed and altered by human faith in the warp? Humans already made a god of the greater good.
>So, everything was 100% exactly as planned, but also somehow went totally wrong.
So, this may be extremely difficult to comprehend, but the Emperor's intentions were not good or beneficial and in fact, many times were quite stupid. A lot of his direct ideas were ones that ensured absolute disaster. So.. on all accounts, the Imperium is his design.
I don't have any concerns or arguments about if he was a good person or not. 100% do not care, don't think its a workable concept for the hellscape universe that is warhammer. You have me confused for some sort of imperial larper. Again, because you can't read. The little red arrows link together the posts that are related.
>So.. on all accounts, the Imperium is his design.
Doing a thing wrong and having that go wrong and even still then further from what you intended is not design. God you're fricking dumb.
You can say
>the current state of the imperium in the 41st millenium is terrible and a lot of that has to do with bad choices, mistakes and events of the 31ast millennium, the great crusade, heresy, etc.
and its a workable, earnest statement.
You can't say with any honesty
>the current state of the 41st millennium is entirely the emperor's fault and design
There's too many other factors, characters, agents, accident and time.
>Doing a thing wrong and having that go wrong and even still then further from what you intended is not design.
By that definition, real Communism has never been tried. The only dumb person here is you because you have an extremely difficult time comprehending that actions, even really fricking stupid ones, still pertain agency even if they're bad ideas. The Emperor got everything that he wanted, problem is he didn't want anything good.
>somehow real communism has never been tried
Show your work. How did you even get to that moronic backflip of logic? Why do you idiots keep bring up communism?
A wide variety of variants of communism have been tried. There have been failures, repercussions and a wide variety of violent bad times. Those violent bad times are not in any way going to ever be responsible for or have designed anything 10000 years from now.
You literally don't understand time.
>didn't want anything good
Mixed bag. You don't seem to understand that things can have both positive and negative effects, or even that those might differ based on who its happening to.
Frick it, let's keep going.
> Denial, service, loyalty to the Emperor
So is whoever had any doctrine about denial, service and loyalty to a ruler the emperor responsible for the Ecclesiarchy? You can easily say they are historically linked, in the same way my balls are historically linked to your mouth from all the times I fricked your mom and your face came out of her vegana, but its not my balls that are responsible for your moronation.
The direct tenets expressed in the Imperial Truth overlap with the current faith. In fact they're essentially identical aside from a shift from materialism to strict theism, in thanks to Lorgar, it's part of where he got it from.
Okay. So
>overlap=the same as
Ohkay.
You're still straight up wrong too. The direct tenants of the imperial truth were reason, science and progress. That is not part of the current 41st millennium imperial faith.
>reason, science, and progress
Yeah and those are lofty ideas the Emperor never personally embodied nor enforced, What he did manage to implement in 30k was ignorance, cultural stagnation, and slaughter. In fact the most scientifically advanced planets in the Imperium at the time of 30k were run by Primarchs who didn't adhere to the Emperor's edicts or his codex.
So
>The direct tenets expressed in the Imperial Truth overlap with the current faith.
is not true. You were wrong.
So the Imperial Truth of 30k never successfully implemented anything it claimed to embody? I can claim to spread "science" but if all I do is publish articles that don't use the scientific method to conduct any objective research based on repeatable experiments it doesn't mean science actually occurred. You're correct that the Imperial Truth does not overlap with what it claimed to bring and value with what the current Imperium claims to brin and value, problem is what it actually brought is what the modern Imperium also brings.
The failure of the imperial truth is straight up in the intro blurb for every edition of 40k that has ever been made.
Do you know what a tenet is? Its a principal of belief. You may have noticed that expressed principals or beliefs are not the same thing as effects. Weird right? Almost like different words mean different things.
>In fact the most scientifically advanced planets in the Imperium at the time of 30k were run by Primarchs who didn't adhere to the Emperor's edicts or his codex.
Mars. Again, you're wrong.
Mars worships the Omnissiah and entered into technological and cultural stagnation by being coerced into being the Emperor's war machine. Gosh you are in denial lol.
Still the most scientifically and technologically advanced.
Okay? It doesn't follow the Imperial Truth. Martians worship the Omnissiah and by all definitions do not follow the Imperial Creed. The Imperium fundamentally failed to bring about anything it claimed to.
No shit. The imperial truth was not the only ideological mode, nor was it the only one with ideals about technological progress.
But it was the ideological mode the Emperor intentionally enforced, and so the faults of the Imperium are by his own design.
>thinks I'm pro IoM larping or some shit
lmao even
I'm going to break this down real simple because you seem to lack a basic understanding of time.
>10 000 years
That's a lot of time. No one designs anything to any degree over that span of time. There are effects and linkages, but not intentional design. There is responsibility to actions in their own time and to a reasonable extent thereafter. If you're trying to argue 10 000 years is a reasonable extent of time after you've done something that you are morally responsible for, I don't really think you're capable of having much of a conversation.
>it is all for his own benefit, not humanity's
Except that none of it benefit's him because he is, as you have said, a corpse on a chair. The reason psykers are sacrificed is because otherwise the astronomicon fails. If it fails humanity dies.
>If the Emperor was truly interested in innovation and material well being, then most every planet would be like that of Magnus's
A dead and blasted ruin for ten thousand years? Humanity was at its second peak under Big E both in terms of prosperity and technological achievements. You are somehow unable to grasp that the Emperor is explicitly uninvolved in 40k in most meaningful ways.
>That whole fricking post.
>All that is wrong with it.
I found the normie entry-level reddit kid. It's okay, OP. We know you are too busy sucking wieners to actually read anything 40k and only listens to youtube podcasts about it. Just remember that too many cummies will rot your brain.
Aight, prove me wrong if anything I said was incorrect. I thought you had to be 18 years or older to post on this website but apparently that isn't the case since you're allowed here.
>I thought you had to be 18 years or older to post on this website
Yeah, you have to be. What the frick you doing here?
So why can't you formulate arguments like an adult if you actually are over 18 years old? Were you dropped on the head?
How do you know that?
Because he says so?
Because I read the books, something you are incapable of doing with that room-temperature IQ of yours, you fricking secondary. Now go back to slurping whathever youtuber you listen to in order to understand 40k.
>verification not required
Because that's literally the setting you moronic tertiary
Killing billions of humans in the bloodiest war in history is somehow benevolent? His grand design of implementing the Webway project was not for the benefit of humanity but for his own. With the Webway there would be no need for Navigators and nothing to challenge his monopoly on power over all of humanity.
There were literally plans in place to have baseline humans take over the Imperium. Horus and Malcador get into an altercation over that exact issue. That doesn't make sense for a monarch seeking to consolidate all power to himself.
His entire system for governance was one of top down authority, he never wanted planetary governors at all as an end stage, he wanted to personally lord over humanity. Humanity wouldn't "take over" he would still be in charge, only difference is that there wouldn't be space marines to challenge him and he would have a few loyal Primarchs to help do his own bidding. You unironically think Big E, a man who slaughtered countless billions of humans for his own agendas, is just going to willingly step down from power after having achieved all of his own machinations that had the intent purpose of consolidating power for himself? You're hopelessly naive.
>he never wanted planetary governors at all as an end stage
Source?
You have been spending too much time on reddit and reading lefty rethoric, take a break
And what war would that be?
The Great Crusades.
This is the first thread I've made in actual months on this site. Do you believe there are only like 3 people on this board or something?
Then the fact that you sound exactly the same as all other shitty one-line question poster speaks volumes about how unoriginal and meaningless your thread is.
You responded to it though, so rather that speaks volumes about your lack of standards of engagement and also what draws people in.
I'm trash, I love trash. I know what I'm willingly engaging with. But just because I love shit, does not means it still not shit. This entire thread is just a shitty attempt at baiting lomorons just for you to go "No u" or post some other moronic and arbitrary goal-post moving.
The whole of humanity of tired of the puasyfooting "don't engage plz" horseshit. Stop trying to throw up barricades and fight out your fricking ideas, coward.
Are you a leftoid? Do you lack ingroup preference and have an outgroup preference for xenos who backstabbed, enslaved and murdered humans before Big E can to the rescue?
>if you don't defend Big E's egoistic ambitions then that means you're a leftoid and xeno lover
Hate to break it to you but there are no heroes in 40k, and that's by design of the setting. Criticizing the emperor doesn't mean Drukari aren't psychopaths or that Chaos isn't ontologically evil, what the hell are you talking about?
The Imperium wiped out plenty of human groups who weren't being threatened by xenos or were more than capable of defending themselves from a Waaagh or Dark Eldar raids and wanted to just be left alone to do their own thing and not be part of some galactic empire. Some were fine with joining up with a bigger attack dog in exchange for being left partly self governing (The Mechanicum for instance, they're essentially an imperium inside of the imperium, Ultramar is another example) but others very much were battered into submission by multiple space marine warfleets. The Astartes fought other humans more than xenos arguably during the Great Crusade. The Emperor you can argue wasn't really necessary. Humanity in plenty of places had started to come out of the Long Night, started their own empires, and the Emperor decided that it was the best time to take over now because if he didn't maybe someone else who didn't agree with him would. Did Big E liberate plenty of places from the tyranny of the xeno? Yes. Did he also completely crush every single other potential rival empire and destroy entire cultures who wouldn't adopt his views? Also yes.
>Did he also completely crush every single other potential rival empire and destroy entire cultures who wouldn't adopt his views? Also yes.
Did those views they refused to adopt happen to involve handing over all psykers for soul-binding? Because rival empires not getting onboard for that is a pretty big non-starter considering the stakes.
No shit like consorting this xenos or cultures that were just too far off from the imperiums/ones that wren openly hostile
Which ones, specifically?
those guys with the centaur robot bodies and the "empire" aka a system that had a small empire run by a guy claiming to be the emperor of man kind, it didnt end well in either case
The centaur guys (Interex) were baited into a war with the Lunar Wolves by renowned chaos buttboy Erebus, not exactly done on Big E's command.
The fake emperor on fake Terra drew first blood during negotiations, not exactly undeserved tbh and not exactly a genocide as the conflict ended practically immediately after he was killed.
At some pont the lore transferred from "man look at these funny psychos" to actually portraying them as heroes.
Yeah it's really jarring.
Wrong, everything the Emperor did was for the good of the humanity. He is completely selfless.
Allowing billions of humans to die for his own benefit is how you define selflessness?
The fact you can't understand what really happened or what the events in the setting really mean is fricking hilarious. Next you going to say how Chaos is actually good.
No, Chaos is undeniably evil. There is no goodness in 40k.
What a courageous and daring hot take. It really cements how much you are of a nihilistic contrarian homosexual. I did not expect you to be this flawed as a human being, but you really opened my eyes with that statement.
So is 40k not grimdark then? What's your point?
What is YOUR point, homosexual? Cause you not getting to it, you are just pic related. You just yapping and yapping "GAIS GAIS, what if Emperor was actually evil all along!?!?1"
Oh, so now you running away, aren't you? Lil' homosexual. Unable to actually prove your point, unable to cite any sources or make any strong arguments for your shitty fanfic take on 40k. Where is that high intellect you were so proud about? Where is it now?
You want an example of Goodness?
The Primarch Sanguinius, beloved by everyone.
Space Wolves going into war with the Inquisition due to Armageddon civilians being killed.
The Lamenter's entire fricking cursed existence as they give themselves up to save the civilians of the Empire.
Ollannius Pius sacrificing himself to stop Horus long enough for the Emperor to smite his son.
Fricking CIAPHAS CAIN.
Now get your learned ass off here and go apply some Malal White ointment. Go fricking read the books you lie about having read. Go learn some actual lore.
The emperor was evil all along. That's the point of the setting. It's oops: all villains! The point of 40k is everyone sucks so it feels good no matter who is getting annihilated and you always get to play the Saturday morning cartoon villain or cheesy horror schlock antagonist you please. You are so fricking stupid that even satire that breaks its own kayfabe flies over your head, and you turn everyone who points this out into one singular boogeyman to justify your tantrums. Literally have a nice day you absolute waste of limited food and air. Parasitic colon worms have more value to humanity than you do.
How you know that? Because your 40k youtuber daddy told you so?
Prove to me there is no Good in 40k. Give me a source, you crawling Black person scum.
Provide examples of goodness in 40k then if you're trying to argue that it's high fantasy or some shit where it's a struggle of good and evil. Even Vulkan isn't nice when it suits him.
ntayrt
>isn't nice all the time
>therefor isn't good
Is this an actual thing you think?
Billions of humans would die anyway, might as well die for something.
Spending eternity in a torture device cum interstellar lighthouse and not allowing humanity to fall enmasse to chaos and aliens and rampant AI is your definition of selfish?
Also
is stupid as you’ve already been proven incorrect about AI, as well as the Great Crusade being the deadliest war in human history, that would be the war against the Men of Iron.
>source he says!
Go read the lexicanum article on them, the sources are in the notes.
If I weren’t already a useless moron on disability I wouldn’t have time to argue with you, what’s your excuse?
>Spending eternity in a torture device cum interstellar lighthouse and not allowing humanity to fall enmasse to chaos and aliens and rampant AI is your definition of selfish?
Yes? Especially when billions of souls are sacrificed for the express purpose of keeping you alive on a golden chair? What, so all the people lobotomized into servitors is for their own benefit? Psykers having their souls ripped out and fed to Big E is for their own benefit? Hive worlders starve on the daily for their own benefit?
Its pretty funny you claim benevolence and altruism when you fundamentally don't understand group goals.
The Emperor is neither benevolent nor altruistic, what he is though is needlessly pragmatic, it's part of why he was perfectly fine with having the Iron Warriors and Night Lords in his legions and condoned their actions. The Emperor has no principles, any end justifies his means.
Deflection but also you can be pragmatically goal oriented to the point of self sacrifice. He was, that's the point.
You have nothing. There are literal posts that explain the golden throne as a prison, the imperium as not his to control, its not for his benefit. You're full of shit. Go home.
>Deflection but also you can be pragmatically goal oriented to the point of self sacrifice
When your goal is the continuation of your own existence then that's not particularly benevolent.
He's not continuing his own existence. He's a soul powered lighthouse.
He literally sacrifices himself to defeat horus and prevent chaos from becoming ascendant. Not sure what else to tell you. Its in the books. Its been posted. Its been the fluff since day 1.
Black person, he sacrifices billions of humans on the daily so he can keep staying alive.
Not your Black person fricko. He's not commanding anyone to feed the astronomicon. You are unable to separate a name from a structure. You have autism.
So the thousand psyker souls a day is for the psyker's benefit?
Its like you've never read a single book.
>high lords of terra
> Especially when billions of souls are sacrificed for the express purpose of keeping you alive on a golden chair?
The souls fuel the Throne, which fuels the Astronomican. They don't keep the Emperor alive, and the Throne's systems are failing slowly.
the throne has been explicitly stated for decades to be keeping him "alive" anon
>There is no meaningful experience in trying to teach
You don't have the capacity for higher forms of thought, nor the ability to teach, and your entire discussion itt has involved no actual counter arguments and consists of nothing more than third grade level insults. It seems like the only one who is remotely upset here, is you.
>I am getting a laughter at you getting mad we not falling for your shitty baits
Confirmed for brain damage. Protip: those weren't colds you kept catching.
Oh wooooow, so smart! Not. You sound like a second grader who just listened to a Ben Shapiro Video after accidentally clicking on a 40k video. Is that the best insults you can come up? The shit I take at work is nastier than you are.
You know nothing of 40k. Your hot-takes are mid at best. The only thing that stand out on this thread is that you are a freshly minted Level 5+ autist that never heard about The Emperor's Tears. That is evidence enough you're not even a tertiary, you straight up a disgusting quaternary who somehow survived all the abortion attempts your mother had.
A few factoids that I can cite, unlike the majority of the thread.
The Chaos daemon codexes state that human souls that enter the Warp dissolve.
The novels expanded this. The process is described as burning. Everything you are is burned away and consumed by the Warp.
While this is happening daemons and other Warp predators may swoop in like sharks and devour the dissolving souls ensuring their eternal torment.
"The Realm/Sea of Souls" is a human term for the Warp. It doesn't describe a state of the Warp before. It's one of the many for the Warp in the setting.
Chaos and the Warp since 2nd have always been the same. The lore was copypasted in the daemon Chaos codexes. It says that Chaos is the Warp and the Warp is Chaos. The two are indivsiavble.
A factoid is the word for something that appears to be a fact but it's in truth actually false. That's the oid suffix, moron. Like his humanoids have the shape of a human but aren't humans, and spheroids are approximately but not strictly a sphere, a factoid is a lie presented in the style of a truth. You people are all so fricking stupid it's unreal. Actual npc mentality, never questioning or investigating anything.
Yeah...you guys are missing something.
Whether through a deal or just theft (The Valdor novel heavily implies it was a broken deal), the Emperor stole the power of the Chaos Gods. Don't bother to deny it. Malcador, Alivia Sureka, and multiple Custodes characters have all said that the Emperor went to Molech and stole the power of the Chaos Gods to use for his purposes and he later took joy in turning the power of the gods back against them.
Doesn't this prove without a doubt that the Emperor is evil? The Emperor drew first blood against Chaos and antagonized the gods. Everything that happened since then was due to his hubris.
Goalpost shifting.
Selfish and Evil are not necessarily synonymous. He has already been proven to not be selfish. Megalomaniac probably, they tend to have an inflated sense of self importance. Can add to a hubris tale and otherwise tragic figure/lament of dumb shit humans and overwrought structures around ideals get, etcetcetc though.
Also note stealing from malevolent extra dimensional entities to defeat them/allow humanity to escape their grasp might not be entirely evil.
>Whether through a deal or just theft (The Valdor novel heavily implies it was a broken deal), the Emperor stole the power of the Chaos Gods. Don't bother to deny it. Malcador, Alivia Sureka, and multiple Custodes characters have all said that the Emperor went to Molech and stole the power of the Chaos Gods to use for his purposes and he later took joy in turning the power of the gods back against them.
>Nobody brings up the pages of Erda, John-G, and fricking Oll discussing the character of the Emperor with no bis and objectivity of having personally known the man as his Perpetual kin and peers.
Black Library secondary trashy.
>turning the power of the gods back against them.
Relictors are vindicated!
>Emperor is evil arguments
> Nobody brings up the pages of Erda, John-G, and fricking Oll discussing the character of the Emperor with no bis and objectivity of having personally known the man as his Perpetual kin and peers.
They were his equals and they all judged him to be evil. He is just isn't as evil as Chaos.
Are we really arguing that the guy who was a hair breadth away from becoming the 5th Chaos God aka the Dark King aka the God of Tyranny and oppression is not evil?
Are we really going to care about moronic shit that has not existed in the lore for the past 40 years and was conjured into existence in The End and The Death Part 69: The Warhammering of Fourty Thousand?
Why do you hate nuance and depth, anon?
>you clearly must hate nuance and depth if you don't read the Horus Heresy
>He reads Horus Heresy
>He likes Horus Heresy
AHAAAAAHAAAH!!
Because the setting has been getting actively dumber for the last 20 years. The old school design team has been pretty open about Inquisitor being basically their last hurrah, and I think they're 100% right. "Hero of the Imperium" was always an ironic title. There are lots of decent and good people in the Imperium, but the Imperium is not decent or good. It is a vile, brutal, corrupt society, the "cruelest regime imaginable."
Some things the Imperium does are justified, like the way they treat Psykers. Other things are the result of ignorance and bigotry. Most mutants are just people, the Imperium reviles them for theological reasons, not practical ones. There are plenty of peaceful/reasonable aliens, and the Imperials kill them all because why bother sorting them out?
The Emperor was never supposed to be particularly benign. He's a corpse that a bunch of fanatics pray to who was maybe a psychic warlord ten thousand years ago. He's not Christ, and he *shouldn't* be Christ. There are plenty of fantasy settings with noble heroes and chosen ones saving the day. Let us have the one universe where everything's fricked up and the bad guys are the main characters.
Another thing. Before fighting Horus, the Emperor removed all compassion., humanity, and goodness in his soul and cast it into the Warp where it became the Star Child. This is the current lore.
So..the Emperor on the Throne is objectively evil.
Having a devouring lighthouse powered by souls to prop up your decadent and decaying empire is likely evil yes.
But the Star Child would then be an example of objective Good for
and the various imperial factions working towards/for the Star Child, Thorians, etc.
Here, this will be fun:
Suppose it is objectively evil, but also the only feasible way for the species or even the material universe to persist. What do?
>What do?
What was Geralt's quote about lesser evils?
Obviously not a very good one if you can't remember it. Was he ripping off the lesser of the two weevils?
Something more workable like
>live as best you can with the evil you can't change, do as best you can about evil you can change
its just the hyperhell of 40k makes that very limited.
Here it is.
“Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all.”
Yeah, its like a watered down Hanna Ardent bit even more angled towards paralysis as moral righteousness.
No familiarity with the series. How's that work out for him?
He ends up killing the "greater" evil (The woman rumored to be Lilith or Lilith's daughter), while the "lesser" evil (The mage that wanted to hire him to kill said woman) public turns everyone in town against him.
Now he is know as a Butcher of something, don't remember the town's name.
So he didn't chose, did the same thing a choice wanted him to do anyway and lost his ability to react to the lesser evil while he was at it. This maybe doomed the town he was trying to save as well because the lesser evil is in charge of it? Evaluation sort of depends on how that goes and if the goal was saving the town to begin with.
I don't fully remember how it goes, but it's something like this.
>"Geralt, I'm a wizard. I have seen a prophecy so I'm hiring you to kill a girl that might become a demon able to seduce any man."
>"I don't kill girls, only monsters."
>You making a mistake, Witcher.
>[Lesser evil talk]
>Geralt leaves, is approached by the girl.
>"Geralt, I want you to kill the wizard, cause he wants to kill me."
>[More lesser evil talk]
>Next day, Geralt has to rush into the town to kill the girl and her band of bandits because they took a little girl hostage to draw out the wizard off his magic tower.
>Wizard leaves after everyone is dead, wants to grab the girl's body to examine.
>Geralt won't let it.
>Wizard pins all the blame of killing "innocent" people on Geralt
>He is forced to leave town, shunned and now nicknamed The Butch of Shittown.
If anything, it is a tale of WHY not taking a stance is a bad idea.
Nice. The general brainlet take on 2 bad choices is to chose nothing and pretend its better. Sometimes making a hard choice is the thing to be done and acknowledged rather than avoided and passed on.
Geralt could've taken the job, killed a sus lilith-spawn, get paid, made connections with the wizard.
Geralt could've killed the wizard, saved a possibly lilith-spawn, made connections with her gang and looted the wizard's tower.
Instead, he ended up doing the service for free, and got blamed too.
The Emperor was like a lot of dictators throughout history, Stalin, Mao, etc. He had good intentions, he just fricked it all up.
"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions". You can have "good intentions" and still be evil or driven by hubris or power hungry. I'm sure Bill Gates thinks he has good intentions by buying up so much farm land for his own use.
The Emperor is just a poor mans Ethereal who lacked the Greater Good ideology to actually move his race let alone other races towards a bright future
Aliens tried to rape and kill us. He did what was needed. If youre a human whos against IoM, youre a traitor.
Because we're humans and that's fricking based. You want to be a pussy communist b***h go live with the Tau and get neutered and eventually euthanized when you need "free healthcare" in a society where you are literally a second class citizen.
You fricking homosexual.
Priestly said the Emperor's motivation was benevolent.
It was about bring people together and eliminating ignorance and thus chaos.
bringing*
i hate book gays.
The Emperor was a good guy.
He had a good plan
He had good methods
Frick off
>emp'r wass a gud boy, dindonothin!
Have the courage to admit great works require hardship and difficult choices.
There we go.
Covers both really.
Tau psyop thread, ignore.
bugmusk huffers strike again
"They [Primarchs] feed on glory as if it were a palpable sustenance. Their own glory, of course, no different from the kings and emperors of old. It scarcely crosses their minds that glory matters nothing to me. I could have had a planet’s worth of glory any time I wished it when I walked in the species’ shadow throughout prehistory. Only three of them ever thought to ask why I timed my emergence as I did." (Big E conversing with Custodian Ra in Master of Mankind)
Which three asked the question?
It's called Apologetics
>Apologetics (from Greek ἀπολογία, lit.'speaking in defense') is the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines through systematic argumentation and discourse. Early Christian writers (c. 120–220) who defended their beliefs against critics and recommended their faith to outsiders were called Christian apologists.
Because that guy from Turkey is actually a copycat of Jesus of Nazareth a.k.a. rabbi yashea ben yousif
the Emperor isnt from Turkey or Jebus
He is from modern day Turkey, though.
> He was born in the 8th Millennium B.C. in a primitive Neolithic village along the banks of the Sakarya River in Anatolia.
hes not from modern day turkey you moron, hes from pre-history anatolia.
space conan is their daddy so all the moronic lore is actually super consistent and not at all a ripoff of dunc
actually though there were reasons for some of the things he did other than personal gain but a big chunk of it is just moronic writing.
>His supremacy ensures Human supremacy
>This is a bad thing apparently
Xenos hands typed this post
its just self hatred
The Emperor did in fact have good intentions but that's not the point.
The point is that he decided that only he's the smartest and most capable man out there. He would decide what the plan is and how to carry it out. He would judge the risks and take them. He alone could fix it and everyone else had to listen to him.
Regardless of your intentions, this kind of authoritarian system creates a single point of failure. Despite his power and foresight he is still at a fallible human at the end of the day. Nobody should have that kind of power and control precisely because of that.
I'm going to leave you with a quote from Frank Herbert, the writer of Dune which is one of the core influences on 40k
>Don't give over all of your critical faculties to people in power, no matter how admirable those people may appear to be. Beneath the hero's facade you will find a human being who makes human mistakes. Enormous problems arise when human mistakes are made on the grand scale available to a superhero.
>Heroes are painful, superheroes are a catastrophe. The mistakes of superheroes involve too many of us in disaster.