Going from Skill trees to choice trees was the best thing blizzard has ever done, and maybe one of the best ideas for MMO gaming in general. Here's why:
Talent trees, are basically never a choice. They are the ILLUSION of choice, from vanilla all the way to the end of cataclysm, do you know how often you had to respec as a PvE shadow priest? Or any other class? Basically never. This fantasy that everyone skills different is just that: a fantasy. Everyone skills the same PvP build, everyone skills the same PvE build. At best you get builds that end in: "And then you have 3 points over, put them wherever, it doesn't matter".
Even worse, back then skill trees were full of "increase damage by X" talents that were just always an obvious choice. So you might as well not have them, and there are still such talents in the new trees.
With skill choices, in pandaria alone hat me switch talents more than all other expansions combined. The choice between a short cooldown low speed buff, vs a long cooldown high speed bufff vs allowing you to remove movement impairs, is a WAY more meaningful choice than anything a skill tree has ever had to offer.
The only upside of a skill tree is that while leveling you get something to click every level, vs every 10 levels.
the illusion of choice and feeling of building your character is way cooler than >pick 1 of 3 choices every 15 levels frick off
I hate that they balanced WoW around the endgame and rushing players there as soon as possible instead of continuously adding meaningful content spread out everywhere
What good is "building your character" if you end up with the same shit as everyone else as well, what good is that?
I'd much rather have milestone choices that are ACTUALLY optional, instead of forced, than a giant ass talent tree in which I have to pick every single optimal damage talent and have no actual choice in what I want to pick.
The choice system was absolutely superior.
>The illusion of free will
this. no matter how many choices they give you, there really will only be one path to the bottom
>The illusion of free will
This has never and will never be an argument, free will is only an "illusion" if you intentionally take it away from yourself by being a brainless moron who copies builds without actually thinking about anything or taking situationality into account. People had to figure those builds out to begin with, world first prog groups are constantly fricking around with talents trying to find the strongest thing for each situation. Also, every time something new becomes meta it didn't just come out of thin air, people used their free will to experiment and discover a new strongest build.
Not even defending WoW, just defending character building as a concept
anon stop pretending sims don't exist >b-but arms warrior sims were shit and the top guilds still brought them and they topped meters
they do their own simming in private
It's still not covering the nuances of original fights
If you netneck builds you're playing the game wrong
2 years ago
Anonymous
Doesn't even matter. All you have to do is look at warcraft logs and see the talent builds people are using. No need for a sim, the best builds will just rise to the top unless you are in a top guild that does fights before there are logs
2 years ago
Anonymous
>the system is bad because if you use it wrong it's boring
why is Ganker like this
2 years ago
Anonymous
>It's still not covering the nuances of original fights
It doesn't need to, for that's for the player to do. Simming just gets the arbitrary and outdated crap out of the way.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>for that's for the player to do.
So you're agreeing with me now? Okay
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yes. I agree that the new talents are just an illusion since everyone is going to run cookie cutter builds in a month or so from the release.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>backpedaling
I accept your concession
They might not armory you and find you talent tree to call you shit but if deeps isn't good enough you're getting kicked
Which means everything is fine because the best builds for given encounters are discovered by people innovating away from meme guide builds
I'm glad you agree with me
2 years ago
Anonymous
>backpedaling
Not an argument, thanks for playing.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I accept your concession
2 years ago
Anonymous
You keep saying that because you have no argument. There are no meaningful choices in the talent trees, only cookie cutter builds will prevail, as per usual. Keep seething though.
sound like they want to play a spreadsheet, not a game
when did video games just become a bunch of middle managers scratching their balls over optimal builds in less than a real world use case? the game is meant to be played and meant to be fun. if it's neither then why bother?
>sound like they want to play a spreadsheet, not a game
the leader of liquit (who got 5th place in a 2 man race recently, lmao) said just that. He doesn't care if it's just a bunch of stick figures and squares dancing around on screen he just likes planning everything out
>when did video games just become a bunch of middle managers scratching their balls over optimal builds in less than a real world use case?
When everyone started getting upset about others getting ahead of them,
I'd like to hear a solution, because "netdecking" has always and will always be a thing. No game in the history of fricking forever has been able to make every character building choice viable; there is ALWAYS a best way.
The solution is to not do it
Be part of the solution and discover the new builds that the next wave of morons will netneck
too bad the game and playerbase ignores character building as a concept. the game will get solved soon after inception and there will only be one viable build for your rogue, or you will forever be nerfing your performance against those who take the wowhead.com talent build
>the game will get solved soon after inception and there will only be one viable build for your rogue
Try actually reading my post
[...] >WHAT THE FRICK IS YOUR TREE MAN IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT THE WAY WE WANT YOU'RE NOT RAIDING WITH US!
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
This isn't a thing
If it ever does happen, it's a garbage guild with fake tryhards and you shouldn't be playing in it anyways
Stop making up moronic boogeymen
>Stop making up moronic boogeymen
I love this response, deliberately ignoring what's been going on for years that everyone knows about. Why? Who knows, maybe you're just that desperate to think you're right.
Nope. If your guild is full of fake tryhard shitters, pick a different one. Not an argument.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Can't when all the raiding guilds demand you spec one specific way to maximize DPS and healing. That's how it's been since Vanilla. Why are you so desperate to rewrite history?
2 years ago
Anonymous
>more boogeyman shit
2 years ago
Anonymous
>le ebin meme word will defeat you!
If that's all you can do, then you lost this debate. Deny history all you want, it won't change for you.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Deny history all you want, it won't change for you.
2 years ago
Anonymous
And with that, the shitposter is broken.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Seethe all you want, your revisionist history will never be real
That shit was never universal, try playing in non-shit guilds
2 years ago
Anonymous
>That shit was never universal
True, it stopped when the talent trees were removed. And it will start back up again when the trees come back.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>I don't know what the word "never" means
2 years ago
Anonymous
Why are you so desperate to claim something that's extremely well-documented and know to have happened is really fake news and never occurred? You sound like a Holocaust denier.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Why are you so desperate to claim that something that only happened in garbage guilds full of unskilled tryhard morons was something universal to the entire game?
a good player can't do good dps with a shit build and a bad player can't do good dps with a good build. The game isn't a skillcheck, it's a gearcheck.
Try actually reading my posts
2 years ago
Anonymous
try reading mine
2 years ago
Anonymous
LOL so now all of those top raiding guilds were "tryhard garbage loser moron buggadawuggamomugga!"?
2 years ago
Anonymous
the non shit guilds DEMAND you to use meta builds to give you a spot
the non shit ones that tolerate meme trees in the group will constantly make fun of you and pester you to switch even if you have orange logs almost every time
t. has been in both
2 years ago
Anonymous
No, the non-shit guilds will look at your DPS, not your builds. Stop raiding with morons
2 years ago
Anonymous
a good player can't do good dps with a shit build and a bad player can't do good dps with a good build. The game isn't a skillcheck, it's a gearcheck.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>play survival hunter >consistently top 3 dps >morons still telling me to go marksman because its le ranged and le better >cant switch guild anymore because literally no one is accepting survival hunters or melees
Anon is right, if you dont follow the meta or know some officer somewhere you are SOL because every GM and officer has his head up his own ass. Some shittier guilds even try to tell you exactly what talents to use on what fight
2 years ago
Anonymous
Surv is the current meta wtf are you talking about. It's better than all the other specs at ST and AoE because the set bonus is busted
2 years ago
Anonymous
Greentext is from Nathria and early Chains when I ran out of gold printed in WoD
2 years ago
Anonymous
Well yes. Playing surv back then was just trolling. The DPS was mediocre and brings no utility at all. You only get few melee spots in a raid, and bringing a hunter which can play ranged spec that does more damage than surv is moronic.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I accept your concession
2 years ago
Anonymous
Wanting to bring a DH which brings darkness, an AoE stun, and a 5% magic buff to all casters or a DK which brings AMZ and grips over a survival hunter which brings nothing is moronic. There were plenty of viable non-META options, surv is not one of them. It was literally trolling the group of course no one wanted to play with you.
2 years ago
Anonymous
You of course realise your personal dps isn't the reason people aren't taking you as someone who chooses the be in melee as a pure dps class with two ranged options right? It's almost like you're basically intentionally choosing to shit up a raid comp given dps are a dime a d dozen, the game is melee heavy and ranged favored. Not to mention most melee classes can run back up tank or heals if someone is sick/busy or flakes.
2 years ago
Anonymous
So basically follow the meta or die? Yeah
2 years ago
Anonymous
the meta is enforced by the devs by making mechanics that punish melee uptime. A good melee player can do even more damage from range since their uptime will be higher (and the ranged specs are usually stronger, melee are brought only for buffs)
2 years ago
Anonymous
Just don't raid. Simple as.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I took it one step further and just don't play it at all
2 years ago
Anonymous
No. I was saying those officers with their heads up their asses' have to consider the 19 other people and how they all fit together to make a raid.
You as a hunter, are a pure dps spec so I can only bring you for dps are choosing to take a limited melee slot despite having TWO ranged options. This means I now have to sit a melee (who can't take a ranged slot), what if this melee is the off-tank or an off heals and they get stroppy? Why would I ever risk that for you?
This again is all taking place in a game with too many melee specs that actively punishes melee for existing.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>So basically follow the meta or die? Yeah
Should I play retail?
Frick no
2 years ago
Anonymous
>survival hunter >has a learning disability
Checks out.
Raid comps have nothing to do with the meta you mongoloid. Survival could be the best fricking spec in the game and it's still not getting taken for prog because everything about it is antithetical to effective comp building.
>guy joins your raid and doesn't have garrote or mutilate >you kick him >reports you for violating his right to free spec
Assassination gets garrotte for free.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Raid comps have nothing to do with the meta you mongoloid >Survival could be the best fricking spec in the game and it's still not getting taken for prog because everything about it is antithetical to effective comp building
In other words, it's not part of the meta, you absolute fricking moron. And how could something be "the best spec in the game" if it's, by your definition, not viable? Do you even think about this shit before posting?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Anon is 'the meta' in the room with us right now? Is it speaking to you?
But seriously this is not a hard concept to grasp, melee bad.
If you have to option to not be melee but choose to do it you're going to have to justify that, either by your spec having some special utility (like leader of the pack or windfury totem) or by providing utility to your raid (being willing and able to offtank/off heal) and even then traditionally feral and enhancement (and now survival) are underrepresented because most of the time the tradeoff is never worth just not being ranged. Given that hunters are pure dps and offer no flexability to the raid and spec-wise you offer no utility to the raid why would someone ever bring a survival hunter?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yes, HAVING GREAT UTILITY CAN MAKE A MELEE CLASS USEFUL, AND THEREFORE PART OF THE *META*. SURVIVAL IS NOT PART OF THE *META* BECAUSE ALL IT OFFERS IS DAMAGE, WHICH RANGED CLASSES CAN ALSO OFFER WHILE BEING SAFER. THAT'S WHAT A FRICKING *META* IS.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>using higher reasoning at all even when it's specifically related to just your raid group with what resources you specifically have available is metahomosexualry
You got me schitzo I guess we should all just use lizard brains when making a raid comp so people on the internet can't scream about a meta.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Other anon gives a list of reasons why people do or don't do something >huntard: the meta did this
I fricking can't
2 years ago
Anonymous
>unironically plays survival hunter
Good, I hope nobody invites you to any content. Frick your meme spec.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Ranged DPS is better for everyone because Blizz keeps making content that shits on Melee classes. There are some rare cases in which Melee can do better than Ranged, but they feel very artificial, like they're trying really hard but can't make it natural to give benefits to Melees.
2 years ago
Anonymous
There used to be a downside to ranged, like finite resources and deadzones. Too bad that stopped being a thing.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Because half the ranged classes were supposed to be hybrids
2 years ago
Anonymous
Way to be a disingenuous moronic homosexual and prove you barely play the game. You're saying EVERY raiding guild in the game REQUIRES you to have the best build for your class? Frick off Black person.
the non shit guilds DEMAND you to use meta builds to give you a spot
the non shit ones that tolerate meme trees in the group will constantly make fun of you and pester you to switch even if you have orange logs almost every time
t. has been in both
This fricking moron too. What? Have you been in two guilds or something? Guild I am in right now allows a couple hunters to run whatever the frick they want, not meta, and they don't give a frick and they blue/purple parse. Maybe your little crowd of homosexuals isn't the only guild?
>This isn't a thing
If it ever does happen, it's a garbage guild with fake tryhards and you shouldn't be playing in it anyways
Stop making up moronic boogeymen
yes it is moron even the most casual of raiders will talk shit about your talent choices because its not optimal. do you know why mods and Damage meters are fricking looked down on in FFXIV because it becomes a tool for the shittiest of players to judge and ostrisize you because you're not "Playing the meta"
too bad the game and playerbase ignores character building as a concept. the game will get solved soon after inception and there will only be one viable build for your rogue, or you will forever be nerfing your performance against those who take the wowhead.com talent build
These trees are the definition of "illusion of free will", however. Just look at that shit: you can "pick" between Garrote, Blind, Sap...except that you really want all of them, since not only are they pretty fricking essential to actually playing the class, they are also abilities Rogues used to have as a baseline to begin with. There is no choice to be made here.
That's why you just run multiple sims with different settings what are you even talking about
lmao you really don't know how sims works
warlock is not the best ST class yet is the strongest class right now
I swear people talking about wow on Ganker have never played this game
>world first prog groups are constantly fricking around with talents trying to find the strongest thing for each situation.
You are not a world first raider, and neither is 99% of the playerbase. You do not need to squeeze in an extra 3 DPS and the cookie cutter tree supplied by wowhead or icyveins or your class discord will be good for 99% of situations. You MIGHT have a ST build and an AoE build, but that's about it.
*pulls up icy veins*
*copies meta spec*
*reads class guide*
*doesn’t deviate from anything at all* > you're talking to low iq ffxiv Black folk, they need asiatic devs to tell them how to play the game
>but muh fun finding the best build
All the progress guilds WILL make you use their meta builds or you are fricked, creativity dies with optimal numbers.
This. The problem runs much deeper, it's not just the simplicity of the modern talent tree. It's because of the community's obsession with minmaxing and using autistically simulated net builds. Even if your dps is fine, not having a specific talent build will get you branded as a noob and you will be kicked from the group. This is part of the cancer that killed mmorpgs in general. It's fricking over, it's time to move on
That by itself isn't the problem. The reason it's an issue in MMOs specifically is because your access to the high end content is gated not just by whether you have the ability to clear it, but by whether other people looking at you THINK you have the ability to clear it.
Or just do 95% of the content that doesn't require another person or play RS3 which is 99.999% solo. I think theres literally only 3 bosses you can't do solo there
I pug all the time and I've forgotten quite a few times to change my talents to go into a dungeon as both DPS and tank (and my soulbinds and conduits) and nobody ever batted an eye. Doing Mythic+15s btw, I'm going only for 2500.
People don't have the critical thinking skills to realise the original talent tree was better because you got a point each level and it felt rewarding.
The modern Blizzard devs are min/max dudes (ion was from elitist jerks) who only care about the end game and thought giving you a talent every 15 levels in MOP was a good idea. Levelling became a chore.
[...] >The illusion of free will
This has never and will never be an argument, free will is only an "illusion" if you intentionally take it away from yourself by being a brainless moron who copies builds without actually thinking about anything or taking situationality into account. People had to figure those builds out to begin with, world first prog groups are constantly fricking around with talents trying to find the strongest thing for each situation. Also, every time something new becomes meta it didn't just come out of thin air, people used their free will to experiment and discover a new strongest build.
Not even defending WoW, just defending character building as a concept
I can't even imagine what Blizzard would have to do at this point to save not just WoW but any of their games. I am certain there is no one working there with that kind of creative spark.
Diablo Immortal already saved the company anon. Its on its way of surpassing Genshin Impact once they are allowed to get in China.
Pooh cant delay the inevitable.
Genshin made many times more money than Immortal during its launch weeks even if you exclude china and unlike Immortal, it has a much more sustainable model and a better relationship with its players.
Immortal will never even come close to Genshin in terms of revenue.
The combat was never the issue in WoW anyhow, it's always been literally everything else. If anything the combat was the ONLY thing that was fine (at least for a tab target MMO).
>Effectively the same as the current class but now with less abilities because you don't have enough points to get what you had
It's really incredible how optics matter so much more to normalgays than how things actually are. >but all rogue specs can get shadow dance now
ok? They could've just made it baseline without this new system.
Absolute fricking truth. There's going to be a build guide on Icyveins, day one, and odds are it WILL be the most optimal way to play, making experimentation pointless.
It wasn't the removal of skill trees that made classes a flavorless exercise in conformity, it's the metagayging that says you either roll with the canonized build or get excluded from everything. Youll even have some fat frick that's played one class exclusively for years eyeballing your talents and saying "you can't join this half-ass key group because the internet says you would choose these if you were a world champion (and therefore had an elite team and didn't have to make eclectic situational picks to offset extremely common frickups that I'm certain to make)".
then the only solution is for all builds to be mediocre and pick the most interesting one that stands out. frick the best dps. remove the meters addons and whatever too.
Anon how should I tell you this
but removing meter addons would make things even worse at this point
theorycrafters will figure out the "optimal" builds just as quickly, post it online and everyone will see it and go "oh you have to have this build"
now without meter addons you can't even say "hey my DPS is fine even with a technically sub-optimal build"
it's going to turn into "you're the reason we wiped because your build is inferior" with no recourse from you to prove it was the braindead meta-build follower with zero skill or spatial awareness
then have the devs build the specs in a way where no matter what talent choice it isn't viable or optimal for just one out of the others, have them all be middle road and design the game around making them work while understanding that its okay to wipe more than once.
as soon as a spec is even 1% better than the alternatives you will be forced to pick it
which by the way is literally impossible to avoid unless you homogenize all classes so much they're just differently colored wizards or fighters
this is not just a dev problem, it's a community problem
2 years ago
Anonymous
you can't tell the community off for playing a game optimally
2 years ago
Anonymous
That's why the classes should be FUN. If the classes are fun nobody will care about a 1% dps loss. RaidBlack folk are not human and do not apply.
2 years ago
Anonymous
You are in a WoW thread there is only raiders and Mythic players. There isn't anything else to do in the game.
There is a VERY simple solution to this problem but both the devs and the players will cry b***h tears about "muh difficulty" if it is ever done Remove enrage as an idea at every level of play that isn't the absolute highest (so remove it from everything that isn't mythic difficulty) and no one will ever point at DPS being the problem ever again
FFXIV did it and it has proven to work since people only b***h at each other for failing mechanics instead or freeloading (which is an entierly different issue to tackle on its own)
>XIV did it and it proved to work
Yoshi could take a giant turd on a plate and the fanbase would ask for seconds. The game is lazy, homogenized to shit and 90% filler and people call it a masterpiece
2 years ago
Anonymous
Did you notice how I never said anything about the quality of the game? Hell, even a broken clock is right twice a day and all that.
If all the devs ever do is look at successes for guidance then they are doomed to fail since they won't recognize when they are setting themselves up to fail
WoW has always had a problem with "ENRAGE" being so omnipresent since it boils every single encounter down to a priority list that is scewed in a way that does not encourage roleplaying or even role fullfilment >1st, make sure that ENRAGE is avoided by doing deeps >2nd, survive >3rd, everything else
Oldschool RPGs always avoided this pitfall by putting the players priority on survival, not racing as fast as they can to the bottom. It's why "MUH DEEPS" has been so ingrained in MMO culture today when that never used to be the case before. It's why being a "Glass cannon" was discouraged by more experienced players since they knew that it came at the cost of survival, but when the cost of survival is not doing enough damage, everyone turns into a "Glass cannon"
Ffxiv has enrage it just really soft and if you hit the enrage, you re really doing a bad job
2 years ago
Anonymous
Is it really enrage when your dps is so dogshit, that the mechanics you haven't seen in months or rbrn years go off, and wipe the group?
2 years ago
Anonymous
That is not true for any of the normal mode content in the game. There are exceptions to this, but enrages only starts being a thing around Extreme tier content and beyond. Even at Extreme you won't hit enrage unless there are atleast 2 people in the content asleep behind the wheel and are not pulling even close to the "average" amount of DPS you can get out of a Job
>proven to work since people only b***h at each other for failing mechanics instead or freeloading
Having a meme dps build in a mmo is freeloading. People still b***h about the same things in WoW even with enrage mechanics. I can't think of any reason why you'd choose to play your class poorly, in a tab targetting MMO there's no dps rotation that can be so fun you'd rather freeload then play properly. If every class has a high risk high reward specc like surrender to madness I'd understand, but removing enrages just because people can't be bothered to do optimal rotations is dumb
2 years ago
Anonymous
It's not about lowering standards for morons, it's that the devs themselves put themselves in a situation where EVERYTHING most deal DPS in some way otherwise the enrage mechanic will be pointless or it will be forced upon players no matter what "spec" they have or how optimally they play their class.
Read:
Did you notice how I never said anything about the quality of the game? Hell, even a broken clock is right twice a day and all that.
If all the devs ever do is look at successes for guidance then they are doomed to fail since they won't recognize when they are setting themselves up to fail
WoW has always had a problem with "ENRAGE" being so omnipresent since it boils every single encounter down to a priority list that is scewed in a way that does not encourage roleplaying or even role fullfilment >1st, make sure that ENRAGE is avoided by doing deeps >2nd, survive >3rd, everything else
Oldschool RPGs always avoided this pitfall by putting the players priority on survival, not racing as fast as they can to the bottom. It's why "MUH DEEPS" has been so ingrained in MMO culture today when that never used to be the case before. It's why being a "Glass cannon" was discouraged by more experienced players since they knew that it came at the cost of survival, but when the cost of survival is not doing enough damage, everyone turns into a "Glass cannon"
This is only partially true though
Our guild did well enough back in vanilla (twin emps and a few naxx bosses), and we ran a ton of sub-optimal builds.
Blaming the players is shifting the blame away from the developers, they are unironically ways of designing talent trees they can be fun and you can deviate from the meta. There are ways despite them having cookie cutter builds that you can have cool abilities and FUN, these talent trees aren't even talent trees they're literally just abilities you already have with "3+" stam in between. They're absolutely hollow and devoid of any actual choice to begin with. It's clearly an attempt to pander to Classicgays with out actually realizing what people are asking for is something akin to PoE, or there abouts so you can have classes with unique builds. There should be a ton of new abilities, overarching branches, there should be SOMETHING fun not just "spend 1 point to get x baseline abilitiy teehee!" it's fricking shit.
This. It's as much the fault of min/maxers as it is Blizzards.
You can't blame the players for the game design
MMOs are fundamentally braindead. a DPS class has one role, make damage number big. Of course there's going to be an optimal way to do this, it's a simple math problem
All games have a meta, but look at a game like DOTA, where builds become very diverse and they actually work because the game is complex and difficult to map out the optimum path so people are trying new shit all the time
Meanwhile in MMOs all you have to do is make one number go up so you can grind on the dumb npc enemy
>There are not common build paths for DotA heroes
Also, you acting like all MMO's are the same and even with that WoW has multiple builds, gearsets, and individual skill as ways of skill expression. Just like you can't be the number 1 Dota player in the world you will never be the number 1 WoW player because you do not have high enough skill expression to do what they do.
If your only argument is game I play is harder then game you play then what are you even getting at?
Like I said, all games have a meta. The only difference is how rigid they are. In WoW there's basically one talent build to take because the problem you're trying to solve is so simple and linear there's really no room for nuance or disagreement, there's just one objectively optimal build. In more complicated games it's harder to say what the objectively best build is or there might not even be one
Maybe there's some MMOs out there that aren't braindead but I've never seen one
2 years ago
Anonymous
But Dota does have Metas builds for heroes, meta team comps, meta play styles. You are just acting like Dota has real skill expression even though all those MMOs you are talking about have player skill expression which makes the game more difficult at the highest level compared to what they everyday player has to experience just like DoTA.
Your only argument is that since you believe there is more difficulty in DOTA its better then something less difficult. That's fine if you believe that but its def not the point that Dota doesn't have an optimal way to play.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Like I said, all games have a meta. The only difference is how rigid they are.
Read posts before you reply to them
2 years ago
Anonymous
Okay what is rigid in WoW? Spec and raid comp okay well that exists in DoTA in the form of character select and team composition. Then there is what item build you go in Dota which I would say is gearing choices in WoW. Finally, you have player skill where you actually play your character which of course both games have.
Now what's your belief that one is rigid and the other isn't? It just comes down to the fact you think DoTA is more difficult and that fact means its not rigid like an MMO is.
You have multiple DoTA 2 champs which aren't even played in the pro scene because of how weak they are and you have multiple hero's that have a 70% pick or ban rate or higher. Isn't that rigid?
2 years ago
Anonymous
This isn't a black and white question. WoW is way more rigid than DoTA. WoW has one spec which is objectively best for the job, which you can read online and use and you'll be best for your role, at least when I played it. Because of the nature of the problem this can never really be different, your only task is to make one number higher as you beat on sandbag enemies
That's in no way comparable to some heroes having a 70% pick ban rate, not even close
2 years ago
Anonymous
I used to play Rift and with the talent mixing system there seemed to be more viable builds for different scenarios.
They also had supports which I miss alot, basically buffing team and debuffing the enemy.
Mythic+
Dungeons in WoW have difficulty levels: Normal, Heroic and Mythic. After Mythic you have what's called Mythic+ (Mythic+1, Mythic+2, Mythic+3, Mythic+4...), a harder and harder version of the same dungeon. The objective is not only to beat the dungeon, but to do it as quickly as possible.
At some point enemies become so strong, you can't just fight them all and get a good time at the end. That's why utility becomes so important: a class that can stealth your entire party, or can create portals, or allows everyone to walk on water, or can mind control an enemy to throw it off a cliff and kill it instantly, or can move/CC enemies without aggroing them... these abilities are usually much more important than +5% DPS.
>it's just the old spec passives rearranged into a tree with three new abilities at the end (one or more of which might be a recycled covenant ability).
Thank you blizzard
>spend all that time, money and effort to streamline classes only to RETVRN TO TRADITION because roleplaying supermen who have no limitations is boring as shit >end up redoing skill trees in the worst possible way anyways
It's amazing major investors haven't cashed out this shit company yet
>wants the cup talent at the bottom of the 'rogue tree' >only one path to get there, forced to take specific talents along the way >except for one tier which gives you 2 choices, before going back to the same rigid path
WOW SO CHOICES
MUCH VARIETY
if you believe that then youre the target demographic. thanks for turning classic into min max hell, unironically you saved me alot of time and money by making it clear that the new wave of players werent going to mesh well with the game i used to love.
>lose most of the abilities that have been baseline since fricking vanilla unless you buy them back >forced to spend talent points on basic defensive abilities which means people just wont take them because they have to sacrifice damage to do so
it's actually much worse than it ever was
>building your class is different than Vanilla >different is bad because...it just is ok >should be like Vanilla where druids, paladins and shamans only exist to heal
The issue is not that different = bad, but that the trees are poorly designed.
Telling one of your raiders they have to gimp their build in order to take a CC or Interrupt that's in a shitty spot on the tree when it was previously a baseline ability is fricking bullshit.
Some of the classes have talents that are clearly designed to be stacked with each other, but are in places such that stacking them prevents you from being able to reach the final row or forces you take take extra useless talents, which is also bullshit.
i simply don't have time for mmos, i'd rather have a run or two in ror or drg with a friend at the end of the day, or a match of asshomosexuals if i can allow myself to get drunk for the night
but i hope wow can make a comeback, there should always be a good mmo on the market
Yup, they will never own up to the failure that is melee survival. MMOChamp is full of semen slurpers praising Blizzard for "sticking to their guns." Hunter died during Legion.
It's the SAME FRICKING SHIT WE HAD
Third and second tier are useless for pve, they just added lines to make you feel good and coom.
Or..."yeah i'll use brain numbing poison when i'm only allowed to use that one or the slow one".
That was back when having one character with meaningful progression mattered. Everyone wants a thousand alts nowadays; can you imagine going through a two hour skill quest on every one of them? Frick, getting the voidwalker alone was something I never wanted to do twice.
People don't want a journey, they want to pay to get levelboosted so they can get to the cap as fast as possible and then raidlog for the rest of the expansion.
>>Take the AP system and merge it into the talent tree system is now... LE GOOD!
You do realize you get all the points for your talent tree while leveling, right? (alternating between the two trees, 1 point per level after level 10 or something)
AP is just levelling with a different name, imbecile. >Hmmm how do we make the player feel like they're levelling their character without having to make any new content? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Except AP was an infinite grind, leveling is a ~10 hour roadblock to get to the endgame content. I'm starting to think you never played the endgame of Legion and BFA and you're trying really hard to shit on something you have no idea how it works.
Are you fricked in the head or something? Use your brain. >Except AP was an infinite grind
Yes, infinite grind for zero effort, exactly the kind of shit lazy devs enjoy making. >leveling is a ~10 hour roadblock to get to the endgame content
And the endgame content is just levelling another number but more boring. You're stupid.
WoW and these low effort shit MMOs will never be good as long as they do this moronic outdated system where you just select someone and press a button to do X damage. This kind of a game will always be figured out by a computer or a moronic autist. You can make the most complicated skill tree system and at the end of the day someone will just do the math to see which skills will do the most dps.
The gameplay of WoW is just a turn based NES game with bells and whistles trying to make it look like real time action.
It's every online game now. Can't even play an fps without someone going ''NOOO, YOU CAN'T USE THAT WEAPON, YOUTUBERhomosexual256 SAID IT HAD A 49% WINRATE!!!''
Play a stupid game like Overwatch and people screech commands at you ''PLAY DIVE! PLAY PIRATE SHIP!'' as if you are supposed to know what these are, like everyone who plays a game needs to go online and watch competitive games and learn all the lingo that is outside of the game.
>take spells and passives out of spell book >slap them in a BRAND NEWtm interface >you have to spend points to get your spells back now >will end up with less stuff BUT you totally have the free choice duuuud!
everyone who is excited for this is a moron
blizz have dont another classic "remove spells then add them back later as 'new' content" except this time they're trying to pander to people who played the game 15 years ago too
Hell yea go play FFXIV instead. It has all the things we shit on WoW for like fricking up... uhhh... interesting builds? No?... Uhhh... better combat? Wh..what?? N.. no? No cash shop? NO?? NOOOOOO! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Yes I'm playing the FFXIV free trial which includes the entirety of A Realm Reborn AND the award-winning Heavensward expansion up to level 60 with no restrictions on playtime of course I'm ok
I don't give a shit about WoWo WaWa
I don't give a shit about GayWarts2
I don't give a shit about homosexual Fanny XIV
I don't give a shit about TroonScape
I don't give a shit about ElderScrotes
Frick you and Dilate you homosexual Black person.
Bruh Lost Ark is so amazing that 200k of its concurrent players literally never sleep!
TRUE
#WeOkay #BR PRIDE
2 years ago
Anonymous
I accept your concession
2 years ago
Anonymous
I accept you're a brown skinned hollering monkey mad that someone called your shit game bad.
lol
they were trashing Classic and shitting on it but they now turn toward it again when they know their retail ship is sinking
wotlk is coming so good luck micro-blizz
>new race is literal tumblr trash >new OC class is tied to it >premise is boring >gameplay is still 17 year old tab target combat >lore will be as shitty as ever
yawn
isnt this literally in ffxiv?
pretty sure ive seen it somewhere that among other things you cant tell someone about raid mechanics and what they should do
its so ridiculous it had to be a hoax
so this will just end up with everyone having EVEN LESS abilities right?
just put abilities you don't want people to use so far to the side they'd have to give up on a bunch of essential features, then go
"oh you could have picked it, but you didn't, that's not our fault"
yes
and then when people realize it and complain about it they will release the "solution" which is an AP grind to unlock more talent points
so in the end you get the exact same "customization" because everyone will have filled out the entire tree and you only have to pick between the nodes that have multiple skills in one node
to be fair if it was classic it would be filled with a bunch of "5% chance of dealing 1% more damage if someone hits you" style talents either nobody picked, or people begrudgingly had to pick for the ability they gatekept
That's because smooth brains don't understand good class design and only remember the dopamine hit from getting to put another point in 'auto attacks have a 1/3/5% chance to do 17% more damage'
Talents should not be in tree form. Delete the connecting lines and have every skill be its own island then let players pick and choose their own build entirely. Simple as.
>take the existing "class specializations" >put all of their abilities and passives on a tree >add +0.1% damage passive nodes in between them to pad the tree out
voila
The talents are gonna be hit and miss. There's gonna be winners and there's gonna be losers, just how it is.
What really matters is the new zones and the content. Now there's no mandatory grind connected to power or any bullshit systems (so far) which is HIGHLY encouraging so I'll give them a + on that. The new zones themselves look to have a lot of soul and the idea of having a baby dragon we can raise and customize to ride around on is absolutely great...if they pull it off properly. Don't limit the cool appearances to Mythic+ 24 bullshit, let casualgays get some cool stuff too and you can't lose.
The over-all feeling of the expansion is a much better one than Shartlands because it's hopeful, optimistic, light-hearted. It's very reminiscent of MoP and that really isn't a bad thing given how GOOD MoP was overall besides the stupid grind in the first patch.
Plus, it's good to be back on Azeroth, back with classic fantasy tropes of Dragons doing dragon things. No cosmic hyper-war avengers shit.
>The talents are gonna be hit and miss. There's gonna be winners and there's gonna be losers, just how it is.
yep. and crybabies are going to spend an entire tier whining about their talent tree.
the real complaining is going to be the pvp talent trees now that classes have access to abilities from different specs that they can mix and match together. shadow priest getting power infusion for itself+an ally is a good example of that.
I am in no way shape or form defending shadowlands or anything associated with the epic of suevanas.
But warcraft has never really been 'classic fantasy'. WCII has all sorts of steampunk bullshit not to mention the legion was always the primary antagonist and they are very much a cosmic hyper-war threat (even before their demonpunk(?) scifi shit in TBC and their literal star destroyers in legion).
That's totally fine however, it fits in with established lore. But we'd JUST got done fighting the Legion and the Void to then go and fight another guy we've never heard of who is even scarier than both is utterly moronic.
Those talents are so fricking dogshit. They took away the entire base dk kit and distributed it in different talent branches. So now you can't even get the necessary abilities that you normally had
I'm going to spoil you all on how to enjoy WoW again, at least for a little. You don't play until the final patch of the expansion. Because at the end of every expansion for the past few there have been catch-up mechanics, easier to obtain gear, the balance has been "improved", and you'll be allowed to roughly play at your own pace. You skip all the bullshit.
You do nothing but set yourself up for disappointment when you play at the start. Even better the expansion comes down in price to its real value ($20/$25).
Stop being bad and pissing away your time getting mad at an incompetent company that is deliberately pushing you over the barrel and fricking you.
Just about anything about them is awful, you can literally spec into Improved Kill Command without getting KC or %x damage increase on pets while specced into Lone Wolf
>Re-Hire Xel'nath >Hire someone competent to be lead designer, move Ion back to raid encounters >Delete BFA and SL from existence >Delete rogues for good measure too >Roll back class design to MoP
Yep, that's a good expansion.
Oh wow, the old talent trees that were completely dogshit and full of 'you gain +1% extra damage' and 'you get 20 extra mana when you cast' WOW i can't believe it, that is so much better than the current talents that give me new abilities and change how I play my class ahahah OLD = GOOD OLD = GOOD OLD = GOOD HAHAHA
Fricktarded Blizz listening to morons who don't even play the game anymore and will never play the game again, yeah that's the way to go, you'd think the stupid c**ts would've learned with all the classic shit that it's literally just a novelty for subhuman neanderthal glue glue sniffers who want to pretend they're 12 again and the game is 'good' again (read: worse in every fricking way). Frick off already and go play XIV you literal brain dented lobotomites.
Ironic that you poke at a random wow image i have instead of formulating an actual argument
classic was so much fun right, truly the peak of game design right there >rolls mage >runs the same dungeons 5000000 times >hit cap >unsub
I remember how people like sodapoppin were seething how the best part of classic was the leveling and how it's utter horse shit in retail that you could get to max level in a few days.
Then classic came out and he watched reddit videos while his simp squad ran him through scarlet monastery over and over again. So much for that experience huh?
Almost as if morons who claim old wow was better are completely detached from reality.
They release Tor'ghast, one of the coolest features they've had in a while, and the community shat on it because they HAD to to run it 500 times in a week to cap out their resource, they were being FORCED to. WoW's community is filled of actual mongoloids who just shit on everything because they play nothing but wow 24/7 and blame the game for them having been burned out for years and not being able to let go or play other games too.
Blizzard should unironically ignore every single thing the players say and this stupid talent shit, all of classic, all of it is a perfect example.
Ironic that you poke at a random wow image i have instead of formulating an actual argument
classic was so much fun right, truly the peak of game design right there >rolls mage >runs the same dungeons 5000000 times >hit cap >unsub
I remember how people like sodapoppin were seething how the best part of classic was the leveling and how it's utter horse shit in retail that you could get to max level in a few days.
Then classic came out and he watched reddit videos while his simp squad ran him through scarlet monastery over and over again. So much for that experience huh?
Almost as if morons who claim old wow was better are completely detached from reality.
They release Tor'ghast, one of the coolest features they've had in a while, and the community shat on it because they HAD to to run it 500 times in a week to cap out their resource, they were being FORCED to. WoW's community is filled of actual mongoloids who just shit on everything because they play nothing but wow 24/7 and blame the game for them having been burned out for years and not being able to let go or play other games too.
Blizzard should unironically ignore every single thing the players say and this stupid talent shit, all of classic, all of it is a perfect example.
I want to see what a max level spell book looks like at max level with no talent points applied. It's gonna be barren as frick. The idea that can you make a Sub rouge that doesn't have Shadow Dance or Shadowstep is kind of absurd, far too much of each spec's basic kit is in the talent tree.
>writing as a condition, but let's be honest
Yeah, as if they'd ever fire the rertards that are writing the shit that they call a "story" currently. You are right in thinking that this is nothing more than a pipe dream
>current year >Blizzard is stil relying on a talent to be Frost's mechanic instead of designing some depth into the spec.
All I want is my soul-sucking mechanic leading to a big hit.
I just want new skills. I don't care about any of the mechanics I am the sub 80 IQ rollercoster appreciator that wow has been trying to court for the last ten years all I want is new cool necromacncy I do not care how bad the rest of the game is
>THIS TIME FOR REAL!!!!!! EVERYTHING IS FIXED!!!!!!!! PLEASE COME BACK!!!!!!!
Until you fire all the diversity hires and trannies and hire what made the classic game good, white and asian men, you can frick off.
This actually looks good. To all idiots in thread saying >muh take away and give back talents
what in the frick are you expecting they do? do you want to play classes that are totally unrecognizable? they can't add abilities ad infinitum because you fricks will then b***h about ability bloat. You now have freedom to create your own character instead of looking up guides on what abilities to use at what boss.
Will there be *the best* build? of course but that always was the case. This time however you will have the opportunity to make that autistic build that shines 1% of the time or frick around in pvp and surprise people with your build. Fricking finally jesus h christ on a bike.
>only 1 build is ever meta and acceptable
If you raid with anally plugged people then yes but if you frick around with like minded people now you have freedom in how you want to play the game.
>rando is discombobulated because his 6 piece live puzzle is about to be replaced with something that requires 12 brain cells instead of only 3
You'll survive this anon, i have faith in you. If all else fails just google it and other people will do the thinking for you this time as well.
I hope we see come Caverns of Time in Dragonflight.
It would be shitty otherwise. >Siege of Quel'thalas >Siege of Dalaran >Battle of Karazhan (raid) >Grim Batol (Night of the Dragon) >idk what else lmaooooo
WoW is so fricking old and yet blizzard still hasn't figured out how people are playing their game and how to make it more fun.
The solution is so goddamn simple it's infuriating.
>most of the talents are 0/1
So it's the same as the talent system MoP introduced, but now it looks like the old talent system. Yes, truly, WoW is saved.
It's even worse, most of those are basic fricking abilities you should have by default like fricking Gouge and Blind, plus some shitty +1% Stamina nodes between then to waste your points.
>Stamina nodes between then to waste your points.
You're saying that as if you had points to waste before with the previous system. Thought you could slam all your points into everything and have every ability on the board? ever heard of the word "choice"? Fricking swear they made the fisherprice choose-your-ability 6 row 3 column talent system because they think you're all fricking idiot and you're proving them right. They are making a big fricking mistake with this talent tree system if even 30% of the playerbase is as moronic as you c**ts.
>but now it looks like the old talent system
No it doesn't, the old talent system didn't force you down a line every time, you could pick 95% of side talent or previous talents freely
MoP. They dumbed it down hardcore because the talent trees were getting bloated to frick.So instead of pruning gay shit like "1% chance of spell hit" they threw the baby out with the bath water and gave us 1 talent every 15 levels.
Took me a few minutes to build what will probably be the optimal single-target builds for all three specs. Predictably it involves cutting out every single bit of utility and quality-of-life you can in the skill three. Who could have guessed
This is going to be what kills it for a lot of people.
I'm a casual, and if I were to play this I would pick the movement speed, grappling hook, and no-energy Sap talents and shit like that to make the 90% of the game where I'm on my own much better.
But then the moment you do go into a dungeon or Battleground and things go south for even a minute, the shitflinging begins because "15% movement speed lol fricking noob".
The game is at odds with itself.
If it's like current WoW you will be able to respec almost freely so you can always have the optimal setup for the current situation, so you're not actually making any meaningful choices.
90% of these new trees are just things we have now removed from your character and rationed back to you as a "choice" every level.
Why on earth did they keep that rancid supercharged anima combo point shittery from Shadowlands as a talent?
Truly one of the worst ideas they've ever had. They had left Rogues alone for so long and I was grateful because 'super-combo-points' is the sort of dumbass thing they come up with.
It undermines the entire 'build to five and make a choice' gameplay loop of the class you now have to babysit this 'special' combo point. At least you can completely avoid talenting into this shit.
'Shadow Mist' who the frick came up with this: you fart out a purple cloud and have to chase it down like a Monk orb, and it gives you a special super-duper combo point. Good god almighty kill me
classic and tbc already solved the "you're forced to use the best spec" by letting every spec have unique buffs and debuffs. It's why people brought afflic locks to raids even though they didn't do the most damage or why you'd want at least one marksmen hunter.
I really don't know why they got rid of class and spec identity in wotlk
They should have made all the class trees connected. Just one giant tree where you can mix talents and your spec/role gets decided by an algorithm that calculates your effectiveness in various fields. It would give way for more types of specializations.
>All the talent that made Legion is gone >All the original devs are gone except for Ion >All the lore writers that matter are gone >Chris Metzen is gone >Company pays it's employees in honour points and they sleep in the car park >Competent devs refuse to be underpaid and worked to death to maintain an old game >No self respecting dev wants to be a glorified repair man >The Californian bubble culture has caused a dead sea effect now only twittertards are left and in charge
WoW is objectively in the worst place it's ever been, it's been hijacked by hyper partisan weirdos with no talent and it's objectively terrible to play. The new race only appeals to trannies, second life jomo enjoyers and furry paypigs. The talent points are thinly veiled depth, while there will always be cookie cutter builds the talents are so shallow that the point of the whole system is lost.
>it gets better when you git gud*! >*spend $120 on wow tokens to get a legendary and gear boost so you don't get oneshot
think I'll play something else, thanks
i am in this ride since beta dipshit, saw all of the original good concepts getting mauled off the game because of Tigole's gang and the morons who ruined the company's culture of this shit.
He was the soul and the heart of the game whether you like it or not. Garrosh will always be remembered, no one will rememeber any of troonylands characters and they will be long since forgotten when Garrosh's name is still known to the players. Cities like Suramar, the writing for them, that was Chris. The world building? That was Chris. All these things that people take for granted. It's like waking up one day with half of the gradiant missing on all the colours around you. Whether you like it or not he defined the game.
>Garrosh will always be remembered
True, but for the purposes of him being a dumpster fire of wasted potential with inconsistent writing (e.g. cata stonetalon mountains vs everything else) and actively working against his own goals
If I could have young crazy rock and roll chris metzen back i'd take it in a heartbeat, but he was slipping from 2007
i am in this ride since beta dipshit, saw all of the original good concepts getting mauled off the game because of Tigole's gang and the morons who ruined the company's culture of this shit.
now, get off your horse mazed Black person.
and yet you played it anyway 'oldgay'
WoW movement feel shits on FF14 movement feel and that is an ice cold fact
if the shitty quality of the screenshot didn't tip you off, it's from a video
it's so easy to trigger minigamers, they know their little side activity is an unbalanced piece of shit that's only played by like 5% of the playerbase so they want new people to bully but people are too smart to fall for the trap
>Hey Blizzard, we want a talent system close to classics or with some depth like in PoE, maybe something inbetween >Blizzard proceeds to take baseline abilities, put them in the talent trees, has souless filler and then with out irony calls it a day
New abilities should be making up those talent points, talents should be enchancing already existing abilities, this was an opportunity to create something wacky and fun. Instead it looks sterile, corporate and devoid of any genuine thought.
well good news because hybrid is back on the menu judging by the priest talent tree
https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AABsQAFQGYGRVAWQogayEBAABmOVUUBEFRFYRKAwJBQ
A skill tree? That's cute.
>+health >+health >+health >+health >+health
The wow ones need a lot of work but PoE is the definition of a filler talent tree
Need something in the middle where theres no arbitrary filler nodes but still interesting passives
>The wow ones need a lot of work but PoE is the definition of a filler talent tree
Not necessarily. You do need those travel/filler +Stats nodes to fulfill prerequisites. Champion and Witch, for example, have both notoriouus difficulty in getting enough Int and Str, respectively, to comfortably fulfill those prerequisites by the skill tree alone.
And if you're really dissatisfied with these small travel nodes, you can alter their effect with Timeless israeliteels or other israeliteels that allow you to change their basic effect or to allocate disconnected nodes. Or use cluster israeliteels and have a big chunk of your build be defined by those nodes instead.
honestly embarrassing to see the same people who were happy about the streamlining of the talent trees suddenly changing their tune and praising blizzard for putting talent trees in the game again. it is shameless, even, and a wilful act of delusion.
"hey we're going to re-implement something we cut because uuuuh stop asking questions" >core skills like interrupts are talents
they've already set this up to be badly received so they can go "you think you do but you don't" again. blizzard literally only has 2 tricks they keep reusing over and over again and you frickers keep falling for it every time
99% of that is useless filler shit, and you know it. It's there to act as a dopamine boost "I spent 27 hours straight farming mobs Now unlimited power is MINE!! (+1% crit)"
If it's not useful the tree isn't actually that large, simple as.
Let me know when WoW puts melee bleed effectiveness in the mage tree, until then PoE is a joke
It's funny seeing people seethe about travel nodes in the thread that shits on blizzard for having zero variety
truly shows how utterly brainless the average wow player is lmao
While it is true that there are a handful of skill tree "skeletons" for build archetypes in PoE, there is a lot of variety. Depending on the gear available to you, what content you do and even personal preferences, there is a whole lot of room for variation even within builds.
all im really saying is theres a tonne of fat that could be trimmed, but too many PoE gays are married to their giant jpeg and would sperg the frick out
This is something I have thought about for quite a while, too, but I'm not entirely sure I agree. The tree isn't perfect by any means, but they have added so many things that depend on the current size of the tree (jewels that transform nodes in radius, add stats to them, or let you take them without being connected) and there has been so much finetuning done for the "travel nodes" (pathing for stat requirements etc.) that trimming it down right now would take away a whole lot of complexity and interesting interactions. 10 years ago, maybe it would be a different story.
Personally I really fell in love with PoE's tree when I realized I can stick 3 Might of the Meeks next to the fat Health/Evasion nodes in Scion's tree.
I hate the POE tree because you need a frickin stupid talent build planner and build prepared before you even start playing or you legit just wasted your time
the onlything wrong with the default ui is a lack of info on certain things. everybody uses custom uis anyways though so im not sure what that matters.
im not mad about them overhauling the UI, i'm mad about them removing all the soul
The screenshots they showed looked like the UI for one of those chink mobile games that knocked off WoW's original UI, just flat shit colours and no more small details anywhere
I had the exact same issue with the overhauled nameplates, yes the functionality was better but visually they look soulless and the only addon i found to bring them back to how they used to look only sort of does it
some trees are really strong (Holy Priest, Resto, Assasination) while others are garbage (Survival hunter so far)
The reason is those with pruned abilities, mostly HEALERS who don't have kicks or CC, are now getting them back and really benefit from the base talent tree.
Others just have good talents and easy to access
while some other talents have absolute garbage talents forced to get JUST to get the good ones.
Ahh yes, a skill tree that lets me make 3 choices before reaching the bottom, one of the choices merging back into the same path.
Maybe try harder next time blizz, this actually limits builds even more than the current system.
>Adding talent trees >keeping the way the classes play exactly the fricking same
Black person who cares, this shit is never going to work if they make you press buttons in a certain order.
Like wow, my first unholy talent is Festering Strike? I can't wait to use a dogshit ability that hits like a wet noodle and does literally nothing unless you use press a bunch of other shit afterwards. Can I choose something else? Oh wait, no I can't, it's a required talent for everything else.
Yeah I pick a Death Knight suffused with the unholy power of the damned to watch a debuff build until I'm forced to press button 3 in the sequence Just like every class you moron c**t
>unholy = disease because green = disease >death knights having anything to do with diseases >disease spec = put debuff until number = 5 then press next button just like every single spec
You're moronic and gay, I could write a better class on your dad's shit stained underwear
Unholy is disease because WoW undeath is tied to a plague and from the start they had diseases moron >implying wounds act like combo points
ur genuinely a moron. no wonder you picked up a DK
2 years ago
Anonymous
>implying I play this game
I used DK as an example because it's one of the only classes with available talent trees to look at, you mongoloid.
wounds act like combo points
You're fricking moronic, all classes play the same, you press a certain predetermined sequence of 5 buttons to make the DPS number go up. Even if being an Unholy DK WAS some gay watered down shit like spread disease, at no point does it feel like you're actually doing that while playing the fricking game. No, it feels like you're pressing Sequence Input No. 1 with different art for the icon.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>You're fricking moronic, all classes play the same
wrong >you press a certain predetermined sequence
wrong
thanks for playing. Maybe next time actually read the tree before posting?
2 years ago
Anonymous
>wrong
haha
good one
Enjoy your resource management game
2 years ago
Anonymous
>enjoy actual depth
thanks I will
Did you seriously think that resource management is going to sound bad or something?
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Did you seriously think that resource management is going to sound bad or something?
t. accountant
2 years ago
Anonymous
Im sorry you hate RPGs
2 years ago
Anonymous
>DDR accounting simulator forced on you by devs is "roleplaying"
You like roleplaying as an autist or something?
>never having to even look at your mana bar is LE GOOD
Then why have it? Most caster classes are literally only limited by the global CD and nothing more.
Explain to me why you think a classical RPG should give each class its own speshul resource
2 years ago
Anonymous
>never having to even look at your mana bar is LE GOOD
Then why have it? Most caster classes are literally only limited by the global CD and nothing more.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Mana is a healer resource, DPS and tank specs can go on indefinitely and play around their special resources which are not on a timer to be close to useless.
2 years ago
Anonymous
WoW was more fun when all ranged relied on mana and you needed hybrids like shadowpriests, shaman and druids to round it out with bonus mana regen abilities for the party
2 years ago
Anonymous
>WoW was more fun when you had to find specs instead of players
No thanks. I like having bonuses, not requirements.
2 years ago
Anonymous
you are wrong.
Bring the player not the class forced blizzard to bring every spec to dps parity instead of letting everyone have their niche which means theres now ALWAYS a best class for each role and frick everyone else.
your way of thinking is why you get bullshit like all melee slots being sub rogues for whole raid tiers
2 years ago
Anonymous
oh no, everyone can perform and compete instead of being there to meet quotas, the horror
just remove 2/3 of your abilities from your action bar and go do random heroics to feel special or something
2 years ago
Anonymous
did you not read what i just typed moron
NOBODY is allowed to come besides the meta class and spec while doing progression now
2 years ago
Anonymous
>did you not read what i just typed moron
Yes, I did. What about it? Let me read it again. Oh, look, it didn't change anything. Your statement is still completely moronic. >NOOOOO BUT THEY FILLED SLOTS WITH 1 SPEEECC AAAAAH
That was a case of them failing to balance the specs DPS. If they're balanced then having different specs will bring in small buffs that benefit everyone (though it still won't be a pre-req to do the content). This is NOT an excuse to make bloodlust shaman exclusive again, or make warrior shouts give +50% melee damage or something.
>NOBODY is allowed to come besides the meta class and spec while doing progression now
Maybe Mythic raiding guilds going for world first. On chill guilds they'll let you in as long as you pull DPS above X and do the mechanics.
2 years ago
Anonymous
You could outdps people in chill guilds anyway under the old system anyway though?????
Your post makes no fricking sense, any guild taking raiding seriously follows the meta dictated by world first guilds, do you even play the game???
2 years ago
Anonymous
>guilds taking raiding seriously do stuff seriously
Are you reading your own posts you fricking moron? YES, only tryhards will tryhard. Stay the frick away from tryhards. The content is doable without them.
2 years ago
Anonymous
yeah and bring the player not the class was balanced around tryhards, if you want to just play for fun half your tools were taken away or homogenized and given to everyone because of that philosophy, it completely changed raiding for the worse
Consider that in the past you could bring sub optimal players because they had abilities good for your raid, now nobody wants to bring a bad dps because they bring nothing but dead weight, which means less people are allowed to raid, which means they either enter LFR or just quit which sucks more players out of the game
Removing class synergies is one of the defining points of where the game started going downhill
2 years ago
Anonymous
I completely disagree with you. I don't think shit players should be brought in and made to feel special because they picked a shit spec nobody wants to touch with a 10 foot pole. Have every spec in the game be able to perform its main duty, then give them stuff on top of that that doesn't make them go crazy with their numbers, but makes them versatile (like current pally blessings for example).
2 years ago
Anonymous
>I don't think shit players should be brought in
Neither did blizzard apparently! so now we're stuck with LFR instead of making the game more social and keeping a larger amount of the playerbase invested
And everyones main duty shouldn't be DPS, it makes the game completely shallow and boring, bring back support classes that actually focus on helping the team without being healbots
2 years ago
Anonymous
hated being a buff bawd
lemme smash
2 years ago
Anonymous
If you're in a chill guild you can literally smash, even in classic
2 years ago
Anonymous
What are you talking about
Non rogues/warriors do frick all damage in classic
2 years ago
Anonymous
anon if you're in a chill casual guild i guarantee half the warriors and rogues are absolute spergs who can't even hit their buttons off cooldown
Not to mention if you go to BC where people still spit at ret pallys they weren't even bad, and if you could seal twist you destroyed people
2 years ago
Anonymous
>it works if your rogues are literally licking windows instead of playing the game
lmao
2 years ago
Anonymous
you must be a different guy than the one who was complaining before because thats the definition of chill casual guilds that need 25 or 40 warm bodies just to fill spots
2 years ago
Anonymous
Get into a raiding guild that's not doing Mythic and make some friends. And why supporting other players should be mutually exclusive with performing one of the three main duties? Play a Ret pally and give blessings arouns for example while still DPSing.
2 years ago
Anonymous
It means you cant be a ret pally that turns to the person next to you and says "you do double damage for the next 20 seconds enjoy" and then start spamming flash of light on the tank for the next 30 seconds because the healers are getting low, saving the raid from a wipe
Because blizzard wants to balance you around being somehow equal with 20+ other dps specs
It was most noticeable with shadowpriests because you were topping everyone off with mana so they loved you, synergy is really really fun but its impossible to give people fun things if they all have to also do the same dps because that creates imbalances
A lot of the skills rely entirely on picking up an other baseline ability elsewhere and unconnected in the tree or they do nothing. This seems like awful design
>31 points in the class tree >30 points in the spec tree >infinite possibilities >1 week after release >these are the 3 mathematically perfect builds for your class >this addon shows us if you're playing something else
leave it to the community to ruin it in 0.3 seconds.
there aren't infinite possibilities. choices later in a tree are predetermined by picking up other abilities elsewhere in the spec or class tree which severely limits what you can pick up already. like getting something that relies on kill command resetting without actually getting the kill command reset skill, or skills that buff kill shot or wildfire bomb but those are abilities you need to pick first
there aren't infinite possibilities. choices later in a tree are predetermined by picking up other abilities elsewhere in the spec or class tree which severely limits what you can pick up already. like getting something that relies on kill command resetting without actually getting the kill command reset skill, or skills that buff kill shot or wildfire bomb but those are abilities you need to pick first
yeah nah, i got to endgame when they revamped it to 10 acts and the whole time it was +stat +stat +stat
The tree is moronic and is almost all filler until you reach the ends with 2 or 3 good nodes along the way
It's a fricking meme how people hold this shit up as good design, you could slice it in half and nothing of value would be lost
actually unironically based moron
using brain is for women and homosexuals, what kind of fricking nerd would spend time learning all this shit and crafting their own build, just copy your favorite eceleb build and claim absolute expertise on the topic
that's the gigachad energy
The problem with mmos in general is that they're constantly evolving, so even when you get content that's good it's only a matter of time until they frick it up.
I'm a FFXIV player and I've never played WoW past level like 50, but I unironically hope Dragonflight is really good and causes a FFXIV exodus. YoshiP and his goons need a wake up call and decide wether they're going to appeal to mentally impaired casuals or people who play video games.
i dont know how can anyone see these new talent trees and think its better, its genuinely worse, they put the tools you already use and lock them behind paths that make you sacrifice some of them in order to get the important core skills.
lvl in nu-wow will never feel good no matter what, blizz and retail andies don't understand why classic chads enjoy the old talent trees and pacing, and giving a lvl 10 rogue CoS, shadowstep, shadow dance, fan of knives etc is just unrewarding, it used to be an absolute world shattering moment when you finally unlocked cloak of shadows for example... let alone fan of knives
you're not meant to just have all of those basically at the start, you have to suffer a certain amount of time before you truly understand and appreciate how important the abilities are
whats the point of talents when people will just use presets they look up on icy veins. Damage meter and its consequences have been a disaster on MMO genre
ironically it would be even worse without damage meters
If you're playing your own build and mogging everyone else on dps they'll kick you for not playing the "right" build since they have no idea you're carrying the raid
nonsense. People are conditioned to associate numbers with skill. Damage meter completely steered class and game design
you can look at games like vermintide. Nobody gives a frick what build you go for as long as you finish the mission
>Nobody gives a frick what build you go for as long as you finish the mission
And therin lies the problem, because WoW devs tune every fight with enrages or dangerous adds so harsh that every tiny scrap of dps matters, and people just pull numbers from their combat log and submit to world of logs for epeen wank anyway
and yet damage numbers elitism trickles down to lower difficulty content to the point you have people sperg out about not minmaxing in +6 even though you can do that shit with all dps players asleep. Wow is just not enjoyable to play, people unironically play it as a chore simulator
i've never seen anyone sperg out in low M+ unless there was a wipe, i'm sorry that this anecdotally happened to you tho
>every tiny scrap of dps matters
How fricking bad are you that you're barely getting through content my dude? PVE is easy unless you're doing cutting edge content.
do you know how many fricking 1% wipes i've had on mythic prog? how about spine of deathwing heroic where you had to kill each plate in a single round?
If you're denying blizzard tuning content beyond what top percentile players can hit until they've farmed enough gear you didn't play the game
2 years ago
Anonymous
>unless there was a wipe
sure it happens more often after wipes because this is when people start pointing fingers. In casual content wipes because of lack of dps happen almost never, 99% its just people failing mechanics so they use overgearing as a crutch. Pugging in this game is just miserable
2 years ago
Anonymous
>do you know how many fricking 1% wipes i've had on mythic prog? how about spine of deathwing heroic where you had to kill each plate in a single round?
That's what I said. Required in cutting edge content. If you don't like that go play 1 difficulty lower, then you can play suboptimal stuff without issues.
>every tiny scrap of dps matters
How fricking bad are you that you're barely getting through content my dude? PVE is easy unless you're doing cutting edge content.
balance goes out the fricking window for at least 2 years. They're still prototyping this shit, and it's supposed to be released in a few months?
Not to mention they made a furry-friendly race that can transform info a fricking dragqueen elf. And you just fricking know how broken and overpowered that garbage woke-class will be in order to bump up the class numbers.
frick you and frick everyone who still pays blizzard for this shit game
WoW is semi-balanced towards the end of expansions, and then they frick it up in order to (attempt to) one-up the previous designers.
however its different this time, as they're effectively starting from scratch by reintroducing talents. The first 6 months at least will require weekly balance patches to remotely iron out bullshit builds.
>Have you taken a look at these talents? It's not really different from now.
You must either be blind or moronic.
>Worst of all is that they're clearly split into pve and pvp.
You mean best of all. PVE talents will always be min-maxed anyways, PVP talents are all that really matter.
What's the difference between choosing a couple of options from the left row now and in dragonflight? Because i was reading these and this doesn't change anything when there aren't real options or decisions to make.
You must be moronic. You can be an uholy DK without chains of ice whatsoever, for example. I'm sure PVEgays will be happy that you can get rid of a "useless PVP skill" for raiding like that.
I don't understand why so many people like this. They took away all of the abilities you already have and put them on the tree instead. Why not make new abilities instead of taking away existing ones?
But they could have simply give improved version of existing abilities and it would have been much better than taking them away. There are hundreds of ways they could have done this better and yet they chose the laziest and most boring way to do it. That's why I haven't bought shadowlands because trannies simply don't have souls and they cannot be creative like mentally stable humans. Its a fricking travesty what they did to WoW
>spend months trying to come up with, balancing, test, etc. these talent trees >9/10 people will literally just copy from Icy Veins and similar sites and never use the trees again
Great job, Blizzard. What an excellent thing to dedicate so much time to!
I switch talents and soulbinds all the time depending on the activity I am planning.
Cookie cutter builds are for players who run only one type of content.
The problem with WoW will be all of the extra systems on top of this talent tree stuff. Like sneedolands had covenants, soulbinds, legendaries, etc... they just can't stop making systems. They WILL add extra systems on top that make this extra gay.
This is meant to be the first expansion where they don't add a bunch of moronic systems. They seem to have finally understood that it makes no sense to constantly reinvent borrowed power systems every 1-2 years that renders everything previously completely redundant and useless.
However, this also means that it looks like Dragonflight might be the most featureless and boring expansion ever. The game is meant to come out in the next 6 months and so far we only know about talent tree revamps, profession revamps, 1 race-locked class with 2 specs, GW2 copy/paste dragon riding, 8 dungeons and 1 raid.
>WAAAAH GIVE ME MORE OPTIONS >look, we gave you more options >BUT CAN I MAKE IT KINDA LIKE THE OLD ONE? >yeah sure why not >AHA NOTHING HAS CHANGED
????????????
Keep skill trees in dedicated RPGs, not MMOs. FF14 unironically has the right of it on this one, if you're going to put fake choices for class progression behind a skill-tree or points system that really aren't choices at all, then don't even give me the choice, just give me the skills you want me to use and make me play the class the way you're wanting me to play it.
>so lets take 90% of the class skills and just connect them and call it a skill tree!
lol no, WoW is dog shit and I hope wow Black folk are shot in the next mass shooting.
you know what else makes pvp awful? 15 min fights that go no where because blizzard designed one role to be unable to be reasonably taken down in a 1v1. If both you and the healer are of similar skill issues there is no way for you to get an upper hand on them and if your class has no good self sustain you're just going to lose very very slowly
gay who hasn't played since like Cata here. >Are there only two trees now? >talent point tax to get abilities that used to be baseline >only one route will allow you to get the left or right talents at the bottom
I didn't like WoW that much but I found BGs to be heaps of fun. Particularly the tug of war one where its just a fricking road and everyone throws themselves at eachother. Athran or something it was called.
I played unholy DK and spread my plague things on literally everyone. It was a lot of fun just melting literally like 40 players at once.
Too little too late
came here to post this
Same
WoD was 8 years ago. it's not too a little too late it's rotten already.
My first thought when saw the thread
Yup it's dead to me tbh, they'd have to make a literal masterpiece for me to touch a Blizzard product again.
this
and this
Going from Skill trees to choice trees was the best thing blizzard has ever done, and maybe one of the best ideas for MMO gaming in general. Here's why:
Talent trees, are basically never a choice. They are the ILLUSION of choice, from vanilla all the way to the end of cataclysm, do you know how often you had to respec as a PvE shadow priest? Or any other class? Basically never. This fantasy that everyone skills different is just that: a fantasy. Everyone skills the same PvP build, everyone skills the same PvE build. At best you get builds that end in: "And then you have 3 points over, put them wherever, it doesn't matter".
Even worse, back then skill trees were full of "increase damage by X" talents that were just always an obvious choice. So you might as well not have them, and there are still such talents in the new trees.
With skill choices, in pandaria alone hat me switch talents more than all other expansions combined. The choice between a short cooldown low speed buff, vs a long cooldown high speed bufff vs allowing you to remove movement impairs, is a WAY more meaningful choice than anything a skill tree has ever had to offer.
The only upside of a skill tree is that while leveling you get something to click every level, vs every 10 levels.
the illusion of choice and feeling of building your character is way cooler than >pick 1 of 3 choices every 15 levels frick off
I hate that they balanced WoW around the endgame and rushing players there as soon as possible instead of continuously adding meaningful content spread out everywhere
What good is "building your character" if you end up with the same shit as everyone else as well, what good is that?
I'd much rather have milestone choices that are ACTUALLY optional, instead of forced, than a giant ass talent tree in which I have to pick every single optimal damage talent and have no actual choice in what I want to pick.
The choice system was absolutely superior.
>I must pick optimal talent in tree
>but not in another system because...
If you insist on min maxing you will min max in every talent system
New skill trees?
The illusion of free will .jpg, i bet even with the most optimiced build rogue still suck in dragonflight
>The illusion of free will
this. no matter how many choices they give you, there really will only be one path to the bottom
>The illusion of free will
This has never and will never be an argument, free will is only an "illusion" if you intentionally take it away from yourself by being a brainless moron who copies builds without actually thinking about anything or taking situationality into account. People had to figure those builds out to begin with, world first prog groups are constantly fricking around with talents trying to find the strongest thing for each situation. Also, every time something new becomes meta it didn't just come out of thin air, people used their free will to experiment and discover a new strongest build.
Not even defending WoW, just defending character building as a concept
>experiment
they throw them all into a sim and let math figure it out
>the entire game is static target dummy DPS
Wanna know how I know you have no fricking clue what you're talking about?
anon stop pretending sims don't exist
>b-but arms warrior sims were shit and the top guilds still brought them and they topped meters
they do their own simming in private
>the entire game is static target dummy DPS
That's why you just run multiple sims with different settings what are you even talking about
It's still not covering the nuances of original fights
If you netneck builds you're playing the game wrong
Doesn't even matter. All you have to do is look at warcraft logs and see the talent builds people are using. No need for a sim, the best builds will just rise to the top unless you are in a top guild that does fights before there are logs
>the system is bad because if you use it wrong it's boring
why is Ganker like this
>It's still not covering the nuances of original fights
It doesn't need to, for that's for the player to do. Simming just gets the arbitrary and outdated crap out of the way.
>for that's for the player to do.
So you're agreeing with me now? Okay
Yes. I agree that the new talents are just an illusion since everyone is going to run cookie cutter builds in a month or so from the release.
>backpedaling
I accept your concession
Which means everything is fine because the best builds for given encounters are discovered by people innovating away from meme guide builds
I'm glad you agree with me
>backpedaling
Not an argument, thanks for playing.
I accept your concession
You keep saying that because you have no argument. There are no meaningful choices in the talent trees, only cookie cutter builds will prevail, as per usual. Keep seething though.
sound like they want to play a spreadsheet, not a game
when did video games just become a bunch of middle managers scratching their balls over optimal builds in less than a real world use case? the game is meant to be played and meant to be fun. if it's neither then why bother?
>sound like they want to play a spreadsheet, not a game
the leader of liquit (who got 5th place in a 2 man race recently, lmao) said just that. He doesn't care if it's just a bunch of stick figures and squares dancing around on screen he just likes planning everything out
>when did video games just become a bunch of middle managers scratching their balls over optimal builds in less than a real world use case?
When everyone started getting upset about others getting ahead of them,
I'd like to hear a solution, because "netdecking" has always and will always be a thing. No game in the history of fricking forever has been able to make every character building choice viable; there is ALWAYS a best way.
The solution is to not do it
Be part of the solution and discover the new builds that the next wave of morons will netneck
>the game will get solved soon after inception and there will only be one viable build for your rogue
Try actually reading my post
This isn't a thing
If it ever does happen, it's a garbage guild with fake tryhards and you shouldn't be playing in it anyways
Stop making up moronic boogeymen
>Stop making up moronic boogeymen
I love this response, deliberately ignoring what's been going on for years that everyone knows about. Why? Who knows, maybe you're just that desperate to think you're right.
Nope. If your guild is full of fake tryhard shitters, pick a different one. Not an argument.
Can't when all the raiding guilds demand you spec one specific way to maximize DPS and healing. That's how it's been since Vanilla. Why are you so desperate to rewrite history?
>more boogeyman shit
>le ebin meme word will defeat you!
If that's all you can do, then you lost this debate. Deny history all you want, it won't change for you.
Deny history all you want, it won't change for you.
And with that, the shitposter is broken.
Seethe all you want, your revisionist history will never be real
That shit was never universal, try playing in non-shit guilds
>That shit was never universal
True, it stopped when the talent trees were removed. And it will start back up again when the trees come back.
>I don't know what the word "never" means
Why are you so desperate to claim something that's extremely well-documented and know to have happened is really fake news and never occurred? You sound like a Holocaust denier.
Why are you so desperate to claim that something that only happened in garbage guilds full of unskilled tryhard morons was something universal to the entire game?
Try actually reading my posts
try reading mine
LOL so now all of those top raiding guilds were "tryhard garbage loser moron buggadawuggamomugga!"?
the non shit guilds DEMAND you to use meta builds to give you a spot
the non shit ones that tolerate meme trees in the group will constantly make fun of you and pester you to switch even if you have orange logs almost every time
t. has been in both
No, the non-shit guilds will look at your DPS, not your builds. Stop raiding with morons
a good player can't do good dps with a shit build and a bad player can't do good dps with a good build. The game isn't a skillcheck, it's a gearcheck.
>play survival hunter
>consistently top 3 dps
>morons still telling me to go marksman because its le ranged and le better
>cant switch guild anymore because literally no one is accepting survival hunters or melees
Anon is right, if you dont follow the meta or know some officer somewhere you are SOL because every GM and officer has his head up his own ass. Some shittier guilds even try to tell you exactly what talents to use on what fight
Surv is the current meta wtf are you talking about. It's better than all the other specs at ST and AoE because the set bonus is busted
Greentext is from Nathria and early Chains when I ran out of gold printed in WoD
Well yes. Playing surv back then was just trolling. The DPS was mediocre and brings no utility at all. You only get few melee spots in a raid, and bringing a hunter which can play ranged spec that does more damage than surv is moronic.
I accept your concession
Wanting to bring a DH which brings darkness, an AoE stun, and a 5% magic buff to all casters or a DK which brings AMZ and grips over a survival hunter which brings nothing is moronic. There were plenty of viable non-META options, surv is not one of them. It was literally trolling the group of course no one wanted to play with you.
You of course realise your personal dps isn't the reason people aren't taking you as someone who chooses the be in melee as a pure dps class with two ranged options right? It's almost like you're basically intentionally choosing to shit up a raid comp given dps are a dime a d dozen, the game is melee heavy and ranged favored. Not to mention most melee classes can run back up tank or heals if someone is sick/busy or flakes.
So basically follow the meta or die? Yeah
the meta is enforced by the devs by making mechanics that punish melee uptime. A good melee player can do even more damage from range since their uptime will be higher (and the ranged specs are usually stronger, melee are brought only for buffs)
Just don't raid. Simple as.
I took it one step further and just don't play it at all
No. I was saying those officers with their heads up their asses' have to consider the 19 other people and how they all fit together to make a raid.
You as a hunter, are a pure dps spec so I can only bring you for dps are choosing to take a limited melee slot despite having TWO ranged options. This means I now have to sit a melee (who can't take a ranged slot), what if this melee is the off-tank or an off heals and they get stroppy? Why would I ever risk that for you?
This again is all taking place in a game with too many melee specs that actively punishes melee for existing.
>So basically follow the meta or die? Yeah
Frick no
>survival hunter
>has a learning disability
Checks out.
Raid comps have nothing to do with the meta you mongoloid. Survival could be the best fricking spec in the game and it's still not getting taken for prog because everything about it is antithetical to effective comp building.
Assassination gets garrotte for free.
>Raid comps have nothing to do with the meta you mongoloid
>Survival could be the best fricking spec in the game and it's still not getting taken for prog because everything about it is antithetical to effective comp building
In other words, it's not part of the meta, you absolute fricking moron. And how could something be "the best spec in the game" if it's, by your definition, not viable? Do you even think about this shit before posting?
Anon is 'the meta' in the room with us right now? Is it speaking to you?
But seriously this is not a hard concept to grasp, melee bad.
If you have to option to not be melee but choose to do it you're going to have to justify that, either by your spec having some special utility (like leader of the pack or windfury totem) or by providing utility to your raid (being willing and able to offtank/off heal) and even then traditionally feral and enhancement (and now survival) are underrepresented because most of the time the tradeoff is never worth just not being ranged. Given that hunters are pure dps and offer no flexability to the raid and spec-wise you offer no utility to the raid why would someone ever bring a survival hunter?
Yes, HAVING GREAT UTILITY CAN MAKE A MELEE CLASS USEFUL, AND THEREFORE PART OF THE *META*. SURVIVAL IS NOT PART OF THE *META* BECAUSE ALL IT OFFERS IS DAMAGE, WHICH RANGED CLASSES CAN ALSO OFFER WHILE BEING SAFER. THAT'S WHAT A FRICKING *META* IS.
>using higher reasoning at all even when it's specifically related to just your raid group with what resources you specifically have available is metahomosexualry
You got me schitzo I guess we should all just use lizard brains when making a raid comp so people on the internet can't scream about a meta.
>Other anon gives a list of reasons why people do or don't do something
>huntard: the meta did this
I fricking can't
>unironically plays survival hunter
Good, I hope nobody invites you to any content. Frick your meme spec.
Ranged DPS is better for everyone because Blizz keeps making content that shits on Melee classes. There are some rare cases in which Melee can do better than Ranged, but they feel very artificial, like they're trying really hard but can't make it natural to give benefits to Melees.
There used to be a downside to ranged, like finite resources and deadzones. Too bad that stopped being a thing.
Because half the ranged classes were supposed to be hybrids
Way to be a disingenuous moronic homosexual and prove you barely play the game. You're saying EVERY raiding guild in the game REQUIRES you to have the best build for your class? Frick off Black person.
This fricking moron too. What? Have you been in two guilds or something? Guild I am in right now allows a couple hunters to run whatever the frick they want, not meta, and they don't give a frick and they blue/purple parse. Maybe your little crowd of homosexuals isn't the only guild?
They might not armory you and find you talent tree to call you shit but if deeps isn't good enough you're getting kicked
>This isn't a thing
If it ever does happen, it's a garbage guild with fake tryhards and you shouldn't be playing in it anyways
Stop making up moronic boogeymen
yes it is moron even the most casual of raiders will talk shit about your talent choices because its not optimal. do you know why mods and Damage meters are fricking looked down on in FFXIV because it becomes a tool for the shittiest of players to judge and ostrisize you because you're not "Playing the meta"
Someone who hates netdecking is just an incompetent engineer, ignoring tools and metrics for the sake of their own ego.
too bad the game and playerbase ignores character building as a concept. the game will get solved soon after inception and there will only be one viable build for your rogue, or you will forever be nerfing your performance against those who take the wowhead.com talent build
>WHAT THE FRICK IS YOUR TREE MAN IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT THE WAY WE WANT YOU'RE NOT RAIDING WITH US!
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
These trees are the definition of "illusion of free will", however. Just look at that shit: you can "pick" between Garrote, Blind, Sap...except that you really want all of them, since not only are they pretty fricking essential to actually playing the class, they are also abilities Rogues used to have as a baseline to begin with. There is no choice to be made here.
World first just pay tokens for better gear to do world first moron
BIS alone won't get you world first clears, moron
Yeah you need to do 24 hours of split runs a week (to get BiS)
>t. I never played wow
lmao
lmao you really don't know how sims works
warlock is not the best ST class yet is the strongest class right now
I swear people talking about wow on Ganker have never played this game
>posts bill nye
opinion discarded.
>world first prog groups are constantly fricking around with talents trying to find the strongest thing for each situation.
You are not a world first raider, and neither is 99% of the playerbase. You do not need to squeeze in an extra 3 DPS and the cookie cutter tree supplied by wowhead or icyveins or your class discord will be good for 99% of situations. You MIGHT have a ST build and an AoE build, but that's about it.
you're talking to low iq ffxiv Black folk, they need asiatic devs to tell them how to play the game
*pulls up icy veins*
*copies meta spec*
*reads class guide*
*doesn’t deviate from anything at all*
> you're talking to low iq ffxiv Black folk, they need asiatic devs to tell them how to play the game
Brainlet
>but muh fun finding the best build
All the progress guilds WILL make you use their meta builds or you are fricked, creativity dies with optimal numbers.
This. Brainless zoomers that can't handle talent tress need to die.
This. The problem runs much deeper, it's not just the simplicity of the modern talent tree. It's because of the community's obsession with minmaxing and using autistically simulated net builds. Even if your dps is fine, not having a specific talent build will get you branded as a noob and you will be kicked from the group. This is part of the cancer that killed mmorpgs in general. It's fricking over, it's time to move on
MMOs? You mean any and every game that gives you a choice period. There is always a best spell, always a best armor piece, always a best passive.
That by itself isn't the problem. The reason it's an issue in MMOs specifically is because your access to the high end content is gated not just by whether you have the ability to clear it, but by whether other people looking at you THINK you have the ability to clear it.
what about runescape
You wont get into boss groups/raids with shit gear or if you can pray flick and die all the time
Or just do 95% of the content that doesn't require another person or play RS3 which is 99.999% solo. I think theres literally only 3 bosses you can't do solo there
Just play Skyrim if you want a solo RPG experience
I pug all the time and I've forgotten quite a few times to change my talents to go into a dungeon as both DPS and tank (and my soulbinds and conduits) and nobody ever batted an eye. Doing Mythic+15s btw, I'm going only for 2500.
Just admit you want to be carried with your snowflake build
rpgs are all about being a snowflake though
All games are the illusion of free will you stupid frick, they're not real
I have the free will to uninstall wow, do you?
People don't have the critical thinking skills to realise the original talent tree was better because you got a point each level and it felt rewarding.
The modern Blizzard devs are min/max dudes (ion was from elitist jerks) who only care about the end game and thought giving you a talent every 15 levels in MOP was a good idea. Levelling became a chore.
this, it's not even about the choice for me. It just feels good to level up and get a point to spend and earn some progression
freedom =/= free will
I can't even imagine what Blizzard would have to do at this point to save not just WoW but any of their games. I am certain there is no one working there with that kind of creative spark.
the janitor has it, but he's too dumb to code
Diablo Immortal already saved the company anon. Its on its way of surpassing Genshin Impact once they are allowed to get in China.
Pooh cant delay the inevitable.
Genshin made many times more money than Immortal during its launch weeks even if you exclude china and unlike Immortal, it has a much more sustainable model and a better relationship with its players.
Immortal will never even come close to Genshin in terms of revenue.
>surpassing Genshin Impact
They insulted papa xi, that shit is never gonna be allowed
genshin is an actual game. Immortal is basically just D3 endgame and D3 is garbage
>genshin is an actual game
The combat was never the issue in WoW anyhow, it's always been literally everything else. If anything the combat was the ONLY thing that was fine (at least for a tab target MMO).
>Effectively the same as the current class but now with less abilities because you don't have enough points to get what you had
It's really incredible how optics matter so much more to normalgays than how things actually are.
>but all rogue specs can get shadow dance now
ok? They could've just made it baseline without this new system.
If you don't know what the frick you're talking about, why even talk? Outlaw has 27-32 abilities it will use from baseline + talent tree
>shadow dance is now a "rogue" spell
got damn
>finds the most optimized tree path and forces it upon every single person or kick
MMO players ruin their own games
This. It's as much the fault of min/maxers as it is Blizzards.
Absolute fricking truth. There's going to be a build guide on Icyveins, day one, and odds are it WILL be the most optimal way to play, making experimentation pointless.
It wasn't the removal of skill trees that made classes a flavorless exercise in conformity, it's the metagayging that says you either roll with the canonized build or get excluded from everything. Youll even have some fat frick that's played one class exclusively for years eyeballing your talents and saying "you can't join this half-ass key group because the internet says you would choose these if you were a world champion (and therefore had an elite team and didn't have to make eclectic situational picks to offset extremely common frickups that I'm certain to make)".
Why frick with MMOs anymore? Beyond me dude.
then the only solution is for all builds to be mediocre and pick the most interesting one that stands out. frick the best dps. remove the meters addons and whatever too.
Anon how should I tell you this
but removing meter addons would make things even worse at this point
theorycrafters will figure out the "optimal" builds just as quickly, post it online and everyone will see it and go "oh you have to have this build"
now without meter addons you can't even say "hey my DPS is fine even with a technically sub-optimal build"
it's going to turn into "you're the reason we wiped because your build is inferior" with no recourse from you to prove it was the braindead meta-build follower with zero skill or spatial awareness
then have the devs build the specs in a way where no matter what talent choice it isn't viable or optimal for just one out of the others, have them all be middle road and design the game around making them work while understanding that its okay to wipe more than once.
as soon as a spec is even 1% better than the alternatives you will be forced to pick it
which by the way is literally impossible to avoid unless you homogenize all classes so much they're just differently colored wizards or fighters
this is not just a dev problem, it's a community problem
you can't tell the community off for playing a game optimally
That's why the classes should be FUN. If the classes are fun nobody will care about a 1% dps loss. RaidBlack folk are not human and do not apply.
You are in a WoW thread there is only raiders and Mythic players. There isn't anything else to do in the game.
There is a VERY simple solution to this problem but both the devs and the players will cry b***h tears about "muh difficulty" if it is ever done Remove enrage as an idea at every level of play that isn't the absolute highest (so remove it from everything that isn't mythic difficulty) and no one will ever point at DPS being the problem ever again
FFXIV did it and it has proven to work since people only b***h at each other for failing mechanics instead or freeloading (which is an entierly different issue to tackle on its own)
>XIV did it and it proved to work
Yoshi could take a giant turd on a plate and the fanbase would ask for seconds. The game is lazy, homogenized to shit and 90% filler and people call it a masterpiece
Did you notice how I never said anything about the quality of the game? Hell, even a broken clock is right twice a day and all that.
If all the devs ever do is look at successes for guidance then they are doomed to fail since they won't recognize when they are setting themselves up to fail
WoW has always had a problem with "ENRAGE" being so omnipresent since it boils every single encounter down to a priority list that is scewed in a way that does not encourage roleplaying or even role fullfilment
>1st, make sure that ENRAGE is avoided by doing deeps
>2nd, survive
>3rd, everything else
Oldschool RPGs always avoided this pitfall by putting the players priority on survival, not racing as fast as they can to the bottom. It's why "MUH DEEPS" has been so ingrained in MMO culture today when that never used to be the case before. It's why being a "Glass cannon" was discouraged by more experienced players since they knew that it came at the cost of survival, but when the cost of survival is not doing enough damage, everyone turns into a "Glass cannon"
Ffxiv has enrage it just really soft and if you hit the enrage, you re really doing a bad job
Is it really enrage when your dps is so dogshit, that the mechanics you haven't seen in months or rbrn years go off, and wipe the group?
That is not true for any of the normal mode content in the game. There are exceptions to this, but enrages only starts being a thing around Extreme tier content and beyond. Even at Extreme you won't hit enrage unless there are atleast 2 people in the content asleep behind the wheel and are not pulling even close to the "average" amount of DPS you can get out of a Job
>proven to work since people only b***h at each other for failing mechanics instead or freeloading
Having a meme dps build in a mmo is freeloading. People still b***h about the same things in WoW even with enrage mechanics. I can't think of any reason why you'd choose to play your class poorly, in a tab targetting MMO there's no dps rotation that can be so fun you'd rather freeload then play properly. If every class has a high risk high reward specc like surrender to madness I'd understand, but removing enrages just because people can't be bothered to do optimal rotations is dumb
It's not about lowering standards for morons, it's that the devs themselves put themselves in a situation where EVERYTHING most deal DPS in some way otherwise the enrage mechanic will be pointless or it will be forced upon players no matter what "spec" they have or how optimally they play their class.
Read:
Just play Final Fantasy 14 then. Literally none of that happens there.
This is only partially true though
Our guild did well enough back in vanilla (twin emps and a few naxx bosses), and we ran a ton of sub-optimal builds.
Blaming the players is shifting the blame away from the developers, they are unironically ways of designing talent trees they can be fun and you can deviate from the meta. There are ways despite them having cookie cutter builds that you can have cool abilities and FUN, these talent trees aren't even talent trees they're literally just abilities you already have with "3+" stam in between. They're absolutely hollow and devoid of any actual choice to begin with. It's clearly an attempt to pander to Classicgays with out actually realizing what people are asking for is something akin to PoE, or there abouts so you can have classes with unique builds. There should be a ton of new abilities, overarching branches, there should be SOMETHING fun not just "spend 1 point to get x baseline abilitiy teehee!" it's fricking shit.
You can't blame the players for the game design
MMOs are fundamentally braindead. a DPS class has one role, make damage number big. Of course there's going to be an optimal way to do this, it's a simple math problem
There is always an optimal way to play every game. That's literally what skill expression is.
All games have a meta, but look at a game like DOTA, where builds become very diverse and they actually work because the game is complex and difficult to map out the optimum path so people are trying new shit all the time
Meanwhile in MMOs all you have to do is make one number go up so you can grind on the dumb npc enemy
>There are not common build paths for DotA heroes
Also, you acting like all MMO's are the same and even with that WoW has multiple builds, gearsets, and individual skill as ways of skill expression. Just like you can't be the number 1 Dota player in the world you will never be the number 1 WoW player because you do not have high enough skill expression to do what they do.
If your only argument is game I play is harder then game you play then what are you even getting at?
Like I said, all games have a meta. The only difference is how rigid they are. In WoW there's basically one talent build to take because the problem you're trying to solve is so simple and linear there's really no room for nuance or disagreement, there's just one objectively optimal build. In more complicated games it's harder to say what the objectively best build is or there might not even be one
Maybe there's some MMOs out there that aren't braindead but I've never seen one
But Dota does have Metas builds for heroes, meta team comps, meta play styles. You are just acting like Dota has real skill expression even though all those MMOs you are talking about have player skill expression which makes the game more difficult at the highest level compared to what they everyday player has to experience just like DoTA.
Your only argument is that since you believe there is more difficulty in DOTA its better then something less difficult. That's fine if you believe that but its def not the point that Dota doesn't have an optimal way to play.
>Like I said, all games have a meta. The only difference is how rigid they are.
Read posts before you reply to them
Okay what is rigid in WoW? Spec and raid comp okay well that exists in DoTA in the form of character select and team composition. Then there is what item build you go in Dota which I would say is gearing choices in WoW. Finally, you have player skill where you actually play your character which of course both games have.
Now what's your belief that one is rigid and the other isn't? It just comes down to the fact you think DoTA is more difficult and that fact means its not rigid like an MMO is.
You have multiple DoTA 2 champs which aren't even played in the pro scene because of how weak they are and you have multiple hero's that have a 70% pick or ban rate or higher. Isn't that rigid?
This isn't a black and white question. WoW is way more rigid than DoTA. WoW has one spec which is objectively best for the job, which you can read online and use and you'll be best for your role, at least when I played it. Because of the nature of the problem this can never really be different, your only task is to make one number higher as you beat on sandbag enemies
That's in no way comparable to some heroes having a 70% pick ban rate, not even close
I used to play Rift and with the talent mixing system there seemed to be more viable builds for different scenarios.
They also had supports which I miss alot, basically buffing team and debuffing the enemy.
its blizz's fault for only giving one optimal way to maximize dps
there is always going to be one optimal way to maximize dps
that's what the definition of a maximum is
>a DPS class has one role, make damage number big
This isn't really the case in M+, utility is often much more important.
what's M+
Mythic+
Dungeons in WoW have difficulty levels: Normal, Heroic and Mythic. After Mythic you have what's called Mythic+ (Mythic+1, Mythic+2, Mythic+3, Mythic+4...), a harder and harder version of the same dungeon. The objective is not only to beat the dungeon, but to do it as quickly as possible.
At some point enemies become so strong, you can't just fight them all and get a good time at the end. That's why utility becomes so important: a class that can stealth your entire party, or can create portals, or allows everyone to walk on water, or can mind control an enemy to throw it off a cliff and kill it instantly, or can move/CC enemies without aggroing them... these abilities are usually much more important than +5% DPS.
surv and destro numbers are so high their utility doesn't really matter at this point
just remove the numbers then
then find a guild that wont be so autistic that they kick you for some wrong talents
For me it's the uninstall tree
the thing killing wow is the dev team and you can't save the game from them
>Freedom until all these subscribed years.
Blizzcucks should suffer.
I play WoW for sex
>it's just the old spec passives rearranged into a tree with three new abilities at the end (one or more of which might be a recycled covenant ability).
Thank you blizzard
>the talent tree is back
at this point just shut off mainline wow and force everyone to play classic
>spend all that time, money and effort to streamline classes only to RETVRN TO TRADITION because roleplaying supermen who have no limitations is boring as shit
>end up redoing skill trees in the worst possible way anyways
It's amazing major investors haven't cashed out this shit company yet
>wants the cup talent at the bottom of the 'rogue tree'
>only one path to get there, forced to take specific talents along the way
>except for one tier which gives you 2 choices, before going back to the same rigid path
WOW SO CHOICES
MUCH VARIETY
It's still better than it used to be
if you believe that then youre the target demographic. thanks for turning classic into min max hell, unironically you saved me alot of time and money by making it clear that the new wave of players werent going to mesh well with the game i used to love.
>lose most of the abilities that have been baseline since fricking vanilla unless you buy them back
>forced to spend talent points on basic defensive abilities which means people just wont take them because they have to sacrifice damage to do so
it's actually much worse than it ever was
>building your class is different than Vanilla
>different is bad because...it just is ok
>should be like Vanilla where druids, paladins and shamans only exist to heal
The issue is not that different = bad, but that the trees are poorly designed.
Telling one of your raiders they have to gimp their build in order to take a CC or Interrupt that's in a shitty spot on the tree when it was previously a baseline ability is fricking bullshit.
Some of the classes have talents that are clearly designed to be stacked with each other, but are in places such that stacking them prevents you from being able to reach the final row or forces you take take extra useless talents, which is also bullshit.
yeah this is some sphere-grid tier "choice"
i simply don't have time for mmos, i'd rather have a run or two in ror or drg with a friend at the end of the day, or a match of asshomosexuals if i can allow myself to get drunk for the night
but i hope wow can make a comeback, there should always be a good mmo on the market
Wow is called wow because when you play it, you say "wow, this sucks!"
As long as WoW token exists it's not.
did they show the hunter trees yet
is survival still stuck as melee
yes
yes
Yup, they will never own up to the failure that is melee survival. MMOChamp is full of semen slurpers praising Blizzard for "sticking to their guns." Hunter died during Legion.
It's the SAME FRICKING SHIT WE HAD
Third and second tier are useless for pve, they just added lines to make you feel good and coom.
Or..."yeah i'll use brain numbing poison when i'm only allowed to use that one or the slow one".
did they managed to ban all of the erp and furries
Is it really though? Almost all of that is shit that you already get from leveling, except now you have to click a button to gain it.
i fixed it.
Honestly? Yeah. Make it all damned connected. If you're gonna ape the PoE mindfrick at least do it right.
How about you go to the fricking roots, and have actual quests to gain new abilities? Remember when levelling was a journey?
That was back when having one character with meaningful progression mattered. Everyone wants a thousand alts nowadays; can you imagine going through a two hour skill quest on every one of them? Frick, getting the voidwalker alone was something I never wanted to do twice.
People don't want a journey, they want to pay to get levelboosted so they can get to the cap as fast as possible and then raidlog for the rest of the expansion.
>and have actual quests to gain new abilities?
that's how you get covenant abilities
>Take out Talent Trees early on
>Put them back in later and say you did a good thing
This is literal Black person Tier thinking.
Also
>Take the AP system and merge it into the talent tree system is now... LE GOOD!
You Black folk need help.
>>Take the AP system and merge it into the talent tree system is now... LE GOOD!
You do realize you get all the points for your talent tree while leveling, right? (alternating between the two trees, 1 point per level after level 10 or something)
AP is just levelling with a different name, imbecile.
>Hmmm how do we make the player feel like they're levelling their character without having to make any new content? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Except AP was an infinite grind, leveling is a ~10 hour roadblock to get to the endgame content. I'm starting to think you never played the endgame of Legion and BFA and you're trying really hard to shit on something you have no idea how it works.
Are you fricked in the head or something? Use your brain.
>Except AP was an infinite grind
Yes, infinite grind for zero effort, exactly the kind of shit lazy devs enjoy making.
>leveling is a ~10 hour roadblock to get to the endgame content
And the endgame content is just levelling another number but more boring. You're stupid.
WoW and these low effort shit MMOs will never be good as long as they do this moronic outdated system where you just select someone and press a button to do X damage. This kind of a game will always be figured out by a computer or a moronic autist. You can make the most complicated skill tree system and at the end of the day someone will just do the math to see which skills will do the most dps.
The gameplay of WoW is just a turn based NES game with bells and whistles trying to make it look like real time action.
Wait, did they remove the 3rd spec, or is it just not included in the photo?
Min/maxing, data mining, and wikis are the worst things to happen to MMOs. Everyone knows everything before a patch or an expansion even releases.
It's every online game now. Can't even play an fps without someone going ''NOOO, YOU CAN'T USE THAT WEAPON, YOUTUBERhomosexual256 SAID IT HAD A 49% WINRATE!!!''
Play a stupid game like Overwatch and people screech commands at you ''PLAY DIVE! PLAY PIRATE SHIP!'' as if you are supposed to know what these are, like everyone who plays a game needs to go online and watch competitive games and learn all the lingo that is outside of the game.
>streamers got carried playing meme specs so therefore nobody cares about playing well
is this the level of cope classicgays are at now?
>take away spells
>but look now you can have them back
o.........k?
when was the last time Assassination could go for a legit aoe build?
>take spells and passives out of spell book
>slap them in a BRAND NEWtm interface
>you have to spend points to get your spells back now
>will end up with less stuff BUT you totally have the free choice duuuud!
everyone who is excited for this is a moron
>WoW
Literally what?
If you play WoW in 2022 you're a total loser.
All vidya is played by losers. The only ones that make you extra homosexual are FPS.
what does the current year have to do with anything? This was always the stereotype of a wow player
>garrote blind and sap are talents
what the frick
blizz have dont another classic "remove spells then add them back later as 'new' content" except this time they're trying to pander to people who played the game 15 years ago too
wow is dead
stop hugging the corpse already
just cut your losses and move on
Hell yea go play FFXIV instead. It has all the things we shit on WoW for like fricking up... uhhh... interesting builds? No?... Uhhh... better combat? Wh..what?? N.. no? No cash shop? NO?? NOOOOOO! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
rent free
yet he knew you play xiv
I don't. Rent free, homosexual.
>i-i don't i don't!!
Hm.
no one else even mentioned ffxiv
rent free
mmo is dead genre that is juast a chat room for erpgays
homie you ok?
Yes I'm playing the FFXIV free trial which includes the entirety of A Realm Reborn AND the award-winning Heavensward expansion up to level 60 with no restrictions on playtime of course I'm ok
jesus you got mindraped hard
Literally nobody mentioned FFXIV but you
I play lost ark 🙂
>Bots Shart
No one plays that lmao
post concurrent wow players
I don't give a shit about WoWo WaWa
I don't give a shit about GayWarts2
I don't give a shit about homosexual Fanny XIV
I don't give a shit about TroonScape
I don't give a shit about ElderScrotes
Frick you and Dilate you homosexual Black person.
TRUE
#WeOkay #BR PRIDE
I accept your concession
I accept you're a brown skinned hollering monkey mad that someone called your shit game bad.
Seethe 3rd worlder.
Bruh Lost Ark is so amazing that 200k of its concurrent players literally never sleep!
how do you progress in the tree? special currency from lootboxes or sth?
One point per one time $25 fee.
>slowly break down the game over the years
>sell shitty solution in new expansion
>repeat
?t=37
but don't you remember clicking that rend does +1% more damage button as a 12 year old please come back
Play WoW like a single player game and you'll enjoy it much more. Guilds and raid hunting are cringe as frick.
lol
they were trashing Classic and shitting on it but they now turn toward it again when they know their retail ship is sinking
wotlk is coming so good luck micro-blizz
have a nice day.
>new race is literal tumblr trash
>new OC class is tied to it
>premise is boring
>gameplay is still 17 year old tab target combat
>lore will be as shitty as ever
yawn
Should I play retail?
not until the xpac comes until as there is literally fricking nothing to do right now
no
No, play better game like lost ark.
>guy joins your raid and doesn't have garrote or mutilate
>you kick him
>reports you for violating his right to free spec
>tanks decide not to spec into defensives
>call him out on it
>get banned for breaking the social contract
isnt this literally in ffxiv?
pretty sure ive seen it somewhere that among other things you cant tell someone about raid mechanics and what they should do
its so ridiculous it had to be a hoax
it's an exaggeration, people are just mad they can't tell people to kill themselves for making small mistakes
i legit cant tell if this a male or a female
is it a shopped male face on female body?
this is a very unlucky girl
she still got married, thats easy mode for you
source
so this will just end up with everyone having EVEN LESS abilities right?
just put abilities you don't want people to use so far to the side they'd have to give up on a bunch of essential features, then go
"oh you could have picked it, but you didn't, that's not our fault"
yes
and then when people realize it and complain about it they will release the "solution" which is an AP grind to unlock more talent points
so in the end you get the exact same "customization" because everyone will have filled out the entire tree and you only have to pick between the nodes that have multiple skills in one node
>so this will just end up with everyone having EVEN LESS abilities right?
Good, I don't want to have three bars of skills.
>outlaw now gives cooldown reduction to the entire group every time they land a finisher
frick don't make me resub...
>Remove everything you would have learnt leveling up
>Make it a talent instead
>morons are defending it and saying that it's 'just like classic'
to be fair if it was classic it would be filled with a bunch of "5% chance of dealing 1% more damage if someone hits you" style talents either nobody picked, or people begrudgingly had to pick for the ability they gatekept
That's because smooth brains don't understand good class design and only remember the dopamine hit from getting to put another point in 'auto attacks have a 1/3/5% chance to do 17% more damage'
Talents should not be in tree form. Delete the connecting lines and have every skill be its own island then let players pick and choose their own build entirely. Simple as.
>take the existing "class specializations"
>put all of their abilities and passives on a tree
>add +0.1% damage passive nodes in between them to pad the tree out
voila
The talents are gonna be hit and miss. There's gonna be winners and there's gonna be losers, just how it is.
What really matters is the new zones and the content. Now there's no mandatory grind connected to power or any bullshit systems (so far) which is HIGHLY encouraging so I'll give them a + on that. The new zones themselves look to have a lot of soul and the idea of having a baby dragon we can raise and customize to ride around on is absolutely great...if they pull it off properly. Don't limit the cool appearances to Mythic+ 24 bullshit, let casualgays get some cool stuff too and you can't lose.
The over-all feeling of the expansion is a much better one than Shartlands because it's hopeful, optimistic, light-hearted. It's very reminiscent of MoP and that really isn't a bad thing given how GOOD MoP was overall besides the stupid grind in the first patch.
Plus, it's good to be back on Azeroth, back with classic fantasy tropes of Dragons doing dragon things. No cosmic hyper-war avengers shit.
>The talents are gonna be hit and miss. There's gonna be winners and there's gonna be losers, just how it is.
yep. and crybabies are going to spend an entire tier whining about their talent tree.
the real complaining is going to be the pvp talent trees now that classes have access to abilities from different specs that they can mix and match together. shadow priest getting power infusion for itself+an ally is a good example of that.
SP guaranteed a 3v3 slot? Imagine that.
I am in no way shape or form defending shadowlands or anything associated with the epic of suevanas.
But warcraft has never really been 'classic fantasy'. WCII has all sorts of steampunk bullshit not to mention the legion was always the primary antagonist and they are very much a cosmic hyper-war threat (even before their demonpunk(?) scifi shit in TBC and their literal star destroyers in legion).
to be entirely fair though
TBC was shit tier when it came to lore and world design
Wrong.
That's totally fine however, it fits in with established lore. But we'd JUST got done fighting the Legion and the Void to then go and fight another guy we've never heard of who is even scarier than both is utterly moronic.
Those talents are so fricking dogshit. They took away the entire base dk kit and distributed it in different talent branches. So now you can't even get the necessary abilities that you normally had
just two trees?
This time they're having a 'core' tree for each class you always can pick from and a unique tree for whatever specialization you pick
...so what
there are four trees now?
For classes with three specs, technically yes.
>meta meta meta meta
obviously
I'm going to spoil you all on how to enjoy WoW again, at least for a little. You don't play until the final patch of the expansion. Because at the end of every expansion for the past few there have been catch-up mechanics, easier to obtain gear, the balance has been "improved", and you'll be allowed to roughly play at your own pace. You skip all the bullshit.
You do nothing but set yourself up for disappointment when you play at the start. Even better the expansion comes down in price to its real value ($20/$25).
Stop being bad and pissing away your time getting mad at an incompetent company that is deliberately pushing you over the barrel and fricking you.
Took over a decade to develop the most barebones skill tree there can be
WoW has too many abilites
That's why I stick to LoL nowadays
>WoW has too many abilites
you're in luck, they're removing most of them in the next expansion
The hunter trees are so bad, MM has been the same shit since BFA and will be the same in DF. I hate Blizzard so much.
Beast Mastery was...pretty fricking lazy, honestly.
Just about anything about them is awful, you can literally spec into Improved Kill Command without getting KC or %x damage increase on pets while specced into Lone Wolf
Tress do not matter, core gameplay of proc, gain energy, spend energy, and all classes playing exactly the same within it's role.
>Re-Hire Xel'nath
>Hire someone competent to be lead designer, move Ion back to raid encounters
>Delete BFA and SL from existence
>Delete rogues for good measure too
>Roll back class design to MoP
Yep, that's a good expansion.
Oh wow, the old talent trees that were completely dogshit and full of 'you gain +1% extra damage' and 'you get 20 extra mana when you cast' WOW i can't believe it, that is so much better than the current talents that give me new abilities and change how I play my class ahahah OLD = GOOD OLD = GOOD OLD = GOOD HAHAHA
Fricktarded Blizz listening to morons who don't even play the game anymore and will never play the game again, yeah that's the way to go, you'd think the stupid c**ts would've learned with all the classic shit that it's literally just a novelty for subhuman neanderthal glue glue sniffers who want to pretend they're 12 again and the game is 'good' again (read: worse in every fricking way). Frick off already and go play XIV you literal brain dented lobotomites.
Ironic coming from some gay posting a demon hunter, renowned for their complicated and interesting rotation and playstyle
Ironic that you poke at a random wow image i have instead of formulating an actual argument
classic was so much fun right, truly the peak of game design right there
>rolls mage
>runs the same dungeons 5000000 times
>hit cap
>unsub
I remember how people like sodapoppin were seething how the best part of classic was the leveling and how it's utter horse shit in retail that you could get to max level in a few days.
Then classic came out and he watched reddit videos while his simp squad ran him through scarlet monastery over and over again. So much for that experience huh?
Almost as if morons who claim old wow was better are completely detached from reality.
They release Tor'ghast, one of the coolest features they've had in a while, and the community shat on it because they HAD to to run it 500 times in a week to cap out their resource, they were being FORCED to. WoW's community is filled of actual mongoloids who just shit on everything because they play nothing but wow 24/7 and blame the game for them having been burned out for years and not being able to let go or play other games too.
Blizzard should unironically ignore every single thing the players say and this stupid talent shit, all of classic, all of it is a perfect example.
When blizzard fricked up the legendary progression the players has a point of shitting them and dropping the shit gay underworld expansion
Samegay
I want to see what a max level spell book looks like at max level with no talent points applied. It's gonna be barren as frick. The idea that can you make a Sub rouge that doesn't have Shadow Dance or Shadowstep is kind of absurd, far too much of each spec's basic kit is in the talent tree.
remove random weekly chest loot
remove randomized "bonuses" on loot
then blizzard can have my money again
i'd include better writing as a condition, but let's be honest
>writing as a condition, but let's be honest
Yeah, as if they'd ever fire the rertards that are writing the shit that they call a "story" currently. You are right in thinking that this is nothing more than a pipe dream
Do they have an actual talent calculator or only images for now?
someone post the hearthstone jaina gg butt picture
Fellow snow vomit bros, I can't decide what to do with
>my last DK point
>my last 2 frost points
>current year
>Blizzard is stil relying on a talent to be Frost's mechanic instead of designing some depth into the spec.
All I want is my soul-sucking mechanic leading to a big hit.
>speccing into frostbreath willingly
now that's some serious stockholm syndrome
I just want new skills. I don't care about any of the mechanics I am the sub 80 IQ rollercoster appreciator that wow has been trying to court for the last ten years all I want is new cool necromacncy I do not care how bad the rest of the game is
>THIS TIME FOR REAL!!!!!! EVERYTHING IS FIXED!!!!!!!! PLEASE COME BACK!!!!!!!
Until you fire all the diversity hires and trannies and hire what made the classic game good, white and asian men, you can frick off.
Holy heckerino they puterino skill treeerinos back in to WoWerino, it’s savederino! We can all go back brotherinos! Time to raiderino!
>fun thing about MMORPGs is getting new spells, talents and classes/specs
>just put all the old shit in a talent tree
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
This actually looks good. To all idiots in thread saying
>muh take away and give back talents
what in the frick are you expecting they do? do you want to play classes that are totally unrecognizable? they can't add abilities ad infinitum because you fricks will then b***h about ability bloat. You now have freedom to create your own character instead of looking up guides on what abilities to use at what boss.
Will there be *the best* build? of course but that always was the case. This time however you will have the opportunity to make that autistic build that shines 1% of the time or frick around in pvp and surprise people with your build. Fricking finally jesus h christ on a bike.
>It's good that they take away abilities that have been baseline since VANILLA and make them into talents
>garrote
>blind
>fricking SAP
>evasion
>feint
>gouge
and that's just rogues
To be fair, there's plenty of players who would love to give up their CC abilities if it means they can do an extra 2% damage on their Sinister Strike
It's fine.
https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AACTPFVVVFRRGgBBwJAQAACKNRQqAUFBkVBQ8UA
Finally i can make my own stupid build and ignore guides and frick around in BGs.
>iron wire
>uses icon of copper wire
rrrreeeeeeeeeee
>give back talents
>only 1 build is ever meta and acceptable
they may as well not even have talents
>only 1 build is ever meta and acceptable
If you raid with anally plugged people then yes but if you frick around with like minded people now you have freedom in how you want to play the game.
You still cant do that, not even in your precious" classic"
>rando is discombobulated because his 6 piece live puzzle is about to be replaced with something that requires 12 brain cells instead of only 3
You'll survive this anon, i have faith in you. If all else fails just google it and other people will do the thinking for you this time as well.
they're basically vanilla trees
I hope we see come Caverns of Time in Dragonflight.
It would be shitty otherwise.
>Siege of Quel'thalas
>Siege of Dalaran
>Battle of Karazhan (raid)
>Grim Batol (Night of the Dragon)
>idk what else lmaooooo
>Remove all spells and passives and talents
>Readd them but not in a form of a Tree
>morons are EXCITED!
Tell me how is that isnt just an UI rework that doesnt even improve the gameplay or solve the problems with class customization?
>Tell me how is that isnt just an UI rework
You can't make this build currently.
https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AACRNEpGRIEXYNQGAQBFAB9MRipiUBQjESAUBQ
>Readd them but now in a form of a Tree
fixed
>rogue meta is to choose between Thistle Tea, a shitty covenant ability and Shadow Dance
Not even paying for time with gold for this shit, wow is dead
WoW is so fricking old and yet blizzard still hasn't figured out how people are playing their game and how to make it more fun.
The solution is so goddamn simple it's infuriating.
>The solution is so goddamn simple it's infuriating.
They already added black elves and it didn't work.
>most of the talents are 0/1
So it's the same as the talent system MoP introduced, but now it looks like the old talent system. Yes, truly, WoW is saved.
It's even worse, most of those are basic fricking abilities you should have by default like fricking Gouge and Blind, plus some shitty +1% Stamina nodes between then to waste your points.
>Stamina nodes between then to waste your points.
You're saying that as if you had points to waste before with the previous system. Thought you could slam all your points into everything and have every ability on the board? ever heard of the word "choice"? Fricking swear they made the fisherprice choose-your-ability 6 row 3 column talent system because they think you're all fricking idiot and you're proving them right. They are making a big fricking mistake with this talent tree system if even 30% of the playerbase is as moronic as you c**ts.
It's only there to make it SEEM like you have a choice, moron
>moron talking about shit he doesnt understand
They included all the borrowed power from bfa, legion and sl as talents so it's good.
>but now it looks like the old talent system
No it doesn't, the old talent system didn't force you down a line every time, you could pick 95% of side talent or previous talents freely
>Reuse old content and just slap on a new coat of paint
>WoWtrannies eat it up
Like clockwork.
>take out baseline abilities
>put them in "new" tree
lol
based. And I wish modern mmos offered more customization like that
but WoW needs a lot more than that to be saved
Oh look, another thing we can look up the optimal build for and copy paste. Wow, such customization
Why did they remove talent trees? And when did this happen? After WotLK? Or Cata?
MoP. They dumbed it down hardcore because the talent trees were getting bloated to frick.So instead of pruning gay shit like "1% chance of spell hit" they threw the baby out with the bath water and gave us 1 talent every 15 levels.
Trees were fricked in Cata and MoP just replaced them
looks like they looked at God of War talent tree thing for inspiration of all things, I wouldn't put my hopes up
What exactly am I looking at here?
I haven't played WoW since WotLK
Took me a few minutes to build what will probably be the optimal single-target builds for all three specs. Predictably it involves cutting out every single bit of utility and quality-of-life you can in the skill three. Who could have guessed
This is going to be what kills it for a lot of people.
I'm a casual, and if I were to play this I would pick the movement speed, grappling hook, and no-energy Sap talents and shit like that to make the 90% of the game where I'm on my own much better.
But then the moment you do go into a dungeon or Battleground and things go south for even a minute, the shitflinging begins because "15% movement speed lol fricking noob".
The game is at odds with itself.
If it's like current WoW you will be able to respec almost freely so you can always have the optimal setup for the current situation, so you're not actually making any meaningful choices.
90% of these new trees are just things we have now removed from your character and rationed back to you as a "choice" every level.
Why on earth did they keep that rancid supercharged anima combo point shittery from Shadowlands as a talent?
Truly one of the worst ideas they've ever had. They had left Rogues alone for so long and I was grateful because 'super-combo-points' is the sort of dumbass thing they come up with.
It undermines the entire 'build to five and make a choice' gameplay loop of the class you now have to babysit this 'special' combo point. At least you can completely avoid talenting into this shit.
'Shadow Mist' who the frick came up with this: you fart out a purple cloud and have to chase it down like a Monk orb, and it gives you a special super-duper combo point. Good god almighty kill me
Because they aren't capable of good class design and now they don't have a stupid power system to hide their shit takes on Classes behind this time.
is it really that hard to just copy classics design?
>classic
>good
why would they ruin the best part of the game?
classic and tbc already solved the "you're forced to use the best spec" by letting every spec have unique buffs and debuffs. It's why people brought afflic locks to raids even though they didn't do the most damage or why you'd want at least one marksmen hunter.
I really don't know why they got rid of class and spec identity in wotlk
but they solved this "solved" issue in WotLK by just giving every buff to at least 3 specs
bring the player not the class!
They should have made all the class trees connected. Just one giant tree where you can mix talents and your spec/role gets decided by an algorithm that calculates your effectiveness in various fields. It would give way for more types of specializations.
>All the talent that made Legion is gone
>All the original devs are gone except for Ion
>All the lore writers that matter are gone
>Chris Metzen is gone
>Company pays it's employees in honour points and they sleep in the car park
>Competent devs refuse to be underpaid and worked to death to maintain an old game
>No self respecting dev wants to be a glorified repair man
>The Californian bubble culture has caused a dead sea effect now only twittertards are left and in charge
WoW is objectively in the worst place it's ever been, it's been hijacked by hyper partisan weirdos with no talent and it's objectively terrible to play. The new race only appeals to trannies, second life jomo enjoyers and furry paypigs. The talent points are thinly veiled depth, while there will always be cookie cutter builds the talents are so shallow that the point of the whole system is lost.
>Chris Metzen is gone
Chris Metzen wrote green jesus and heart of the swarm kerrigan and femdiablo (only good for the porn), he was already washed up
Body type 4 for new race looks normal bulk by warcraft standards so not forcing players to make gaydragons is okay
Everything else pretty much true though
FF14 players who never touched WoW couldn't even comprehend how clean WoW feels to play from the very first second of vanilla
Try a max level duel with someone in WoW vs FF14
How you spot a gaylord who claimed to have played vanilla but is a PServer moron.
How to spot someone who never played the game in the first place
git gud gay, you've been crying about rogues for 20 years
>it gets better when you git gud*!
>*spend $120 on wow tokens to get a legendary and gear boost so you don't get oneshot
think I'll play something else, thanks
i am in this ride since beta dipshit, saw all of the original good concepts getting mauled off the game because of Tigole's gang and the morons who ruined the company's culture of this shit.
now, get off your horse mazed Black person.
He was the soul and the heart of the game whether you like it or not. Garrosh will always be remembered, no one will rememeber any of troonylands characters and they will be long since forgotten when Garrosh's name is still known to the players. Cities like Suramar, the writing for them, that was Chris. The world building? That was Chris. All these things that people take for granted. It's like waking up one day with half of the gradiant missing on all the colours around you. Whether you like it or not he defined the game.
>Garrosh will always be remembered
True, but for the purposes of him being a dumpster fire of wasted potential with inconsistent writing (e.g. cata stonetalon mountains vs everything else) and actively working against his own goals
If I could have young crazy rock and roll chris metzen back i'd take it in a heartbeat, but he was slipping from 2007
and yet you played it anyway 'oldgay'
WoW movement feel shits on FF14 movement feel and that is an ice cold fact
WoW's movement is shitter than Morrowind
>Try a max level duel with someone in WoW vs FF14
ok
>dies in one hit
oooh so smooth mmm
>evismoronic
just report him for his name if you need to seethe about losing a duel so badly.
if the shitty quality of the screenshot didn't tip you off, it's from a video
it's so easy to trigger minigamers, they know their little side activity is an unbalanced piece of shit that's only played by like 5% of the playerbase so they want new people to bully but people are too smart to fall for the trap
>duel
>abilities from 2 classes in death log
moron?
>Instant Poison and Deadly Poison artificially separated so they can fill out the spellbook and make a filler talent
Christ
>Hey Blizzard, we want a talent system close to classics or with some depth like in PoE, maybe something inbetween
>Blizzard proceeds to take baseline abilities, put them in the talent trees, has souless filler and then with out irony calls it a day
New abilities should be making up those talent points, talents should be enchancing already existing abilities, this was an opportunity to create something wacky and fun. Instead it looks sterile, corporate and devoid of any genuine thought.
>sterile, corporate and devoid of any genuine thought.
The average Blizzard employee.
This looks like fricking shit
ESO of all fricking games managed to unfrick this idea with champion points and leveling.
Only moron spawns of Tigole the israelite will shill this shit or the EQ homosexualry that pushed out the meta autism that killed MMO's.
matrix online still had the best talent tree system
I don't know what I'm looking at here but wow died when hybrid specs were killed.
well good news because hybrid is back on the menu judging by the priest talent tree
https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AABsQAFQGYGRVAWQogayEBAABmOVUUBEFRFYRKAwJBQ
>+health
>+health
>+health
>+health
>+health
The wow ones need a lot of work but PoE is the definition of a filler talent tree
Need something in the middle where theres no arbitrary filler nodes but still interesting passives
>The wow ones need a lot of work but PoE is the definition of a filler talent tree
Not necessarily. You do need those travel/filler +Stats nodes to fulfill prerequisites. Champion and Witch, for example, have both notoriouus difficulty in getting enough Int and Str, respectively, to comfortably fulfill those prerequisites by the skill tree alone.
And if you're really dissatisfied with these small travel nodes, you can alter their effect with Timeless israeliteels or other israeliteels that allow you to change their basic effect or to allocate disconnected nodes. Or use cluster israeliteels and have a big chunk of your build be defined by those nodes instead.
honestly embarrassing to see the same people who were happy about the streamlining of the talent trees suddenly changing their tune and praising blizzard for putting talent trees in the game again. it is shameless, even, and a wilful act of delusion.
Why the frick are sap, blind, and evasion on the talent tree? they've been baseline since forever
illusion of choice
Yes anon, but now you have the "choice" to give them up if you really want to.
You're welcome.
they can't come up with new skills so they ripped out the old ones and give them back to you (well, a third of them at least)
tbh the current trees they've shown feel like they have too many skills baked in and not enough passives that effect said skills
this is why I wont play it ever again. this shit is ridiculous
"hey we're going to re-implement something we cut because uuuuh stop asking questions"
>core skills like interrupts are talents
they've already set this up to be badly received so they can go "you think you do but you don't" again. blizzard literally only has 2 tricks they keep reusing over and over again and you frickers keep falling for it every time
A skill tree? That's cute.
damn they can fit so many wand damage +1% in that tree, crazy
99% of that is useless filler shit, and you know it. It's there to act as a dopamine boost "I spent 27 hours straight farming mobs Now unlimited power is MINE!! (+1% crit)"
How to spot someone who never played the game in one post
>decide I'm playing a spell and not an attack
>50%of the nodes instantly worthless
People really need to stop over rating the poe tree
>I WANT EVERY NODE TO BE USEFUL TO MY BUILD
You have no idea how "building" works, do you?
If it's not useful the tree isn't actually that large, simple as.
Let me know when WoW puts melee bleed effectiveness in the mage tree, until then PoE is a joke
Nice. Too bad this makes my eyes bleed and not want to play the game.
>BIGGER IS BETTER DOOOD
Soulless trash made for consoomer that love shelling out for a trash diablo clone
too bad the game its shit
It's funny seeing people seethe about travel nodes in the thread that shits on blizzard for having zero variety
truly shows how utterly brainless the average wow player is lmao
>tree is 99% travel nodes
>WOW LOOK HOW COMPLEX MY GAME IS, TREE SO BIG LOL!
nobody is defending the wow talent trees but seriously stop this shit
While it is true that there are a handful of skill tree "skeletons" for build archetypes in PoE, there is a lot of variety. Depending on the gear available to you, what content you do and even personal preferences, there is a whole lot of room for variation even within builds.
all im really saying is theres a tonne of fat that could be trimmed, but too many PoE gays are married to their giant jpeg and would sperg the frick out
This is something I have thought about for quite a while, too, but I'm not entirely sure I agree. The tree isn't perfect by any means, but they have added so many things that depend on the current size of the tree (jewels that transform nodes in radius, add stats to them, or let you take them without being connected) and there has been so much finetuning done for the "travel nodes" (pathing for stat requirements etc.) that trimming it down right now would take away a whole lot of complexity and interesting interactions. 10 years ago, maybe it would be a different story.
Personally I really fell in love with PoE's tree when I realized I can stick 3 Might of the Meeks next to the fat Health/Evasion nodes in Scion's tree.
holy shit poe gay cope his games dead will be more dead after dragonflight lmao
>so much seething at this post
IS, IS THAT A SKILL TREE THAT REQUIRES PLANNING TO EXECUTE?
AAAAAHHHHHHHH, HELP ME BOBBY KOTICK, I'M GOING INSANE
I hate the POE tree because you need a frickin stupid talent build planner and build prepared before you even start playing or you legit just wasted your time
>you need to know what you want to put points into to improve your build before you invest said points
I mean, yeah.
BROOO WOW IS BACK BABY DRAGON FLIGHT LETS GOOOOOO FINALLY SOME FORM OF INNOVATION THIS IS IT
>pick talent that the obsessed eceleb ridden community said its not viable
>get kicked from a +5
yeah it truly will be saved
Will the WoW trees let you take talents that buff an ability you dont have?
they let you do that right now, some classes have talents that buff skills you get several levels later
>took the spastics 20 years to realise why people liked Vanilla
Maybe in 100 years they'll figure out what made Warcraft 3 good
They finally admitted that an interface which was designed for 2004 monitors is not good anymore.
the onlything wrong with the default ui is a lack of info on certain things. everybody uses custom uis anyways though so im not sure what that matters.
Addons should not be required to make the game playable.
They could exist as an optional way of customizing your interface, not as must haves.
im not mad about them overhauling the UI, i'm mad about them removing all the soul
The screenshots they showed looked like the UI for one of those chink mobile games that knocked off WoW's original UI, just flat shit colours and no more small details anywhere
I had the exact same issue with the overhauled nameplates, yes the functionality was better but visually they look soulless and the only addon i found to bring them back to how they used to look only sort of does it
Person who plays shadowlands
some trees are really strong (Holy Priest, Resto, Assasination) while others are garbage (Survival hunter so far)
The reason is those with pruned abilities, mostly HEALERS who don't have kicks or CC, are now getting them back and really benefit from the base talent tree.
Others just have good talents and easy to access
while some other talents have absolute garbage talents forced to get JUST to get the good ones.
lmao this is going to be one of those talent trees where you fill it out completely
frick yea dude WOWS BACK BABY
Ahh yes, a skill tree that lets me make 3 choices before reaching the bottom, one of the choices merging back into the same path.
Maybe try harder next time blizz, this actually limits builds even more than the current system.
>Adding talent trees
>keeping the way the classes play exactly the fricking same
Black person who cares, this shit is never going to work if they make you press buttons in a certain order.
Like wow, my first unholy talent is Festering Strike? I can't wait to use a dogshit ability that hits like a wet noodle and does literally nothing unless you use press a bunch of other shit afterwards. Can I choose something else? Oh wait, no I can't, it's a required talent for everything else.
>I can't unga bunga why do I have to use synergistic spells
DK players lmao
Yeah I pick a Death Knight suffused with the unholy power of the damned to watch a debuff build until I'm forced to press button 3 in the sequence
Just like every class you moron c**t
>disease spec is about debuffs
So crazy bro it
Silly blizzard it says HERO class that means I should do infinity damage when I attack
>unholy = disease because green = disease
>death knights having anything to do with diseases
>disease spec = put debuff until number = 5 then press next button just like every single spec
You're moronic and gay, I could write a better class on your dad's shit stained underwear
Unholy is disease because WoW undeath is tied to a plague and from the start they had diseases moron
>implying wounds act like combo points
ur genuinely a moron. no wonder you picked up a DK
>implying I play this game
I used DK as an example because it's one of the only classes with available talent trees to look at, you mongoloid.
wounds act like combo points
You're fricking moronic, all classes play the same, you press a certain predetermined sequence of 5 buttons to make the DPS number go up. Even if being an Unholy DK WAS some gay watered down shit like spread disease, at no point does it feel like you're actually doing that while playing the fricking game. No, it feels like you're pressing Sequence Input No. 1 with different art for the icon.
>You're fricking moronic, all classes play the same
wrong
>you press a certain predetermined sequence
wrong
thanks for playing. Maybe next time actually read the tree before posting?
>wrong
haha
good one
Enjoy your resource management game
>enjoy actual depth
thanks I will
Did you seriously think that resource management is going to sound bad or something?
>Did you seriously think that resource management is going to sound bad or something?
t. accountant
Im sorry you hate RPGs
>DDR accounting simulator forced on you by devs is "roleplaying"
You like roleplaying as an autist or something?
Explain to me why you think a classical RPG should give each class its own speshul resource
>never having to even look at your mana bar is LE GOOD
Then why have it? Most caster classes are literally only limited by the global CD and nothing more.
Mana is a healer resource, DPS and tank specs can go on indefinitely and play around their special resources which are not on a timer to be close to useless.
WoW was more fun when all ranged relied on mana and you needed hybrids like shadowpriests, shaman and druids to round it out with bonus mana regen abilities for the party
>WoW was more fun when you had to find specs instead of players
No thanks. I like having bonuses, not requirements.
you are wrong.
Bring the player not the class forced blizzard to bring every spec to dps parity instead of letting everyone have their niche which means theres now ALWAYS a best class for each role and frick everyone else.
your way of thinking is why you get bullshit like all melee slots being sub rogues for whole raid tiers
oh no, everyone can perform and compete instead of being there to meet quotas, the horror
just remove 2/3 of your abilities from your action bar and go do random heroics to feel special or something
did you not read what i just typed moron
NOBODY is allowed to come besides the meta class and spec while doing progression now
>did you not read what i just typed moron
Yes, I did. What about it? Let me read it again. Oh, look, it didn't change anything. Your statement is still completely moronic.
>NOOOOO BUT THEY FILLED SLOTS WITH 1 SPEEECC AAAAAH
That was a case of them failing to balance the specs DPS. If they're balanced then having different specs will bring in small buffs that benefit everyone (though it still won't be a pre-req to do the content). This is NOT an excuse to make bloodlust shaman exclusive again, or make warrior shouts give +50% melee damage or something.
>NOBODY is allowed to come besides the meta class and spec while doing progression now
Maybe Mythic raiding guilds going for world first. On chill guilds they'll let you in as long as you pull DPS above X and do the mechanics.
You could outdps people in chill guilds anyway under the old system anyway though?????
Your post makes no fricking sense, any guild taking raiding seriously follows the meta dictated by world first guilds, do you even play the game???
>guilds taking raiding seriously do stuff seriously
Are you reading your own posts you fricking moron? YES, only tryhards will tryhard. Stay the frick away from tryhards. The content is doable without them.
yeah and bring the player not the class was balanced around tryhards, if you want to just play for fun half your tools were taken away or homogenized and given to everyone because of that philosophy, it completely changed raiding for the worse
Consider that in the past you could bring sub optimal players because they had abilities good for your raid, now nobody wants to bring a bad dps because they bring nothing but dead weight, which means less people are allowed to raid, which means they either enter LFR or just quit which sucks more players out of the game
Removing class synergies is one of the defining points of where the game started going downhill
I completely disagree with you. I don't think shit players should be brought in and made to feel special because they picked a shit spec nobody wants to touch with a 10 foot pole. Have every spec in the game be able to perform its main duty, then give them stuff on top of that that doesn't make them go crazy with their numbers, but makes them versatile (like current pally blessings for example).
>I don't think shit players should be brought in
Neither did blizzard apparently! so now we're stuck with LFR instead of making the game more social and keeping a larger amount of the playerbase invested
And everyones main duty shouldn't be DPS, it makes the game completely shallow and boring, bring back support classes that actually focus on helping the team without being healbots
hated being a buff bawd
lemme smash
If you're in a chill guild you can literally smash, even in classic
What are you talking about
Non rogues/warriors do frick all damage in classic
anon if you're in a chill casual guild i guarantee half the warriors and rogues are absolute spergs who can't even hit their buttons off cooldown
Not to mention if you go to BC where people still spit at ret pallys they weren't even bad, and if you could seal twist you destroyed people
>it works if your rogues are literally licking windows instead of playing the game
lmao
you must be a different guy than the one who was complaining before because thats the definition of chill casual guilds that need 25 or 40 warm bodies just to fill spots
Get into a raiding guild that's not doing Mythic and make some friends. And why supporting other players should be mutually exclusive with performing one of the three main duties? Play a Ret pally and give blessings arouns for example while still DPSing.
It means you cant be a ret pally that turns to the person next to you and says "you do double damage for the next 20 seconds enjoy" and then start spamming flash of light on the tank for the next 30 seconds because the healers are getting low, saving the raid from a wipe
Because blizzard wants to balance you around being somehow equal with 20+ other dps specs
It was most noticeable with shadowpriests because you were topping everyone off with mana so they loved you, synergy is really really fun but its impossible to give people fun things if they all have to also do the same dps because that creates imbalances
Isn't that just the covenant ability shit?
And don't pretend like you homosexuals actually care about player choice. We all know you'll just google the meta build.
A lot of the skills rely entirely on picking up an other baseline ability elsewhere and unconnected in the tree or they do nothing. This seems like awful design
>31 points in the class tree
>30 points in the spec tree
>infinite possibilities
>1 week after release
>these are the 3 mathematically perfect builds for your class
>this addon shows us if you're playing something else
leave it to the community to ruin it in 0.3 seconds.
possibilities
lol
there aren't infinite possibilities. choices later in a tree are predetermined by picking up other abilities elsewhere in the spec or class tree which severely limits what you can pick up already. like getting something that relies on kill command resetting without actually getting the kill command reset skill, or skills that buff kill shot or wildfire bomb but those are abilities you need to pick first
Look at this face.
She's about to do Windrunner things to that poor boy
I mean... I guess it's something..?
Could they really not have put more effort into this though?
body type 4 is acceptable
the joke
your head
Yeah, the 4th one is the only good one. The other three try way too hard to be androgynous, but look like shit instead.
>Forced to play yet another new class that is exclusive to shitty fricking Blood Elves
They sure do.
>3 out of 4 options make it look like the kind of estrogen deformed homosexual that jerks off to this
They know their audience
neck still too long, wouldn't frick
Every new expansion I am once again surprised by how fricking lazy these people are.
4 looks okay. It doesn't look great, let alone good, but it looks okay.
yeah nah, i got to endgame when they revamped it to 10 acts and the whole time it was +stat +stat +stat
The tree is moronic and is almost all filler until you reach the ends with 2 or 3 good nodes along the way
It's a fricking meme how people hold this shit up as good design, you could slice it in half and nothing of value would be lost
actually unironically based moron
using brain is for women and homosexuals, what kind of fricking nerd would spend time learning all this shit and crafting their own build, just copy your favorite eceleb build and claim absolute expertise on the topic
that's the gigachad energy
>MMOs
The problem with mmos in general is that they're constantly evolving, so even when you get content that's good it's only a matter of time until they frick it up.
Surely this time Blizzard will not be so utterly incompetent and there will be more than one optimal talent build? This time for sure!
no such thing as an MMO where one build doesn't edge out all others on raid damage
Best you can hope for is some are better for utility, some are better for aoe etc
I'm a FFXIV player and I've never played WoW past level like 50, but I unironically hope Dragonflight is really good and causes a FFXIV exodus. YoshiP and his goons need a wake up call and decide wether they're going to appeal to mentally impaired casuals or people who play video games.
>to mentally impaired casuals
So, anyone who plays MMOs?
i dont know how can anyone see these new talent trees and think its better, its genuinely worse, they put the tools you already use and lock them behind paths that make you sacrifice some of them in order to get the important core skills.
>get the important core skills.
None of which actually feel important because they don't do anything on their own
lvl in nu-wow will never feel good no matter what, blizz and retail andies don't understand why classic chads enjoy the old talent trees and pacing, and giving a lvl 10 rogue CoS, shadowstep, shadow dance, fan of knives etc is just unrewarding, it used to be an absolute world shattering moment when you finally unlocked cloak of shadows for example... let alone fan of knives
you're not meant to just have all of those basically at the start, you have to suffer a certain amount of time before you truly understand and appreciate how important the abilities are
>ur dum ur dum
>provides more evidence you never played the endgame
you are not getting any more (You)s, you mongrel
Need to cut like 25% of that shit.
Still not playing though.
whats the point of talents when people will just use presets they look up on icy veins. Damage meter and its consequences have been a disaster on MMO genre
ironically it would be even worse without damage meters
If you're playing your own build and mogging everyone else on dps they'll kick you for not playing the "right" build since they have no idea you're carrying the raid
nonsense. People are conditioned to associate numbers with skill. Damage meter completely steered class and game design
you can look at games like vermintide. Nobody gives a frick what build you go for as long as you finish the mission
>Nobody gives a frick what build you go for as long as you finish the mission
And therin lies the problem, because WoW devs tune every fight with enrages or dangerous adds so harsh that every tiny scrap of dps matters, and people just pull numbers from their combat log and submit to world of logs for epeen wank anyway
and yet damage numbers elitism trickles down to lower difficulty content to the point you have people sperg out about not minmaxing in +6 even though you can do that shit with all dps players asleep. Wow is just not enjoyable to play, people unironically play it as a chore simulator
i've never seen anyone sperg out in low M+ unless there was a wipe, i'm sorry that this anecdotally happened to you tho
do you know how many fricking 1% wipes i've had on mythic prog? how about spine of deathwing heroic where you had to kill each plate in a single round?
If you're denying blizzard tuning content beyond what top percentile players can hit until they've farmed enough gear you didn't play the game
>unless there was a wipe
sure it happens more often after wipes because this is when people start pointing fingers. In casual content wipes because of lack of dps happen almost never, 99% its just people failing mechanics so they use overgearing as a crutch. Pugging in this game is just miserable
>do you know how many fricking 1% wipes i've had on mythic prog? how about spine of deathwing heroic where you had to kill each plate in a single round?
That's what I said. Required in cutting edge content. If you don't like that go play 1 difficulty lower, then you can play suboptimal stuff without issues.
>every tiny scrap of dps matters
How fricking bad are you that you're barely getting through content my dude? PVE is easy unless you're doing cutting edge content.
balance goes out the fricking window for at least 2 years. They're still prototyping this shit, and it's supposed to be released in a few months?
Not to mention they made a furry-friendly race that can transform info a fricking dragqueen elf. And you just fricking know how broken and overpowered that garbage woke-class will be in order to bump up the class numbers.
frick you and frick everyone who still pays blizzard for this shit game
What balance? WoW has never been balanced nor ever will be
the IMbalance is what attracts people
WoW is semi-balanced towards the end of expansions, and then they frick it up in order to (attempt to) one-up the previous designers.
however its different this time, as they're effectively starting from scratch by reintroducing talents. The first 6 months at least will require weekly balance patches to remotely iron out bullshit builds.
They do it on purpose to keep the game "fresh"
>current WoW team
>capable of making weekly balance patches for 6, let alone 1 month
I can tell you what’s not going to happen.
Have you taken a look at these talents? It's not really different from now. Worst of all is that they're clearly split into pve and pvp.
>Have you taken a look at these talents? It's not really different from now.
You must either be blind or moronic.
>Worst of all is that they're clearly split into pve and pvp.
You mean best of all. PVE talents will always be min-maxed anyways, PVP talents are all that really matter.
What's the difference between choosing a couple of options from the left row now and in dragonflight? Because i was reading these and this doesn't change anything when there aren't real options or decisions to make.
You must be moronic. You can be an uholy DK without chains of ice whatsoever, for example. I'm sure PVEgays will be happy that you can get rid of a "useless PVP skill" for raiding like that.
I don't understand why so many people like this. They took away all of the abilities you already have and put them on the tree instead. Why not make new abilities instead of taking away existing ones?
Because too many abilities exist already.
>too many abilities my brain can't keep up!!
>damage number too high i didn't learn to count stat squish is needed
have a nice day
But they could have simply give improved version of existing abilities and it would have been much better than taking them away. There are hundreds of ways they could have done this better and yet they chose the laziest and most boring way to do it. That's why I haven't bought shadowlands because trannies simply don't have souls and they cannot be creative like mentally stable humans. Its a fricking travesty what they did to WoW
>spend months trying to come up with, balancing, test, etc. these talent trees
>9/10 people will literally just copy from Icy Veins and similar sites and never use the trees again
Great job, Blizzard. What an excellent thing to dedicate so much time to!
I switch talents and soulbinds all the time depending on the activity I am planning.
Cookie cutter builds are for players who run only one type of content.
>playing Activision games in 2022
no
The problem with WoW will be all of the extra systems on top of this talent tree stuff. Like sneedolands had covenants, soulbinds, legendaries, etc... they just can't stop making systems. They WILL add extra systems on top that make this extra gay.
This is meant to be the first expansion where they don't add a bunch of moronic systems. They seem to have finally understood that it makes no sense to constantly reinvent borrowed power systems every 1-2 years that renders everything previously completely redundant and useless.
However, this also means that it looks like Dragonflight might be the most featureless and boring expansion ever. The game is meant to come out in the next 6 months and so far we only know about talent tree revamps, profession revamps, 1 race-locked class with 2 specs, GW2 copy/paste dragon riding, 8 dungeons and 1 raid.
OH WOW SO MUCH HAS CHANGED HOLY FRICK BOBBY TAKE MYY MONEY!
>WAAAAH GIVE ME MORE OPTIONS
>look, we gave you more options
>BUT CAN I MAKE IT KINDA LIKE THE OLD ONE?
>yeah sure why not
>AHA NOTHING HAS CHANGED
????????????
they literally removed most of your baseline stuff and put it in a tree and somehow these idiots are happy lmao
Keep skill trees in dedicated RPGs, not MMOs. FF14 unironically has the right of it on this one, if you're going to put fake choices for class progression behind a skill-tree or points system that really aren't choices at all, then don't even give me the choice, just give me the skills you want me to use and make me play the class the way you're wanting me to play it.
>the trees are just stuff that was taken away in earlier expansions
lol, lmao.
>so lets take 90% of the class skills and just connect them and call it a skill tree!
lol no, WoW is dog shit and I hope wow Black folk are shot in the next mass shooting.
Based, now instead of getting a passive all at once, I click it one to three times while leveling instead.
I quit WoW at the end of legion
There is only one thing that would bring me back. The ability for dps to be able to 1v1 healers again.
Frick off moron
you some kind of gay healer?
Pvp is always awful when some chimp can just run down a healer solo
It ruins CC and trading entirely
you know what else makes pvp awful? 15 min fights that go no where because blizzard designed one role to be unable to be reasonably taken down in a 1v1. If both you and the healer are of similar skill issues there is no way for you to get an upper hand on them and if your class has no good self sustain you're just going to lose very very slowly
Stop trying to solo healers then
BGs and Arenas are not 1v1s
i see you've never played BG's as alliance
Why would I be gay?
because you're a healer
As an arms warrior you can do it.
Whoa... Such choice... Such variety... Now it's time to google the critical path and pick the best traits.
gay who hasn't played since like Cata here.
>Are there only two trees now?
>talent point tax to get abilities that used to be baseline
>only one route will allow you to get the left or right talents at the bottom
>Unironic person who quit in cata and never looked at wow again
Anon I don't even have the heart to tell you where to begin
I didn't like WoW that much but I found BGs to be heaps of fun. Particularly the tug of war one where its just a fricking road and everyone throws themselves at eachother. Athran or something it was called.
I played unholy DK and spread my plague things on literally everyone. It was a lot of fun just melting literally like 40 players at once.
Hey bro here's your new skill tree.
20 bucks says you can't guess my class.
Samurai?