>players want a dungeon
>set one up, have a puzzle at one part to open the door
>"Tap on the 5 beasts who ruled this land, from start to finish"
>reference to the former rulers of the kingdom, using the animals on each one's clan crest
>animals are also on carvings on wall, albeit not in order
>players are fricking stumped
>I give them history checks, they ignore me
>outright say shit like "The Redsoul Dynasty, first empire, was ruled by Tarkan the Dragon, then Sabi the Wolf, of the Hoarfrost Clans, took over..."
>they still don't fricking get it
>session ends, players complain
>lose temper, ask them if they want me to set up some stupid skyrim match-pillars puzzle instead
>they get mad back, say they're not dumb, I'm just a bad GM
>some of our more reasonable players get us calmed down, everyone's back home
I'm fricking mad. Follow the animal story shouldn't be so fricking hard, and I hate these homosexuals trying to blame it on me, the chucklefricks. I'm like one step above "follow the icons on the claw" and they act like I gave them nuclear physics to solve.
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"What you see in your head isn't what you're describing" is a common issue with these.
to the former rulers of the kingdom, using the animals on each one's clan crest
>animals are also on carvings on wall, albeit not in order
>players are fricking stumped
You've made a visual puzzle that requires a spatial awareness of the room people are in...
... while playing a game of pretend and only vaguely describing it to people.
>I'm just a bad GM
Correct
/thread
These anons are moronic players who don't even try to think at all before giving up and blaming the GM
The second someone becomes a player, they lose a solid 20 points of IQ. They may regain these later, but for the duration of the session, they will remain crippled.
It is known.
>you cannot imagine things based on description, this is impossible!
Full-time morons, possibly full-blown NPCs.
You are mistaking misanthropy for critical thinking again
Nothing in the post you're replying to was based in misanthropy or intended to showcase critical thinking. You're either illiterate or should take your meds.
>muh /misc/! muh /misc/!!
have a nice day.
>can't recognize it happening in themselves when a whole group of people fails to get their "obvious" puzzle
What are you talking about? You seem to be under the mistaken belief that
displays some kind of lack of empathy, when empathy has nothing to do with it. But just to be clear, I do empathize; I too have been a player, many times, and my IQ also drop by a solid 20 points of IQ. Nothing in the post suggested that anyone is immune to this effect. They're not. Players are functionally moronic relative to when they are not players.
If you feel targeted when the effects of low IQ is discussed or when morons are called out as morons in the general, you just might be moronic.
>Bumping this shitpile from the bottom of the catalog
>Nothing in the post suggested that anyone is immune to this effect
I wasn't responding to that post, I was responding to OP being a screeching moron who doesn't understand how his players don't have perfect access to information in his head, much like the criminals can't imagine the thoughts in the heads of others.
That's funny you posted that image here, I genuinely didn't realize it'd already been put in the thread.
I take back what I said about that anon screaming about “bump anon” being crazy, holy shit
Man you really are just posting straight /misc/ garbage now
>comes in
>spouts utter garbage
>buzzwords everywhere
>classic image macro used in place of critical thinking
>leaves immediately so he can perceive any form of criticism
As
have already described, visual puzzles only work if you scribble what they see down on a paper or alternatively, before you ask a player what he wants to do, you reiterate the current scene. However, as a GM, you don't only describe their senses but also what their characters know. Don't ask them for history checks (because really, how are they supposed to know that they know about the rulers in the first place?) and then describe the scene, including the knowledge they might have.
>While Elron crosses his arms, thinking about the problem, Josh, your character Alric thinks about the problem as well. [GM makes a hidden roll for Alric in history. Success] Stag, Wolf, Dragon...the way they are drawn mimic the sigils of the former rulers of this land. Alric has read about them before in the tome he carries with him. "The Year of the 5 rulers"
However, your puzzle must've been flawed in the first place if it relied on history checks to solve. What would you have done if they failed the checks? Go up and leave?
>relied on history checks
Work on your reading comprehension. He gave them history checks after they were clearly stumped. Not only that, the players ignored it. he gave them a chance to figure out themselves before delving into dice rolling.
>Ha gave them history checks
Correct
>He gave them a chance
Wrong.
Work on your reading comprehension
>He said, whole struggling with written fricking instructions
morons gonna moron, and then blame others, more news at 11!
Or you could try listening when your GM gives you a description and information.
>for what purpose?
The players might feel satisfaction at figuring something out themselves instead of rolling a die and being given the answer.
But, these are great informational posts on how to become and remain nogames.
>Or you could try listening when your GM gives you a description and information.
And what you gonna do when the descriptions and information are insufficient/faulty/both, as they usually are, for average GM doesn't take into account things in his head =/= message he's conveying.
Do yourself a favour, you dumb homosexual, and read GUMSHOE if you don't want skillchecks. That's how you should be handling puzzles. Otherwise you are just waiting for a disaster.
Also
>The players might feel
Did you asked them about it, or just assumed it ad hoc, you dumb yokel?
>what you gonna do when the descriptions and information are insufficient/faulty/both
>when multiple people in this thread have figured out the puzzle and the answer
I guarantee if the puzzle was posted seperately people here would be solving it no issue
>What you do when facing a problem?
>It is impossible for the problem to happen
I admire your confidence, although it comes of as incredibly wienery and arrogant. Especially since you can't provide the answer, or at least are unwilling to. Which further flags you out as the exact kind of person that can't adjust to the group stumbling, as it is "obvious" and they should figure it out, so let's bash them with the same set of informations that didn't work the first time. And then again and again, until they finally figure it out.
Because it just has to work, right? And if it doesn't, it means they are too dumb for it, aren't they?
>the classic "but it won't work in every single scenario/situation/hypothetical so it's bad" argument
The puzzle worked. Some players are morons who will get bashed over the head with puzzles until the pieces fit together. Of course whatever youtuber you watch won't agree with that, but nogames opinions are worthless
>Anticipating failure is a non-argument
>It's gonna work and if it won't, then blame it on players being stupid
Stellar GMing. Truly, the highlight of the craft, only a man that's been running for 30 years could come with such kernels of brilliance! You should write your own game, it would take the market by storm.
I can smell the sarcasm, but at the end of the day, GMs can only prep for so much. If I design a puzzle, they're getting that puzzle. They don't want to play? I'll get a replacement.
Nah. I'll burn your house down.
Last time I've checked, OP's group failed to solve the puzzle and then the whole thing descended into an angry argument. So it obviously didn't work out. But hey, you managed to tell anon that he's a no-game and follows e-celebs, while constantly deflecting the fact you can't provide any sort of solution, because solutions are for homosexuals.
>what if I'm a massive homosexual and the rest of the players at the table are as well
Not my fricking problem, homosexual. Pay your GM the attention he deserves.
Your shitty attention span isn't the GM's problem. Go play a video game, homosexual.
Your post makes it clear you don't pay attention to your GM at all.
The issue is that it’s just a lore and listening question, not even a riddle or puzzle. It’s like if the sphinx’s riddle is “what walks on four limbs as an infant, two as an adult and needs a cane when old?” Of course it’s a fricking person but if the sphinx is an autistic moron it’s much harder because the riddle is actually “what um you know craw- I mean walks of four legs as a child- I mean baby, two as a man, adult, grown up pers- I mean creature, and has a third leg- um, I mean support when old?” The group has no idea what he said beyond a third leg when old.
>what are you gonna do when you're a shit homosexual player who doesn't listen
boot you from my game, because you're a moron who can't listen to three words strung together.
No games ahoy, this is the post. Cograts.
Sadly, players are a diamond dozen, and GMs are rarer, especially good GMs.
>inb4
>I won't pay attention when my DM speaks and gives me descriptions
skill issue
>"One size fits all" is the solution to all problems, all in accordance to my own, personal preferences!
... you were saying something about being a no-game?
Yes, and your post made it very clear who is. Thank you anon, very kind of you to out yourself.
>listening to your GM is a one size fits all solution
Correct, well done moron. Just let your homosexual friends know they need to listen to the guy running the game and this problem is solved!
I honestly can't remember when I had an actual puzzle, the one to be solved by players as people sitting around the table, in any of the games. 2005? 6 maybe?
Same goes with all those "breaking monotony" activities that people time and again propose
>"No, I want YOU to convince the crowd"
>"No, try roleplaying through this, and by roleplaying I mean funny voices, not character actions"
>"No, I want you to just be a character in a movie playing in my head"
>"Stop rolling dice, dice is ruining everything!"
Play different systems, rather than forcing people to placate you with the wrong set of tools and taking them captive for the story that you should write down, rather than try to play-act through with a group of people that came to play games.
>I can't remember when I had to use braincells
Not my problem, anon.
Sounds like your GMs are massive morons who enforce moronation.
But I guess good on you to find folks who are moronic as you are.
The basic problem with this entire thread is players aren't paying attention to the GM at all.
Nice reading comprehension - I am the GM, not the player. But here, a (You) you are so much after. Can't see a fellow man struggle so much for human interaction
Or the GM could choke on my wiener lmao
Nice, Timmy. Your parents aren't monitoring your internet activity, quick, get on the 4chins and shitpost!
>Josh, your character Alric
>using player names
Disgusting
Puzzles are stupid shit, the builders of a dungeon aren't going to put that shit in just so that hundreds of years later midwits can pat themselves on the back over solving it.
It was good enough for Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien
>The party spends entire fricking day butting heads with a single puzzle
Yeah, it worked like a charm
>"Speak friend and enter"
>The runes on the door are elvish
>on a dwarven locked door
How did Gandalf become a Maiar with 80 IQ?
There was a typo in the message and it read
>"Speak, Friend and Enter"
He was tripped up by the stone carving obviously.
he was still gandalf the mutt, he only became white later
You ever bash your head against a puzzle in a game and then realize that you've been completely overthinking it and it's actually really simple?
That.
Stop quoting the book.
I am not expert on LotR lore, but I was under impression the doors you allude to were meant to be basically open to everyone - there was inscription on how to open it, after all.
Yup.
They're supposed to allow anyone to enter very easily because they were built during a time of peace and harmony and they symbolize a great alliance between two different people.
I like to think both Legolas and Gimli knew the answer but they were at the begining of the journey when they still hated each other so they prefered not to speak and ignore that elves and dwarves were sometime ago friends
No one who has responded so far also mention that the Tolkien was both the puzzle maker and the party.
It was a book, by one person.
He was the one to break the silence. "You know what always bothered me?" he asked. "Why they even bothered with the symbols."
"The what?"
"The symbols, you fool, look at the claw."
I turned it over in my hand. Sure enough, etched into the face were three animals. A bear, an owl, and some kind of insect.
"What do the symbols mean, Deerkaza?"
"The sealing-doors. It's not enough to just have the claw. They're made of massive stone wheels that must align with the claw's symbols before they'll open. It's a sort of lock, I suppose. But I didn't know why they bothered with them. If you had the claw, you also had the symbols to open the door. So why..."
He was broken up by a coughing fit. It was the most I had heard him speak in months, but I could tell how much of a struggle it was. I knew his mind, though, and helped the thought along.
"Why even have a combination if you're going to write it on the key?"
"Exactly. But as I lay bleeding on that floor, I figured it out. The Draugr are relentless, but far from clever. Once I was downed, they continued shuffling about. To no aim. No direction. Bumping against one another, the walls."
"So?"
"So the symbols on the doors weren't meant to be another lock. Just a way of ensuring the person entering was actually alive and had a functioning mind."
"Then the doors..."
"Were never meant to keep people out. They were meant to keep the Draugr in."
Shame, you probably put more thought into that shit then Bethesda ever did
Actually, it's from an ingame book https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Death_of_a_Wanderer
Puzzle door seems to usually be halfway through the tomb and only really guard big bad draugr, lich or a dragon priest. Draugr on the outside would be able to open the door if it didn't require fantasy captcha.
Oh huh wow I’ll be damned
Then just make a door that doesn't open from the inside. Like these doors, for example. You get a 7/10 for effort but the suggested conclusion to the premise is nonsensical.
If they knew their corpses were going to turn into undead why wouldn't they just burn them or something?
Because Bethesda is moronic
Unless you provided them with a diagram, made by you, of the puzzle existing in the game, as you see it in your head, the only person to blame is you for being such a fricking rookie GM. I mean this is literally 101 of shit to never do: describing people a puzzle that requires orientation in space. What next? Giving them platforms to jump over?
The fact you bring Skyrim, but ended up creating a puzzle that requires at the very fricking least paper diagram made by GM to solve just makes you reek like a homosexual that thinks tabletops are vidya without the screen.
How does anything he described require orientation in space?
It's a shit puzzle but his players are completely moronic
No diagram is needed if you paid attention to what the GM was saying. it's not a visual puzzle, it's a basic "are you fricking paying attention to the words coming out of my mouth" puzzle.
>animals on clan crests
>animals carved on the walls
>BUT MUH DIAGRAM
The lack of intelligence in the modern TTRPG crowd is astounding. morons literally need you to draw them a picture.
>"I tap the dragon carving, then the wolf carving, etc. etc."
Anyone complaining about spatial sense is some homosexual who's nogames and just watches youtubers theorize in lieu of actual human interaction
>Nooo! My puzzle was good!
Except your entire party failed to solve it, which should ring you a bell.
But then again, you wouldn't be samegayging yourself to feel less like a moron.
The party doesn't have to succeed at solving every trouble or disarming every trap. They can fricking die.
>GM mumbles something about a room
>has some long winded description of the environment
>in that rambling description he lists 5 animals
>by the time he's done forget what animals are there
>it's all the players fault the GM couldn't be assed to print out a drawing with 5 animal carvings on it
He didn't even have to print it, he could fricking doodle it like a normal human.
Instead, here we are, with OP still mad over the fact both his players and now anons called him out on his homosexualry
>forget what animals are there
HOOO FRICK, WE’RE STUMPED. O GODS, YE ONES ABOVE US, INTERCEDE IN OUR PLIGHT! IF ONLY, WE COULD DO SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF, PERHAPS, FRICKING LOOKING AT THE WALL AGAIN
But yeah Op should have had a visual aid. Instead he just had nonvisual AIDS.
>Trust me guys, it's because in my imagined scenario he's a pathetic loser who talks quiet and rambles with no aim
Then it's still the players fault for letting someone like that GM.
It's not imagined, I was there.
Zoomers are on their phone while the DM rambles on about his deathtrap room
Black person, I literally run for children in the library. Any time I let them "take the helm", it becomes a lesson on conveying information, because they have the exact same issues as you do.
Except they are age 11-14. They are allowed to have those issues.
And you don't.
Unless, of course, you want to share with us the fact you're also an underage.
Sounds pretty wholesome, anon. are they good role-players?
This
I understood the puzzle and op didn't even describe the dungeon
You understand the puzzle from OP describing the puzzle and answer in written form on Ganker? Wow, good job.
I understood it as he said "...that ruled this land" which is a quote he gave them.
You're fine OP, make Puzzles like this non-essential. Nice reward behind it probably, idgaf roll random loot.
Players tend to enjoy it more if there are statues, murals or frescos nearby that hints at the answer.
Remove the need to remember your lore dumps or read your mind.
If you didn't think to check the animal statues you don't need to get the secret.
to the former rulers of the kingdom, using the animals on each one's clan crest
are also on carvings on wall, albeit not in order
are fricking stumped
I mean they should be? Was it in any way established to them about said rulers? Did it play any sort of importance in the scenario? If not, they are at a mercy of a Knowledge/Lore/whatever-its-called-in-your-game roll
>I give them history checks, they ignore me
Again, do they have ANY reason to go for that check, or you just said to them "do the bardic knowledge, Finn"?
say shit like "The Redsoul Dynasty, first empire, was ruled by Tarkan the Dragon, then Sabi the Wolf, of the Hoarfrost Clans, took over..."
... have you told them there is a dragon, wolf and three other animals from those crests?
I mean even from your description it is clear as day that you fricked up big time.
>lose temper, ask them if they want me to set up some stupid skyrim match-pillars puzzle instead
You kinda did anyway. Except forgot to tell them all the important bits
>they get mad back
Rightfully so.
players are moronic, especially players that post on /tg/, just look at the posters in this thread
I keep an eye on /tg/ because I want to be aware of the warning signs of toxicity. When I see applicants vomiting some meme or talking point, I want to be able to recognize it. Otherwise, there's a risk that some kind of toxic vermin sneaks in to the group and it will all fall apart. Learned the hard way many years ago when I used to allow /tg/ applicants. Of course, if you just ask them if they ever come here, they always lie. Wonder why...
>"The Redsoul Dynasty, first empire, was ruled by Tarkan the Dragon, then Sabi the Wolf, of the Hoarfrost Clans, took over..."
Your game sounds like weebshit, I'm glad it crashed and burned.
When I played in a group, I was a meticulous note taker. I believe something like this would have been easy for me, especially with the little reminders from history checks.
But who the frick takes notes in a game? I did it because I cared about things like internal consistency of lore and powers, and through-lines between minor/major plot points; normalgays aren't going to give a shit about any of this.
In fact, none of my notes ever mattered, which was one of the things that really frustrated me about the group I was in.
>Is aware that his notes are pointless
>Takes them anyway
... but why?!
I had no idea they were going to be pointless when I started taking them.
By the time I learned they were pointless, I had filled half a composition notebook.
This frustrated me, among other things about the group I was in.
These things are all written past tense. I no longer do these things.
Sorry if that wasn't clear before.
This is why I never take notes, most campaigns will never need them, either because the gm isn’t going to pull shit out from far enough back that notes are needed, or whatever I do note down will probably be irrelevant anyway and it’s just fluff only I’ll ever see
>I had no idea they were going to be pointless when I started taking them.
>By the time I learned they were pointless, I had filled half a composition notebook.
Mate, it takes a single session to know what's up at the start of the 2nd and if notes are needed or not. And if you played a neatly tied scenario that fit into a single session, then most definitely notes won't be useful or needed
I'm in this hobby since '02. The only time I was taking notes, was whenever we had a multi-session scenario of Call of Cthulhu circa '07. Not because they were overly complex, but because they had unpredictable pattern - I could have a session twice a week, and then no game for three months, only to rebound into 1-3 sessions per week, and then have a hiatus once more. Keeper had his notes, but it was pre-requested to have yours to remember what was even going up and not miss anything vital.
Because it’s fun for him, he likes documenting things. It’s a bit autistic but it’s not a bad trait, quite a useful one in fact, I’d be glad to have someone around taking detailed notes so I don’t have to.
Are you running a system that's made for morons? That may be why you have morons at your table.
No worries for OP as its likely just normies, after all any 4e and PF2e DM wouldnt even know what a puzzle is in the first place to ask.
Who the frick looks at page 9 for things, are you a bot?
if you're in a dungeon and come across a locked treasure chest the rogue can just roll his lockpicking skill and open it. if you're in a dungeon and there's a giant boulder blocking a passage the barbarian can just roll strength to push it out of the way. how come then if you are in a dungeon and there's some kind of gay brain teaser puzzle you can't just roll intelligence or wisdom to solve it?
Based and simplepilled.
OP's players are moronic, people ITT b***hing about spatial sense are homosexuals, but puzzles are also gay vidya shit for reasons of
PCs aren't the players so if one is some super genius wizard don't further expose the fact he's actually controlled by some low iq zoomer mcjobber.
You can, sure, but maybe you'd like to see if your players can figure out by themselves first. And if they solve it without falling back on skill checks then you give them a reward.
>but maybe you'd like to see if your players can figure out by themselves first
... for what purpose?
If people are playing a game with skillchecks, and you tell them shit in tune of "no no, play through this", you are moronic. Next time pick a game that doesn't have skillchecks and thus doesn't build different expectations than the actual game you plan to post.
>b-but it's fun
To you. Probably.
>Puzzles can be a fun way to break up the monotony of "Roll for X.....you have solved/failed the thing" by making players feel more like they're actually in the world.
Ask me how I know you are a greenhorn GM that read/heard too many "top 10 things your game MUST have" lists.
Puzzles can work. When the people at the table are given tools to solve them. Throwing at them a random trivia quiz and expecting answers to be given right off the bat is a great way to end up with everyone frustrated, while the game grinds to a halt.
I'm still waiting for any of you clowns to refute this
why do you think that players want to play your professor layton shit instead of using their characters skills like they do for every other obstacle in the game?
You were answered twice are you illiterate?
nether of the replies were refutations
Ok so you don’t want people to agree with you?
Ok we’ll see you in 3 hours for your answer bizarre scizo man
The point of adventuring is finding the best way to deal with unexpected obstacles.
>You just roll to remove the obstacle
That's the expected way to handle stuff, nowhere it says it should be the best one. Proper thinking and strategizing might lower or even remove the check.
You might find the key hidden arround rather than pick it, they might convince the king of help using information and notes taken because they know the king's interests rather than roll persuassion, and you might not need yo remove the rock out of the way because we have a reduction spell scroll left we got for free and sounds better than risking the barbarian get crushed under the rock.
You always have the option to roll, but that's also usually the riskiest way to do anything. Work smart, not hard.
The Three Clue Rule should apply here
Puzzles are tricky OP. It's good practice to leave them as side content OR use the 3 clue rule such as brought up. Giving at least three different types of clues and hints to solve the puzzle in case players don't gel with the one specific way you had in mind.
Either way, I hope both you and your players learn from this. You can only change your own behavior and I hope this conflict becomes a learning moment so you can all have better games in the future.
op...don't listen to the anti puzzle gayots. They're lazy frickers not worth listening to. Puzzles ciphers and similar are a tradition in epic fantasy and used to be fricking common and players used to fricking think...case in point, white plume mountain, ghost tower of invernes, lost caverns, etc.Your players are lazy dumbfricks, deny them progress past the puzzle unless they make an effort. Tell them next session to sit down and explain the puzzle and make them write down the facts then check what they wrote. See what gaps are there and fix em. Give them a drawn out map if needed. If they still can't figure it out...tell them the puzzle changes, then walk them through the solution and explain it and ask them why they didn't get the solution. Set expectation and hold them to it. Genuinely talk to them and ask what the issues are
This sounds like the worst fricking idea I have ever heard. I would just quit and tell the GM to go and frick himself if this shit happened to me.
Frick puzzles and frick DMs that put puzzles in games!
> I would just quit
Lazy fricking morons quit like little b***hes. wahhh thinking is tough! Seriously, the game is supposed to be problem solving based to engage your mind, not just rolling dice and collecting loot.
Keep it up!
This is gay as frick. If I wanted to solve puzzles I would do a crossword. Puzzles in a RPG are difficult to do well and the vast majority of DMs can't handle them well at all.
RPGs are for killing and looting and nothing else, moron.
Sane people don't want a whiny c**t as their GM.
>I would just quit and tell the GM to go and frick himself if this shit happened to me.
Don't trip on your own shoelaces and for on the patio, I don't want to explain your moronation to the cops
>for
Die*, what the frick Google phone
Ha. moron.
>OP tells how the game fell apart and everyone had horrible time, OP included
>DOUBLE DOWN ON IT!
catpcha: NYG8R
Frick off. Op offered a simple fricking puzzle, gave the players the tools to solve it too, and they were too much fricking lazy pieces of shit to take notes and solve a simple puzzle. Frick I've played call of cthulhu adventures with puzzles an order of magnitude more complex and they were easy. Just catering to a bunch of bone stupid low expectation keeps the game in the toilet tier quality...strive for better, don't be a stupid pos.
The puzzle being simple =/= OP being capable of setting it. Up and he made it clear that he fricked up the whole setup.
But it's not like you care, you're here to scream and shout
>"Tap on the 5 beasts who ruled this land, from start to finish"
to the former rulers of the kingdom, using the animals on each one's clan crest
are also on carvings on wall, albeit not in order
are fricking stumped
>>I give them history checks, they ignore me
say shit like "The Redsoul Dynasty, first empire, was ruled by Tarkan the Dragon, then Sabi the Wolf, of the Hoarfrost Clans, took over..."
>>they still don't fricking get it
op set it up in a few fricking sentences clearly...or are you one of his stupid players?
>OP was clear
>Copy-paste evidence of the contrary
Look, I get it, you want all the fricking attention you can milk, but it's 8:37 and I still didn't finish making breakfast for the rest of the group, so find someone else for this
How was that not clear ?
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
You are still not "fitting in", newbie
>you...newbie
me: heres me https://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/2009/5420978/ >ifuritasfan< I've been on /tg since..what?...fricking 2007 or 2006?, so gdif newbie. I've been here way way longer than (you) back when /tg/ got shit done
>Be on /tg/ for 14 years
>Still acting like a 14 yo
Nothing worse than meeting a literal manchild
Nta, but "there are glyphs on the wall" is vague enough. Are they some huge carvings, 2x2? Are they some tiny bas-relief? The sole fact that this puzzle requires to push them must it also make clear that they are fricking reachable in the first place.
So yeah, orienting this shit is space is vital.
That's not you in the link, nice try though.
No on who has been here that long should be proud of being here that long
t. here since 08
Jesus Christ you are real what psychosis compelled you to do this?
Why should they solve a puzzle?
tabletop rpg puzzle design is not like videogame or movie puzzle design. You have to either: Guide the players or allow whayever the players decide on to be the answer. I had a "puzzle" where there was a sword noclipping into an illusionary wall. My players never figured out that they could probably walk through the fake wall. After the players have been fricking around for a while, I now just tell them to roll and give the answer to whoever rolled well enough.
Nobody likes realizing that they are moronic. So, showing your players how stupid they are will never end well.
>I now just tell them to roll and give the answer to whoever rolled well enough.
I'd never in a million years do that. If you never push your players to get better they'll remain morons. Way to dumb shit down and treat them like tards... Try realizing they can do better and treat them to actual challenges. Decent dms push the players
What if the character's intelligence stat is much igher than the players? Do you only assign characters to players that match? "Sorry Bob, you havnt got a degree, so no you can't ever play a high Int Wizard. Here's your Barbarian Half-Orc, again."
>What if the character's intelligence stat is much igher than the players?
A high int score isn't indicative of that person beig able to come up with an answer. Mozart was a fricking genius, but he didn't create calculus. So int doesnt automatically ensure success. So stop being a tard.
No one cares it’s already like that with skills being based on different stats
>If you are passive-aggressive, your players will eventually quit and you don't have to run anymore
ftfy
>>If you are passive-aggressive, your players will eventually quit and you don't have to run anymore
>More of (you) Don't even try to find out what's wrong with your players no just give them moron level shit endlessly, never try to make them think or rise to an intellectual challenge. All players are as brain dead as me. Don't challenge my Black person tier standards
Stfu and go suck start a shotgun. Just because youre a deficient gimp doesn't mean everyone else is as dumb as you are
What do you mean, better? You're playing make believe. Why are you so mad that no one cares about your boring puzzles?
Did they HAVE to do the puzzle? How would you have reacted if a wizard cast an 'open' spell, or a dwarf started tunnelling through a nearby wall, or a barbarian just smashed the door?
If you're not ready to accept the choices of your players (and other outcomes beyond what you think should happen) you aren't fit for the role of DM.
But you could write a book about all the lore you so evidently crave approval for.
When you are the player, your IQ lowers to the room temperature level, and this is a well-known fact. This is why players are almost never able to solve any puzzle or detective mystery by themselves. Also, lacking the visual stimuli.
>When you are the player, your IQ lowers to the room temperature level, and this is a well-known fact. This is why players are almost never able to solve any puzzle or detective mystery by themselves.
Only in bullshit Ganker brainlet minds is this true. In the real world people are not this fricking dumb. There are tons of adventures filled with puzzles that players are entirely capable of solving. If youre too stunted to solve simple fricking puzzles maybe its time to fricking stop being a lazy brainlet.
Imagining the geometry of a room from verbal description is not a problem if your IQ is above 100
>Placing imaginary objects in imaginary space in the exact same way as the other person imagined them in his head is perfectly possible
This shit it tough to pull in PBP games, where the GM can give you a meticulous, written (so you can always re-read it) description of the place that runs for 2-3 paragraphs without anyone acting up. Even trying to say 2-3 paragraphs at the table is a minute-long monologue, and there is no return to it, because each next iteration will be different.
But hey, you've called everyone morons without ever playing or running a single session of TTRPG, so I guess job well done?
>This shit it tough to pull in PBP games
Reminds me of pic related. It's cute little faux retro cRPG, really good stuff that's lifted from creator's first time with WFRP... except that one puzzle that requires you to say the correct phase. And it only accepts a short set of words, everything else is wrong. So who cares if you know there is something hidden in the dolmen, if the correct phase isn't digging, searching or whatever, but "trap door" or a variant of it. While the game gives you zero indication there even is one. And its creator, just like OP, was quite mad that people "can't figure out" something as obvious, and why everyone keeps asking about that one "simple and obvious" puzzle, spending first month after premiere throwing tantrums at his own customers. And it's not like this is the only "type correct word" puzzle in the game, but for the reminder of them, there are both clues and/or the game teaches you elements of the setting, so you know the answers even without taking notes.
This is the equivalent of a secret vault being opened by a middle school history quiz. Who would build such a thing in the first place? Why are you quizzing your players on fake history when it'd be immediately obvious to any of their characters what this meant?
Imagine coming across a vault filled with gold and the door asks you who the first president of the US was. That's how dumb your door idea is.
Work on your reading comprehension.
Work on yours. The OP gave a quiz about the heraldry of the previous ruling dynasties. That's grade school knowledge for anyone living in that setting. It's like a quiz about national flags.
>The OP gave a quiz about the heraldry of the previous ruling dynasties. That's grade school knowledge for anyone living in that setting.
Fricking 100% grade AAA certified bullshit. Keep insisting this, but that's absolutely not even true of real life, let alone true of the average person in an average fantasy world. There's a million ways this could not be common knowledge, stop just insisting that it is when you don't actually know.
Name one.
See
The populous being generally uneducated/illiterate is the most obvious one. The information being intentionally buried is another. The information being lost after some kind of disaster is another.
>The populous being generally uneducated/illiterate is the most obvious one. The information being intentionally buried is another. The information being lost after some kind of disaster is another.
then the pcs should be too stuipd to get through the door, so the pcs shouldnt have the tools to enter it.
At this point I’m convinced at least 30% of anyone here is a bot
The party has skills/knowledges, let alone all the information laid out directly in front of them within the puzzle chamber itself. This was explained in the OP. Are you high or an ESL? Because your post is nonsensical.
>That's grade school knowledge for anyone living in that setting.
The setting doesn't have grade schools. What now?
you talk a lot of shit for someone who hasn't watched the American documentary National Treasure
It's not a fricking documentary you shit for brains. It's an autobiography written by Nick Cage himself.
I don't find it anymore out of place than the gazillion dungeons and maps that make no sense and are just rooms, traps and wandering monsters active 24/7 on a megastructure nobody know when it was made or how nor it makes sense when taking the enviroment into account.
Every good dungeon needs a reactive ecosystem.
A good GM sees something isn't working and adapts.
>My players are stupid!
No, autismo, your players are humans who have been sitting at a table for more than an hour and are not imagining what you want them to. At this point you change gears to get them involved again
Too logical, not what op wanted. You need to scream and shit your self for his epic YouTube compilation
Your puzzle is awful. It's impossible for a real world human, because it requires specific knowledge of your shitty fluff that only exists in your head and maybe your notes. It's trivial for an in-world character, because it's incredibly basic knowledge there.
Thus the whole "puzzle" is trying to get specific information out of you. Which probably just didn't occur to them, because that's fricking moronic. So when you start droning on about history they aren't listening, because they're busy trying to solve some fricking animal carving puzzle rather than trying to pick out specific words.
You are a bad communicator and you fricked up.
I don’t know what’s worse, OP clearly being another bot post or you thinking he cares
>It's trivial for an in-world character, because it's incredibly basic knowledge there.
Massive assumption and not even true of real life. The average person from your country can not name the first 5 presidents, or kings, or prime ministers in a row. At the same time, this is literally as simple as puzzles get and all the players need to do is listen to his description one time, write down the animals that are said in order, and then touch them in that order. And instead of doing this extremely obvious thing, the players ragequit like literally moronic children.
>Massive assumption
Pure fricking irony
give me the first 5 chief financial officers of Hasbro without looking it up
(ie using a history check via research)
oh wait you can't
Optimus Prime
Princess Celestia
Cobra Commander
Peppa Pigs dad
Rich Uncle Pennybags
>Talks about trivial knowledge
>When called on his assumptions, double down on being moronic
Do you always gauge people with your own mark?
Looks like everyone is to blame here. Your players are borderline moronic if the riddle is exactly as you say it is. You are borderline moronic for not seeing what's happening and not involving the players in some other way.
these kind of puzzles without sufficient visual aid are very unstable.
Some groups will instantly get it, some won't solve it any chance.
Some players don't have any motivation for puzzles too.
get over it, apologize for your emotional reaction, get on common grounds with them in what the game should look like.
And if their vision is not what you envision, find a pre communicated middleground, or switch group
>everyone is sperging about spatial puzzles
>OP's puzzle isn't spatial
Is everyone in this thread a moron? I like puzzles too, OP, but some people's brains literally shut down when it comes to them. Your puzzle was literal kindergarten-tier and your players froze, which is an indication you should stay away from puzzles in general. You shouldn't have lost your temper, but I understand your frustration. Just keep this experience in mind with this and other groups.
They were always moronic, they just didn't have the chance to show you until now
>suddenly
If you put the main plot behind a puzzle, players can always wait you out by refusing to try, because they know you'll have to tell them sooner or later or the game is over.
Instead, hide sweet loot or other bonuses inside or behind puzzles, maybe hint or tell them what's inside, but either way make it clear to them that this is optional stuff they will miss out on if they're lazy.
Are you guys being moronic on purpose? If I got this puzzle the first fricking thing I would ask is if my character sees any animal paintings or statues around
Your players are not stupid for not giving a shit about your made up history, OP. You are stupid for expecting them to in a million years.
The puzzle doesn't require you to give a shit about made up history. It literally just requires you to remember 5 animals in order. It is basically impossible for a puzzle to be any easier.
the puzzle is inane though. it's just op power tripping and wanting people to play simon says with him.
>It is basically impossible for a puzzle to be any easier.
Why have it then?
Now you're understanding Autism.
Puzzles can be a fun way to break up the monotony of "Roll for X.....you have solved/failed the thing" by making players feel more like they're actually in the world.
But if they're not getting it, for whatever reason (room temp iq/DM sucks) then ffs just move on after the first 2 or 3 failed attempts. Be fun about it.
>Alright Barb/Fighter roll for strength
>roll doesn't matter
>You leaned on a pillar that turned out to be loose and it fell over, knocking a hole in the ancient wall. You'll have to go through one at a time but it bypasses the puzzle.
Or I suppose start a 45 minute long argument and ruin the game.
I want you to have a nice day
Okay anon, lets talk about theory of mind here for a second: We accept first that the ideas we have in our heads are not necessarily shared by other people, and lacking information and experience can result in even truthful or clear things being elusive to others.
Trust me, I'm going somewhere with this.
Next, what is responsibility? Responsibility can be broken down literally into "the ability to respond", but more generally people use it to describe people using their agency to affect the world around them in a proactive or responsive manner; in short 'choose to do something".
Now what does any of this have to do with puzzles in a make-believe dice game? Everything actually. Players can appear exceptionally stupid to a GM because the information they receive from the GM may not be built back up in their heads the in a useful fashion. People may tune out information as background and fluff that may be important, doubly so if the information is purely narrative. That's not to say they aren't listening, but that sometimes the information is categorized as 'things that were fun to listen to' or 'descriptive terms for more concrete and relevant factors'. Other times, things you think aren't relevant, will take center stage in their mind and bias may take over.
Notice in your example you said "5 beasts who ruled the land"? For a lot of people that play DND, "Dragons" aren't beasts, beasts are a specific category of creature that Dragons are explicitly not a part of. Since they might thing to immediately exclude Dragons, the idea that it may be based on the aforementioned clans is already shot for them. Even if they did think of it, they've crossed it out as a non-solution, doubly so because they assume there will be consequences for a failed sequence.
I will go on. So now we're back to responsibility: What do players do when they think they're wrong or don't have a solution? They'll wait for others to propose a solution or come up with a plan. If everyone at the table assumes someone else at the table is smarter and have discounted their own plans, now we're in trouble, because the entire table has checked out at the same time and no amount of die rolling is going to solve the fact they're no longer engaged with the puzzle.
This is why dungeon "puzzle" design and mystery plots both have to be written differently in an RPG than you would in a book or a videogame. In a game or a book, progress is linear, you either read pages or advance along a programmed path. An RPG requires players to process the world for their character and make non-linear, open-ended decisions about their course of action. This is why things like a block puzzle, which are staples of videogames, are generally torture and hated on a table; because it's not dissimilar to forcing players to solve a rubics cube at the table: It is just a barrier to progress that takes them out of what they're actually playing for.
So how do we do this better?
So even for contrived puzzles or traps in an RPG, you want to build the scenario in a way that there is a problem that needs to be solved creatively, rather than something that requires an exact solution.Even for the same theme you can and should make puzzles that can be approached multiple ways. Lets say we're going to have a dungeon with multiple gates instead of a single door, with each gate being made to be opened in a reference to a historical ruler. Say for the Dragon, a king known for greed, you could have a number of statues of serfs and nobles; with stone coins in the hands of the serfs and a set of steep steps attached to the statues by chains and pulleys. The steps are free floating and will drop and prevent people from climbing, but are so precisely balanced that if you take the coins from the serfs and give them to the nobles, the stairs will support the weight of one person; each PC could then climb the stairs alone.
Of course, the PCs could just cheat. If they can jump high enough or climb the wall, or fly or jam the mechanism, they can just as well reach the ledge and move to the next doorway. That's okay; it's even good. A solution that players come up with may not be as poetic, but what it loses in planned meaning it gains in the player's engagement and pride. If you made each gate a thematic challenge (perhaps the wolf is a bridge that see-saws, necessitating crossing together 'as a pack') that still had room for out-of-the-box problem solving, players are much less likely to be stumped and in fact will find the dungeon more interesting for it, rather than frustrating and disappointing.
Nice walltext, but consider the following:
I've been lurking itt for the fun of it but this is actually good advice, I just don't think anyone here will take advantage of it
Your puzzle was fine, and your players are either uninteresting or dumb, but they have a right to be like that too.
Either you all agree on a solution together, or you as a DM accept the players you have and cater to them.
A better DM wouldn't be mad, he would adapt and take that as an opportunity to play the long game.
Simplify yhe puzzle on the spot, them next time provide a puzzle that is about the simplicity level they can take, then gradually increase until you find the sweet spot, which also would work as an opportunity for your players to learn.
Yo be clear, I'm not saying you are a bad DM or that you are at fault, just that there are ways to handle these situations.
Of course, this is coming from aomebody who never DMed a day in his life, I mostly take inspiration from my friends to write this, so take it all with a gran of salt, I guess.
>DM'ing a Dungeon set inside an abandoned magic academy
>In a long hallway leading up to the final encounter, there are multiple murals depicting the academy's history
>Players rush by them, only briefly inspecting one
>In the final room, they need to answer questions in order to open the door and escape
>Party quickly realizes they have no clue wtf to say or do in response to the questions
Now pay attention, here's the part where a DM does something other than whine about "muh players:"
>I tell the players they'll have to guess answers, and answers given "in the right spirit" will still be accepted.
>Players all come up with wildly generic "answers" to the questions, either inventing entire histories or just going full rules-lawyer in trying to craft the most generic responses
>I let them roll ability checks depending on what they say to give their lies extra oomf
>I roleplay the ghost-proctor's mounting confusion, frustration and eventual resignation as the party slowly brute forces their way through the questions and he starts hand-waiving increasingly questionable answers.
>The party still gets punished for ignoring cues: they took a lot longer to answer the questions and had to fend off monsters in the meantime
>Everyone finds the situation hilarious & has a good time
Most memorable dungeon puzzle I ever ran.
Why does your game have a "final encounter"?
Because in every discrete location, there's (usually) only a limited number of things to do, enemies to fight, rooms to explore. Naturally, one of them will be the last, or final thing you can encounter.
trivia questions are shit puzzles.
good puzzles (and good traps too) are complex situations with stakes and danger. a thin bridge over a rushing torrent with a strong wind blowing over it, a powerful turret that blasts everything that moves into a certain area, a giant hammer ready to swing down on everyone who tries to open a door, treasure hanging over a wat of acid etc. give your players something to interact with and make plans, instead of trying to divine the correct answer to your quiz
Just roll a die behind your DM screen and say the wizard figured it out and move on, then never bother with any puzzles that aren't just pick a lever, throw it.
Players are just fricking stupid. One time I had them fight an entity that could possess dozens of near helpless mooks surrounding them, one at a time, with the possessed one being very strong and hard to hit. They decided to completely ignore the mooks and nearly got wiped out defeating the strong enemy 4 times in a row before finally figuring out they should incapacitate it and wipe out the extra bodies, and only after a strong hint. Another time I had them be at the location of 2 different rival groups that were going to fight each other, each of which requested help from the party. The players decided to fight both at once, resulting in one of them getting killed and another mamed.
>players are morons unless you wave your dick in their face
This is even more the truth thanks to Shitical Hole and just general normalhomosexualry infesting the hobby.
Good luck with your horny bards, anon.
History checks only work far into the campaign.
You want to make a puzzle that has your players go "Hey that's from the dungeon we visited" or "That's the crest of the current king" instead of reading comprehensive tests from your world's backstory
Another moron makes wild assumptions instead of simply reading the OP. Just goes to show that the average person doesn't think about a situation at all before acting.
Honestly are you just here to make sarcastic replies to every post or something?
How is that sarcastic?
Question is whether OP gave them the historical crest info before this puzzle. If not, he still tried to give them history checks mid-puzzle, which they ignored.
If so, they're morons for not referring to their notes. Arguments in this thread presuppose one of the two positions.
Players are generally going to argue the moronic version of this situation.
The correct answer to every moron in this thread is simple -
Listen when your fricking GM speaks and gives you a description -
If you don't your PC deserves that fricking rapey death they suffered.
homosexuals.
Nah
>I have no legit answer
Good for you
Captcha: T00PMS
>don't pay attention to your GM
how to be and stay nogames. Great advice
Wow even here the rule of three is true, lmao oh /misc/…
>no response
They always get so shy then you point it out lmao
>I'm a moron not worth answering
>heh gottem
Le nogaems
So what happened to Russia today?
It's worth stating that players genuinely can't see what you're describing. Let me explain:
I ran a dungeon where there was a statue of a hundred-handed god. His primary hand was held out.
The clue was:
>"Make the symbol of friendship"
They tried everything, some actually really imaginative, but what they never tried was SHAKING HIS HAND.
That was all they had to do, SHAKE THE STATUE'S HAND.
Did you ever make it clear that shaking a persons hand was a common thing? Because it wasn’t at all common until up to a hundred or so years ago, a lot more bowing and shit before hand, they were probably trying to not just assume shit
Actually, a good example of differing perceptions.
>his primary hand was held out
My mental image was it being held out palm upwards, maybe even slightly grasping, as in "put object here".
With the solution, I can see that it was meant to be in hand-shaking position, but the key words in this sentence are clear.
Things like this is why older dungeon books would often have pictures of the puzzle rooms so that the players can see the same thing the DM is seeing and describing.
What the players hear after filtering out what is perceived as fluff text as it is in 80% of situations
>"Tap on the 5 beasts who ruled this land, from start to finish"
>animals are also on carvings on wall
Most players will take what your laying out and ignore most of it. Hell most players cannot be asked to pay attention to more than the bare minimum outside of the handful of things that catches their interest.
Depending on ones stance this is either the fault of the GM for requiring the players to care about shit they don't want to care about or its on the players for refusing to engage with the game outside of their immediate gratification.
I personally lean more towards the stance that the players are at fault but also cannot blame them as 80% of GMs never make all the "fluff" relevant and so train them to not care either.
If all players were in their introduction to the game given moments where they have to engage with the world and environment or else die. It would filer many but would properly train those who stick around and make interactions even with a bad GM better overall.
People on here love to pass around that screencap about how low IQ criminals can't form a theory of mind for other people and therefore can't empathize but they can't recognize it happening in themselves when a whole group of people fails to get their "obvious" puzzle
Considering the people who post this are usually cross posting from /misc/ empathy is usually asking too much
Why did you put a puzzle in your game in the first place?
Riddles.
Don't make puzzles, just don't. create obstacles instead.
>A pool of acid blocks the way
>the door is locked, but can be broken
>the dungeon is burning!!
don't think of a solution, just roll with whatever they come up with, and if it makes sense, let them do it.
You probably didn't describe the puzzle correctly. I'm also a descriptionlet, that's why I'm always using maps or draw a rough sketch of whatever puzzle or oddity I'm trying to describe.
Players always laugh when I pull up the whiteboard and the color markers and start explaining to them like they are children.
The answers to a puzzle is always easy and obvious when you already know the answer to it.
They're upset and blaming you in order to shift blame because they know they weren't paying attention. When they got caught out for it, they are embarrassed because it's incredibly fricking disrespectful that they'd just shit all over you like that. Which they're fine with doing. They're just not fine with there being any kind of consequences for it.
As usual, the problem is the players being disrespectful and dysfunctional. Find a better group. There's literally hundreds of players begging for a GM. Put an ad up somewhere and stand back to avoid the stampede.
Most of the information that humans process comes from vision. A puzzle in a 3D environment entirely described with words (i.e isnt a riddle) is subject to interpretation and is laughably easy to misconstrue and details are guaranteed to slip the mind. You failed to account for that because you had a clear idea of the puzzle in your head and then failed to understand that this isnt what the player would see. Then you sperged out like some kind of autistic chimp to boot.
>some Scizo continues to bump this thread from page 9-10
What is wrong with you?
How about no puzzles? These are so fricking boring anyways, always the same, because there is not much you can do when things cannot be visualized.
It mostly depends on how the puzzle is presented and described
Humans are very dependent on visuals and scale. A description no matter how good it is will never be exact and some people imagine slighly different things than others
What you describe might not be what your players are "seeing", so you get upset when they don't see something you think is obvious, and they get upset when you repeat the same description that they think is already obvious but aren't seeing it
>I am angry when things just go south
Yeah, I feel you.
D&D isn't about solving problems, it's about styling on mobs and feeling special...