Would Johto have been good if they had scrapped the idea of a Kanto postgame and used the freed-up space to enhance Johto itself instead? It would have the bonus of solving the problem of Johtomons being trapped in Kanto. The region could have felt less like West Kanto and more like a proper standalone region.
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>Would Johto have been good
Its already good
It's not good when you have Johto pokemon trapped in another region. It's not good when a major selling point of your region is "hey guys you can visit KANTOOOOOO"
>It's not good when you have Johto pokemon trapped in another region.
It doesn't matter if it's another region because it's not another game. And the game never calls slugma etc. Johto pokémon, they're just newly discovered pokémon (at least GSC didn't).
>It's not good when a major selling point of your region is "hey guys you can visit KANTOOOOOO"
A region doesn't need selling points because you're not buying a region, you're buying a game. Imaginary problem.
They weren't selling a region, they were selling a game. All of the new Pokemon can be ontained in the gen 2 games.
Kanto was never a selling point for the game, it was never advertised whatsoever. I don't even think it was present for HGSS marketing.
No one said shit like this in 2010. The negative perception of Johto and especially of the Kanto postgame is entirely artificial and exists largely among zoomers born after Pokemania.
You are embarrassing yourself. Kanto was never a selling point. Neither was Johto, for that matter. People bought GS because it was Pokemon 2.
Region obsession is entirely a zoomer thing. No one cared when GS came out. As you said the hype was because it was Pokemon 2.
It failed to live up to the hype considering pokemania died shortly after G/S released and was fully dead by the time Crystal released.
The fad was going to fade regardless. Every fad does you moronic zoomer.
The fad was going strong through the main games and multiple spinoffs right until Johto came around and people got to play those games. To this day you can visit /vr/ and read genwunners talk about how Johto killed their love for the series.
>fads DO last forever actually
Dumb zoomer
Who are you quoting?
Pokemania died earlier than it would have otherwise thanks to Johto being so weak. Both the main games and the anime were bad. People who played them on release even admit it.
Dumb zoomer
coping millennial
historical revisionism
https://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/comparisons/03_johto/ep148.html
>https://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/comparisons/03_johto/ep148.html
That aired in 2001 though?
You claimed that nobody even knew what filler was in early 2000, here's someone watching the Japanese episodes in 2000 (hence the use of Japanese names- they weren't localised yet) and calling the episodes filler.
I wasn't that anon. I just asked that because I didn't quite see what you were getting at, sorry.
>someone watching the Japanese episodes in 2000
So not representative of the literal schoolchildren who were the driving force behind Pokemania, then.
He doesn't call them filler though? And he was watching the episode in 2002. To compare the dub and the original.
>He doesn't call them filler though?
nta but he does in the "Thoughts" section
So he does.
Still, it's not exactly the kind of filler Orange Islands were. They're still Johto stuff. And this talk was about Orange Island.
Anon is a zoomer who thinks that the other anon was saying "nobody anywhere knew what filler was" and not "filler was a concept that was only really understood by hardcore weebs."
Western television is structured differently than Japanese television so filler as a phenomenon was only known to people who watched a lot of anime, and the average 6-year-old in 2000 had probably never even heard the word anime before.
He does call it filler, but who cares since Dogasu was already in his 20s at the time. No 8-12 year knew what filler was. Also the episode didn’t air till 2001 in west. In January 2000, we had just started the OI arc. We were upset about Brock leaving.
Take a look at and realize these are the people who think Johto is bad: zoomers who were born after Pokemania.
Look at the date moron. Johto didn’t start in the west till November 2000.
The fad was starting to fade in early 2000. Even before GS came out late that year in the west. Hell, a lot of my friends had checked out before the games came out. Gen 2 didn’t kill anything, the bubble was bound burst at some point.
>The fad was starting to fade in early 2000.
Because the anime was nothing but fillershit. Then the games finally came out and were mediocre and that was what finally put it to rest.
No one was saying the Orange island was filler shit, which was what was airing in early 2000. We didn’t even know what filler was.
>Negative perception of Johto exists largely among people young enough not to be blinded by nostalgia
All of the arguments against Johto being good come down to "it isn't a soft reboot like all subsequent regions were." If you can't see why that is a non-argument, you may be underage.
Nah, it's not my favorite, but I don't mind Johto. I just thought what you posted (and I green texted) was really fricking moronic, and that you might have have the problem of Peter Pan syndrome.
My point is that complaints about Johto are almost entirely based on it not being like other regions. It could only happen because zoomers don't understand that the design philosophy was different and no one expected it to be a reboot.
Your argument boils down to "it was made that way therefore it must be good" which is just as much of a non-argument.
Have you also maybe considered that just people pointing out flaws in the game doesn't automatically mean they're bad games?
"Houndour is in Kanto" isn't a flaw.
"The gym leaders use too many Kanto pokemon" isn't a flaw.
"The level curve is kind of jank" IS a flaw, and I've already acknowledged it as such, even though I personally don't think it's bad.
Do you see the difference between pointing out actual issues and just complaining that the game isn't a reboot?
>"Houndour is in Kanto" isn't a flaw.
yes it is
>game set in unova uses things from unova
this is fine.
if you took the plot and characters of BW2, but set it in kalos, then you would get something akin to GSC.
>regionhomosexualry
Cringe.
>>game set in unova uses things from unova
>this is fine.
So you agree GSC is fine because it's set in Kanto, right?
stop being stupid on purpose
>y-you're stupid that's why I can't actually refute your argument
Arbitrary distinction. BW2 are set in the other side of Unova which was postgame in the first game.
These are hardly the only flaws that are really brought up however.
The Gym progression is weird even within Johto (Partially caused by the open-endedness after Ecruteak), like why do we go to a 2 Pokemon Leader at this point of the game at all?
Then, Kanto is built in a way that isn't very satisfying to play. Now, this was done for a reason, that is, the Leaders in Kanto are all weaker than the E4/Champion because that makes sense (Except Blue), but the issue is that it's not very fun in terms of gameplay itself.
And yes, I would consider these separate from the actual level curve.
I don't disagree with these criticisms. In fact, even at 6 years old I remember being disappointed by the weak wild pokemon in Kanto, even though it "made sense." I think that was probably Tajiri's Aspergers flaring up and telling him to overthink trivial shit.
It's not what OP is talking about, though.
Probably not. I was talking in more general sense. So I guess in the end we pretty much agree on GSC, which is a nice change of pace.
>Then, Kanto is built in a way that isn't very satisfying to play.
I don't agree personally. The rest is fine though.
Only zoomzooms are this mindbroken by Kanto.
Also play the fricking game, homosexual. Only like 4 gen 2 mons are Kanto-only.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "JOHTO POKEMON" YOU ZOOMER FRICK
THE GAME CALLS THEM "NEWLY DISCOVERED POKEMON." GEN 3 WAS THE ONE THAT STARTED THE CONCEPT OF REGIONS HAVING UNIQUE POKEMON.
WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR YOU UNDERAGED moronS TO UNDERSTAND?
I UNDERSTAND WHY THEY DID IT BUT IT'S STILL A BAD IDEA
HAVING A REASON FOR SOMETHING DOES NOT EXCUSE ITS SHITTINESS
It's not a bad idea. At the time, it was completely reasonable that some of the new pokemon should only be available in the postgame. The only real problem is that they picked a couple of absolute shitmons, so there's no reason to put either one on your team that late.
>It's not a bad idea.
it is. i want to use the new pokemon but the game never gives me time to. kanto is over in a few hours and Mt. Silver is the last dungeon in the game.
there's a reason nobody ever uses heatmor.
>I may as well argue BW is bad because too many gen 5 Pokemon are in the game.
people say this all the time
you can still use the mons if you really want to, I remember going to kanto and catching a snorlax and using it in the battle against red
Yeah but there's almost nothing to use them on, pokemon back then didn't exactly have very many side games and side quests. The closest at the time was the battle tower and that was crystal exclusive.
>Yeah but there's almost nothing to use them on
8 gyms
the battle against red
Oh wow, it's 20 minutes of content.
Keep in mind that some of these post game mons like Larvitar and Sneasel can't be found until you beat the gyms and gain access to Mt. Silver.
Even GF knew putting Sneasel there was a mistake because they changed it to Ice Path in Crystal.
It's not helped that due to GS's ridiculous level curve there's just this point where leveling up anything becomes needlessly tedious.
Tired of this npc meme. Pokemon games arent balanced around you needing to be par on levels with your opponant.
>ridiculous level curve
when it is described like this specifically, I automatically ignore the post.
You can immediately tell the person is an underage NPC.
This post reeks of projection.
>n-no u
grow up
>it was completely reasonable that some of the new pokemon should only be available in the postgame
See, the problem here is that you're seeing it as a pokemon only player and not a monster tamer fan.
The whole point of a monster tamer is obtaining the monsters and going on a journey with them yeah? So why would you leave them to a point when the journey is over?
Every other series doesn't do that, they parade the new monsters front and center because they're the selling point and if you have a good one it's usually behind some kind of long training or fusion route, for pokemon this is usually an optional area of some kind like the Bagon room in RSE. You need to explore an optional area to get to it. GSC could have done something similar with optional areas like Mt. Mortar or the Dark cave but it didn't.
Not to mention with GSC this is long before Genwunners were a thing so there was no reason to parade Kanto mon over Johto mon. In fact that's all the more reason to show off NEW monsters because Gen 1 mon have all been seen before.
You haven't actually explained how it's a bad idea beyond "I don't like these pokemon"
I may as well argue BW is bad because too many gen 5 Pokemon are in the game. It would be equally as valid as your argument.
Where's the proof?
Where is the proof that there was? The games dont call em such and you find a good deal in Kanto.
Gen 2 mons have never been Johto exclusive.
these are literally arbitrary criteria to be good
>Johto pokemon
There's no such thing. They're NEWLY DISCOVERED pokemon, the idea of Pokemon being unique to a specific region wasn't a thing until Gen 3 and even then, Hoenn has tons of 'Kanto' and 'Johto' Pokemon
>it's not good to be able to visit previous regions
Why
>There's no such thing. They're NEWLY DISCOVERED pokemon
newly discovered pokemon that you can't use until the last 5th of the game
stop being so literal and pedantic sometime. you might understand what people are actually sayin, and why your arguments are falling on deaf ears.
>newly discovered pokemon that you can't use until the last 5th of the game
So there shouldn't be new pokemon towards the end of a game? That's fricking moronic, imagine if you had an entire region whose back half was all sea routes full of filler water pokes you'd already seen or something.
Johto's distribution is kind of crappy because a lot of the early pokes are dogshit and some of the most desirable pokes aren't available until way too late, but that's a multi-layered problem having to do with learnsets, distribution, level curve and individual Poke designs. It's not as simple as "durr Johto bad cuz second map"
>imagine if you had an entire region whose back half was all sea routes full of filler water pokes you'd already seen or something
Oh you mean like that one game that was vastly superior because it was like the last 2% of the game?
>the last 2%
I love Hoenn but stop coping anon
Anon, there's literally four major stops at that point. Mossdeep, Sootopolis, Seafloor Cavern and the pokemon league
You're probably on water for a total of five minutes.
I hate Hoenn and can admit that water was always a complaint for piss babies.
>You're probably on water for a total of five minutes.
Holy fricking cope batman.
Maybe if you play the game with serebii or bulbapedia open and perfect foreknowledge of everything in the entire game as is the tradition now this is true.
Right, right...
I, the person who actually referenced the game to prove a point, should play the game.
Not the braindead hoenngay who doesn't know shit about his own game.
It's honestly surprising that people still make such a big deal out of the water in Hoenn considering how much of it is optional.
Not to mention it already had one of the fastest surf speeds meaning it didn't last very long.
>It's honestly surprising that people still make such a big deal out of the water in Hoenn considering how much of it is optional.
>Not to mention it already had one of the fastest surf speeds meaning it didn't last very long.
because hoenn critics are abominably dimwitted and conflate the terrible encounter table with the map design
>So there shouldn't be new pokemon towards the end of a game?
that comes back to "is kanto postgame or part of the campaign", and johto fans can't even agree on that
but yeah, having new pokemon at the very end of the game where it's impossible to train them because of how low-level everything is is generally a bad idea. there's a reason nobody ever uses heatmor.
and the recycled encounters on hoenn's water routes are one factor in the larger problem of them being monotonous and uninteresting. i think putting unique encounters there wouldn't even do that much to improve them.
johot was already good.
going back to kanto was kino. you had to be there.
it also acts as a sequel and was supposed to be the final games so a callback makes sense.
Yes. As it stands, Johto is an underwhelming and boring region carried by the fact that the gutted Kanto exists. They could have put that energy into making at least one decent region instead.
no one replays GSC/HGSS and thinks
"HURRY UP I NEED TO GET TO KANTO"
> They could have put that energy into making at least one decent region instead.
It's pretty clear they ran out of time after they restarted development. So no, they couldn't put that energy anywhere. It was either Kanto or nothing at all.
Kanto is not post-game, the game ends at Red.
Red is a postgame superboss. The game ends the first time the credits roll, which is after the E4.
The second credits roll cancels out the first.
Red is the true ending.
We've gone over this several times. The game ends at Red.
Some games use credits rolls to bookend a chapter rather than the whole game. Add in the fact that Johto very intentionally has a low level cap and it's obvious that beating the E4 alone is not the same as beating the game.
moronic take... Kanto wasn't even gonna be in if Iwata didnt work his magic on the game to give em space for Kanto.
>The game was in development and at some point certain things weren't gonna be in so it doesn't count
Next you're gonna tell me about how the games were supposed to encompass most of Japan, with Kanto just being one town and therefore Johto doesn't even exist.
....not what i was gonna say but where is the inconsistency or issue, schizo?
Region reboot homosexualry wasnt a thing yet, zoomie. I grew up with Gen 3 and even I understand this.
Back then the pokemon league was the world league.
And this has nothing to do with the fact that the game doesn't end at the League, because that kind of standard didn't exist yet, as you should well understand.
The presedent exists because ots whar was set by the previous game and the main goal of thr game you are given from the start is the Pokemon League challenge. Thr player has no reason to think youll go back to Kanto. Youre just bias by the fact tou have hindsight that I and others did not.
No, it's the other way around. There's no reason to assume the game ends there because prior to this, there was only one set of games that followed the same story with minor alterations.
There is no pattern for the second entry.
I was around when the games came out, and I never gave a single thought at the game allegedly ending at the League. Because it didn't.
In fact, the game makes a point about you finally arriving in Kanto as you're headed to the League. It has several things pointing towards the fact that yes, Kanto is a thing. And so it is.
the fricking credits roll dude. that's not a pokemon series pattern that hadn't been established yet, that's an everything ever pattern.
There were plenty of games that rolled the credits before the game ended, so no.
name some
Pokemon.
>G/S/C didn't even have a postgame
Damn, why were they so lazy before R/S/E? They had a shitton of money to put in development after genwun.
Name 5 games in the '90s with a legitimate postgame.
Lunar: Eternal Blue
Star Ocean: The Second Story
EarthBound
Spyro 2
Valkyrie Profile
>incoming moved goalposts
>Earthbound
>Post game
What? Are referring to the ending where you can walk around and talk to NPCs? It does happen prior to the credits though...
Sorry to disappoint you, there's no goalposts moved here.
Good.
Technically Crystal was the first mainline game with meaningful post-game actually, since that was the debut of Battle Tower
It's accessible before you beat Red so it's not post-game.
no and the concepts of regions is cancerous
No, the way how Kanto and Johto are interconnected is great, unique and full of SOVL.
How is it great? Johto is just a pimple on Kanto's arse. It doesn't even feel like its own full-fledged region.
You have no idea what you're talking about, zoomer.
It's so bad that Johto leaders mostly use Kantomons. It doesn't even have its own E4.
You are continuing to demonstrate that you have no idea what you're talking about. The current Pokemon design philosophy started with RSE, which was a soft reboot. Every generation since then has also been a soft reboot. Johto, however, was a sequel.
Nice headcanon. If Johto wasn't meant to be its own region then it wouldn't have its own dex.
It doesn't.
GSC had the New Pokedex. Nothing about it implies Johto.
>it's not a Johto pokedex, it just so happens to start with the Johto starters
holy cope
If this isn't bait, you might actually be moronic.
Zoomzoom
Reminder that these are the same people who got Finessed the frick out if by some nobody in X-ter into believing Whitney didn’t use a miltank. They might genuinely be moronic.
Not even worth a (you), fricking idiot
>It's not Johto's own pokedex if it isn't literally called "Johto Pokedex"
Utter cope. It was always a regionaldex, it functions the literal exact same as every other one in the series including having its own national dex unlock.
There's no upgrade in GSC.
It's actually a national dex with an alternative order, which is why it contains a bunch of Pokemon that aren't even available in GSC.
Why would the Johto Dex have Pokemon in it you can only get from the previous gen?
There wasn't a Johto dex until HGSS. GSC just had a new pokedex order, which was presented as an alternative that existed alongside the old order (what we now call the National Dex).
So, thanks for admitting you were born after Pokemania and don't know what you're talking about.
>Every generation since then has also been a soft reboot. Johto, however, was a sequel.
and it was a shit sequel
>and it was a shit sequel
In what way?
shoved aside the new to rehash the old
>The Empire Strikes Back is a shit sequel because it shoved aside Yoda and Lando to rehash Luke, Han, Leia, and Vader
So you think just about every sequel ever is shit, got it.
So you agree BW2 is shit because 95% of the game is rehashing BW1, right?
You're just parroting shitty arguments shitposters use.
Gen 2 were the first continuation of the series, as such, they still didn't have a set formula. New pokemon were rarer than the old ones, because that was a way to explain why they didn't get discovered yet.
After a while they settled into a new way to introduce new pokemon.
>You're just parroting shitty arguments shitposters use.
you think everyone who criticizes johto is a shitposter
Considering they parrot the same talking points, yeah. I'm sure you've seen that bait image comparing gym levels, or the ones with a dungeon on one side and a legendary encounter on the other.
Gen 2 was a direct sequel, they even had Oak go into Johto to see the new pokemon. Back then the games treated the new gen as being brand new, instead of existing just on another region.
>Considering they parrot the same talking points, yeah.
they're not "parroting the same talking points" these are issues people have with the game and there's never any attempt to rebuke them beyond deflection, accusations of being a shitposter, or copes about how it isn't really a problem.
i can understand why game designers made the decisions they made and still think they're bad ideas that make the game worse.
>there's never any attempt to rebuke them beyond deflection
I just rebuked your "too many Kanto mons" argument and you ignored and deflected.
You really don't think someone has rebuked those bait images before? They've been proven to be bait with thin argument, yet they continue to be posted regardless for the sake of baiting people. That's a shitposter.
Then there's people like you who see that bait and actually think the shitposter was serious. Being sheep, they adopt the bait, thinking it's real, and start using shitty arguments.
>I just rebuked your "too many Kanto mons" argument and you ignored and deflected.
no, you did the classic johto cope of "actually this isn't a problem because they MEANT to do it!"
i can understand why game devs did something while still thinking it's a bad idea that makes the game worse.
johto is not perfect, and your frantic coping won't make it so.
Why, exactly? It added a lot, like the day/night cycle, breeding, held items, special stat split, genders, shinies, two brand-new types, 100 additional Pokémon while most of the 151 earlier ones returned (and the ones that didn't could still be traded in), a plot that follows the evens of RGBY, etc. All these seem like things a good sequel to the original Pocket Monsters would introduce.
Kanto isn't post-game.
>enhance Johto itself instead
people always say this and then don't even have any ideas for how exactly johto should be "enhanced"
Some of the most common complaints about Johto might have been fixed by Kanto not being included. Every Johto pokemon would be found in Johto, the level curve might not have been fricked by trying to accommodate another region, it could have had its own league instead of rehashing Kanto's, Johto could have been a larger region in general with more stuff to do/find in it. Basically, the freed up space could have been put to better use regarding Johto itself instead of giving us a stripped-down attempt at Kanto.
None of those are real problems apart from the level curve, which has been vastly over-exaggerated by pchal to support his personal hateboner for GSC.
You're literally just listing a bunch of imaginary issues that no one had at the time.
The """level curve""" has nothing to do with Kanto. It's because the game isn't linear as frick like the later gens are.
>Every Johto pokemon would be found in Johto
So instead of finding Johto Pokemon in the game...you find them in the game? Literally what difference does it make?
>it could have had its own league instead of rehashing Kanto's,
So instead of rehashing Kanto's it should have...rehashed Kanto's except nonsensically have it in a different location for no reason? How does this improve anything?
>Johto could have been a larger region in general with more stuff to do/find in it.
How is this any different than having two regions with more stuff to do and find in them?
>could have been put to better use regarding Johto itself instead of giving us a stripped-down attempt at Kanto.
Yet you can't actually elaborate on how specifically the game would be better.
To be fair - the "every Johto Pokemon would be found in Johto" is a good point
There's only a handful of them but in particular I would have loved Houndour to join me - like maybe he should have been included in areas where you found Growlithe/Vulpix but you found them at night instead
The problen with your logic is you are under thr impression Gamefreak designed GSC like they do RSE onward when they didn't.
The games are the eay they are because they were designed as sequels, not because of Kanto being in.
Level curve would still be the same because what causes it is the Ecruteak split, not Kanto existing.
Gamefreak designed G/S/C to be a pure cashgrab.
>"I see. Most Pokemon in Gold & Silver were of the cute variety, but this time…”
>Sugimori: “Indeed, there were a lot of kiddy designs, and some fans were starting to say Pokemon had become too babyish, so one theme for Ruby & Sapphire was returning to the coolness of monsters.
>“In your previous interview at the time of Gold & Silver (February 2000 issue), you said when you were designing Pokemon, you had to consider merchandising, and that created some constraints.”
>Sugimori: “Rather than constraints, I’d say we were careful about a lot of things. Like we’d say ‘if we don’t make a Pokemon this way, they’ll be difficult to animate in the TV show.’ We didn’t really think about those kinds of things this time, which might be bad for the anime staff and independent artists.”
discord post
Since when was Sugimori a Discord poster?
This doesn't say what you claim at all
The pokemon actually being designed from the ground up to sell merch for the first time is damning. Combine that with the fact that Gold and Silver shied away from innovation and instead settled on leaning on an identity as a Kanto sequel and you have yourself a cashgrab.
Not what they said. They said the existence of the anime made it so they had to consider how it would incorporate into it when designing them.
They said that the pokemon in Gold and Silver were designed with merchandise in mind, and the fans back then said pokemon "had become too babyish" as a result. It was a complete shift in design philosophy, which is why Sugimori admits that "one theme for Ruby & Sapphire was returning to the coolness of monsters"
No. You're teisting what was said to spin a narrative. They said they took into account the anime and external media.
>No. You're teisting what was said to spin a narrative.
Nope. Let's examine the post:
>They said that the pokemon in Gold and Silver were designed with merchandise in mind
This is confirmed by :
>“In your previous interview at the time of Gold & Silver (February 2000 issue), you said when you were designing Pokemon, you had to consider merchandising, and that created some constraints.”
The post claims:
>and the fans back then said pokemon "had become too babyish" as a result.
This is confirmed by:
>Sugimori: “Indeed, there were a lot of kiddy designs, and some fans were starting to say Pokemon had become too babyish
The post ends with:
>It was a complete shift in design philosophy, which is why Sugimori admits that "one theme for Ruby & Sapphire was returning to the coolness of monsters"
Which references a direct quote from Sugimori.
Nothing in that post twisted or spun anything.
And then they elaborate about the anime. You're cutting out context.
What exactly about the mention of the anime discounts anything that was said by that post?
Your claim os that the pokemon were made just for merchandizing
This is false. It's just them saying they had to take into account multiple outside factors when making em.
>Your claim os that the pokemon were made just for merchandizing
There's your problem, I never made that claim.
>There's your problem, I never made that claim.
You said they were made just to be cash grabs. Don't play word games with me
No word games, you're just stuck insisting on your own inference.
You're a b***h backpedalling and nothing more. Frick yourself.
Now you've lost control of your emotions after utterly failing to prove your point. You lose, feel free to stop posting anytime.
>Y-you lose!
Tell me you're underage withut telling me you're underage.
Don't reply to discord posts.
Johto doesn't need to be enhanced, it's denser than Kanto. It DOES have less area on a tile-per-tile basis than Kanto in RBY did though I believe, though not by much. Some routes could've been expanded, but it isn't a lacking region.
Are the babbies on here obsessed with Johto again after seeing that HGSS is still commonly being ranked higher than Emerald?
This is the only fanbase I'm aware of that actively hates continuity and the games making use of all its older creatures and would rather have 150+ designs shat out every three years for the end of time.
in that case why bother making new pokemon at all?
They shouldn't until the game's dungeons, puzzles, and overworld become more complex and better highlight Pokemon in their habitats.Some new Pokemon are okay to introduce new species or explore concepts in previous mons, but they should be added with care.
I don't care about Dexit, but at least in Gen 8 it didn't do what it was promised.
>dexit is bad because I can't transfer stantler
>wtf why are there stantler in this game, where are the new pokémon
>This is the only fanbase I'm aware of that actively hates continuity and the games making use of all its older creatures
Oh no, as a digimon fan i would love is they made more new monsters instead of just shitting out lazy recolors when they need to pad out a game compendium.
I mean, so we really need Agumon Hakaze and Omegamon Zwart when we have Agumon and Omegamon?
Hell you even have Variants of these digimon that do more than just change the color like Alter B and they rarely make it into games.
Making new monsters if new designs need to be made anyways =/ Agumon should never ever be in a new game again and they should keep making expies of him forever
>Continuity is overrated when it results in through new Gen2 being treated as optional filler in their own game while GenWun and KANTOOOOOO steal the spotlight
They both share the spotlight. The Johto Pokemon are inherently valuable due to the swarms and trade evolution requirement, while the two region's connectivity makes them more interesting and is why GSC/HGSS are some of, if not the most beloved games in the series
>Ditching continuity resulted in Gen5 Pokémon being rewarded with constantly shilling and have surviving powercrept better than anytime else.
Game Freak's preference and bias towards the Gen 5 dex is why they were powercrept and are still being kept around today. Paldea has even more powercreep than anything before it and it has to share its games with 8 other generations
>the dex being bloated with worthless baby pokemon
They shouldn't be worthless, that's the fault of the game design of what came after. Baby Pokemon like Budew in Gen 4 and Magby/Elekid in BW2 show how these are supposed to be implemented into the game.
>Gen 2 starter hate
The Johto starters are just not generally liked relative to the game's popularity, similar to Gen 5. You can't blame the audience for not being receptive to these designs.
>GSC/HGSS are some of, if not the most beloved games in the series
Not really true anymore as people who played those games when they were kids age out of the fanbase. Recent polls have D/P/Pt and BW/2 at the top while the Johto games are slipping in popularity, general discourse across pokemon communities is that Johto is deeply flawed and propped up for decades by nostalgia.
BW2 lol
https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2020/07/red_and_green_voted_most_popular_pokemon_games_in_japanese_poll
>XY is the second highest
bros...I thought you told me XY was unpopular.....
That was just cope by Unovagays.
NTA but for what it's worth, TV Asashi had a poll with a much larger sample size, it polled 50,000 Japanese people for their top 100 video games of all time, among lots of other titles Pokemon games are ranked as follows:
>11. Pokemon Diamond and Pearl
>14. Pokemon Sword and Shield
>24. Pokemon Red and Green
>26. Pokemon Black and White
>36. Pokemon Gold and Silver
>50. Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire
>60. Pokemon Black 2 and White 2
>64. Pokemon HeartGold and SoulSilver
>68. Pokemon X and Y
>99. Pokemon Platinum
Third versions didn't fare too well (they really should have lumped them together) but Black and White came decently far ahead of Gold and Silver and Black and White 2 came ahead of Heart Gold and Soul Silver
Full list: https://gamerant.com/top-100-best-video-games-japan/
> Baby Pokemon like Budew in Gen 4 and Magby/Elekid in BW2 show how these are supposed to be implemented into the game
It doesn’t matter if game freak stumbled on a way to make some baby Pokémon worth a damn. They had no purpose in GS since you had to back breed them from the evolved form and Crystal barely fixed the with the Odd Egg. Gen 2 only had 100 dex slots, weaker versions of Gen1 Pokémon should not have been a priority when, many Gen2 has more important thing that should have been added, like evolutions for the weaker Gen2 Pokémon like Yanma.
> The Johto starters are just not generally liked relative to the game's popularity
Fans of of the Johto games tend to like the Johto starters. Even the critique against Meganium’ almost entirely due to grass being a lame offensive type, especially in Johto.
> You can't blame the audience for not being receptive to these designs
I’m not blaming the audience, I’m blaming game freak for refusing to buff them while every other gets buffed to the stratosphere.
> similar to Gen 5
Johto starters mog the frick out of Gen5 in terms of popularity (though that says more about how mucn Gen5 make peope seethe more). Almost the hate for Johto starters would go way if they weren’t shitmons. gen5 starts are hated because “quadreped swordsman” and “fat pig”.
Baby pokemon were like that because pokemon was still collectible focused back then.
Nothing wrong about that.
>grass being a lame offensive type, especially in Johto.
don't you battle against a fair amount of water types?
Was mainly referring to the gym leaders
Flying
Bug
Ghost (where every single Pokémon is also Poison)
Steel
Dragon
It’s not too terrible since Steel has low SpD and both the Steel and Dragon aces are neutral to Grass but the idea of grass being bad in Johto exists for a reason
Digimon families are great
War Greymon, X-Antibody, Victory Greymon, Shine Greymon, Kaiser Greymon, BlitzGreymon…Very different philosophies of design from different eras.
I don’t mind stuff like this personally, especially for a roster past the 1000s
Related families are fine but it's just the recolors that irk me.
still love black war though even if his kit had shitty leg joints I ended up kitbashing to fix
> This is the only fanbase I'm aware of that actively hates continuity and the games making use of all its older creatures
Continuity is overrated when it results in through new Gen2 being treated as optional filler in their own game while GenWun and KANTOOOOOO steal the spotlight
>would rather have 150+ designs shat out every three years for the end of time.
Ditching continuity resulted in Gen5 Pokémon being rewarded with constantly shilling and have surviving powercrept better than anytime else. Meanwhile Gen2 respected continuity was was “rewarded” with: the dex being bloated with worthless baby pokemon, Typhlosion being banned from getting coverage and being stuck as a CHARIZARD clone, H. Typhlosion getting a Frisk in an open meta, and Meganium being a punchline instead of a instead of pokemon. And all the started being skipped over for megas when gen1 and 3 got them
Gen 5 is literally the least popular dex. It flopped so badly, they ended up shilling Lucario and Eevee again at the end of it’s run.
>Gen 5 is literally the least popular dex
I'd argue gen 2 is. Not many people care for gen 2's dex and even back in the day a handful of mon were just so rare or forgettable that they had a bigger impact in gen 3 like Skarmory.
No. It is objectively Gen 5. None of its dex placed in the top 20 in the 2020 Pokemon of the year poll and the region also got the least amount of votes.
No, Gen 2 Pokemon just get mistaken for other Gen mons
That's not its dex being seen as shit. Gen 2s dex is seen as exotic given the myriad of ways you had to go out of your way to get most of them especially in gen 3.
Gen 2 pokemon also appeared in the anime prominently even before gen 2 came out so many were seen as special and rare, and movies featured them in abway that made em seem ethereal.
Quagsire no-selling Pikachus Thunderbolt is still iconic.
>given the myriad of ways you had to go out of your way to get most of them especially in gen 3.
Myriad of ways? You're letting that zoomer bias get to you.
NTA but they’re right. RSE has mostly Hoeen pokemkn and FRLG had only Kanto Pokémon until the post game. Many Johto Pokémon were essentially kidnapped by Cipher and trapped in Orre
I think you misunderstood.
>zoomer bias
I grew up with the original anime and everything. i just didn't play the games until Gen 3 FRLG. I was around for the first and second movies et all.
During gen 3, Gen 2 Pokemon were exotic because there was no access to a dedicated Gen 2 game and every one of them was basically a raremon hidden amongst the sea of main entries and spinoffs which gave em a mystique on top of them being slowly sprinkled into the anime rather than all abruptly with the introduction of a new generation like every other gen.
They felt like hidden raremons rather than just a new batch of slop introduced for the new generation.
It played no small part in me loving Gold version when i went backwards and played it.
>Ditching continuity resulted in Gen5 Pokémon being rewarded with constantly shilling
Gen 5 mons are among thr most overlooked.
>and have surviving powercrept better than anytime else.
That has jack to do with continuity. Its doen to Gen 5 mons jist being minmaxed compshit in general.
Also, frick conpshittery in general.
>Meanwhile Gen2 respected continuity was was “rewarded” with: the dex being bloated with worthless baby pokemon, Typhlosion being banned from getting coverage and being stuck as a CHARIZARD clone, H. Typhlosion getting a Frisk in an open meta, and Meganium being a punchline instead of a instead of pokemon. And all the started being skipped over for megas when gen1 and 3 got them
Gen 3 got Starter Megas because they got their remakes in Gen 6. Pokemon like the Roaming Beasts, Smeargle, Scizor, Blissey, Ttar, etc. are among the most iconic comp mons despite not being minmaxed powercreep garbo and they are from Gen 2.
Gen 2s Pokemon are among a lot of the most memorable and frequently get mistaken for Gen 1 Pokemon in part because it was made in complement to Gen 1s existing roster, a thing Gen 5 suffers greatly due to rejecting wholesale.
>Would Johto have been good if they had scrapped the idea of a Kanto postgame and used the freed-up space to enhance Johto itself instead?
No, the problem was Johto in the first place. It probably would have killed pokemania even faster if they kept it as is.
Yes, every flaw with GSC is due to game freak shoving in KANTOOOOO and GenWun Pokémon everywhere. It probably would have saved pokemania if they let Johto stand on its own instead of using it as an expansion pack for KANTOOOOOOOOOO
Dumb zoomers
>scrapped the idea of a Kanto postgame
Kanto was never planned, it was added last minute.
Sure, but it took time to add in those NPCs, write the NPC dialogue, work on the maps (it's not a simple port job, Kanto is physically smaller and had to be redone in the GSC tileset) etc. That time could have been spent to add more stuff to Johto at the end of development and work on rebalancing levels.
Anon, Gamefreak has always been able to do just the bare minimum. If Iwata hadn't bailed them out, the game would've ended when you beat the E4.
Johto wouldn't suck so bad if the team rocket plot was good
Johto wouldn't suck so bad if it wasn't knock off Kanto.
There was no need to even bring back Team Rocket. They were finished by Red, Giovanni fricked off. Come up with some new villains or do something else to drive the plot.
Team Rocket were fine being troublemakers like in Gen 1. Again, this is just b***hign they aren't le World ending Legendarycucks like every gen after,
>zoomers hate GSC because they have never known progress or quality in their lives
>resort to historical revisionism to defend Gen 3 killing Pokemania
Not the zoomtards but Gen 3 didn't kill pokemania. it just fizzled out. Gen 3 just came out in its wake.
>>Gen 3 killing Pokemania
ironic, this is revisionism. or delusion either one.
>THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "JOHTO POKEMON"
holy headcanon
>Johto has no mons
wow what a shitty region!
Johto was always destined to be shit because of it's troubled development.
>slugma added to kanto in GSC
>FRLG doesn't have the kanto exclusive GSC mons in it
>HGSS doesn't have the kanto exclusive GSC mons in johto
>tfw
>>HGSS doesn't have the kanto exclusive GSC mons in johto
Nearly Every Kanto exclusive-Gen2 mon was added to Johto and aviable far before Kanto either to Cliff cave or the Safari zone, and nearly all of them are default enounters so you shouldn’t even need to do the block bullshit that peope complain about. The sole exception is Houndour due to that only appearing j t he Safari Zone after you beat the Elite4/Champion.
Why do people claim B2W2 are not the same as Johto?
>Both games take place 2/3 years after the story of their predecessor.
>Both have a once disgraced evil team trying to make a comeback.
>Both use locations from the previous games with a selection of new Pokemon in returning old areas. Trainers are also stronger in older areas.
>Both games were literally built off of the game engines of their prequels.
>Old protagonist sticks out in the plot (they were suppose to have a fight in B2W2 but scrapped it)
>Both give you guaranteed shiny Pokemon
>Both have autistically edgy rival.
The only difference is that Johto introduced 100 new Pokemon, 2 new types, breeding, new moves, an additional 8 badges, the introduction of shiny mons and held items while B2W2 introduced...alternate forms for 2 legendries.
actually it was 4.
also, prequel means that it was made after but comes before story-wise, so uh..
Fair, but you get what I mean hopefully.
>>Both have autistically edgy rival
I mean, I wouldn't call Hugh edgy.
Also you forgot the content differences between BW and BW2.
You're kidding right?
>Quotes comment that is suppose to debunk me (I guess?)
>Doesn't disprove any of the similarities
>Only further points out that B2W2
???
* that B2W2 don't add much when compared to Gen 2 and how it expanded on Kanto.
comment that is suppose to debunk me
correct
get debunked, idiot
>Johto hater can't read very well
>Responds like a child
You need to be 18 or over to post here anon.
mad because debunked
>mad because debunked
nice self-portrait. here's mine.
>You're kidding right?
Are you?
Being edgy and being angry are two different things.
Hugh wanted to get his sister's purrloin back.
Silver was the red haired son of the leader of team rocket, he was a thief stealing his starter pokemon and single handedly defeated every trainer in victory road.
Actual quote from Hugh:
>"Is this all? I think you need more backup. Hey, just to let you know... I'm about to unleash my rage!"
I accept your concession kid. Now put the phone away and pay attention, you might actually learn to read before the school day is over.
Hugh is literally me.
see
Johto IS good
The game would be better overall if they had more space to flesh out some of the Kanto areas specifically. Johto itself is great.
Cystal is the ultimate culmination of Pokemon. I do enjoy some games after it like gen 3 and platinum, but gen 2 really was the pinnacle of what they were trying to accomplish in the first place.
>Johto itself is great
correct
>Would Johto have been good if they had scrapped the idea of a Kanto postgame and used the freed-up space to enhance Johto itself instead?
they didn't really have the capabilities at the time to make Johto as memorable a region as Hoenn
it would have felt like west kanto no matter what because the graphical capabilities to make it look like anything but RBY with color, as opposed to what it looks like in HGSS, did not exist for them.
You could say Kanto as postgame was the only thing that saved GSC from being totally critically panned, by appealing to short term nostalgia instead of providing a new and different experience of substance.
>The region could have felt less like West Kanto and more like a proper standalone region.
There was nothing they could have done to make Johto feel like its own distinct and memorable region. Pokemon scenery thrives upon terrain and architecture, and there was nothing special in GSC or Johto terrain-wise, nor was there as many instances of spectacular architectural landmarks as there needed to be.
> You could say Kanto as postgame was the only thing that saved GSC from being totally critically panned,
This is bullshit and literally the other way around. The only reason Kanto (especially one with most of the dungeons gutted) is considered a acceptable and not an insult was because Johto provided enough of an unique and new experience on its own, so gutted Kanto just seems like a bonus.
If anything having Kanto as postgame hurt Johto because all the lore, landmarks, dungeons, atmosphere of Johto end up taking a back seat to KANTOOOOOO. The vast amount of new mechanics and QOL go under-appreciated because everyone’s too busy focused on Game Freak fitting KANTOOOOO into the game. The credit for the genuine fun people had end up being ends up going to KANTOOOOOO despite that entire segment being only about 1/5 of the play time (and I’m being extremely generous with that estimate)
That’s why Game Freak has never done another Game with two regions,
>This is bullshit and literally the other way around. The only reason Kanto (especially one with most of the dungeons gutted) is considered a acceptable and not an insult was because Johto provided enough of an unique and new experience on its own, so gutted Kanto just seems like a bonus.
johto is half a region
gutted kanto is half a region
the two combined equal'd one whole region
>all the lore, landmarks, dungeons, atmosphere of Johto
totals up to a handful or less of entities
>The vast amount of new mechanics and QOL go under-appreciated
it added night, breeding, room decoration, rematches, and held items
> johto is half a regi-
Stopped reading right there, go back and proofread your shit website, Joe
>This is bullshit and literally the other way around. The only reason Kanto (especially one with most of the dungeons gutted) is considered a acceptable and not an insult was because Johto provided enough of an unique and new experience on its own, so gutted Kanto just seems like a bonus.
This
>johto is half a region
No it isn't.
>gutted kanto is half a region
No it isn't.
>Johto provided enough of an unique and new experience on its own
HA you're joking right? It was Kanto 2.0 with less features.
johtoddlers always default to lying until the evidence gets posted
sad but that's all they can do
So Johto is the smallest.
This seems like a loaded question so I'll answer as truthfully as I can, based off of my experiences in pokemon HeartGold
>Would Johto have been good if they had scrapped the idea of a Kanto postgame and used the freed-up space to enhance Johto itself instead?
I don't think you can rectify the Kanto region in the GSC/HGSS games aside from removing it outright with no substitute. The problem with Johto (or atleast (You)r problem with Johto) is that everything from the start to the end has strong ties to Kanto. At the very beginning Professor Oak speaks to you, you see him at Mr. Pokemon's house, he's on the radio, you find Rattata and Pidgey on Route 29 (first route in the Johto games), the entire Team Rocket plot that came directly after the events of RBY, the Radio Tower and the S.S. Anne's relations to Kanto, the majority of trainers use pokemon that debuted in the Kanto region, outright referencing the events of the last game from "3 years ago", etc. You can't just "remove" Kanto without majorly changing what Johto is. You'd need a new evil team, a new plot, even more new pokemon if you're really autistic about kantomons in Johto, new E4, new maps, new setting, and so on. They are linked by far more than just the proximity of each other.
>It would have the bonus of solving the problem of Johtomons being trapped in Kanto.
If you mean the likes of Houndour and Sneasel being only found in Kanto, the real problem is them just being postgame pokemon. "Fixing" that usually just means moving their encounters earlier in the game, like how romhacks did it and how third version pokemon games tweaked encounters.
>The region could have felt less like West Kanto and more like a proper standalone region.
I think that the region has a clear identity on its own. For example, the region puts a strong emphasis on its traditional, historical roots in folklore and legend, represented by the legendary pokemon HO-OH, Lugia, and the Three Legendary Dogs. (1/2)
And the only major city with urbanized structure and technology is Goldenrod. Contrasted with the almost entirely urbanized Kanto, Johto is a majorly rural forested region, like how Hoenn is a majorly tropical region and Sinnoh is a chilly, windy region with an extreme mountain range. But if identity hinges entirely on the proximity of other regions and literally nothing else, then you could call Kanto East Johto as much as you could call Johto West Kanto.
But really, I think the fact that the two regions share a road with each other is ultimately a non-issue. Johto being next to Kanto doesn't make Johto any less of a region, and Kanto being next to Johto doesn't make Kanto any less of a region. They just coexist.
(2/2), forgot that bit
well said