Dude, I know that most Pokemon fans have IQ in 80s but It's not that difficult. Unique typing with valuable resistances + wide array of moves + great ability boosting most of it's offensive options (and mitigating LO's damage lul).
That mediocre 85 Sp.ATK is good enough when you remember that all relevant moves for it are boosted by Sheer Force and Life Orb.
>They just make special sets instead.
Name one (1) physical Ground-type move that both Nidoking and Nidoqueen can learn that have their power boosted by Sheer Force.
Even with that in mind most of Nidoking's physical coverage is in the bad to okay range (Rock Slide, Iron Tail), doesn't work off Sheer Force (Superpower, Megahorn), or is just notably worse than its special counterpart (Elemental Punches).
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 136-161 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
vs
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 130-153 (38.1 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And honestly Nidoking can still end up liking a mixed set with Superpower depending on the meta. But full physical even with a sheer force ground move would really just end up making it better at one thing at the expense of all the other things it does.
> But full physical even with a sheer force ground move
It doesn't need a sheer force ground-move, it has Earthquake.
It needs Gunk Shot for the physical set as you'd only be clicking EQ against Ground-weak mons anway.
Unless you have special wall in front of you.
Reason why you run mixed set is not because it hits harder out of context but because it can hit good enough from both offensive stats and punish players running on defensive schematics. If you run pure special attacker your opponent will just put their special wall in front of you and force you to switch... unless you surprise them with physical attack!
Because a 90 BP move boosted by Sheer Force and Life Orb effectively has 152 BP and no downsides. Not even counting STAB,
Nidoking not only has the highest SpA of any non-Uber Sheer Force user, but also has really good coverage, so it's hitting a lot of shit super-effectively with said moves.
I don't even play compshit but let's have a look. >resistances to fairy, rock, and fighting which are all very common attacking types >immunity to electric to cuck volt switches and get easy switch-ins >almost unrivalled diversity in its movepool, with sheer force to give most of those moves extra umph >bulky enough to tank some things >decent speed
He's the original jack of all trades
Meanwhile you jack off all gays
It's not a glitch when the mechanic has existed for four generations now.
Anyway, Nidoking has always been good in-game due to being able to evolve early, good stats and a massive movepool. Competitively, it's OU in a few metagames and viable in OU in almost all of them.
Sheer Force is a real crapshoot of an ability, it either propels a Pokemon to high competitive viability or does absolutely nothing for them even if they have the moves to use it.
M Camerupt is purely a victim of megas being a half-assed system where only the absolute best get used due to 1 per team limit, sheer force heatwave in TR coming off 145 special attack is busted
I mean you don't have to play OU or just use the top meta team. Mega Camerupt still had competition in RU but it was perfectly usable. If you like it and want to use it build a team around it and you'll do fine.
>megas being a half-assed system where only the absolute best get used due to 1 per team limit
Every single Pokemon is a half-assed system where only the absolute best get used due to 6 per team limit
Mega Camerupt wasn't that bad, it was a decent if gimmicky doubles mon, especially in gen 7 where it took advantage of the tapu terrain wars to abuse Sheer Force Nature Power for crazy coverage.
It's not even the problem.
It's got dogshit defensive typing with no speed, and unlike Primal Groudon, a water gun is going to murder it
and the biggest problem - the special attack boost isn't even enough compared to regular form with life orb and theoretic sheer force
>252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 246-290 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 237-280 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 169-200 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
>252 SpA Sheer Force Mega-Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 187-222 (42.1 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
I think it's alright and fair
said, it's supposed to be an improvement, not a fricking downgrade. Like laugh at Mega-Garchomp, but with sand force working, those Earthquakes are fricking moronic (it would've been a good mega if not for the stupid speed drop)
>252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 222-262 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 183-216 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
> would've been a good mega if not for the stupid speed drop
I think the speed drop was Game Freak prioritize Game Balance over Shillmon Privilege for once. M. Garchomp with 102 or more speed would be even more broken than Garchomp already is.
>M. Garchomp with 102 or more speed would be even more broken than Garchomp already is.
Not really. Gen VI had nerfs to the BP of moves like Draco Meteor and Fire Blast, so Mega Chomp is actually weaker in Gen VI than the LO Chain Chomp set was in Gen V.
Mega Chomp is basically Kyurem-Black without an item slot. It's an awful Pokemon with badly optimized stats but could easily have been fixed with a focus on tanking and not mixed attacking.
I think with 102 speed It would've been miles better. Basically, it's close to life orb damage as a mega without the suicide orb, and that's before even calculating sand force, which would've been easy with how splashable sandstorm (be it TTAR or Hippo) is
>252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 183-216 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
>252 Atk Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 171-202 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
and with sand -
>252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 222-262 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
2 years ago
Anonymous
>I think with 102 speed It would've been miles better.
It doesn't need the speed anymore because of Scale Shot. What it needs is higher defense so you can put some EVs into defense so it isn't as easily killed by a scarfer.
At 125 defense, Mega Chomp needs 216 EVs to have the same defense as regular Garchomp. No scarfer in the game can OHKO that Mega Chomp at +1 speed, not even Tapu Lele.
At that point you can give it literally any ability an it would still be great. The problem with Mega Chomp has always been the bad stat distribution.
>M. Garchomp with 102 or more speed would be even more broken than Garchomp already is.
Not really. Gen VI had nerfs to the BP of moves like Draco Meteor and Fire Blast, so Mega Chomp is actually weaker in Gen VI than the LO Chain Chomp set was in Gen V.
Mega Chomp is basically Kyurem-Black without an item slot. It's an awful Pokemon with badly optimized stats but could easily have been fixed with a focus on tanking and not mixed attacking.
>M. Garchomp with 102 or more speed would be even more broken than Garchomp already is.
Also in Gen VI, Garchomp keeps its pre-Mega speed the turn it Mega Evolves, so this was a moot point anyway.
In Smogon's national dex meta Mega Chomp can run SD+Scale Shot to boost it's speed but outside of wallbreaking/sweeping it's still worse. Regular Garchomp doesn't have the opportunity cost of a mega stone.
Eh.
For a lot of pokemon, you start getting diminishing returns once your break 100 speed. A hair over 100, like Garchomp has, is basically minmaxed.
130+ is the next major "holy shit, this thing is fast" benchmark... and I think Mega Garchomp would have actually achieved it if it just didn't waste any points in Special Attack and put that over into Speed instead. I forget what its Mega gains actually are.
Either way, it's not difficult to make something better than what we got.
>you start getting diminishing returns once your break 100 speed
Only for unpopular Pokémon.
Look at Purugly for example. It has 112 Speed and only 82 Attack. If it were to have its Attack stat increased, that would actually make it worse, just like how Rock and Ice being buffed would actually end up makinh Aurorus worse than before.
This is why I said theoretic sheer force, anon.
Even a theoretic Sheer force + Life orb is fricking better than the mega, this is the problem. It needed MORE power.
kind of doubt it, the earthquakes would be strong but you would lose all the good coverage. Also 102 attack isn't actually that much more than 85, since stats scale in line with each other with additions of IV's and EV's. Accounting for those, it's more like 147 to 130, when dropping tbolt for tpunch is a much more significant drop
also this is a massively obvious bait thread and everyone ate it up
It's also necessary to have the stats for it.
The ability overwhelmingly favors special attackers despite mostly being given to physical attackers.
Nidoking's mediocre, non-minmaxed stats are a plus in this case.
This bait doesn’t work with a Gen 1 mon, they all get so many special snowflake treatment and pandering that there aren’t any Gen 1 absolute shitmons left.
STABS + ice beam and flamethrower blows everything away, it basically sees resurgences when special attackers get banned leading to a lack of Blissey usage on top off Slowking falling off, so Nidoking doesn’t have to bother running focus punch or thunderbolt. In the current meta Nidoking is a pokemon that supposedly 6-0s standard tourneygay teams but manages to do jackshit because a lot of people still run Modest for some god forsaken reason.
Nidoking is really niche. When its counters are prevalent, it's clearly shit, but when they aren't there, it'll suddenly come back to kick ass. It's such an anomaly.
Shit how? He's got a great moveset, good abilities(or at least one of them is good), and a good typing, along with his stats not being bad just mediocre. Also he was even better in the earlier gens.
>fanfic meta
Rofl
it's cool as frick
>calling motherfricking Nidoking a shitmon
Mega cringe
Just look at its stats dude
It's only decent stat is ATK and people don't even use that.
They just make special sets instead.
Look at its movepool homie
>Just look at its stats!
Dude, I know that most Pokemon fans have IQ in 80s but It's not that difficult. Unique typing with valuable resistances + wide array of moves + great ability boosting most of it's offensive options (and mitigating LO's damage lul).
That mediocre 85 Sp.ATK is good enough when you remember that all relevant moves for it are boosted by Sheer Force and Life Orb.
>They just make special sets instead.
Name one (1) physical Ground-type move that both Nidoking and Nidoqueen can learn that have their power boosted by Sheer Force.
You cant.
Even with that in mind most of Nidoking's physical coverage is in the bad to okay range (Rock Slide, Iron Tail), doesn't work off Sheer Force (Superpower, Megahorn), or is just notably worse than its special counterpart (Elemental Punches).
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 136-161 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
vs
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 130-153 (38.1 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And honestly Nidoking can still end up liking a mixed set with Superpower depending on the meta. But full physical even with a sheer force ground move would really just end up making it better at one thing at the expense of all the other things it does.
> But full physical even with a sheer force ground move
It doesn't need a sheer force ground-move, it has Earthquake.
It needs Gunk Shot for the physical set as you'd only be clicking EQ against Ground-weak mons anway.
Bulldoze
>I don't play the games
>WAOWAAAAAHHHHH!!!!! ITS STATS ARE SO HIGHHHHHH! ITT MUST BE AMAZZZZZING!!!!
It is if you play the game like a normal person
lol no, I've used this in a playthrough and it's complete garbage
slow, and dies to any special attack ever
Anon, you're going to summon a srawman by posting an Ice-type Pokémon.
defense is a very very shit stat
Better special movepool. You can do damage calcs and see it consistently outperform whatever physical set it could do.
>Earthquake is a Special Attack
lol
lmao even
Nobody ever uses EQ on Nidoking.
People running mixed Nido (the only valid set, btw) are running EQ.
Earth Power hits harder in every scenario.
Unless you have special wall in front of you.
Reason why you run mixed set is not because it hits harder out of context but because it can hit good enough from both offensive stats and punish players running on defensive schematics. If you run pure special attacker your opponent will just put their special wall in front of you and force you to switch... unless you surprise them with physical attack!
Because Smogon is gay
You lost to one, didn't you, OP?
Come here, there there.
Gen 1
Because a 90 BP move boosted by Sheer Force and Life Orb effectively has 152 BP and no downsides. Not even counting STAB,
Nidoking not only has the highest SpA of any non-Uber Sheer Force user, but also has really good coverage, so it's hitting a lot of shit super-effectively with said moves.
>NU in Gen 1
>Jumps to OU in Gen 2
>Has been able to be consistently in UU for six gens now
KNEEL to your majesty
>nidoking stays uu while starmie falls from ou to nu in two gens
Cope, Hoennbaby. All of your SFMAs have lost any relevance they might have had over the years, with them fated to rot in PU for the rest of their days
whatsa uu tier? Is this like that owo stuff?
I don't even play compshit but let's have a look.
>resistances to fairy, rock, and fighting which are all very common attacking types
>immunity to electric to cuck volt switches and get easy switch-ins
>almost unrivalled diversity in its movepool, with sheer force to give most of those moves extra umph
>bulky enough to tank some things
>decent speed
He's the original jack of all trades
Meanwhile you jack off all gays
>bulky enough to tank some things
Nidoking is frail. I think you meant "bulky enough to tank some resisted hits".
>op is too moronic to read a pokemon ability
To be fair, one of the biggest benefits of Sheer Force (LO recoil immunity) isn't even listed in-game and I'm pretty sure it's a glitch.
>glitch
>has been around for over a decade
It's not a glitch when the mechanic has existed for four generations now.
Anyway, Nidoking has always been good in-game due to being able to evolve early, good stats and a massive movepool. Competitively, it's OU in a few metagames and viable in OU in almost all of them.
Typing, Movepool, and Ability are crazy
Nidoking's one flaw is its stats and if you buffed it just a little it would be Uber alongside Lando-I.
Nothing beats the satisfaction of unexpectedly OHKOing with this thing
>sheer force
post elo
*ahem*
Learn what shitmon means
Sheer Force is a real crapshoot of an ability, it either propels a Pokemon to high competitive viability or does absolutely nothing for them even if they have the moves to use it.
Honestly the biggest Sheer Force letdown imo was Mega Camerupt. Poor fricker can't even hold a Life Orb.
M Camerupt is purely a victim of megas being a half-assed system where only the absolute best get used due to 1 per team limit, sheer force heatwave in TR coming off 145 special attack is busted
I mean you don't have to play OU or just use the top meta team. Mega Camerupt still had competition in RU but it was perfectly usable. If you like it and want to use it build a team around it and you'll do fine.
>megas being a half-assed system where only the absolute best get used due to 1 per team limit
Every single Pokemon is a half-assed system where only the absolute best get used due to 6 per team limit
Mega Camerupt wasn't that bad, it was a decent if gimmicky doubles mon, especially in gen 7 where it took advantage of the tapu terrain wars to abuse Sheer Force Nature Power for crazy coverage.
It's not even the problem.
It's got dogshit defensive typing with no speed, and unlike Primal Groudon, a water gun is going to murder it
and the biggest problem - the special attack boost isn't even enough compared to regular form with life orb and theoretic sheer force
>252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 246-290 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 237-280 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
as
said, it's supposed to be an improvement, not a fricking downgrade. Like laugh at Mega-Garchomp, but with sand force working, those Earthquakes are fricking moronic (it would've been a good mega if not for the stupid speed drop)
>252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 222-262 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 183-216 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
> would've been a good mega if not for the stupid speed drop
I think the speed drop was Game Freak prioritize Game Balance over Shillmon Privilege for once. M. Garchomp with 102 or more speed would be even more broken than Garchomp already is.
>M. Garchomp with 102 or more speed would be even more broken than Garchomp already is.
Not really. Gen VI had nerfs to the BP of moves like Draco Meteor and Fire Blast, so Mega Chomp is actually weaker in Gen VI than the LO Chain Chomp set was in Gen V.
Mega Chomp is basically Kyurem-Black without an item slot. It's an awful Pokemon with badly optimized stats but could easily have been fixed with a focus on tanking and not mixed attacking.
I think with 102 speed It would've been miles better. Basically, it's close to life orb damage as a mega without the suicide orb, and that's before even calculating sand force, which would've been easy with how splashable sandstorm (be it TTAR or Hippo) is
>252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 183-216 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
>252 Atk Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 171-202 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
and with sand -
>252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 222-262 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
>I think with 102 speed It would've been miles better.
It doesn't need the speed anymore because of Scale Shot. What it needs is higher defense so you can put some EVs into defense so it isn't as easily killed by a scarfer.
At 125 defense, Mega Chomp needs 216 EVs to have the same defense as regular Garchomp. No scarfer in the game can OHKO that Mega Chomp at +1 speed, not even Tapu Lele.
At that point you can give it literally any ability an it would still be great. The problem with Mega Chomp has always been the bad stat distribution.
>M. Garchomp with 102 or more speed would be even more broken than Garchomp already is.
Also in Gen VI, Garchomp keeps its pre-Mega speed the turn it Mega Evolves, so this was a moot point anyway.
In Smogon's national dex meta Mega Chomp can run SD+Scale Shot to boost it's speed but outside of wallbreaking/sweeping it's still worse. Regular Garchomp doesn't have the opportunity cost of a mega stone.
Eh.
For a lot of pokemon, you start getting diminishing returns once your break 100 speed. A hair over 100, like Garchomp has, is basically minmaxed.
130+ is the next major "holy shit, this thing is fast" benchmark... and I think Mega Garchomp would have actually achieved it if it just didn't waste any points in Special Attack and put that over into Speed instead. I forget what its Mega gains actually are.
Either way, it's not difficult to make something better than what we got.
>you start getting diminishing returns once your break 100 speed
Only for unpopular Pokémon.
Look at Purugly for example. It has 112 Speed and only 82 Attack. If it were to have its Attack stat increased, that would actually make it worse, just like how Rock and Ice being buffed would actually end up makinh Aurorus worse than before.
Anon....
Base Camerupt doesn't have Sheer Force
This is why I said theoretic sheer force, anon.
Even a theoretic Sheer force + Life orb is fricking better than the mega, this is the problem. It needed MORE power.
kek moron alert
Sheerforce should just always add power to moves and nullify effects. So physical would be better
kind of doubt it, the earthquakes would be strong but you would lose all the good coverage. Also 102 attack isn't actually that much more than 85, since stats scale in line with each other with additions of IV's and EV's. Accounting for those, it's more like 147 to 130, when dropping tbolt for tpunch is a much more significant drop
also this is a massively obvious bait thread and everyone ate it up
>Landorus with Sheer Force Earthquake and Superpower
>Cries in Steelix
It's also necessary to have the stats for it.
The ability overwhelmingly favors special attackers despite mostly being given to physical attackers.
Nidoking's mediocre, non-minmaxed stats are a plus in this case.
sheer force, life orb, amazing move pool
it's one of the best all-rounders
It's the best Pokemon to speedrun red/blue. That's what makes it famous
It's also a cute rabbit-lizard thing.
anything less than OU is a shitmon, sorry
>buff stats
>+Dragon Dance
>+Gunk Shot
there, now Nidoking is permanently OU
Sheer Force negates the recoil from Life Orb effectively giving Nidoking a free 30% boost to all attacks.
This bait doesn’t work with a Gen 1 mon, they all get so many special snowflake treatment and pandering that there aren’t any Gen 1 absolute shitmons left.
What the actual frick is Seaking
>HP: 81
>Attack: 82 (-20)
>Defense: 87 (+10)
>Sp. Atk: 145 (+60)
>Sp. Def: 85 (+10)
>Speed: 105 (+20)
Mega Nido
Sheer Force
>252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 169-200 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
>252 SpA Sheer Force Mega-Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 187-222 (42.1 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
I think it's alright and fair
STABS + ice beam and flamethrower blows everything away, it basically sees resurgences when special attackers get banned leading to a lack of Blissey usage on top off Slowking falling off, so Nidoking doesn’t have to bother running focus punch or thunderbolt. In the current meta Nidoking is a pokemon that supposedly 6-0s standard tourneygay teams but manages to do jackshit because a lot of people still run Modest for some god forsaken reason.
Nidoking is really niche. When its counters are prevalent, it's clearly shit, but when they aren't there, it'll suddenly come back to kick ass. It's such an anomaly.
>No mega
>No new forms
>Still based enough to give autists an aneurysm
Thats my boy
Because Nidokings look cool
Luckily good typing, movepool, and ability can compensate for bad stats
>both men playing as women
Despite its 85 special attack, having a 60% boost to all of its attacks on top of STAB and type effectiveness makes it hit really hard.
Shit how? He's got a great moveset, good abilities(or at least one of them is good), and a good typing, along with his stats not being bad just mediocre. Also he was even better in the earlier gens.
Sheer Force is a damn good ability and Nidoking has a good movepool to exploit it, that's why.
very good typing and sheer force + amazing offensive movepool
competitive pokemon sucks