Will it ever be dethroned? Can it be?
98% of all mods made since the first release of GZDoom were either made specifically with GZDoom in mind or will easily work flawlessly with GZDoom despite being developed for something else.
It's also the only source port that has been used as a springboard to make actual commercial games.
GZDoom is more doom than doom at this point. I bet most people here haven't even played DOOM in any way OTHER than GZDOOM.
>shits itself if the level isn't Wolfenstein 3D tier corridors
what year are you from, exactly..? That hasn't been an issue for nearly a decade.
From 2024. I make maps for GZDoom (unfortunately). Also
>gtx 660 will become the minimum to play VANILLA DOOM 2 after opengl will be deleted
Lol
Lmao
>opengl will be deleted
wut?
Starting from 5.0, GZDoom will run only on Vulkan and OPENGL will be dropped.
Just so you understand, because of thisz you'll need
>A GTX 660 or higher graphics card (most older stuff is not compatible with Vulkan)
>An i5 processor
>4GB of RAM minimum
To run Vanilla Doom 2. Not blade of agony, not total chaos, vanilla Doom 2.
Are you feeling that progress yet?
neat
sounds moronic and gay
not like theres a shortage of alternative sourceports tho. and ill still be able to just run shit on an older version so whatever i guess
but im confused why exactly theyd think this is a good idea to begin with. i cant imagine it would be much added difficulty to get opengl to work, seeing how it already does
is it just a classic case of out-of-touch nerds?
>omggg lik who rly uses opengl these days?
oh ya know, just basically half of everyone still playing doom in current year
or is there some actual technical reason why?
Isn't driver support for Vulkan extensions permanently fricked because vendors can't agree on what features/extensions should or shouldn't be accepted? Why would anyone in their right mind switch to Vulkan when its future is doomed to instability and incompatibility? GPU vendors basically want nothing to do with it and would rather stick to OpenGL and Direct3D 12. D3D12 is just as bad as Vulkan but it's better supported by vendors because they looove that Microsoft wiener yum yum!
Vulkan 1.3 is bretty gud.
Extensions were always optional even in opengl. There is no problem is you stick to core features, moron.
Nobody sticks to core features. Looks like we're all morons after all.
lik who rly uses opengl these days?
i expected better response from doom RETRO fans. you know a shitload of people running doom sources on retro hardware for that very reason ITS A FRICKING RETRO GAME
no idea what these frickers are smoking
but purists will just run on software mode anyway... but that might be more difficult on really old machines
I am not defending the policy of GZDoom or the bullshit that passes for progress nowadays but your laptop from 2007 is not retro hardware, it is just a shitty old laptop. If you are planning to use retro hardware for Doom, might as well play vanilla or chocolate, because if not, what's the point. If your PC isn't that powerful, switch to crispy or prboom.
but it is retro. native support for x86_32 that can run windows xp for so many 2000s pc games and perfect compatibility. just stick gt9800 into there and you all set
>is it just a classic case of out-of-touch nerds?
lik who rly uses opengl these days?
>oh ya know, just basically half of everyone still playing doom in current year
It's this. dpJudas seriously considers making ZDRay (baked lighting creation utility for gzdoom) RTX-only for example, he already did I think cause I can't run the latest official ZDRay on my GTX 1080.
For the record, these lightmaps are buggy as shit and don't even have basic light bouncing. ZDray is literally Quake 1 tier lightmapping.
Half of Doom's playerbase? Is this something you know for a fact, or just conjecture?
On the forums Graf has mentioned that there are a number of render optimizations they could do, but that doing so across multiple graphics backends, some of which are ancient spaghetti code, would be time prohibitive. I assume then that they went with Vulkan because it's the least baggaged and most forward facing.
running doom on any form of hardware accel was sin to begin with among any competent modder
I can't even run GZDoom. I'm still using LZD.
same. I just like the old rendering.
Probably not, there's too much content for it, and making something with comparable abilities would be shitloads of work which nobody wants to undertake. Remember that the ZDoom family of ports have been in development since the 1990s.
They've already implemented OpenGLES as a compatibility option, I fail to see the problem with getting rid of an increasingly dated backend which isn't really relevant for modern day computers.
When you're running a poorgay machine, you can settle for the poorgay options, yes. When GLQuake became a thing, you could either upgrade your computer and get a VooDoo graphics card, or you could stay with software rendering on your 486, with its silky smooth 15 to 20 frames per second.
>just ignore the fact that the renderer is completely busted in gzdoom, rendering all the sectors from scratch each frame
>just ignore the fact that the culling in gzdoom is busted as well, where if even a single pixel of a sector is visible, the entire sector gets render alongside 3 other sectors adjacent to it as well for some reason
>just ignore the fact that gzdoom's asset streaming is absolute garbage, to the point that the engine stutters when playing 5 second sound effects
>just ignore the fact that gzdoom requires an i5 processor while all the collision in the engine is still a bounding box that can't even be made rectangular, in 2024
>>just ignore the fact that gzdoom's asset streaming is absolute garbage, to the point that the engine stutters when playing 5 second sound effects
Never happens to me, and the game runs fine.
>Never happens to me
Ah, so you're low IQ. Got that. There's no point in trying to explain any of this to you then.
Get a better computer I guess?
>1 linedef per drawcall should be enough for anyone
Go back to pisscord Graf
too bad he ragequitted even the zdoom discord
>>just ignore the fact that the renderer is completely busted in gzdoom, rendering all the sectors from scratch each frame
To be fair, many (most?) source ports also render this way, because it's basically the naive evolution from software rendering, but even in that category GZDoom is still among the slowest. Most people don't understand just how (relatively) slow CPU-GPU communication is. And most Doom levels aren't that complex, so the issue kinda had the chance to sneak in. Now that everyone is making magnum opuses and people are used to 100fps+ the issue really sticks out.
>an increasingly dated backend which isn't really relevant for modern day computers.
stop repeating this bullshit marketing. vulkan is not a replacement for opengl. opengl is not outdated. vulkan is for large teams at aaa studios to squeeze 2% more performance out of their [tired setting] jogging simulator. opengl is for smaller teams and individuals. gzdoom is made by a small team and i can guarantee the vulkan backend will perform worse overall. most projects that switched to vulkan got worse performance and switched back to opengl for their mainline release. it's not a replacement, it's not "the future" or any other bullshit. it's just convoluted trash made to satisfy corporate donors, dynamic linking, wake over ethernet, and secure boot.
*like dynamic linking, wake over ethernet, and secure boot.
>most projects that switched to vulkan got worse performance and switched back to opengl for their mainline release.
Such as?
Sure, anon. The API that started 30 years ago and hasn't been updated in 6 is not outdated or in any way superseded. It cannot possibly be burdened by decades of bullshit legacy code or dated decisions that made sense at the time due to hardware constraints compared to the one that started in 2018 and got an update less than three weeks ago. It's not that Vulkan is any better, it's just that big corporations just love wasting metric tons of money working on something that is in no way supported better by the modern hardware produced. They're just bored. I think anon here is onto something. Could be big facts. Could also be schizo/vr/enia. I'd tell you to self-diagnose but I'm sure you've already spoken to the 3dfx Voodoo2 in your retro (and only) PC on that matter.
if your indie game requires hardware accel to run, it's a shit game
minecraft and stardew valley didnt need gpus to be good games
No one is forcing you to upgrade, you fricking sperg.
try to run metadoom's recent version you motherfricking homosexual.
is metadoom actually epic like they say?
for one (1) guy maybe.
God I hope they fix shader hitching in Vulkan by then, heh.
One word.
Inhales.
>Klaus Schwab is going to delete OGL from the internet in 2024. It is part of his WEF 2024 agenda.
They're replacing the OpenGL renderer with the OpenGL ES renderer which works significantly better then the prior OpenGL renderer on low end hardware anon....
whats the ES stand for?
extra suck?
Embedded systems.
>no support for lightmaps
>iqm support is fricked
>nobody actually bothers to fix this
>probably a myriad of other rendering bugs as well
Nice alternative you have there, Graf.
Only plebs play the vanilla iwads on anything other than chocolate doom.
>Romero says to use Gzdoom to play both Sigil wads
>Boots it up in prboom+ with absolutely zero issues
i fricking hate using gzdoom, only using it as an absolute necessity if i absolutely have to. dev behind it is a huge gay too. sourceports like Crispy, Chocolate, Zandronum, PrBoom+, and Nugget are way better for Vanilla Doom & iwads.
>deleting opengl
lol. lmao even. what a fricking gay
>born in 1991
>prefers doom with jumping & reloading
you ain't made for these streets. Go back to playing microslop games
OpenGL is more bother than it's worth from a dev perspective, consider getting a computer which doesn't date from 2011.
Newsflash moron, I don't use opengl nor do i use gzdoom. The fact of the matter is if a sourceport causes a fricking 1993 game to run like dogshit on any reasonable PC then it's not a good source port. The whole point of Doom is that you can run it on any PC within the past like 20 years with no issue
It's like you're willingly obtuse, this has been explained to your fetal alcoholic ass over and over.
GzDoom is Doom at its core, but it's also a LOT more than just 1993's Doom, it is more than two decades of development to facilitate extensive modding, which ultimately means system specs grow, and as people cease using old machines then support for those is ditched in favor the machines which people are actually using.
There's certainly things which could be better about GzDoom (I curse the Chickenman every week), but since it's still Doom deep down under there, you're bound to Doom's single threading for the game logic, which means performance bottlenecks in some aspects.
If you want "good performance on a reasonable computer" then you already have Chocolate Doom, Crispy Doom, Woof, DSDA, and Nugget, all very good ports which run the core game (mostly) smoothly. With MBF21 and UMAPINFO we have more advanced and flexible modding without going into full GzDoom territory, and even better is on the horizon.
Gzdoom's problem is not it being single core, at least not the biggest performance problem. It's the shitty renderer.
LZDoom runs considerably better than GZDoom does, and it offers all of the functionality that GZDoom does (or rather did in 2022, before drfrag discontinued it).
You wanna know how it did that? It simply reverted the change from OpenGL 3.0 to OpenGL 2.1, and also added culling to geometry based on distance.
That alone is enough to make GZDoom a far more lightweight engine. What I would like you to explain is why does GZDoom need OpenGL 3.0
Romero says a lot of shit, do not take everything he says seriously.
Romero also couldn't work out the GZDoom options menu when he bandwagoned playing Myhouse.pk3 and played it with texture filtering on.
Ah yes, Daikatana. Romero's Magnum Opus and a true exhibition of his programming abilities when Carmack is not around to save his dumb ass.
I SAY DAIKATANA, YOU SAY SORRY.
DAIKATANA
romero is a fricking homosexual. he lied about sigil. he said it's compatible with vanilla, but then he fricked up visplane limit, so only to play sigil was via doom... sigil 2 is not even booting on dos. frick that scam artist
via boom*
The vast majority of vanilla works made in the past 25 years do not adhere to the original static limits, so why the frick would Sigil? Even 1997 era computers could easily handle much more than Doom's original parameters, which is why virtually all sourceports of all kinds allow you to go well past those old limits.
Sticking within the visplanes limit is fricking annoying and tedious, there's lots of little shit which isn't obvious, which is why vanilla mappers almost never bother, even if they aren't going into Deus Vult 2 or Gothic 99 territory. Romero isn't different here, he made a 'limit removing' map, like most people mapping vanilla usually do.
Isn't the G in GZDoom derived from OpenGL?
It's Graf Zahl Doom
And ZDoom?
Zahl Doom
Z Doom. "Z" being the last letter of the alphabet.
Zalty Chicken Doom
gzdoom is unable to do 120+ fps in sprawling levels like those seen in extremely popular wads like ancient aliens and eviternity 1/2, even on a modern PC using vulkan and with all graphical enhancements disabled
> GZDoom is more doom than doom at this point
GZDoom is a gross perversion of doom.
>GZDoom is more doom than doom at this point.
gay opinion
GZDOOM is GZDOOM
a sourceport that allows for extra shit for modders
it also has a lot of fluff that you have turn off if you want to play a classic version of doom. and the menu is kind of a clusterfrick. thankfully they realized this, and added the search filter. still kind of a headache
if you want more classic doom, theres many other sourceports. and even DOS emus too, if you really want that old 90s shitbox feel. even then, id recommend chocolate
>It's also the only source port that has been used as a springboard to make actual commercial games.
That are all slop. I mean come on...Selaco? lol.
Selaco devs are the only ones that brothered to fix the fricking mess that GZDoom is.
Frick, they even hinted the possibility of a Switch port (GZDoom runs like fricking trash on ARM and you have Delta Touch as proof)
that's interesting if true. they have to release their source code, don't they?
Yes, if they don't they can be thrown in prison
They got the menus to run on more than a single core, which is an achievement but it's not the immense achievement it's been reported as.
This is wrong. They are doing texture and model streaming through multiple cores. I helped them test this on Steam Deck last year
As a Doom port? It never beaten PrBoom (and its deriviatives).
As an easy PC-only indie games engine? Sure, it is bound to happen at some point. Even if it will be a fork of GZDoom that removes ability to play Doom itself for optimization sake.
Just a reminder:
on one hand, yeah that's shit and unoptimized as frick, on the other hand, what else do you use to make something with ambitions like Golden Souls 3 (or even 2)? I doubt you can do all that stuff with something like MBF21
gz(oomer)doom never had a throne
that would either be original boom(er) on dos or prboom
Don't care, still having fun
>TNT
do people still hate it because it wasn't released for free? i think its great for the most part
I quite like its mixture of techbase and hell.
Wormhole and any derivative is a great map
wormhole really was a great map
o7 Ty
It's honestly more than doom at this point. To a point that it kinda sucks for just a game of classic good ol' doom.
CRISPY, ZANDRONUM, NUGGET, AND ETERNITY WILL RISE UP!
Is there a point in using Crispy when Nugget exists?
Nugget is Crispy but simply better
For DOOM no but nugget isn't compatible with Strife or Hexen
Dunno and don't care, still using Doomsday since the early jDoom days.
For me, Doomsday was a great introduction to source ports, because it's so easy to setup. But I cant deal with the weird darkness filters.
Is it only me? Doomsday looks like it has a weird darkened circle around the screen that I didnt notice at first, but couldnt stand once I noticed.
Switched to PrBoom+ and never looked back.
>a weird darkened circle around the screen
A vignette?
i hate gzdoom only mods its not really a doom mod at that point its just a new game running on gzdoom. how is it a doom mod at that point.
typically because half the sprites for monsters they end up using are a blend of edited Doom/Heretic/Hexen/Duke3d sprites so they have to make it a mod lest they get C&Ds from trying to make an original game with "stolen" assets, most doom modders aren't artists, or mappers for that matter, they just know how to shove layers of code on preexisting assets to make them do new things
lol right?
fricking tourists
my first time was on my dads old craptop. windows 95. no mouse. had one of those red nipple for a mouse, but that shit kinda sucked to use so i used arrow keys
is zsnes version of doom no one can match it and hacks or mods only work in there and not on other stuff.
>is zsnes version of doom
wat
I only ever play on Crispy with
>music turned off
>all other settings default
>No secrets/pickup display
>No secret markers on map
>No freelook
>D-pad only
How autistic am I?
>>D-pad only
>Doom
>D-pad
No
Play on arrow keys
nah arrow keys sucked
t.
getting to play it with a mouse was like getting to play a whole new game
Not enough. If you don't have an old enough PC and you don't want to buy one, use 86box.
2x res is too high res
I like several mods that are gzdoom exclusive. I play gzdoom exclusively now because I have a nice fat gayming computer and I can enable shit that shouldn't legally exist like pseudo ray tracing with jank ass github mods and for some reason that makes me happy.
I am fairly satisfied. I'm not sure why you all are not.
>I'm not sure why you all are not.
I just always assume the people who are b***hing are running a C2D Thinkpad with Intel 950 GME, and wonder why a engine that is Doom compatible, but is NOT Doom does not work at high FPS on their craptop
on complex maps, gzdoom has worse performance than AAA games. post your elementalism benchmarks so we can all see.
No, since I already know it's going to be trash.
GZDoom's core logic (Really, zDoom which is from 1998) was designed to be single threaded and wasn't ever designed to scale to what it's been asked to do with the scripting thats seen in the 2010s and later era of Doom WADs.
If you're surprised by this then I don't know what to tell you anon.
Also, for kicks I did load up the WAD (pk3 really) and it runs fine....
Whats your croptop anon?
>e1, in the corner of the map
of course it's going to run fine when there's nothing to render
try e3, e4 out of the starting area, f1, or f5
I don't know why you're bringing up the limited scope of gzdoom's multithreading, because that isn't what the problem is
anyway, I just got done playing Helldivers 2 and it runs better than that, despite also being on a dogshit abandoned engine.
Sincere question... do any source ports honestly genuinely have significantly better performance on these larger maps?
If so... you have a chance to convert me here and now. I just need an ounce of evidence.
for software mode probably not, but dsda at least has a much faster hw renderer than gz
here's some eviternity maps with all settings default other than setting 1080p and switching dsda from software to opengl
Helion is pretty fast, I guess.
man, this runs that map like 20x faster than gzdoom for me. gz only gets 20fps in some places
>Not maining DSDA-Doom while keeping GZDoom on the side for anything that explicitly needs it
I shiggy diggy
DSDA Doom is made by a Discord cabal that ignores issues on Github in favor of mutual dick sucking on their server.
Just looked and there’s 25 open, 125 closed, maybe half or less are bugs, is that bad? GZDoom is 76 open 466 closed.
You realize that open/closed bugs mean frick all right?
What other metric are you using for the dicksword cabal? I don’t sit in troon pits all day sorry
DSDA has a GitHub, but it's essentially just there for releases, if you submit an error report there they are going to fricking ignore it, they'll only pay attention if you go to their Discord channel to report the bug. The lead dev of DSDA has skin thinner than single ply toilet paper.
You're telling me I can get my wiener sucked for free?
Figuratively, if that's your thing
Is there even a need for DSDA when Woof/Nugget exists?
yes, it's the patrician choice
PRboom w full raytracing is pretty frickin neato, just got a poverty 4060 for the ancient rig and i've been blastin that shit at 1080p 120fps lul
Unironically kino in a lookin good kinda way, I don’t think my 5700xt can even do RT
I have a 6700XT and it barely runs Doom RTX.
I might upgrade to a 4060 once I get enough use out of my 3060, but even that's pretty good.
More people today have grown up playing Doom and Doom 2 with the moronic ZDoom default settings than anything closer to vanilla
I was born in 1991.
I played DOOM 2 in DOS with mouse enabled. I remember being blown away that you could move the mouse forward/back to move your character but obviously ultimately used the arrow keys for movement.
I like GZDoom with mouse look, jumping, and a weapon mod that adds reloading weapons.
New thing not inherently bad. Old thing not inherently better. Nobody is really missing much if they've only played GZDoom and not DOS versions. Only thing they're missing out on is some vague sense of... I don't know..? Is it a clout thing? "I PLAYED OLD DOOM!" I mean okay awesome but what does that really even mean..? Do you want a loyalty badge or something?
>jumping
>mouse look
>reloading
At some point it becomes a different game than what the devs designed, that's why, and people are being fooled into thinking they are playing Doom. I have nothing against playing however it makes you happy but you are making this choice. I grew up with Doom95 so not even DOS Doom, higher resolution, but no one tried to remake Doom the way they thought people should play Doom instead of the way Doom was made. If Doom95 had jump and freelook and reloading by default I would probably be using the defaults and know only something not quite Doom. Mods are for fans of the game that want new experiences, the first time player should not be introduced to something that changes the gameplay fundamentally without warning.
Imagine someone writes a source port to Doom 3 and for some reason decides that the game by default should be always bright so you don't need a flashlight anymore, you can play it like any other shooter. And it becomes the most popular way of playing Doom 3 and most new players don't even know it's supposed to be dark. I would want to see how it plays like that, but I have already played Doom 3 the way it was designed. I don't think it's respectful by the source port devs to the players and the original designers to change the gameplay fundamentally in a stealth way and advertise it as a mere port.
>and people are being fooled into thinking they are playing Doom
That's moronic, you're moronic.
He isn't wrong.
There are quite a few zoomers who's innital experience with Doom is Brutal Doom.
I know, and I know of plenty who then gave the base game a chance to then discover that they really liked it, a lot, often more than Brutal Doom.
Probably because Brutal Doom has had long periods of not very good gameplay balance, which straightens out the difficulty curve too much by making easier monsters harder and harder monsters easier (I haven't touched it in years, so I don't know how that looks these days).
It has worked a bit like a gateway drug for Doom in that sense. Some people simply don't care for the unmodified game and they weren't gonna give it a shot anyway (or they haven't come around to it yet), but many find that Doom has infinity to offer, both other advanced GzDoom mods, and just the base game itself which is undeniably well crafted and fun, and with all that is inbetween. I know of one or two zoomers who got into it with Brutal Doom as a teen, but are now almost purists.
>At some point it becomes a different game than what the devs designed
The devs designed the data format to be hackable and then open sourced the engine.
This is all exactly as they intended.
The most autistic kind of purists don't get that. Both John Romero and John Carmack were both hackers as kids, fricking around with other people's software to learn from it and make it different is a fundamental part of their DNA, the entire point with the .wad format and the publishing of the sourcecode was to promote what they regarded as "the hacker ethic" among their fans.
Completely missing the point
Keep pretending the argument is being against modding to win the argument inside your head
That is the only argument.
How is it not? The screeching is over the game being modified.
Ganker is too moronic to understand what you are trying to say. Anyway is it possible to get the OG control experience on modern hardware?
>Imagine someone writes a source port to Doom 3 and for some reason decides that the game by default should be always bright so you don't need a flashlight anymore, you can play it like any other shooter. And it becomes the most popular way of playing Doom 3 and most new players don't even know it's supposed to be dark
yOu HAVe oNLY bEatEN tHe gAME whEn YOU found THe oRigiNal CrEatoR aND BeaT HIM Over tHe HEaD WITH oriGINAL HArDWARe
Does it count if you use Vanilla Essence on default settings?
>jumping
thank god for the "skip half the level" mod that is on by default so zoomers never play the fricking game
One of my first Doom experiences will end up being Doom 32x Resurrection, so that pretty much reveals how old I truly am.
I just don't understand why every open source project these days feels that it's absolutely necessary to jump into the bleeding edge and abandon old tech as soon as possible. I understand why Apple does it because they need to sell new overpriced models of phones and PC's for the tech illiterate consumer despite ones from 10 years ago being perfectly viable. But stuff like GNOME, wayland, SystemD, ZDoom, Firefox? What are they gaining from this express release cycle?
Try to play Wolfendoom, a mod made specifically for ZDoom in the 00's, you can't anymore because some things it needed were deprecated. In 2015 someone made a patch for wolfendoom to play on modern GZdoom. Guess what, the patch depends on stuff that has also been deprecated since. This is the source port to end all source ports?
I don't know how it is for those other programs, but I know the devs for GZDoom are stuck in a weird situation where working around the decades of shitty spaghetti code held together with dried cum and optimism means the engine doesn't work very good.
But of course if the team throws all that shit out, then they destroy compatibility with decades of Doom mods. It's a catch 22.
A fork must be created.
and then you end up with dozens of forks that everyone has to keep track of and you end up with the current source port problem of "well which fricking one do i use?"
They already have that, except it's a hundred different versions of GZDoom for each mod.
>and abandon old tech as soon as possible
Because why put time and effort into supporting hardware which nobody in your userbase is actually using? People cried about GzDoom abandoning 32bit support, yet it turned that virtually nobody at all was running GzDoom on 32bit machines, complainers basically just liked the idea of it being there, in spite of them playing on 64bit computers.
That was GzDoom holding on to 32bit support for a very long time, too, machines which had not been manufactured for over a decade by that point, so they weren't exactly in a hurry. The same for OpenGL, it's not exactly a contemporary rendering backend in 2024, finally dropping it to better support what people are ACTUALLY using is perfectly reasonable.
>abandon old tech as soon as possible
i answered this question and got banned for it from all boards, so it must be true. look it up
>What are they gaining from this express release cycle?
Not much, but the maintainers work in industry. They're forced to work with new software for stupid ideas, or they're made redundant. On the one hand, it's how they're used to behaving without even thinking about whether they should. But it also takes a lot of time to learn that shit and your other knowledge fades as you do. When they step up to the mantle for an OSS community project, if they want to be expedient about something then they end up using the new stuff because they're primed with it/can use it for their work.
No wonder zoomers rely on rust for everything, because they haven't even been in the industry yet.
Is Rust really that bad?
It's actually quite easy to read. I've been lurking thru jgenesis' code on github.
https://github.com/jsgroth/jgenesis
>Code
It is just me or Rust looks like a bastard child between Lua and JavaScript
It is, but it oddly works. TiTAN Overdrive 2 runs without any noticeable flaws, if that says anything.
It's open source dude if I want to download a version or even make my own version that supports up to early 80 ibm pc I can. Unlike paid software you can also download old versions legally
>Unlike paid software you can also download old versions legally
FL Studio lets you do this
MBF21 adoption will make it obsolete
GzDoom supports MBF21 since some time now, and there's already rumblings about a new standard which will eventually replace it in the future, one which will use the UDMF map format. Probably something which will also have a coding language akin to a shaved down Decorate, rather than building more onto the convoluted bullshit that is DeHacked.
Nothing of that will make GzDoom obsolete anyway, because people want demo compat and mild system requirements for this prospective standard, which leaves GzDoom to be able to do shitloads more by the virtue of not giving a frick about those, something which a lot of people also want.
It'd be the ideal situation, actually. A more flexible and useful 'low end' standard which works better and is easier to implement, and then a 'high end' standard which can run the former, and which you can then go balls to the walls with if you really want to.
Gzdoom is a divine vessel for the gospel of SGT. MARK IV and nothing else is important or matters
Good luck running Poogers on JizzyDoom
>Will it ever be dethroned? Can it be?
No, because whining never dethroned anything. Forking it out of spite isn't going to get you anywhere either because holding the same level of spite for such long periods of time is a net loss mentally, and would cloud your judgement when making important technical decisions. GZDoom can only be dethroned by someone with actual passion. Problem is there's a lot of legacy code bogging down the internal logic, which if you throw out you basically end up with a completely different engine so you're back to square one with a bunch of lazy homosexuals screaming "IT AIN'T DOOM" at you, meaning anyone with a passion is going to take one look at the landscape and go "lmao frick that". So no. GZDoom won't get dethroned because its userbase is what is ultimately keeping both that port and everything else in the mud.
While still popular, GZDoom doesn't have the same stranglehold on the community that it had back in the late 2000's/early 2010's, IMO.
Throughout the 2010's was a major Vanilla/Boom mapping revival
By the 2020's, we've gotten newer stuff like MBF21 and UMAPINFO that also don't rely on GZDoom to run.
Source ports like DSDA-Doom and Woof are much more lightweight compared to GZDoom.
Gameplay mods (which were a common reason for people using GZDoom for everything) aren't nearly as popular as they used to be.
I appreciate the vanilla focus lately but it feels so limited after a while, every mapset feels like the same old thing, same weapons, same monsters, same strategies, it gets old, that's half the reason i keep fricking around with g/zdoom mods on stuff because it spices up the enemies, or weapons, gives me something new than just a different set of maps and textures
Are there limit removing source ports better performing than GZDoom? I’m asking I don’t know, I’ve just been using it out of familiarity, but if there’s a better option that runs like 90+% of WADs I have no problem switching to it.
Woof
*fricking mogs rapes and gapes and pwns gayzogdoom*
snowberry > that shite.
>snowberry
Pls no, can we go back to kickstart?
What's the story with Doomsday anyway? I remember it always kinda being there, but nobody would ever talk about it or even acknowledge its existence.
It was popular 20-something years ago, kinda like Doom Legacy, except much more graphically advanced.
Ran well enough on my old rig (P133, RivaTNT). Lightning really impressed me at the time.
As people either gone the way of GZDoom or gone back to something more vanilla it kinda died. I still love it though and it got some diehard fans.
>Doom Legacy
this one takes me back, it's the first real source port i used. it lives on as SRB2 and SRB2Kart's game engine. why don't more indie games do this?
nta but i also loved legacy cause it had splitscreen which i loved playing with my friends.
yeah, it's a really cool feature and SRB2 and Kart ended up inheriting it, which is fitting.
I truly wish Zandronum and new fresh multiplayer mods made a comeback instead of co-op slop.
Isn't Odamex the most competitive one? World Doom League uses it.
Mini-rant but, Odamex killed competitive. World Doom League is what you'd call a former shell of what competitive Doom used to be. There hasn't been a major tournament in two years now and historically there used to be yearly tournaments and usually even more often than that. What ended all momentum of competitive thriving and keeping us multiplayer-competitive gays satiated really was the forced usage of Odamex by a very specific group of people.
World Doom League used to be known as the "International Doom League" or IDL. As far as competitive doom is concerned, this was the peak experience by far. IDL had the biggest turnout of any online doom event probably ever in 2011 and that would sadly be the last year it was ran. I'm talking like over 130 people signed up to play on a blacklisted server in Zdaemon of all places. All kinds of people from all walks of "doom life" were coming out of the woodworks to play in the IDL. I'm talking like speedrunners, duelists, deathmatchers, etc. There were so many people they had to straight up do a "B-tier" tournament from just the volume.
These IDL events were ran by the UD clan and their leader is permanently banned from Zdaemon. The tl;dr is that he had a hissyfit with the owner of Zdaemon and tried to get him into legal trouble out of spite (their automatic wad downloader was able to crawl through the web and get doom2.wad). So with him being a security threat, he was permanently banned from Zdaemon. What he could still do was run private servers on Zdaemon that didn't interact with the main pool of players so he ran competitive events with his clan and anyone that wanted a "serious" experience would just play in those private servers.
So going back to the the success of 2011 IDL, this guy, the leader of UD, let all of the success go to his head and forced everyone to play on Odamex, which at the time was vastly inferior to all other Doom ports, which is arguably true even now. The experience was so bad that every year after that 2011 event, less and less people signed up to the point where nobody even wants to play or do tournaments anymore. You would think Covid and everyone playing video games at home would spark up another "renaissance-era" for competitive Doom but no. Legitimately that clan forcing Odamex pretty much poisoned the entire community.
To his credit he helped prop up the competitive Doom scene but if he just didn't have that massive ego problem and made an entire port just to evade his Zdaemon ban, competitive Doom likely would be more active than even Quake 3. I'm not even joking. So frick Odamex, anyone who props that shit up is a shill. The Quakecon events that run Odamex as the de-facto pvp port for their events are a fricking yearly meme and that's all it'll ever be known for.
It's actually sickening to see competitive Doom in its current state when it used to be so. fricking. good.
Didn't Skulltag also have a good competitive scene till shit happened?
The Skulltag lore I'm not crazy familiar with but it was popular with anyone that wanted something Doom but a little different. Like people still played Capture the Flag, Deathmatch, etc, but there were subtle yet significant changes like the overall physics engine of the port. For most of its lifespan it was pretty stable and it eventually evolved to be the go-to place for making and playing multiplayer Doom mods. At the time I did think it was pretty funny when mods like Ghouls vs Humans became popular and all the competitive pvp Skulltag people were getting really insecure and not calling it "real doom" when that place was never "real doom" to begin with.
But I can say the clan rivalry and general drama of that port was second to none. Even if it didn't have the crazy 130+ player events, the active people and all the bullshit they brought with them made that ports experience seriously unique. Like, people were DIRTY about pvp there. And I mean really dirty. Like the lead admin at that time would alias into a clan and pretend to be someone else during actual clan battles. Lots of politics, men pretending to be women and demanding special favors, doxxing, grooming, etc. Like that whole Skulltag/Early Zandronum era could be made into a low budget drama show and you'd all be glued to it.
Zandronum just got a big beta update.
Be the change you wanna see
cope and seethe fossil, no one cares about "competitive" ssg jousting anymore
arrest yourself and go to bed cranky zoomie, you cared enough to reply.
So what's the better source port to make mods with?
most gzdoom gameplay mods suck ass anyway. woof is where it's at.
GZdoom is only really used if you are playing something that isn't doom, or requires shit that doom or boom can't do. if you are playing a wad designed for doom or boom.... why would i use a source port that uses 100* more resources when i can just play on pr boom + ?
gzdoom is pretty 1337 with freedoom, dhtp, and 4xbrz
there needs to be a new sourceport that's compatible with everything gzdoom related while still able to do loads of sectors without slowing down, is that too much of an ask? just look at ironwail for quake
Would take a whole lot more work then fixing GZDoom, which it self would still be a large effort.
Really no easy path on this one.
it may be a hard task, but possible. it needs the likes of which we haven't seen the likes of which, instead of some moron that forces texture filtering on as default settings
Sounds good, do it.
>Why don't people just do magic? It's so obvious!
Waiting until 30 is a long time...
?
It takes too long to become a wizard.
What's this I've been hearing about VKDoom, and GzDoom implementing whatever they're working on? Would it help resolve a lot of the performance problems?
Probably not. I think that mostly applies to new features, but not the optimization that would break Doom compatibility more, as VKDoom takes a more liberal approach and intended for indie devs in the first place.
Nah, it will probably bloat EVEN MORE the engine.
GZDoom codebase is as disastrous as a Bethesda game.
I almost never get GzDoom crashing.
The lack of voxel software support almost always making Gzdoom crash was quite annoying so I had to stop progress on this project intended for Software mode
Woah, this looks awesome!
Thanks, I might go back to this project and only work on the graphical/sound design instead of testing the game every time so I could convert to a different engine some day, I'm not a coder or a leader.
Never heard of it? Probably doesn't have the proper scripting support I'd need for certain systems like changed ai, escalators and bobbing styles
Woof is for Boom/MBF21 wads, so definitely won't support anything advanced. But it does run Voxel Doom specifically.
Isn't MBF21 considered as "advanced"?
It does have a lot of possibilities, but nothing as advanced as scripting.
Woof got voxel support recently, strangely enough.
>https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/105782-difference-between-performance-on-zandronum-and-gzdoom/?tab=comments#comment-1982115
>https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/50867-forking-gzdoom-anyone/?tab=comments#comment-873386
What could go wrong?
Server client network when gzdoom?
They can't even make vanilla Doom 2 run without resorting to Vulkan, what makes you think they'd be capable of writing working server client netcode?
Love how Rachael's proposal to combat, not performance issues themselves, but the complaints about said performance issues was to implement deliberately annoying, deliberately difficult to disable, nagging warnings that say something to the tune of "We will ignore demands to optimize GZDoom to accommodate this mod. Instead, bug the creator to fix the mod, as it's trying to run far beyond GZDoom's capabilities. Better yet, stop trying to run this mod on a poltato pc, you'll get nowhere."
https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?t=75965
Not to mention that one time when some guy made a post on the ZDoom forums detailing exactly what causes such performance problems and where in the code it happens, and the response he got was literally "if you're so smart go fix it yourself".
I tried looking for it myself but I can't seem to find it anywhere anymore.
Someone needs to find this and highlight it.
If this happened, they got some serious explaining to do.
All I remember is that the guy's account was new and had no avatar and the post was somewhere in 2021-2022.
was that the guy who works at nightdive? I remember one of their employees discussing the performance stuff
SVKaiser?
Now that you mention it...
I may have been thinking of Edward850 and all his recent posts are on Doomworld, so it's probably not him
have they written about what they did? it seems like there are so many places for optimization, it'd be interesting to read about
If this is found, GZDoom may finally be fixed.
Those who shrugged it off showed some extreme negligence toward the solution to a problem that's been plaguing everybody.
Reminds me of the time SM64 could've chugged less in underwater levels if it had a certain compiling flag enabled.
Was it this?
https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?p=1120968
yes
They fricking killed him
>"muh feelings" stopped a potential fix from happening
*potentially stopped a fix from happening
>waah you fix it i don't know how to code
gzdoom schizos in a nutshell
>Identifies the problem, but hasn't the knowledge of how to fix it
>Shows it to those who are capable of fixing it
>Those who are capable of fixing it decide not to because their ego was challenged or something
The GZDoom engine is crippled and will remain crippled until Doom and its surrounding community dies with nought but a frail whimper, all because some ego-driven troon got his fee-fees hurt.
I am madder at this than Doomguy is about his pet rabbit.
It's funny too, because troons can be capable of making good shit if they didn't let their feelings get to them.
Exactly.
It's cool and colorful
The whole reason for trooning out is feelings. That's like saying you can remove the smell from a hunk of shit.
e.g. International Doom
wow he figured out something that was already figured out 2 months prior
>issue apperantly "figured out" before
>problems with VRAM management in vulkan on gzdoom/vkdoom are still present TO THIS DAY
You're not making yourself look better, dpJudas. You're still a moron who can't code for shit.
Remember how you changed UDB's renderer from DirectX to OpenGL, only for it to perform worse and be less accurate to how GZDoom actually renders the level? I do.
Man, I hate that moronic troon. Nothing good has come from him.
If you're play a gzdoom mod that tanks performance wtf do you turn to?
GZ Devs certainly aint gonna help you, and your computer is meant to be top of the line.
What gives?
If you had to make that shit with AI, then you're a lazy frick.
GZDoom needs fixing bad
Rather than fixing GZDoom, why don't we engooden its competitors?
>Rather than fixing GZDoom, why don't we engooden its competitors?
What does engooden mean, and why would we want to do that instead of forking GZDoom and fixing THAT?
Try fixing shit that's already made and bloated to all hell, wired together in the most convoluted of ways. That ain't happening, as cool as that'd be.
Vkdoom is trying by changing the renderer, which does help but it's already outdated on features plus graf zahl said he's considering vulkan only for gzdoom 5 already
Moral of the story: Only use Chocolate Doom if you want to play Doom in its untouched form.
Yeah I really dont know why you'd play unmodded doom gameplay on anything higher than like prboom+
Anything after that is big mod territory only
Then that was my first mistake, because I would've originally went the 86box route.
For me, it's Nugget. I like the visual options.
There are a lot of mods made for GZDoom that can't be played on other source ports.
I just so happen to want to play them
god I hope so. the main dev sucks.
I used to run Zandronum and PrBoom+ until about a year ago, played on those for a long time. Caved and got GZDoom and I keep forgetting g the other two exist now. It's just easier.
What really need fixing is Doom Builder. It still blows my mind how hard it is to do anything in this day and age. We need a decent WAD editor that doesn't require an 8 hour course to change a texture or having to jump through fiery hoops to make custom skyboxes work. Same for anything coding related, shit takes three times the work it deserved to take.
Doom builder needs a complete UI and function overhaul.
>doom builder
>hard
anon..
Doom Builder is one of the most easy to use level editors in the world, what the frick are you talking about?
Be glad it's not like whatever the Columbine kids made in order to make THEIR wads.
I can only imagine that trying to use DEU or DeePsea would outright kill you.
I've used Sonic level editors that were even harder to use than all of those. It's pain...
>textured first person 3D editing mode using your mouse
>really intuitive interface and keyboard shortcuts
>built in nodebuilders which were actually pretty good and reliable
>runs natively in Windows
>came with an easy to understand beginner's guide with clear pictures
>didn't cost anything at all (unlike some other editors)
CodeImp and Dr.Sleep are heroes, map editors for Doom was a wasteland before Doom Builder. I remember when it was new, it was so easy to use that it was actually fun.
I was still a newbie kid back then who just crudely threw shit at Skulltag hoping to make it work, so I wasn't making any masterpieces or anything, but goddamn it was so EASY. I always loved to doodle, so for me Doom Builder would satisfy that beyond what I could get from crude sketches in the margins of my math notebook.
I've had mixed experiences with FOSS software overall through life, but the Doom Builder series is probably the best example of what they should be, it's left all the alternatives in the dust.
All I read was "nodebuilders", and I was immediately hooked.
Something's gotta build your nodes and BSP tree and all that.
Not all old map editors had them built in, combine with the slower computers at the time making this lengthy, and the fact that they just weren't very good, and you could wait hours for them to build only for you to return to your computer and discover that it fricked up for some reason.
Usually the old ones would have a very difficult time with too fine detail (too many vertices and linedefs too closely together), so if you wanted to do that kind of shit you had to really pray that you wouldn't have to redo and compromise what you were going for.
I've been learning node stuff via shit like Chainner and Toon Boom Harmony, so this should be easy to adapt to.
What is there to learn? The software does it for you.
EVEN BETTER!
The worst part of Doom Builder is that nobody has ported it to Linux.
dotNET is FOSS now, it should be possible.
or Hellmaker, or DoomCAD, or Wadauthor
I have actually used all of these.
Or ZETH.
Early ZDoom maps were made in it
If memory serves me right, Dario Casali said that he created his levels with DoomCAD when he made Plutonia with his brother.
Anon...
Doom Builder is easy to use, even a moron can do maps easily with.
Ok cool, but can I play myhouse.wad on anything OTHER than GZdoom?
Unfortunately, you are stuck with JizzyDoom for all your Brutal MyHouse needs.
Good enough, as long as there's an alternative.
Someone should put GZDoom on a nasa supercomputer
It would still run like ass
Extermination Day still the best gzdoom wad ive played and it's really not even close
It's pretty good, but for me it's Doom 2 Re-Build-t with NTMAI.
(me)
oh shit.. tabs
Is it comfortable to doom using a chinkheld?
Ive tried and tried and my feeling is that the original games can be played well enough with a controller, but any implementation of mouselook (gzdoom) is fricking unplayable. I dint know exactly why but i cant ever get ththe settings of sny doom port to work well with any controller, speaking specifically about the xyz axis. I really tried too, brutal doom runs pretty well on switch but you just cant fricking look up and down and center back correctly.
I don't have one of those, but I've played through the first two games and Sigil on my Switch. It went pretty well.
It played well enough on GP2X and Dingoo A320. I doubt that modern chinkhelds are much worse.
Demons are trying to claim doom for themselves it seems...
What if we put ZScript, and all of GZDoom's modding capabilities into an engine that doesn't suck dick?
Go ahead, it's all open source. :^)
Those who can't want to
Those who can won't
I'm dumb and code illiterate but considering how autistic the open source community is about sinking hundreds of hours forking a fork of a project because of one update that added some small inconvenience I assume if some crazy genius isn't doing it, it's probably really not worth doing for some good reason i can't understand.
yes
I love GZdoom along with eduke32 and Raze
I dunno I saw the uptick of other doom ports for vanillia doom type gameplay. GZDoom is pretty much now a port for people who don't actually want to play doom and don't want to deal with shit like enemies having infinite collision height and just want to install all sorts of crazy mods at which point it's not doom anymore
Most ports let you disable infinite actor height now.
>doom levels
Still Doom.
Actually Hexen levels with Doom skin
You could do that too, GzDoom supports Hexen. Some cool fricker even recreated the weapons from Quake 1 as a mod for Heretic.
It was a reference to the fact that Doom-in-Hexen was the most popular map format for ZDoom before UDMF. It's where ACS originally is from.
Shit, you're right, I forgot COMPLETELY about Doom-In-Hexen. Wasn't that eventually replaced with a dedicated ZDoom format almost 20 years ago?
You might be thinking about ZMAPINFO, but that's a different thing. Also originated in Hexen though.
>not doom
what exactly makes it "not doom"?
well hideous destructor, project msx, even brutal doom aren't exactly doom.
Sure, but Hideous Destructor is the kind of thing which can only be made OUT OF Doom.
>tactical shooter with a fairly high degree of realism (by videogame standards)
>managing wounds and injuries, have to stop bleeding, have to put yourself out if you're burning, etc
>managing weapons, as well as loading magazines, experiencing and clearing malfunctions, etc
>gadgets like turret guns, tripwire bombs, breaching charges, ropeladders, jetpacks, medical stapleguns, devices for reloading spent cased ammunition
>can do stuff like shoot through thin enough walls, mount barriers, breach locked doors or otherwise destroy some limited level geometry
BUT, it's not in a realistic real world environment where you're just up against realistic real world opponents.
>abstract classic shooter level design (Doom levels, and .wad levels)
>enemies include dudes with guns, but most are supernatural demons who are vicious c**ts with evil magic
>resurrection of dead enemies occasionally happens sporadically through rogue magic energy, or is helped by certain types of Imps, aside from the meaner than ever Arch-Vile
>sometimes, some enemies can destroy level geometry
>certain weapons work better in certain contexts (guns with bigger and heavier bullets will work better against enemies with shields)
>you, the player, can also use magic bullshit against the demons, you can use magic to quickly heal grievous injuries which medical science can't
>Berserk allows you to go absolutely apeshit and tank high damage
"Doom as a realistic milsim tactical shooter" isn't what most people want at all, it's a niche thing, but Hideous Destructor is the best way that this concept can possibly be executed. It's an extremely different experience from the original Doom, but it's still very strongly informed from Doom's fundamental structure and design, and can only exist because of it.
Mods like these I think are one of the strongest arguments there is in favor of advanced sourceports like GzD
Further, as much as Hideous Destructor encourages a very cautious and methodical play style given how much more hostile the game is to the player, once you get the knack for it you can learn how to be a fast and reckless action hero running and gunning. It's entirely possible to take on the big boss monsters in one on one fist fights if you learn all the patterns and behaviors, and plan accordingly.
Sorry for tisming.
I love GZDoom
I wish its flaws would be fixed
I'd be devastated if it were to die
Do people play online much using Zandronum?
They do?
I've seen more people playing MegaMan 8BDM more that Vanilla Doom on Zandronum
never seen it's playercount go below 15, even on slow days
>Vanilla Doom
there's your problem
I just want it to stop hitching in Vulkan. Is that too much to ask?
>people come up with 20 other sourceports as the 'real' best one
>several high profile/extensive mods require GZ
This is why. Okay gays, which sourceport should I use that'll run at least 95% of what GZDoom will, and you better fricking agree. I acknowledge that GZ's a piece of shit but it werks just well enough, so convince me out of it.
At least 95% of all Doom-related content is Boom compat or lower, so Woof would run it all just fine.
Well, maybe one day you will learn to actually read.
That is what GZDoom runs, bozo.
Does it have ZScript? Decorate? ACS? Any of that good stuff?
That's not "95% of what GZDoom will run."
True, GzDoom will in fact run 99% of all Doom content.
Which other ports do just as well.
GZDoom is the chink handheld of Doom engines.
DSDA cannot play, Pirate Doom or Action Doom, to just name a few. Ease your salt.
LZDoom can while running 5 times better.
I don't need LzDoom.
Do you want me to list the hundreds of ZDoom and GzDoom .wads there are out there?
>hundreds
So like 1% of all the Doom content out there?
So you're getting autismally hung up on informal semantics in a casual conversation?
It's not my fault you got proven wrong.
If you want to get autistic about metrics, the reality is that it's far more than 99%. Of all Vanilla, Boom, MBF, and MBF21 content, there's vanishingly little which does not run in GzDoom, the only notable exception being Batman Doom (which has a compat patch).
We also have Heretic, Hexen, and Strife, along with the advanced mods made for those.
For more advanced stuff that doesn't work in GzDoom we have the old Edge sourceport stuff, almost all of which is completely forgettable, we have Heartland, which is really good, but unfortunately the only worthwhile work there has ever been made for Eternity Engine, and some lingering smatterings of old Skulltag/Zandronum content which nobody thought to update because nobody plays it, and even then it would not be much effort to make that work.
So 2 wads out of thousands?
I can play myhouse.wad on JizzyDoom apparently, so it's close-enough.
I play smooth doom with software visuals all vanilla options
In GZDoom?
There is a MBF21 version of smooth doom now if you're interested.
A new one? Because there's been one for vanilla that's been around for years.
Yes, it came out last year, it's close to the original ZDoom Smooth Doom.
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/133318-smooth-doom-on-mbf21-dsdhacked-standard-edition-v5-and-classic-edition-v3-released/
I tried it in DSDA.
Pretty cool. I'll have to break into it to change some things like the plasma & rocket trails, but there's some really neat things in there. Like bullet casings. Sucks it's not really compatible with colored blood.
Is there anything wrong with this though? I think its great the game has lived on for so long thanks to GZDoom.
I like modern FPS controls, so it's a nice treat.
For slaughter maps, there's also a mod which allows you to adjust GzDoom's AI by distance, so if a slaughter level has a huge box of pinkies somewhere way outside the map and they aren't spawned in for a while, they can be made to just make their calls at a fixed, very slow rate.
This can free up resources by a LOT, and make a dramatic difference on SOME levels.
Maybe naysayers are wrong and it's still possible to optimize GzDoom more than it is, and in ways which aren't insignificant, but as it is it has certain bottlenecks owing to how it's put together, some which can be managed or addressed, some which maybe can't.
Fix GZDoom Noowww
Fixit fixit fixit
Been playing some DSDA, and Chex Quest works fine on it kek.
So which mods don't work on GZ, then? I remember one requiring or recommending DSDA but I forget which one that was offhand.