Would Frostbite being added as a main series condition to replace freeze be a good thing?
Would Frostbite being added as a main series condition to replace freeze be a good thing?
Would Frostbite being added as a main series condition to replace freeze be a good thing?
>ruins ice's identity
>ruins the special stat's identity
No. Anyone who suggests this is a moron who doesn't understand how the game works.
>ruins ice's identity
Nobody uses ice-type moves for the chance to freeze.
>ruins the special stat's identity
Also no.
>Nobody uses ice-type moves for the chance to freeze
Yeah? So?
>Also no
Why do you think Physical and Special even exist as separate categories in the game? Why do you think Physical moves are so abundant despite Burn and Intimidate existing? I want to see your moron reasoning.
>Yeah? So?
If freeze isn't part of ice's identity then there's no problem with it being removed in favor of frostbite.
>If freeze isn't part of ice's identity
That's not what I said.
>ruins ice's identity
>ruins ice's identity
>ruins ice's identity
Care to explain then?
Because Earthquake and Close Combat are fricking stupid.
>Why do you think Physical and Special even exist as separate categories in the game?
Jesus. Christ.
You're so moronic of a zoomer that you think the physical special split was about balance? That there's any sort of forethought given to BPs of moves with regards to physical and special?
Just looking at Rock or Bug moves alone shows how huge of a moron you are.
It would give all those defensive ice types actual ammo to work with. Snow was already changed to boost their defense, so neutering special attackers would let them actually take a hit or two even through all their weaknesses. For example, Frosmoth would actually be the special wall it was supposed to be.
>It would give all those defensive ice types actual ammo to work with
If you're using Ice-types defensively you're playing the game wrong.
Ice-type's specialty is having high offensive pressure. Why the frick would I want a useless Sp. Atk drop instead of being able to remove the opponent entirely?
>If you're using Ice-types defensively you're playing the game wrong.
So using Aurora Veil, Snow Cloak, and Snow at all is the wrong way to play? Remember that hail and snow don't boost Ice-type damage, hail only deals chip damage and snow increases defense instead.
Your idea runs counter to what Gamefreak says you can do.
>So using Aurora Veil, Snow Cloak, and Snow at all is the wrong way to play?
What those do is buy you time to actually KO the opponent. Sitting there hoping to drop the opponent's Sp. Atk adds literally nothing useful to the type's utility.
>What those do is buy you time to actually KO the opponent.
And that's different from the attack drop from burn how...?
Burn is used to slowly cripple a specific target over time. This doesn't help a type that needs instant removal and doesn't want to fight the opponent for long. When I'm using an Ice type I want to REMOVE the threat, not cripple it.
Being bulky and being defensive aren't the same thing. Glastrier is bulky but if you're trying to use it to stall and slowly kill the opponent while taking constant hits you're playing like a moron.
>Burn is used to slowly cripple a specific target over time.
That's what Frostbite does too. It deals damage over time, it's not just a special attack drop.
>That's what Frostbite does too
Yes. And it adds zero fricking value to the type compared to being able to shut down the opponent entirely with Freeze. Which is why it's a shit addition to the game on top of completely shitting on Special attackers for literally no reason.
Freeze is never getting buffed because its like petrification in an RPG completely broken
>Freeze is never getting buffed
Yeah, because it doesn't need to be buffed.
>The highest chance of actually landing freeze is 30% when used by Secret Power on snowy terrain. Everything else is 10% at maximum
Ok? And? The intention of Freeze isn't to reliably hit it. That would make it broken.
>It gives freeze/frostbite-curing moves more utility
Ice moves already have utility by being able to shut down the opponent entirely.
>and if you want to shut down your opponent just use a sleep-inflicting move.
Sleep moves don't let me damage the opponent while also having a chance to permanently shut them down you dumbfrick. If you want to slowly damage the opponent like a moron just use a Burn-inflicting move.
>The intention of Freeze isn't to reliably hit it.
Might as well remove it then and add in frostbite, which is more useful.
>If you want to slowly damage the opponent like a moron just use a Burn-inflicting move.
Oooooor I could use a frostbite-inflicting move. Your resistance to this concept is truly baffling.
>Might as well remove it
No.
>which is more useful.
How in the frick is reducing one offensive stat more useful than effectively deleting the opponent? Are you moronic?
>Oooooor I could use a frostbite-inflicting move.
Ooooor you could just use a burn-inflicting move instead of asking for the game to be worse. Your resistance to this concept is truly baffling.
>How in the frick is reducing one offensive stat more useful than effectively deleting the opponent?
So why do people use Will-o-Wisp instead of just use Fire Blast?
>So why do people use Will-o-Wisp instead of just use Fire Blast?
Because Fire is useful defensively while Ice isn't.
No one said you need to make a strategy around it you dumbfrick. But it is still a massively useful win condition to be able to have.
And why do you think they were made fricking stupid?
>while Ice isn't.
And snow's defense increase, aurora veil's defense and special defense increase, and abilities like Snow Cloak, Slush Rush, and Ice Body aren't? Plus, I could just switch if I really wanted to, leaving the opposing Pokemon with a cut special attack stat.
>And snow's defense increase, aurora veil's defense and special defense increase, and abilities like Snow Cloak, Slush Rush, and Ice Body aren't?
None of these are useful if you're not actively attacking the opponent and can easily be removed if your opponent has any form of weather control.
>hurrr cloyster has big defense stat so that means I'm supposed to use it defensively
>hurr glastrier has big defense stat so that means I'm supposed to use it defensively
>hurr baxcalibur has big hp stat so that means I'm supposed to use it defensively
You're not very smart, are you?
>None of these are useful if you're not actively attacking the opponent
Which is what Frostbite's health drain does. Just like Burn's.
>and can easily be removed if your opponent has any form of weather control.
Like any other weather? Aurora Veil still persists even if snow ends and it's still up, and why wouldn't I have mons that know Snowscape if I'm exploiting snow?
>Which is what Frostbite's health drain does
Which isn't useful for Ice types compared to removing the opponent entirely.
>Like any other weather?
Yes.
>Aurora Veil still persists even if snow ends and it's still up
Aurora Veil is temporary. Meaning you need to actually need to be doing something to the opponent instead of sitting there stalling like a moron.
>and why wouldn't I have mons that know Snowscape if I'm exploiting snow?
And why wouldn't the opponent use weather moves to cancel out your weather?
>And it adds zero fricking value to the type compared to being able to shut down the opponent entirely with Freeze.
The highest chance of actually landing freeze is 30% when used by Secret Power on snowy terrain. Everything else is 10% at maximum. Even disregarding Will-o-wisp, burn has 7 moves with a 100% chance of inflicting it, one move with a 50% chance, and TEN moves with a 30% chance of inflicting it.
Removing freeze entirely and replacing it with frostbite, with similarly increased odds of occurring, is far better. It gives freeze/frostbite-curing moves more utility, and if you want to shut down your opponent just use a sleep-inflicting move.
lol freeze doesnt proc nearly enough to make a strategy around it
i refuse to believe you or anyone actually cares about Freeze that much
I've won multiple games thanks to Ice moves having a 10% chance of effectively deleting the opponent just for landing the move.
I would have benefitted in exactly zero of those games if it was replaced with a shitty useless burn effect.
It's really amusing that you think your obvious bullshit convinces anyone of anything outside of you being full of it. You have to be underage to be this brazen
>he's such a campaignshitter that someone actually playing PvP is a foreign magical concept to him
pretty sad tbh
You very clearly don't play competitive if you actually think banking on ice type freeze is a competent strategy. You are really embarrassing yourself with this whole thing
>You very clearly don't play competitive if you actually think banking on ice type freeze is a competent strategy
As opposed to....losing by not realizing it's an option and not playing to your wincons? Wow anon you're so skilled at the game!
It's at most a 10% chance, using fissure is more consistent than a freeze from ice beam
>It's at most a 10% chance,
That's a 10% chance I could have at winning that wouldn't exist otherwise if I had a shitty useless burn clone instead.
>relying on a 10% chance on ANYTHING to win a battle for the sake of a dopamine hit
And posting the webm of Sheer Cold (hur higher accuracy) not missing won't prove anything.
The "shitty useless burn effect" drops effective special damage by 50%, which has just as much of a chance of netting you a win that you otherwise wouldn't as freeze does.
But you're probably too stupid to realize this as you're from some stinky brown third world country.
> The "shitty useless burn effect" drops effective special damage by 50%
Freeze drops effective special damage by 100%. It also drops effective physical damage by 100%. Why the frick would I want Frostbite over Freeze again?
>get the freeze
>HAHA I TOTALLY WIN
>they defrost the very same turn they get frozen
>they attack
>you lose
lol
lmao even.
Dumb brownoid.
Need proof.
Depends on the match-up and access to recovery I guess. Imagine a frostbitten special attacker or physical attacker in the snow vs a fatass Walrein stockpiling, Aqua Ring, Leftovers, Protect. Could prolly get annoying quick.
So what about Avalugg?
>When I'm using an Ice type I want to REMOVE the threat, not cripple it.
Too bad it can't do that as it is.
>What those do is buy you time to actually KO the opponent.
They do this by being DEFENSIVE options, you Neanderthal
Attacking the opponent while you have limited time buffs isn't being defensive.
>It outspeeds with Choice Scarf
Your calc uses Choice Band you fricking dumbass. You can't even keep your own narrative straight.
There's so many slow buky ice types though, it's a shit defensive typing but it's finally getting opportunities to fulfill those niches
>If you're using Ice-types defensively you're playing the game wrong.
Tell that to GameFreak, who continues to create slow defensive ice types.
>Why the frick would I want a useless Sp. Atk drop instead of being able to remove the opponent entirely?
For the literal same reasons people afflict Burn status effects, except for Sp. Atk mons.
>But I can just freeze opponents
Freeze has and never will be a reliable way to deal with an opponent with its activation rate and limited availability. With how quickly it can change the flow of battle by effectively KO'ing a 'mon without actually KO'ing them, it's literally too potent a status effect to make higher than Serene Grace's proc chance.
> For the literal same reasons people afflict Burn status effects
To stall out the opponent? Which Ice is fricking terrible at? Or to cripple attackers? Which isn’t needed for special attackers since they’re not even remotely as oppressive as physical attackers?
> Freeze has and never will be a reliable way to deal with an opponent
It’s not supposed to be reliable. It’s still a useful tool to have regardless you dumbfrick.
>It's still a useful tool to have regardless
You literally have better odds landing an OHKO move than to ever land a Freeze effect and you would be moronic little neanderthal not to run an OHKO move because of it with that mindset.
>You literally have better odds landing an OHKO move than to ever land a Freeze effect
how is this relevant
Bruh you are 7x as likely to land a fricking focus blast as you are to freeze with an ice type attack. Seemingly, you not only don't play the game, you also can't understand basic math
>Bruh you are 7x as likely to land a fricking focus blast as you are to freeze with an ice type attack
....yeah? and?
You seem like the kind of person whose retirement plans amount to winning the lottery
>how is this relevant
Freeze effect gimps a 'mon unless they are running some niche counter-freeze option or fire move that melts the ice.
OHKO just kills them and is a better option outright just from being a 30% chance compared to Freeze's 10%. OHKO can also be guaranteed in rarer circumstances, unlike Freeze.
Please stop being moronic.
>OHKO just kills them and is a better option outright
OHKO moves do nothing if the effect doesn't land.
Ice Beam still does significant damage if the effect doesn't land.
You're not very smart, are you?
>difference is one does damage, one doesn't
Sounds pretty broken if you ask me.
Makes sense why it never comes up and why people would prefer Frostbite over Freeze.
But then there's you complaining about muh lost identity.
>Sounds pretty broken if you ask me
No, because it only has a 10% chance of triggering.
>Makes sense why it never comes up
It does though. People have won by playing to a freezing wincon before. Play the game.
>To stall out the opponent?
Anon, burn is useful for general survivability, not just stall.
>Which Ice is fricking terrible at?
Why are you under the impression that a status effect has to come from a mon of that type? In fact, why are you assuming that a status effect has to come from a move of the same type when one of the best burn inflicting moves is fricking scald?
>Which isn’t needed for special attackers since they’re not even remotely as oppressive as physical attackers?
You're joking right? Some of the strongest attacks in the game are special moves as it is and they tend to have multiple effects, granted they usually come with a high risk as well but that's because of their power.
The reason why you think physical is "oppressive" is because it's usually the safer option that deals decent damage but also doesn't leave the player open.
>It’s still a useful tool to have regardless you dumbfrick.
How is it a useful tool if it isn't reliable?
Oppressive Special Attackers get banned from Smogon competitive.
Look at Flutter Mane and Chi-Yu.
Strong physical attackers are far more easily dealt with, so they're allowed to stick around.
And that is mostly because of Burn and Intimidate being widespread and available.
If you actually played the games you'd know this.
A strong special attacker is always more dangerous than a strong physical attacker, and the line between where a special attacker becomes too strong is far thinner. And it always has been.
> Oppressive Special Attackers get banned from Smogon competitive
Sorry I thought we were talking about Pokemon, not Finch’s fanfic game that has nothing to do with Pokemon.
Then look at VGC.
Where Fluttermane is so utterly dominant as a Special Attacker.
And where it is typically paired with Special Attacking versions of the Genies and Paradox Raikou.
Physical attackers are either utility picks like Incineroar, or literally only Ushifu. Ogerpon is still sitting on the post-DLC inflated usage stats, but might stick around.
VGC demonstrates better than anything that Special Attackers are stronger.
Play the game.
> Where Fluttermane is so utterly dominant as a Special Attacker.
Because of its uniquely overtuned stats? While virtually every other serious threat is a physical attacker? Yeah bro totally special needs a nerf because of this single Pokemon that would just kill you and tank hits with its giant Sp. Def before you even get your shitty pointless Frosbite status off.
If Fluttermane was weaker it'd be replaced with Chi-Yu or Iron Bundle, or whatever.
It is the best so it is used to the exclusion of other picks. But it fills the role of the dominant Special Attacker very well and demonstrates how much more powerful Special Attackers are compared to Physical Attackers.
There basically could never be a Physical Attacker that is as good as Flutter Mane, even with its stats swapped 1:1.
>If Fluttermane was weaker it'd be replaced with [completely different pokemon that don't even cover the same types and are dramatically weaker]
wow bro totally
>"Sure, this chainsaw only works a tenth of the time, but it's still a useful tool!"
Ice moves still do damage when the effect doesn’t go off. Dogshit analogy.
Ice's "identity" got "ruined" the moment Freeze became "Rarer Sleep"
Frick off with your nonsense.
There is no move in the game that randomly induces sleep like Ice moves do (until Dire Claw was added) and sleep doesn’t have a chance of incapacitating the opponent forever like freeze does.
Relic Song does, actually, but I think the big point is that there's no guaranteed move to freeze, but freeze is BS that should be removed from the game
Relic Song
>Ruins the special stat's identity in you'er path
>5 PP
Lawl
Fricking normie
normies are the ones who want moronic nonsensical changes like "hurrr special needs a burn equivalent"
Normies are the kind of people who would leave everything as is for the sake of nostalgia kinda like a 'no changes' gen one hack that glorifies bad balance and bugs and want no improvements at all in the game.
>normie
b2reddit
I love when people who have no fricking idea what they're talking about are smug
the lack of self-awareness in this post is funny
>ruins ice's identity
snow still exists, ice's identity doesn't hinge on a more unreliable version of sleep
>ruins the special stat's identity
it hasn't had an actual identity since they split the stats back in gen 2
>ice's identity doesn't hinge on a more unreliable version of sleep
Yes it does.
>it hasn't had an actual identity
Not true. Read the thread.
>it's not a fast sweeper therefore it's defensive
Wow you truly are fricking terrible at the game
>Yes it does.
You are a comically stupid human being, I hope you know that
>it's not a fast sweeper therefore it's defensive
You mean
>it's got low speed and higher than average defensive stats therefore it's defensive
To which I would reply with YES.
Incineroar proves me right.
>Yes it does.
then its identity is shit and should be replaced with something that isn't
>Not true. Read the thread.
im not going to read through 140 posts of you leaping through mental gymnastics trying to act like a minuscule mechanic is more important than it actually is
>special stat's identity
Man, you people will find literally anything to make a personality out of.
Why don’t you just ask for physical and special to just get merged into one stat?
>Did someone on /vp/ make as suggestion thread?
The answer is No and always No.
Your best bet is a smogon thread with people nitpicking moves.
Yes! So they can get real crazy with it and we actually start seeing worthwhile status chances for ice types!
It's so fricking lame. In a normal playthrough you are lucky to see the freeze status even once!
I for one think that a special-reducing counterpart to Burn is an overdue idea. I'm ambivalent about it replacing "frozen".
Special attackers already half to put with assault vest, snarl spam, worse coverage, far worse accuracy, and rarer set up moves. Physical only seems worse due to intimidate which can be mitigated by having needing intimate to only affect the foe directly in front.
>snarl spam
Breaking Swipe is on just as many mons and has the same effect, it just overlaps with Intimidate.
>worse coverage
Tons of Pokemon learn Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt as coverage, plus moves like Shadow Ball and Psychic with similarly wide distributions
>far worse accuracy
High power physical moves tend to lower your stats and cause recoil instead. Almost nothing gets that strong without a drawback.
>rarer set-up moves
Ever since Gen 8 everything under the sun learns Nasty Plot, and CM has always been more common than Bulk Up
>Breaking Swipe is on just as many mons and has the same effect, it just overlaps with Intimidate.
swipe has immunities and worse offensive typing
>Tons of Pokemon learn Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt as coverage, plus moves like Shadow Ball and Psychic with similarly wide distributions
still less widespread than punches
>High power physical moves tend to lower your stats and cause recoil instead.
at least they hit
>Ever since Gen 8 everything under the sun learns Nasty Plot,
not to swords dance's extent
frostbite should replace frz anyway
>frostbite should replace frz anyway
nope
no one runs the punches in 2024 dude, 75 is just way too low base power unless you're hitting a very specific niche
is there a single reason they havent buffed the elemental punches to 90
>still less widespread than punches
Some janny needs to ban this moron already.
>Boltbeam such a common distribution that it's called boltbeam
>shithead thinks it's rarer than the elemental punches
Nothing learns the punches.
What are you talking about? No one uses Snarl or Breaking Swipe. Doubles is not real Pokemon
>Doubles is not real Pokemon
Look at the smoggie, look at him and laugh
Doubles is just another gimmick format like contests or inverse battles. 6v6 singles is what Satoshi Tajiri intended for us to play.
I'm not bothering with the rest of your post since another anon already did but Moonblast, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Surf and Flamethrower are 5 of the best moves in the game and they all have perfect accuracy
Thunder, Hurricane, and Blizzard can have forced perfect accuracy
Shadow Ball is an amazing move with perfect accuracy
Power Gem and Earth Power are somewhat niche but the Pokemon that like using them REALLY like using them
EVERY Physical Attacker that gets Drain Punch or Leech Life would prefer Giga Drain
Sludge Bomb is better than Poison Jab and has 100% accuracy unlike Gunk Shot
Even Normal types get Boomburst, which is THE best Normal type attack
Most Physical Bug types are looking at U-Turn, and if they're lucky, Megahorn. Another inaccurate move, unlike Bug Buzz
Are you basing "Special Moves are inaccurate" solely off of Focus Blast and Fire Blast?
Someone cooked here
>Moonblast, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Surf and Flamethrower are 5 of the best moves in the game and they all have perfect accuracy
AS STAB moves. As coverage how many pokemon actually get them? Almost no non-Fairies gets Moonblast, not many non-Waters get Surf. Special Bolt/Beam coverage is rare enough and the only ones to get Bolt/Beam/Flamethrower are Pseudos, Legendaries, or KANTOOOO
>Thunder, Hurricane, and Blizzard can have forced perfect accuracy
Fair, but they requre a specific weather to work
>Shadow Ball is an amazing move with perfect accuracy
For STAB yes, but how many Pokemon actually get it as a coverage move
>Power Gem and Earth Power are somewhat niche but the Pokemon that like using them REALLY like using them
Yes for the pokemon that get them
>EVERY Physical Attacker that gets Drain Punch or Leech Life would prefer Giga Drain
What make Giga drain better?
>Sludge Bomb is better than Poison Jab and has 100% accuracy unlike Gunk Shot
Fair point, genuine oversight on my point. though in my defense poison is a lackluster coverage type at best
>Even Normal types get Boomburst, which is THE best Normal type attack
Too bad only 10 pokemon in the franchise get it and only 3 or so have the special attack to make use of it
>Most Physical Bug types are looking at U-Turn, and if they're lucky, Megahorn. Another inaccurate move, unlike Bug Buzz
U-Turn is one the best moves in the game, also X-scissor exists
>Are you basing "Special Moves are inaccurate" solely off of Focus Blast and Fire Blast?
Fighting is one of the most important coverage types, and Focus Blast is one few widely disturbed special move
That's the thing about special moves it doesn't matter how good they are if you don't have them. Only Game Freak's favorite special attackers are allowed to have nice things. Meanwhile most physical attackers are allowed to spam the most of the best physical moves, guaranteed to with, with minimal downside because the foe's already dead.
>U-Turn is one the best moves in the game
Maybe in your fanfic format, Finchinator.
>What makes Giga Drain better
Doesnt make contact and phyaical walls are much more common than special walls so it usually ends up doing more damage unless its coming from an Iron Fist or Guts pokemon
bruh, 90% of Water types get Ice Beam, most Dragons get Flamethrower, and tons of random mons get Thunderbolt. Shadow Ball, too, is very common coverage. Dazzling Gleam is very common among non-Fairies, making up for Moonblast.
Would you do me a solid and play the game before you post
Do you even play the fricking game? Damn what a morron
apply it to psychic type moves, and rename it "butthurt"
>butthurt
>when "mindbroken" is right there
i'm a little disappointed in you, anon
I think it would be good to balance out burn, it wpuld need a Will-o-wisp/Scald equivalent I suppose. But then Special would need a Guts equivalent and a Chill Orb and Physical would need an Assault Vest equivalent? Idk, don't let me balance
What about a physical defense boosting item that locks you into only using NON attacking moves
Idk call it frickin like "body armor" or something idk
Actually I think not copying assault vest and instead just making it boost defense at the cost of making speed lower would be fine, call it like "heavy armor" and boom there u go
>taunt
Nice item
A 100 percent chance status frostbiting move would be spammed all the time. Fire type nukes like Chandelure can rejoice in being immune to Frostbite, but you might get some frickers just Tera Firing their nukes to nullify an attempt to Frostbite them.
Aurora Veil should be banned honestly use Reflect and Light Screen you Icehomosexual shit.
Aurora Veil will NEVER leave.
you will never be a woman
I have a suggestion for a tiny tiny change to gameplay balance: what if we replaced everything with a better game?
What if we replaced you with a better poster?
Pokemon type charts makes no sense so giving Ice a random resistence is perfectly fine, how about a resistance to uhhh Ground one of the most spammed offensive types. Technically this is true because whenever our rock freezes over the completely dominates the surface so ice resisting ground is perfectly fine. Now we need another resistance how about Fairy because frick you and with that Ice should be defensively good resists Ice,Fairy and Ground.
>how about a resistance to uhhh Ground one of the most spammed offensive types
A resistance to something it's strong against is hardly random. Fire resists Grass, which resists Water, which resists Fire.
Yes but also no,
Freeze is good on paper, but it shit because the effect is non existant. Giving ice types +10% chance boost would be great and also heplped ice type. BUT Harsh sun should also prevent freezing and ANY fire move should thaw it out.
They fricked up statuses anyway
>(confusion was way better before 30% nerf)
there is still no poison + confuse move given to most bug and grass types.(IMO it should have been Glooms or Venomoth signature move)
>Burn is usefull but not as damage dealer but hindering physical. Its ok idea that I wish it was expanded upon, like sun should DOUBLE the gradual damage.
I have a better sugestion- Make freeze nullify healing and DROP BOTH Defences when frozen.
Freeze sucks, but there must be a better idea than just making it a clone of Burn.
>Freeze sucks
no it doesn't
It doesn't suck in a usefulness sense, but it sucks to be afflicted by. It just takes one of your Pokemon out of the game.
it do tho
it’s the most potent status effect in the game and part of what makes ice so threatening offensively. Seethe harder.
Make it lower Sp.Def. There is currently no status that lowers defensive stats. There are a lot of annoying defensive walls out there. Now you have a unique status condition that helps you break walls. If you're worried about making special attackers OP, just change my suggestion to some kind of variation, like a lesser reduction to both defenses; the point is, a status that helps breaks walls is more interesting than cloning Burn, and is not something we have.
freeze is both extremely devastating and extremely inconsistent. it's in that unfortunate middle ground where it's both unfun to use and unfun to fight.
> it's both unfun to use
Speak for yourself, campaignshitter.
Someone is shitting on ice types in another thread, are you going to let that stand?
These threads are proof that /vp/ is unmoderated.
inb4 the catalog is flooded
Hey Sheen
The problem with it is that it has to be different than Paralysis reducing speed and Burn reducing attack.
Maybe make Frostbite reduce both defenses?
Maybe just keep Freeze instead of changing the game for no reason?
Make Freeze a Soak effect. Replaces your type with Ice but you're weak to Ice + no snow boost. Last 3-5 turns, but it can't expire under Snow.
This effectively reduces damage by taking away STAB and defensively cripples. Freeze is now very impactful without taking complete control away.
This isn’t the same schizoanon as the other thread, right? This is just a completely different dude obsessively arguing against Frostbite, right?
I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same.
I'm kinda getting similar vibes
the guy who gies nuts if you say ice is the worst type? i think so, because he seems to be insisting ice is an offensive type like that guy always does, even though it only works like that in theory when in reality the vast majority of existing ice types are slow and defensive, not fricking glass cannons
>it’s another moron who thinks avalugg is every ice type
>Lapras
>Cloyster
>Dewgong
>Articuno
>Glalie
>Abomasnow
>Glaceon
>Rotom-Frost
>Vanilluxe
>Beartic
>Kyurem at least when compared to its counterparts
>Aurorus
>Crabominable
>Alolan-Sandslash
>Mr. Rime
>Frosmoth
>Arctovish
>Glastrier
>Hisuian-Avalugg
>Cetitan
>proceeds to list a bunch of ice types that aren't defensive at all because he's a moron who sees "big defense stat" and thinks that means you're supposed to play the pokemon defensively
every time
try telling a smoggie that Cloyster is a defensive Pokemon and they'll probably laugh at you like the moron you are.
They're all slow and bulky. The type doesn't determine how a Pokemon plays after Gen 3. The stats do. No one is running 252 Speed and 252 Special Attack on Abomasnow or Aurorus.
yep, definitely the same guy
Willing to bet you that the person you replied to would vehemently rage if you suggested even a minor a buff for any of the Pokemon you listed that doesn't involve their typings.
You have to be a fricking moron to think ice is the worst type in the game when bug exists
Bug is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be. It's a solid middle of the pack defensive typing with really helpful resistances. Offensively it's trash, but it also has U-turn, one of the most used moves in the game.
This, of course, means it isn't so hot in Doubles where defensive typing isn't as important as offensive typing, but in Singles, Bug is better than Rock and Ice, and arguably Normal after Return and Frustration got removed.
>It's a solid middle of the pack defensive typing
it's a dogshit defensive typing. All of its weaknesses are horrendously bad and it has no offense or utility to make up for it.
>B-BUT U-TURN
barely relevant outside of fanfic garbage
>B-BUT IT'S GOOD IN FANFIC
you mean the meta where everyone runs Stealth Rock and needs to switch 50 bajillion times every game?
>it's a dogshit defensive typing. All of its weaknesses are horrendously bad and it has no offense or utility to make up for it.
Rock and Flying are relatively uncommon in Singles, and Fire is rare as a coverage type meaning you can typically avoid the matchup entirely by clicking U-turn on the Fire type. Meanwhile Ground and Fighting are 2 of the top 5 most common attacking types in singles (1. Ground, 2. Dark, 3. Fighting, 4. Bug, 5. Water). Bug also enjoys its Grass resistance since that lets it handle Rillaboom, Lilligant, and so on.
>you mean the meta where everyone runs Stealth Rock and needs to switch 50 bajillion times every game?
You mean the meta where everyone uses Heavy Duty Boots? And yeah, U-turn is part of the switching meta. It's the only unblockable switch move. That's what makes it so common. Even Pokemon with access to Volt Switch prefer to use U-turn, like Zapdos and Thundurus-T.
>y-you can just run away from the Ogerpon Hearthflame that's in almost every game while you do literally nothing with your dogshit offenses!
wow what a great type
Ogerpon-H has 0% usage outside of Ubers.
>b-bug is good just ban everything that shits on it
fanfic garbage isn't relevant
>scizor being able to outspeed ogerpon
you're not very smart, are you?
>scizor being able to outspeed ogerpon
It outspeeds with Choice Scarf and some speed investment. You also don't need to outspeed. Predict the switch, use Follow Me, or hit it with Fake Out. Sure, it's a little more difficult to use, but it still offers you strong rewards. Pheromosa is brutal in singles because Fake Out is far less common. It's manageable in Doubles, but Pheromosa is still outspeeding and OHKO'ing Ogerpon. If Game Freak ever decided to make a fast and powerful Bug type without paper thin defenses, Grass types would eat massive shit in Doubles.
>252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 219-258 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ogerpon is eating massive shit from U-turn. Even at the low end, it's left with 25% health remaining putting it in range for a weak hit from a faster Pokemon to kill it. With a favorable damage roll, one Fake Out is dropping it.
>It's the only unblockable switch move
Flip turn is also unblockable
Wait I forgot about Storm Drain and Water Absorb, nevermind
Storm Drain, Water Absorb, and Dry Skin.
Bug is almost entirely limited by intentional design decisions by gamefreak. Be it stat distributions, movepools, the strength of bug moves, etc. Were bug type to be treated as more than an early game type, it would be extremely solid.
TL;DR, bug isn't inherently bad, GF makes it bad, whereas ice is pretty inherently bad. I say that as someone fond of both types and the mons with them
I don't really consider the viability of the Pokemon in a type when considering its merits, and vice versa. I didn't think Gen 5 Dragon was OP because of Garchomp and Latios existing, since Dragon was a pretty mediocre type on its own.
Bugs, on average, have more meta irrelevant Pokemon, but there are some very meta relevant Bug types out there. More than Ice, in fact. Ice has a higher percentage of viable Pokemon than Bug because it's the least common type in the game, but Bug is very much viable due to its intrinsic merits.
>Bugs, on average, have more meta irrelevant Pokemon
Not to be a prickass, but can you elaborate? I can only really think of volcarona off the top of my head, and volcarona is a notable exception to the design philosophy thing I was talking about
Irrelevant is the opposite of relevant.
But also, Bug has
>Pheromosa
>Buzzwole
>Heracross (even without mega)
>Scolipede
>Shedinja
>Genesect
>Kleavor
>Scizor
and if we also count megas, Mega Pinsir and Mega Beedrill are also very respectable.
Oh okay, I was mainly thinking of Gen 9.
Even then, including scyther because of eviolite, there are 48 fully evolved bug types, and combining your list with volcarona, that gives roughly 20% viable bug types. I would hardly describe that as a significant proportion, and that's me even deferring to your definition of viable.
Again, I like bug, it's probably my favorite type, my overall point was that gamefreak deliberately designs them mostly to be early game mons
I'm not saying Bug is a type filled to the brim with excellent Pokemon, I'm saying that it has a lot of Pokemon with some excellent Pokemon shining through. The overall percentage of viable Bugs is pretty low, but Bug is one of the most populous types in the game. Water also has a pretty low % of viable Pokemon because it's the #1 most common type and the good Waters are keeping their brothers down.
Bugs are way more viable in Singles than in Doubles because of their unique properties. Lokix and Ribombee are really good in Singles, for example.
Oh I see what you mean, I think we're agreeing but I was talking past you a bit. My bad
It's no problem. I'm also speaking up Bugs as if I don't want them to get a buff too. I think if Game Freak inversed the Bug and Fairy dynamic that Bug would shoot up to being a solid mid tier type and the game would be way healthier for it. Sure, Gardevoir, Tapu Lele, and Mr. Mime will suddenly eat massive shit from U-turn, but Fairy needs the nerf and Bug needs the buff.
Yeah, I wasn't saying bug is bad, rather that it is limited more by design philosophy than inherent issues. That's why I contrasted it with ice
Bug could definitely use more Pokemon with high stats. Most of the Bug types with 500+ BST are good. They're all also dual type since Bug needs a secondary type to bypass its awful offensive profile.
Bug is honestly a great secondary typing in a lot of instances. A ground resistance is nothing to sneeze at
Ground AND Fighting resistances are both huge defensive boons, and Flying being treated like Bug (loads of Pokemon, few strong ones) means that Bug is often the more prominent of the two. That also helps Bug since that makes one of its weaknesses an uncommon attacking type while Flying is also weak to Ice and Electric.
A lot of weaker Bug types could actually be pretty viable with a stat buff. Forretress has 465 BST, but with a +50 BST buff it would be meta relevant again. Galvantula was already meta relevant before it got outclassed by Ribombee, but even a buff from 472 BST to 492 (assuming +10 to SpA and Speed) would make it a monster. A small +10 Speed boost to Heracross would make it viable again too. Crustle, Escavalier, Durant, and Armaldo are all also salvageable Pokemon.
>Ground AND Fighting
Frick you're right I forgot about fighting. Yeah, bug synergizes well with more types than it doesn't. I hope someday we get a bug pseudo-legend, like maybe an antlion or something
>like maybe an antlion or something
It'll have to be a different bug because the Trapinch line already covers that particular insect.
Lol 2 seconds before you replied I realized flygon was exactly that minus the stats. I'm not sure what IRL bugs would make a cool pseudo, at least those that haven't been used yet. Part of it is that conceptually, in spite of how many species of "bugs", (anything creepy crawly, not necessarily literal insects), there are, they overlap pretty heavily. Just look at how many species of beetles there are
Looking at your image, I'm almost envisioning a mon like brundlefly 2. I like the fly sequel a lot, and I think it suffers from being a sequel
I unironically use "the fly 2 syndrome" as a term to describe media properties that suffer due to their association to others. Another good example is Prometheus
>I'm not sure what IRL bugs would make a cool pseudo
What about this one?
Well, as I mentioned, even though there are something like tens of millions of species of bugs, in colloquial terms, there are fairly few varieties, so it'd be difficult to find a new variant of bug to adapt. There are literally 350000 species of beetles alone. It's just hard to find a unique take on them
Yeah, bugs are wild in that regard. My main point isn't that there aren't enough species, just that at least in english, there aren't that many "kinds" of bugs to pull from
>There are literally 350000 species of beetles alone. It's just hard to find a unique take on them
You don't necessarily have to just make beetle but monster. You could do a lot with beetles. You could have a Bug/Ghost beetle wrestler with detached arms similar to Hoopa-U. You could do a beetle lamia that has a beetle larva as its lower half, or just a straight up Bug/Dragon beetle lamia.
Or, hell, you could do a Bug psuedo-legendary that's like Wishiwashi where it's actually a hivemind comprised of a bunch of tiny bugs that form a massive monster. You could make it Bug/Psychic since it'd be the Psychic hivemind controlling the whole being, or Bug/Dark like how Spiritomb is an amalgam of spirits and is Ghost/Dark.
>Or, hell, you could do a Bug psuedo-legendary that's like Wishiwashi where it's actually a hivemind comprised of a bunch of tiny bugs that form a massive monster.
That is actually something that's not been capitalized on. You could easily take a eusocial insect like a Hymenoptrae or termite and do something like that. I might be crazy but I think durant is our only ant mon, and it hardly evokes the colonial nature of ants
The closest Bug Pokemon we have to eusociality is Vespiquen, and even then, Vespiquen is just 1 big bug commanding a bunch of smaller ones. You don't even need an ant/bee/termite to be a eusocial Bug since this is Pokemon and not real life. You could make it out of beetles or butterflies or even mantises if you really wanted to.
>Just look at how many species of beetles there are
Beetles account for 22% of all identified species on Earth. Insects altogether make up over half.
Make a Bug/Dragon chimeric abomination. Or you could make it look something like Bug God from One Punch Man
bug and ice are objectively the worst types and U-Turn is only useful because it's broken and it's better used by literally any other type
And Bug types get STAB on U-turn. Bug type Landorus-T would be busted.
i am convinced that u-turn is the only reason fairy resists bug
It 100% is. That's not even debatable. Fairy was designed specifically as a meta adjusting type.
Nope. GF just wants Bug to be shit. If GF cared about nerfing U-Turn they would just drop its BP.
gamefreak used to VERY rarely change shit like that.
??? They adjusted move BP all the time even back in Gen 5.
Why is it that every time I poke my head back into /vp/, there's some new insane guy? This didn't happen with other gens, and yet this gen has Digimon Are Weaker guy, Digest Cynthia voregay, the entire Imagination Schizo vs Time Delusion thing, and now this
The frick did GameFreak do, find a way to intensify autism?
>This didn't happen with other gens
Gen 7 and the owlgay
I like it but I don't like conceding anything to midwits who think every single type should have the exact same access to the same general pool of moves (e.g. people demanding physical electric-type moves be as good as any other type) and the idea of "burn, but for special attack" feels like a concession along the same lines. So I don't know whether I'd be okay with it or not
>I like it but i still want the game to be bad
I wish gamefreak dicksuckers were ground up into meat paste
>types having unique identities instead of bland shitty reskins of each other means the game is bad!! please daddy game freak I don’t want to actually get better at the game make everythibng easy for my moron brain to process!
>unique identities are when some things are objectively worse than others
slit your wrists
it sure doesn’t feel objectively worse when I freeze the opponent’s urshifu and win while you continue shitting your pants and being bad at the game
fricking moron
>NOOOOOOOO ALL POKEMON OF A TYPE SHOULD PLAY THE SAME
Autism.
>he thinks cloyster and ninetales and mamoswine and glastrier and articuno play the same
stop being a moron
Special attackers are reliable but have lower power while physical attackers are higher power but have way more risk. It’s not difficult to notice if you play the game.
>Special attackers are reliable but have lower power while physical attackers are higher power but have way more risk.
Wrong for Steel type (the high risk option is special)
Wrong for Electric type (the physical options are just worse in every way so you can't make a serious risk/reward comparison)
Wrong for Grass type (options are all over the place and generally equivalent with each other, the strongest and "riskiest" attack is special)
Wrong for Fire type (same as Grass but with a slightier special slant)
Wrong for Flying type (special options are generally less reliable due to accuracy, even the medium power ones)
Wrong for Fairy type (strongest physical option has medium power but is slightly inaccurate, essentially the same situation as Electric but less awful. Doesn't have moves with serious drawbacks like recoil, stat drops or really low accuracy in general if you don't count Mythical signatures)
Wrong for Fighting type (main special option is not reliable)
Wrong for Psychic type (same story as Fairy).
Half-wrong for Dragon type (its strong physical options are riskier however the strongest option they have is special)
Only really technically true for Water, Ice because their whole gamut in practice is fairly equivalent, worth noting that Water didn't have a high risk physical option until this gen.
This "dichotomy" only exists in your head, if Game Freak ever followed it at some point they haven't done that since gen 4 at the very least. I have a hunch you are the split-troony.
Who knew that the people who preach to others to "play the game" are projecting?
>Wrong for Steel type
Nope. The best option for special is Flash Cannon. Meteor Mash is stronger, Iron Head has a more broken second effect, and Bullet Punch has priority.
>Wrong for Electric type
Nope. Bolt Beak and Aura Wheel have 110+ power for zero drawback except the fact that they're physical.
>Wrong for Grass type
Nope. Wood Hammer and Power Whip have 120 power while Energy Ball/Giga Drain are more reliable but have less power. Leaf Storm is initially stronger but becomes weaker after literally just 1 turn. Then you have the absurdly strong signature moves like Flower Trick/Ivy Cudgel which have literally no drawbacks except for the fact that they're physical.
>Wrong for Fire type
Nope. Flare Blitz and Pyro Ball have 120 power while Flamethrower/Fire Blast are both weaker.
>Wrong for Flying type
Nope. Brave Bird has 120 power and Acrobatics has 110 power while Air Slash has way shittier damage and even Hurricane only matches Acrobatics in power.
>Wrong for Fighting type
Nope. Cross Chop, Focus Punch, Close Combat, and HJK have extreme power for high risk while Aura Sphere is extremely reliable but way weaker.
>Half-wrong for Dragon type
Nope. Outrage and Glaive Rush are stronger than Dragon Pulse and Draco Meteor if the Pokemon wants to stay in for more than 1 turn in exchange for way more risk.
You conveniently ignored Bug (Megahorn > Bug Buzz), Poison (Gunk Shot > Sludge Bomb), Ghost (Poltergeist and Shadow Bone > Shadow Ball), Rock (Stone Edge and Rock Slide > Power Gem), Ground (Earthquake and Headlong Rush > Earth Power). Notice how in all those examples the special moves have 100% accuracy while the physical moves are either inaccurate, have some condition to even work, get crippled easily, or are a signature move. Interesting huh?
Play the game.
Who knew that the people who preach for shitty balance changes don't play the game?
>The best option for special is Flash Cannon
Are you unaware that Steel Beam exists or something?
Are you unaware Steel Beam can only be used once without killing yourself or something?
>You know you're defeating your own argument by saying physical is safer, right?
No, because it isn't safer. Burn and Intimidate neuters every physical move. You aight schizo?
>The highest damage special move, which is also the highest damage steel move in general, is steel beam
Highest damage != best option. >= 2 turns Iron Head does more damage.
>you outright say that Leaf Storm is a high power, high risk move
Except that isn't what I said. Leaf Storm isn't risky at all. You KNOW it's going to drop your own attack when you use it, so it isn't a risk. Its power is lower on average for literally anything more than 1 turn. Meaning it's less risky, but lower power. It's not like Close Combat (a move that actually does have risk) because it isn't reliant on your opponent exploiting your own stat drop to immediately kill you. You're not very smart, are you?
>Oh and don't act like focus blast and zap cannon aren't a thing either.
Don't act like Aura Sphere and Thunderbolt aren't a thing either.
>Your argument is all over the place
Not really.
>Highest damage != best option
You're not looking for the best option though, you're looking for highest damage and those are all special moves with risks associated with them, that's the whole point here.
You know you're defeating your own argument by saying physical is safer, right? Your whole point was that it was high risk, high reward but here you are highlighting the lower risk for ones you know of seeing as you don't seem to know what moves exist.
Take this one for example
>The best option for special is Flash Cannon
The highest damage special move, which is also the highest damage steel move in general, is steel beam. A 140 BP, 95 accuracy move that deals heavy recoil.
But then there's also this
>Leaf Storm is initially stronger but becomes weaker after literally just 1 turn
Where you outright say that Leaf Storm is a high power, high risk move but act like you still have an argument not to mention you forgot that Overheat existed here
>Flare Blitz and Pyro Ball have 120 power while Flamethrower/Fire Blast are both weaker.
Which is just fire leaf storm
Oh and don't act like focus blast and zap cannon aren't a thing either.
Your argument is all over the place because you're so obsessed with being right that you don't even know what you're arguing about anymore.
>main special option is not reliable
Aura Sphere has perfect accuracy.
Imagine thinking of aura sphere at the mention of special fighting type moves
I’m sorry you don’t play the game.
honestly the fact that freeze is basically a death sentence is why it should be axed. Replace it with frostbite or not, freeze itself is cancer.
Frostbite doesn't work like being poisoned, it's basically a wound unless you get gangrene or you continue to be exposed to low temperatures. It makes sense for poison which can continuously deteriorate the victim but not for a one time wound. Hail damage makes better sense even if they made the damage being cause by the cold and not the physical hail.
>In frostbite, body tissues become frozen, and permanent damage may happen if the affected area is not treated promptly. Amputation of a body part may be needed in the most severe cases. Most commonly, affected body parts include the nose, ears, fingers, toes, cheeks, and chin.
>Frostbite isnt a big deal bro
That has nothing to do with what I said. You're talking about severity I'm talking about mechanics. Learn to read.
The only people against this are austists afraid of change.
Or rock and bug types fans afraid their types will be "worst type" in the game now.
>The only people against this are austists afraid of change
No, it's just people who understand how the game works and don't want it homogenized to cater to the same moronic campaigntards who start having a meltdown the second they try playing a game without the phys/spec split
Congrats you're one of the few people in this thread who isn't a moron
Rock Type shouldnt exist just fuse both into the Earth Type already
I think the abundance of high power physical attackers is the result of burn being able to shut them down hard, balancing out their existence with effective counter play. I think if they added frostbite to the mainline games, I think we’d see more busted Sp Atk mons on par with something like Urshifu or Ogrepon or the entire archetype of mon would get nerfed too hard. They already have bulky Assault Vest mons to deal with.
They could always itemcut the assault vest.
I wouldn’t go that far. One of the reasons why Burn is so valuable in the current (VGC) meta is because there’s so many high power mons that don’t have much drawback clicking powerful moves. You have mons like Dragonite with 134 base Atk that can learn a +2 priority 80 base power move with 100 accuracy and immediate boost it with Tera, Choice Band, or a Chien Pao partner (or all of them). Or Rapid Strike Urshifu with Unseen Fist ignoring Protect and a move that can ignore defense buffs and be boosted by Rain on top of a Mystic Water or Band (Chien Pao is also a good partner here too) Outside of restricted mons, Sp Atk mons don’t have many comparable paths to powerful without caveats outside of Flutter Mane, which is pretty much on every team because of it. I think you’d have to buff more non restricted Sp Atk mons to the same levels as the previously mentioned mons with moves and abilities before such a hard counter like Frostbite would be warranted in the mainline series.
Yes, Frostbite is objectively better than Freeze since it’s less RNG dependant.
Special and physical are meant to be balanced out by physical having more risk/reward (and by extension having better moves but more ways to neutralise them) but we’re seeing this dichotomy slowly turn from “different” to “same but different” so Frostbite would help even this out a little bit.
It would also give Ice-types a unique defensive profile where they are nominally the worst defensive type in the game but have a way to boost their defence (snow), their sp. defence by proxy (frostbite), and both (Aurora Veil). So their identity goes from “great offensively awful defensively” to “great offensively with conditional defence”.
>it’s objectively better because it makes the game worse
what did schizo mean by this
All the muh identity gays ITT are moronic, they can't even decide is the "special attacker identity" is "moderate power, reliable attacks" or "high power inaccurate attacks". The whole discussion is cherrypicking certain moves or mons anyway.
For fricks sakes can't there be one single thread about Ice without there being fricktards spewing diarrhea out of their asses for once?
What the frick is wrong with Freeze being replaced with Frostbite? You homosexuals will scream, growl, and hiss over any damn thing involving Ice even if the topic isn't about competitive, type chart, or the Pokemon. You b***hes are big bucky smug cuckass tards that are absolute gays on both sides of the homosexualry. Does this post come across as immature? I don't care because I'm not the big bad buck who has their anus destroyed at the sight of Frostbite being mentioned as a replacement for Freeze.
> What the frick is wrong with Freeze being replaced with Frostbite?
1. Waters down Ice’s specialty of excelling at offense by removing the chance of completely shutting down the opponent simply by attacking them for a shitty burn clone that wouldn’t help it all the vast majority of the time since Ice types care more about removing threats, not slowly tickling them.
2. Nerfs special attackers for literally no reason when they’re not even as good as physical attackers 99% of the time despite the game still having half a dozen deterrents for physical attackers.
i.e. play the game
Ice moves having a 10% chance of nuking the opponent is aids, Pokemon doesn't need MORE bs RNG, it has plenty of that.
your fault by not taking advantage of ice’s bajillion weaknesses and killing it before it attacks you.
Wowzers.
>play the game
The more you preach that the less likely I'll do.
Because it's literally just a burn clone and homogenizes the nature of the attack/sp. attack dichotomy. homosexual.
PLAcucks are mentally challenged.
brb making a thread that only has "ice.
It'll be a social experiment.
I hate Freeze. I once got stuck in Frozen status for 8 turns straight and it sucked ass. It's an unreliable fricking status infliction.
I'd much rather have Frostbite. And we need an ability that is a special equivalent of Intimidate where it drops the Special Attack stat. Maybe retool Unnerve to do that instead and then make a new ability to replace old Unnerve
Would actually be better. Sleep already takes care of rendering the opponent unable to move.
The 10% chance of a mon being freezed by ice beam is funny but frustrating. Finally being able to weaken special attackers would be neat.
>Sleep already takes care of rendering the opponent unable to move.
please tell me how I sleep and damage the opponent simultaneously
>Finally being able to weaken special attackers would be neat
why? because you don't play the game and don't realize assault vest and light screen exist?
>please tell me how I sleep and damage the opponent simultaneously
dire claw
rocky helmet breloom
>please tell me how I sleep and damage the opponent simultaneously
By using Dire Claw or Relic Song.
I wonder why phys/specsplitgays even bother asking for these moronic changes. They should just cut the shit and simply ask for physical and special to be fused into one stat. It's clearly what they want.
freeze and sleep should break after a hit. Freeze should also change your type to ice the whole time and reduce damage by 2 while active.Sleep whould effectiveley heal you by 33% whenever ou receive it.
With all those changes, sleep still fricks in doubles, so uh..
nobody gives a frick about doubles
Every status effect should have an "active" variant and a "passive" variant. So as an example: "Frostbite is active, and Frozen is passive" and "Drowsy is active, Sleep is passive", etc etc. Passive effects basically stop a Pokemon outright or come very close, active status effects do damage or inhibit a Pokemon heavily without outright stopping them and usually tank a stat. We could also toss stuff like Infatuation (or confusion) into the active category and make Toxic its own status. The fact that Pokemon has stuck to the 4 basic status effects for so long despite adding more and just not considering them full blown statuses is ridiculous.
More status effects means more strategy to the way battles work, there's literally no reason to oppose it. Also, let multiple status effects stack.
>there should be a special version of burn
>there should be a special version of intimidate
>there should be more physical rock moves with 100% accuracy
>they should make more special rock moves
>they should make more physical electric moves
>they should give ice more resistances
>I can't play any game without the phys/spec split
>me don't want to think about game me just want to click buttons
I want both.
Making my way on Ganker when I come across a thread
morons everywhere
(whoop whoop)
morons everywhere
(whoop whoop)
Whoop whoop it's OP, a homosexual who touches himself to animal porn
(whoop whoop)
GameFreak got PTSD from gen 1 freeze and decided to make it almost useless going forward
the only problem with ice type Pokemon is they're always slow as frick. You're dead before you can even set up trick room
>Burn (Fire) halves your Atk
>Paralysis (Electeic) halves your Speed
>Freeze (Ice) does nothing for your stats
Replacing Freeze with Frostbite is the only logical conclusion just like replacing Hail with Snow was.
People seem to forget that ice/fire/electric are in a way a trio of types
>EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE EQUAL BECAUSE OF MY PATTERNhomosexualRY AUTISM I DONT ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT PLAYING THE GAME
no one cares
At first, I believed replacing Freeze with Frostbite was logical, as Freeze has so little chance of landing and the options to cure it are wasted otherwise.
After reading the thread, I believed that Frostbite should be added in addition to Freeze.
And now, I believe that Frostbite should replace Freeze again, just to watch you suffer.
So how is Snow boosting the defense of Ice type Pokemon doing for you? Kinda like how Sandstorm boosts the Special Defense for Rock type Pokemon, you know.
And it's such a massive shame that EVERY Pokemon of those two types have access to that, dex cut or not.
I'd bet Dewgong getting Freeze-Dry would inflict even more suffering upon him since it would fit his pattern boogeyman but this time with every Ice type Pokemon having said move.
Except that Burn causes damage over time and Paralysis prevents you from doing something 1/4th of the time.
What Frostbite could do is something like halve the effectiveness of items, namely Berries, while halving SpA. It doesn’t have to just be Burn but for SpA and Ice types.
Since fire loses offense and Electric lowers speed, Freeze should lower a defense, like
suggested. it would even play into the Ice=Glass cannon thing.
Freeze does lower defense because the opponent becomes completely helpless to do anything while you keep attacking it.
Burn also lowers defense because the physical attacker affected by it is helpless while you set-up. So Burn is still over-tuned compared to freeze.
>Burn also lowers defense
Woah how does it lower Flutter Mane's defense?
>Anon, burn is useful for general survivability
You know what's even more useful for general survivability? Freezing the opponent and removing them as a threat completely.
>Why are you under the impression that a status effect has to come from a mon of that type?
Why are you under the impression that making Ice a redundant copy of Fire is a good idea?
>You're joking right? Some of the strongest attacks in the game are special moves
Read the thread.
>How is it a useful tool if it isn't reliable?
Hmm how is having a 10% chance to win useful over having a 0% chance to win?
>What Frostbite could do is something like [worse Freeze]
No thanks.
>>What Frostbite could do is something like [worse Freeze]
Well duh if you’re talking from a “what it does to your opponent” perspective.
But otherwise it’s better for gameplay by a mile. Instead of just a really rare chance to have your opponent not do anything for X amount of random turns, it’s now actually interesting to use and can have status moves inflicting it so it’s not just regulated to 10% chance on certain Ice moves.
>it’s now actually interesting to use
You made it less interesting to use because you just added a shitty Burn clone instead of something unique. If I want to Burn the opponent I'll just use a Burn move.
currently freeze is just a sleep clone so even following your moronic "logic" you're fricking wrong
>currently freeze is just a sleep clone
Sleep isn't commonly attached to moves that also do damage.
>Yeah, if it had, I don't know... Reliability?
It doesn't need reliability. Burning with Flamethrower or Fire Blast isn't reliable either.
>you were thoroughly schooled in pokemon for not knowing what the most powerful moves in the game were
Read the thread.
> flash cannon being the best steel type move.
It is the best special Steel type move. Best != Most BP, morono.
>You're not a battle tower AI and that 10% doesn't mean that you'll get it once every 10 hits
That's not the point. If I have a wincon to win with freeze that's still better than freeze not even existing at all. Play the game.
>Play the game.
You first moron
>Burning with Flamethrower or Fire Blast isn't reliable either.
Hence why no one uses them for burns? Scald has a 30% chance to burn and Will o wisp has 85% accuracy, both can be learned by a wide variety of pokemon. Not to mention Gouging Fire has Blazing Bulwark that burns on contact. What point do you think you're making here? Burn has far more reliability than freeze. Will o wisp's chance to miss is 15%, that less than freeze's 10% to proc.
>Read the thread.
You're STILL being schooled in pokemon by me.
>It is the best special Steel type move.
It's not, Steel Beam is. And before you cry about "muh recoil" take a page out of yugioh's book and remember that as long as you have one point left you haven't lost. HP is a resource.
>If I have a wincon to win with freeze that's still better than freeze not even existing at all.
That's the problem, you DON'T have a win condition with freeze. There's no reliability and unlike something like sleep there's a ton of ways to get around it.
You sound like someone I could beat with my in game team.
Your mistake is trying to argue with him as if he actually understands the game
Truth is I just can't get to sleep and I'm trying to pass the time
Arguing with morons is literally a fool's errand though. Just insult them and laugh at them, don't waste your bandwidth on explaining why they're moronic. If they were able to be that self aware they wouldn't be moronic to begin with
Laughing got boring ages ago. It's more fun seeing them get more and more desperate.
I mean look at this
Almost all of his responses are just him going "I'm right, I'm right, I'm right!"
>Hence why no one uses them for burns?
You don't need to use them for burns to benefit from the effect.
>You're STILL being schooled in pokemon by me
Is that why all your posts are wrong.
>It's not, Steel Beam is
Read the thread.
>B-BUT OTHER GAME
We're talking about Pokemon.
>That's the problem, you DON'T have a win condition with freeze
I can have a win condition with freeze. Let's say I'm fighting the opponent and we're both down to our last Pokemon. My last Pokemon is faster and has Ice Beam and Moonblast. Their last Pokemon takes more damage from Moonblast, but it still won't KO. If they attack me once with any move then I lose.
Do I
A. Click Moonblast like a moron because it does more damage?
or
B. Click Ice Beam, try for the 10% Freeze proc, then hit them repeatedly to KO them while they're frozen?
I'm sure if you're not fricking terrible at the game you will realize which is the better choice.
>I can have a win condition with freeze. Let's say I'm fighting the opponent and we're both down to our last Pokemon. My last Pokemon is faster and has Ice Beam and Moonblast. Their last Pokemon takes more damage from Moonblast, but it still won't KO. If they attack me once with any move then I lose.
>
>Do I
>A. Click Moonblast like a moron because it does more damage?
>or
>B. Click Ice Beam, try for the 10% Freeze proc, then hit them repeatedly to KO them while they're frozen?
>
>I'm sure if you're not fricking terrible at the game you will realize which is the better choice.
I mean at that point you might as well fish for a moonblast crit, it's on the same order of likelihood as the freeze
>A. Click Moonblast like a moron because it does more damage?
>or
>B. Click Ice Beam, try for the 10% Freeze proc, then hit them repeatedly to KO them while they're frozen?
>moonblast
>85 bp
>30% sp def reduction
>Ice beam
>90bp
>10% chance for freeze
Moonblast is unironically a better choice, you'll be doing more damage if you get the 3x more likely sp def reduction.
>he thinks moonblast lowers special def
>he thinks lowering special def would matter if the opponent can kill you on the same turn
This is the IQ of campaignshitters who think Frostbite being in the game is a good idea.
>being this pedantic in spite of everything else levied at you
I love how you keep throwing out campaignshitter as an insult when you've demonstrated a grasp of game knowledge that leads me to believe you struggle in the campaign
>campaignshitters
Aren't you the one relying on a strategy that would only work in the campaign?
I sincerely believe that he doesn't actually understand elementary statistics, let alone pokemon
>in this hyperspecific scenario freeze may incidentally be better, (it arguably isn't, but I don't understand the game so I don't realize that), therefore I am correct and totally smart
God DAMN you are dumb
>Freezing the opponent and removing them as a threat completely.
Yeah, if it had, I don't know... Reliability?
The freeze chance is so low that it's not worth using when burning can allow you to tank an extra hit or two depending on the pokemon.
>Why are you under the impression that making Ice a redundant copy of Fire is a good idea?
Redundant? What status effect cuts special attack currently?
>Read the thread.
I did, you were thoroughly schooled in pokemon for not knowing what the most powerful moves in the game were making dumbass claims like flash cannon being the best steel type move.
>Hmm how is having a 10% chance to win useful over having a 0% chance to win?
You're not a battle tower AI and that 10% doesn't mean that you'll get it once every 10 hits, not to mention all fire type moves, a very common attacking type, will thaw the user.
It's completely unreliable.
Hell if you really wanted to lock your opponent out of your turn your best strategy would be to abuse flinch with something that has Serene Grace because most flinch moves start at 30% and are doubled to 60 with it.
Allow me to put this into perspective by the way, most flinch moves have a 30% chance to activate. All ice type moves have 10% which is doubled to 20 work serene grace.
Flinch is INHERENTLY more reliable than freeze will ever be.
>10% doesn't mean that you'll get it once every 10 hits
I guarantee he will argue with you about this point and even when you break out the math he'll tell you that you're wrong
Oh I know, the guy is terminally moronic after all.
To be fair, most people can't grasp that expectation values and odds only hold in infinite trials, but, given his attitude, he'll be a triple Black person about it
inb4 Frostbite returns in gen 10 and this spurg is btfo for eternity
>239 posts and no one has given an actual reason for how the game benefits from frostbite existing
amazing lmao
frostbite only made sense in PLA because that game effectively treated physical and special offenses as the same stat and virtually every mechanic in the game affects both. In the regular games adding frostbite makes no fricking sense.
>no one has given an actual reason for how the game benefits from frostbite existing
Damn it would be a shame if anyone could actually read the thread to confirm what you're saying
Point out a single post that gives a reason how the game would improve from Frostbite existing, anon. Go on, do it.
Almost every single (You) you've received ITT probably qualifies
why can't burn just lower attack AND special attack?
>burn is now essentially a permanent parting shot
Do you really want that?
>he ran out of arguments so now he's resorting to greentexting and reaction image
pretty sad tbh
Arguments would be wasted on you, you are literally too stupid to qualify as a human being
I've seen this moron briefly in other threads, I'm christianing him frosted homosexual
Physical moves tend to be stronger than their special counterparts because they can be gimped by shit like burn. While freeze is homosexual as hell, replacing it with frostbite would just nerf special for no reason or result in more hard hitting special moves and those are aids.
>or result in more hard hitting special moves
Anon, the strongest moves in the game already skew towards special
>Surging Strikes is physical
>Ivy Cudgel is physical
>Grassy Glide is physical
>Rock Slide is physical
>Flare Blitz is physical
>Wood Hammer is physical
>Extreme Speed is physical
>Order Up is physical
>Wave Crash is physical
>Earthquake is physical
yeah bro totally
>Surging Strikes is physical
Hydro Cannon is a 150 BP water move not to mention the utility of moves like Scald/Steam Eruption
>>Ivy Cudgel is physical
Frenzy Plant and Leaf Storm, Syrup Bomb also kills the speed stat of anything hit by it.
Glide is physical
See above.
>>Rock Slide is physical
That's one. Good job.
Blitz is physical
Blast Burn, Blue Flare, Eruption, Burn Up, all special and out damage Flare Blitz
>>Wood Hammer is physical
That's still grass and doesn't match the previously mentioned ones.
Speed is physical
And Hyper Beam is special, as is Blood Moon, Boomburst and Judgement. Extreme Speed isn't used for its power but rather it's priority.
Up is physical
And Draco Meteor is Special, it also doesn't require being in a double battle to be useful. Then you have moves like Core Enforcer and Dragon Energy. Fickle beam also has a 30% chance to become a 160 BP move.
>>Wave Crash is physical
That's Water we've already been over Water.
is physical
Landorus was given Sandsear Storm in PLA, a 100 BP special move with a 20% chance to burn that targets all opponents and not your own pokemon. It's literally a better earthquake the only problem is that it's exclusive to Landorus.
You don't really know what you're talking about, do you.
>he’s using fricking bp as a measurement of how good a move is
holy shit you are a moron
Anon, you're literally the only one using BP as a measure of usefulness. If that anon was he wouldn't have mentioned Scald and Syrup Bomb.
> Anon, you're literally the only one using BP as a measure of usefulnes
Said the moron who’s trying to cite Hydro Cannon as a more powerful move than Surging Strikes. Yeah, totally, dumbfrick.
Glide is physical
It wasn't good before it was nerfed
I would prefer frostbite as a separate condition to freeze. Like we can have a will-o-wisp for frostbite, but let's keep having the ability to make pokemon unable to do anything for many turns.
Freeze is bad game design, frostbite would be much better
If you're worried about special being nerfed too much simply don't distribute whatever the frostbite equivalent of Scald and WoW to non-Ice types like candy (so don't pull a burn)
If you're worried about Ice-type being nerfed because there is no more 10% chance of a random FRICK YOU just give them an extra resistance in exchange
>Freeze is bad game design
no, what’s bad game design is mindlessly making special equivalents of everything like a fricking moron and destroying the point of physical and special even being separate stats to begin with.
even if you don't want frostbite, freeze is just dogshit design all around
No it isn’t.
Okay.
>physicalkeks when arceus uses hyperbeam because its the strongets move there is
>10% chance to inflict 0.5x special attack gimps special attackers too much!!!
>10% chance of special attackers being instakilled (current freeze) doesn't gimp them
Yeah Frostbite is good change they should also make a new ability called Soul stare that lowers special attack jus like intimidate.
changing freeze to frostbite is a good idea, but i'd prefer if it wasn't just burn but for sp.atk and it was made a bit more unique. i really liked the change from hail to snow, hail just sucked