Why do people always assume that the Imperium will win every ground battle against the Galactic Empire? Some argue that Stormtroopers cannot defeat Titans and space marine, or that the Guardsman outnumbers bullets. While they are powerful, I don't think they are that op, especially since we've seen the Tau handle those quite effectively with tactics and advanced technology.
Goku wins.
not if sasuke uses tsukuyomi.
Who are you citing? This sounds like made up bullshit you're spewing just to start an argument.
Also, take it to the 40k General or Star Wars General.
92114170
/tg/ how?
I really feel that Montreal steak seasoning should be part of this conversation
I think the most interesting interaction between the Imperium of Mankind and the Empire wouldnt be them fighting. It would the empire being in awe, utter awe at the sheer and utter control the Imperium has over its people, who are little more than slaves, the recources it draws from and its incredible technology thats beyond anything star wars can do tech wise but no one understands how it works or can replicate it.
The Empire should see the Imperium as it is a corrupted, swollen, suffocating political entity and strive to join it, to break tradition and fall in love with it and do everything it can to emulate it, the lowering of living standards, the mass conscription of humans, the normalisation of the execution of their own men, the genocide of all aliens. Only to realise its not enough the Imperium wants more and more and to strip them of every recource they have, no long term planning just sheer consumption of resources. Alike to how the tyranids stripping a planet, so to would the Imperium strip everyworld it could reach of material wealth, material resources,resoureces of people to feed its eternal war and colonisation of worlds.
It should be less a fight and more like a abusive relationship where the Empire is just consumed and destroyed by the Imperium. Not by sheer force but by the nature of the political beast that is the Imperium, being everything the Empire wishes it could be and just not having the resources, technology, esoteric magic or will to compete with the Imperium.
This is a lorelet take, as the Empire is multiple times as large as the Imperium and has exponentially superior FTL.
The Empire has superior technology on several levels, not just space combat. If you get into EU stuff, there are also Force Users who can kill entire planets solo, not even the golden toilet man can do tgat.
>The Empire has superior technology on several levels
I disagree anon, pic related
>If you get into EU stuff, there are also Force Users who can kill entire planets solo
40k also has little lore blurbs of crazy power levels like that. Like the Cacodominus mind controlling 1,300 STAR SYSTEMS at the same time from its psychic power. So killing 1 single planet is something both have beings that can do that
>The Empire has superior technology
Fricking where?
>lorelet
>uses the lorelet reason of starwars having better FTL
Anon in the manderlorian when his ships gets fricked up by spiders and its welded back together, they travel SUBlight speed to get to the next star system, which seems to take a few hours/days at most. I know dave filloni is a fricking idiot and thats a plothole but if its not then star wars has a physically much smaller galaxy that is much much closer together, so there FTL may actually be much much slower since they're going such tiny distances.
But I know what you mean, starwars jumps to hyperspace and gets anywhere in the galaxy after about a single scene spent travelling if that, but thats 40k has a fundementally different system than other sci-fi for FTL.
In universe the Imperium has the BEST FTL travel thanks to the Astronomicon, thats why the Imperium is so dominate and is the great power in the galaxy. They can go much much further per warp jump than anyone else and travel through the warp faster.
I think since FTL is such a sci-fi idea both the Imperium and the Empire/ star wars should be tied for FTL speed and not have one be way superiour over the other. Getting into the realm of
>star wars fleets spend hours to travel distances it takes the imperium days or weeks
is the worst kind of nerd arguement.
The Imperium can also send messages FTL via astropaths, star wars cant it relies on someone travelling from point to point to spread information.
>Imperium has the best FTL travel
This is so moronic it physically hurts. The Imperium are practically chimps compared to the Necrons and their space dominance on a ship-to-ship comparison.
Then again tge Necrons should have "won" 40k forever ago, and only haven't because of the author's giving the other factions plot armor and using the moronic "infighting" excuse.
I was quoting the Lex Imperialis with that line, so long befoe the necrons as a concept was introduced into 40k.
I don't know about any mentions of how they travel FTL and how it compares to the Imperium.
It might be described as 'spooky highly advanced technology that seems like magic' but the necrons have never out manvoured the imperium in space where they can just raid planets and then move on before the Imperium fleets can even catch up. So they're evenly matched if anything. The Imperium is the dominate if dying power in the galaxy and having the best FTL is the reason why they are ( a dying) top dog
Codex Imperialis* not Lex my bad
>I don't know about any mentions of how they travel FTL and how it compares to the Imperium.
Well, their ships won't summon space demons to devour their crew and the entire universe, so they already hold an advantage.
True, but on 'crew eaten by deamons in the warp' idea. Isn't that just the 40k sci-fi version of the old ancient greek myth of Sirens singing on rocks and drawing sailors to their death. Like its a story about what could happen but it never really does. theres the odd ship mentioned here and there, like the Vile Savants, but its never a serious day to day problem that has destroyed crusades or killing important characters on the regular.
Kraken
The Imperium's FTL travel and ships are worse on a one to one comparison. It's not even close. The difference between Necron ships and Imperium ships is like difference between Covenant and UNSC ships in Halo.
The real reason the Necrons aren't the dominant space power is because the Imperium just has a frickton MORE ships. Doesn't matter if 1 on 3 is an even fight for you if a battle means being outnumbered 1 on 10.
It ain't the best in the universe, the webway is, which is why the Emperor tried to steal it and how the Eldar were able to maintain a galaxy-spanning Empire.
It's not perfect, but I'd rather travel through the Webway then the Warp.
The Empire is not larger lol it’s most major battles are often fought by mere thousands of people. Its warships are also paper airplanes that will be popped by even Imperial Strikecraft. The Empire is a house of cards that will immediately collapse upon confronting a peer power.
EU isn’t canon anymore
>as the Empire is multiple times as large as the Imperium
And South and North America is larger than Britain.
>exponentially superior FTL.
Depending on what galaxy this nonsense takes place, SW's FTL would be severely kneecapped if it's outside it's own. Hyperspace lanes are charted, which is how they get around so easily. In 40k's universe they'd have no way of getting around except with short jumps.
Most of star wars uses Napoleonic-tier tactics (although that can be forgiven due to moronic writers), while Imperium uses combined arms
Imperium has quite a few hard to deal with units, and not just Titans. Knights, space marines and baneblades are b***h to deal with
Imperium uses a higher variety of units for many situations
Imperium is far more fanatical
Based take. Remember, Imperium is perfectly willing to play the long game, and galactic empire, while defeateable, would leave quite some scars, b***h to occupy and leave Imperium vulnerable to other enemies
Slow consumption of Empire, diplomatic dealings where sides grind the teeth but ultimately stand more to gain on cooperation, culture shock. Maybe even Sheev sees writing on the wall and joins on special terms, like another mars
>while Imperium uses combined arms
The Imperiuim's 'combined arms' is by and large a mixture of medieval tactics and napoleonic tactics
The Empire wins because there was some attempt in lore to make their system plausible. They have all the resources of the galaxy at their whim but they still could only maintain so many ships and armies were small and scattered. This is close how it works IRL. A
40k is a nonsensical setting where no thought or logic waa put into its design. It's quite literally the equivalent of something a 10 year old playing with toys would concoct. It's all looks, no substance, to sell .03 cents worth of plastic to undiscerning moronic manchildren for $90. Nothing about the world building makes sense or stands up to any scrutiny.
Therefore it's pointless to debate who would win because one side (Star Wars) has some semblance of structure and therefore limitations while the other (40k) is just nonsense make it up as you go along shit.
Thats a cop out. 40k does have structure. You cant tell me on one hand psykers dont make sense but then say that Jedi do.
The Force at its core is just extremely favorable luck and psychic/telekinetic abilities. Poorly defined and turned into typical capeshit goyslop by the prequels and beyond, but it has observable limits on what it can and can't do.
40k Psykers and other warp tapping entities have no such limitations. Orkz can completely ignore their illogical existence because they simply "believe" in shit and the warp makes it true, like painting things red makes it faster or that they don't need proper logistics because they just psychically will anything they need into existence. Yet even though the warp is literal All Your Made Up Bullshit Is Real Because You Believe In It nonsense, for some reason Orkz and other warp using entities aren't invincible Gods of destruction (except when they are, like that one Chaos lord who keeps resurrecting in other people's bodies like a Matrix Agent because...reasons) because then there could be no plot or setting. Same reason why the quadrillions strong multiple armies of the Tyranids that somehow defy the basic laws of the universe and entropy haven't swept the galaxy clean yet, or why the invincible death robots with hyper advanced tech and literal Gods of death commanding them never do anything but wake up and destroy the planet they're sleeping on before going back to sleep, or why Orkz with one of the most ridiculous reproductive cycles in all SciFi are able to ignore basic biology but even though they're like a literal fungal infection that endlessly produce more soldiers when they die they haven't taken over the galaxy because reasons, or why the demonic hell forces that literally cannot be destroyed and don't have to worry about logistics haven't taken over the galaxy.
40k is all made up nonsense. There's a strong logical reason why an AT AT exists and looks like it does in Star Wars. There's zero reason why most of the shit in 40k looks or functions like it does other than rule of cool. You can't compare the settings.
>Orks are able to will anything into existence
lorelet detected, opinion rejected.
>There's a strong logical reason why an AT AT exists and looks like it does in Star Wars
Yeah, because that's what the prop guys could make out of a hundred airfix models.
The Empire jobs to le plucky rebels all the time, meanwhile Imperium is holding on after 10k years of fighting multiple horrific enemies each of whom would wipe out Star Wars. The rebelion that brought down the Empire happens every day in 40k on a much greater scale and is immediately snuffed out by the local chapter of Space Marines or the Imperial Navy.
>starwars isn't completely nonsensical
Lol. Lmao even
LOL
Space marines die to sharpened sticks all the time. It's called orks.
8 foot tall behemoth tearing you apart with a power claw is a step above getting jumped in a build a bear.
the average ork boyz are just as strong as space marines
star wars just does the 'huge number to sound important' leaving it vague like 40k is better
Endor was a deathworld filled with some Catachan tier bullshit in the old EU. Those build a bears were built to kill. They're basically ratling sized catachans.
Because warhammer fanboys are delusional and like their headcanon of what the setting is better than what it actually is. This is what happens when you’re a fan of easily digestible video essay and not a book or a movie.
Imagine wasting your time comparing two settings with wildly different laws of physics.
There are too many examples of the Empire being pathetic for it to be taken seriously. For every novel or sourcebook written by uplifted star wars fans there is executive level stuff (cartoons or films) that just totally ignores that and portrays the Empire as massively inefficient and ww2 but with neon lighting tier.
The million worlds thing is a vibe based comment, its not any more literal than the phrase "inexhaustible armies" means they cannot get tired or ever run out. Both are shorthands for 'big/we don't know'.
>There were trillions of worlds in the galaxy, perhaps billions of them were suitable for human habitation. The Imperium consisted of a million worlds, they said, but she had realised a long time ago that was a figurative number. - Dawn of Fire: Avenging Son
both settings are very inconsistent when it comes to numbers, but both the Empire and the Imperium are often implied to be stretched thin
Because star wars is shit.
It's indeed shit, but that doesn't change the fact thay a single dark jedi could single-handedly slaughter legions of space marines without difficulty.
One jobbed to ewoks
The other lasted 10k years in unending siege from all sides
Here's a better alternative. Both empires...unite.
Well Anon, it's because every sci-fi setting fricking sucks at scale. The Republic's clone army during the Galactic civil war was at any given time about 1.2 million clones, with more being furbished to replace losses. This is spread across the fricking galaxy. 1.2 million men could maybe, if they don't fight back, occupy Spain, or possibly France.
Meanwhile, there are individual planets in the Imperium with populations in the trillions. They had to stop counting on Necromunda because they hit several billion before they finished the upper levels of one fricking hive city out of millions on the planet. The Imperial Guard loses more men in transit accidents every day than died in both Galactic Civil Wars combined. What in Star Wars was considered a ludicrous display of firepower--destroying a planet--is the sort of thing the Imperium of Man might do because of a rounding error or because they didn't pay their taxes 120 years ago. Of course the Imperium would kick the shit out of the Empire, the grand army of the Republic is smaller than North Korea's. The force that attacked the Death Star over Yavin was 30 fighters. Even the fricking Tau field larger armies. The Eldar are literally in the process of going extinct and THEY can still field armies hundreds of times the size of the Grand Army of the Republic.
>one fricking city out of million
No. There are not that many hive cities and we know that. An event of one being overrun by pantsu thieves was noticeable and is explicitly pointed as such in lore.
There are 38862 hive worlds in the imperium
Star Wars galaxy as a whole has a history that is roughly 1/10th of GEOM's existence, with Sidious alone having 1/5000th of age, yet it took far less time for Palpatine to get planet shitting power. Also, EMpire are designated villains for a teen/chilfren setting that alone gimps them massively that for Imperium ground battles are a joke.
Now I will present to you a worthy opponent for the Imperium: Dark Empire, Eternal!
EU- Palpatine wins the galaxy and after killing Vong, he gets 500 years of unoppossed rule and everything going his way.
>We stocked our ships full of Imperial amasec and lasguns
>We mobilised the navy and we called up the marines
>We flew two weeks 'til we reached the Eastern Fringe
>So we could teach a lesson to those bloody xenophiles
[i]Noname Praetorian guardsman durring the dinner in Supreme Chancellor office.[/i]
shouldn't it be 200 years?
It's already practically impossible to determine how strong 40k and Star Wars are in their own setting because of a total lack of hard powerscaling, when you combine them together the situation becomes exponential as there's no hard rules for comparing the two already schizophrenic arguments and it essentially all falls down to vibes.
Worse - canonically, a vast majority of conflicts between the Empire and Imperium would be Imperial Guard vs. Imperial Army and anyone who talks about Force Users, Space Marines, Titans, Knights, Stormtroopers, Clones or whatever else are literally skipping 90+% of the conflicts to throw their favourite toys together immediately. Most fans on either side have no idea how these factions operate and only want to see how their favourites do so it's even more of a doomed discussion.
Even assuming empire wouldn't just throw bodies at a problem like 50% of large scale ground combat in sw goes, guard armies have much better variety of units and better morale.
One major issue the Empire would have to deal with is the least quantifiable one: morale.
In 40k, everyone is a crazed zealot and weapons they wield are often intended to be horrifying. Stormtroopers are going to break and run when they start getting c it to ribbons by chainswords or seeing their buddies bisected by bolter shells exploding inside of them. Titans blaring their warhorns is way scarier than an AT-AT. Even certain Guard regiments are going to unnerve them with their willingness to always fight to the death and engage in suicidal tactics to achieve victory. And for Space Marines, post-human dread is a thing in 40k that’s equally going to affect Stormtroopers, if not more so.
>Another muh Empire vs Imperium thread
Guess OP needed some extra (you)s today
>Why do people always assume that the Imperium will win every ground battle against the Galactic Empire?
People know track record of the galactic empire.
>Why do people always assume that the Imperium will win every ground battle against the Galactic Empire?
It's a vibe check.
The Imperium is an ancient monolith that has existed for ten thousand years, fighting constant wars against innumerable hordes of inhuman monsters. It has a seemingly inexhaustible supply of murderous fanatics who care more about hurting the enemy than preserving their own lives.
The Empire on the other hand is something that lasted for a few decades, fighting against a plucky band of rebels. It seemingly exhausts itself after a few set piece battles, and the elite troops are famously bad at being able to shoot people.
>Why do people always assume that the Imperium will win every ground battle against the Galactic Empire?
Because of the sheer scale everything that 40k makes itself to be. Also 40k fanboys are a bit biased.
>Also 40k fanboys are a bit biased.
We're extremely biased.
the Imperium is really fricking tiny honestly, having only a million planet's versus the Galactic Empire's 70 million or so worlds
>By the time of the Empire Palpatine ruled one and a half million member and conquered worlds, as well as sixty-nine million colonies, protectorates and puppet states spread throughout the entire galaxy
According to this the Galactic Empire is seventy times the size of the Imperium
Now of course this is just using the most commonly accepted figures, in my 100% not official headcanon the Imperium has a little over a hundred million Star Systems at any given time and an unknown number of worlds since that makes more sense to me but in these versus debates its always better to use the actual Canon and not just what you think.
>the Imperium is really fricking tiny honestly, having only a million planet's versus the Galactic Empire's 70 million or so worlds
The million worlds thing is apocryphal, see
Actual numbers are far higher
>WITHIN THE CHAPEL, one might have thought they stood inside a church upon any one of billions of hive-worlds across the Imperium. - Heart of Rage
The Imperium is so sparsely settled that there are hundreds of alien empires within its "borders"
why can't imperium just kill them all
The Imperium is basically moronic and only kept alive by plot armor
Because unlike
would have you believe they're all stretched painfully thin to the point that fricking Genestealers have a sizeable presence on Terra and the Imperium can't do sweet frickall about it, much less about the Hive Fleet knocking on Terra's doorstep
After losing the first couple of battles with horrendous casualties, the Empire eventually realizes that the Imperium doesn't have anything approaching a hyperdrive and starts Base Delta Zeroing everything they can safely attack. They then build a few Death Stars, or maybe just a bunch of Darksabers since that's all they really need, and then start destroying the more well defended planets in the Imperium. Eventually they reach Terra and Mars and end the Imperium once and for all.
>*Rad-Tempest devices your fleet, melting the crew of dozens of ships at once with my 30km wide radiation cloud*
>*Unleashes a Cybernetica Orb on your formations, obliterating your entire electronic systems because your shields don't even teleport things into another dimension*
>*Starts blasting your ISD's with Nova Cannon shots at our leisure*
>*Mechadominator's your Death Start, makes it blow up your garrison planet*
>*Unleashes my armies of psychotic cyborg war machines, unfeeling robots with napalm guns, and lobotomized slave rangers firing radioactive bullets over your barely trained conscripts from backwater planets*
>*Shoots a time traveling black hole in the general direction of your Emperor's flagship, which he foolishly is still on, and makes him explode when a version of himself from the future is teleported inside his own body (He cannot evade this attack with precognition because the Dark Age is bullshit)*
>your Emperor's flagship, which he foolishly is still on
Oh come on, don't do "le hubris" or "death by artillery" stuff. Warhammer commanders get in apcs and ride into battle so they can fight with swords. Literally every faction would've lost all their named characters in less than a hundred years with that kind of thinking.
>Shoots a time traveling black hole in the general direction of your Emperor's flagship, which he foolishly is still on
Because 40K named characters NEVER fight on the frontlines you hypocritical gaylicker.
Also lets not forget the last time the Admech tried to use any tech better than their stiltboys and chicken walkers they accidentally summoned Vashtorr up their own buttholes and clutched defeat from the jaws of victory.
Basically what I said. Empire loses badly in the first few battles and then switches to using their superior mobility to wreck the Imperiums shit.
Glad we agree.
>to wreck the Imperiums shit.
You mean to loose even harder in defensive battles?
pretty sure empire can sent way more reinforcements in days
The empires fleet can cross a galaxy in a week, the imperium would take a century to put together a crusade force. Imperium is destroyed by the empire before the high lords are even aware of their existence
>Why do people always assume that the Imperium will win every ground battle against the Galactic Empire?
The Empire has moronic clumsy walkers and their most elite unit got steamrolled by teddy bears. The Imperium has larger clumsy walkers that are stolen upscaled star wars designs and more troops.
It wouldn't matter though because the Imperium would lose in space.
In terms of space battles, Empire ships are going to run fricking circles around anything the Imperium has, no joke, but in terms of ground combat they're going to lose.
However, there is an element that can be considered: reverse engineering. The Empire would absolutely bring its tech up to par from looted Imperium ships because they would have some time to do so, with the Imperium's stretched thin forced and notoriously slow and unreliable bureaucracy freezing their response. I have no doubt they can carve out a respectable Tau-style minor power role, even if they can't bring it all down.
To Iron Warrior gays, how accurate is this?
>IW says I am not a mad men
I don't even think Iron Warriors claim to not be madman. They're as crazy as WE berserkers, but instead of being blood mad berzerkers they are siege/trench/ attrition warfare experts. When the IW commit to a battle they commit a holocaust on mortal slaves/captives. Instead of being shipped to camps to be worked to death or killed they're shipped to the front line to dig trenchs, build fortifications and test enemy defences. They like the red army send more men than the enemy has bullets, and then the marines show up as elite commando units, burning and exploding enemy positions. Waves of heavy armour and deamon engines that are fueled, literally, by blood sacrifices of mortals. They also created the obliterator virus, to turn individual marines into living heavy weapons team.
IW are madmen, orgainised and disciplined madmen
>casually kills jedi