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what da weedle doin
The player
>attacks are 60 power at most
>hasn't unlocked easy access to EV training yet
>random IVs and natures
>best held items are some berries
GameFreak balance is questionable but it can always be worse.
>AIEEE YOU CAN'T JUST MAKE SOMETHING WHERE IT'S POSSIBLE FOR ME TO ACTUALLY LOSE
alright then. gimme access to every item in the game and let all my mons learn illegal moves like v-create and geomancy. the image in the OP certainly has no issues with doing so.
>AIEEE YOU CAN'T JUST MAKE SOMETHING WHERE IT'S POSSIBLE FOR ME TO ACTUALLY LOSE
not an argument. if you can justify illegal sets by simply handwaving you can justify anything. hell, at this level there are legal sets you can do that are much more terrifying, but of course, you're just another creatively bankrupt hack that can't do encounter design for shit so they never occurred to you.
>not an argument
neither is "the game shouldn't be hard because I pretend I want challenge but I don't want a chance of actually losing"
You're being disingenuous. As I said, there are legal sets you can do that are far scarier, but you chose not to use them because you're a talentless hack.
the most shocking thing about the OP image is that the weedle set is legal
That post in the other thread really hit the nail on the head when it said you shitters can't deal with anything outside your made-up definitions of what's fair lmao. In this case you think the AI should be balanced around some kind of "fair" 1:1 pvp setting where they can't have anything beyond what you have, despite the AI being stupid and easily manipulated. They don't even know how to switch pokemon which is the strongest tool a player has, proper pivoting strategies can shut down AI teams ten times stronger than yours.
You really don't want something to actually challenge you.
>your made-up definitions of what's fair lmao
asking for movesets to be legal within the confines of the game isn't a high bar. it's not a "made-up definition of what's fair." you're genuinely mental. there are legal alternatives to what OP is trying to accomplish. he chose to ignore them. and you chose to defend him.
literally only pokemon morons care about this, play any other rpg
what fricking board do you think you're on, moron?
I used to think this way, until I realized how fricking moronic the AI is in Pokemon.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with occasionally giving boss/difficult CPU teams some stuff that the player can't have. Like that other anon said, RPGs are filled to the brim with "unfair" things that the player can't do.
go play comp if you want a challenge
you won't, because you're too chickenshit to play against anything other than easily manipulated ai
I have played competitive, though, it's a completely different thing. The AI can be challenging precisely because they can have huge advantages over you, especially in a nuzlocke setting where losses are costly.
You can't post that and then point out a hack is bad because the AI teams are not following legal competitive rules and is using things you don't have access to, the point is to offer a single player challenge, it's not comp, it's more like a strategy puzzle game where you need to figure out how to solve each battle.
>it's more like a strategy puzzle game where you need to figure out how to solve each battle.
sounds gay
pokemon should be an adventure game with a focus on exploration and discovery
Fair enough, just don't play difficulty rom hacks then.
>pokemon should be an adventure game with a focus on exploration and discovery
gaaaaaaay
I can and will justify anything as long as its fun. I got no problem with it unless it's not fun.
People that say romhack makers are "pushing the wrong levers to create difficulty" like this absolute moron
are literally autistic. The game isn't required to be fair to you.
>I can and will justify anything as long as its fun.
you are mentally ill. seek help.
>wanting a game to be enjoyable instead of upholding some inane sense of "fairness" (not even balance) equals mental illness
Oh boy, you're not gonna like the real world.
>being able to justify anything for your own personal vision of what qualifies enjoyment isn't psychotic behavior
tell it to the shrink.
>wanting a game to be enjoyable instead of upholding some inane sense of "fairness" (not even balance) equals mental illness
Oh boy, you're not gonna like the real world.
>some inane sense of "fairness" (not even balance)
how is expecting legality in movesets inane? if you have perfect knowledge of a pokemon's movepool within the actual pokemon games in every generation it's in and you're thrown some wacky woohoo bullshit that's quite literally impossible in the original games without flagrant hacking how is that fun? all the game's doing is throwing a cheap gotcha at you and basically assuming you've got your face glued to a guide for that specific romhack. at that point, why not just drop all pretenses and use fakemon?
It's fun because it takes you out of your comfort zone and forces you to change your strategy on the fly. Pretty obvious.
I got no problem with fakemon either, idk what your argument is. The base games also do moveset shit and asymmetric fights like totems and make you fight pokemon you literally can't get like eternasaurus. Maybe you complain about those too.
So I'll say it again, wanting every fight to be symmetrical down to only the available resources to the player being used is autistic. As long as the game's fun, it doesn't matter. Nobody but you cares.
>I got no problem with fakemon either, idk what your argument is.
then you're illiterate. do you not understand why the movesets in the OP are illegal? do I need to spoonfeed you?
>The base games also do moveset shit
they don't. all movesets in the base games are perfectly legal. all the strange moves you see in the base games are either egg moves or TMs or what have you. multiple moves pictured in the OP are literally illegal. they cannot be replicated on actual hardware without hacking. the few instances where there are genuine instances of moveset illegality are so rare that they've been documented here:
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Game_move_errors
>and asymmetric fights like totems
totem mons are beholden to legal movesets. this ain't totems either so it's a moot point.
>and make you fight pokemon you literally can't get like eternasaurus.
this ain't that so it's a moot point.
>they don't
>but here's giant the wiki page with all of them
what level of backtracking is this
90% of them are either a result of pokemon home, raids, BDSP being a shitfest, in some manner of battle frontier, or were eventually patched. out of the tens of thousands of mons you can fight these are the only bad apples in terms of moveset legality and never more than 1 mon on a trainer. a romhack that can be patched has no excuse for using illegal movesets as a rule. The OP even has more than 1 illegal set on 1 trainer.
knowing what's possible and what isn't is one of the ways you can do risk mitigation on a blind run. otherwise, you're gluing your face to a guide.
or
let yourself fail and learn. Its not that difficult to engage with a videogame
then it's just a waste of time.
>damn I got hit with moves I couldn't have possibly known this pokemon would've had
>surely this isn't a precursor for every gym leader and rival battle going forward
why bother engaging with the rest?
>Totem pokemon start fights with buffs, which you can't do unless you hack.
this is known factor. that is why it's moot.
>Eternatus eternamax is a pokemon you can't get unless you hack.
same as above.
you seem to be illiterate despite your claim to the contrary so I will reiterate the point: pokemon movesets should adhere to the legality set by the actual games as a general rule or else using those pokemon as a base for an illegal moveset is pointless and you may as well use fakemon so as not to deliberately mislead your player about what's possible and what isn't. this is what we like to call in card game terms "public knowledge." an immutable known quantity.
Explain how Apple Acid Gloom is going to invalidate the strategy you already had planned out to deal with Gloom. If it knew, say, Flamethrower, sure, you might have a point, but come on.
the violation on the principle in this instance is indicative of its violation elsewhere (possibly in a more flagrant manner) so while I shouldn't have to I'll indulge you.
apple acid is guaranteed to lower spdef by one stage on every hit so setup strats on slower mons won't work.
>wtf is this argument?????
violating previously established known quantities is bad. totem mons having buffs and eternatus not being catchable don't violate this principle. why is this difficult to understand?
A pokemon's entire possible moveset is not a "previously established known quantity" unless you're LITERALLY autistic enough to learn it in its entirety. The game never establishes or teaches you this. This is something you painstakingly google to be a "le smart player" for no real reason. The game never expects you to play using this knowledge.
You still have a preconception that if the pokemon's tag is "venusaur" and it looks similar enough it has to adhere to the "rules" set by the main games of your exact definition of what a legal venusaur is. Well tough shit because this is a romhack and that's some other trainer's venusaur and it can do shit that's not on its serebii page and this makes you screech even though every single person in this thread is calling you moronic.
Pokemon were never designed as chess pieces with clear and exact mechanical purpose,maybe you'd have a point if all pokemon had 8 possible moves to choose from. But they're monsties and if you change minor details nobody BUT YOU cares.
Again, I can and will justify anything as long as its fun. As will anyone, because we're not autistic.
>As will anyone, because we're not autistic.
of the first 5 posts aside from OP there were already 2 anons saying this shit looked moronic.
This example LOOKS moronic because of its difficulty and place in the game, not because the pokemon have moves they shouldn't have. People who actually played Unbound gave context that OP withheld to get that specific reaction.
Also Ganker is negative and filled with autists as a rule.
>not because the pokemon have moves they shouldn't have
one of the aforementioned 2 posts explicitly cites the moves floette shouldn't have at its level
And someone said that anyone complaining about this just doesn't ever want to lose at pokemon, also within first 5 posts.
Are we using individual Ganker posts to prove public opinion now?
you engaged in argumentum ad populum. I humored you and presented counterexamples. this shouldn't be difficult to understand.
I'm not attacking you for the argument, "two guys on 4chinz" isn't even close to actually being an ad populum argument.
If you were to actually poll this, we both know most people wouldn't take issue with it.
>If you were to actually poll this, we both know most people wouldn't take issue with it.
now this is cope. we both know ppl have a visceral negative reaction to mons having moves they shouldn't have even on relatively shakey grounds like not the trainer in question having access to move tutor moves while you do not. it would be even more negative in the case of literally illegal movesets. don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.
Sorry anon, you're deluded because you only talk about this on Ganker. And you think it's indicative of a fanbase even as small as people who play pokemon romhacks. It's not.
If people really did have such a "visceral negative reaction" then why do hacks even have them? Most pokemon hacks have discord and if people really hated them THAT much then the hate would've broken through the usual ass-licking that goes on even there. They would be changed or toned down.
But they haven't. And they won't. And people will continue to give pokemon moves they don't have and give trainers legendary pokemon too because most people don't care, let alone complain about it.
Because it's a video game. And it being enjoyable and challenging is #1.
>then the hate would've broken through the usual ass-licking that goes on even there
discord is a self-reinforcing platform. if ppl don't like the offerings of a romhack they won't join the server for it just to give feedback. they'll delete the stuff off their machine and move on.
>No everyone hates it but this sentiment somehow never reaches any people who make romhacks and also it only exists on Ganker because no other community of people who actually play video games cares mysteriously
Does it hurt, twisting yourself into a pretzel just to not lose this dumb argument? You could've just said "most people are moronic" and we'd leave it at that.
reddit is down the hall and to the right.
Drayano hacks are still some of the most beloved difficulty hacks and they keep the SOVL of Pokemon. Even inclement emerald, which is probably the only good modern difficulty hack, at least offers you a game without random legendary Pokemon everywhere in the late game (only Groudon/Kyogre against Maxie/Archie which at least makes some sense). Even radical reddit at least lowers the power in the early game, for example Rock Tomb/Bulldoze in the first gym instead of Stone Edge/Rock Slide/EQ. It's still because of radical reddit that most difficulty hacks nowadays are just copy pasted omgon sets with mediocre at best teambuilding.
good thing it's only this way in an optional difficulty that's described as unfair then
>not because the pokemon have moves they shouldn't have
Gloom shouldn't have Apple Acid.
Also being fully EV trained at level 21 and below is deranged.
i love the eternal vague "should", my favorite argument
read
and
or actually play the game before posting
Apple Acid is Appletun's signature move. Gloom shouldn't have it.
to play devil's advocate it's not as if signature moves haven't been given wider distribution in the past. muddy water, leaf blade, and blaze kick were all start exclusives in RSE but received wider distribution in gen 4, no?
It should, because it can learn it in this hack when owned by the player,just like Murkrow can learn Oblivion Wing
>known factor
??????? by whom ????????
by you? are you saying it's okay because you know it????????? wtf is this argument?????
i think he's saying that, in the case of Totem Pokémon, you SEE on screen the stat increase the pokémon gets. Same with Eternamax, you see the form change, so you can assume the stats changed as well. With "illegal" moves, on the contrary, you won't know the pokémon has them until they use them
>you get one turn in battle to "prepare" so it's okay
stupid, by the point you're in a fight with them, you can't do any actual "preparing" or change your strategy meaningfully to counteract it
it's a non-difference, like if all pokemon had anticipation but it instead told you if your opponent had illegal moves would this autist stop complaining?
it's a difference in kind because it's something that will only surprise you once. in all subsequent totem battles you know the mons will have boosted stats. an illegal move can be literally anything the romhacker wants it to be so you can't realistically prepare for it without looking at the romhack's wiki for the movesets in question.
Here, idiot. I'll provide a bit of advice: The main crux of your argument shouldn't be "x should be y" without actually giving a single reason for it.
Actually you did, but they were all shit.
The OP is a pic from a deliberately unfair difficulty setting. It's described to you as such and came at the request of people who have already played the game enough with "fair" rules and want even more challenge, even against general game design conventions. Why does this buttblast you so much?
>Illegal movesets
this type of autism should have you neutered on the spot
>then you're illiterate
I understood your argument, I didn't engage with it because it's not something that actually happens.
I don't know any giga-nerd that knows every possible move of every generation of every pokemon (because he's not using the hack wiki so he can't know what pokemon he'll go against he has to know this for every pokemon), and instantly his enjoyment of the game goes out the window if a pokemon uses a move his carefully crafted strategy that takes in mind 100+ moves didn't account for.
I don't know any because that person doesn't exist and you're making this argument in bad faith.
As for the "moot point" part, you don't seem too smart so I'll try to explain it with simpler words.
Totem pokemon start fights with buffs, which you can't do unless you hack.
Eternatus eternamax is a pokemon you can't get unless you hack.
You still fight them. This is called an "asymmetric fight", because enemies use strategies you don't have access to. This is something that is in most RPG's, and most video games. Symmetrical fights are the exception, actually.
Why do you only complain when trainers have movesets you can't access?
Or closer to the point, why do you want every fight to be symmetrical in a strategy game where your opponent is an idiot that can't utilize resources effectively?
BDSP gave the E4 movesets/IVs/Items ripped from Smogon before postgame and you all called that bad game design
ngl it kinda is, but not for the reason you think. smogon movesets are tailored for very specific metagames. in the absence of that metagame, the moveset becomes significantly less effective.
still mad they gutted flint's weather team and gave his drifblim no way of dealing damage besides fricking will-o-wisp
you could sweep this team with literally any fire type
Comedy and Floette are fairy type, tard. They’ll live any Fire move.
>Comedy
point and laugh at the phoneposter
Fire resists fairy and grass.
Floette phys def is trash tier
>Comedy
>thinking most Fairies can do shit to Fire-types
i'll admit that yeah, i'm "bad", but i'm not going to put in the effort to get good at a style of gameplay that i fundamentally do not enjoy. i'm just here to poke fun at some of the stupid shit people put in romhacks.
i don't even think OP is that bad, like i said in any fire type could handle this and maybe most flying types (yeah weedle has electroweb but weedle is a complete shitmon) it's just really weird.
it looks weird because vanilla pokemon trainers mostly follow the "natural moveset only" rule and they generally suck. if pokemon did what other rpgs do and gave all opponents better moves and items than you, suddenly the battles are more interesting
those sets look like generic support or hyper offense sets. it's way better than dp's e4, but i guess anything remotely good qualifies as "ripped from smogon" now
>if pokemon did what other rpgs do and gave all opponents better moves and items than you
what are these phantom rpgs in your head? care to enlighten us?
Literally all of them. Imagine complaining about a boss in something like FF not having the same stats and moves as you. What a moronic argument.
as someone that plays a lot of rpgs(srpgs & trpgs especially), allow me to be perfectly candid with you: you're talking out of your ass. I played many mainline final fantasy games. bosses aren't going to drop elixers on themselves.
I've played fft and many of the fire emblem games. enemies aren't going to be rolling up on you with lord exclusive weapons like the rapier. that alchemist across the map isn't going to pop a eureka crystal. nearly every enemy you fight in fire emblem is going to be categorically worse than their allied equivalent. that mage on the fort is categorically worse than your mage. that myrmidon over there is categorically worse than your myrmidon. the difficulty in fire emblem and fft doesn't come from the games throwing moronic stat checks at you. it comes from the way the map is the laid out, what special abilities your enemies have access to, where on the map they're specifically played, and what secondary objective(if any) you're trying to fulfill.
I've played valkyria chronicles. enemy units are almost always categorically worse than your units. their stats are worse, their aim is worse, their gear is worse, and they don't have access to personal potentials(for the most part). the difficulty in these games comes from being outnumbered, having limited information & vision, and being under time constraints.
I've played brigandine. depending on what country to pick to start out your A team will be strictly better than your enemies' A teams. classes and monster units(aside from a few exceptions) are also universal in that game so the idea of an "illegal set" hardly even exists.
I've played SMT. the movesets your demons have access to will almost always be categorically better than what opposing demons have due to move/ability inheritance that comes from demon fusion while equivalent enemy demons tend to be limited by their natural learnset. in some scenarios, the bosses you fight you'll get as playables later too.
ran into char limit before I could make my last point. so I'll just post it here.
this platitude about rpg difficulty is a fiction concocted in the minds of demented morons trying to justify shit balance. the people parroting this worthless crap don't play rpgs themselves. they just heard some moron on youtube or twitter or wherever the frick say it once and they took that dumb shit at face value. stop propagating this ill-informed stupidity.
By your own admission difficulty in RPGs comes from the enemies having 'special abilities' and units on the map being laid out in ways that disadvantages the player.
... how on earth does that, in your mind, mean that opponent teams in Pokemon should designed to have the exact same moves and abilities available to them as the player?
abilities in the context of fire emblem and fft are universal mechanics. all units have access to them(beyond personal skills which are player exclusives). that's what that section was referring to. the limitations come from opportunity cost, which isn't far off from the nature of movesets limitations in pokemon as you can only have 4 moves. enemies breaking this rule would be quite egregious.
>and units on the map being laid out in ways that disadvantages the player.
as an addendum this is no different from your rival picking the starter yours is weak to.
your game design philosophy doesn't match with that of a difficulty romhack creator's. the vanilla games already do what you're describing when your mons get EVs and you battle low IV trainers. those hacks are designed to push the limit of what you can accomplish with the in-game resources you're given, and obviously that's not for everyone
additionally, the trainers can do a lot of things that would be more egregious than using some stronger moves. infinite pp? constant item spam? AI that moves after you do? all things coincidentally in vanilla gen 1, but were neutered by the trainers' terrible movesets
>poster count remains the same
I fail to see the relevance of this last minute red herring. A claim was made. I demonstrated it was flagrantly false. A deluge of nothing but idle cope followed.
Great cope. Anyway, feel free to post the next RR HC shitpost thread, OP.
Oh man... Anon, please you're embarrassing yourself.
So, you've finished comparing random enemies to your own characters... Now do bosses. How many bosses are "categorically worse" than what you have as a player?
>How many bosses are "categorically worse" than what you have as a player?
damn you're really just not gonna let this shit go until I start kneeling on your neck, huh? alright then.
moron-kun, meet groznyi and marcus. groznyi is the boss of the first map of eliwood's tale in fire emblem: the blazing sword. marcus is a unit you start out with in from the first map in eliwood's tale.
>a jagen
Now you're just being disingenuous.
>it looks weird because vanilla pokemon trainers mostly follow the "natural moveset only" rule and they generally suck.
i think they generally are fine
you’re in a thread where half the population has a crippling phobia of opposing teams where they require literally any basic strategy to beat, even if it’s as simple as “use mons with type advantages”
you're strawmanning because you don't have an argument
like clockwork
>you are x
>i'm not x
>heh...exactly as predicted
you literally get access to easy ev training in the same town as this gym
>moonblast and petal blizzard on a level 19 floette
>a fricking level 17 weedle
>with electroweb
>two pokemon with leftovers because designing sets is haaarrrrd
wat r u doin Black person
the weedle is there because it's over
yet another thread proving how bad /vp/ is at pokemon
"mad because bad" is cope
making this thread is cope
cope
You got it backwards. "I can't handle this level of difficulty, hence it is not real difficulty and is bad game design" is textbook cope.
i like birds.
oh no no no he's comparing pokemon to games where you have a predetermined party
the mindset behind difficulty hacks is not inspired by other rpgs. it's inspired by skill-based games. fighting games, shooters, what have you. enemies in those games are stronger because you're supposed to outmaneuver them, counter them, avoid their attacks.
you cannot do any of this in pokemon. you're locked in by the turn-based combat. damage and accuracy are decided by numbers and dice rolls. you're forced to be on the same playing field as your opponent. so, your opponent needs to be on the same playing field as you. and it's not like this is an absolute rule. an underleveled evolution here or a special move there is fine. but it's gotta stay within reason.
>fighting games, shooters, what have you. enemies in those games are stronger because you're supposed to outmaneuver them, counter them, avoid their attacks.
>tell me you don't play fighting games without telling me you don't play fighting games: the post.
>tell me you play shooters without telling me you don't play shooters: the post.
please stop embarrassing yourself with this moronic cope.
my favorite part about fighting games is when i attack my opponent and then i stop and wait for them to attack me before i move again
Anon, you don't have the slightest farthing of what makes something strong within the context of a fighting game. Heed my good council and stop posting so as to not to embarrass yourself further.
Difficulty romhacks were a mistake
I'd rather play Snakewood a hundred times than play a meme difficulty hack made for redditors and poketubers just so they can claim to be good at the game (despite cheating in rare candies and too scared to actually play comp)
>AI isn't smart enough to plan out switching and pivots etc
>they are given a moveset and item
>autismos lose their fricking minds over this
The only autismo losing their mind right now is the RPGgay who thinks some special snowflake moves in a boss fight breaks the game. This fight specifically is just the first gym of Unbound on Insane mode, which gives you a ton of options and tools you wouldn't normally find in Pokemon to make it free.
>we should do this because it's normal in other rpgs and only ppl that exclusively play pokemon would complain about this
[...]
those sets look like generic support or hyper offense sets. it's way better than dp's e4, but i guess anything remotely good qualifies as "ripped from smogon" now
>this claim is proven to be absolutely and unequivocally false
as someone that plays a lot of rpgs(srpgs & trpgs especially), allow me to be perfectly candid with you: you're talking out of your ass. I played many mainline final fantasy games. bosses aren't going to drop elixers on themselves.
I've played fft and many of the fire emblem games. enemies aren't going to be rolling up on you with lord exclusive weapons like the rapier. that alchemist across the map isn't going to pop a eureka crystal. nearly every enemy you fight in fire emblem is going to be categorically worse than their allied equivalent. that mage on the fort is categorically worse than your mage. that myrmidon over there is categorically worse than your myrmidon. the difficulty in fire emblem and fft doesn't come from the games throwing moronic stat checks at you. it comes from the way the map is the laid out, what special abilities your enemies have access to, where on the map they're specifically played, and what secondary objective(if any) you're trying to fulfill.
I've played valkyria chronicles. enemy units are almost always categorically worse than your units. their stats are worse, their aim is worse, their gear is worse, and they don't have access to personal potentials(for the most part). the difficulty in these games comes from being outnumbered, having limited information & vision, and being under time constraints.
I've played brigandine. depending on what country to pick to start out your A team will be strictly better than your enemies' A teams. classes and monster units(aside from a few exceptions) are also universal in that game so the idea of an "illegal set" hardly even exists.
I've played SMT. the movesets your demons have access to will almost always be categorically better than what opposing demons have due to move/ability inheritance that comes from demon fusion while equivalent enemy demons tend to be limited by their natural learnset. in some scenarios, the bosses you fight you'll get as playables later too.
>m-muh rpggay autismo
>poster count doesn't even go up
make up your damn mind. buffoons in favor of moronic sets like these brought rpgs into the argument and thought they could get away with lying to ppl that don't know any better. I simply revealed the truth.
I'm
. I advise you to play Unbound before saying more moronic shit. Goodbye.
going by these sets it's not worth my time. and your post isn't worth giving a (you). good day, sir.
The game is extremely unfair in favor of the player though lack of intelligent AI
Unbounds Insane mode is made for people that have finished Unbounds Expert Mode.
Its made to be unfair
for reference here is what the vanilla team looks like
And for anyone thats wondering
Steel types shit on this gym
and there are just a large variety of steel types available before the first gym, including your starter if you prefer
Its also meant to be used with Unbounds Sandbox mode, a feature in which you have full customization over any pokemon you catch, from their Abilities, Moveset, EVs and IVs
Insane difficulty is balanced around the player being at a massive advantage over the opponent
Fire and flying types do well too. Even in a HC nuzlocke this fight is always free.
TL;DR you're all homosexuals and Clover is the worst designed romhack
these people don't know a damn thing about game design other than "more difficulter=more betterer"